Polygreens Podcast

047: Microgreens Edition

October 22, 2021 Joe Swartz & Nick Greens Season 1 Episode 47
Polygreens Podcast
047: Microgreens Edition
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode Nick Greens interviews Garfield Produce head grow Shanquell London, Simple Greens Co Josh Peckler and Emerald Gardens Roberto Meza, about the microgreens industry.

Support the show

All right. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us today on this Friday morning, um, Joe Schwartz is doing a workshop at, I am hydro, so I'm filling in for him. My name is Roberto messa. I'm with Emerald gardens and I have here, uh, Josh peclar from simple greens. Uh, shanquila London from Garfield produce and your one and only Nick greens of the poly greens podcast.

Welcome. Hey everybody, how's it going? Yeah, I thought that I would bring everybody together so we can do another episode of the, of, of the microgreen edition here on poly greens podcast. Um, Joe Swartz is doing, uh, some training over in California. Hey, Joe, what's up. What's going on, Joe? Um, so yeah, let's, let's get this going.

So I think that the, the one big thing that I, that I really wanted to talk about was home delivery service and, and how important that is to, to accompany, right? Like, You know what I mean? Rushed, arounds and distributors and, and, and, and all of the other sales is good, but home dish, home delivery service has been around for quite some time.

It's not something new, it's not a new avenue of marketing. Um, it's just something that everybody just found. That's more valuable for their company. Now, um, I know a company out in New York that's been doing it since, I dunno, maybe the last 15 years home deliveries. And that business is just doing amazing.

Um, you know, they're doing solid mix solids home delivery, subscription service. I mean, I think that's the way of the future. I mean, w what do you think of that Roberto are used tapping into the home delivery service at all, or looking into that? Yeah, definitely. Ever since the pandemic, um, home delivery services has spiked.

Lots of people just want the convenience of getting their food the same way that they get their products from Amazon or other delivery services. Right? So that's the norm right now is that, you know, as much as we enjoy the convenience of, of getting our food and our produce and our products, um, you know, if we go down the street to have it delivered.

I think it alleviates a lot of issues in terms of, um, you know, dealing with a pandemic and being in a big crowded store. So, you know, I think it definitely is worth it to explore, especially if you're growing food for people. Correct? Correct. Correct. That is, I mean, that's what we started off with. Right. I mean, I know that's the reason why I started off because I want it to grow for chefs and chefs are.

You know, so, I mean, it's it's and when you see a chef getting happy with your greens, or you see a person getting happy, eating your greens. Yeah. It's just something that does to you inside. So is that something that used for focusing on at Garfield produce right now? Uh, uh Shanekwa is any end delivery service.

Um, not any home delivery services right now, but, um, that's something I do think that I'm focused on and I, and yeah, and that's something that me and shrink caller are going to start really focusing on as you know, helping out with that end, you know, helping out with the delivery service at Garfield produce.

Um, and, and it is important. It is important to have a connection with your, with, with the people, you know, I mean, yeah, it's cool to go through other services, but when you have a connection to the people, you really know what they want. You can get immediately feedback, you know? So I think as far, and then right now we've got Josh on the line.

Josh is Josh is starting the microgreens business and the north shores of Chicago and, and his whole thing is focused on specifically doing live microgreens home delivery service. Yeah. So, um, we are an, my team is trying to, we're still in the process of, um, we just ordered seeds recently. We're going between ordering five pounds and 25 pounds.

And, uh, Nick kind of helped us decide to go to 25 pounds and he explained to us why. Um, and it's just, uh, It was like, there's a shortage, not shortage of seats, but there could be a shortage of seeds. There's shortage of supplies everywhere. So it was just a more convenient way and a more long-term thinking, um, which is why my team purchased the 25 pound seeds.

Uh, we're going to be, uh, we're planning to make a mix. Uh, like Nick was talking about we're planning to make, uh, uh, a three C type mix of four, but it's mostly three C type mix. And yeah, definitely the home delivery it's, it's looking more and more promising as we don't believe. Um, anyone is using live microgreens plus the home delivery in our area.

So it's a cool market that we're tackling and what's going on with the supply and demand right now. I mean, the supply chain is. Bonkers right now. And it's going to be bonkers for who knows a year or two. Like we, you know, they're talking, there's no time soon that they're going to fix the supply chain.

