How to pivot in your mid-life, Jo Glynn-Smith, The Ascent Associates

Jo Glynn-Smith is a coach & specialises in leadership growth, career transition and personal transformation, working with people to navigate change. Alongside her coaching practice she hosts The Midlife Entrepreneur podcast, which explores the shift from corporate life into entrepreneurship, so is perfectly placed to guide us through how to pivot in mid-life & address how listeners might honestly assess whether they are ready to do the same. 

Keep listening to hear a practical guide on ‘how to pivot’ 

Jo's advice: 

• When considering a career change or starting a business in mid-life, be wary of a dramatic move which can be risky
• Consider your reasons for wanting change
• Make a list of the pros and cons of your current job
• Identify the aspects of your work you love the most/dislike the most
• Consider taking a sabbatical
• Consider whether it’s the pace of your current work/the way you currently work that is making you unhappy - not the work itself
• Coaching can help you identify the problems
• You will need to plan ahead financially and work out how long you can manage without an income
• Once you know this you can make a plan - Retrain? Have coaching? Undertake research?
• Be self-aware: will you be happier with a co-founder or a partner?
• Find people doing what you’re interested in, and talk to them at length
• Many skills are transferable - you will be competent in various fields
• Growth and learning are constant in everybody’s lives
• Self-belief can be the hardest attribute to find; use a coach to help you examine your successes
• Think about: what you love/what the world needs/what you can get paid for/what you are good at
• Finding your new identity and building a reputation takes time - expect this
• Create your own brand story
• Enjoy your autonomy

FF&M enables you to own your own PR & produces podcasts.
Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2024 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.  Email us at hello@fallowfieldmason.com or DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason. 

MUSIC CREDIT Funk Game Loop by Kevin MacLeod. Link &  Licence

Transcript

interview

Juliet Fallowfield: [00:00:00] the thing that is hardest is self-confidence and self belief it's frustrating if you're somebody who's quite good at lots of things, but not amazing at one thing.  when you're exposed and you suddenly run a business, there's nowhere to hide anymore.

Speaker: who-- Jo Jo Glynn Smith is a coach who specializes in leadership growth, career transition, and personal transformation, working with people to navigate change, which, whether we like it or not, is coming for us all. Alongside her coaching practice, she hosts the "Midlife Entrepreneur" podcast, which explores the shift from corporate life to entrepreneurship, so she's perfectly placed to guide us through how to pivot in midlife and address how listeners might honestly assess whether they are ready to do the same.

So keep listening to hear Jo's take on how to pivot in your midlife.

For full disclosure, I've known Jo for 20 years in our various different roles, and we were made redundant at a similar time. We used to go for COVID Battersea Park walks to stomp out our frustrations about what to do in our [00:01:00] businesses. She has become a closer and closer friend over the years, and it was actually her post on Instagram saying, "I want to start a podcast, but I don't know how to," that inspired me to create , our podcast training course.

She was our first-ever client in this service, and her podcast is often ranked in the top 50 of Apple

Juliet Fallowfield: Jo, I'm so excited to have you on "How to Start Up" because I've known you not only for years, but admired you and your career for years as well. This episode is all about how to pivot in your midlife, and it's something that many, many people will want to do, but also have to do.

So I wanted to chat to you about your career and your midlife pivot, if you could give us a little bit of a background to your story Thank you so much for having me, Jules. It's really great to be here. So 25 years in the fashion industry with lots of different roles within that. 

Started in comms, went into event production, then went into publishing and magazines. Then there was a big switch into marketing, and I worked as VP of marketing for a [00:02:00] global jewelry brand. And then from that, I then went into this crossroads phase in my late 40s and changed my career entirely. So I'm not a stranger to changing, and I have taken some brave decisions.

Actually, I was thinking about self-advocacy the other day, thinking, "Have I advocated for myself?" And I think I have. I think I've taken opportunities. I've said no to things that weren't working. I've left things that didn't serve me. But the big one was at the end of my 40s, and that was kind of what's inspired all the work that I do today.

So that was a long period where I really didn't know what I was going to do, but I really knew that what I was doing was no longer something that fulfilled me. And so that was a big moment.

precise moment that you knew you had to change and leave the big world of big salaries behind as well? I know we've talked a lot about that. We both come from big Bond Street brands and well-known jobs and big ticket salaries, which is a hard thing to walk away from. And what did you do in that first 72 hours 

it's difficult to say, [00:03:00] 'cause honestly, I got made redundant, and the first 72 hours were a bit of a blur. I just was just trying to breathe normally, to be honest. you and me both. You and 

Jo Glynn-Smith: a real sh- 

Juliet Fallowfield: it was a real shock, and I genuinely was shocked. It came out of blue for me. I suppose with hindsight, it shouldn't have come out of the blue, but it really felt like that in the moment.

