1 How to manage imposter syndrome, Hamish Mackay-Lewis

Hamish Mackay-Lewis shares his advice on how to understand your imposter syndrome, explains why it is actually an experience rather than a syndrome and some simple things you as a founder can do to manage those sometimes sabotaging thoughts that can come into your head when going out on your own. 

Hamish’s advice: 

• Impostor experience is very common: feelings of inadequacy which can come and go
• One advantage of these feelings is that you will prepare thoroughly and be highly motivated
• The disadvantage however can be feeling constantly anxious, doubting yourself
• It’s important to celebrate yourself, not to constantly compare yourself with others
• Don’t set yourself unreasonable goals
• Observe your thoughts; if you are noticing self-doubt, check in with others to get an  objective opinion about your achievements - and trust their opinions
• Recognise where this self-doubt stems from (often from childhood) and come to terms with this
• Don’t bury the sadness / frustration / nerves; learn to accept and understand these uncomfortable feelings.  Face up to what is causing them
• Consciously choose your response to life; practise daily to be in the moment
• Understand what is important about your business, its bigger purpose, quite apart from any financial rewards
• Keep a diary to record your satisfactions and frustrations and be attentive to what gives you energy and joy
• Be kind to yourself; remembering you are not alone with these feelings can give you resilience
• Accept that you will always have nagging doubts and may never feel good enough; and at the same time recognise that you are, of course, perfectly good enough!

If you'd like to contact Hamish you can reach him via hamish@hamishmackaylewis.com

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Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2023 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.  Email us at hello@fallowfieldmason.com or DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason. 

Transcript

To kick things off, we're starting with a topic almost every founder quietly battles imposter syndrome. In today's episode, leadership coach Hamish Mackay Lewis explains why imposter syndrome shows up, how to recognize its patterns, and how you can navigate it with more clarity and confidence, especially during times when pressure is high and self-doubt creeps in.

This, by the way, is inevitable when you start a business. This podcast is your entrepreneurial handbook for managing your business as well as managing yourself. Because without you, the business doesn't stand a chance. So let's get into it. 

Juliet Fallowfield: So yeah, my name is Hamish Mackay Lewis, and my business is called Hamish Mackays Rather Imaginatively.

your business, what is it you offer your clients? 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Well, essentially it's leadership coaching, so I, I coach heads of businesses, entrepreneurs, professionals who are looking for more meaning, who are stressed out, who lacking in confidence, or they're looking for more meaningful career.

Or business owners and entrepreneurs who are looking to be more effective, authentic leaders who [00:01:00] want a sounding board and someone to partner with them and help 'em find direction in their business. So those are the people that I work with. And the work that I do is essentially it's leadership coaching, and I bring in breath work, meditation, nature, connection to the work that I do.

It's not only coaching, but I also run retreats. So I take people out into the wilds to connect more with the natural world and connect more with the wisdom because I think as a society, we have lost our sense of adventure. We've become really obsessed with certainty and comfort, and life is inherently uncertain and inherently uncomfortable.

So I support people to lean into the inherent uncertainty and discomfort of life and recognize that actually if we want to lead a fulfilled life, we're gonna be fearful. We're gonna get uncomfortable, So yeah, I support people to bring a spirit of adventure into their lives and, um, feel more comfortable in their own skin.

Juliet Fallowfield: Today's episode is all about imposter. We call [00:02:00] it syndrome because that's what we all know it as. But I have now since learned from you that it's called imposter experience. Please, could you define what imposter experience is? 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: From my personal experience, which I have quite a lot of, of imposter experience, it's essentially not feeling good enough, but it's got a certain flavor.

'cause I think we've all got that flavor of not good enough to a certain extent, but imposter experience to me is. I'm somehow a fraud. I shouldn't be in the position that I'm in or with the responsibility that I have. I'm gonna get found out, and despite all the evidence to the contrary, I still don't feel like I've made it.

I still don't feel like I've good enough or I deserve the success. That I have or the position that I've achieved. 

Juliet Fallowfield: And why is it imposter experience over syndrome? 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Well, it's not a clinical diagnosis syndrome makes it out as if it's a 

Juliet Fallowfield: a done deal. 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Yeah. And it's not [00:03:00] an illness. It's an experience that often flows in and out of our lives.

When we transitioning, when we have to step up, we've maybe just set up a business or we've just been promoted, or we've been given more responsibility and we think, oh, I'm at the edge of my comfort zone here. Can I do it? Am I good enough? Am I the right person for the job? Surely it's not me. Surely it's someone else.