So I think this is a great opportunity for you guys to bust in the market. I mean, do you have any comments on that? Yeah. So, you know, in our setup, uh, we started Emerald gardens, uh, to do the restaurants, farmers, markets, grocery stores, and direct to consumer. And, you know, during the pandemic, we lost a lot of sales when, um, supply chains were disrupted and even some of our major grocery store partners went bankrupt.

So that took out a lot of, a lot of our sales. We had to integrate. And we started working with food pantry. Thus the Genesis of east Denver food hub. We realized that we had two disconnected ends in the supply, the local food supply we had on the one hand farmers that were struggling. And on the other hand, communities that were underserved.

That had struggles accessing food. Um, and so this is pre pandemic, correct? Well, this has always been an issue, but the pandemic just highlighted these patterns. Right. So when we started working with. With food pantries, you know, it just became very clear that we needed to structure another organization, an intermediary that was able to address the logistics, the aggregation and distribution of local food to equitably, distribute it through our communities and develop partnerships and also insights into.

Developing resilient supply chains. So this entire movement to address both the production and the distribution of food through partnerships and cooperative arrangements really proved to be successful. Now, my partner, David  is. Maintaining the farm operations, as I'm trying to structure this, um, local food supply chain, but based on a very specific set of values, right?

Because of what we've learned, we can't just kind of turn a blind eye to the issues that were there from the very beginning. So what we're doing is creating a value chain, a different way to look at food from the perspective of values, um, specifically around, um, fair pricing for farmers. Um, stewarding of natural resources, animal welfare, all these different things that we really would love to see in our communities.

And the only way to actually support the transformation of the food system is to actually do it. So we partnered up with a local mile distributor who is doing the door to door deliveries while we do the kind of first mile aggregating. And that's one of how we've been scaling this. Okay. So you're so, so what you're saying is it's not just microgreens user selling.

I mean, you've got honey, you've got, you've got all the local farmers. So the farmers come to you and drop off. Are they the distributors going to pick up, how does that work? So depending on where the farmers that they could come to our warehouse in Denver, Or they could go through another cooperative or food hub in their region.

And then that, um, organization brings in, uh, both pallet of food from different farmers. So we kind of create this amazing, like supply chain, but it's so grassroots community centric and producer focused, you know, a lot of the time. Major distributors kind of eclipsed the relationship between their customers and their farmers.

We're trying to strengthen it. Okay. You, you, you said that like one way, so one of your goals is to lower food prices and like lower the agricultural prices. Um, no, no, we're, we're trying to, um, basically. Develop awareness as to the prices of food, right? Um, there's been a devaluing of food, I think from the industrial perspective, that conditions a way of thinking that, you know, for example, we need to feed as many people as possible, as cheaply as possible without understanding the higher cost of that cheap food on the environment, on our communities, on our livestock.

So we're trying to basically say, look. In order for everybody to be valued for agricultural workers to be dignified, we need a, a fair, honorable price for food. You know, already farmers are struggling with very slim margins, you know, so to be able to, you know, purchase food, but understand that you're contributing to a transformation and you're having an impact environmentally.

Culturally socially, economically, you know, that's like the best thing, especially for the newer generations who are very, so like, they're, they're very aware of the values they're discerning consumers and they want to participate in sustainability. Right? So those are the values that we're trying to cater to that no haven't been centered in the past, which has contributed to a lot of things.

And that, and that's that's well needed. I mean, just because, I mean, farmers don't know about how the food chain works. Right. We, we, we don't, I mean, we barely have time. To see, to germinate the harvest. I mean, you don't, you don't have time to do, to get on the phone and make sure that everybody's getting together.

So I liked that you stepped away from the farm for a little bit and started focusing on that aspect. And on that part, you know, that is very noble of you to do that because I mean, you could have just be like, forget that we're just going to monopolize. The microgreen game and just kinda like go from there, you know, so yeah, it's nice to have that, you know, sole responsibility of only growing screens, but then I realized, you know, if we're in food, producing food and food systems, then we need to be much more responsible holistically the entire food ecosystem.

Correct. And I don't want to talk on a note about like basically was Sean quell, you know, Shaniqua. I mean  qual came from, from, from, you know, he didn't come from the same place that we came from. Okay. So for him to be in the same situation as us is, is just incredible. Right. Shank called, do you want to, I don't know if you want to tell your story a little bit, but I mean, you have an awesome, amazing story.