So the first 72 hours, I, I honestly don't remember. I'm gonna say the first 72 days, All I knew, because I kept-- it's really weird, as soon as people know word's on the street and you're in a senior role, headhunters come knocking at the door. we were also in COVID, so it was a very weird time. So, you know, but despite the fact that we were kind of locked in and it all felt really odd I also had conversations happening and there were all sorts of conversations about really big marketing jobs.

because, Pandora, where I had worked, was a massively successful business and, we'd been really successful as a team, and I was just really underwhelmed by the jobs on offer. I wasn't feeling excited. And so I guess the moment that you're [00:04:00] describing was a moment when I realized, "Oh, crap, I don't wanna do that, but what the hell am I gonna do?"

Because I have to work. I need to earn money. but, something inside me, I don't know whether it was because of the weird time that we were in, was just pulling me away from saying yes. I just couldn't say yes to anything. And I had quite a few interviews, and I just didn't care about them.

Your was saying no.

my gut was just like, with every cell in my body was saying, "This isn't the right direction for you, and maybe it never was." I'd taken the job 'cause I'd been offered it without interview, and it was a great opportunity. Publishing, has really become very challenged industry.

I knew I had to get out, and this was a great opportunity to learn and grow and, have a big budget and work with a big team, and I loved every second of it. So that was an exciting kind of jump off a cliff moment. I quite like those moments. But this was jumping off in a much more like a slow-mo version, 'cause I knew that if I wanted safety and [00:05:00] security, I could go and start the interview process, and the chances are, post-COVID and being locked down and everything, that I would get something, and it would be a good salary in a reputable company, and I'd have a team, and I'd be able to do it.

But in my mind, my age was a big factor, and I was thinking, "Hang on, you've got a good 20-odd years of work left in you. What do you want to do with that time?" and I honestly didn't know the answer, I didn't know the answer, but I just knew it wasn't what I was doing. So that was scary and kind of exciting.

but scary. and I talk about this a lot. In fact, weirdly, I've just recorded a social post about this. I spent a lot of time crying ' cause I was so frustrated that I couldn't work out what it was. I remember saying to friends, know those people who have those kind of vocations in life that they have to follow, and they've done it, and they're doing it, and they're like, 'You've just gotta find your passion.

You've just gotta find your purpose.'?" And I have lots of things that I like 

Jo Glynn-Smith: But it's easy 

Juliet Fallowfield: if you know what it is. You just go after it and get it, and you do it and you're good at it. When seeing people in their [00:06:00] calling, it's so obvious. But it's really very frustrating when you don't know what that is.

I think it's frustrating if you're somebody who's quite good at lots of things, but not amazing at one thing. And so I definitely put myself in that camp. I was always quite good at lots of stuff, which is why I was able to kind of move through various different types of roles because I could apply my experience and my skills and stuff.

so that was the challenge. And then eventually I worked with a coach 'cause I really needed to find some direction and I knew time was running out, you know? I didn't have endless amounts of time to work out what this g- was gonna be. I have responsibilities. So I worked with a coach, and really my goal with the coach was I need to find the thing that I'm gonna do.

I just need to get onto the path, and once I'm on that and pointing in the right direction, I can do the rest. And that was the work and the journey that I went through, but it took at least, I'm gonna say at least seven months to do that. And with a lot of frustr- I mean, so much frustration, I can't tell you.

I mean, I would spend hours really thinking about you know, what do I want to put my time [00:07:00] and effort and energy into? And I sort of knew I wanted to have my own business, and I definitely had a high value in variety and freedom. So those were two things that I kind of identified through this process.

I also identified that the thing that I'd loved most about every part of my career was lifting other people up, being part of that journey. So it wasn't purely, you know, it wasn't a kind of, a charitable thing. It was like being in the picture as well, but being part of that energetically, I really wanted to do that.

So basically, we finished the coaching. I hadn't decided I was gonna take this coaching thing further. In fact, I was actually opposing it. I was like, "There's no way I'm doing that 'cause everybody's doing that." And it felt a little bit like you're you know, riding the wave with everybody else. I left it with the thing that I want to do is find a way to help other women mainly, but people, I want to make them feel amazing.

I want them to get, help them find confidence. I want them to feel really clear about how they're going to do whatever it is that they want to do, and I kind of left it with that. And then about a [00:08:00] few months after I finished the coaching, I remember phoning Simon, my coach, and saying, " I think I'm gonna do a coaching course."

And he said, " I knew you'd get there eventually."

Oh, as every good coach says.

Yeah. So he never said that I should do it, you know, obviously that's not his job. but I realized I needed a qualification actually, if I was going to do this. I probably didn't have the confidence to just go out and do it. I needed something that qualified me to be able to do what I wanted to do.

and so therefore, I signed up for a, a year-long course.

career pivots in 40s and 50s carry a different weight to them than say if you're 23. Mortgages, dependents, aging parents, you're being stretched in both directions if you children as well.

