The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 106: Recharging Through Fly Fishing in Southwest Montana with Shawn Swain
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In this episode we Wadeoutthere with Shawn Swain, from Bozeman Montana. Shawn was introduced to fly fishing and music at an early age and it stuck Shawn now fly fishes every chance he gets at home and on the road while playing mandolin in his band the Kitchen Dwellers.
We discuss the Gallatin River and how fly fishing has become an important part of how Shawn recharges and finds balance with his passion for performing.
You can learn about Shawn and follow his fly fishing adventures on Instagram at: @s.swain_music
To find Shawn's band the Kitchen Dwellers, listen to their music or grab tickets for a concert visit the bands website here:
The Kitchen Dwellers.com
For more fly fishing stories, lessons learned, and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at:
https://wadeoutthere.com/
Sign up for Jason's free email newsletter (WadeOutThere Wednesday) at WadeOutThere.com/Wednesday
In this episode, we wait out there with Sean Swain from Bozeman, Montana. Sean was introduced to fly fishing and music at an early age, and it stuck with him. After a bit of a break, Sean now fly fishes every chance he gets at home and on the road while playing mandolin in his band, The Kitchen Dwellers. We discuss the Gallatin River and how fly fishing has become an important part of how Sean recharges and finds balance with his passion for performing. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shepchuk. At Wade Out There we believe fly fishing is special but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Sean. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me, man.
JasonYeah, I'm excited to talk to you. Ryan Aker was on the show a little while ago, and he recommended that you're a real fishy guy and that I would enjoy talking with you. And uh so I'm pumped to talk to you. And I'm also excited because you're out in Bozeman, Montana, which is I spent a lot of time in that area, sort of, in that in that part of Montana as a kid, so I love I love every chance I get to talk to folks that are in that kind of area selfishly because it brings back memories and such, you know.
SPEAKER_02It sure is uh it's a special spot.
JasonI want you to know I just had lunch and I spent my lunch listening to the kitchen dwellers, and uh it was pretty good stuff, man. I really like it.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, man. Appreciate that. It's uh it's a unique blend of all sorts of genres, mostly bluegrass, I'd say.
JasonYeah, I like that kind of music, and I particularly liked Ebenezer's Winter. Is that uh Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's a good one.
JasonThere's some serious jamming on that one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I uh it it's based off an old bluegrass standard song by Bill Monroe called uh Old Ebenezer Scrooge, and I twisted it into like a mandolin death metal song.
JasonOkay, yeah. Because I I was like, this is some serious mandol, this is no average mandolin player here. This guy's yeah, it was pretty hardcore. I liked it was uh it was good, man.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, thank you. Yeah, we like the uh the edgier side of things, I'd say.
JasonYeah, it was cool. Well, we can talk a little bit more about your music as well, um going forward, but I also wanted to bring something up that that you mentioned earlier, and uh it's a quote, and I want you to tell me if you recognize where it's from. I think you will, but you mind if I read it?
SPEAKER_02Go for it.
JasonAlright. It's part of a larger quote, but here we go. I might never seen 'em, but my common sense tells me the Andes is foothills and the Alps is for children to climb. These here are is God's finest sculptures. There ain't no laws for the brave ones, ain't no asylums for the crazy ones, there ain't no churches exceptin' this right here, and there ain't no priests except in the birds. By God, I are a mountain man, and I'll live till an R or a bullet finds me, and then I'll turn into post and moulder and into further building up of these here mountains, the backbone of the world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's uh that's from Jeremiah Johnson. That's that's Del Gue at the very end of the movie.
JasonI know. If I could tell you how many times my father quoted that to me as a child, I mean I've probably over a hundred times you know that I heard that.
SPEAKER_02Yep, it's one of the greatest monologues. Yeah, he decides to grow his hair back. Uh he's prepared to get scalped and rides off a monologue.
JasonYeah, that's pretty cool, man. And so I when I saw that you were a fan of that, I knew it was gonna be good. Did you ever read the book uh Crow Killer?
SPEAKER_02I haven't actually read the book. I I I should though, because I know that you know that's what he's largely based upon.
JasonYeah, that John Johnson guy. Um But you grew up in the mountains, right? So it's not you you didn't uh you started out in Colorado and moved out to Montana?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I grew up in southwestern Colorado until you ride, and that sits up at about 9,000 feet and it's got scary rivers, lots of elk. Um so yeah, I just I've kind of been in the mountains my whole life, and I d I don't really have a whole lot of plan on leaving. Um it's uh yeah, it's hard to imagine living anywhere else, honestly.
JasonYeah. Well, I I just got out to the mountains in Utah, and I like I told you before the show, I worked in Montana a little bit uh when I was a kid, but I've always wanted to get back to the mountains, so I'm excited to be back in the mountains, and like you said, it's a special, special way to live.
SPEAKER_02Those are big mountains there in the Wasatch.
JasonYeah, yeah, they're pretty close. Did you fly fish in Colorado too?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, so I learned as a small child. Uh my grandfather was uh very, very into it, and he kind of ended up he started out his fly fishing life uh in Connecticut, um on you know the Farmington River and stuff like that, which of which is that area is kind of like considered the birthplace of American fly fishing there in the in the Catskills, and uh and so he brought that with him to Colorado um when my mom moved out there before I was born. And uh he taught me as a young child, but you know, after he passed away uh when I was very young, I I didn't do that much of it, and most most of my life I was focused on skiing or or playing hockey, and uh it really wasn't until I was uh in my later twenties that I had a serious resurgence back in into interest in fly fishing.