And so it can flow in and out of our lives, having this feeling like we're an imposter. And it's very natural, of course it is to doubt ourselves in those moments. And it's actually probably quite healthy to a degree. It's probably quite healthy to stop and go, oh, can I do this? Who do I need to be in order to succeed here?

But of course, too much of it becomes problematic. 

Juliet Fallowfield: Well, that's it. 'cause everything you do when you start a business is outside of your comfort zone. 99% of the role that I created myself when I was made redundant and started a company was new to me. And the bit of the role that I knew I could do IE PR or communicate something.[00:04:00] 

Was a tiny, tiny part of what I needed to get through to then be able to get back to the bit of the job that I knew how to do. So you get really comfortable with failing every day and knowing that it was not a failure. It's actually next time I can do it a little bit better. But how can you manage that internal dialogue?

How can you manage that imposter experience, let's call it? 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Well, I think recognizing that you want to be good, so you're having these thoughts because you want to be a value, you know, you want to be good at what you do. You want to be successful. And showing that acknowledgement to yourself and that kindness to yourself is, oh, okay.

I might be talking to myself in this way feeling like, do I deserve success? Am I good enough? Am I gonna be found out to be a fraud? I remember it and I still have it. Right. Is this sort of. Dirty little secret. I remember it as a dirty little secret that I didn't want anyone else to find out about that.

I was lacking in self-confidence and they thought I was gonna get found out just out of my depth. But as I started as a coach and I started to coach [00:05:00] people, and I started to talk to people who are a little bit more comfortable with their own vulnerability, I recognized, oh wow. It's not just me thinking this.

Everyone to some extent is thinking this, and it's just part of being human. Everyone's got their own unique flavor of not being good enough somehow in some flavor of them. Imposter experience is just a part of that. It's just a, a flavor of that. 

Juliet Fallowfield: And presumably if you didn't, you'd be a narcissist. Right?

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Right. Yeah. I mean, exactly. So it's, it's natural. So I want to be good. Okay, great. Why do I want to be good? Um, what's important about that? 

Juliet Fallowfield: Well, a lot of people think it's what drives them. It gives them motivation, it gives them a bit of fear. They go into a meeting, go, I've really gotta get this right. And especially when you're starting a business, at what point is imposter experience unhelpful?

Hamish Mackey Lewis: It's helped me to a degree because I prepare. If I need to give a talk, I prepare more for it than probably if I didn't have imposter experience. And it's given me discipline and it's given me some [00:06:00] motivation to succeed. But in my journey. I've realized having done some more work on myself and relaxed a bit more, I'm like, Ugh, this is what it feels to be relaxed.

This is what it feels to be really confident. And I had normalized feeling anxious all the time, and I hadn't realized because it was normal for me and I didn't know anything else. I didn't realize the cost it was having on my life and the impact it was having on other people. So, 

Juliet Fallowfield: well, what cost was it having on your life?

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Well, I was just anxious all the time. And I was constantly doubting myself. 

Juliet Fallowfield: So not feeling good about things and not enjoying things. 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Yeah, just not feeling good enough generally, and it was coloring a lot of my life and a lot of my relationships. So I would say for listeners, if you aren't celebrating yourself at all, if you're feeling anxious quite a lot of the time, if the story that you have about yourself is often quite negative and about the situation that you're in, is often quite negative.

If you find yourself comparing yourself a lot to other people, which is what I've. Done a lot in [00:07:00] my life. Or if you're looking for. For validation outside of yourself rather than giving it to yourself or you're setting expectations of yourself that that drain you and thinking, oh my God, how am I gonna do this?

And these expectations leave you feeling inadequate. Or if we're identifying ourselves. More about the money that the amount of money that we're earning or the position that we have. All of those are, are telltale signs of, I would say, an un unhealthy dynamic. They're all linked somehow to imposter experience.

Juliet Fallowfield: I did the fun exercise of fact checking going. My head is telling me this, but factually, that client is delighted. Why is my inner dialogue still telling me it's not good enough when someone else has told me factually, it's good enough. Then what do you do 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: if you can say, oh, I notice my mind is telling me this, or I notice I'm having the thought bad, then you're winning.

Because you're an observer there of your thoughts, and that's a very healthy position to be in. So to be curious about that is [00:08:00] great. And then, yeah, what's real? What's actually real? I love that fact checking what's the evidence here? And then speaking to people about it. Actually checking in and going, actually, what is this?

Just, is this just rattling around in myself here? Because often it is, is just the story that we tell ourself, which bears nothing of the reality out there. So actually asking someone, I thought it went terribly, but I just wanna check in if my story actually. Matches reality here. What do you think? If our imposter is really strong, we disbelieve what people tell us, but we need to practice to say, well, what do you really think?