There's that moment in that pivot where the income from the old life is not there, but the income from the new life is also not there yet. I say yet because everyone tells me be okay with that financial rollercoaster, and it's been six and a half years for me, and I'm still so grateful when a client pays on time 

But that finance part, how should listeners tackle that scarcity moment? Is there [00:09:00] anything you tell your clients that they should set up before they take that leap?

Oh, 100%. I mean, I'm not there to make people take huge risks. it's big enough changing career, and it is really difficult. If you're gonna change career or if you're gonna start a business, they're both really significant moments in your life anyway. I mean, they're huge and they require a lot of energy, but the last thing you need is to have the financial pressure.

Some people-- And look, everybody's different, so it's really difficult to give you one way of doing things, because there are some clients who just will literally run off that cliff and go, "I don't care, I'm just gonna do it." And you're like, " Okay."

Jo Glynn-Smith: when 

Juliet Fallowfield: you're made redundant. 

I was also made redundant. I didn't feel I had a choice 'cause it was COVID, and I just thought, "I'm not gonna be , able to get another job." So within my 72 hours, I'd founded the business and put it on LinkedIn, so I couldn't back out. And I look back and go, "That was really rash.

Don't do that." Like, but also who cares who's looking? No one else cares but me. Go for it. And I also didn't have kids. I had my mortgage, and I was just determined not to lose that roof over my head. So for me, that was my driver. But w- is, is there practical steps [00:10:00] people should take,

Yeah. so I would say to any client, if they're in work and it's no longer serving them, or they're just feeling completely burnt out or demotivated, or they've got something they've always wanted to do and they're scared that time's running out and they want to try it. So I do get them to do the exercise of looking at that kind of- financial runway, basically.

And everybody's situations are different. So if you've got, for example, if you're living with a partner, is it possible that your mortgage and your bills and whatever other responsibilities you have are covered in the time it might take for you to start something new? And I always say that time is at least two years, and I know that sounds like a long time, but it may be that you've been doing something as a side hustle and you're ready to launch, in which case the runway is shorter.

But it may be that you're retraining. I've got clients who've retrained as psychotherapists. That's a four-year course. So you've got to work out how are you gonna do that and work, or do you have enough financial support to be able to do that and not work? Maybe you could do it quicker. So it really depends on your circumstance.

[00:11:00] Some people have savings, some people don't. Some people have, I've worked with people who are coming into pension, and they've got some money coming in as well. Have your children left home? Do you still have children that you're kind of paying for on a sort of day-to-day basis? So every single person's situation is different.

So I ask them to spend time looking at their financial runway and what is possible for them. So then once we've got that in terms of timing, like I could last a year without any income, or I could last six months, or I could last two years. once we've got that, then it's like, okay, now we know what we're playing with, then we can work backwards from that and see what is possible.

So depending on that. And if it's a retrain, I chose coaching partly because I knew I had two years where I didn't need to make an income, partly because I got very well compensated through my redundancy and I had some savings. And because we were in COVID, we weren't spending nearly as much as we would do normally.

I knew that I had this time, and I used every single penny [00:12:00] of the savings that I had in that two years to set up my business, and then I was off and making money. but it wasn't as much as I had before, for sure. Like you said, it's a rollercoaster. Um, so once I knew that, then I was like, okay, well, if I'm gonna do a qualification, what can I do that's gonna fit in that time?

So there's no point saying I want to do a four-year degree or course if you've only got a year. So you're gonna have to work around that, or you're gonna have to look at the job that you're currently in and change your mindset around that job. So rather than saying, "This job no longer fits me, I hate it," if it's a relatively stable job, could you look at it as that's the foundation that's allowing you to step into your next career and do the job, but maybe make a little bit more space for you to retrain in your spare time, and that will allow you to springboard off. But I'd never recommend to a client that they just leave and then think about it.

So knowing your numbers both in time and in money,

so the number one thing is knowing your numbers, right? So knowing what you've got to play with. The number two [00:13:00] thing is doing some research. 

Jo Glynn-Smith: Mm. 

Juliet Fallowfield: need to do the self-awareness piece. So for example, if you're saying, " I hate this career that I've been in for 25 years. It's, I just can't do it anymore."

What is it about the career that you can't do anymore? ' Cause you'll probably find that it's like 50% of things you don't enjoy and 50% you still do. Like a lot of people say to me, "Oh, I love the people. I love working, you know, with the energy of the people, and I love this part, but I just hate this part of my job."

