How to build your brand organically through social with Estée Lalonde, CEO & Founder of MIRROR WATER

With Statista reporting there are 35 million Instagram users in the UK, social media platforms are a powerful tool to build brand awareness and convert followers into loyal customers. 

Given this season is a focus on all things branding I was keen to speak to an expert content creator.

In this episode, I hear from Estée Lalonde, CEO and founder of bodycare brand MIRROR WATER. The brand champions mirror work and self-care, inspired by Estée’s quest to find effective relaxation tools during the pandemic.  Estée has enjoyed a long career working within social media building a following of over 677k before founding her brand in 2021 which has already amassed a following of 35k. 

She shares her advice on how to build your brand through social media, why doing the initial creative work on your brand is crucial for success and how DM’ing one of your idols (in this case Bobbi Brown) can be the motivation you need to keep going. 

Estée’s advice:

• Always start with a good business plan
• Branding so important; to start with, concentrate on aspirational visuals that can then inform further work
• Don’t rush this stage: 
• Create mood boards
• Take care of yourself and go with your intuition
• Get to the essence of what you want
• Settle on a name, which will take you in the right direction
• Look for a designer to support you and ensure you click with them, build that relationship to a point of trust 
• Be strategic on social; post regularly and expect this to be a slow build
• Social media can help you launch, it is a big time commitment however it will pay dividends 
• Brand instagramming is harder than being a social media influencer (owned content v earned, DM FF&M to find out more on this)
• Posting every day becomes a burden so look at process and systems to help you on this
• You can’t do it all so be clear on what success looks like and work backwards
• Keep it lean - less is more in all things in business, focus on one thing and do it well rather than trying to post on multiple platforms all the time
• Take time to reflect on what you’re doing and enjoy it
• Expect to be overwhelmed at times; but hang on it there!

If you'd like to contact Estée you can reach her via @esteelalonde on Instagram

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Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2023 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.

FF&M recommends: 

• LastPass the password-keeping site that syncs between devices.
• Google Workspace is brilliant for small businesses
• Buzzsprout podcast 'how to' & hosting directory

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to season 10 of How To Start Up, the podcast helping you start and scale your business with advice from entrepreneurs on what to do now, next, or never when scaling your company. This season, we're focusing on all things brand. So you'll hear from a series of amazing entrepreneurs on what they've learned in their own journeys. hosted by me, Juliet Fallowfield, founder of the B Corp certified PR and communications consultancy, Fallowfield and Mason. Our mission is to enable you to earn your communications in-House with a long-term view. With Statista reporting, there are over 35 million Instagram users in the UK. Social media platforms are clearly a powerful tool to build brand awareness and convert followers into loyal customers. Given this season is a focus on all things branding, I was keen to speak to an expert content creator. In this episode, we hear from Estée LaLonde, CEO and founder of body care brand, Mirror Water. Estéee has enjoyed a long career working within social media, building a following of over 677, 000 followers before founding her brand in 2021, which was already a master following of 35, 000. She shares in this episode, her advice on how to build your brand through social media, why doing the initial creative work on your brand is crucial for success and how DMing one of your idols, in this case, Bobby Brown, can be the motivation you need to keep going.

Juliet: 1:20

Thank you, Estée so much for joining How To Start Up today. Especially for our branding season, which kicks off in 2024. So if we're recording end of November, 2023, so it's not away. Um, But given I've seen you on Instagram, I followed you for years. I saw your launch of Mirrorwater and oh my good God, is it a delicious, amazing brand you have built such an incredible brand so quickly, congratulations.

Estee: 1:44

Thank you. I feel like I needed to hear that because there are so many ups and downs and I feel like I'm in a bit of a down right now, so thank you for saying that.

Juliet: 1:52

It's so interesting because every person I speak to and everyone I meet in the co working office I use as well is like, it's a roller coaster. You have to be all right with that. And I'm like, I'm not, but I'm at peace with the fact it exists. But I'm sorry to hear that you're in one of those down bits, but the good news is it means you're just about to be on

Estee: 2:08

Exactly. And that's what I keep telling myself when I'm having like anxiety fever dreams at night. I'm like, it's only gonna get better.