I mean, you know, this, this, this guy, this guy, you know, he was in the streets, you know, like he, he didn't have nobody figure, you know, and he found this program. Do you want, how did you find this program shank? Well, how did that. I found the program through dairies. I found out

this was the old head grower of Garfield produce Cenk while Campbell, just another guy, another guy that I grew up in a. And they use Garfield neighborhood in Chicago with and got, and guys, let me tell you something east Garfield park is, is, is no joke. I mean, when you hear all those murders happening and you hear all that, that's where the bulk of it happens, you know?

Yeah. So we just really come from, you know, tough, tough backgrounds, really, um, running the streets, selling drugs, stuff like that. I found out about windy city harvest through my good friend, uh, Darious, really, really just trying to, you know, um, get a job. But when I got into the program, I started, you know, enjoying growing so much.

What was the, what was the first position that they gave you when you started? What, what, what did they do first? Like what was your first thing when you entered the. So when I entered the program was a corpse it's, um, it's like a 14 week program, of course, program work readiness. They get you ready for jobs, uh, get you, um, up to par with like doing resumes, cover letters and, and, you know, just getting you ready for work, really just trying to set you up, get you, um, they had this thing called like, um, routes to success and they had you doing like, A lot of like, and I'm fighting the kid right now.

It's okay. We understand your game, man. You're being a daddy right now. That's a good thing. And they had us doing a lot of light, um, pretty much. Finding out who, what we could do, what we was about. And if, if we really would like ready for the get out then and do that, that type of work. So not everybody was ready.

Right? Nah, it's like, like my first day it was like a shadow day on the farm site and it was just like, How could we, how could we handle the web or the extreme where the, um, how could we have lives out there? Farming first at first it was just all outdoor farm. I did some, um, opera fun. Exterra I did some, um, Hoop houses and green greenhouses and whose house and times, oh my God, come on, buddy.

Like impactful for you. Like what has kept you farming? What is that one thing that just attracts you so much and inspires you? It's just, um, really what it was that started when I started there, I had. I had a daughter. Right. So I was already like in the, um, in a, in a, in a sense of raising my daughter. So it was like growing, growing.

And, and, and what do you do? Watch it grow from a micro green state all the way to four vegetative. It was just like, it was, it was, so it was so like relevant to real life. So it was like, it was something that I I've seen myself I could do. I was, I was peaceful, you know, I was, it was peaceful for me. It kept me, um, it kept my head like on a straight narrow, like, it kept me from thinking about the streets, like.

Um, my buddies that was out there and things like that. And it also gave me that chance to get to leave work or no, leave a class or anything with those guys and tell my friends and my family members about it. It just kept me in a good state. You know what I mean? Like it kept me going. Right now I'm pretty much the head grow.

I'm like, I probably do a little bit more than just the head grow. I'm like all those running the place,

everything when it, I mean, when it, from the rowing to, you know, um, computer work to, to, um, when it comes to quality and control, um, everything. Pretty much. Um, um, and you've been with them now, how long have you been with them? Um, two and a half years going on three years. So no. And so you've got to remember windy city windy city harvest is a program out of a, um, botanical gardens.

So it's the botanical gardens that hosts this, uh, this program for them. So, I mean, it's, it's a wonderful program and I'm so happy for the program and supported 100%, you know, got a call. What's your favorite microgreen to grow my favorite Michael Green.

It probably gave me the most challenges though. So when it comes to learn, that's, , that's one of their specialties there, Roberto cilantro on trail. Yeah. So good. So we, what a problem that we was having there with the salon troll was like mold and things like that. So I facilitate. Wasn't really like made for the grow micro greens.

So what we did around that was figure out what, what, what could we do best to make that cilantro perform best? So, you know, do to improve the growing. Um, what did I do? We, we, um, we improved the airflow. We put fans all over the room, uh, control the temperature a little bit better. Um, Lord that you made it.

Um, outside it, uh, we just know it just did the nutrients, the amount of nutrients and things like that. 'cause it goes back. It goes back to one size. Doesn't fit all, you know exactly. I was just gonna say in Colorado, like we kind of have the opposite of too, too little humidity, you know, sometimes we have, like, we grow in a greenhouse and in the summertime it gets really, really dry.

