Creating a brand story is a central part of building your overall brand identity. It’s crucial that your brand story is coherent and resonates with your audience to attract loyal customers.
In this episode, I speak with Tom Marchant, Owner & Co-Founder of luxury travel company Black Tomato. Tom and his co-founders launched their business in 2005 after seeing first-hand how people had such little time to plan their own travel experiences. Since then, Black Tomato has grown exponentially and delights clients all over the world.
Tom shares his advice on how to begin drafting your brand story and what you should and shouldn’t include within it.
Tom’s advice:
If you’d like to contact Tom you can reach him via tom@blacktomato.com
FF&M enables you to own your own PR.
DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason
Host Juliet Fallowfield LinkedIn
Submit a guest via this link
Submit a question for the next guest
Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2023 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.
FF&M recommends:
MUSIC CREDIT Funk Game Loop by Kevin MacLeod. Link & Licence
Creating a brand story is a central part of building your overall brand identity. It’s crucial that your brand story is coherent and resonates with your audience to attract loyal customers.
In this episode, I speak with Tom Marchant, Owner & Co-Founder of luxury travel company Black Tomato. Tom and his co-founders launched their business in 2005 after seeing first-hand how people had such little time to plan their own travel experiences. Since then, Black Tomato has grown exponentially and delights clients all over the world.
Tom shares his advice on how to begin drafting your brand story and what you should and shouldn’t include within it.
Tom’s advice:
If you’d like to contact Tom you can reach him via tom@blacktomato.com
FF&M enables you to own your own PR.
DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason
Host Juliet Fallowfield LinkedIn
Submit a guest via this link
Submit a question for the next guest
Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2023 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.
FF&M recommends:
MUSIC CREDIT Funk Game Loop by Kevin MacLeod. Link & Licence
[00:00:00]
[00:01:00]
Juliet: This season will be about branding. So super excited to chat to you about this, given that you have built one but kick off with, it'd be wonderful if you could start with a brief introduction as to who you are and a bit about the business that you founded.
Tom: Yeah, sure. So my name is Tom Marchant. I'm the co founder of Black Tomato. It's a luxury travel company specialized in putting together what we believe are remarkable travel experiences for people where we take them all over the world. Everything from Immersive trips in wildernesses to beautiful private houses to odysseys through jungles to amazing multi generational family holidays where they're just reconnecting with cultures.
Tom: It's It's all about giving some people something remarkable. And we've got a we've got a team of brilliant people who are curious and passionate about the world and want to showcase it to our clients in that way. So yeah, that's black tomato. We started it in next year, feel old in 2005 in London, myself and my two business partners, James Merritt and Matt Smith
Juliet: So pre [00:02:00] pandemic,
Tom: pre pandemic.
Tom: Yeah, it was pre pandemic and also, but just pre. Recession, which sort of kicked in about two things 2008, which was again a big learning experience. And then, yeah, it's just growing from there. And we now have a lot of people that works in the UK, but also particularly United States.
Tom: That's our core market. We've grown there significantly over the businesses lifetime so far. It actually led to me being based in the US for just over five years. I was in New York and LA between 2013 2019. And I'm still in New York, probably, every five weeks or so. It's a really cool business for us.
Tom: Not on planes as much as I was probably pre pandemic and pre having a family but still on the on the road and up in the skies quite a lot.
Juliet: And for you, given travel is such an emotional, obviously experiential thing for people to book, how important was your brand when you launched it?
Tom: it was everything if I'm honest, I think when we started the company or rather had the idea. [00:03:00] In fact, did you go way back to having the idea for a business, even before we necessarily went for travel, our belief was we wanted to build a brand. And that was because we felt passionately that, if you build a brand that people believe in and feel a connection to, and, have empathy for so much other stuff comes a little bit more easily.
Tom: And so it was, that was right at the front of our minds. When we then were like looking at the travel space. AnD saw the opportunity for what became black tomato. But yeah, since day one, it was, we want to build a brand here. It wasn't like, let's build a business on, we need to brand it. It was like, let's build a brand.
Tom: So from the bottom up, we were always thinking about what we stood for, what we believed in, how we communicate that, how we would establish connection between us and our target audience. And also recognize that would act as a. We hoped a . a guiding light for us because we knew what we stood for and that would take us through good times and bad.
Tom: So yeah,
Juliet: brand values, brand communications, I always joke in the office because we're in communications and [00:04:00] PR and I was like, if we just put the word brand in front of everything, people pay probably three times as much because brand is I find from an external perspective, working with founders, so related to ego, not in a negative way, but it really is your shop front.
Juliet: It is what people understand about your business and it's your visual brand and it's your tone of brand. Everything comes in under this.
Tom: it does, and it's it's your DNA. Ultimately for us it's what defines us and not in a, from an ego point of view it's actually
Tom: how to make it. Yeah. It makes life a bit easier if I'm honest, because we know what we stand for. We regularly reminded the reasons to why we started the company and what we believe in and why you want to keep going and
Juliet: it's your brand vision and mission.
Tom: Yeah, you have to get that right. I believe, and again, this is just
Tom: my personal experience. But if you get that particularly at the start it's your rudder. It gives you a framework to operate within because also in those early startup days, it's very easy.
Tom: Even with a brand focus, it would be still very easy to go down different [00:05:00] roads or down rabbit holes in the pursuit of maybe short-term revenues or something, that , you could do to , keep alive or get ahead. But some of those calls would've eroded what we stood for or trying to achieve.
Tom: And it's difficult because you've gotta get the balance right 'cause you've gotta be alive to do what you wanna achieve. But it was it set the tone, it set the course, and it's it's as important today as it was back then. It's it's a key part of our business and our story.
Juliet: And speaking of story, this episode was going to focus on a brand story. How would you describe a brand story to those that are unsure of what it means? Because there's a lot of hot air when it comes to founding a company.
Tom: Yeah, I think I'd also say, yeah, when it comes to branding and stories, it's, yeah, you could talk for hours on it and hear a multitude of different opinions. For me, the brand story is basically a window into your world and that you are letting people see behind the curtain of the business and allowing them to understand why you do what you do, why you're doing it.
Tom: Why you believe in it[00:06:00] and through that you hope that you'll build connection to that customer. I think I don't know about you, but me personally, I like to understand what's behind the brand I see. I I might see a brand and think, okay, that looks beautiful. The tone of voice is great.
Tom: It's really well executed, but where I really get passionate is when I understand the background, the story and see who's behind it. So a story can involve. It can touch upon many points from who the founders are, how they met, why they chose to do what they do, what were , the, what's the purpose of the business, what are the values they wanted to build the business around?
Tom: What is the product? Why is that different to others? and so it
Juliet: have a more of a kind of touch point to it that's not just
Tom: yeah, it has to be relatable. I think there's also, with lots of, I'm sure lots of branding agencies, you could come up with so much corporate jargon. And it could still be nothing, right? So for me, it has to be lots of well aware of using lots of kind of cliche marketing words, but it has to feel authentic.
Tom: It has to be you, right? So ultimately your brand story is about like why I'm doing what I'm doing[00:07:00] and that encompasses your purpose, your belief, why you think what you're doing. stands you apart and why someone should use you. And you just hope through doing that. I would always say like in a, our three core, our three values, our company, by the way, are being humble, thoughtful, and curious.
Tom: And so for us, we do it in a humble way. it's not about beating your chest and saying, we're the best. And so you're going to need to use it to say, look, We believe in something, we're passionate about it, and you do it in the hope that someone else will agree and connect and say, okay, I'm going to use these guys.
Tom: I'm going to try them out because I can see that story where they've come from, what their belief is.
Tom: Um,
Juliet: it. Yeah. I was going to ask you why it's so important, but I think you've answered that, but what would you say happens when you get it wrong?
Tom: I think that you get it wrong for me is when you don't believe in it. It's when you're, I think sometimes we've seen, I wouldn't name names, but you can see when some brand stories are trotted out that it's been dreamt up in a boardroom. Because the belief is it will play well to an audience.[00:08:00]
Tom: But actually if it's not true to actually the origin story, or it's not true to the deep down beliefs of the people in that room, it gets seen through quite quickly. I think, to be authentic, you need to be as much as you can be transparent.
