How to scale early by saying no: Dan Cray, PHIZZ

In this episode Dan Cray, founder & CEO of PHIZZ, talks about how to scale without losing your North Star, stay focussed and go global.

After raising capital, PHIZZ had the opportunity to go broad early. New markets, new use cases and major international interest created momentum - but also complexity. Dan shares how chasing too many opportunities diluted focus, and why returning to a laser focus became the foundation for faster and more sustainable growth.

This episode is a lesson in timing, discipline and knowing when to say no.

Keep listening to hear how PHIZZ found clarity through focus and what founders can learn about leadership, restraint and long-term growth.

Dan's advice:

• Start with observation, not ambition
• Build credibility early, partnerships with trusted brands created momentum before mass awareness
• Investment creates pressure to scale, but chasing growth too broadly can pull you away from your core
• Focus is a growth strategy, cutting revenue generating products and markets can accelerate long term performance
• Say no more as you grow, shifting from a yes culture to disciplined decision making is key to scaling well
• Nail your home market first, global expansion only works if your core business is strong and stable

FF&M enables you to own your own PR & produces podcasts.
Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2024 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.  Email us at hello@fallowfieldmason.com or DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason. 

MUSIC CREDIT Funk Game Loop by Kevin MacLeod. Link &  Licence

Transcript

How To Start Up CURRENT- Phizz Episode (Daniel Cray)

Speaker 2: [00:00:00] Today in How to Start up, I'm joined by Dan, founder and CEO of Phizz to talk about how to scale without losing your North Star. and go global. After raising capital, fizz had the opportunity to go broad, early, . Major international interest created momentum, but also complexity.

Dan shares why returning to laser focus became the foundation for faster and more sustainable growth. This episode is a lesson in timing, discipline and knowing when to say no. So keep listening to hear how Phizz found clarity through focus and what founders can learn about leadership restraint and long-term growth.

Juliet Fallowfield: hi. I'm Dan Cray, CEO and co-founder of Fizz, the UK's number one selling hydration brand. You'll find us in all major retailers and onboard all Emirates flights.

When did you start Fizz.

Daniel Cray: we got going in 2015. And the idea for Fiz came really more from an observation than a big plan of how do we build a big business. and [00:01:00] at the time I was in Australia, in Melbourne and was spending a lot of time working alongside professional athletes, and um, and I basically discovered something a bit unexpected that. When it came to their hydration strategy, they weren't relying on quote unquote a sports drink, for their performance or recovery around hydration.

But they'd use medical rehydration form as the types that you'd find in a hospital if you'd had gastro. because that's what actually works.So raise a pretty simple question, which. well if that's how athletes and patients or if that's how you'd be hydrated as quickly and asbestos properly, why would you not bring that philosophy to just a day-to-day life?

And me from a a branding background looking at this space was there was a massive gap there from a formula, which I didn't fully understand yet. a brand and business, which my co-founders could turn some attention to. Most people know that water's important, but they don't tend to associate it just as crucially as important across things like brain fog or feeling tired. You basically underestimate the power that hydration can play in your everyday [00:02:00] life. we knew there was an opportunity, um. fill a gap across a brand and a formula. But we didn't have a scratch of science um, between myself and John and Rory, who were the original of the products.

And so we teamed up with a friend of ours who's a PhD neuroscientist,called Paul Anesthesi. When, you know, two friends and one of them got a PhD. In science, it's it's not a bad starting point to get a soundboard. that led to us creating a formula for everyday life.And we developed the world's first hydration tablet with a multivitamin.

No one had ever paired those two worlds together. Um, To us it made a lot of sense. And when Paul came involved, he basically told us that, of course, that has to exist. 

And so yeah, we wanted to turn proper hydration into a simple daily habit.

Juliet Fallowfield: So we're both in England at the moment. we all knew get some vitamins down, or you should up your vitamin C, you should look at vitamin D. And then recently, I've definitely seen the last couple of years, this rise of the electrolyte.