I mean, all year it's really dry. So do you just have to add. Well, we use a wet wall to cool it down. And so the wet wall helps with the humidity. Exactly. It has a little humidity and in the winter time, um, everything is closed, right? So it's basically the, the own perspiration of the, of the greens inside that Purdue.

So they're creating their own atmosphere in there, then they're there. Yeah. It's kind of, you know, we, we say it's controlled environment to. But we understand contextually it's in conversation with the climate and the environment over there. So. Roberto, Roberto, do you guys, I know you're having, uh, so, um, before the program kind of start, I know you're bringing in a lot of farmers in, um, into your like business itself.

Um, do you guys just sell microgreens or do you guys go. Uh, we just started growing the rest of the acreage. We started utilizing the rest of the land, but, um, you know, we've mostly been so preoccupied with our greenhouse growing microgreens, um, that we haven't been able to utilize the rest of the acreage.

So what we're doing is creating cooperative partnerships to facilitate land access. For, for farmers that have struggled for so long to start their own operations. That for me is like the vision right. Of resilience of community supported mutual aid between our farming partners. So we're working with spirit of the sun, which is a indigenous.

Based education agroecology organization that is, um, using traditional Hopi, um, kind of agricultural practices that are now being implemented in a one acre test plot. So this year was the first year that we grew corn. We grew tobacco MRN, the three sisters, right. Beans, squash, and, uh, and some other greens as well.

But it's a, it's a, it's a harsh climate, you know, when you said like dealing with weather, I was like, oh yeah, you know, we're on the Eastern Plains. We hardly have any windbreaks it's in. And, and, and when I was out there, I had bought a brand new hat and I was there for, I was there for two months when I came back, that brand new hat was sunburned.

It was bleached. It was, it was, it was just tore up from the sun out. It's rough, man. It definitely is as a harsh place to be, you know, but that builds resilience. That's, that's how we were humbled by the weather. Good to just start, um, this community of farmers that are coming in and trying to help you, like, when did this, how long ago did you start the hub?

Uh, so we started the hub in, it was incubated last year during the pandemic, because like I said, we were about to lose the. And so we needed to, to address other issues. And at the same time, like recuperate some loss of sales. So the sales again. Yeah. The first farm that we launched was Sugarmoon mushrooms and that was, um, a shipping container kind of approach to more mushrooms.

Then a spirit of the sun came out of this past, uh, So we're just getting started, but I'm learning a lot about how to acquire land so that we can replicate the process in other areas, other contexts, and promote that regenerative farming, um, that. That's community rooted that supports, um, community and intergenerational.

How many other, how many other towns are you hitting besides Colorado? I mean, besides Denver, are you in Boulder? Are you in other towns too? We distribute all over the front range. Um, right now we're kind of going as far when. As golden Colorado, which is kind of right at the foothills of the Rockies, uh, we're going up north to like Fort Collins and as far south as, um, like the Denver tech center, but our supply chain extends 200 miles.

Um, east into Kansas and then all the way down to the San Luis valley, uh, the Western slope to get all our fruit. So, you know, it's, it's kinda has this amazing, um, link between the farm, the urban farms, the rural farms, and then the, the communities around them. So it's just blossoming into this beautiful new model that everybody wins.

That's the whole idea of partnership. And you guys, you guys don't have a store, right? Like it's not like all the it's a distribution channel. So you guys, or do you guys sell the stores or is it just direct to consumer? We sell to stores. We also sell to restaurants direct to consumers, and now we're moving into institutions, hospitals, schools, jails, and that's where, you know, the, the incredible, like, um, sense of accountability comes in because those are usually the larger purchases.

More than restaurants. So like, you know, one hospital could have, you know, three to six locations. And so that allows us as a hub to work with farmers of different scales so that there's cooperation rather than competition. And how opening, how open are they to you? Like, I mean, are they welcoming. It is hard, but Colorado has amazing programs like the good food purchasing program, local procurement, Colorado healthcare without harm.

There's a lot of initiatives to help support local food into Institute. If we don't source locally, you know, and we continue to support out of state production, we increase food miles. We don't build our local economies and it's contributing to a lot of other challenges. So one way to remediate that is to source locally and ensure that our farmers here remain viable.

So they themselves don't become, you know, um, food insecure or unable to meet their own financial needs. Well, do you know if these are selling to any institutions or is it mainly distributors are now, um, distributors? We do have a, a grocery store we sell to PLA market. Do you do your own distribution to that store?

