Daisy Bird | How to build an emotionally intelligent team

In today’s episode, we’re joined by Daisy Bird, founder of BIRD PR, a creative communications agency specialising in luxury travel and hospitality brands since 2010. 

Daisy leads with a deep belief in the power of culture, emotional intelligence and building a people-first business. After 15 years in business, Daisy is cognisant of the investment this takes as well as the invisible skills a founder has to have to make a business succeed with a happy team as well.

Stay tuned to hear Daisy’s insights on the emotional undercurrent of running a business, why understanding personalities is non-negotiable in service industries, how she interviews, the value of psychometric testing and why investing in people is the best way to future proof your business.

Daisy’s advice: 

• Align yourself with brands you respect
• In this way you will be more effective; integrity matters
• When employing, look for a range of talents and individuality - embrace differences
• Invest in your employees: coaching is helpful for your team in areas like leadership skills and self-awareness
• Wellness retreats are valuable 
• Employ people who are ready to learn and accept feedback
• Encourage and reward employees who consciously add value to prove their worth
• You must delegate; it’s not sustainable to do everything yourself and leaves no room for creativity on your part
• Allow time to replenish yourself
• It’s important to air and discuss female developmental/health stages
• Take care of your loyal clients and don’t give all your attention to the new and exciting ones

FF&M enables you to own your own PR & produces podcasts.
Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2024 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.  Email us at hello@fallowfieldmason.com or DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason. 

FF&M recommends: 

• LastPass the password-keeping site that syncs between devices.
• Google Workspace is brilliant for small businesses
• Buzzsprout podcast 'how to' & hosting directory
• Canva has proved invaluable for creating all the social media assets and audio bites.

MUSIC CREDIT Funk Game Loop by Kevin MacLeod.  Link &  Licence

Transcript

[00:00:00]

Juliet: Welcome to How to Start Up the podcast that dives into the stories of startups told directly by the founders. I'm Juliet Fallowfield, founder of Fallow, Field & Mason, where we empower you to own your brand's storytelling, via both PR and podcasting. In today's episode, we are joined by Daisy Bird, founder of Bird PR, a creative communications agency specializing in luxury travel and hospitality brands since 2010. Daisy leads with a deep belief in the power of culture, emotional intelligence, and building a people first business.

After 15 years in business, Daisy is cognizant of the investment this takes as well as the invisible skills a founder has to have to make a business succeed with a happy team as well. Stay tuned to hear Daisy's insights on the emotional undercurrent of running a business, why understanding people's personalities is a non-negotiable in service-based businesses, how she interviews, the value of psychometric testing, and why investing in people is the best way to future proof your [00:01:00] business.

Hi Daisy. Welcome to How To Start Up. I'm very excited that we're having this conversation. how are you?

Daisy: I am good, Jules. Nice to see you. Thank you for having me. I've been a big fan of your podcast and admiring your work for a long time.

Juliet: I'm thrilled to have you on and I know we've talked about it for a while, so it is fantastic that we're finally putting it in our diaries and making it happen. 'Cause I know when you run service-based businesses, it's probably the last thing on the list is to take time out and talk about what you're actually doing in the day to day.

Before we get into it, I'd love it if you could introduce yourself and a bit about the business that you founded.

Daisy: So I'm Daisy Bird, and I set up a creative communications agency in 2010, that always specialized exclusively in luxury travel, hotels, and wellness brands.

Juliet: And that's amazing and you've just celebrated 15 years, so huge congratulations. Everyone's said to me, just get to five, just get to five years. And I know in the last five years, the world's fallen apart about a [00:02:00] hundred times, but in 15 years you'll have seen it all. What were the key motivators for you in setting up your business at such a young age as well?

Daisy: I think youth was actually a gift. I sometimes wonder if I'd have had the, the strength and the courage to set up my own business at my age with more responsibilities from an earnings perspective or,I have children. So I think being young and very passionate about what I was doing at the time and knowing that I wanted to, just narrow my focus a bit, I was very lucky to work with incredible brands in the,hotel and travel industry,and for amazing people.

 I really always admired and respected my employers and I learned a lot from them. I got to a stage where I just wanted to narrow my focus and only work with brands that felt truly aligned with my interests and my passion points and my values. 

Juliet: And looking back at your startup self, what are you most proud [00:03:00] of?

Daisy: I think I am most proud of being selective about the brands and the people that I worked with. That was the intention from the get go, to align myself with brands, destinations and people that aligned with my personal tastes, my values, because that's where, the magic happens.

If you are really passionate about the brands that you represent, especially in my industry where my role is to champion them, to endorse them, to promote them, to tell their stories. from my perspective, it's gotta be driven by passion and genuine interest. And I knew from an earlier age that I'm extremely effective when I'm interested and passionate about things.