And so I get them to do lists, like what isn't serving you, i.e. what should we avoid in the future or could we do less of in the future? And what really does still serve you, and maybe we could do more of that, or maybe that's an important part, a non-negotiable of what you do next. So if you really love people and working in teams, I would suggest that maybe being an entrepreneur is not a great way to go unless you've got a business partner or a co-founder, because you might find that really lonely and difficult to do.

you and I know it's a very lonely business working by yourself, at the beginning. so there's, it's looking [00:14:00] at that. So finance and then doing your research and doing the self-awareness piece, really working out what it is that you think you want more of, what you'd like to leave behind.

So what drains you, what energizes you, all of those exercises. And then the research piece after that, which is about speaking to anybody who is doing something that you think you want to do. So, you know, if you wanna become a yoga teacher, if you wanna start a gym, if you want to start a drinks business, if you want to go into wine and you've been in finance, whatever it is, find some people to talk to and get as much information out of them as possible.

And what we find is that everybody is happy to offer some advice when it comes to talking about themselves. So that's not difficult to do, but don't just second guess and don't spend a lot of time talking to the robots thinking that that's all your answers. We need to speak to real people doing the jobs.

What was their experience? What were their challenges? What do they love about it? What could they do with more help? And just really gather your insights and all of that you can do while you're still employed if you have that opportunity. If, like us, you're made [00:15:00] redundant, then it's a much faster,

Yeah.

it's a much faster process and you may be responding to, you're sort of triggered by what's going on and you're responding quickly.

but if you're in employment, then you've got the luxury of that, so you have to do anything. And then you might get to the end of that process. Sometimes I get to the end of that process with a client and they're like, "I think I'm just gonna get another job." You're like, "Great, then you've discovered what you need to do."

Well, at least you're sure of it then as well. And I think that's-- it's so interesting you say that because I often thought, it's like, "Why have I ended up in communications? I just don't think I fit here." And I rebelled and pushed against it, but kept doing it and doing it well and getting promoted. But now it's an integral part of my business, and it's now led me into podcasting.

So if I'd shunned it completely, I'd have missed out on this whole spectrum of amazing work that I get to do now. But I kind of learnt by doing, and I wish I'd learnt by working with a coach instead, who kind of put it in a nice structured way. 'Cause I think learning by doing is difficult because you're not ever sure until after the fact.

But on that, how does somebody work out what transferable skills [00:16:00] they have from their old world that they can take into their new world?

So once you've done those exercises, particularly the one around research, you might think you want to go and do something that is so different to what you've been doing. and certainly I interview and work with people all the time who are going from one extreme to another.

but you actually find there are some basic, particularly when it comes to running a business, there are skills that are totally transferable, whether it is back to your communication skills, that's vital. whether it is that you're brilliant at running a P&L or that you're really good at new business, or you're really good at setting up processes.

they can be applied to a number of things. If you're going from city finance to yoga, then you might have to retrain, you know? But it means that you are also capable of probably setting up a really good small business, reaching out to the right people, making sure your numbers work, knowing how many, people you need signing up for your classes.

So there are so many skills that you can transfer. There are some things that you might have to learn and anyway, [00:17:00] our culture nowadays, if you want to be a successful leader, we're continually learning because with AI, you know, we've got something new we could learn every single day.

We can't stop. So I think for that transition, we have to also adopt a mindset of growth and learning anyway. So, but your skills are never, ever void. I mean, even I've worked with somebody who was a stay-at-home mom for 25 years, and then set up a business in her late 40s.

and she had the same question, like, "What do I know?" But she's been budgeting a house. She's been running her kids', diaries. yeah, I mean, she's been doing all of that stuff. She's been navigating all of these things, moving house many times, you know, and all of those skills are still transferable into something else.

So, she's not gonna be a doctor at that point unless she retrains, but she can certainly run a basic P&L and organize things, and have organizational skills and be successful at that.

Well, enjoy using them. Once you know what your skills are, it sort of-- and you know you're on the [00:18:00] right path, it's, actual pleasure to go, "I'm doing the right thing with the right people at the right time." And you can take pride in you're not wasting time and you're not wasting energy,

But I would say, you're right. But I would also say that the thing that is hardest is self-confidence and

self belief Oh my God, yes.

I, I would say it's not really the sc- we can learn anything. You can learn anything. You may be good at some things and not so good at others. You may have preferences in certain areas and not in others, and we all have that in every job that we do.

In a large organization, most of us are sl- slightly shadowed by being weak in certain areas because we, we can hide behind other people. when you're exposed and you suddenly run a business, there's nowhere to hide anymore. And so you have to lean into doing things that you perhaps would, delegate, so, you know, the things that you delegated were often the things that you didn't want to do yourself, right? And you take on the things that you enjoyed. when you run a business, you can't do that anymore.

But self-confidence, self-belief, if you don't have any, or if you've come out of a situation where that has been dramatically eroded, [00:19:00] as with some of my clients. So let's say they've gone through a very difficult exit process, or let's say they've left through the fact that they've been bullied off the board or they've been bullied out of their job, those things are really low.