Or do you go through a distributor to no, we do our own distribution. They got a truck, they got a truck, they do their own deliveries and stuff. Awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, owning your own distribution is, you know, is important to a certain degree, but it is limited by the capacity of your distribution range, you know, but you know, it's really difficult for us to like, You know, work with a distributor who doesn't allow us to nurture the relationship with the store or the customer, because then we don't know a lot of times some of these distributors are just distributors to other distributors.

So the, so that's the, you know, and they, I mean, they got ahold of their contacts. Contacts are everything in the food industry, you know, Exactly, but it's, it's all about Roberto. Nick. W what are you guys like? You just touched on it, Roberto, but what do you guys mean on how distributors are just distributors are not making connection with the cut.

Do you want the distributor to start talking with the customer? Is that, is that, do they do tell the story to the customer? They do get the story to the customer. I think what he was saying is he doesn't have the relationship with the end user. Exactly. Like we don't know where our microgreens go once we drop them off to the distributor, you know?

So like on the one hand we have a distributor that delivers all across Colorado and the tri-state area. And then on the other hand, we have our food hub that really works with local communities, local purchasers. Um, and does more like local food advocacy. Right. And that really strengthens the relationship.

Whereas the distributor that we work with, you know, they're so big that like it's impossible to cater to the specific needs of, of farmers and producers. And so that's, you know, you kind of, kind of have to balance both of those, both of those things you said, you said you were selling to jails. Yeah. What are you?

I guess my question is like, why are like, did you see that jails had unhealthy foods? Just like, why are you? Well, there's a, well, there's a lot of jails already that have aquaponic program. They have farming programs. So, so the jails are already getting this there, they get the, what healthy food is for.

Yeah. Well, this was a partnership with Boulder county, um, and, uh, we're working with Aramark because they run the food service for the jails. Um, but this was through a, we call it the Boulder county bean project where a farmer. Was farming on open space in Boulder county, um, and produced about a hundred thousand pounds of beans, regenerative flee, you know, sustainable practices and east Denver food hub acquired those beans.

Half of the beans went to food pantry purchased from us and half of those beans went to. To supply the jails. So, you know, that was just like a wonderful expression of this circular economy that we're trying to promote. And, and I want to address something about Aramark, great job, Aramark. You know, I did something with Aramark a old, long time ago.

I want to say it's about a good lake, maybe four or five years ago. Um, I got Aero-mark at edit. It was a school in Chicago and I got Aero-mark well, Longwood Aero-mark. We got to have the kids grow the girl, the greens in their classroom and get them in their lunch. And that was, that was only happened through Aramark.

We would have not had that happen if it wasn't for arrow marks, I just want. Good job that Aramark is, is totally understands and it's been involved. You know, I agree. You know, I think this might be the first time that regenerativity grown beans have been accessible to our incarcerated community members.

I mean, Aramark made it, made it possible, but the partnership is just amazing. And I'd like to see more of that. Correct? Correct. And you, I think we will. I mean, especially what's going on now. I mean, we need, we need to enhance our local food. I mean, we, I mean, the, the truck stopped shipping to us. What happens?

Where do we get our food? Yeah, I read somewhere like Denver only has like two or three days of food. If it can't bring in food from other areas, Like crazy lockdown or a catastrophe. We all know. Are you just having a problem in the supermarkets right now with clearing out shelves? Well, you know, it's sparse, some stores like are very, well-stocked a lot of them, you know, are, are sleep stock.

Like they're there you can. So the scarcity is just scattered throughout the yeah. And that's the fragility of large, you know, supply chains, which compared to the smaller supply chains, you know, We're much more nimble and able to turn around distribution and logistics because of the relationships we have.

So one of our customers for example called us and they were like, Hey, our pallet of who didn't show up, can you bring some food? And we're like, all right, let me go see, I'm going to talk to my farmers. And in 24 hours, we mobilized and we brought the food to the community. That's like the resilience of short supply chains that are built on strong social relationships.

It's now is the same problem happened in Chicago. Shanekwa with the supermarkets. Are they clearing out shelves right now? Um, yeah. So you can't find toilet paper and like Mel in eggs. I heard it's hard right now because, um, what's going on in the world and wow. But out of the boats being stuck in water, But it is affecting, but it is affecting.