JasonI think it's typical for a lot of people to certainly people that I talk to where they they get into it and they have a break and then come back to it. And I think, you know, life happens, you got school and sports and all that comes along with it, it's just not the time for a different season, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yep, and it's I think a lot I I did the same thing with my musical career as well with playing mandolin. I and I think a lot of it has to do with you just kind of go through a phase where you don't want to do uh stuff your parents or your grandparents like. So uh and then you find out it's actually pretty meaningful.
JasonRight. There's a reason why your grandfather was taking you out there, and it wasn't a selfish one, you know.
SPEAKER_02No, certainly not, and I'm I'm very grateful for it today. It it made the you know coming back to it easier, although I had a a lot of bad habits that I had to had to correct from you know being eight years old.
JasonI hear a lot of people say that they got started fli fishing or in the outdoors early from a parent or grandparent, but I think as a a young child, I don't it's it's more rare, I think, for a young child to just go straight into fly fishing, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I I mean I did I did both. I I casted with a little Mickey Mouse spinner rod all the time, but and I can't even specifically remember learning how to cast a fly rod, but I did at some point because throughout periods of my life I knew how to do it.
JasonI'm the same way. And that's why I think I have a lot of bad habits. I'm curious what what bad habits did you have and how did you break them? Or do you still have them?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I still have them depending on how excited I am. But the the worst bad habit I probably had, and and a few friends of mine had had to really coach me on it, is pausing on my on my false cast going back. And it's not quite as bad as it used to be. Um it's uh taking my time was uh probably the thing I had to focus on the most, didn't it? And really making sure that I was letting my line get all the way back before going all the way forward. And I think that we can probably agree that that that accounts for most tangles and situations is just the lack of patience.
JasonYeah, it's certainly something that I struggle with, I think. Less so now, maybe, hopefully. I I don't know if that's accurate or not.
SPEAKER_02It just depends sometimes, you know.
JasonAnd it's different too when I'm nymphing or dry fly fishing. I don't know what your thoughts are on this, but I just it's kind of a different rhythm or you know, it's different feel, and so when I go back and forth, I'm still kind of getting used to the adjustment. Not just in casting too, but other parts, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, just trying to, you know, if you've been you've been hitting nymphing deep runs all day, and you know, you're kind of throwing something heavy, and you're you've got two flies on there, maybe some split shot under a bobber, and the drift is fairly forgiving, I feel like, because of all that weight you've got. And then they start gobbling drives, and you go, you think you're gonna rake the same drift, and you come through and the thing comes skating across the surface. And I think that happens to me quite a bit. I I I'll find myself particularly frustrated in the winter after nymphing deep holes, and then they come up to try to eat like you know, a size 22 blue wing or something, and then it it's it's almost it's really it seems to me to be two completely different art forms, really, in terms of fishing. It's almost like the two different sports.
JasonYeah, I think in a lot of ways, it's a lot of the same problems to solve, but you're solving them so differently that it's very they become unique, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And it's uh I mean I I like everybody likes to, you know, hunt down the big dry fly eat, but on any given day, I I gotta imagine most of what trout are eating is underwater.
JasonYeah, I think that's so I think that's fair to say.
SPEAKER_02I'm I'm somebody who unless they're just consistently smashing my dry always, I'm gonna have a dropper on the at least a dropper, yeah. Yeah, and it it seems to be the most effective. We'll also get a lot of times where they'll you know I'll get a chase on the dry and then they'll change their mind and smash the pertagon that's underneath it or something. And that's that's also just exciting. That's fun to fun to see.
JasonYeah, for sure. Did you have a mentor or anybody that helps you going back into fly fishing as you got back into it?
SPEAKER_02Or yeah, I've had a few. One friend in particular, my friend Alex, who's uh he's a guy here with Sweetwater, um Sweetwater travels in Montana. He uh is somebody I met through music while he was in college in West Virginia uh at a late night house party after a show. Um and then it just like a few years later, I just he happened to be my friend, my my hunting buddy's neighbor here in Montana as a guide. And uh so we just I kind of just went out with him as much as possible, and he really was able to instruct me on slowing those things down, and uh you know he taught me a lot about rowing boats and what flies to use and where fish will be in certain times of the year and all this stuff that I had never really uh really had to consider at all, you know, never really thought about it.
JasonYeah, I think having somebody like that is super important if you want to progress more quickly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then uh it's it's really fun as you know you go to the years later and then they start asking you what you've been doing, and uh you're able to build off each other, and that that's a really fulfilling feeling right there. Yeah. He's like, how would you fish that right there? And like do this, and just that swapping of knowledge from what he originally gave me always feels good.
JasonI would love to have uh a mentor to help me with rowing, yeah, with boat stuff. Oh man, yeah. That is something that like I can row. My brother has a drift boat, and I've talked about on the show before, but I I can row, but man, whenever we plan trips, we do family trips together, like a rendezvous where my dad and my brother and I will go together. Um try and do it twice a year, but I I'm always kind of looking for a str a river that is gonna be forgiving for me. You know, I mean I can get down rivers, but you start I don't mess around with too much like whitewater or things like that.