And when a brand doesn't align with my values or my purpose, I'm not so effective. So that really is what I'm most proud of, and I actually really. there were times when I turned down lucrative briefs, which could have propelled my business earlier. But it didn't feel aligned with my integrity and there were definitely times where I questioned, why I was doing that.

And then when big crises happened, [00:04:00] like COVID, it suddenly really, made absolute sense to me why I'd made those decisions because, our relationships, our client partnerships were,very human. They were very meaningful. There was a lot of love and care and passion from both sides and, honoring of a partnership, which meant that I think we came through it strong.

You know,we retained our clients and we retained our staff.

Juliet: That's incredible in a travel business. Oh my goodness. I've never heard anyone actually be able to do that through COVID. 'Cause it all, everything just fell apart. But you are right to be proud of that. And also I think to know that at such a young early age in your career is amazing because I just towed the line of working for luxury brand after luxury brand thinking.

Great, lovely job. Great work hard of someone else, and I didn't ever really feel like I fitted in, but you listened to that gut feeling quite early on and took the plunge, but what would you maybe have done differently looking back?

Daisy: I think I wish I'd had more confidence from the get go. I think I, if I'd have realized [00:05:00] that it would've been quicker than I'd anticipated to win clients, I might have resourced the business more quickly, hired more senior talent early. However, I was always into a kind of slow and steady approach rather than scaling too quickly.

Juliet: And it's expensive and people are the hardest part in any business because they, you read a cv, you don't know if they've got intuition, integrity initiative, all of those amazing skills. And I dunno why they call them soft skills because they're bloody hard to find, but that kind of thing. People are expensive and they take a lot.

Time and energy from you, and it's hard because then you are not doing the do as much anymore. You've got other people doing the do. On that, how have you approached recruiting people in? What lessons have you learned?

Daisy: We spend a lot of time with our coworkers and we are in a people business with service providers. We've got to gel,as a team, but also with our clients. I think I've been, I've always been quite careful to match, make [00:06:00] individuals with the right brands because not everyone is as effective on one brand or one sector as they are on another.

I really look for skilled people with similar work ethics and values, but I look for individuality. I don't want clones of myself, for example. I think in this day and age, especially working with luxury brands, people with high disposable wealth aren't all gonna be the same kind of personality types or with the same backgrounds or educations or, so I do look for diversity and for people to look through a different lens and approach, communication strategies, with individuality.

Juliet: How important is emotional intelligence when you are looking to bring people into your business?

Daisy: Hugely important. I think as well as, learned skills and practical skills and network and strategy, having, empathy, being able to read mood and sentiment, not just, our clients, but our colleagues. But also, customers. You know, at the end of the day, [00:07:00] brand strategy we are looking at, one of the things I love the most about my business is really diving very deep into a brand, understanding what that brand represents, their positioning, and their customer profile, and then adapting all our strategies around that.

Juliet: If you are gonna take it off their plate and communicate on their behalf, you have to know every nut and bolt of that business, and in the travel sector it's people. And I was laughing with a friend the other day saying, bloody hell, people are really annoying. 'cause you've got yourself that you have to manage, you have your team you have to manage, you have your clients who are also people you have to manage.

And then in our roles, with podcast production and PR you've got journalists that you then need to manage. So it's all people who can all have a bad day, but for your team where you are, as you say, you work really hard together, you do many hours together, how do you tackle that? How do you know when you meet somebody that they're gonna be a good fit?

Daisy: It is tricky, we don't always get it right, but I think we look for kindred spirit as well as skills. We've done a lot of coaching over the past few years, which has been really, really helpful. It started with me, I've always believed in [00:08:00] coaching, and I've worked with various coaches over 10, 12 years, and then I realized that I wanted to bring that into the business and I've had to start slowly so with my senior leadership team to help us, design a really cohesive and collaborative leadership structure and now bringing that down to sort of managerial level. So, I think that around 10 people have coaching now, and ultimately I want to bring that into the entire business because it's been very helpful for the individuals to have an external resource to help them with their personal development to dial up their leadership skills.

But also from a,you know, personal perspective, really growing self-awareness. We've used, thanks toour coaching partner, a really useful sort of personality testing, psychometric testing tool. Which has helped us individually grow self-awareness and also share with one another how we can get the best out of each other.

It's helped me design teams, and actually I've used that in final stage of interview process with senior [00:09:00] hires to understand where we need to dial up certain energies and certain teams and certain skill sets and where it might be too much to have too many of the same personalities in one team.

So yeah, I've found that fascinating. I found that very helpful for myself as a leader and to express to some of my colleagues, my own tendencies, how they can get the best out of me, how they can manage up to me, the do's and don'ts and really understand other people. I think it's been most helpful for more introverted personalities who don't express themselves as openly as some of the more extrovert personalities.