Juliet: 2:15

Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think, oh my goodness, there's so much I want to talk to you about because given the rise of social media and links to mental health, looking at the ethos behind mirror water in the sense it looks back to mirror work, you're looking in the mirror, you're doing the self reflection. It's sort of the antithesis of social media, isn't it? So do you maybe want to introduce the brand and why you started

Estee: 2:39

Definitely. So, my name is Estée. First of all, I am originally from Canada. For those people listening that hear an accent, I'm originally from Canada, but I've lived in London for 15 years, which is absolutely wild because I don't know where the time went, I feel like just yEstéerday I moved here, but anyway, in that time, I discovered the world of blogging and YouTube and all of those things when it was very new to the world. Not everyone was doing it, there weren't that many beauty YouTubers in the world, and now of course there's hundreds of billions of creators, but it was a very different time. And the reason I really looked to blogging, was so I could find a sense of community in a place where I just moved. I moved to this new, completely different world, and I felt super homesick. And as you alluded to, I talk a lot about mental health, and it's something that's followed me through my life ever since I was Honestly, my first memory of feeling depressed, I was around six years old. So it's one of those things that I didn't realize at the time, obviously when I'm six, but looking back, I see those patterns as early as six. So when I moved to this new country, I felt really lost. I felt I didn't have my place to belong, I didn't have any family, I didn't have any friends, and I discovered this world of beauty and vlogging, and for me, it was so much more about the lipstick and the face moisturizer. It was a way to connect with people in this new place that I decided to live, and that's how my career started. It was really organic, I wasn't looking to start a career through social media, it was really a hobby that I was doing in my spare time. And slowly, I gained a following and decided to quit my part time jobs and try blogging for the first year. I said I was going to give myself a year to really try this. And luckily it panned out because I don't know what I would do otherwise. So for the past sort of 14 years, I've been doing that. So I've worked in the beauty world. I've tried every single product under the sun. I've had some amazing brand collaborations and I've done that more on an endorsement deal basis where, you know, a brand will come to me. They want me to promote the launch of their new product and I put that in a YouTube video But I've always wanted to really have my own brand my own Thing to really sink my teeth into I had been to so many founder events where you know Nicola from Neom was launching her new candle and we were being told how she did that. And then, Margaret from Amoravidza would launch a new product and I would be there. And I just, I thought it was amazing that these women were creating these brands. And I just always wanted to know more and more. So for me, it was always less about the beauty product and more about how did you get that made? Like, where did you source the packaging? Like, how did you actually make a product?

Juliet: 5:34

So entrepreneurial brain already ticking of like, hang on, they're doing it. What were you just waiting for that kind of moment of clarity as to what your product would be? You always knew it was going to happen, but in 2021, what was it that made you go that, that's it?

Estee: 5:50

To be honest, it was the pandemic. I think, like you said, you hit the nail on the head. I didn't know what that product was going to be. I didn't want to just launch something for the sake of launching something. I knew that if I launched something, I would have one go at it. And it had to be good. And I couldn't really find that niche. And I was looking, okay? I was really looking. But when the pandemic happened I had just gone through a breakup. It was brutal. I was in my 30s. I had just adopted my little doggy, who, if you're watching this, you can see her in the background. She's from Greece and she was a little anxious mess. She wouldn't even look at me in the eyes. She was so scared of me. And I just felt like my world was collapsing. And I thought, what am I doing? I'm living in the UK. Like my family's not here. And during that time when I was feeling really depressed and stressed, I found myself turning to the ritual of bathing a lot, and that has always been in my life. But especially during the pandemic, I was like in my bath every single day. And. For those people that struggle with mental health, you'll know that sometimes even having a shower or having a bath seems like the biggest hurdle. And it's like something you just don't even have the energy for that. So for me to have a bath in those days, I wasn't really working very much, all my work had dried up during the pandemic. Nobody was paying me to put a lipstick in a video at that time. And I just thought, Oh God, what would I do without having a bath? And then I just started thinking about. bathing and how much I loved it. And I just went into this rabbit hole of researching the benefits of bathing and why I liked it so much and products that I could buy to upgrade my bath time ritual. And I started to realize, really, there weren't that many brands doing it in a way that felt aligned to who I was, a 30 something burnt out millennial. I felt like a lot of the brands were maybe targeting an older demographic. So that was a light bulb moment for me.