SPEAKER_02I mean it's it's a very uh it's it's dangerous. It's a dangerous sport. Whitewater. Uh I I wouldn't say I'm a very competent big water rower myself either. Maybe not, maybe competent is around where, but definitely not confident. Um I try to I try to cle keep it within a a class three, probably. But uh, I mean, there is no shortage of very strong boat rowers around Bozeman. And yeah, basically anybody I can go out with can teach me something. And uh and then a lot of stuff you gotta learn by trial by fire, too. And you know, the the funny thing about rowing a boat down a river is you've got all these before you do it, you've got all these ideas in your head on what maneuvers are going to take you where and do what. And they almost always never seem to be. That's almost never how it works out to be. So a lot of the time, you know, the best you gotta get out there and uh kind of get thrown into it a little bit. It's always better when somebody else is on the boat that knows what they're doing.
JasonThat's what I'm saying. Like I'm right at that point where I'm about to dip my toe in some water that's maybe gonna take me outside my comfort zone. And it would be nice to have uh somebody. Or I'd even go with a guide and just I don't even know if you can do that, but I'm sure they'd let you row for a little bit or you know.
SPEAKER_02I think that it's probably they'd probably look they'd probably laugh at me and be like, dude, are you maybe some of them will I'm sure there's some insurance liability too about when clients get on the oars.
JasonYeah, you're right. You probably can't do that.
SPEAKER_02I think the biggest thing I've learned so far in rowing is that on uh you can trust the wave train. So if I'm coming in fast on a bend and I'm in the right spot, but I feel like I'm gonna get pushed into the wall, you know, if you're at the right spot in the wave train on the river, you generally ride through that curve. And I think it took me a while to be comfortable with with getting in that spot, and I would tend to back road through the hydraulic, and uh that can be that can be a lot more dangerous.
JasonYeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. You don't want to get caught in that chute that wraps around.
SPEAKER_02No, you want to you almost want to be right up on the wall, and it it yeah, it's scary going into it, but then if you kind of look at the way the water's going, it's it's pushing from both ways into the center of that wave train, so there's almost no way you're gonna get beached up into that rip-wrap.
JasonRight. You just gotta keep an eye for debris and logs.
SPEAKER_02Keep an eye on that that oar, too. That that bank side ore, it's gotta be shipped forward.
JasonYeah, yeah. Do you have a particular memory from when you started out, either rowing or just fishing in general, where you remember something that was like a breakthrough moment where you really uh it took you to the next level or you progressed a great deal as a flyfisher?
SPEAKER_02You know, I think, yeah, I can remember one day where it was during the big caddis hatch here in Montana, and I was I had hiked up this canyon on the Madison River where you know everybody does it. It's it's crazy crowds, but it's really fun because the fish are just monsters and they're eating lots of stuff. And caddis hatch is like something you'd see on Discovery Channel, and so but you know, there was millions of bugs floating down the river, and I I at this point I was like, why there's guys around me catching fish everywhere? I they're not eating mine, and it took me a day or so to come back, and I went back to the fly shop and I just had a thought, and I was like, Well, what's this thing called the catus pupa here? Or like, what's what is it a merger? And I was like, you know what? So that's the the I'm like the talking, I was like, You're telling me that's the stage of the light before they're a big fly, and he's like, Yeah, and I'm like, Well, they're not eating the top, so I'm gonna put that underneath it. And sure enough, went out the next morning and had one of the better days of fishing at that point in my life ever. I think that that moment of you know, I was walking around myself, I was like, I'm a little bit of a scientist or something.
JasonLike that, that's awesome, man. Yeah, that's cool. I have a blog post about the merger, and I don't remember the I think I don't remember the exact title, but it's something about like the forgotten fly, how to fish the forgotten fly or something, because I was exactly the same. Like I it was like they're either under the water or on the top, and I didn't really it was actually when I started paying attention to and learning more about like the differences in how they were eating on the surface, and I was like, no, they're not really eating on the surface, they're eating else is going on. Yeah, I'm seeing just their backs and stuff, or but um that kind of helped me clue in on the emerger, and I kind of and then I knew about emergers, but I just didn't I just didn't fish them that much, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I mean I still don't even after that moment because I'm not very good at it. I'm not really good at setting that swing. It's always been something that I I need practice at.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I I I would love to just get better at fishing, you know, because I'll just put the emerger of the pupa just below the dry and just kind of fish it like a dropper. But yeah, I want to do it the you know, the true way where you where you swing it through the run. But I I just miss 99% of the time where I end up setting towards the bang on and out of the mouth.
JasonAnd can you talk a little bit more about that?
SPEAKER_02Uh well, you know, a lot of people here in the spring will put like a soft tackle emerger on.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then don't put it on with any indicator. And maybe a split shot, you know, and then they'll just kind of swing that through the run down, and uh it's supposed to be what I was told when I was learning how to do it from a YouTube video. But it's you know, it's a do-nothing method, you know, that the fish just hit it as it comes by, and it's there's so many uh emerging, hatching new insects in the spring that I think that they're all just kind of coming up. And uh, but for some reason I just I can't get that set right. I can't tell when they hit it.
JasonIt's tricky because I feel like for me it's tricky because as it's swinging through, it's coming up on the rise, you're kind of like it's not a deliberate, it's not as deliberate. It's not like there it was, and now I hook set. It's more kind of it's like I'm always surprised. Like I'm so exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And there's been time like I'll go to recast and I'm like, oh, I have a fish on it. I didn't even notice this before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I think you know, I just it's something, it's something I need more practice with. I I would like to do it more than fishing with the bobber, although I have no problem with that.
JasonYeah, I don't either. Uh one thing I did the other day with the emerger that worked for me, I fished um my lead fly was heavy, and then I tied I haven't done a ton of this before this year, but I tied my emerger up higher, so it wasn't off the hook, but it was up in the water column because I tied it to the tippet up in the water column. Oh, okay. Does that make sense? So instead of like coming off the dry fly down, it went off the not really off the nymph, but like up from the nymph.