But you were really at the forefront of bringing that in with vitamins.

Daniel Cray: Absolutely. So we were at the forefront of that hydration category, emergence.And I'm really pleased to see more brands pop into the [00:03:00] space because it more education understanding of, it's a foundational thing and a daily life to the better. Hydrated is a, is a really simple, when actually proven scientific way to feel more awake, alive, and get a bit more better performance.

if the question is what differentiates us, we as a product help your body absorb more water faster, which not all electrolyte products will do. Um, We also replenish seven key electrolytes that you would lose through sweat or throughout the day, and we deliver a comprehensive multivitamin 

So it's a very scientifichydration formula coupled with a very comprehensive multivitamin.

Juliet Fallowfield: So other than the hydration, what are the other benefits that fizz deliver? You mentioned brain fog, tiredness all the good things that people who are starting businesses need.

Daniel Cray: Yeah, it helps you get ahead of a problem that dehydration can cause from the hydration side. So brain performance, it could be feeling tired just general performance of your muscles, like if you're dehydrated. Your blood is thicker and it makes you feel everything's just that much harder.

So if you think of hydration as the performance side, and then the multivitamin component is [00:04:00] more your insurance sidewe all aspire to eat a really healthy, fully perfect diet. And especially if your founder, maybe that's not ringing true with Deliveroo at 10:00 PM at night as you're sort of stuck in front of a screen It's quite aspirational to get all that you want out of food, but I think it's a great aspiration to have. so, You know, comprehensive multivitamin is just a way to cover all bases and it's, you know, whether it's the vitamin C component for your immune system to your B vitamins for better energy.this is an 18 ingredient formula,

Juliet Fallowfield: this conversation alone is making me really aware that I'm really thirsty. I. 

Daniel Cray: or,

Juliet Fallowfield: So you started 11 years ago. What point in that startup phase did you raise capital?

Daniel Cray: we launched Fizz in 2015 that's probably a very similar story. Kitchen table, trying to keep the lights on and, and get going. In 2019, we sort of look back on the lay of the land that was fizz and, you know, annual revenues were. A few hundred thousand, which wasn't nothing to sneeze at.you know, we were profitable if you've considered that. None of us really took a salary that was above our [00:05:00] part-time roles that we had at university. you know, we were selling to Alexa, the W Hotel or an Emirates Airline, or a Premier League football team. So we had really good credibility of who was trusting the product, and that was where our money was coming from.

But outside of Amazon. And maybe Ocado, hadn't really had any penetration. And we didn't have capability really to push into becoming a household name. So we we made the decision that when we thought about what did we want out of this business, we had quite lofty aspirations to become a household name.

We decided that we would do a capital raise. And so went on a whole journey finding the right investors and,Yeah, it was an, it was a really tough time as well. 'cause about two weeks into that decision uh, one of the co-founders Rory, uh, was diagnosed with bowel cancer. And we all lived together and we're running the business together. He's gone back to Australia since recovered, but it's, yeah, I mean, it was an incredibly tough moment the year of 2019 and, and, um, John and I, that sort of took on the task of, securing investment. we closed around, in the start of COVID. So actually our our partners, were [00:06:00] very honourable to still go through the deal at a time where a lot of people were backing out.

And then, yeah, we set about from that accelerating growth, getting listings in the likes of Sainsbury's, Tesco boots Scaling a business, which the last three years has been running profitably and growing more than. 80% year on year.

Juliet Fallowfield: And so from starting the business to doing the raise to now. What would you say your North Star is? What is the vision for the business?

Daniel Cray: we always had the vision of being a hydration brand and bringing hydration first solutions to everyday problems. That was the North Star I guess the interesting thing is when someone gives you a couple million pounds and you have, let's say, uh, well, you've never had it before 'cause you've basically had to work on marketing budgets that were minimal to ne next to nothing.