Juliet: 7:44

Yeah, amazing. Well, thank you for doing it because I know a lot of people benefit from it as well, but I love the fact that you've launched a brand that's so honest about why you've done it and the benefits. It's not necessarily the cosmetic benefit. It's the ritual. It's the experience. It's the self care. It's the recognition that you need some help and that is so important for anyone in any job ever, but especially I think for entrepreneurs, freelancers, contractors, who don't have the security of a work community or a regular paycheck, so I think it's a huge achievement for what you've done. Have you, and this is a big question, have you enjoyed

Estee: 8:21

yes, I can answer that very quickly. It's the best thing I've ever done. It's the hardest thing I've ever done way harder than anyone could ever prepare you for and I've been prepared because like I said, I've got access to so many founders and everyone says, this is very hard and it really is worse than you think but that being said I've I was really up for a challenge. I can make a YouTube video with my eyes closed by now and I was looking for something to get me out of my comfort zone. I love growing, I love being challenged and doing things that I'd never done before. I didn't even know what the term MOQ meant. Minimum order quantity. That's not my world. So I just was learning all of these things that I felt like a fish out of water

Juliet: 9:05

Yeah, it's that thrill, isn't it? And I think I hit the kind of year and a half mark and I. was conscious of the fact that that learning curve that was so steep of I've learned how to build a website, I've learned how to set up Xero, I now know how to employ people, I know how to fire people, like all of that learning wasn't plateauing. It's still pretty significant. There's always more you're going to learn, but the adrenaline was wearing off and it was wearing thin and that burnout is really real. And that's something I'd love to talk to you in a little bit later on about. That side of the business, but given the season is all around branding, the fact you've built an amazing brand through social media, I, I think first and foremost, but correct me if I'm wrong on that, but how did you go about your brand? How did you

Estee: 9:47

Well, for me, branding is so important. If you don't have a strong branding, you might as well forget about it. That's the way I think. I love branding. visual things. I am a visual person, but equally, sometimes I feel like you need the visual side, but you also need to be a realistic of what works on social media. So I feel like we're at a nice space between, being an aspirational designy type of brand, but also, we can hop on TikTok and have a good time. So it's been actually quite interesting trying to bridge those two worlds. But I started first of all by creating mood boards, so that was the most fun part and I wish I could go back in time and just spend a few more weeks doing that because it's so important and luckily I had time on my side because it was during the pandemic. And all I had was time and it was a really creative period of, I would have fresh flowers on my desk and I'd be listening to my ambient music and I'd get Pinterest up and just be super creative. And that is really important. So don't rush that phase. If you're someone listening, who's thinking about starting something, even something as simple as water rippling, what color is the water? How big are the ripples? Really learning about what you feel in your gut, and I think intuition is super important when it comes to branding and that's why you have to take care of yourself because if you don't take care of yourself, it's really difficult to be able to know what your intuition is saying. I think so many of us are. out of touch with our inner worlds and I'm actually experiencing that right now where I just feel a little distant from myself and it's so easy to get away from yourself when we're running around and doing eight million things but that branding period I feel like you just need to take yourself to a cabin and forget the world for a minute and get to the essence of what you want the brand to

Juliet: 11:39

Well, I mean, this might be a stupid question, but some people at the beginning, it can feel completely overwhelming. It's like, I've got to launch a product and I have to get it salvages immediately. And it's like, well, step one, I presume it is the core of the product. What does the product do and what is it going to serve to your clients? What problem is it going to solve for them? Did you get your ingredients and the kind of, practical element of what the product was going to serve before you then did the design,

Estee: 12:02

I did the design before I did the products. So, I basically created all these mood boards, and I came up with the name. I knew I wanted that name, and I knew I wanted this particular vibe. And then the first thing I did was found a designer. Her name is Manueli, she's amazing, I couldn't have launched the brand without her. And she took my ideas, which is really a bunch of nothingness, and she turned it into what everyone sees now as Mirror Water. So she's really instrumental in creating the brand. So I would say It's worth the money to hire someone who has a design eye and can turn a concept into a real thing. so that was the first

Juliet: 12:37

because the concept you can get really lost because it's so huge and it's so endless, you can go, go, go. It's, it's, It's hard to contain your enthusiasm as well. Finding someone, I think in any element of business to pull you out of the weeds and help. See big picture and go, and I'm going to realize this for you. So did you meet her and just have a really good connection that you knew she could translate this for you?