SPEAKER_02I like that.
JasonYeah, my nymph was, and I've done it with and without like drop shotting. Um, but it's a new way that in this last year I've started to fish uh emergers.
SPEAKER_02It makes sense. Yeah, it's not exactly the swing through thing that you're talking about, but it puts them up in that water column though where the you know the swing throws them up, and I think that's gosh, now thinking about it, I don't know why I don't just like I'm like, I'm gonna try that too. It makes a lot more sense than putting it at the other end of it and then trying to catch it on the swing after your nymph goes by.
JasonWell, I don't know when like it's better to fish the emerger closer to the surface or where in the water column, like what time of year or what. Certainly sometimes I think like in when you're talking or we were both talking about like how it's dry fly and you you why why am I not I mean I don't know how many times that happened to me. Why are they not taking my dry? Why are they not taking my dry? Like, because they're not eating dry, dude.
SPEAKER_02But you're right, yeah. It's because sometimes it's just a blanket of bugs across the surface of the water. And uh, you know, that's that's probably the time to use it if if they're not rising at all. And yeah, and some some absurdly different nymph, too, something that really stands out and might get the attention of something.
JasonAlright, man. Well, you want to talk about the Gallatin? That's kind of your home waters, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally.
JasonUh you moved out there, what, 13 years ago, you said, right? And straight to Bozeman?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I moved up here for college and uh attended college for a little while. And uh then I just kind of stayed, and uh the the music thing took off and became a pretty decent job, and when I you know it just kept me around and uh the gallatins. It's just my favorite spot to fish. It is only 16 minutes from my door here, and it's pretty hard to beat that.
JasonNo, it doesn't get much better than that. That's pretty good. What makes it a special fishery for you? I know we talked a little bit before about some of the seasons and things, but can you go into a little bit more about why Sean likes the Gallatin so much?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean a big factor of it, other than the convenience, um Right.
JasonThat's a big one. That's yeah, that's big.
SPEAKER_02And there's, you know, probably 10 or 12 bridges that you can access this river on just close to town. It's very easy. But uh the way it changes often is uh really fun. So it's a Freestone River, you know, Montana's got a few of those. It makes it special up here. Uh no dam on it, so the water that's in it is what's coming out of the mountain every year with all of its torrential power. And so this year it runoff, we had monumental floods all over southwestern Montana, and the river once again is unrecognizable. It's like a new every stretch I walk up, and I probably walked walked most stretches between most bridges, not you know, in in one day, but over different days, I pretty much walked the whole valley stretch of that river. And at this point, there's nowhere in there that is really the same as last spring, and uh, so it's like relearning a whole bunch of things. It's starting to get pretty warm right now, so it's almost time to lay off of it uh until about late August after all the irrigation is done. But we have quite a bit more water than we've had in the last couple of years.
JasonAnd that's good, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's last year was uh it was dismally low, and uh, I was I was worried that the gallatin, due to the irrigation needs down low, I thought it was gonna run dry. And it didn't, but it was about as close close in the last decade, I would say, as it's been.
JasonThat's too bad, man. But it's good that they got more water this year. We I feel like we did a had a pretty good winter this year up our way as well. And we had some rain too. We had some rain this spring that I guess they didn't get last year, so that was nice. I think you can bring up a good point too about learning the river. Um, because I'm starting to learn the new streams around here, and if the river's changing, that's a big challenge because I'm starting to realize how important that is for my fly fishing game or whatever you want to say. Like, I I really get familiar with it. I get to know like the way it's flowing different sections and and through the seasons too, you can see you know, when I fish it really low, now when I fish it higher, I can I know more kind of what the bottom looks like in certain areas and stuff. So if if that type of thing is changing, that's a whole thing that I really lean on more than I ever did before when I was always a visitor.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's uh I mean it can be. I was out there this morning and there's just entire new bends in the river, like whole since it's a freestone braid, it just kind of rips through the valley. I mean, it's just it's a completely different river. And uh and times you're like, wow, the spot that I really loved last year, or even last sometimes it makes it two years because we don't have a big runoff, but uh you know, it's gone.
JasonAnd I try to now what? Now where do I go?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but like I try to be less frustrated with that and more like all right, yeah, let's use this as a learning experience. And yeah, you know, it now we we have an incredible amount of of deep, deep buckets that were deposited by by all this runoff stone. So I think that the winter fishing down here in the valley is gonna be very fun.
JasonCan you talk a little bit about some of the seasons and how they change and how you fish it differently in the different seasons?
SPEAKER_02Totally. Well, you know, uh the right now, high summer is probably the roughest time of year on on the gallatin. Uh just as the irrigation needs pull a lot of water, it still sees quite a bit of pressure. Um I it kind of, you know, like I was talking earlier, there's three what I consider three dis well, there's four actually distinct sections of the river. We have like the headwaters meadows above Big Sky, and then you have the canyon, and then you have the valley, and then you have the section app pretty much where it confluences with the Missouri River. Um, and it it the canyon stretch, and there's a f there's a number of good springs that feed in just around up in Big Sky. So that canyon pretty much stays flowing all winter long, and it's a very popular winter spot, and crowds can actually be almost an issue in like December or January.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02There's only one other place I know if you think of where that is, and that's in Colorado. Um, but as you get lower, you know, it really starts to space out, and if you can if you can walk, you can put in at any bridge, and if you can walk, you can you can put put the distance on anybody. And here in Montana, we're allowed to uh be anywhere in the river as long as you're under the high water mark. So come winter when that high water mark is really braided, you're left with quite a bit of river almost to yourself. Now you have to be pretty careful uh later in winter when the the ice jams and snow builds up, you don't want to you want to make sure you're sure of where you're walking. But it it stays, I feel like it stays pretty active, and you can catch fish every month of the year in the gallatin. Um, except for actually maybe June. June's hard and gets really big.