Juliet: Yes, because I find I, I'm very analytical and OCD and I work with a lot of creatives. And sometimes like, but, but how can you just not fill in the spreadsheet? How can you just not get that process? And they are over there, over there, over there, got a hundred ideas at once. And so if I was probably a little bit more aware of that from the get go, I'd be more sympathetic and they'd then be able to explain how I work the best.

But [00:10:00] that is a huge investment, both in money and time in your team, is it something you'd recommend for new founders to consider at the beginning of their businesses to get to know themselves a bit better?

Daisy: Absolutely. I think I've always been self-aware, but I think I was maybe, a bit ashamed to admit where I wasn't so strong. So I think in the early days, I thought I was meant to know it all and, and be everything and wear every hat. But if I'd known now, that I am, you and I would've been like dream business partners because I need around me, people who are incredibly analytical, practical, data-driven, excellent at process and organization because I can get carried away by ideas.

You know, I can have a million ideas at once and I can initiate lots of things, but I really need a lot of, really practical people around me to get the task done. If I'd known that in the early days I might have hired, senior people to balance out. my strengths, but I'm now very lucky that I have excellent people around me, including a very fantastic managing director who balances out,where I'm not so strong [00:11:00] and can help, really drive the business and,get a lot done.

Juliet: I would contradict that though there is no luck in this. You have just slogged and slogged and then decided to put money back into the business to do the coaching and invest in those people. But do you see it paying off in the long run then once you've got this, it sounds, 'cause we've chatted over the years about people and structure and teams and trust and delegation and loyalty and all of these things that you kind of hope people are gonna bring back to the business. And when you are leading the ship and you're paying every salary out every month, it can feel quite of a drain sometimes when you are not being fueled back.

But do you feel more supported now that you are team are more aware of you and who you are?

Daisy: Yeah, absolutely. I think you have to be open with your senior people. I'm a real collaborator, so whilst I'm the sort of sole business owner and the founder, I like to canvas my people to make opinions and I really care about, what they want and need in the business. And, 

Juliet: Well you need them to be good. You're paying them to be better [00:12:00] at things than you are sometimes.

Daisy: Exactly. I've got people who are significantly more skilled than me in certain areas of the business, and I default to them and I champion them to the clients and I will delegate certain projects to, to real specialists within the team. I've always embraced. Difference. I certainly don't want a team that is all working like robots.

 You know, it's, it's got to be customized and personal, how we deliver service to our clients and pulling resource from different teams, if someone is really excellent with,a network in, for example, the art world or the fashion set, or is an absolute demon at organizing events or partnerships, then we'll pull resource from that team or that individual because collectively we can be brilliant.

But if you rely on if one person to manage a single project or a single client,

We don't get the brilliance of a wider team.

Juliet: Well, that's the joy of communications and it's this kind of magic fairy dust that people go, oh, PR, and I've had CEOs in the past like wave their hand at me. I'm like, it isn't magic. It's hard work, but it is magic [00:13:00] when you get the right people on a project and that it all happens and that collaborative approach.

 People ask me, why do I go to coworking offices? because I cannot be working on my own solo. I get really bored in my own company. And that human connection, I think makes or breaks any job. Culture actually is such a buzzword these days. And people talk about brand development is the community growth.

It's all about community and culture. in founder land, which tends to be quite beating your chest and brag-tastic especially in said coworking offices, how have you tackled culture? You've been doing it for 15 years. I know from our conversations from years and years ago, you've always been so thoughtful about your people and I was always in awe of how much you put your people first within your team. 'cause I was working at brands at the time that couldn't care less about their people. For you, sorry, this is a very long-winded question, how have you been a champion of culture from the get go?

Daisy: I think I've always been very clear on my values. I know I've said this, but values when it comes [00:14:00] to how I care about people, our employees, our clients, the brands, having a really strong moral compass about what is right and wrong, what's appropriate and not appropriate. Yes, we're service providers, but we are not here to say 'yes' to every request that comes through from every client, because sometimes it doesn't align with our values or it doesn't align with what is, responsible strategic advice. I think taking care of people comes in many ways. You know, we can do the fun stuff, the sort of togetherness, the,the social element of work.

We do quite a lot on the wellness side. I like, and actually this was something that came out in myinsights discovery report is that don't talk to me in a really formal way. I like informality. I like gatherings that feel not so businesslike. So I really enjoy bringing people together. For example, a wellness retreat in the countryside, I feel like taking people away from- 

Juliet: That's not your clients or the press, that's your team you are doing that with, isn't it?

Daisy: Yes, absolutely. I think taking people outta the [00:15:00] office into an environment where,it's very relaxed, it's very informal. You are connecting with each other on an equal, equal ground. Regardless of age, seniority, job title, it's actually just meeting people on a human level. And I feel like that's where the magic happens and we get to know each other and people feel relaxed.