Tom: Yeah, you can get it wrong if you don't believe in it. If you also get your tone wrong, which is, think Ego doesn't belong in brand stories. I think you can be confident. You can be assured. But you need to
Tom: just communicate communicate that you're trying to do something that you believe in.
Tom: If you don't if you've got a business, I should also add that even if you don't believe in it, but you think it can be successful, that's great, but don't make up a brand story to, to convey this belief. Because customers see through it, and hold you to account on it as well, your staff, if you're recruiting people against that, if you don't really.
Tom: Act in the way that you are communicating, you should be. Things
Juliet: inconsistency, you lose trust, I think, and for us, aside from hosting a podcast, our day job is teaching founders how to own their own [00:09:00] storytelling and PR. And it's not just customers. Journalists will prod and poke and ask further questions. And you need to have a really robust story behind you.
Juliet: And what's better than it being completely honest and transparent? Because then you stand by and you know the answers.
Tom: I, that's the key thing I'd say. When it's honest and it's you and you know it all that the points you made there about, questions, stuff. It's a lot easier to be to talking about something that is A, it's true, and b, you believe in it.
Tom: I think when it's. If you're creating a story or a brand vision that is within a framework and is, has been for presentation purposes, there's no belief behind it. Then people do get nervous about talking about it because it's what if I have to talk about that?
Juliet: And when someone's thinking about starting developing their brand story, is there a golden piece of advice that you give them to get going? Because it's a long process and I think people need to know that they're never going to know the answer straight off the bat, but just to start,
Tom: I always say, it has to be authentically you
Juliet: did you start
Juliet: sketching stuff
Tom: We actually sat in a room with a friend of mine. he's a [00:10:00] brilliant strategist and we were, we've come from different backgrounds.
Tom: We knew what our brand wants to be, but we just talked and we did a little workshop between the four of us. And, but when we got it down and then it started mapping out. But again, what we were doing was we were just. It's all in our heads. We knew it. It was there. So we were actually just telling the story that had existed.
Tom: So that's the other thing. It goes back to being authentic. Authenticity should mean it's coming from somewhere of truth. And so when you're then putting a story together you're tapping into something that's happened that you believe in. That's true. If you start trying to create different narratives, that don't reflect what's happened or what you believe in or who you are, that's where you start risking setting yourself up for a fall down the line.
Juliet: I find it really interesting when we chat to founders because it is all in their head, they do know all the answers, but it's trying to get them out of the weeds and pull it out to make sure it's succinct and it's robust and it's clear. And we often say, can you articulate your business in one breath, but then for your brand story, obviously you've got a more of a long form opportunity.
Juliet: Were there any practical tips you could [00:11:00] share on how to get from A to B?
Tom: Yeah. Firstly, to your point, keep it simple. Brand story should not be indulgent. And naval gazing, right? it's
Juliet: By the way, I'm sending this podcast episode to all my future clients about just listen to this and then we'll chat.
Tom: like keep it simple and share what matters. Okay, what you know from a business perspective, and what matters is, as I see it is, what will the customer connected, what are they interested in hearing, I went to I wouldn't say who they are, but I was in the office once , of a unicorn business that everyone knows up in San Francisco and they had their brand story plastered all around the walls.
Tom: And, it was, it looked beautiful and stuff, but it was so indulgent. And and you just thought this is where sort of egos got too far ahead. You've got to work out what it's for. So yeah, it's for us it's keep it simple. Understand what's important to share part of the ego and make sure that it's easy to understand.
Tom: People don't need know. We often talk about how the three of us met traveling, because we did. And I want someone saying, oh, we should talk all about [00:12:00] the trips you did, all that stuff. I was like, I just don't think people need to know that right now. They know that we connected over a lot of travel and that we've done these parts of the world, but a lot of that other stuff. Whilst you might think it's just superfluous when I'm trying to tell someone about the origins of the brand and then what we stand for. So it's keep it simple, be succinct, tell the bits that matter don't indulge and, just bring clarity to it. But you can do clarity also in a really friendly, approachable, welcoming, honest way.
Tom: I think that sometimes people think being clear or succinct falls into a
Tom: really short
Tom: corporate turn of voice. not, it's it's keeping it simple is actually often how people talk to each other.
Juliet: and speaking English, I think a lot of the work we do with people is knowing their audience and knowing what they could resonate and what they want to hear. And often the client's we want to be on Vogue. It's but why does a Vogue reader want to read about you on Vogue? Going to the nth degree and then working backwards, I think is
Tom: I I think it's such a good point about knowing the audience and how what they're interested in, but also how they want to be [00:13:00] spoken to or how you can connect. When we started, our view, one of our views of the travel industry was that it was, in terms of our space, the luxury travel side, but also in other areas, I think it was very formulaic.
Tom: It was, everyone spoke in the same way. And it's terribly cliche, cheesy language describing places in just language. You'd never describe it if you're talking about it with your friends. And, but the kind of industry had just fallen into like trope. So for us, and it's not like it was revelation, but we said that we're just going to talk about.
Tom: ourselves and what we do. This is part of our brand in the way that you talk about it to your friends in the way that you your best friend who lives in that city in the world, who, talked about it. So you talk about it in a way that's passionate, informed, but approachable. And what you get from that is when people start reading that language, the response we got was, Oh God, they're like me.
Tom: This is a people like me. I've been looking for that. I've been maybe using these people [00:14:00] who are all great, but I've never really felt a connection and language, which is at the heart of a brand is such a powerful way of connecting to people. So for us right out the gate, it was, we need to talk in a language.
Tom: That's us firstly, authentically us. But one that will build connection and that people will. Appreciate is the other thing. So yeah understanding your audience what they want, but also how you should be talking to them,
Juliet: you make a really interesting point because in travel, an image speaks a thousand words and travel, I remember Jeremy Jauncey at Beautiful Destinations saying that when he hit Instagram, the finance sector and the travel sector, the least Instagrammable sectors and or were least present on Instagram.
Juliet: And he obviously fixed that with Beautiful Destinations, but it's so interesting to hear that somebody who has. Mastered the travel industry and is clearly successful in that is also putting importance against language. I think a lot of people we meet is all about photography, all about the videography.
Juliet: It's It's the words because the words [00:15:00] feed SEO, but also the words of things that people can relate to and last
Tom: And yeah, and also it's the words that I think can stand you apart, right? So as travel's become so ubiquitous within, social media platforms. It can get increasingly hard to differentiate, based on what you do, what you should stand for based on an image, because everyone's got the image, always treating it or doing certain ways.
Tom: And in the days of brochures, and we've never done a brochure, but back in the day, everyone would be using the same imagery. And actually, Ben, if you put your hand over the logo and then you read the copy, you could not tell them apart. They're all saying the same things.
Tom: And so for us, it was like firstly, it could be. Use imagery and videography in a more compelling way and how we develop that content, which I think we do, but also it's like it's the language because that it's where the language is where you can convey your value or your USP or why use us.
Tom: And that's also where you can build relationship in terms of on a emotional level and a psychological level because you're talking a language they recognize. I think when we yeah when we also [00:16:00] came into it I remember being sat on the tube one day, looking at a place, it was an advert for a destination.
Tom: And I knew the destination and it's an amazing place, but the people who put that advert together had seemed to have done the best job in the world of making it look terrible and sound rubbish from the language they were using and the generic stock imagery they were using. And so for me, it was this irony that in travel, like we have literally the world to play with of all these stunning, beautiful assets, but these places that create these amazing experiences and feelings within you.
Tom: And it was our job to articulate particularly how it was going to make you feel. And so for us, when we came at travel, it was about the pursuit of feeling. It still is. So when we first launched our first website, we never actually listed destinations. We just listed, we categorized things according to feelings.
Tom: So how places are going to mix it. If you're looking to feel this is it. And how it was slightly radical in the days because Yeah, no, no one did it that way. it wasn't great for SEO wasn't as a bigger thing. so [00:17:00] now we have, a blend of destination feelings, but that's at the heart and what's one of those powerful ways of conveying a feeling it's language.
Tom: yeah. And again, a great way to differentiate yourself.
Juliet: So when you guys were putting pen to paper, how long did it take until you have something that you were happy with? Or is it constantly evolving,
Tom: think it's honestly, I think it's constantly evolving. I don't think it was like
Tom: we need to have, sorry, there were things like we need to have this in place by then, because we're launching website. We need people to understand what we are. But in terms of a one and done, and then we move on, it was never that way.