JasonYeah. I I when I graduated from school, uh, me and my my best friend, we went and uh we had some time off, and we drove up through Yellowstone, Montana, and Wyoming, and we just fished and camped and stuff. And I had these dreams in my head about oh, we're gonna go up and it's gonna be this awesome, like month-long fly fishing bender. And yeah, I remember walking up to the Gallatin in June, early June, and just there's no way I'm going even down there. Like it's so dangerous.
SPEAKER_02I mean it wearing a life jacket standing next to it. Exactly.
JasonNo, that's exactly perfectly said. Like I felt like I was in danger just watching the river. It was pretty rough.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, right now it's probably below a thousand CFS, and it's just ankle deep at most spots I'd weighed across. So it's drastically different from season to season. Um, the fall is is a really fun time on that river, that's for sure. You know, they the irrigation needs to stop by September. We start getting more fall weather patterns, a little bit of rain. Every once in a while I get a little bit of snow. Uh the river fills up just a little bit more again, and uh those fish, you know, as everybody knows, fish on in the fall are are feisty. And if you get to the right point in the river, um it's actually you know a tributary to the Missouri, which is where some really large fish hang out. So they'll run up the gallatin at certain times of the year too. And the right places you can get pretty lucky and catch yourself, you know, upwards of some about two foot if you're lucky.
JasonOh, that's really cool. Is that your favorite time to fish it, or do you have a favorite time?
SPEAKER_02I like to fish it whenever I can. I'm I'm basically gone too much on tour playing music to really have a uh a favorite time of the year, honestly. I I just uh I have different parts of it that I like to go to at different times of the year, though.
JasonIf you had to fish it only two days in the year, if you only had two days of your choice, which two days would you fish it and how would you fish it?
SPEAKER_02They have to be consecutive.
JasonNo, any two days. It could be as specific as you want.
SPEAKER_02Some people are like October 1st.
JasonOkay, good.
SPEAKER_02And uh I'd probably still be I'd bring two rides, I'd have a streamer ride, and then I'd probably still be fishing with a hopper. Um, really?
JasonOkay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, with with a stone fly or yeah, a stonefly or even a small crayfish pattern below it, depending on what part of the river. That that's what I'd do it then.
JasonAnd then probably so you'd do a a hopper, and then below that you'd put a stone, yeah, like a big hopper with a couple of or a crayfish. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, depending on where I was in the river. You know, down low, there's quite a bit of crayfish on that river that are all over the Missouri. In the Missouri, you get some size of lobster, basically. So that's that. And then I gotta think of the other time. I mean, really, honestly, maybe like January. Yes. Yeah, January is be it's when it's uh all those fish are stacked up in those holes that are pretty easy to find. And if you can find where some of the spring creeks feed in, it's just nuts. And um those take a lot of work, and that's fine. But uh probably January, because that's before the big ice jams fill up and make river passage really difficult, and for the fish are in the winter holes.
JasonWhen you say they can be pretty hard, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02Uh they're just hard to they're hard to locate if you don't know what you're looking for.
JasonOh, I gotcha.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and they're uh, you know, they're just just little bubbles that pop up on the in the corners of river bends and stuff.
JasonAnd oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there's generally uh, you know, if like if you're walking up the river and you look down like, whoa, it looks like a fish tank and Walmart in there. There's a lot of green and blue and stuff. It's usually a sign that one of those springs is bubbling up in there.
JasonAnd I thought you were talking about like springs like or creeks coming off the mountains and stuff, but oh yeah, those two, those are a little less secret though, generally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright. Uh what's something you learned on the Gallatin recently? Or relearned. I relearned a lot of things when I go out there.
SPEAKER_02I learned yeah, um, let's see. I mean, on a number of things. Um the other day I was out there and I was fishing a really clear pool to where I could see you know a whole pile of fish. And uh I learned that day that the wrong color of stone flies is spooking fish out of holes in there.
JasonReally?
SPEAKER_02Which is weird. Um because I well, I mean, maybe it happens all the time. I just never like I'm in that clear of a pool to notice, I guess. And at first I thought it was just my casting, which is easy to guess, but then I changed up the color of the fly and none of them spooked, and I actually got a couple to eat it. It was uh it was so I learned that the the color, I guess, is uh is more effective. Affects things more than I really ever thought. Never really, you know, and I always gave more presentation, but the color definitely seemed to affect it there.
JasonI am someone who thinks highly of presentation, probably more than fly selection, but I never discount it because you have those days when you f you switch flies and then everything turns on, and it's I'm not doing anything different. I mean, I'm you know, the the the obvious change that was made is that I changed my fly, and so I think that that can hurt me sometimes too, because then I think, well, that happened that one time, so maybe I need to keep searching.
SPEAKER_02I'm with you. I think that most of the time, if I'm nymphing, especially, it's usually not a matter of what my nymph is, and it's more about like how I'm riding it.
JasonYeah. Do you have a most memorable fish on the Gallanton that you want to talk about?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, last summer I was fishing with my buddy Gavin, and I uh I caught a 21-inch brown on Hopper. Um, and that was great. But what made it memorable is that we came back three and a half weeks later and I went to the same hole and I caught him again. So I've got pictures of him that can prove that he's the same fish, you know.