And start trusting people about what they tell us because that's another version of reality that is also evidence-based. We can't just rely on our own story the whole time, so we need to fact check and we need to ask other people what they are seeing about our performance. Of course, 

Juliet Fallowfield: I think sometimes if that.

Chatter can get out of control. It could lead to self-sabotage, and that's a, for me, a complete waste of time and energy when time is so precious. If I'm doing [00:09:00] anything to debilitate myself, that's not a good thing to do. So I remember you once talking about giving your in a dialogue a different name, or observing it in a way that you can come along with you and you recognize it.

But if any sort of, I mean, not to make light of it, but tips and tricks you can give people to be like, okay, first step. Do this. 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Yeah, so, absolutely. So we have to recognize the story that we're telling ourselves. So where does this, I'm not good enough thing come from, you know, what is the actual story? And it's unique to us.

So we have to do the work in understanding where this has come from and usually it comes from childhood. Usually we pick up these beliefs. Because we're in need of love and we're in need of belonging as a child in order to survive, and it usually comes from our relationship to our caregivers or our parents.

We start shaping ourselves in order to receive the love that we need and we, we start wearing masks and we put armor on and we lose our authentic self somehow. [00:10:00] So when we're an adult, we learn this and we can spend the rest of our adulthood. Picking that deconditioning ourselves. All these beliefs that were actually very effective strategies when we were children, but are no longer effective as adults.

So that's when it becomes self-sabotage. So understanding that story, and you can do that on your own just by journaling, but happens better with the help of therapist or with the help of a coach that's getting, starting to get to the root of your relationship with yourself. So I think that's the first thing I would say, but also just to recognize that we're whole, we're not divisible, so we try and divide ourselves, compartmentalize ourselves, and you know, this shame or this sadness, or this anger, or this frustration.

Sometimes we can feel it's inconvenient. We don't want it. It's this part of ourselves that we'd rather forget about. There's part of me that's not good enough. It might manifest as nerves. It might manifest as fear. It might manifest as frustration. And typically [00:11:00] we've learned to push that aside or to suppress it or to just to deem it as inconvenient, but it's not actually possible for us to do that.

We cannot compartmentalize ourselves and divide ourselves. And if we do, all we end up doing is sapping our vitality, sapping up authenticity, and we don't show up as fully. As we could. So the best thing for us to do, and it takes a while to practice this, but it really gets to the root of the problem, is to learn to be with the uncomfortable emotions and sensations and feelings in our body to learn to soften and open around these feelings and to recognize when we're actually resisting them.

Because when we resist these things, not, it takes a lot of energy to do that. But we actually just make them stronger. They stick around. If we learn to soften around them and embrace them and accept them because they are messengers and they have a lot of wisdom [00:12:00] for us, and they are part of us, you know, why would we divide ourselves up?

Juliet Fallowfield: Oh, that's really interesting because I think when you are busy starting a company and you've got. So many hats to wear, and you've got so much on your to-do list, you are quite quick getting comfortable with that vulnerability in work in a professional sense. But sometimes you can hide behind a professional wall.

But actually when you're a founder, you are technically the business. And if you don't look after yourself, the business doesn't sound a chance. Are there any things that a new founder could? Or plan for, if they're thinking about starting a company, should they do some work pre-launch, or what practical things would you advise somebody just to keep an eye out for even?

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Yeah. Well I think, you know, having a practice of cultivating presence, so whether that's, yeah, breath work or yoga or meditation, because presence is king when it comes to mental health. And as I was saying before, if we can practice presence, we can practice. Consciously choosing our response to life [00:13:00] because life happens in the moment, and presence is all about being in the moment and recognizing what's real.

So whatever that might be for people, that is really important, and to have a daily practice of that is absolutely essential. I'd also say connecting to. What is really important for you and as a business, why you are starting this business? Connecting to a higher purpose. Uh, what am I in service of that I feel is really important to me?

What is the change that I wish to see in the world? Because then it becomes less just about us and our own problems and our own insecurities and anxieties. There's something that pulls us to our higher self, that pulls us to a bigger purpose that can give us fire and energy and courage to show up. Um, despite the fears, because if we're gonna lead a rich and fulfilled and meaningful life, then these [00:14:00] fears and the difficulties come along for the ride.

They're part of the package. We can't choose one or the other. We have to choose the whole package. That's 

Juliet Fallowfield: so true. And I think there's a lot of businesses now, especially post pandemic, are thinking about. People and planet above profit, and especially with B Corp on the rise, that purpose of a business, it isn't just making money anymore.