Tom: We know there were principles upon which we based our brand. And, our brand story then was just beginning. Yeah. There was a story in terms of how we met, what we believed in, why we were doing this. And why we want people to believe in it like we did, but that's the start, right?
Tom: And so then your brand story keeps building , as you grow. So that could involve in multiple things in terms of how you are developing products, how you are connected with customers, things you may have achieved, not an ego thing, but things that demonstrate why, what you [00:18:00] do. resonates. So it was, it's always been good.
Tom: The story is always evolving. The principles need to be in place. But I think from to get back to your question, if you think from first point of we need to articulate. who we are and what we've done to having it ready. I don't know, it's probably a couple of weeks, just back and forth, sitting with things, get something down, walk away from it, come back a day later, look at it, tweak it, and then, but then also don't be a slave to perfection on this stuff.
Tom: When you're in startup mode, having something that you're 90 percent happy with, it's probably going to be 110 percent for someone reading it.
Juliet: And in startup,
Juliet: startup years, it's like dog years, a week is like a year and everything can change. So
Tom: takes, honestly, it honestly can, I, seen startups, maybe doing startups who, I'll see them and I'll see them in a month later. How are you getting on? I'm still working on just this thing. I've got to tweak. And I was like, I think what you need doing is trying to get some business and what got is fine.
Tom: and you can then, you can iterate, you can change, not like I'm saying, I'm not saying I pivot drastically, but it just, you've got to get the [00:19:00] balance right.
Juliet: And I think all copywriting, if you live with it for a little while, sleep on it. And I was going to ask, did you throw it out to other people to sense check it on other people?
Tom: Yeah, in the early days We wrote it all, and then, yeah, we put it in front of people to say, and that, that's a big thing, it is sense checking beyond, yourself or your founding partners. And I think sense checking on lots of things is crucial, not to to the point where it might distract you and put you off, cause you believe it's got to carry you through to a degree, but yeah, we would sense check it.
Tom: I put it in front of people and say, there's this, it's, We're doing it like this. And, we've got this overwhelming response of that's exactly how I want to be talked to or spoken to, or that's, the way you're described, also the way you're describing what travel means or should mean to people, but again, this pursuit of feeling people just said, yeah, that's a really refreshing take on it.
Tom: And what, why hasn't someone talked about it like that before? Or why hasn't someone not just talked about it, but created experiences that would deliver these feelings before rather than people saying, Oh, I went there and then this happened and it [00:20:00] was great. Rather go, why don't you go to find this thing?
Tom: And it's in that place that lead with the experience.
Juliet: And if someone's struggling to get their brand story down, what advice would you give them to get started?
Tom: Stream of consciousness is good. just write it down. Don't think about structure and. Even though we've talked earlier about brevity. Just get something down. just write it like you'd be writing in a diary or home. Don't even think about tone of voice. just
Tom: put down what your story is.
Tom: Get it out of your head and then come back. And then, and look, and also You know, there's lots of people who aren't copywriters who want this. You're critical. So that's when, go to your network, speak to someone. There's lots of great like freelance brand strategists, and great companies like yours who can help people, take that and turn it into something that's meaningful and that will resonate.
Tom: And so I think sometimes with brand, it can feel overwhelming to people because it's like you said earlier, like brand is this.
Tom: Grand
Juliet: think it needs to be finished. Yeah. It's
Tom: And when people talk about brands, it's like often like [00:21:00] huge brands and it's, and it seemed what is it? Yeah, it's not finished, but just get something down and come back to it and refine it.
Tom: but don't overthink it.
Tom: that's the other thing. Don't overthink it.
Juliet: And just get going. A lot of people get busy thinking, and I think a lot of people can be distracted. They're like I'm just, I need to spend all this time on this. It's you're avoiding the thing that you actually need to go and do. And brand, I think can be one of those things that you're not ready yet.
Juliet: It's
Tom: yeah, I,
Juliet: go.
Tom: times I've heard that, we're not ready yet. It's I think you are, I think you are, yeah, that's the other thing. Yeah, no one's looking, everyone's I remember when we started, Black Tomato, there was yeah, we got the site ready and the last I think the last four days we just were in the office and sleep and they're getting it done because there's a deadline because there was some press coming out and we eventually got it live.
Tom: Thank God because we're going to be overwhelmed, and you know this piece of press came out.
Juliet: Strong launch
Tom: Yeah, but it was included, we got to know one of the, one of the editors there and he included us in this kind of roundup, but it was their middle of the year issue, so it was really thick, [00:22:00] and it was a small mention, but it was a mention in GQ the same. And we thought, wow, we are going to be apps.
Tom: It is the website going to crash. It was, and and I think the only phone call we got, like in the next few days of someone trying to sell us advertising space, so it's even that was quite a quite a good lesson to go look, you can just crack on and also you've got to, you've got to push off,
Tom: you can.
Juliet: there's something about, I think I found putting stuff out there and knowing that other people will maybe see it eventually, you, I don't know, you, I'm not articulating this at all well. You see it how other people see it faster and then you know how to fix it rather than sit on it, try and make it perfect in your bubble.
Juliet: It's almost like you have to put it out into the public to then go, Oh God, I've completely missed that obvious thing. I can quickly change it.
Tom: you definitely, you have to. And I think that the other thing is obviously it is, I think that's one of the big things when you're starting a business, is it. The bit about putting out there is it's the most nerve wracking bit, right? Because, it's something that , you really believe in.
Tom: You're really passionate [00:23:00] about you, in the back of your mind, even though you've spoken to people, which must quite often, that's still a relatively small network. So it's the first time where you're effectively putting your head above the parapet and going, this is us. What do you think?
Tom: Have you built your launch strategy? And it is a bit intimidating because, you have those doubts everyone has my what if they don't, and we were lucky that people did like it but at the same time we definitely got people going on, whatever. Yeah, and that's when it made you move into the, you've got to be thick skinned,
Tom: you can't be. don't be too precious about things, or, let that one go. Listen to that person, but just ignore that. So yeah it's like the final step, isn't it? It's not the final step, but it's like the final step of properly launching. When you press go live on your site or you launch a campaign and you're really, You're exposing yourself along with your brand story for everyone to come and have a good look at you.
Tom: And you hopefully most people are positive and saying good for you. I like what you're doing. I see that you're trying and it's really great. But at the same time, we also know in the world we live in, that's not always the case [00:24:00] and you can get tall poppy syndrome, you get lots of stuff.
Tom: But that's where you got to just keep on
Juliet: Oh, I found recently we got we're three and a half years in. we got B Corp certified in September and the B Corp backlash, I was not expecting. I was like, Oh God, I thought I'd done a really good thing. And a lot of people like, Oh, why would you bother? Why that certificate? I was like, I know I've done the right thing here.
Juliet: So that I'll dial down the volume on that criticism.
Tom: that's it. like where you just got to be, Just goes back to what you believe in and, that,
Juliet: your brand, your
Tom: feel like,
Juliet: you've thought about it and you're steadfast in that value. It will bolster you in those dark days where you're like, what am I doing this
Tom: that's it. And also, you know that you're not always, you don't have to be for everyone. And
Juliet: you
Tom: it's it's just recognizing that's it. So you, so it's those things. And yeah, we've done countless things over the years launches of new products or partnerships and you're always going to get some dissenting voices because sadly, that is just the way it is.
Tom: And everyone has their opinion, but it's, you just make sure you listen to the ones that count. I think.
Juliet: Big question. Why did you call it Black Tomato?[00:25:00]
Tom: That was from travels be taken. After after university I ended up randomly working in Moscow for a little bit. It was, I was working in London in internship and they, the company was working for us. I wanted to go and help out on a project they were doing in Russia. And, I was.
Tom: Just wide eyed and wanted to travel all the time. So I said, great. So went there for a bit, got to know Russia, then went off and was doing other traveling with my partners. And then when we came back to London, working the jobs, we just, we still had this connection to Russia. So we'd go to Moscow every now and then.
Tom: And it was when we were in a restaurant in Moscow it was a Ukrainian restaurant, actually, which is. really sad actually when you think about it. But the black tomatoes on the menu, and we said what's what's a black tomato? And we had a very impassioned speech from a waiter saying it's this rare form of fruit, but when you find it, it tastes amazing.