Estee: 12:59

Well, I was recommended her through my friend Yenna. She's the founder of something called Gel Cream and I've known her for years. And she said, you should check out this girl, Manuely. I worked with her before and I just knew it. I knew before I even met her that it would be aligned. And then when she came back to me with the logo, I thought. That's not what I was picturing, but it's even better than what I was picturing. And I think when you're starting something, you really have to give people the freedom to do what they do best. The trust has to be there, obviously. And you can't just trust blindly, but equally, if you hire someone and you believe in them, then you have to let them fly with that. And that's how I approach all of my team members within reason.

Juliet: 13:39

Someone said, let people be good. If you're paying them the money, just let them be better than you at things. And I was like, yes, freedom. And that's how you want to be treated by your colleagues as well. You have obviously built an incredible Instagram following. I think we often forget that people start with blogging and the rise of social media has been a quick one. I was in an interview the other day with Peony Lim and she said I was a fashion student at the Courthold and she said I just started blogging and now we all think of her as an Instagrammer. And the same with you, you've got 677, 000 followers on Instagram. Mirror Water has 35, 000 followers on Instagram. That is a big number. How, first of all, do you manage the anxiety around that? Because I'm sure that is a real thing.

Estee: 14:19

a great question, and I think the anxiety has really changed over time. I didn't have any anxiety in the beginning because I was young and it was all very exciting and I didn't really understand what that meant. Now that I'm a little bit older and I recently just got engaged and I'm excited to hopefully start a family soon, that number and that feeling is more stressful than probably ever before for me. Just because I'm really Into my privacy. And a lot of my friends now don't do this. Whereas in the beginning, all of my friends were creators. So it was normal to post about everything that you did. But now, a lot of the people that I hang out with, I'm the odd one out by posting everything. And it feels more unnatural to me now, than it did then. That being said, I don't know what I would do without it. Because if I don't post every day, I'm like, I don't know what to do with myself. It's become such a habit. And I love it.

Juliet: 15:14

Yeah, it's your job and it's what you get paid to do. And was it a case you just built an organic following year on year and you're putting content that was getting engagement that lead to more shares and more Is that how it sort of came about or were you really going after it and really strategic about building that

Estee: 15:28

It was a mix of both. I think in the sense that I was strategic because I was posting consistently, I was going to events and I was meeting other people, so I guess there's a strategic element there, but I wasn't doing things. necessarily just for views either. I didn't have like that big boom. Wow. Like she just gained 200,000 followers. I never had that. It's always been a consistent thing. And I think just over time, a lot happens in 15 years. I've met a lot of people in 15 years. So. When I walk into a room, I know a lot of people there because I've seen them 800,000 times. It's not something that just happens overnight. It's relationships that you build and cultivate over time. And it's interesting because I see a lot of TikTok people or whatever now, and they get huge overnight. in a way I envy it because wow, that's A lot different than like working for 15 years. Well, I know it's just different to the way I experienced it, but I can't do what they do I don't know how to do what they do That's such a skill and i'm like i'm fascinated by it and I can't really get my brain around what they do So, fair play to them. That's its own entity but I just wonder how they would deal with that sort of overnight success, but That being said, they don't necessarily have the legacy and the connections of, knowing the journalists and knowing all these people, but I guess in this day and age it doesn't really matter as much.

Juliet: 16:55

mean, it's so weird. And I think a lot of people think they're experts in Instagram and, TikTok and social media. And I spoke to Jeremy Jauncey once, founder of Beautiful Destinations. He said, if anyone tells you they understand the algorithm, they're lying. It changes every half an hour and it's like, okay, we can be at peace. that All of us are testing and trying and learning, but going back to Mirror Water and its launch, how fundamental was social media in the launch of MIRROR

Estee: 17:18

WATER It was everything. It was really the only tool that I had. I think, of course, in so many ways, because I had my platform that I built, it was a huge leg up in so many ways, obviously, and a lot of people don't have that. So I feel really grateful for that. But on the other hand, You have a lot of extra eyeballs looking at you and not wanting you to fail, but waiting for you to fail, I would say, it feels like sometimes. I mean, that's maybe my anxiety talking, but that's how I felt.