So the power of their media was 

Juliet Fallowfield: Sorry. Let's just say that again. For those that were not listening at the back, the power of earned media is everything. And for those that dunno what that is. Paid, owned, earned, paid is advertising owned is your own real estate and earned, and as I say, our PR [00:07:00] clients is earned. It's hard, it's pr, it are getting coverage on other people's platforms.

Daniel Cray: is hard, but I think that should be the most important thing because judge us by the company we keep and have other people tell your stories that people trust already, like that. That to me was everything. And that's why you look at our sales strategy back in the day was.

It was a hybrid between sales and marketing. 'cause if, you know, if we could sell to a W Hotel and W Hotel was giving it to models at Fashion Week or an Emirates Airlines giving to a first class passenger like that is credibility. We can take that logo and that name to the next retailer giving them the product immediately establishesI guess trust um, you know, the early nods to who we are as a brand.

Juliet Fallowfield: sampling as well. Talk about target audience.

Daniel Cray: It's great when your sampling comes with revenue.

Juliet Fallowfield: Yes, I.

Daniel Cray: but that that is definitely like a hustle phase, I guess, of the business. And then, you know, when someone cuts a check for a couple million pounds andsets about shared ambition for lofty revenue targets, then it's difficult 'cause you need avenue to scale. So, You know, obviously online is [00:08:00] one way of doing that, you know, for. Price pointed product at eight quid for 20 tablets. It's not a huge basket. We're not talking something that's like a hundred pound perfume. So D two C for us has never been, a huge percentage of our business. It has meaningful contribution, um, retail was where we needed to build.

And, in order to build in retail, you've gotta get people to say yes to listing you. So it can take a bit of time to, to get. Those listings and to get the number of doors or to get the SKUs in to prove that you can actually cell. So that pressure, let's call it, maybe led to making some decisions to find new avenues for revenue.

so like I said, our focus was to be a hydration brand. you know, by nature of us having relationships with whether it was a Sainsbury's or a Tescoand then having the context of a co-founder and, you know, best mate have a. difficult health scare turned our attention to the thinking, well, maybe we could be more of a all encompassing wellness brand.

And it led us to developing a pre and probiotic gut capsulewhich boil intents and credit to Paul again, to the [00:09:00] science behind it was. Best in market was reasonably priced,and was a,upward trending category, but it wasn't really to the core of who was fizz. And we got listings in multiple places, and was contributing at a time where turnover for the business was maybe, less than a couple million.

It was,delivering a hundred, 150, 200 grand and, and growing. But made the tough decision to cut it because. It wasn't who we were. We did a whole brand piece of, where did we wanna take the brand? How do we wanna position ourselves? And everything was coming back to you.

And you looked at the old investor decks. You look at all the original ambition. It was hydration, hydration, hydration. And we were. Startings are via left into this my all encompassing wellness brand. and so we made the dec difficult decision to say no out true north is hydration. Yes, we can have other products beyond our core product, but there have to be a hydration led first solution where that has meaningful contribution scientifically to whatever the problem is.

There are a lot of areas that you can turn to, whether it's energy, immune system, even even gut health, but we. produced this in a capsule format that didn't inherently bring any hydration element to it. So we, we cut it and

 it's like when you're a founder, you or you're a young team rather, [00:10:00] It's difficult to turn away from the thing that's still putting money in the p and l.

Juliet Fallowfield: I was gonna say that this is where the kind of the no comes from in the sense that you are having to walk away from a product that's making revenue, How did you master the art of No.

Daniel Cray: Well, I think when we started, yes, culture was everything. was, you know, founders, it's scrappy, it's someone shows you a lick of interest and you say yes.know, that even got us into like freshers and university area, but. it's like an eight pound product to someone who's probably not spending that on their wellbeing for a month.

It, things have maybe changed the last 10 years for students. 

but I took over as CEO in 2021, and I think that came with a shift of one hire people around me with. The right experience,in FMCG brands and two, maybe shifting the narrative a little bit from Yes. Culture to no culture because yes, culture got us really far to begin with and it got us to an exciting early stage brand position where someone was willing to invest.