Tom: And that just stuck in our heads that We wanted to be the Black Tomato Travels, offering these rare quality experiences. And, [00:26:00] and it was an experience that we had together at Tatar Travels. I think a lot of people thought we just had a bucket of colours and a bucket of fruit and vegetables and just picked out the ones that, that seemed to be less, least weird.
Tom: But no, there was, is
Juliet: a proper
Tom: behind There is a behind it, yeah, which actually It was funny when we started the company, this is probably not the best advice on how to spend your money, but we thought it was great at the time. We got these business cards and On the business card on one side, we had the story about why black tomato, but it was covered in this pink ink, which was heat sensitive.
Tom: So when you rub the card, the story would emerge. And so it was, it looked cool and, but they were expensive, but it was just a real talking point. So we give cards, they write a name, you rub the card and the thing would appear. And it was funny because I think then a year later when we came to do business cards again, we're like we're going to probably not spend that much.
Tom: But so we'd hand out these business cards and it just had the name and the pink thing on the back. And you'd see people there to rub in this [00:27:00] pink stuff and it were like, it's not, he said, but but we really, yeah, we wanted to yeah, put the put the story out there, explain them who we are and why.
Juliet: huge congratulations on all of your successes. Something that we do with our podcast guests is the guest before has a question for the next guest. However, given your season one of branding, we don't have a question for you, but do you have a question for our next guest?
Tom: And is this on
Juliet: It could be anything as a founder.
Juliet: One friend a few weeks ago asked, what cartoon character would you be if you could, as a founder? Another one was like, what was what do you do when you have those awful days? How do you pull yourself out of the weeds? Anything that might be in your
Tom: I'd be okay.
Tom: So mine, what I always ask is what's been when was the closest moment to when you thought I've got to stop and And what pulled you back from that? And how did you get pulled back from that? So that's, yeah, I talk about that. The [00:28:00] founders, like what's been your moment where you're like, I just can't do this anymore, not because it's just like circumstances, environmental factors like this is the end of the road, and, how did you get out of that?
Juliet: Yeah, brilliant question. Thank you. And I think it's really important that, and this is something that's come through in every single interview I've done. I think we're up to 89. Everyone has said, you are going to have very difficult days like you've never had before. Be okay with that. And I think a lot of people are, I'm going to start a company, I'm going to have limit, limitless holiday.
Juliet: And I'm like, yeah, good luck with that one. so yeah, I think it's really. It, given our audience, our new founders and staff and scale ups to say that's okay to feel like that, and it isn't necessarily the end of the world. So thank you for
Tom: Yeah. No, you got, I think you've also got to it sounds weird. It's difficult in the moment. You've got to embrace that. There's this There's this book that Adam Morgan wrote, the guy wrote eat the big fish called a beautiful constraint. And. The idea that the premises that in tough times in constraints actual beauty can emerge.
Tom: And so it's like [00:29:00] when you're limited by something, how you innovate to get around it, and actually, there's loads of great examples of that. And we talked about that in our company and that's how we think so. You've got to lean into the difficult times and they will be difficult. And when you're in the moment, it will feel like you just, you don't want to do it anymore.
Tom: But if you can see, if you can lift your eyes to the horizon and know and believe that you'll get past it. And we often talk about this phrase that we'll use we'll find a way, if you just have that in your mind, I'll find a way that will get you through those. But yeah, difficult times are part and parcel of it.
Tom: But so if going into, it's going to happen when you first Confronted with one. I think that does separate entrepreneurs from other people. I think When you when you're met with a difficult time, it's whether you embrace the challenge and lean into it. And I don't say I relish those things but I sometimes do find the kind of what we've got our backs to the wall and something and it feels like it's you against the world and I'm going to get through it.
Tom: The satisfaction I get from that in terms of, and we've had that, pandemic, Ash cloud in Iceland in 2010 when the world stopped flying sessions, but it's [00:30:00] just, it's no one else is going to get me out of this. And the satisfaction that you then have. You have With your partners, if your team involved it almost trumps for me sometimes like the, the politics, the awards, the other
Tom: financial performance in terms of satisfaction, because it's,
Juliet: But it's,
Juliet: so much
Tom: separates it. Yeah, yeah. and yeah, it's surviving it and dealing with the stress of it. And that's also what separates it massively from doing a, I wouldn't say regular but just a job. Because that's what comes from owning a business.
Juliet: A question from me actually is how do you manage your stress?
Tom: A few things, a few ways. I think for years, I just thought I just thought what I was obviously stressed, but I just thought that was normal.
Juliet: It's
Tom: I just was, and then it was like, Oh, I think I'm just I try, I tried to combination of reading and exercise. , is that and then trying to find quiet times I, I've flitted in and [00:31:00] out of meditation.
Tom: I'm interested in it, but sometimes it's, you've got to work hard at it and I'm not, I don't think I've cracked it but exercise and reading, and then just distractions. And distractions in terms of whether it's family or doing things. You just gotta give into that.
Tom: Um,
Tom: yeah, you just have to, And it's hard and I think as it never leaves you because when it's yours, not something you can switch off.
Tom: But it's finding things that are like, if you are working out or you are, do this, there's this thing called high rocks, which is this like this competitive
Tom: crossfit thing. So I've started doing that this year with a mate and you train for that. And when you're going and doing that, it's just something that you can shift your attention onto.
Tom: And for the times when you're doing that or training that it just, everything else gets forgotten for a while. And I think that's, so it's, I think it's hard. It'd be hard for me to say I'm just going to go and. sit in a room and . try not to think about it because it won't work. I We talk about this with our holidays.
Tom: So there's this idea, I'm not saying it's wrong, but there's this one notion that the best way to relax a holiday is just to go and lie on a beach in the book. And for some people that [00:32:00] just is not because if you're lying there. And your phone's blowing stuff. It's very hard to switch off.
Tom: So we often talk about challenges in terms of travel. We have a service called get lost where we literally get people lost in environments and they have to explore their way out of it. And they they don't know where they are and they've got, we've got special force people in the background. So they, who can see our clients, they can't see them. It's a challenge. They've got to explore the way out of this environment. It could be over a weekend or 10 days, but it's a physical and mental challenge because you're having to think of the whole time. and actually that mental focus on every step you're taking is actually a form of relaxation everything else that is probably on your mind, at home, at work just falls away because you don't have the.
Tom: brain capacity thinking about it.
Juliet: don't know why, but when you don't think about something, you then come back to it with the answer and I have no idea how that
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Juliet: the running, swimming, hiking, not being on your phone, not having it front and center, there's something so amazing that when you come back to it, you're like, Oh, [00:33:00] actually,
Tom: Yeah. The other thing I'm a big advocate of is just learning something new every year if you can. So we the studies out there show that if you are, if you're trying to learn something new separate to what your work is for your brain, it's, it actually keeps developing your brain, right?
Tom: and So that kind of gives you, additional benefits when you go back to work. And it's this year, I've always loved wine when I travel and stuff, but I always want to know more. So I went and did this wine qualification for three days in a classroom and lots of homework and exams at the end.
Tom: And I loved it, not just because the subject matter, but because I just, Was learning something new? And so at Black Tomato we have a, we have an employee benefit called Curious Courses. So every year we give every member of staff a budget that they can go and spend on any course they want. Nothing to do with travel, could be like learning a language, it could be an instrument or whatever, and we just want people go and learn and do things separately because that again is a distraction, it's just a, it's taking your head out of the workspace it's
Juliet: But they'll come back to
Juliet: the day
Juliet: job more creative as well with better ideas. Yeah. So it benefits [00:34:00] everybody. That's a really good
Juliet: idea.
Tom: is good, yeah.
Juliet: Amazing. Thank you, Tom, so much for your advice. Is there any last golden nugget piece of advice you'd like to offer a founder and starting a company? Could
Juliet: be To any.
Tom: I think, There's two pieces I and I, when I've been asked, this is what I say. And I think about If I'm starting a business, it's usually going to be like, just find something that you really believe in. And what I mean by why I say that because everyone will be like obviously, it's more that you could come up with business ideas or see a business that may on by your spreadsheet that really financially successful, and it might be.