And so that's when it does really help to work with a coach so we can build that back up again, rooted in your experience, rooted in the facts around your previous successes, and hopefully help them face things, with an element of shoulders back, 

Well, I like that 'cause you're building it up based off fact. It's not sort of someone going, "Yeah, you're great." It's actually, "Look at what you've achieved. This is why you're great, and this is why you can do it." Because I think a lot of people, the founder world is very glamorized, and it's a lot of sort of beating on your chest of like, "I'm a founder, I'm an entrepreneur."

It's like you're actually a business owner, and actually Thea Brooke from episode two weeks ago was saying this. It's like I'm trying to make- Being a business owner is sexy again because that's, that's what matters. But you need to have that self-belief and that self-confidence, 'cause if you don't believe in your business, no one else is going to.

So that resilience piece is huge, [00:20:00] which no one ever talks about when you start a company. having support in place and actually on that, we're always told to follow our passion and do something that you love and if you're gonna become an entrepreneur or founder or business owner, we should be doing something we're deeply passionate about.

And for me, it was teaching founders how to do their own PR or teaching people how to produce their own podcast and passing that skill on is something that excited me, but also seeing the joy in clients' eyes as well is thrilling. But how, as a coach who, who's built your business on doing your passion, where does that advice fall down?

And the most honest framing you could give your clients around that?

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You want to learn how to do it yourself. We teach you everything that you need to get up and [00:21:00] running with your own podcast show, and so much more. Just DM us at hello at Fallowfield Mason to book your spot. So I go back to the Ikigai model every time because I think it works the best, really. So it's, what you love, what the world needs, what you can get paid for, but what you're good at. Because what you love and what you're good at are not necessarily the same thing. I might love gardening because it gets me out of the house and away from all the noise, but I wouldn't say I'm that good at it.

Juliet Fallowfield: Actually the same with running. I love running because I love being outside, and I love getting away from everything and being able to run and, you know. But I, I'm rubbish at running, really. I just like doing it. So that's really critical, I think. And I think women don't like talking about money, and it was a really interesting exercise, actually, when I was training, coaching training, and we would get put into these groups, sort of support groups, and I would be very focused on how I was gonna make money out of this.

And everybody else was very vague. And I said, "Guys, come on, you've got... This is a business. We're going into business. You've got to work [00:22:00] out what is the minimum amount you need to make in a week to survive. Like, otherwise, what's the point?" And people were really underplaying what their value was. And I went in quite strong from the beginning because I knew I had so much value to give my clients.

Anybody with a marketing comms background has so much value to give people, because we have such a multiple of skills when you've done that kind of work. even when I've worked with clients in engineering or in the city where I felt a little bit intimidated by getting one of those clients, what I found was my creative thinking and all those skills I pulled from my past, they just thought it was amazing, because of course it helps them think, and it allows them to move forward really quickly.

So I think that's the model I always go back to. Like, yes, it's great if you can find something that you really love that was always your passion, but most people have to get paid for it. So you've got to also serve the world with something they need.

Why are lots of business owners terrible about talking about money? 'Cause for me, I thrive off of P&L, profit and loss sheet. I [00:23:00] love looking at numbers. I'm fascinated with our margins and 'cause we're a service-based business, how much we can charge, what the market dictates we should charge, and that's why I obviously can struggle with PR sometimes 'cause nobody wants to pay for it, but everybody wants it.

But why are typically British people bad at talking about money, 

I just think it's not in our culture. I trained with an American company, so my coaching training was with an American company. there is no holds barred when it comes to talking about money. It doesn't matter how mu- I mean, they, they, the more the better.

They'll talk about it, and they're really focused on it. And I suppose from a British perspective, we'd look at it and think it's, that's quite bad taste,

Yeah.

to talk about money, 'cause w-we never do. You'd never ask, your friend how much they bought their house for, or you'd go and look it up somehow so you could sneakily find out.

But an American would just ask you straight.

I'm 'cause I'll tell people, 'cause I'm proud of it. so also me, it's something, you know, that it, it... But that's what I find interesting, especially, with company accounts on Companies House, people will see my LinkedIn content and go, "You're doing really well." I'm [00:24:00] like, " But you haven't seen my P&L.

How do you know I'm doing well?" And for me, definition of the business doing well was the profit and the loss. But for other people, it could be other factors. How do you define success in your business?

I think a combination of all of those things, really. the thing that I wanted to achieve was I wanted to be able to find a career or start a business that I could live from. I'm not living as well as I was living before, because I'm certainly not making the money I was making in corporate business, and I don't have the same benefits that I had there yet.