But yes, culture was [00:11:00] leading us into decisions that weren't right for the business. the. Trimming of the range was a big moment.In 2022, we also decided to switch off international markets as well, which is a, was a big no moment.

Juliet Fallowfield: was the split at that point between domestic and international?

Daniel Cray: well, this is exactly the metric that led to the no decision because. The split was, 95% of the revenue was coming from the uk, 5% maybe from overseas. But, we were easily spending 20, 25% of our time chasing that 5%. from an ego perspective or, you know,not ego, let's call it ambition.

we had a lot of early interest from, you know. Website orders that were going all around the world, Emirates Airline flying us around the world.you could have asked me in 2020 like, oh, where in the world can you buy fizz? And you could, we'd sat here proudly and say, South Africa, Hong Kong, UAE.

And Not an untrue statement, but. We wouldn't have had any meaningful level of sales in those markets. and we didn't exist properly here in the UK as well. You wouldn't find us, you'd walk around the streets of London and say, what's this?

And 99 people outta a hundred would say, I've never heard of it. Still a lot more to go from our side But, you know, our [00:12:00] market awareness in London is now about 38%. So 

Juliet Fallowfield: it's really hard though. 'cause when you are starting and you are making it up as you go along and you don't know what you're doing, you've never done it before, the market may not have seen you before. You are scrappy and you are gonna make loads of mistakes. But I think. People who I've interviewed who started straight out of education say that it's brilliant 'cause ignorance is bliss, they dunno any other way.

And people like me who started after a 20 year career working for other people who was very strict and had big guideline books and all those sorts of things, it's like there's a lot of nervousness around doing things incorrectly or making mistakes and messing up. But I think anyone starting a business will say this is just get very comfortable with completely fucking up on a regular basis and you'll be fine.

Daniel Cray: Oh yeah. Rejection and developing resilience is like, it's gotta be top of your list of either wanting to achieve or just recognising that you will, if you're gonna succeed, you're gonna have to live with those two bedfellows,

Juliet Fallowfield: the three Rs, rejection, responsibility, and the rollercoaster. And actually if [00:13:00] you if any founder was truly honest, I think this podcast is probably turning into, it should rebrand to experiences what you get after you need it or the three Rs because it's deeply uncomfortable and no one really talks about that when they're glamorising entrepreneurship and that I'm a founder and I self-employed.

It's hard. It's really hard. But then also. You are making mistakes in front of your team that you've recruited, there's so many things that you have to bend and flex with.

How have you become used to that feeling? Or do you just learn to live with it?

Daniel Cray: That's a good question. I think I've always had a good worth ethic, which and sort of naturally beds you into overcoming problems and having advertising gives you quite broad experience of working with different characters, let's call it.

So, nothing prepares you for scaling a team unless you've done that before. which I certainly have just it's like, you know, even if I look at like. the plans for they're not easy to necessarily produce, but you look at the data, you gain some insights, you look at what you wanna achieve, you, [00:14:00] it's lay down some priorities across a few metrics and you go, right, cool, this is what we're gonna focus on.

Let's go and do it. What do we need to go do it? Okay, we need these type of people that add to the team. And then inevitably, the hiring process can be difficult. You've got team dynamics. You've got someone who goes through a life changing event, like a co-founder getting bowel counsellor.

Juliet Fallowfield: Like you just can't write what's gonna happen next because it's a people thing. And I'mand it's not unique to being a founder. Like anyone who's managing a team of more than a couple of people is gonna feel the difference of, Managing and building teams than it is just building the business because you can't escape either one unless you are, I dunno, doing something with AI agents and.People are human and I was gonna say, unfortunately, it's not unfortunate at all. It's wonderful. But people can have sick days or bad days or opinions. And they don't always do what they say they're gonna do. And even if you don't recruit a team, you're gonna be working with clients. And they're also people who have opinions and bad days and sick days and all sorts.