And I enjoy that. I think maybe I get more out of it than, anyone else because, sometimes there is a weight of responsibility that comes with being a founder and the expectations of you. 

Juliet: it's every day you have that responsibility and everyone said, be okay with the rollercoaster and the weight of responsibility. I'm like, I'm not okay with it. I accept it, but I don't love it. But for you, a hundred percent, for you to get to know your people better and build those bonds and those, those core relationships with them.

So how often would you do your, say, an offsite with your team?

Daisy: We do an annual wellness retreat. I think we do quarterly wellness get togethers, and that's usually in London. Whether it's breathe work or movement or sound healing or, and I encourage people to come to me and make suggestions. and then we do an [00:16:00] annual sort of offsite, two night retreat which yeah, I think is important. We do invest a lot in people from a kind of staff development standpoint. And I think this is also related to your question on emotional intelligence. I think an element, which I think is extremely important to people that we hire is that they have an appetite to learn and an ambition to grow and develop, and that they're able to receive feedback in the spirit that it's meant because we do invest a lot in training, you know,Regular checkups, you know, the formal kind of six month annual appraisals, detailed KPIs, but it's the, regular check-ins from line management. and I think where people really, really thrive is when they realize that the feedback that they are being delivered is for their benefit, for their professional growth, not just for the business. And yes, there's always a risk that they can take that elsewhere.

And I'm not naive enough to think we keep staff forever. And I've had amazing people who have worked for me and gone on [00:17:00] to do brilliant things elsewhere. But I think being able to receive feedback well and listen and action, is extremely important for their own professionals or their personal development.

Juliet: Well also, not every boss is gonna be like you. And actually a colleague of mine said this. It's it's quite good when you're not actually in the office, 'cause we overhear other businesses nearby and how awful they are to their teams. It's like. Oh, I'm taking that as a compliment and as a win because they don't know what they don't know.

You and I have worked for a number of years for other people and in business, and we've met a lot of people, but experience is what you get after you've needed it. And I think as much as I want to nurture and protect my team, I know they will leave at some point. And I've said to them, when you are ready, let me know and I'll help you get a job somewhere else, because I'd much rather help you find the right job. And they're like, are you joking? I was like, well, no. 'cause A, you're gonna gimme more notice to replace you, but B, let's just be really honest about this. And I'd love, I'd love the feedback. And actually going through B Corp was amazing, 'cause it's all about feedback. It's like asking all the tricky questions because [00:18:00] then you know where you stand.

And I think people, and I dunno what you think about this, but. There's various commentary on different generations of how they behave at work and their expectations of what work should give them. It's like, no, no. You are here to earn a salary. That seems to be slightly forgotten. And I remember working at Burberry, 'til midnight most nights, and you know those lights that are motion sensored, and I'd have to roll my chair back from my desk to turn the light back on because it kept going off because I was the only one left in the office and I kick myself now, being that stupid to work that hard, but I learned so much from that experience and I learned and developed and I knew what I had in me. But I feel like, do you feel that kind of balance of that give and take has shifted over the recent years?

Daisy: Leading question. 

It's a leading question, quite a lot there. I think, there was a time, probably for the first 10 years that, most of my people, and we were a smaller business, but, most of my employees had very luckily been [00:19:00] with me since they graduated, which was amazing, that level of loyalty and care and connectedness between us.

Juliet: A number of them have moved on and gone on to do brilliant things and I had to recruit from other businesses and actually other sectors, and that was quite daunting. However, bringing in talent from lots of other brands, in-house and agencies, has helped. out.

Daisy: Communicate downwards that not every business perhaps takes care of people so well, or, invests in their development.

Because in those 10 years where my wonderful team had been with me for so long, they didn't know any different. And to be fair, I don't know any different because I've worked for myself for 15 years. So I don't know what's out there in the big bad world.

Juliet: Oh no, well I can tell you, I've witnessed your team and I've witnessed the birthdays and I've witnessed the celebrations. I've witnessed the offsites. It is unusual how much you invest in your people and our confidential conversations one-on-one. I know how much you really care.

Like it's always about your [00:20:00] team first. I rarely hear about press and clients when we have chats, which I think is really special and really unusual.

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Daisy: Well, it weighs heavily on me. Thank you for acknowledging that. There's always more that one can do, but we are a business after all and, whilst it's very important to cultivate a workplace and a culture and a team that enjoy what they do and feel that they're growing and learning and being taken care of, I've definitely been quite soft at some times, and actually I need practical [00:21:00] people around me to create the efficiencies and the processes. Because actually the more efficient we are, the more time people can have for the benefits, the additional holiday, the remote working, et cetera. You can't have it all, so there's got to be the work ethic, the graph, the results, hitting KPIs, listening to your feedback and developing. And then you can have the benefits. You can't have one without the other, if that makes sense.