But I have every confidence that I will. What I've underestimated was how long it takes to establish a reputation when you've had a reputation doing something else for so long, and I think I was a bit naive about how long that would take. But as soon as it starts to pick up, you know, you can really then see-- It feels quite exciting, actually, because you start to be able to speak to it in such, you know, such an easy manner.

Whereas I think before I was sort of trying to PR myself, [00:25:00] and it feels bit more economies of scale, aren't there? Well, after you've had a business for sort of three to five to six years, it does the talking. You have case studies from the business, not your previous career. But actually on that, identity is such an important part of this, and it's one of the hardest parts to leave behind.

And I noticed when I was at Chanel, I was Jules from Chanel, and my friend's like: "Oh, this is Jules. She works at Chanel." It's like, I can just be Jules on the weekend, and leaving those big brands behind, I suddenly thought, "God, who am I to think I can do this?" How do you help people through that identity loss before that new identity has arrived?

'Cause it does take time to build a business.

Yeah, it really does. And it's one of the hardest things that people find it so difficult. understandably, 'cause you've been attached to that title or that business or those set of businesses or that industry for such a long time, and it really-- we do judge people by their work, you know, in the world of work, we do.

Like, where you work is important to other people. Why is that? Well, it's because they can see something for themselves in [00:26:00] that,

Oh, well, my first question was like: "Hang on, you're leaving Chanel? What about Mom's Christmas stocking?"

and I remember those moments where... there's always a business that's more successful than you, and there's always one that's less successful. But in the magazine world, it was really obvious.

So if I, representing Harper's Bazaar, walked into a press day, you'd get lots of attention until Vogue walked in, and then they'd all bugger off and go and speak to the person from Vogue. Why? Because Vogue's more powerful than Harper's Bazaar was back in those days, and now I don't know the situation.

But so that identity is really difficult, particularly if you're in an industry that is very hierarchical, like publishing was in those days. you know, people get very impressed by big brand names. And so, you know, if you go, "Hello, I'm blah blah from..." These days it's probably an AI company or something.

People go, "Wow, how cool." You know, even if you're having a terrible time and the business is horrible and toxic, it doesn't matter. so I think that is the hardest thing to do. So we start with your brand story, your personal brand story. Like once [00:27:00] we've done the awareness work with the clients and we've kind of gone deep to understand who they really are and they've understood who they really are and what's important to them, then we can create the brand story so we can talk to that while we're deciding, or maybe they've already decided they want to start a business or maybe they're transitioning into something completely different.

And then you get used to saying that. You've gotta get used to saying it, like, "I am X from Y," or, "I am this person, I do this." and it will take a lot of time, and you just have to accept that it's gonna take time, because people aren't following your journey as closely as you are. you'll bump into people, they'll remember you.

I still bump into people who will only remember me from, a job four jobs back, what are you doing now?" And then, you tell them and They'll respond in whatever way, whatever lens they're looking at the world through, right?

 I think that's one of the hardest things for most people is if, particularly if you were working somewhere that had significant impact,

Yeah. And I think

Chanel.

I know. Well, that was it, and it's like, God forbid I went to Burberry and people are like, "Oh," and then be standing out on [00:28:00] my own. But that, I think for me, if anyone's listening and is about to take the leap, take the leap because when you start getting testimonials under your own banner, there is nothing more.

Or even an invoice paid. I remember my first invoice was £700, and that £700 had so much more weight to it than any six-figure salary that I'd taken home before, ' cause someone was paying me. They weren't paying the brand, they were paying me to do that, and they were giving me an amazing referral or a testimonial or something.

And that has value in so many other ways that's bigger than money. But don't ignore your money and your numbers and your P&L.

But also just coming back to what we were talking about before, which was your success. What does success look like? You know, I feel so proud of myself that I have lasted for six years without somebody-- Well, I've been paid by clients, but I haven't had a PAYE for this amount of time, and I've managed to keep the roof over our heads.

I've managed to do the things that I need to do with the kids.I've had to make sacrifices, for sure. But would I [00:29:00] give up this experience? Oh my God, not for, maybe for a million pounds, but not for, no, not for anything really, because this has been the largest period of growth in my life, and it's been the period that I am possibly most proud of

And happiest in

And also, can I just say, I think you can probably agree with me on this, that the life that I've built now allows me to meet the most amazing new people, do things that I can decide to do that I've never... You know, you don't have that choice when you work in an office and your day is full of meetings.

It's allowed me to do things that are important to me, like exercise. Like, I can get that in my day, and some weeks I get to the end of the week and I think, "Wow, that was such an amazing week. I made that happen." Like, that's successful, right? That's amazing. You can go, "Wow," you know, 

 that blows me away.

Actually, sometimes it blows me away. I'm like, "I've done this."