And it's the juggle. And then couple in our business, the journalists that [00:15:00] we work with as well. And you've got three pools of people. It's oh God. And everyone keeps telling me to get a dog. And it's I don't need anything else that needs something from me. 

Daniel Cray: People are complicated. So that it's, it's negatives, but it just makes things, it's not going from A to B in a straight 

Juliet Fallowfield: No. And for you, you had the 

 2 million pound check. You then scaled and took the business in a direction that you have now pulled back from in the probiotic capsule. How do you now assess whether an opportunity is strategic or just distracting? 

Daniel Cray: A good governance which goes beyond shooting from the hip, so that can come from people. So a savvy finance director to add some scepticism towards whatever p and l moment we're gonna. Rock the boat with um, it could come from the fact that we've got a category manager whose job in the business is to not just be selling fizz, but to be looking at the overall category and, its performance and our role within that.

[00:16:00] we still pay the salary, but it's meant to have a largely independent of the world of hydration and the potential that it could be untapping. People knowing what the North Star is and having good people is probably the first step to making sure that you stay on track to the North Star.

So that's definitely the first step. it's it's my responsibility to make sure that we have the right people and that when I want to introduce the growth project, it's also in keeping with that, so I'm not going off pace,which. I think I'm get over the 10 years I've gotten better atyou

Juliet Fallowfield: I think when you've taken investment as well and as there's a lot of, I mean, it's certainly common in the coworking offices that I use. Everyone's oh, you're gonna go after a raise. You're gonna scale are you're gonna sell? And it's kind of like beating a chest founder, ego attached to that, bragging right as it were.

But then as. No one again really talks that often about the negatives about taking investment in the sense that you might have some pressure now from somebody else that you didn't have before. Do you think it's a common fault of founders when they get investment, that they feel huge pressure to scale at pace and they [00:17:00] make some mistakes with that?

Daniel Cray: I know very few founders that achieve their revenue goals from their investor perspectives So inevitably. Most people I think, who raise are going to feel pressure and maybe in an environment where even if they're doing really good things, they're not living up to the expectations that they sold.

That doesn't mean that the the value that they sold out wasn't correct to be realised in the future years. But it might just take a bit more time. 'cause inevitably, like I said, you've got a plan in place and there's a lot of things as to why it doesn't come together as quickly as you think it could.

Juliet Fallowfield: Oh yeah. Founder hours, like dog age. You just, you think, oh, I can achieve these 50, a hundred things today, no problem in my waking hours and forgetting that you need to sleep, eat, and exercise. It's, yeah, the perspective of time I think also helps if you've come from Australia. 'cause I think distance perception in Australia, you're like, oh, fly seven hours.

Two days, no problem. In England, you'd be like, what? Whereas in founder hours, it's the same.

Daniel Cray: I've just flown back from the Middle East last night [00:18:00] and the whole team's asking me this morning like, oh, are you feeling jetlagged? I'm like, guys, it's four hours. Like why would it be jetlagged?

Juliet Fallowfield: That's a bus journey. That's fine.

Daniel Cray: Yeah.

Juliet Fallowfield: I love that. So you've given you've expanded globally, pulled back into the uk, at what point do you think you might go after a global expansion again? Or is that just not on the roadmap right now?

Daniel Cray: we've scaled the business from turnover in 2020 of 250,000 to last year closing just shy of 11 million. And we've done so profitably off of a single raise, which is a huge credit to what the team behind me, a building. And the international PTS Strategically, we cut it back in 2021, but. The ambition for the business to put hydration led solutions into the marketplace restricted to just thinking will be a UK business. The UK still remains the core and the focus, and yes, we're the number one seller, but it's a booming 105% year on year growth category. So we wanna make sure that we are fueling that incremental growth and building that out.