Tom: If you don't really believe in it or don't know it, the first time you hit that barrier because it will happen is where you need that belief to keep you going. Because you're passionate about it. If it's something you've done just because you think it's going to make a load of money, but you don't really care so much for it.
Tom: Yeah. Some people are lucky and that works, but a lot aren't, and then it just falls away. So believe in it. And then the other one is once you've got something and we've touched upon it already, it's just remember that it is. It's you, right? So you are accountable to you. So , it's not a [00:35:00] nine to five.
Tom: It is It can be, but in a good way, all encompassing. if you love it and you believe in it, it won't feel like a job. It'll just feel like you're getting to work on something you're passionate about with the highs and the lows. And when I started the company, my, I mean my father who he was an entrepreneur and built businesses.
Tom: I was saying what was his advice? And he said in those early days, I'm not advocating this long term, but we talked about things like you need to be obsessed with it and in a good way. So it does need to take a priority. And that's can be hard. And certainly we started when we're in our kind of mid to late twenties, and we probably had less responsibilities, no less accountability to others is easier.
Tom: But don't underestimate what you need to put in so if you can be obsessive and then build it and then get to a point where you can have other people and you can build a better work life balance because you need that in the long run. But in those early days. I think we all know people who jumped up great ideas in the pub, and have started it but started at [00:36:00] 11am in the pub and just not really.
Tom: Kept it going. And more often than not, they're not the ones who are still working on it. So
Juliet: His friends in salary, I'm salaried just by a company I started, but his friends in normal jobs, which a lot of founders talk about, he's like, Oh God, you work so hard. You need a break. And it's you just don't get it. You don't get it. And you never will get it. And then someone else said, you're never going to be employed by someone else again, because they know that,
Tom: that's it. I it's, it's really true. And I think also it's just When, say if you're out Because you're always working if people say, Oh you're traveling here or you, because you're only, you're flexible, you can go and do this at this time.
Tom: It's yeah, but I'm always So it's actually, but that's the benefit. When you're in boss, if you can get it done in the right way, yeah, the flexibility is a real perk but don't just don't underestimate it and, say, but if you believe in it it's very easy to obsess over it because something that you love.
Juliet: Fantastic. Thank you, Tom. So much for your time. I really appreciate it.
Juliet: Congratulations. And it just clicks. Thank you for your time today on how to
Tom: Pleasure. Thanks. For having me on.
Juliet: We've had you on our radar for a while, so it's brilliant to [00:37:00] finally chat, and you will be the first episode of our branding season so we're currently in investment, we've done sustainability, we've done health and wellness, which was a bit of a kind of, oh god, I really do need to look after myself.
Tom: It's
Tom: tHat stuff, isn't it?
Juliet: yeah, when someone said sleep, if you don't get enough sleep, you're running the red light on your business, I was like, oh shit.
Tom: I know. I know. Particularly when you're like Often associated with sort of starting businesses is a lack of sleep and it's that, working out effectiveness. Exactly. Exactly.
Juliet: But this season will be about branding. So super excited to chat to you about this, given that you have built one, but kick off with, it'd be wonderful if you could start with a brief introduction as to who you are and a bit about the business that you founded.
Tom: Yeah, sure. So my name is Tom Marchant. I'm the co founder of Black Tomato. It's a luxury travel company specialized in putting together what we believe are remarkable travel experiences for people where we take them all over the world. Everything from Immersive trips in wildernesses to, [00:38:00] beautiful private houses to odysseys through jungles to amazing multi generational family holidays where they're just reconnecting with cultures.
Tom: It's all about kind of giving some people something remarkable. And we've got a we've got a team of brilliant people who are curious and passionate about the world and want to showcase it to our clients in that way. So yeah, that's black tomato. We started it in next year, feel old in 2005 in London, myself and my two business partners, James Merritt and Matt Smith
Juliet: So pre pandemic,
Tom: it was pre pandemic and also, but just pre. Recession, which sort of kicked in about two things 2008, which was again a big learning experience. And then, yeah, it's just growing from there. And we now have a lot of people that works in the UK, but also particularly United States.
Tom: That's our core market. We've grown there significantly over the businesses lifetime so far. It actually led to me being based in the US for just over five years. I was in New York and LA between 2013 2019. And I'm still in New York, [00:39:00] probably, every five weeks or so. It's a really cool business for us.
Tom: So, not on planes as much as I was probably pre pandemic and pre having a family but still on the on the road and up in the skies quite a lot.
Juliet: And for you, given travel is such an emotional, obviously experiential thing for people to book, how important was your brand when you launched it?
Tom: It was it was everything if I'm honest, I think when we started the company or rather had the idea. In fact, did you go way back to having the idea for a business, even before we necessarily went for travel, our belief was we wanted to build a brand. And that was because we felt passionately that, if you build a brand that people believe in and feel a connection to, and, have empathy for so much other stuff comes a little bit more easily.
Tom: And so it was, that was right at the front of our minds. When we then were like looking at the travel space. anD saw the opportunity for what became black tomato. But yeah, since day one, it was, we want to build a brand here. It wasn't like, let's [00:40:00] build a business on, we need to brand it. It was like, let's build a brand.
Tom: So from the bottom up, we were always thinking about what we stood for, what we believed in, how we communicate that, how we would establish connection between us and our target audience. And also recognize that that would act as a. We hoped a, a guiding light for us because we knew what we stood for and that would take us through good times and bad.
Juliet: Your brand values, brand communications, I always joke in the office because we're in communications and PR and I was like, if we just put the word brand in front of everything, people pay probably three times as much because brand is so. I find from an external perspective, working with founders, so related to ego, not in a negative way, but it really is your shop front.
Juliet: It is what people understand about your business and it's your visual brand and it's your tone of brand. Everything comes in under this.
Tom: it does, and for us, it's what defines us and not from an ego point of view, it's actually
Tom: how to make it. Yeah. It makes life a bit easier if I'm honest, because we know what we stand for. We [00:41:00] regularly reminded the reasons to why we started the company and what we believe in and why you want to keep going
Juliet: it's your brand vision and mission.
Tom: Yeah, that you get that you have to get that right. I believe, and again, this is just
Tom: my personal experience. But if you get that right, particularly at the start it just, it's like you say, it's your rudder. It gives you a framework to operate within because also in those early startup days, it's very easy.
Tom: Even with a brand focus, it would be still very easy to go down different. Roads or down rabbit holes in the pursuit of maybe short-term revenues or something, that , you could do to kind of keep alive or get ahead. But some of those calls would've eroded what we stood for or trying to achieve.
Tom: And it's difficult because you've gotta get the balance right 'cause you've gotta be alive to, do what you wanna achieve. But it set the tone, it set the course, and it's as important today as it was back then. it's a key part of our business and our story.
Juliet: And speaking of story, this episode was going to focus on a brand story. How would you describe a brand story to those that aren't, are kind of unsure of what it means? [00:42:00] Because there's a lot of hot air when it comes to founding a company.
Tom: think I'd also say, yeah, when it comes to branding and stories, it's, you could talk for hours on it and hear a multitude of different opinions. For me, the brand story is basically a window into your world and that you are letting people see behind the curtain of the business , and allowing them to understand why you do what you do, why you're doing it.
Tom: Why you believe in it , and through that you hope that you'll build connection to, to that customer. I think I don't know about you, but me personally, I like to understand what's behind the brand I see. I might, I might see a brand and think, okay, that looks beautiful. The tone of voice is great.
Tom: It's really well executed, but where I really get passionate is when I kind of understand the background, the story and see who's behind it. So a story can involve. It can touch upon many points from who the founders are, how they met, why they chose to do what they do, what were , the, what's the purpose of the business, what are the values they wanted to build the business around?
Tom: What is the [00:43:00] product? Why is that different to others? and so it
Juliet: have a more of a kind of touch point to it that's not just
Tom: yeah, it has to be relatable. I think there's also, with lots of, I'm sure lots of branding agencies, you could come up with so much corporate jargon. And it could still be nothing, right? So for me, it has to be lots of well aware of using lots of kind of cliche marketing words, but it has to feel authentic.
Tom: It has to be you, right? So ultimately your brand story is about like why I'm doing what I'm doing and and that encompasses your purpose, your belief, why you think what you're doing. stands you apart and why someone should use you. And you just hope through doing that. Our three values, our company, by the way, are being humble, thoughtful, and curious.