Juliet: 17:46

You've got more to lose.

Estee: 17:47

I felt an extra pressure to launch something because everybody's watching. So, that,

Juliet: 17:54

And you care about your followers and you don't want to do them wrong. You want to give them something that you really genuinely think will benefit them, which is coming from an authentic place. I have to say you're the least influency influencer ever. You're so genuine and

Estee: 18:08

Oh, I wish I could be more influency because everyone's always telling me like you need to get better about speaking about yourself And you need to get more confident. Like this is just who I am. Okay? But thank you But social media was everything and I started building this community Before I even knew what products I was going to have. So I started the mirror water Instagram. It was just a vibe it was just pictures of Bathrooms and yeah, I know

Juliet: 18:36

I remember watching going, what is going on here? This is really

Estee: 18:39

I want to get back to that. Actually. That's something i'm working on Uh, but that was very exciting and people were like, what is she doing? What is she gonna launch? There was all this speculation. I don't think people thought I don't know, but I don't think people knew the extent to which I'd been working on something. I think maybe they just thought it was going to be like a mood board or a podcast or something like that. I don't know, but I don't think they thought I was going to launch a physical product. So that was quite surprising, I think, to a lot of people. And honestly, to myself.

Juliet: 19:08

Well, it's working, so it's great and I love it. Um, And I think maybe for listeners, it's important to say that you were coming from a world where you were posting organic content on your own Instagram handle, you're working with brands as journalist would, as an influencer would to product and launches that you could talk about and give your opinion on. So it's, it's much more of a PR piece of content. Now you've got a brand channel with. It's products you're selling and you may have built a website and linked it to Shopify or something else where you can commercialize your Instagram for Mirrorwater in a different way that you were commercializing your Instagram for Estéee Lauderon. I a lot of people get confused. It's like, we want to work with influencers and we want to work on social media. It's like, there's a difference between what type of content you're putting out there and building. And could you maybe give a quick overview is the difference between organic and paid social?

Estee: 19:56

well, first of all, running the brand's Instagram is completely different to running my own personal Instagram. And I thought I would be pretty natural at doing the brand's Instagram, but actually it's a completely different skill set and it's a lot harder. So it's very hard for a brand to get Instagram followers and likes and comments because it's a brand and not a lot of people engage with a brand. So that's been a huge learning curve there. So I'll just park that thought, but obviously organic social is unpaid. And that's something that again, because I did it for so long, 15 years, it's so natural for me to promote a product for free. I've done, I do that all the time. That's what I usually do. Sometimes a bigger brand will come to me and say we would love to pay you to get this guaranteed content. And that's great. But for the most part, for my entire career, I was just. Gifted products, and if I liked it, I would speak about it, and it wasn't really whether or not they would pay me or not. I think that's changed a lot now Especially with the rise of UGC creators. That is something that I wish I thought of back then, because it is genius! And I was doing that for free to grow my own audience. So UGC creators, for anyone listening, user generated content, all brands are looking for natural looking content without having to pay a huge premium to pay an influencer, 5,000 pounds or something like that. So you'll pay a UGC creator like 500 pounds and they'll create a bunch of assets for you to make it look more natural. That's a whole other world, isn't it?

Juliet: 21:28

Yeah and also when you're looking at your mirror water channel, you can. Boost posts and you can put money behind posts and pay for it to reach people rather than organic content where it can just get to people through the algorithm and people engaging and sharing means more Instagram thinks more people want to engage and share so it'll serve it up more often and it's so interesting because you're doing the both, you're

Estee: 21:50

Yeah, and also, paid media is a whole other thing that I need to really get into. But just because you put 20 pounds behind a post you might get more likes, whatever, but that doesn't necessarily mean More purchases, and we have been working with a paid media specialist, and we've been testing and trialing and putting money behind some of our posts, anyway, it's not really converting, and there's an art to that as well, you have to really think about the creative behind the paid media that you're putting out there as well that's a whole, that's a full time job in itself which is really difficult,