Juliet: That's a very diplomatic answer to my question about, say the 20 year olds coming into the workforce who are like, well, I need 60 days annual leave, and I want a pay rise immediately. And it's like, well what value have you added back to the business? My head of HR in Australia for Chanel was amazing.

She's like, if you can come at me with your job description and show me everything in green is what we pay you to do, and then everything in red is what you're doing in addition that we're not paying you for, we might have an opportunity to redevelop your role or grow your role. I was like. Ah, well, it's simple as that, and then every negotiation I've ever gone into an MD with, [00:22:00] it's this is what I'm contracted to.

This is the value I'm already adding on top, can you give me a pay rise? I've proven my worth. They're like, sure. It's a no brainer. And especially when you're dealing with money people who don't understand PR and don't want to understand PR it's a very black and white system for them. But I think there was, it was that.

Kind of hack around it because lots of women typically, and typically in comms would be like, but they must know I wanna pay rise. No, no business is gonna give away money unless they can see a return. It's business. And that tough nut approach is not even tough nut, it's just good business sense.

But yeah, it's a hard one to manage when you care about your team.

Daisy: That is such smart advice. 'Cause you're right, I think, I sometimes feel ancient when I'm, sharing anecdotes with my, gen Z employees. And I really try not to, but back in the day, you know, we were just trained to,always consider what you could take off your line manager, because if you can make their life easier and help promote them, then you are gonna, there's space for you to grow.

And I think if someone comes to me with a succession plan, basically being solution focused. You know, this is the value [00:23:00] I'm bringing and also looking at it from a commercial standpoint, but also just considering a succession plan. You can't let go of tasks and responsibilities unless you can come up with a proposal on how they're gonna get done.

So just being smart with how you manage up to your line managers, because that's just deeply impressive if someone comes and they're showing more of a sort of entrepreneurial mindset. And I'm, I'm really lucky that I have a senior team now who really, they're business minded and I love that, it feels very collaborative.

Juliet: And then they reap the rewards, as you say, we're all in it together, and we wouldn't have businesses without our people. So it's a virtuous circle, hopefully not a vicious one. You've said before that the hardest part of running a business, those invisible skills, and output that you need to have.

Can you share what those have been for you?

Daisy: Yes, so, in the early days when I was wearing lots of hats and doing everything, being an out, out and about managing every relationship, hosting every press trip, being front and center with every [00:24:00] event, every client meeting,was part and part being a startup, that's also not sustainable.

You know, a founder, a leader. being front and center across everything doesn't empower the next generation of leaders to step up, but it also doesn't give you any space for thinking, creativity, and strategy. 

Juliet:  Someone said to me recently, you burn the candle at both ends and you burn really bright. I was like, no, you burn out.

Daisy: Yes, yes, yes. And I have definitely had periods of suffering from burnout. I can get very over excited about brands, people, projects, ideas. I love being with people. I get energized by being in community by bouncing ideas. However, I also need time to replenish and reflect, and I think I've learned that I need to carve out that time, and be less apologetic about it.

Just be offline, do the things that help me show up as a leader more effectively, and that might be investing in my own wellbeing. That might be carving out a big chunk of time for my own coaching or just being reflective on the future [00:25:00] because I think it's very easy to be stuck in the weeds and it's very challenging to show up as a leader in the right head space with the right energy if you are overbooked and running from X to Y.

Juliet: Yeah, and I feel like that busy fool, I think it was a guest, it's episode four, way back four years ago, said this is like, don't be a busy fool because there's so many things you could do and it's actually taking the time out to work out what you should do. And it sounds like your coach has really helped pull you out the weeds and see the bigger picture.

Is there any advice you'd give anyone about how to find a coach?

Daisy: I think coaches at different stage of your life, like I've worked with people at the beginning who, I think I've always been good at the softer side of business, the sort of culture values, integrity, and I needed help on practical. And then I got to a stage where I needed, help on scaling. And then I became a mother and I needed help on how to be a working mother because I didn't have role models around [00:26:00] me. As wonderful as my own mother is, I didn't grow up with a lot of working women around me, so I literally had no idea how to mother and run a business. I needed coaching that really, supported that stage of my life.

So I think, are different resources and different coaches for different types of businesses, and different human beings and different life stages. I think as women we go through lots of different stages of life and hormones and I think, making sure that you, in the right resources for those different stages is quite important.

Juliet: Yeah, so be really honest with the precise bit of the thing that you need help with and go after a coach that can support on that. You are a female led business hiring so far, only women, plus you have two daughters. How do you feel women's health should be managed and supported within business?

It's a hot topic, and I know the law may be changing around say, menopausal leave, but how have you tackled this?