Tom: And so for us, we do it in a humble way. It's, not about beating your chest and saying, we're the best. And so you're going to need to use it to say, look, We believe in something, we're passionate about it, and you do it in the hope that someone else will agree and connect and say, okay, I'm going to use these guys.
Tom: I'm going to try them out because I can see that story where they've [00:44:00] come from, what their belief is.
Tom: Um,
Juliet: it. Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you why it's so important, but I think you've answered that, but what would you say happens when you get it wrong?
Tom: I think that you get it wrong is when you don't believe in it. It's when you're, I think sometimes we've seen, I wouldn't name names, but you can see when some brand stories are trotted out that it's been dreamt up in a boardroom. Because the belief is it will play well to an audience.
Tom: But actually, if it's not true to actually the origin story, or it's not true to the deep down beliefs of the people in that room, it gets seen through quite quickly. I think, to be authentic, you need to be as much as you can be transparent. And I think that's what counts.
Tom: Yeah, you can get it wrong if you don't believe in it. If you also get your tone wrong, which is, I think Ego doesn't belong in brand stories. I think you can be confident. You can be assured. But you need to
Juliet: Well,
Tom: just communicate communicate that you're trying to do something that you believe in.
Tom: I should also add that even if you don't believe in [00:45:00] it, but you think it can be successful, that's great, but don't make up a brand story to, to sort of convey this belief. Because customers see through it, and probably hold you to account on it as, well, your staff, if you're recruiting people against that,
Juliet: inconsistency, you lose trust, I think, and for us, aside from hosting a podcast, our day job is teaching founders how to own their own storytelling and PR. And it's not just customers. Journalists will prod and poke and ask further questions. And you need to have a really robust story behind you.
Juliet: And what's better than it being completely honest and transparent? Because then you stand by and you know the answers.
Tom: Well, that's the key thing I'd say. When it's honest and, and it's you and you know it all that the points you made there about, questions, stuff. It's a lot easier to be to talking about something that is A, it's true, and b, you believe in it.
Tom: If you're creating a story or a brand vision that is within a framework and is, has sort of been for presentation purposes, there's no belief behind it. Then people do get nervous about talking about it because it's like, well, what if I have to talk about that?
Tom: And we haven't thought about that or actually I've never really [00:46:00] considered this iteration. But if you're talking about something that you truly believe in and that you've been at the heart of creating then the ease with which you can handle these questions are not always easy questions, but they're questions nonetheless that people will ask.
Tom: It's much easier because it's you. And, I think we all know if we're talking about something we're passionate about or is inherently us and it's personal, then the questions. Yeah,
Juliet: . And when someone's thinking about starting developing their brand story, is there a golden piece of advice that you give them to get going? Because it's a long process and I think people need to know that they're never going to know the answer straight off the bat, but just to start,
Tom: I always say, like it's, it's about, I've used this word already actually, but it has to be authentically you
Juliet: did you start sort of sketching stuff
Tom: We mean, we actually did was we actually sat in a room with a friend of mine. He's a, brilliant strategist and we were, we've come from different backgrounds.
Tom: We knew what our brand wants to be, but we were just, we just talked and [00:47:00] we did a little workshop between the four of us. And, but when we got it down and then it started mapping out. But again, what we were doing was we were, it's all in our heads. We knew it. It was there. So we were actually just telling the story that had existed.
Tom: So that's the other thing. It goes back to being authentic. Authenticity should mean it's coming from somewhere of truth. And so when you're then putting a story together, you're, tapping into something that's happened that you believe in. That's true. If you start trying to create different narratives, that don't reflect what's happened or what you believe in or who you are, that's where you start risking setting yourself up for a fall down the line.
Juliet: I find it really interesting when we chat to founders because it is all in their head, they do know all the answers, but it's trying to get them out of the weeds and pull it out to make sure it's succinct and it's robust and it's clear. And we often say, can you articulate your business in one breath, but then for your brand story, obviously you've got a more of a long form opportunity.
Juliet: Were there any practical tips you could share on how to get from A to B?
Tom: Yeah. I mean, firstly, [00:48:00] to your point, keep it simple. Brand story should not be indulgent. And kind of naval gazing, right? It's it's
Juliet: By the way, I'm sending this podcast episode to all future clients about just listen to this and then we'll
Juliet: chat.
Tom: like it's keep it simple and share what what matters. Okay, what you know from a business perspective, so, and what matters is, what will the customer connected, what are they interested in hearing, I was in the office once, of a unicorn business that everyone knows up in San Francisco and they had their brand story plastered all around the walls.
Tom: And, it looked beautiful and stuff, but it was so indulgent. And and you just thought this is where sort of egos got too far ahead. You've got to work out what it's for. So yeah, it's for us, it's keep it simple. Understand what's important to share part of the ego and make sure that it's easy to understand.
Tom: People don't need know. We often talk about how the three of us met traveling, because we did. And I want someone saying, oh, we should talk all about the trips you did, all that stuff. I was like, I just don't think people need to know that right now. They know that we connected over a lot [00:49:00] of travel and that we've done these parts of the world, but a lot of that other stuff. kind of superfluous when I'm trying to tell someone about the origins of the brand and then what we stand for. So it's keep it simple, be succinct, tell the bits that matter don't indulge and, and just bring clarity to it. But you can do clarity also in a really friendly, approachable, welcoming, honest way.
Tom: I think that sometimes people think being clear or succinct falls into really short
Tom: corporate not, it's keeping it simple is actually often how people talk to each other.
Juliet: And, speaking English, I think a lot of the work we do with people is knowing their audience and knowing what they want to hear. And often the client's like, we want to be on Vogue. It's like, but why does a Vogue reader want to read about you on Vogue? So. Going to the nth degree and then working backwards,
Tom: I think it's such a good point about knowing the audience and how what they're interested in, but also how they want to be spoken to or how you can connect. So, when we started, our view, one of our views of the travel industry was that it was, in terms of our space, the luxury travel [00:50:00] side, but also in other areas, I think it was very formulaic.
Tom: It was, everyone spoke in the same way. And it's terribly cliche, cheesy language describing places you'd never describe it if you're talking about it with your friends. And, but the kind of industry had just fallen into like trope. So for us, and it's not like it was revelation, but we said that we're just going to talk about.
Tom: ourselves and what we do. This is part of our brand in the way that you talk about it to your friends in the way that your best friend who lives in that city in the world, who, talked about it. So you talk about it in a way that's passionate, informed, but approachable. And what you get from that is when people start reading that language, the response we got was, Oh God, they're like me. , this is a people like me. I've been looking for that. I've been maybe using these people who are all great, but I've never really felt a connection and language, which is at the heart of a, of a brand is such a powerful way of connecting to people. So for us right out the gate, it was, we need to talk in a [00:51:00] language.
Tom: That's us firstly, authentically us. But one that will build connection and that people will. Appreciate is the other thing. So yeah understanding your audience what they want, but also how you should be talking to them,
Juliet: you make a really interesting point because in travel, an image speaks a thousand words and I remember Jeremy Jauncey at Beautiful Destinations saying that when he hit Instagram, the finance sector and the travel sector, the least Instagrammable sectors and or were least present on Instagram.
Juliet: And he obviously fixed that with Beautiful Destinations, but it's so interesting to hear that somebody who has. Mastered the travel industry and is clearly successful in that is also putting importance against language. A lot of people we meet is like all about photography, all about the videography.
Juliet: It's the words because the words feed SEO, but also the words of things that people can relate to and last
Tom: And yeah, and also it's the words that I think can stand you apart, right? So as, as travel's become so ubiquitous within, social media platforms. It can get increasingly [00:52:00] hard to differentiate, based on what you do, what you should stand for based on an image, because everyone's got the image, always treating it or doing certain ways.
Tom: And in the days of brochures, and we've never done a brochure, but back in the day, everyone would kind of be using the same imagery. And actually, Ben, if you put your, put your hand over the logo and then you read the copy, you could not tell them apart. They're all saying the same things.
Tom: And so for us, it was like, well, firstly, it could be. Use imagery and videography in a more compelling way and how we develop that content, which I think we do, but also it's like it's the language because it's where the language is kind of where you can convey your value or your USP or why use us.