Juliet: 22:24

Well, in the world of marketing, my day job is in communications and we enable founders to own their own PR and storytelling and it's coming from an in house role before seeing that creative director speak to the journalist. It's dreamy and that's what I love, but there's so many parts of the marketing bucket that a lot of people like. Well, I can design my own logo, I can do my own paid social, I can do my own PR. You actually have to learn these skills and there's a reason there's lots of big brands that have big marketing departments. It shouldn't just be dismissed as something that you can just do off the cuff. And a lot of people have said this as well, is you have to test and learn, you have to try things, see what works, see what doesn't work, learn from it, A, B test, everything. So. Do one thing A and another thing B and then look at the results and compare them to see what works in your newsletter. Send out, split it in half, A, B, test it. Look at the content and content is king and it just, oh, we should say queen. It is amazing how that feeds into your brand that feeds into the loyalty of your follower or your client, or even the repeat client, because you start putting content out that jars with them and be like, Oh, maybe this brand isn't for me. It is a craft and it's something that I guess you'll never exhaust. You can always learn more from,

Estee: 23:35

You're so right and I don't think I fully realized that before I started doing this on my own because I thought I'm creative I can figure this out but you know what I probably could but it is such a long process and it's an expensive process like you said you're trialing things all the time when you're a Startup brand and you're a team of three people, time is so precious and to go and monitor all these AB newsletters and stuff. That's that takes a day at least to do something like that. And that's something that a lot of times you don't have and the money You also don't have the money.

Juliet: 24:08

Yeah. It's a real conflict, isn't it? Because you, you want to learn to do it yourself because you want to understand it, but that takes twice as long than getting somebody else who's an expert, who's got efficiencies because they've already done it before, but paying someone else. It takes money and then time to manage that person. And it's the forever that dance that I don't think I've solved yet. Someone said, just throw money at people who are much better at you at stuff. It's well, when we're looking at budgets, like how much, how, for how long, and gut feeling for me has been such a helpful thing. It's so interesting what you said earlier about listening to yourself and. Checking in with your intuition because if you're ha, if you're exhausted, if you haven't slept and you're feeling particularly anxious about something, your intuition might not be as on point as it can be. So yeah, that self care oh my goodness. I, yeah. So important.

Estee: 24:54

It really is.

Juliet: 24:55

Has your social media strategy for mWater evolved since you've launched? Because it's been nearly just over two years, I think, since you launched. Has it changed dramatically?

Estee: 25:05

So you're speaking to me at an interesting time because I feel like the first year we really started to put those roots down, figure out who we are, just getting in the rhythm of posting every day. That's a lot to do. And then I think sometimes it does get away from you a little bit. And I, as the founder, there's only so many things I can really have eyeballs on and Really delve into, I'm dealing with things like logistics, packaging, legal, formulations, sometimes when it gets to the Instagram grid, I'm like, just post it, like we need to put something up. I think now that it's been two years I'm really looking at it now. Okay. What was this brand when I launched it? And where are we now? And let's not think about too much about how we got here, but let's just check in. So I'm actually, I really want to re strategize because I think something's not working for me. So I just need to re strategize. And it's like one of those things where you're so involved in it, every little detail, which really most people don't even notice, but I notice. And I'm excited about that. And I think there's nothing wrong with reinventing yourself and just going back to basics. I think, for me, launching the brand, I wanted to do everything all at once. That's who I am. I think I can do it all. But,

Juliet: 26:18

I think every founder is that and they go, yeah. it's going to be great. It's I'm really tired.

Estee: 26:23

Yeah. Trade shows, events, pop ups sales, collaborations, podcasts, it's a lot. And I was actually speaking to Margaret, who is the founder of Amoravidza, amazing skincare brand, and I was talking to her about this and she said, sometimes you need to shrink to grow. And it hit me at just the perfect moment. And I feel like that's what I want to do now. I just want Stop with all this extra stuff that I think is really, cause you have people in your ear saying you need to get this product in everybody's hands and do this. Let's just bring it back. The world is not going to stop and let's just regroup for a second here.