Daisy: It's a very good question, and,I'm not shy to admit that I've, I've been through a pretty [00:27:00] turbulent few years at, a perimenopausal state. I had no idea what was going on, there really wasn't as much knowledge, even in the medical world.

There weren't resources to go to. And I was quite deep into that journey when I actually realized what was going on. it explained a few things, and I think I made a decision even though it was deeply personal, to share with some of my colleagues what was going on, because I knew that my, my fuse was shorter.

I wasn't as sharp as maybe they had, been used to. I was losing my train of thought in the middle of, you know, really important strategy meeting. And it felt really quite frightening to me. Whilst when I didn't know what was going on, it, it felt deeply frightening and I felt less, mentally strong and energetically able to show up how I was used to, but I didn't realize what was going on.

As the employer of lots of women, and as you say, as the mother of girls, there's no shame in it. So I did want to share with some of my coworkers, and I think I got a lot of compassion from, their response. [00:28:00] And I hope that if they go through it, which they probably will a similar stage, then they won't feel ashamed to admit to, whether it's me or another employer or people, they're line managing what's going on, because we're all gonna go through these things as women, having babies when you are,the owner of a business is challenging. I think there isn't enough support for, um, self-employed mothers. I really cannot get my head around how the lack of government support about being self-employed as a mother. and I do think there needs to be more resources available for businesses around perimenopause, menopause, how we can support our hormonal health, in a business context and how we can get to know ourselves.

Yeah. no, I completely get it because I've had a turbulent few years in my personal life and actually starting a business was quite good for me in terms, it gave me an anchor and a purpose and a focus. But then I had COVID a few times, mental health issues a few times, burnout a few times, and I'm definitely heading into perimenopause and I was like, most things, [00:29:00] especially you get really good at hacking way through life, especially when you start a business, you're like, you find the solution every time.

Juliet: I can't avoid menopause. It's coming for me whether I like it or not, because I'm a woman. I am deeply enraged how unfair this is and it started, it kind of penny dropped when I realized that all the guys I go to the gym with before the coworking officer at their desks, at least 20 minutes before me, 'cause I'm doing, my hair, putting my makeup on, and they're like, all Jules, you don't have to do that.

I kind of do. I've been brought up that unless I'm bit like business ready, I don't feel presented and also want to, but I'm 20 minutes behind 'em every day. That's time I'm not gonna get back. So yeah, that was just the kind of tip of the iceberg and then the perimenopause thing, I was so proud of my team.

A colleague came in one day and she said to him, oh, sorry guys, it's a bad day. I've got PMT, I've got really bad cramps. And I looked down, I was like. I would've never said that out loud when I worked in an office and I was so proud. She felt confident enough and [00:30:00] he's I'm gonna make you a cup of tea.

And I was. I like. They were both 25. And I just thought, why did we not have this liberty when we were in offices before? And then with menopause, there's something shaming about the fact that your body's letting you down and it's not as functional. Or you've got brain fog. Also, there's a hundred different symptoms that are coming our way, and we don't know which ones we're gonna get.

So are there resources that you'd want to point people towards if they're listening to this and they want a bit more support on the subject?

Daisy: it's a good question. I will,share some resources with you. There's some excellent doctors that really helped me understand what was going on. It's interesting because, I've obviously not been employed by another business for a long time, but, I have friends who work for big corporations,in, in advertising or branding.

And there's, increasingly in these big companies, which I think is brilliant because they are acknowledging that they are losing excellent, smart, ambitious women at a certain time because those women don't know what's going on and they can't handle the level of responsibility or [00:31:00] leadership that is required from their jobs, so they exit because they dunno what's going on.

It's similar with marriage, you know, a lot of women lose,their husbands or, youabandon their families for a period of time, have major crises because they dunno what's going on. So as an employer. if you can help signpost some of the symptoms and lead them to resources to get the support to manage those symptoms better, then you might keep people.

Juliet: Yeah. God it's ridiculous, isn't it? We go through education, then we develop our skills, we work our way up a ladder, we then potentially get married and have kids, not in my case. I can just about remember to take the recycling out, and I'm thrilled at the fact that I've got a 

simple life And then, you get through all of that, and then you get hit with perimenopause and then menopause and it's, it feels like one challenge after another.

But if we supported each other and were more open about it, it would mitigate some of those risk factors. and we all know from the Alison Rose review, 250 billion is missing from the UK economy because women are not encouraged to start businesses at the same [00:32:00] rate as men. And if they were, the entire GDP would benefit.

So it is with the greater good in mind that this should be fixed. 

Daisy: Exactly, and also, we are all women in my business, and that's not to say that I'm discriminating against men. I have really looked for and tried to hire men, but there is an element of, back to your question on, emotional intelligence, andto be really effective at RO you do need to have an element of sensitivity and understanding the nuances of different people and different brands and, really dialing up that kind of emotional intelligence side of what we do.