Yeah. You remember when, uh, um, and demic started and everybody was like buying all the water. That's everything was gone. All the kangaroos are gone, everything. Yes. It's not like that, but that's what they're limiting how much you take. Right. You can't take like crazy amount of water or anything, and it can't be walking out of that with a car full of cases of water.

Well, I got, I got a two end question. Um, so what is your biggest market right now? And then next question is what do you want to, or what are you focusing on? Like, what is your next goal at hand? Um, um, I, I would biggest market at Garfield produce right now is probably a distributor, um, get fresh. And right now when I'm at work, what I'm working on is, is trying to, um, be more successful in agriculture.

Um, become my, my own brand, my own business. You know what I mean? Um, that's really what I wanna do you notion where the distributor takes your products after you dropped? No, I, I don't know. Um, Only one. We do have a, um, I don't know if we, we would call it a distributor was good, whereas people go on a, on a network and they order what they want.

And that's, that's the only like network we have, whereas we know where exactly our microgreen gone. We know exactly who, who is ordering it, putting the order in for. Um, that's like, it's kind of new. So I really know, I can't tell you too much about what's good, but yeah, they order, it's like a website where they go to order and I do see it now, do you see yourself starting a business of like your own microgreens or consultant or what kind of business do you see yourself getting into?

Are you just don't know at the moment, at the moment? I don't know. So I'm really trying to see what. But I'm like naturally just best at good at that's something that's going to naturally come off of what I'm doing and is like, I'm not sure right now. Do you ever be interested in acquiring your own piece of land and starting your own farm?

Is that in your cards? Yeah.

Good friends. Hello like water. Um, that's a big vibe here on the show where it's a, yeah, let's go. I can't even hear, can you say that again? I said, I said, that's good friends on me. Um, and especially the vibe on the show, um, flow like water, wherever the direction takes the least amount of resistance. Is there, that's where you flow to you.

Don't try to flow with the resistance. Cause when you flow to the resistance, you get beat up, you know? Yeah. That's it. I like that philosophy because I like, that's how I feel, you know, definitely not in control. But I'm a steward, you know, I usher that water where it needs and you know, and you know who said that?

Right? That's Bruce Lee. Yeah. That's Bruce Lee's mentality right there. Exactly. No, that's awesome. That's so cool. All right, gentlemen, I think, I think this was good. I think, uh, we, we grasped a lot here and, uh, do you want, do you want any last words, any one of you want to say? Um, it was nice meeting you guys.

I heard. I hope you guys can help me possibly help me figure out, you know, what I want to do more of later on. And I hope I can help you guys, you know, do whatever it is you guys doing. And I think the way with what will me and you doing is like, let's do that show together. Let's start off doing the microgreen show together and, and take it from there.

And you know what? We'll travel everywhere and visit these microgreen farmers and, and show the world what, what the world is. And I'm a learner. So I'll be your number one, viewer. Yeah, me too. Me too. You have any last words to say to anybody out there trying to get into this, uh, Roberto. Um, I mean, it just flow like water, you know, do your own experiments and see where you can carve your own niche and just learn and just remembered one size does not fit all.

There's somebody out there saying buy now right now, you can do this. That one way that he's doing it is probably not a way for you. Like, just because he's having success with it doesn't mean you're going to have success with it. You need to find somebody that's as doing multiple ways and that's, that's not holding on to just one way that that is success there.

Yeah. Yeah. You're doing it for the right reasons. When you take that approach, you know, Hey Josh, you wanna, any, anybody getting into this? You know what you're going through on any words? Yeah, sure. Um, like even though I'm not nearly or anywhere close as successful at these three people that are on right now, like I'm just starting my journey.

Um, one thing that I did notice is that like you have to, so if you're working with a team, um, especially one person, if not every person team has to do. You know, fallen in love or really liked the idea of microgreens and, or plants and what they do for community. Do you like grow like how you like growing them?

So you have to fall in love with the process and not the money in the beginning. It will definitely be a no money game. It will be more of a passion game. Um, so yeah, that's, that's my words of wisdom. You know, you have to fall in love with the game and not. Just the money where the money is important. Of course, for a bit, money's always important for a business, but with the money, just let the money eventually flow.

Thank thank you for that. And thank you everybody for joining. And once again, this was the Pally greens podcast. Thank you everybody.