But it is time to start seeding the brand we sell to Emirates Airline we do a level of trade with the Middle [00:19:00] East We're building out distributors in that part of the world. We've got a launch coming my home country of Australia later this year coming into their summer. Um, Which will be a very exciting moment, um, for the team to see that come to life. So yeah, we have an international expansion plan across the next five years as to how and where we wanna take the business.

Juliet Fallowfield: you feel it's more shored up this time. You feel confident it's in the right places with the right product.

Daniel Cray: Yeah, I think, if we were a bigger business and a different, more conservative mindset, you just constantly just be disciplined. But we're not looking for, you know, five, 10% year on year growth. We're looking for baseline of 50% for the next five years. So that's gonna come with staying disciplined to yes, the North Star and.

Understanding your Golden Goose. UK market needs to retain a lot of focus, but you gotta start planting seeds for some bolder bets. look, are all of them gonna pay off? Probably not. Are they all gonna pay off as fast as we put them down into the five-year plan? Probably not. But I mean, if the history tells you anything, then probably not.

But

Juliet Fallowfield: but

you gotta try. [00:20:00] 

Daniel Cray: but you've gotta try and that's, you're in this, I think this is the nature of the beast is like when we're in the game to, to try a hand at a few things. And if you're trying your hand at things that make sense to your true north and make sense based on you have the resource to do it, and you're not adding too many priorities and you have the team has the bandwidth to then you're in a good place.

Juliet Fallowfield: I found that it was really weird last year. I think we'd hit four and a half, five years, and I suddenly thought. We have the bandwidth and the budget just to play a bit and just test stuff. And we'd grown the business. I say we, it was me and I called my business Fallow Field & Mason, which is my father's surname and my mother's surname combined.

And someone said, it sounds like there's three of you. And I was like, yeah, me, myself, and I. But we got to a point, it was like, I have never put any money back into the business, and my accountant is always laughing at me. He said, you do know people don't save the corporation tax. They invest it back in the business to grow.

And I was like, no, but the I'm gonna have to give that to the government in six months. He's in six months you could spend it now and earn it back. I'm like, oh, it feels very risky. So I was very hesitant on anything. [00:21:00] And that's why we've stayed small. And that I think, for me personally, suited me till now.

But last year was a point where I thought. We could just test some levers here. And we've done a paid search campaign for the first time to draw eyeballs onto the podcast training course. I wanted to find that tap of, we've built the business on referrals all well and good, but they might stop one day.

Daniel Cray: It's not up to me. I can't control it. I can't scale that. So it's been really fun to actually earmarks and budget and go, that could come to nothing, but that's fine. And that's part of risking that budget towards that spend. absolutely like you. like if that's what you want to do and you want to scale it and you wanna give that a go, that's great. 'cause that can be energising. But at the same time, if you're like, Nope, actually like I like having the proximity with my clients on a one-to-one basis then that is also fine as well.

Like I look back the plans We've been running ahead of plan for the last three years, and if you'd rewound the clock and spoke to me in 2020, you said, oh, Dan, do you think you'd be the CEO of Phizz when it's doing 11 million in revenue? I'd say Hmm, no. If I'm, If I'm really honest with myself, you know, four [00:22:00] years ago I said it's gonna have to be someone with a lot more experience to do that.

And that doesn't mean that I think I'm the perfect CEO now, but if you asked me should someone else be doing the job this year, I'd say no. I think like I'm. I'm comfortable being uncomfortable in the seat hereto, to get the job done. But then when you fast forward to the next, the next three years, should you be the guy who's there when it's doing 50 million?

And that right now scares me the idea of how would I look after a company of that size? But as long as it's energising, and that's the thing, like the moment it's, you're not enjoying it anymore, you can say, look, no. Took it here and I don't wanna take it any further. That's where it's gonna go. Either 'cause I'm getting off or that's all we wanna build to and we just wanna consolidate.