Juliet: It's hard to teach that as well. I was deeply flattered when I got my job at, I think it was De Beers, and they said, look, we know you've got probably 70, 80% of the hard skills, but you have a hundred percent of the soft skills. I was like, wow, that is a huge compliment. But it's something you probably, it's harder to teach that it's harder to draw outta people if they don't have it them already.

 So you've been in business 15 years, you've run what, from the outside, looks like a very successful travel company, and now I [00:33:00] have worked in travel myself. I know how hard that is. Your reputation always precedes you and actually you've built a brand bigger than just you now with your team.

With that, you've held onto a lot of clients over the 15 years. What is that secret to those long-term partnerships? Because in any service based business that is the, kind of, Mecca.

Daisy: Thank you for saying that, I appreciate it. I think I've learned from previous roles as well where there was a fast turnaround. And, I remember being an account director and,and leading a team, and because I was always a hard grafter, I went the extra mile and I'd work weekends if I needed to get the job done.

I was just given too many clients and I was at, you know, 27 and reaching a level of overwhelmed that just was not manageable. So I, always think of that 27-year-old self, and I think 

it's probably two twofold. Being really selective about the brands that we agree to work with, making sure that there's enough love, passion, excitement, interest for us to be super effective, not overwhelming my team. I think if we took every brief [00:34:00] that came our way there, there simply isn't enough talent to resource the business.

 There is unfortunately quite a lot of mediocrity in PR and I just can't hire ineffective people who don't have the skills, but also aren't the kindred spirit who share our values. It's just not worth it for me. I'd far prefer to be a smaller, perfectly structured business with incredible clients that, we grow year on you than taking every bit of business that comes our way.

So I think, we've always been mindful of saying no to clients that either don't align with our interests or our values, or that we just don't have the capacity to resource. Because if you end up in a situation where you are winning clients and you cannot service them, you are gonna overwhelm your team and people leave, or you are gonna neglect some of your legacy clients.

And I've always been very careful, I want to retain clients. I think the more exciting work comes not, everyone loves a launch, everyone loves an opening. and yes,it can be high pressure and complex, but where the really exciting [00:35:00] work kicks in is three, four years after launch where you have to get more creative with partnerships and community building and story development and concept development.

So we've always been careful to balance like the newness and the fun and the exciting brands that open the doors with really taking care of these clients that we've looked after for a long time. And actually, we did a bit of an audit of results across the business the other day, and I was really thrilled to see that one of our longest standing clients that we have looked after since the beginning, a lovely collection of properties in Ecuador and Galapagos, and their results are at the highest.

And we've had them for 15 years because we have to get creative every year to keep the momentum going.

Juliet: This is so interesting. A firstly, thank you for giving PR a good name because this is why a lot of people hate PR because they get sold the account director, it's the intern behind the scenes that's pitching that's never met a journalist in their life. The results don't come through, they get frustrated, it's like, well, we pay for how It's such a waste of money. And I [00:36:00] then hear this and I get really crossed 'cause it's no, it is magic. It's so beautiful and it works. And that's where you and your brain work really well because you've got past the launch. Anyone can do a launch.

It's new news. Journalists wants to know new news. When there is no new news and you get creative and you have to think of those partnerships and you are in the business, you know it really well at year three, year four. That I completely agree is where the magic happens and where a company like yours can really support as an external business.

Where it doesn't work and where I then win business is when they've had a shitty relationship with an agency that they've never seen anything from. They don't have any results to say what they've spent their money on. And then I train them to do it in house 'cause they're fed up and they're like, fine, I give up. I want PR, I need PR, I hate PR. I'm like great. So this is why I love you, because you've done such a good job and you give PR such a good name. The journalists love you, the clients love you, your team love you. It works, and PR can be celebrated. So thank you. You are breaking the [00:37:00] mold.

Daisy: Oh, bless you. Well, I think also we're not here to PR ourselves and our business. We wanna be the secret weapon.

So actually, I often say to my team, your job is to make your direct client look excellent and meet their KPIs. We are behind the scenes creating the magic, helping on strategy, doing the advisory so that they look brilliant.

It is not about us, it's about elevating their brand.

Juliet: And for the listeners, it's taken me three years to persuade you to do this because you are like, it's not about you, and you do it all behind the scenes, but you've never, I think at your 15 year birthday for Bird, you did a speech and you're like, it's not normally me speaking about me, and that's what makes you brilliant.

We are the kind of like puppet masters behind the scenes that people think we just go for long lunches and drink champagne if only. But yeah, it's amazing when it works, but you need that collaborative approach. You need the people to be on board and trust you, people being your team, your clients, your journalist contacts.