Juliet: 27:04

Well, then you're looking really closely then at the foundation. And if you get the foundations right, that core base solid thing that you're going to springboard off, it's more secure and. Confident you are about that, the quicker you then will grow when you're ready. And less is more is the thing that keeps coming up for me in the last few months. It's actually maybe our team size is great at four people and we don't want any more people cause we've tried it. It hasn't worked. And what is the perfect client mix? Less is more and it's less invoices. It's less payrolls. and then you can focus on things and do it really well and enjoy it. And I think that's the thing that maybe both of us have struggled with this year is actually. Taking this time to actually enjoy what we're doing, because it's so much work that you can feel overwhelmed and it doesn't become enjoyable. So for me, it's exactly the same. It's pulling it back, really concentrating on what are we trying to achieve? So yeah, I think less, less is more and having that core foundation because when you are then tired or overwhelmed, that's what pulls you back. I think it's that belief that it's right.

Estee: 28:03

yeah. And I just also wanted to add to that point, which I think it can be so difficult when you're looking at Instagram and TikTok and all these like brands with like billions of orders in the background and I'm doing this and we're doing that. It's very easy to think that's what I want. I want to be the biggest bath and body care brand and I want to launch in Sephora and I want to do this. And I do want all of those things, but. It's okay to just start slow and I think sometimes I can get a little carried away with myself like running before I can walk and actually there's No timeline on things. You don't have to launch in every single retailer. The first year you launch a brand at first of all, that's unrealistic anyway. So, yeah I like what you just said and I think that's the approach I'm going to take to this next year coming up

Juliet: 28:53

With social media and mirror water, if there'd been some pitfalls that you've looked back on and gone, Oh, right. Learned the hard way on that one. So

Estee: 29:01

many. Oh gosh, just maybe posting things that are a little off brand, things that like maybe not everyone cares about, I think, oh god, I think back to a particular post and that should not have been posted. It's not a particular pitfall in terms of something I've done, and I regret but a difficult thing for me in terms of social media is have finding new followers and like fans of the brand obviously a lot of people follow me and then go over to the brand But I think the difficult thing is then okay How can we expand the community to people who maybe haven't watched me for years? That's a really big challenge actually any advice i'm we'd love to take it

Juliet: 29:42

Oh, the scalability of extricating the founder, it's in every business that I've sat near and so works and we all talk about it, that if it is to become bigger than you, it first dawned on me, someone said to me, I said to her, like, how does it feel to be self employed? And she said, well, I'm not self employed. I'm employed. It's just by a company that I started. I'm an employee and part of a team just happened to be that the person that started the business was me a few years ago. And I was like, so nice to separate yourself, but it isn't all you. But that also means how do we find clients if it isn't me talking to people and how can the business scale without me? If I were to disappear for six months, then what would happen? So we've had lots of chats recently about it and it's really exciting and actually to see the team have these ideas without me is what's so exciting. So getting the right people around you, I think is so important. It's a really interesting one because you have built it off the back of your brand as your own influence. But I think it's such a beautiful qualitative product, the word of mouth from your existing community and your clients with beauty specially will fly. I have no doubt.

Estee: 30:42

Thank you. I think it's, starting to get there. And I think also a retail partners help with that. Somebody walks into Space NK, they see the product, they don't know who founded it. So I'm hopeful.

Juliet: 30:53

And is there a golden piece of advice that you would give to a new founder thinking about starting a brand?

Estee: 30:59

Oh, gosh, have a good business plan.

Juliet: 31:02

Really?

Estee: 31:03

Yeah, that was really the ticket for me. And if anyone's launched a company, you redo that business plan 800, 000 times a year and, all of that. But I think to have that plan and to really map it out, have a deck look at it, refer to it. I think that's really important. If that's not so much like a philosophical piece of advice, it's more of a practical thing, but I do think it's really important.

Juliet: 31:28

Amazing. And one thing we do is from the guest from the previous episode has a question for the next guest and it was Black Tomatoes founder, Tom Marchant, who's in the travel space and actually he mentioned something on his podcast, I need to go and look up, he said, Oh, we do these trips where we get people lost and we send them out into the wilderness and they can't be looking at their phones. I was like, take me on that trip. His advice, cause we had a very sort of heart to heart conversation as well. And he said, when was the closest moment you thought you just got to stop? And