JasonI was gonna ask you about that specifically, actually.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we've got we've got the photos. Uh he has some pretty distinct markings on him, and I held him the same way. Um I thought it was the same fish, and he thought he when I as soon as I hooked into him, he knew it. It came up and he's like, That's the same fish. And uh I didn't believe him, and then we compared the photos later and it was uh it was kind of ridiculous. I've done that a few times now with with browns.
JasonSame area. I've heard that you know brown trout have are really kind of um territorial, yeah. Yeah, they like that that place.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
JasonIt makes me want to go back to the places that I've that I've caught 'em.
SPEAKER_02It's so it's happened to me now three times where I've caught the same fish a few weeks apart in the same hole. So it I think it adds some merit to that. They're usually bigger ones too, you know, because they're taking the territory.
JasonI'm gonna ask you about this because I just I've been writing a I just wrote a article about it, but do you find on the Gallatin that when you get into some of these bigger fish they have kind of habits that they they fight similar ways? Like for that fish that you caught, do you remember did he fight similarly? Or do you Oh man.
SPEAKER_02I that's why my friend knew it was the same fish. He did the same exact moves.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And we actually made the second time easier because he the first time I almost lost him in this you know beaver mess that he had been trying to run into. Second time I hooked up with him, we knew after he made this dart turn he was headed for that, and I was able to turn him out of there. And so he was trying to do the exact same thing.
JasonYeah.
SPEAKER_02And that was definitely cool to see.
JasonIt's been fun for me to start to see some of that and realize that okay, these guys have a program that they're running here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they've you know, most of them you can you can look at their heads and most of those bigger fish have been caught before. You know, so they they they know it in the I've had a couple that you know they just they hit it and they run straight into the big current, take a left downstream, and then they're gone forever, and then just you don't even feel it when they break off.
JasonWell, let's let's go back to the seasons just a little bit, because I want to find out from you. Typically I ask uh do you tie flies at all?
SPEAKER_02Or uh, you know, every once in a while I will try to get into it, but I don't find the great joy in it that some do.
JasonThat's fine. I don't know how much joy I get in it, but but I do tie from time to time. If you if I was coming out to fish the gallatin, how about just uh one fly that you think is kind of a good fly to bring with me that's not too difficult to tie for each season?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, I mean one or two, whatever's but March through all of the fall, any color pats rubber like the pats, that's not too tough.
JasonI like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's gonna fish every day.
JasonYeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, I start to notice that working in around March. I think the stone flies start molting then, and then for the rest of the year, if you want to catch fish, you can use a San Juan worm. But really, uh a pheasant tail is also, you know, the very effective. I like the slim pheasants below uh rubber leg, you know, without the bead head.
JasonI like slim pheasants too. Dark, real, yeah, real dark skinny. Um because when I turn over rocks, it seems like that's they're all like dark colored, usually. They're they're most of the time they're like a dark, dark brown or blackish.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. They're skinny. Well, that's actually Ryan ties a fly that he invented that's just got like a he calls it the bow buster. I'd recommend that one. I can't tell you what it is, though. The bow buster. You'll have to ask him. You'll have to ask him.
JasonHe'll have to be on again. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's just very, very natural. Um, and I think that's a really effective here. Um the rivers, I wouldn't say the rivers are like heavily over pressured to the point of like pure destruction around here yet. But we have a lot of um people who come here and they want to get out and check it out, try it out on the river, and that's awesome. Like, I I'm all for people getting out there. And a lot of the the fly shops are a hand in people probably the flashiest stuff, yeah. Um, and people are picking out their own stuff, and that stuff catches fishermen more than it catches fish sometimes. So I think the the more natural I can go, the better I seem to do. Yeah. Um I've I've even started to experiment a little bit recently with the more realistic looking nymphs, uh, which I always discredited. And one of my friends who's a guide here, I bought a bunch of, and he's like, Those are stupid. He's like, those aren't gonna work. And uh I I caught a real nice brown on one this morning, so they are seeming to work.
JasonWhat are these? These are these are nymph patterns that are um like lifelike, not they have like real detail.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they're they're really detailed. Uh they don't they're not that durable. So you catch a couple of fish and uh they do tend to start to fall apart, but they I mean if you put one of these things next to if you just search real, there's a number of people who are doing them, so just Google realistic stone flies or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02They look exactly like a stone fly, and um I think it adds a little bit of edge. I do think there's a benefit to giving it a little twitch in the water too when it's looking like that. There's because there's less hair and feathers involved to move on its own.
JasonUh yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I'm still figuring out how to fish them, but I think I think they'll be, you know, I now I just have a chip on my shoulder with my buddy too. I'm like, I gotta catch fish with this.
JasonSure, yeah, of course you do. That's something about soft hackle that I I've learned as well, is that those fibers kind of help it move around, you know, like kind of kind of help it in the water. So I think that's cool. Anything that I can do to help me out when it doesn't have to be the perfect, perfect dead drift, that's that's good for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. I know I catch myself sometimes trying to get too perfect with it and like adding a lot of micromens and like squiggles and a lot, and then like, dude, just adding drag.
JasonYeah, yeah. Like keep it simple. Or throw a streamer and not worry about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I I've I can't tell you how many times I've like nimped a run to absolute oblivion where I could just smash my head against the wall and got nothing, and then I just throw a streamer and the water just explodes right there. Like it happens almost every time.
JasonYeah. Do you have a particular streamer you like to fish?