But that's where for the moment, it's a mixture of being disciplined and being bold, like core business discipline. We make sure we don't lose sight of that, but then we do, you know, we are profitable. We have some money, we have some team. We can invest in certain growth projects and see which works.

Juliet Fallowfield: That's such an important point that you make is what do you wanna get out of your job? And then also, what is the best for the business? So many founders put the [00:23:00] business ahead of themselves and don't look after themselves and forget themselves in it.

And the business might. Just suck them dry and burn them out and they end up going what did I do that for? But if you can marry the both together and look after the both, I think then you are laughing is, and it's an enjoyable job that you have made up for yourself. That is the ultimate goal here, I think.

Daniel Cray: I think, yeah. depends on the day of the week you ask me that question, but

Juliet Fallowfield: And how hydrated you are feeling by the

things.

Daniel Cray: Yeah, exactly. I've had, have I had my morning fizzle or not, butby and large I get to watch these guys build. An incredible brand, which is now starting to shop in different languages and and take on, you know, the Unilevers of the world at their own game. Like That is incredible. And I get to lead these guys and watch them not just come here for a two year journey, but like. get a promotion and start to run a team or move to a different department lo and behold, we're big enough to actually have like fully fledged departments and sub teams within each department Yeah, at some stage it'll it'll definitely get to a size where, you know, right now that scares me a little um, as to whether I should still [00:24:00] be the CEO, but like I, it's what I said five years 

Juliet Fallowfield: and you've got the structure around you that people will tell you as well. It's it's what you bathe them for

Daniel Cray: Just gotta hope that I 

listen. 

Juliet Fallowfield: True.

So if there's a 

Daniel Cray: What was that about? Saying no.

Juliet Fallowfield: you're like, no, I'm not listening to that. I'm absolutely fine with a $50 million business. If there's a founder listening that. Wondering whether they should put a turn in the water for global expansion.

 what one piece of advice would you give to them to consider before going global?

Daniel Cray: Are you secure or secure enough in your home market that if you were to go global, the house wouldn't burn down

Juliet Fallowfield: Yeah, 

And something we do is the guest from our previous episode has a question for you and our previous episode. Let me triple check who it was. It was is Samantha Cusick, who's this wonderful award-winning hairdresser who left a salon, went to a leasing agent to hire her first premises, and he asked for her business plan and she.

And she's also a podcast host, and the podcast is called The Silly Little Girls Club. And he [00:25:00] said, oh, this is ridiculous. You're just a silly little girl with stupid ambition. She's like, watch this space. So fast forward 10 years, four salons later, she's absolutely killing it. And an amazing podcaster as well, which is why I found her.

But her question for you was, when have you been a block in your own business?

It's a really hard one 'cause I, for me, it's kind of minute by minute, hour by hour. When am I not?

Daniel Cray: I was gonna say, maybe she should have left this question for my team. my job is to remove blocks But inevitably, I think, if I'm honest, I would've been more of a block to the marketing department a few years ago. 

Juliet Fallowfield: Because you had a background in marketing.

Daniel Cray: I have a background in marketing. I was the marketing director of his for its first four years of existence. And then inevitably, you know, this business is gonna live and die by the brand that it is as much as the science that it is So, yeah, delegating and not getting involved in certain things that, didn't need my time as CEO, but would've if I'd been at the head of marketing, but Yeah, there's probably a few [00:26:00] predecessor senior marketing hires that would've said, yeah, Dan was a bit of a block here or there, and maybe the current on Will. But we've gotten to a really good place, an now where I think, by and large, I think I've shifted from wanting The marketing and brand director of this business to uh, I wanna be the builder of it. And that comes from other people doing certain roles. and you can let go with trust of people doing good job as well.

Juliet Fallowfield: Yeah, but when it's familiar and it's your background, it's the kind of thing you do know how to do. It is hard not to default to doing it. And it's easy to pick up the easy bits. And actually if you've recruited someone who's brilliant at it and letting them be good, that is a really hard thing to let go.