Tom: And that's also where you can build relationship in terms of on a emotional level and a psychological level because you're talking a language they recognize. I think when we yeah when we also came into it I remember being sat on the tube one day, looking at a place, it was an advert for a destination.
Tom: And I knew the destination and it's an amazing place, but the people who put that advert together had seemed to have done the best job in the world of making it look [00:53:00] terrible and sound rubbish from the language they were using and the generic stock imagery they were using. So for me, it was this irony that in travel, like we have literally the world to play with of all these stunning, beautiful assets, but these places that create these amazing experiences and feelings within you.
Tom: And it was our job to kind of articulate particularly how it was going to make you feel. And so for us, when we came at travel, it was about the pursuit of feeling. It still is. So when we first launched our first website, we never actually listed destinations. We just listed, we categorized things according to feelings.
Tom: So how places are going to mix it. If you're looking to feel this, this is it. And how it was slightly radical in the days because Yeah, no, no one did it that way. I mean, it wasn't great for SEO SEO wasn't as a bigger thing. so now we have, a blend of destination feelings, but that's at the heart and, and what's one of those powerful ways of conveying a feeling it's language.
Juliet: So when you guys were putting pen to paper, how long did it take until you have something that you were happy with? Or is it constantly evolving, [00:54:00]
Tom: think it's honestly, I think it's constantly evolving. I don't think it was like, right, we need to have, I mean, sorry, there were things like we need to have this in place by then, because we're launching website. We need people to understand what we are. But in terms of kind of a one and done, and then we move on, it was never that way.
Tom: We know there were principles upon which we based our brand. And, our brand story then was just beginning. Yeah. There was a story in terms of how we met, what we believed in, why we were doing this. And why we want people to believe in it like we did, but that's, that's the start, right?
Tom: And so then your brand story keeps building, as you grow. So that could involve in multiple things in terms of how you are developing products, how you are connected with customers, things you may have achieved, not an ego thing, but things that demonstrate why, what you do. resonates. So
Tom: the story is always evolving. The principles need to be in place. But if you think from first point of like, right, we need to articulate. who we are and what we've done to kind of having it ready. I don't know, it's probably a couple of weeks, just back and forth, sitting with things, get something down, walk [00:55:00] away from it, come back a day later, look at it, tweak it, and then, but then also don't be a slave to perfection on this stuff.
Tom: When you're in startup mode, having something that you're 90 percent happy with, it's probably going to be 110 percent for someone reading it.
Juliet: And in startup years, it's like dog years, a week is like a year and everything can change. So
Tom: takes, honestly, it honestly can, I, seen startups, maybe doing startups who, I'll see them and I'll see them in like a month later. How are you getting on? I'm still working on just this thing. I've got to tweak. And I was like, I think what you need doing is trying to get, some business and what got is fine.
Tom: And, you can then iterate, you can change, not like I'm saying, pivot drastically, but it just, you've got to get the balance right.
Juliet: And did you throw it out to other people to sense check it on other people?
Tom: Yeah, I mean, in the early days We wrote it all, and, and then, yeah, we put it in front of people to say, and that, that's a big thing, I mean, it is sense checking beyond, yourself or your founding partners. And I think sense checking on lots of things is, crucial,, not to kind of, to the point where it might distract you and put [00:56:00] you off, cause you believe it's got to carry you through to a degree, but yeah, we would sense check it.
Tom: I put it in front of people and say, We're doing it like this. And, we've got this overwhelming response of that's exactly how I want to be talked to or spoken to, or that's, the way you're described, also the way you're describing what travel means or should mean to people, but again, this pursuit of feeling people just said, yeah, that's a really refreshing take on it.
Tom: And what, why hasn't someone talked about it like that before?
Juliet: And if someone's struggling to get their brand story down, what advice would you give them to get started?
Tom: Stream of consciousness is good. , just write it down. Don't think about structure and. Even though we've talked earlier about brevity. Just get something down. Just, write it like you'd be writing in a diary. Don't even think about tone of voice. put down what your story is.
Tom: Get it out of your head and then come back. And then, and look, and also there's lots of people who aren't copywriters who want this. You're critical. So that's when, go to your network, speak to someone. There's lots of great like freelance brand strategists, and great companies like yours who can kind of help people, take that and turn it into something that's meaningful and that will resonate.
Tom: And so , I think sometimes with [00:57:00] brand, it can feel overwhelming to people because it's like you said earlier, like brand is this.
Tom: Grand
Juliet: think it needs to be finished. Yeah. It's
Tom: And when people talk about brands, it's like often like huge brands and it's, and it kind of seemed like, well, what is it? Yeah, it's not finished, but just get something down and, and come back to it and refine it.
Tom: But, but don't overthink it.
Juliet: A lot of people can be distracted. They're like, well, I'm just, I need to spend all this time on this. It's like, well, you're avoiding the thing that you actually need to go and do. And brand, I think can be one of those things that you're not ready yet.
Juliet: It's like,
Tom: yeah, I,
Juliet: go.
Tom: times I've heard that, we're not ready yet. It's like,
Tom: I think you are, I think you are, yeah, well that's the other thing. Yeah, no one's looking, I mean, everyone's sort of, I remember when we started, Black Tomato, there was yeah, we got the site ready and the last four days we just sort of were in the office and sleep and they're getting it done because there's a deadline because there was some press coming out and we eventually got it live.
Tom: Right, right. Thank God because we're going to be overwhelmed, and you know this piece of press came out.
Juliet: [00:58:00] Strong launch
Tom: Yeah, but well, it was included, in this kind of roundup, but it was their middle of the year issue, so it was really thick, and it was a small mention, but it was a mention in GQ the same. And we thought, wow, we are going to be apps.
Tom: It is the website going to crash. It was, and and I think the only phone call we got, like in the next few days of someone trying to sell us advertising space, so it's like, even that was quite a good lesson to go like, look, you can just crack on
Juliet: I found putting stuff out there and knowing that other people will maybe see it eventually, you see it how other people see it faster and then you know how to fix it rather than sit on it, try and make it perfect in your bubble.
Juliet: It's almost like you have to put it out into the public to then go, Oh God, I've completely missed that obvious thing. I can quickly change it.
Tom: Definitely, you have to. And I think that the other thing, is obviously it is, I think that's one of the big things when you're starting a business, is it. The bit about putting out there is it's the most nerve wracking bit, right? Because, it's something that , you really believe in.
Tom: You're really passionate about in the back of your mind, even though you've spoken to people, which must quite [00:59:00] often, that's still a relatively small network. So it's the first time where you're effectively putting your head above the parapet and going, this is us. What do you think?
Tom: Have you built your launch strategy? And it is a bit intimidating because, you have those doubts everyone has my what if they don't, and we were lucky that people did like it but at the same time we definitely got people going on, whatever. Yeah, and that's when it made you move into the, you've got to be thick skinned,
Tom: don't be too precious about things, or, or let that one go. Listen to that person, but just ignore that. So yeah, it's like the final step, isn't it? It's not the final step, but it's like the final step of properly launching. When you press go live on your site or you launch a campaign and You're exposing yourself along with your brand story for everyone to come and have a good look at you.
Tom: And, you hopefully most people are positive and saying good for you. I like what you're doing. I see that you're trying and it's really great. But at the same time, we also know in the world we live in, that's not always the case and you can get tall poppy syndrome, you get lots of stuff.
Tom: So, but that's where you got to just keep, keep on
Juliet: Oh, I found recently we got B Corp certified in September [01:00:00] and the B Corp backlash, I was not expecting. I was like, Oh God, I thought I'd done a really good thing. And a lot of people like, Oh, why would you bother? Why that certificate? I was like, I know I've done the right thing here.
Juliet: So that I'll dial down the volume on that criticism.
Tom: that's it. like where you just got to be, Just goes back to what you believe in
Juliet: Well, your brand, your
Tom: feel like,
Juliet: you've, thought about it and you're steadfast in that value. It will bolster you in those dark days where you're like, what am I doing this
Tom: that's it. And also, you know that you're not always, you don't have to be for everyone. Right. And it's,
Juliet: Well, you
Tom: it's, it's, just recognizing that's it. So you, so it's those things. And yeah,, we've done countless things over the years launches of new products or partnerships and you're always going to get some dissenting voices because sadly, that is just the way it is.