SPEAKER_02Uh on the gallatin, yeah. Actually, the sculptzilla is very effective if you're not running a sinking line. And a lot of that water is manageable without a sinking line. But I do like to put the poly leaders on. I think it helps to get it down there. Okay. Um, it's a pretty fast-moving water, so it's getting your streamer low without assistance can be kind of a pain.
JasonFor people that don't know, can you talk about the poly leader? Because I don't know that everybody.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. The polyliter, um, you know, it's just like a just a leader you buy, but it's a sinking leader. Um, and so it's you can if you don't want to put a whole sinking line on your on your reel, uh, you can just cut your leader, add that on an entire streamer to that, and for you know, anything seven, eight feet, it's gonna do it. I if for anything like really big, like them up on the mow or the yellowstone or something, you're gonna probably want a full sinking line. But uh it's it's really effective on the smaller waters. And you can I use one over and over and over and over again. They're they're not super cheap, you know, they're like 15 bucks for one of them, but um so long as you're adding some tippet to the end of that thing, you can use it a million times. They're they're pretty cool. Uh airflow uh makes makes the one I really like.
JasonOkay, cool. How do you manage that, or do you just kind of have one rig set up? Or I mean, how do you manage I guess the changing back and forth? Like, okay, I'm gonna fish this because I want to get my streamer down, maybe, but uh, now I'm fishing dries or something like that.
SPEAKER_02I'll sadly just like have a pocket full of trash at the end of the day and and sp and end up using two liters.
JasonOkay.
SPEAKER_02Um, so it's it's it's more like a a biting a buy and cry situation. But honestly, if I throw the poly leader on, I've usually I'm not often going out streamer fishing from the get-go. And if I am, I'm bringing a rod set up for that sometimes. So usually streamer fishing tends to be my last resort. So if I throw that poly leader on, it's just I'm just casual at that point.
JasonOh, that's fair enough. Let's talk about your music, man. Totally. Mandolin and the band and all that stuff. We talked a little bit before the show about it, but um how does fly fishing kind of relate to your music or how do they how do you interact with the two?
SPEAKER_02Totally. Well uh Um one of the cool things about fly fishing, as we know, is you can almost do it everywhere. You can find somewhere to do it, some species to target, somewhere to do it. So being on tour, it's kind of nice with the days off to look to that. And then it's also, I think the biggest thing for me is that it's it's so completely removed from the world of performance that it is just so attractive to me. Um I love performing and I love making my career out of music, but it is uh it is exhausting, it drains a lot of your energy to uh be in front of people every night in a new city, and uh and you want to give it your all because those people paid good money to be there and you care and they care. So, you know, as we know, fly fishing is just something where you can actually go out on the river and remove yourself from all of the negativity in your life, um, and the positivity, you can just remove yourself, yeah. And I think for me, that is a very important recharge, and um it's it's necessary. I got home late last night from a festival in Oregon and I woke up at 6 a.m. and I just couldn't help it, but I dragged myself out to the river and felt right. I didn't I didn't feel like I needed more rest, but you know, in other things in life I do. It just there's something about it, you know, that just makes us all feel a little bit more sound of mind, I think. Even if you're leaving the river really frustrated, it's just it's uh it's a channeling of some energy at the very least.
JasonUh for sure. I totally agree with that. And I think that many people, regardless of their profession, you know, any that that that it helps them in those ways. That I think you spoke to pretty well there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's um myself included and people I know who have you know struggle with different anxieties and situations with mental health, you know, crises, whatever hits us in life. Uh fishing has been like is it's really been it's really been helpful for for for almost everybody I know who's gotten into it. It's it's almost it's almost hard to ignore. It's like it's it's almost should be prescribed as uh as therapy almost, you know. It's I'd rather I'd rather go to the river than and take any medication, it's much better.
JasonI agree. I think that there's that's part of the reason why a lot of these organizations exist. And I've talked to many of them on the show, you know. Yep. And I've talked about this before, but you know, there's a lot of these veterans or people dealing with um diseases and things, you know, that this is their deal, this is why they do it, and they don't do it just because it's fun to show somebody a good time on the river, which it probably is, but I just think that there's a lot of science to it as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I uh somebody actually linked me an article on Facebook, and I really wish that I had some way to know it was a really long time ago. It was actually it was uh a friend of mine was talking about how he how fly fishing had helped him so much, and uh, you know, I was commenting back and forth on his thing, and then somebody linked us an article about uh how one doctor out there had uh found the importance in fly fishing, and and mostly his study was done with uh you know 30 to 45-year-old males, but it was believed that you know it just there's something about it, and they're not he wasn't sure what the connection was on why, but it just really makes people really put some to ease. And uh and I really wish I could remember more about that article.
JasonYeah. Um, well, I know there's some books out there that I've had people on the show mention before, so maybe I'll I'll link to some of those books in the show notes. So if anyone's listening, they can go look that up. But it it talks about some of the things that we're describing in a more you know analytical way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
JasonI think some of them have to do with water in general, too, not just specifically fly fishing, which kind of gets to the do I go to the river to be on the river or am I trying to catch fish, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. There's uh there's a book on the coffee table that was both belongs to my old roommate, the house I used to live in called Learning from the Water, that talks about that. And then I had a book in college called Trout Bum that was more of a guy's autobiographical um story and his his journey with fly fishing and uh his coming to find himself basically. And I really liked I remember one of the opening lines of the book is you never lose a fish, it's just a long distance release. And it's just a good philosophy to try to live by.