But you have to take, and someone told me this early on, you have to take the time out to recognize what you've done. It's like, "I fixed the fucking printer. I did that." [00:30:00] And it's like, I did not know how to do that, and now I know how to do that, and I'm bloody proud of that. The small wins. but you also have to be your biggest cheerleader.

And in, in a bigger company where you've got goals or bonuses or a CEO calling you in going, "Well done on that launch," you've got that external validation. And in our roles from journalists, from PRs, from external stakeholders, everyone's sort of looking and going, "Yep, you project managed that.

When it's your own business, to have to pull your own socks up every day and motivate yourself every day, and then reward with yourself, and then tell yourself, "Well done," it's a lot. And that is probably the thing that falls off the to-do list most.

Although I'm gonna caveat that because the work that I do changes people's lives

Yeah.

in such significant way. I can help somebody move from a place where they were unfulfilled, maybe unhappy, certainly not following any kind of passion, if you want to use that to a place where they can't believe they've got.

they just 

Jo Glynn-Smith: do 

Juliet Fallowfield: tell you 

Jo Glynn-Smith: to get. 

Juliet Fallowfield: And yeah,

to

Well, at the, end of the coaching journey, [00:31:00] they'll be like, "You've changed my life." And for somebody to say to you, it actually makes me feel really emotional. to say to you, "You've changed my life," I never thought in my life I would have impact like that.

And you wouldn't have got that at Harper's Bazaar or Pandora. you had impact, but you wouldn't have changed somebody's life so

obviously. 

somebody's life through changing their wardrobe, 'cause that also does, weirdly, that also has a very significant impact to somebody 'cause it really affects their confidence. but no, I

like this, and, you've shaped your day, your week, your year. And I completely agree. I've had moments where I've had to pinch myself, where a travel journalist friend invited me to go traveling with her on her trip, and I just worked remotely and I was like, "I'm in the Arctic Circle for two weeks and I haven't spent a penny to get here, and I'm continuing my work."

And in fact, we got B Corp audited on Zoom call whilst I was on a cruise in the Arctic going, " Oh my God, this is awesome." And then did a TEDx talk. Who was I to think I would ever do that? And I was like throwing my hat in the ring to do stuff. I'm like, " God, this feels awful," but really [00:32:00] exhilarating. I would never have those opportunities, and albeit in incredible jobs that I had before, but taking-- well, ripping the Band-Aid off and going for it, what's the worst that's gonna happen, I guess?

And what's the best that's gonna happen? But that success metric, it's got to be more about more than money, but money is

No, I mean, look, don't get me wrong, Julia. I really want to make money. I want to have some sense of security for the future. You know, I am not going to get more energy as I get older. hopefully, if I stay fit and healthy, I can keep up a relatively good level of energy, but it's not...

So I need to build up this, you know, I am looking down the road and thinking, "Okay, reputation needs to build. I will have fewer clients in the future, but I'll probably be able to charge more for that because of my experience and my reputation." and that's what happens with coaching. You're very lucky in that sense that you can, as time goes on, you can actually bill more.

And certainly my mentor coach is somebody who I look to and aspire to, who is able to work with one or two clients a year. and it's a different level of [00:33:00] income, right? so I do look at that. But I think I work on the inside of people's lives, and that is an extraordinary privilege,

Yeah.

one that I would never have had before.

And that to me is like, like I, I, I can't even imagine that I'd been doing this. I'm gonna tell you something really weird. About 15 years ago, a tarot card reader, this is gonna sound so batty. But a tarot card reader was doing a tarot card reading and she stopped her reading and she just put her hands down and she said, "I just need to tell you something.

I think you're going to be in some kind of therapy. You're going to be s- like speaking and helping people like a therapist. I can't really picture what that would be." And by the way, coaching wouldn't have existed in s- t- really that long ago, not something that we'd have understood to be a, a job. 

And I remember thinking, "Oh my God, seriously? I mean, she is crap."

I wish you could go back and find her and be like, "Yep."

I wish I could go back and go, "Wow."

She's in her calling.

Yeah, literally. Anyway, sorry, that's a side note.

for a [00:34:00] listener, say they're 48, they're in a corporate role they've outgrown, they're feeling frustrated, disgruntled, they don't know what to do next. What is the one thing you would say they should do now, next, or never in taking that pivot?

I think the first thing they should do is almost like a pros and cons list. What do you love about what you do? What do you not love about what you do? So what's energizing you? What's draining you? It's a really good place to start 'cause it tells you everything about where you are. We get burnt out and exhausted.

It can be because something's happened in your personal life. It can be because the type of industry that you're in doesn't serve older people very well. It can be because you've just been doing it for so long at such a high level that you're just utterly exhausted and you need a break. Sometimes a sabbatical can be good as a change, right?

And so many businesses will offer that. So I think it's like looking at the pros and cons, looking at where your energy is draining, what's taking it away. It's, it may be it's not even the thing at work that's draining it. So I think you need to do that awareness piece first to really understand why you [00:35:00] feel like this.