There's so many more things that enrich your day's work, and our team often talk about this, the fact that you spend so much time at work, you need to be A, enjoying it, but B, feel like you've got purpose there. So that as a founder, obviously you need to work on yourself first, I guess, before you know what your then business is going to 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: deliver.

I mean, back to that point about purpose, you know, for me. I had, I've, you know, I've had imposter syndrome, you know, for such a long time. It's been such a big aspect of my life and I find it quite crippling in some ways. And then looking at the state of the planet, looking at plastic everywhere, looking at climate change and being really frustrated and sad about the state [00:15:00] of the planet.

For me, it was just the confluence of mental, my own mental health and the health of planet, and realizing the two are in inextricably linked right. Um, and I'm finding a lot of meaning and purpose in now supporting people to connect more to themselves and find their own health by connecting more to the natural world in service of the natural world.

Um, so that's just an example for me, how that, you know, how that happened. That that was the trajectory that I. I followed. So, so for us to look at our own struggles as well. You know, what, what have we, how have we really struggled as a human being? We were intimately connected to that struggle. And because we're in that struggle and we will overcome that struggle, we then have a gift to the world, um, and an intimate knowledge and experience of that gift.

Um, [00:16:00] to then be in service, 

Juliet Fallowfield: do some work around purpose, is facing the hard stuff. Probably the best and quickest way to start. And I'm all for time efficiencies and I don't want to find shortcuts. But it sounds like if you just go head on into the thing that you're trying to avoid, you could actually come out with more answers.

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, oh God. Great. The more we avoid it, the more it shows up so it's there. It comes along for the ride, and yes, it can give us meaning, but also it doesn't need to be our struggle. It could just be something that we really enjoy and because we enjoy it so much and we're passionate about it, and it gives us so much energy.

Then that's our gift. 

Juliet Fallowfield: So is it a case somebody could start maybe keeping a diary of when they feel like they're in the zone and feeling like they're really getting something done and that sense of satisfaction? And also when they're getting frustrated with something or getting stuck on something, how could they start sort of discovering this about themselves?

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Yeah, journaling and being [00:17:00] really. Attentive to themselves. Exactly what gives them energy, what they do, and how it makes them feel. What gives them meaning. Absolutely. 

Juliet Fallowfield: Obviously, you tend to be in the thick of it and you're in the weeds as well as you're in the strategy of a business. A lot of people in podcast talk about responsibility, that you have a weight of responsibility on your shoulders as a business owner, but have you got any advice for people how to work on resilience?

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Yeah, I think so much of resilience is being kind to ourselves. And allowing ourselves to feel the impact of our emotions and, and really listening very attentively to ourselves. So, you know, you are talking about burnout earlier on. There are warning signs of these things. And if we're not listening, and if we're not kind to our bodies, then we don't heed the warning signs.

That's when things start getting really difficult. So actually being really prompt and timely and acutely listening to [00:18:00] ourselves, it's gotta be really important. What 

Juliet Fallowfield: could some of the warning signs be? Yeah, it's like, look at the s 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: you tell me, I haven't experienced burnout before, but I imagine it's, uh, fatigue.

I imagine it's. A sense of overwhelm, a sense of, oh, can I actually get, uh, some of these things done? Negative thinking patterns. I've 

Juliet Fallowfield: done a, a fair bit of reading around this for preparation for this season because burnout is obviously the one thing everybody needs to avoid because once you're burnt out, you have to fix everything and it's a lot more work to do it retrospectively than trying to prevent it.

I think the word overwhelm for sure when you start to feel burnt out. Everything takes twice as long and you are inefficient. And for someone who's running a company at speed and scaling at speed, you don't want to be inefficient. So for me it comes from a very practical perspective of if this happens, it's not going to be the best use of my time.

I mean, obviously there's a huge health [00:19:00] reasons not to be burnt out either, but I think that anxiety of increased heart rate, breathlessness, second guessing yourself, where previously you'd be quite confident not enjoying your work. I think is super important to recognize as well of the fact that if you're doing this, you need to be doing it and enjoying it.

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Absolutely, yeah. And actually, if we're gonna really listen to ourselves, implicit in that is that we slow down, do the things that give us vitality, do the things that resource us, that gives us us a sense of joy. Really important. And recognizing that we're not in it alone, but we don't have to be in it alone, and that we can share our imposter thoughts with other people.