No, it's super exciting to see [00:38:00] that energy. Finally, what advice would you give to other founders looking to build businesses that prioritize people without compromising on performance? Given you are the expert at this.

Daisy: I don't think you have all the answers and that you can teach them everything. I think for a period of time, I felt like I was expected to coach and train and develop them, and actually there's only so much I can teach them. Bringing in external resources to help with coaching and development and inspiration, has been really, really helpful.

And also identifying people within your organization who could step up and train them on certain areas of specialism.

Juliet: Yeah. So really look externally and know that you cannot be a master of all trades. You have to pick your skillset, and then delegate the rest.

Daisy: Exactly. And also someone gave me some great advice when I remember when I was looking to set up, and I was panicking over the administrative side of the business, which I'm really quite weak on admin. And I was [00:39:00] literally having sleepless nights over, spreadsheets and invoicing and payroll and HR and how to write a contract.

And someone just said to me, you worry about all the things that you need to worry about when you've got the clients. Focus on your skillset. Focus on winning the clients and outsource those things. So literally from day one, I outsourced brilliant administration brilliant bookkeeping and accounting and forecasting, and I've had a very long-term partnership with an HR agency for about, 12, 13 years, 'cause cause know, my business inside out.

So having external resources who have complete experts, allows you to focus on where your time is really valued.

Juliet: Yeah, and I've sort of learned this the long, hard way. When I started the business, we were focusing on PR and teaching businesses how to learn the PR, and now we offer podcast production as this another service 'cause our podcast has taken off and it marries our soft skills of communications with a techie, nerdy part of my brain that I quite enjoy.

You would be like, oh, get that software away from me. But it's that [00:40:00] knowing my strengths and people are like, well, on your website why aren't you saying you could work for big luxury brands like I could, but I'm choosing not to. And it's that autonomy when you run your business of knowing what you want to do, you are gonna work bloody hard, you're gonna work like you've never worked before.

You may as well enjoy it. So for me, leaning into the podcast side of things has been such a joy because my brain is happy, I'm deeply passionate about it, I want to focus on it. And you get that flow state, I do anyway when I'm editing. That's the bit business I love so much. But being really honest with yourself about your strengths and your weaknesses, I think can game change. Also, how much you enjoy your job and given you've made it up for yourself, you may as well.

Daisy: And I, I really agree with that reference of being in flow state, hence why we've been really picky about the brands that we want to work with and the human beings behind them. You know, actually, it's not all about a brand or a destination, it's about who's the personality, the human, the creator,the visionary behind it.

'Cause II love working with entrepreneurs, I love working with true visionaries. So, the humans behind a brand is as important as the [00:41:00] actual product.

Juliet: Especially in PR, 'cause you are having to translate it for them. They're coming to you because they can't do it themself, so it is being able to pick up their baby and get it out into the world. You need to like them. You need to trust them and admire what they do. And then it's so lovely when you can come to them and help extract that story for them and then everybody's happy and that's where PR can be Wonderful. And I look back at some of our clients and look at the coverage we've got them and I'm proud of it. They're proud of it. They're happy. We're happy. And I think my mission at the beginning was to make sure people celebrated PR and didn't loathe it so that when it works,it's dreamy.

So we have a question from our previous guest who is Rachel Harris, Accountant She and strive X founder. Interviewing her and then you has been a complete goal week for me because you've been both of you on my list for a number of years. Her question for you was that strive X core value is 'don't be a dick.'

What is your core value in your business?

Daisy: I think similarly, have integrity, [00:42:00] have a strong moral compass, know what's right or wrong. I'm a very sort of feely person, I find my way through energy, which is why I need people around me who back my decisions through data 

Juliet: Interesting. And then what would your question be for the next guest? And it could be anything on entrepreneurship.

Daisy: How to get the best out of Gen Z employees, how to adapt leadership style, and create future leaders of that generation,

Juliet: Great. I'm writing this down. 

Daisy: ' Cause I'm definitely at a stage of. it's investing in the next generation of leaders and I've got down one, two levels and I now need to look at, the managerial, the more juniors, because I'm always trying to think about, the legacy of the business in the future. 

Juliet: And it creeps up on you. Suddenly you're at 15 years and oh goodness, what's the next five look like? Time flies, I've never seen anything like it in business, so that constant future-proofing, I think is super important. Thank you, Daisy so much, as [00:43:00] always. I've always loved our chats, but I'm so, so thrilled that you're now on How to Start Up and thank you for all your advice and best of luck the next 15 years.

Daisy: Thank you Juliet, and thank you for all you do to champion our industry 'cause it's completely misunderstood by so many. And I love your podcast, and thank you for your patience and inviting me on.

Juliet: Not at all. We got there. We did it. 

Daisy: If you'd like to contact Daisy, you can find all of her details in the show notes along with a recap of the advice that she has so kindly shared.