And then from that you can start to get some insight into what's going on. Sometimes it's the way that we're working that isn't serving us, not the job that we do. So I think it's really important for somebody, especially if they're in a high level job, you know, is the way that you're working, the pace, the intensity, the lack of delegation, the structure's not right, you know.

And I certainly, with founders, we look at that a lot. Like what structure could you create in your business that will serve you better to allow you to do the thing that you're really great at? 'Cause what we know about every job, whether you're a founder or a senior exec is that the more senior you get, the less you're doing the thing that you loved about the company or the job or role in the first place.

You're getting really tied up with other things, often to do with people, politics, that kind of stuff, and that can be really exhausting. So the further you step away from the thing that you actually really enjoy, I think the more tiring it is. So sometimes it's about going back and looking at, "Oh [00:36:00] yeah, I'm not doing that thing anymore.

I don't do that thing anymore. How can I create more of that?" And then we look at is that possible within your role? You know, if you're quite close to retirement, for example, or you're very close to some kind of bonus or, you know, there are loads of things that can tie you into a company, right?

then we need to be practical about it as well. But I think more often than not, it's because we've got so far away from the thing that inspired us in the first place.

then what would you suggest they don't do in terms of the never?

I would never say don't or do. I would just make suggestions because that's my job, is to get them thinking. I would recommend that they didn't make a very dramatic move unless they had to, cause I think it's worth looking at the why first. Like, why am I feeling like this?

Yeah.

What's happened? What's going on that's left me feeling like this?

You know, uninspired, hating Sunday nights, overwhelmed, burnt out, exhausted, rolling their eyes at everybody in [00:37:00] the office because everybody is driving them mental. Like, I think you need to look at that first. The easy thing to do is to walk away from it sometimes, but it's not necessarily the right thing to do, particularly if you don't know what you're gonna do, 

Because it's hard to get a job at certain ages, so you have to be really careful, and I think most people would recognize that. so I would just say don't make a decision without doing the awareness work. Okay, if you want don't, don't make a decision without doing the awareness work.

Perfect.

You need to understand why you're feeling the way you're feeling.

It's so crucial, 'cause then everything else becomes clearer. So our question from our previous guest, which was Thea Brooke, who did an episode on how to be your own CFO, Very interlinked actually, in terms of who you are as a founder, and don't just keep moving on to the next thing.

Work out, optimize the thing that you've got already. and her question was really interesting. She's like: What is the thing that brings you joy in life that you've let slip since you've become self-employed?

I found this question really difficult 'cause I think the opposite has happened to me

So you've brought in more things that give you joy.

I have brought in way more [00:38:00] joy into-- Yeah. I, I'm not trying to be, like, big-headed. I really am not. I love exercise and being outside. I spend more time outside than I ever did before.

I'm able to bring variety into my week, and I, I've not let that go. I haven't let it slip. In fact, I could say I've got more variety now. I get to work across multiple industries, which I would never had access before. so what have I let slip? It's so difficult because I started this journey as COVID hit.

So the things that were important to me pre-COVID, like I'd spend quite a lot on my hair and my clothes. I haven't let it slip, but I'm just not as interested.

Yeah. Everything's changed. I've noticed that. The wardrobe, I'm not commuting five days a week. There's life before COVID and life after

Yeah, so it's a difficult one. what have I let slip? I honestly can't

No, that's fine. And what's your question for our next guest?

Okay, I had to write it down. So my question for your next guest is: If you stripped away everything you should be doing, what would you choose to spend your energy [00:39:00] on?

Okay. ' Cause I always think in the moment like, "Oh God. Oh God, that's really quite a raw question." 

a tough question.

Okay, I'm gonna let you know what our next guests actually, they're sisters from a farming brand in America who've taken the stones from the prune fruit and turned it into a skincare brand.

So they've led their revenue generator through the waste product. So I'm gonna ask them that. Thank you.

It just tells you about what you really want to do.

Oh God, I'm gonna have to go for a walk and think about this one. Thank you. Jo, thank you so much for everything. you're always an inspiration. I always loved our chats, and to be able to record it down and put it on the podcast is an absolute privilege, so thank you so much for your time, as always.

And Juliet, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have a podcast, and you're a fabulous friend, so I, I reciprocate everything that you said. It's been a joy to speak to you today.

Speaker: tune in next week to hear Le Prunier sisters answer her question. And please, please, please, please, please like, subscribe, [00:40:00] rate and review, interact with the podcast somehow through your listening app because it really does make a difference to me, the host, to know that you're there and enjoying it.

Or DM us at hello@fallowfieldmason.com to suggest future guests or questions that you might like answered in your own entrepreneurial journey. Thank you for listening, and I'll speak to you soon.