Estee: 31:56

what was it that pulled you back from it? And he did say, everyone has them regularly. And it's what was the moment that you were like, you know what? This has got to end. Oh, no, there's a glimmer. I'm going to follow that. So for you, is there a point where you're like, no. You know what? I have never had that feeling for the whole point of this until I want to say last week. So, yeah, last week sometimes things just don't work out and when multiple things don't work out and things are getting stressful and you just think God, is there hope here? That's the, yeah, one more, don't hit me now because I'm about to lose it. I think that was the first time I ever felt that in two years was last week. And I actually, for the first time, took yEstéerday off and the weekend off and I've just been, I don't even know what I've been doing. I've been in a daze. You're talking to me today, I've come out the other side, which is good. But I think things do get on top of you. And I think the glimmer of hope is I have an amazing team and they believe in it. And I've always believed in it. And I think sometimes it's okay to have a little wobble, but I think sometimes it's is this you hear of so many brands failing every single day, like they're, it's really difficult, but yeah, last week was tough. I didn't know if I was going to come out of it, but I'm out of it. And I think it's just you're running on such low energy. I think like when you're a founder, you're pulling from wherever you can to get through and it's resilience. Basically having a company is resilience and it's rejection every single day. It's eventually going to knock you down, and for all of the highs, there are a hundred lows. So, I just need another little high. I think that's what I need. Another little hit of something soon, please, God.

Juliet: 33:48

It's so true. It's that sort of validation. I've had a few of those tidal waves that kind of get you and you're like underwater swim. Okay, come back up another one. And then you're like, I don't think there's another straw that can break this camel's back. It's broken. But then something will happen that will go, Oh my goodness. Okay. It's okay. It's like for me, someone I really respect in our industry replied about being a mentor for me. And I was like. She replied, even if she doesn't do it, the fact she's given it the time of day is amazing.

Estee: 34:15

Exactly. Exactly. Little things like that. Actually, I messaged Bobbi Brown on Instagram and I said, can I like talk to you about my brand? She said, I've seen it on Instagram. It looks great. I was like, that was the thing that pulled me out.

Juliet: 34:26

Bobbi Brown said, great. I mean, retire now. You've You've done it. it.

Estee: 34:31

She doesn't know the ins and outs, just that, that's

Juliet: 34:34

But to me, that's not Bobbi Brown saying it's great, which is amazing. It's you having that tiny little bit of energy left to message Bobbi Brown. And you did that, not her. You made yourself go,

Estee: 34:46

And be willing to get rejected again.

Juliet: 34:48

yes. And also take potentially another hit. Cause the more you put out there, the more potentially you can come back and knock you. It is bloody hard. And yeah it's. For me, people make or break it and that resilience, I was thinking when you were saying about resilience and rejection, I didn't think I could hate anything more than online dating, but sometimes with self employment, I'm like, this is even harder. Please don't make me do this.

Estee: 35:10

Oh my gosh, I loved dating. I'm engaged now, but dating is my favorite thing in the world, but it's all over for me now.

Juliet: 35:18

Oh my goodness. Okay. Right. This is a whole separate podcast episode where you can mentor me on that.

Estee: 35:24

I love it. I don't know why.

Juliet: 35:25

Do you have a question for our next guest?

Estee: 35:28

I'm just really trying to think and be honest because I had a question prepared, but now I'm in this, what do I really want? I guess my next question is what is really the dream for your company and when do you think, if ever, would you be satisfied with where it is?

Juliet: 35:47

oh, that is a good one. Okay. I'm

Estee: 35:50

because I think a lot of us are like, you're always, I always see this quote where it's yeah, it's never enough kind of thing. And it's probably not. But I'm curious to see if the next guest has reached inner peace.

Juliet: 36:02

Yeah. Okay. Really interesting. Thank you so much, Estée. It's been fascinating talking to you and thank you for being so honest about everything. think

Estee: 36:09

Thank you so much for having me. I think this has been therapeutic for me because like I said, I've been like going through something. So I think this is just what I needed to get on with the day.

36:18

I really hope you've enjoyed this conversation, you can find a recap of all the advice so kindly shared by guests in the show notes, along with our contact details. We'd love it if you could rate and review or share this podcast because it really does help other people discover it. To incentivize this a little, I would very happily offer you one of our PR guides on how to share editorial coverage legally, just DM us or send us an email. Hello at fallowfieldmason. com with review in the title and we'll share it on.