JasonYeah. Well, I think you're correct. And especially now that I've been thinking about it, you know, being in this high energy environment performing, yeah. I could totally see how that is super useful. So that's awesome that you found that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's um gotta take a break, right?
JasonYou gotta just chill out a little bit because I mean when you're playing Ebenezer's Winter, like you're you're jamming hard, dude.
SPEAKER_02It's it's uh yeah, we put a lot of energy into that. You gotta find some way to give yourself some energy back. And man, like catching a 20-inch brown in the morning on a size 18-inch scud this morning was a way to get my energy back, that's for sure.
JasonWhat about the benefits of it, like tactically, selfishly, I guess I'm asking, but you you you know, you like you said, you travel around, you must fish all kinds of awesome different places and learn a ton and be able to bring it back to your home waters too.
SPEAKER_02You know, I've I wish I got to fish a ton of different places, but I have gotten to fish quite a few. Um and what I have learned when it comes to trout, especially if there's uh if it's with tailwater versus freestone, is that uh, you know, we're coming back to the presentation thing, but trout seem to eat the same stuff in Pennsylvania as they do in Montana and in North Carolina as they do in Colorado, especially on the tailwaters. So it is, I guess I it's less of me than less learning from where I've been and more feeling confident in taking tactics that I've developed on my own at home and then putting them to use, you know, like in North Carolina and then catching fish and being like, wow, that was cool. Um, and then just drawing the the connection to the greater the ecosystems and then and how relatable a river in the Rocky Mountains can be to one in the Appalachians, and um it it's just it's cool to see the similarities in the ecosystems that first glance look vastly different.
JasonDo you think it's possible for people that are traveling? Because there's a ton of people that travel for work. I mean, what are some of the logistics that you have to get over the hump to make that happen, or is it pretty seamless for you? Because it if I'm on a trip, you know, I'm in a hotel and I guess I don't maybe have a I don't know how much time is required type of thing, but uh is that something you think that a lot of people could do if they just put a little energy into it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I definitely do. Um I've been you know, it it's really easy to bring your fly rod and you know, just the little bit of you can bring a little hip pack that's about yay big and you can carry that on a plane anywhere you want. And um I I just I kind of I kind of feel like if you just do a little bit of research, there's almost a fly shop in every town in America. And whether they're fishing for smallmouth or you know, you're fishing for Atlantic salmon and and giant brook trout in Maine, or you're fishing for trout in Montana and Utah, or you know, steelhead on the West Coast, there's there's opportunities everywhere. And I think that yeah, I think that it's uh it's really easy to get out and do it. I think I think the the biggest hurdle is been for me is transportation though. It's like you know, you get to this city and you're like, okay, how am I gonna get out to this river? Um, and I think that's why a lot of people probably hire a guide service, and that's a good way to do it. But um, I just used uh Turo is the app. I used that when I was in Asheville, and uh I was able to just rent this guy's car for 25 bucks. Turned out he was a fly fisherman too. We had a good job. He let me drive his car up into the mountains, and I brought it back later that night. And it was it was relatively painless. We caught a bunch of fish. I think that it's easy to travel with fishing gear, it's just you know, get into the river when you're in your place and and committing that time if if you want to. It's it's hard, it's easy to be on a work trip and then you know feeling feel overburdened.
JasonSure. I think that's good. I'm glad you brought that up. That's something that I'll look into in the future. Because that is for me, and I would imagine a lot of people truly the the biggest limp fact.
SPEAKER_02How am I gonna get there?
JasonAll right, Sean, before I ask you my last question, how can people find out more about you and your traveling band, the kitchen dwellers, and and follow along on your journey?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, we're super present all over social media. Uh we're I think we're the only ones who have settled on the name kitchen dwellers out there. So if you just type that into any sort of search engine and any sort of media player, it'll probably pop up. And uh we're all over the place, you know. And I we love we love meeting people. And you know, if you're out there and you're listening to this podcast and you love fishing, and you want to talk about fishing, and you come to one of the concerts, I'll be there and I would I'd love to talk about fishing. But um, yeah, we're pretty much on the road 200 days a year, so here's a good 160 chances odd that you can find the band somewhere.
JasonIs there anything in particular that you're excited about with uh the band or fly fishing or both coming up?
SPEAKER_02You know, we uh yeah, actually combo, we get uh take the band down to Mexico this December to do a bluegrass festival there called Strings and Soul with a bunch of other bands. And I'm hoping to get some permit bone fishing in while I'm there.
JasonAlright, that's awesome, man.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, hoping to. It's I'll be busy, but I think I can make it work. There's enough other guys in the bands that are into it that I think we can pull together a trip.
JasonThat sounds good, man. Alright, last question. You ready?
SPEAKER_02Yep.
JasonIf you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical and one more philosophical, what would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?
SPEAKER_02Well, tactically, I would tell myself slow down. Philosophically, I would tell myself I'm probably saying almost slow down too, but I think more of the uh I would say to cherish to cherish all the fish that you find. And uh it took me a long time to stop searching for the bigger one and really just enjoy my time on the water. And I think that yeah, cherish them all, however big, however small.
JasonI like it, dude. That's very musical.
SPEAKER_02I didn't come up with that. Okay, that's on stick.
JasonOkay. Sounds good. Sean, thank you so much for being on the show. I really enjoyed talking with you, and I look forward to hearing more from you musically and following along on your fly fishing, and uh, I'm grateful that I've found come across your music as well because I really like it.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, man. I appreciate it. We really uh appreciate new listeners and new friends. So uh it's it's been great chatting with you.
JasonThanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitoutthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wait Out There.