Tom: And everyone has their opinion, but it's, you just make sure you listen to the ones that count. I think.
Juliet: Well, huge congratulations on all of your successes. Something that we do with our podcast guests is the guest before has a question for the next guest. However, given your season one of branding, we don't have a question for you, but do you have a [01:01:00] question for our next guest?
Tom: So mine, what I always ask is when was the closest moment to when you thought I've got to stop and what pulled you back from that? So that's, yeah, I talk about that. The founders, like what's been your moment where you're like, I just can't do this anymore, not because it's just like circumstances, environmental factors, like, like this is the end of the road, and, and how did you get out of that?
Juliet: , Brilliant question. Thank you. And I think it's really important that, and this is something that's come through in every single interview I've done. I think we're up to 89. Everyone has said, you are going to have very difficult days like you've never had before. Be okay with that. And I think a lot of people are, I'm going to start a company, I'm going to have limitless holiday.
Juliet: And I'm like, yeah, good luck with that one. Given our audience, our new founders and staff and scale ups to say that's okay to feel like that, and it isn't necessarily the end of the world. So thank you for
Tom: Yeah. No, it sounds weird. It's difficult in the moment. You've got to embrace that. There's this book that Adam Morgan wrote, the guy wrote eat the big fish called a beautiful constraint. And. The [01:02:00] idea that the premises that in tough times in constraints actual beauty can emerge.
Tom: Right. And so it's like when you're limited by something, how you innovate to get around it, and actually, there's loads of great examples of that. And we talked about that in our company and that's how we think so. You've got to lean into the difficult times and they will be difficult. And when you're in the moment, it will feel like you just, you don't want to do it anymore.
Tom: But if you can lift your eyes to the horizon and know and believe that you'll get past it. And we often talk about this phrase that we'll use, we'll find a way, like if you just have that in your mind, I'll find a way that will get you through those. But yeah, difficult times are part and parcel of it.
Tom: I think that does separate entrepreneurs from other people. When you're met with a difficult time, it's whether you embrace the challenge and lean into it. I don't say I relish those things but I sometimes do find the kind of what we've got our backs to the wall and something and it feels like it's you against the world and I'm going to get through it.
Tom: The satisfaction I get from that in terms of, and we've had that, pandemic, Ash cloud in Iceland in 2010 when the world stopped flying it's like, no one else is going to get me out of this. [01:03:00] And the satisfaction that you then have. With your partners, if your team involved it almost trumps for me sometimes like the, the politics, the awards, the other
Tom: financial performance in terms of satisfaction, because it's,
Juliet: But it's,
Juliet: so much
Tom: separates it. Yeah, yeah. and yeah, it's surviving it and dealing with the stress of it. And that's also what separates it massively from doing a job. Because that's what comes from like owning a business.
Juliet: A question from me actually is how do you manage your stress?
Tom: A few things, a few ways. I think for years, I just thought what I was obviously stressed, but I just thought that was kind of normal.
Juliet: It's
Tom: I just was, and then it was like, Oh, I think I'm just I tried to combination of reading and exercise., is that and then trying to find quiet times I've flitted in and out of meditation.
Tom: I'm interested in it, but sometimes it's, you've got to work hard at it and I'm not, I don't think I've cracked it but, but exercise and reading, and then just distractions. In terms of whether it's family or doing things. You just [01:04:00] gotta give into that.
Tom: Um,
Tom: yeah, you just have to, and, it's hard and, I think as it never leaves you because when it's yours, not something you can switch off.
Tom: But it's finding things that are like, if you are working out or you are, do this, there's this thing called high rocks, which is this like this competitive
Tom: crossfit thing. So I've started doing that this year with a mate and you train for that. And when you're going and doing that, it's just something that you can shift your attention onto.
Tom: And for the times when you're doing that or training that it just, everything else kind of gets forgotten for a while. It'd be hard for me to say, right, I'm just going to go and. sit in a room and try, not to think about it because it won't work. We talk about this with our holidays.
Tom: So there's this idea, I'm not saying it's wrong, but there's this one notion that the best way to relax a holiday is just to go and lie on a beach in the book. And for some people that just is not because if you're lying there. And your phone's blowing stuff. It's very hard to switch off.
Tom: So we, often talk about challenges in terms of travel. We have a service called get lost where we literally get people lost in environments and they have to explore their way out of it. And they kind of, they don't know where they are and [01:05:00] they've got, we've got special force people in the background. Who can see our clients, they can't see them. It's a challenge. They've got to explore the way out of this environment. It could be over a weekend or 10 days, but it's a physical and mental challenge because you're having to think of the whole time. And, actually that, mental focus on every step you're taking is actually a form of relaxation everything else that is probably on your mind, at home, at work just falls away because you don't have the.
Tom: brain capacity thinking about it.
Juliet: don't know why, but when you don't think about something, you then come back to it with the answer and I have no idea how that
Tom: Yeah. Yeah.
Juliet: the running, swimming, hiking, not being on your phone, not having it front and center, there's something so amazing that when you come back to it, you're like, Oh, actually,
Tom: Yeah. The other thing I'm a big advocate of is just learning something new every year if you can. So we all the studies out there show that if you are, trying to learn something new separate to what your work is for your brain, it actually keeps developing your brain, right? So that kind of gives you, additional benefits when you go back to work. [01:06:00] So at Black Tomato we have an employee benefit called Curious Courses. So every year we give every member of staff a budget that they can go and spend on any course they want. Nothing to do with travel, could be like learning a language, it could be an instrument or whatever, and we just want people go and learn and do things separately because that again is a distraction, it's just a, it's taking your head out of the workspace
Juliet: But they'll come back to
Juliet: the day
Juliet: job more creative as well with better ideas. Yeah. So it benefits everybody. That's a really good
Juliet: idea.
Juliet: Amazing. Thank you, Tom, so much for your advice. Is there any last golden nugget piece of advice you'd like to offer a founder and starting a company?
There's two pieces I and I, when I've been asked, this is what I say. If I'm starting a business, it's usually going to be like, just find something that you really, really believe in. And why I say that because everyone will be like, well, obviously, it's more that you could come up with business ideas or see a business that may on by your spreadsheet that really financially successful, and it might be.
Tom: If you don't really believe in it or don't know it, the first time you hit that barrier because it will happen is where you need that belief to keep you going. , because you're passionate about it. If [01:07:00] it's something you've done just because you think it's going to make a load of money, but you don't really care so much for it.
Tom: Yeah. Some people are lucky and that works, but a lot aren't, and then it just falls away. So believe in it. And then the other one is once you've got something and we've touched upon it already, it's just remember that it is. It's you, right? So you are accountable to you. So, it's not a nine to five.
Tom: It can be, but in a good way, all encompassing. Like, if you love it and you believe in it, it won't feel like a job. It'll just feel like you're getting to work on something you're passionate about with the highs and the lows. And when I started the company, my father who was an entrepreneur he said in those early days, I'm not advocating this long term, but we talked about things like you need to be obsessed with it and in a good way. So it does need to take a priority. And that's can be hard. But don't underestimate what you need to put in so if you can be obsessive and then build it and then get to a point where you can have other people and you can build a better work life balance because you need that in the long run. But in those early days. I think we all know people who jumped up great [01:08:00] ideas in the pub, and have started it but sort of started at 11am in the pub and just not really.
Tom: Kept it going. And more often than not, they're not the ones who are still working on it. So
Juliet: His friends in salary, I mean, I'm salaried just by a company I started, but his friends in normal jobs, which a lot of founders talk about, he's like, Oh God, you work so hard. You need a break. And it's like, you just don't get it. You don't get it. And you never will get it. And then someone else said, you're never going to be employed by someone else again, because they know that, you know,
Tom: Well,
Tom: that's it. I mean, it's, it's, really true. Because you're always sort of working, so, if people say, Oh, well, you're, traveling here or you're flexible, you can go and do this at this time.
Tom: It's like, yeah, but I'm always So it's actually, but that's the benefit. Like, when you're, you're in boss, if you can get it done in the right way, the flexibility is a real perk but don't just don't underestimate it and, say, but if you believe in it it's very easy to obsess over it because something that you love.
Juliet: Fantastic. Thank you, Tom. So much for your time. I really appreciate it.
Juliet: Congratulations.
Juliet: And [01:09:00]
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