Juliet Fallowfield: And every single episode actually for the season have said you have to do the work. And that as a person who's working quite hard, sounds like more work to do, but the net results. Coming back to my love of spreadsheets and being efficient, you actually perform better, your team's happy. You are yourself a healthier, happier person that if you do that groundwork [00:20:00] and set yourself up with these good behaviors, boundaries, habits, you'll end up in a better place.

So it's interesting when. I know I come out of having done a cardiac workout with a problem, solved more ideas, I'm more enthused about something. That sort of dot connecting thing that's happening in my brain when I'm not at a laptop and I'm doing other work has been really beneficial. So I guess if I can encourage people to do this work, then I would.

Hamish Mackey Lewis: When we do the work on ourselves, I think we have a tendency to think, well, you know, you don't know what you don't know, so you've gotta, you've gotta do the work. Take some humility sometimes, but it's so much that we don't actually know, but we do the work for the people that we're in touch with 

Juliet Fallowfield: and with imposter experience.

Is there anything else you'd like to add for a new business owner, founder, someone starting. 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: I think just recognize that whether you succeed and people with imposter experience, we set such high standards for ourselves. So whether you get to that top job or whether you, you reach that milestone or not, [00:21:00] your thoughts are gonna still tell you.

The construct of the ego is gonna still tell you that you haven't got there, that you're not enough. 

Juliet Fallowfield: Yeah. 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Which is, so just to accept that, to accept those thoughts are gonna be there anyway. And to be in a relationship with yourself that has kindness and compassionate is hard, um, and recognize that your.

At any one time, you are both not good enough, and you are absolutely perfect and the ego wants to say that you are either good enough or you're not good enough, and going backwards and forwards, I'm good enough, I'm not good enough. And it's exhausting. But you and me, we're never gonna be good enough.

There's always gonna be more to do. There's always gonna be something for us to grow into always, and we're always absolutely perfect. Just how we are and this moment is perfect, just how it's not either or, but both and, and that for me gave me a lot of relief [00:22:00] actually to recognize that. 

Juliet Fallowfield: Yeah, I read an article, they'd studied Oscar winners, and the more Oscars somebody won, the more dissatisfied they were.

And if they can't be happy with winning an Oscar, then I mean, there's no hope for anyone. How have you narrowed down the possibilities given there's so many different things that you can do as a founder, how did you choose to focus on what you do, especially in your field, actually? 'cause it's quite a broad one.

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Well, I think it was taking stepping stones, really. It wasn't one big jump. When I look back at it, I followed the thread. I followed the breadcrumbs that were right in front of me and these sort of chance encounters and then the things that felt good, I made. Steps towards, and sometimes I wasn't completely convinced, and that's okay.

We don't need to be each time, but we just take these small steps and that's what I did. So I, I feel really fortunate with the relationships that I made. So I met some really interesting. Dynamic, inspiring people. I thought, oh, I [00:23:00] want more of that. I want more of you. So when I look back, I can't have done it without meeting those people, and I still don't think I'm there in ver commas.

I'm still following those breadcrumbs, and I think that's, that's part of the journey for me. I'm always gonna be seeking. To be more me and to be better each day, right? Each day as it comes to be better than yesterday. 

Juliet Fallowfield: And it's so true. It really feeds back into quote, I think someone said in season one, so a year and a half ago, I think it was, Steve Johnson said, as long as you're comfortable running the company in five years, which is not the company you started, it's going to change.

But those breadcrumbs, that's the most exciting part to me. 'cause something will pop up, a conversation, a meeting. Uh, you'll have read an article that will give you an idea for something completely unplanned. So we have this thing that we do with guests that the previous guest asked you a question. And also I would like to ask you a question for our next guest.

So our previous guest asked, what is the [00:24:00] biggest mistake you made as a founder and what have you learned from it? 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: I think it's a mistake that I continue to make, which is things need to be perfect before I. Start them. So I'm designing an online course at the moment and I want it to be perfect before I start.

But what I need to learn is that I can learn on the job and the important thing is to start. 

Juliet Fallowfield: What would you like to ask our next guest? 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: What was their biggest leadership challenge? 

Juliet Fallowfield: Perfect. Thanks Amy so much. I have learned a lot about de composter experience and to know that it's not a diagnosis I think is a super important point.

And thank you for your time. 

Hamish Mackey Lewis: Well, thanks for having me, 

George. 

Juliet Fallowfield: If you'd like to contact Hamish, you can find all of his details in the show notes along with a recap of the advice that he has so kindly shared. Thank you for listening to how to start up. I hope these conversations offer you some confidence, encouragement, and reassurance that you are on the right track.

If you can join this podcast, I'd be so appreciative if you were to rate, review, [00:25:00] and subscribe as it will really help other people starting a company discover it.