And every founder will have come up a different way and had the same problem, I'm sure. What would your question be for the next guest? And it can be anything on entrepreneurship, startup business, you name it.

And no pressure, but I haven't ever had the same question

Daniel Cray: um, Okay, 

Juliet Fallowfield: 

Daniel Cray: In business you'd never rely on one client. So that's really distilled into how you make money. You need, that needs to come from multiple sources. As a founder, then why is it okay for you to just have one [00:27:00] business?

Juliet Fallowfield: And some founders have multiple. Right? And that's okay.

How do they have the time for it? that's a

really good 

Daniel Cray: I mean,but it from a strategic perspective, like you'd think you were crazy if you only had, if we only had Tesco and that was our one customer I'd be kicked outta my job.

Juliet Fallowfield: when I became self-employed, my father was, and my brother is, mom was like, oh God, it's so risky. I was like, no, mom. I was employed by one employer. I had one income with one paycheck. Now I have multiple clients. If one goes, there's still others. I'm, I feel 

safer. As much as it doesn't feel safer, it kind of does.

But you're right Oh, love this question. Jan. Thank you so much. 'cause everyone's you're doing PR and podcasting. You have two businesses. I was like, yeah, I like them both. I wanna do them both. And we do affiliate marketing as well. Why not? I know we would be. Better known if we picked one lane and stuck to it.

And we only did say beauty PR and became a specialist in that. But then I never wanted us to be a PR agency. We're a comms consultancy. So for me, thank you. You've, I can now sleep at night. I feel reassured. I'm just [00:28:00] gonna take what I wanna hear from one person and be fine with it. No, that was great. How would you 

answer 

Daniel Cray: hope so. 

Juliet Fallowfield: Do you, are you 

about to start 

Daniel Cray: the nature, the the nature of asking that question, I think is almost that like it's not a question that keeps me up at night. I've been doing fizz for 10 years and along the way there's been other things that have come my way that, do you wanna get involved in this?

you have ideas for other things, but inevitably it's always felt like cheating on the business. So I've not seen them 

Juliet Fallowfield: and

bandwidth 

Daniel Cray: had the time. Yeah. Bandwidth is, yeah. And I've not had the bandwidth for it. But then every now and then you well, like putting all your eggs in one basket is not really the.

Either the founder or the CEO mentality, but I'm very happy with my basket 

wouldn't change it. it's a question that I think a few, people will answer very differently. 

Juliet Fallowfield: Joe Fairley, who founded Green and Blacks with her husband. She was a beauty editor. I met her 25 years ago, and then I interviewed her for the podcast about green and Blacks, and she said, I give my ideas away. Now I've done a few different ventures. She did a bakery, she was running a magazine, and then yesterday I saw she's launched a new publication house and a [00:29:00] multimedia platform called On the Scent around Fragrance.

Jo, okay. You're giving, you're not quite giving away all the ideas, are you? There's another

one. 

Daniel Cray: can't give him 

all. 

Juliet Fallowfield: Yeah. But she's I've done my thing, I'm not gonna do it. And that was two, three years ago. And obviously there was an itch she had to scratch and she's Nope. On the sense launched and off she goes again.

So it's super exciting, but it, that's the joy of it. You can be the master of your own destiny and it is up to you. But taking that moment and that breath before you take the leap of is this right for me? Is this right for the business? Let's go. I think that considered decision is also good.

Daniel Cray: As long as you, as long as you can live with the decision, whichever that is. 'cause yeah, whether it's bandwidth or whether creative freedom or based on where businesses are at, like a lot of people make different choices with 

that. There's no right or right, wrong 

Juliet Fallowfield: Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much, Dan. It's wonderful to have you on the podcast, and thank you 

for 

all your sage advice. If you'd like to contact Dan, you can find all of his details in the show notes and tune in next week to hear Emmy Faust, founder of Female Founders Rise. Talk [00:30:00] about the RISE report and how to find community in entrepreneurship.