The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 119: Exploring Wisconsin and Parallels Between Song Writing and Trout Fishing with Adam Greuel
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode we Wadeoutthere with Adam Greuel from Stevens Point, Wisconsin. Adam grew up road tripping to Wyoming for family vacations, where he was introduced to rivers and fishing, which eventually led to picking up a fly rod. He also picked up a guitar and a pen, following his passion for music and songwriting in the band, Horseshoes and Handgrenades.
Adam also guides his home state for trout when he’s not on the road making music.
We discuss the various regions and angling opportunities in Wisconsin, the beauty of exploration and discovery, and how that process fuels his fly fishing and song writing.
You can learn about Adam and follow his fly fishing and musical adventures on Instagram at:
@adamgreuel OR @horseshoesandhandgrenades
To find Adam's band the Horseshoes and Handgrenades, listen to their music or grab tickets for a concert or pick up their latest album visit the bands website here:
Horseshoes and Handgrenades
Also, check out Adams other musical endeavors in the bands The High Hawks, Rucksack Revolution.
To schedule a guided trip with Adam to explore his home state of Wisconsin for trout visit:
Fall Line Outfitters
For more fly fishing stories, lessons learned, and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at:
https://wadeoutthere.com/
Sign up for Jason's free email newsletter (WadeOutThere Wednesday) at WadeOutThere.com/Wednesday
In this episode, we wait out there with Adam Grew from Stevens Point, Wisconsin. Adam Grew up road tripping to Wyoming for family vacations, where he was introduced to rivers and fishing, which eventually led to picking up a fly rod. He also picked up a guitar and a pen, following his passion for music and songwriting in the band Horseshoes and Hand Grenades. Adam also guides his home state for trout when he's not on the road making music. We discussed the various regions and angling opportunities in Wisconsin, the beauty of exploration and discovery, and how that process fuels Adam's fly fishing and songwriting. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shefchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Adam. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for having me, Jason.
JasonI'm excited to talk to you. I so I have I have a list. I have a list of people that I would like to talk to on the show, and you know, the list grows and changes, and it's uh it's a fluid thing. And but when I when I schedule guests, you know, I I have color codes and all this stuff that I use, but I've got so I've got Adam Gruel coming up, and I'm like excited to talk to you, like I said, and I've got multiple I started realizing I've got multiple, like I've got you in multiple places. Yeah. Like, wait a minute, I already thought I already put him on the list or whatever, but I have pretty much every musician I have on the show is like, man, you gotta talk to Adam from Horseshoes and Hand Grenades, which is your band, right? Horseshoes and hand horseshoes and hand grenades. So everybody tell me that I should talk to you, so I'm excited about that.
SPEAKER_00Well, and likewise, Jason, I've found I've found joy on the road. Uh, you know, when you're a musician, you it seems like you your life is mostly traveling. You know, sometimes you play music, but mostly you're traveling, and and I found joy listening to your podcast, so I appreciate that.
JasonWell, thank you. I appreciate you saying that. I would think, yeah, it's funny to think of you guys. I just imagine you just sitting there jamming out playing music all the time, but maybe it's nice to have a break. I think Sean uh Swain was on the show, and he was like, Yeah, man, it takes a lot of energy, and I just decompress.
SPEAKER_00It's uh there's the energy of the travel, but there's also an exuberant amount of loafing.
JasonWell, that's perfect for fly fishing. That's perfect, yeah. Perfect for fly fishing. And the other reason I'm excited to talk to you, uh your music is awesome. And the thing I we talked a little bit about it before the show, but I'm a big harmonica guy. I I love the harmonica, and my dad played the harmonica. He learned to play the harmonica when he was on the railroad back east in New Jersey. And he gave me a harmonica, and it's I've taken it on deployments, and I've I just never I've never been very musical or I've never discovered any part of myself that is musical. But I'd when every time I hear the harmonica in a song or something, I'm always thinking about that gift from my father and how I need to learn how to play the harmonica.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's cool. It's a nice I love how mobile mobile it is. That's where you can take it on the stream. Can't you just imagine being like deep in the backcountry, and suddenly you in the distance you can hear the faint sound of the blues coming, and you look, and it's like this old guy in in waiters there blowing a harmonica tune, and then you know, you it stops and you look back and he's gone. Kind of like a mystical, you're not sure if he was there or not.
JasonThat's right. We should write a song about that, man. We're gonna that's gonna be me one day. Hopefully, I will learn to play the harmonica and I will mystically walk through the river and haunt people with my harmonica music.
SPEAKER_03Right.
JasonUh well, we're gonna I want to talk about songwriting and some of that stuff later on, but uh first I want to ask you how your fly fishing journey began and how you got started in fly fishing, and maybe a little bit about how that uh intertwined or braided into your musical life.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Well, since I can remember, I've enjoyed, you know, broad field fishing.
JasonBroad field fishing? What's that? I don't even know what that means.
SPEAKER_00Any kind, any kind of fishing.
JasonOh, okay, broad spectrum fishing fishing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, kind of just you know, any way of fishing. I early, early memories of being a young boy and doing the bobber worm fishing for bluegills and panfish. I grew up up near the Wisconsin River, uh north of Stevens Point, Wisconsin, and we'd go there. I remember I'd be, you know, fishing with a bobber and a worm, and my mom was uh and still is like obsessed with taking photos, you know, of everything that happens in life. And she would sit there and make notes on the back of the photo of what's happening while I'd be fishing, you know, she'd have a stack of photos, she'd be doing that. So I remember that. But fly fishing, my my dad worked real hard. He worked for the county, he was in planning and zoning, and he had, you know, whatever it was, I think it was like three the two and a half weeks a year or something like that, uh, that he had off. And so we would do like one family trip.
JasonThe family vacation, Griswold itself.
SPEAKER_00Yes, the traditional family vacation. And it we would go out to the Rockies, you know, and that would be like, you know, more often than than not for us, it was in Wyoming because we could jump on I-90, and and it was like the first mountains you would hit were in Wyoming, you know. So I remember being out there, and my dad had, I think in college, gotten, you know, somewhat into fly fishing, and he had a fly rug, and all of his kids were pretty young. So, you know, I don't think I think the idea was that my dad probably thought we weren't quite ready to attempt fly fishing, which may or may not have been true. Uh but he's doing that, and my mom has a friend there named Kochi, and Kochi was a Native American woman. I can't remember what tribe she came from. Uh, but we were like expressing wanting to be fishing, right? There was like this, remember we're in a campground with some like real slow-moving water, you know, you could see these fish rising. So we all were interested in it. Well, Kochi, being that we didn't have rods, just my dad had a rod, she like fashioned these rods out of a tree, tree branches. Okay, and then like she must have had, you know, I don't know if it my dad had it or what, but like some, you know, real heavy mono, like, you know, certainly not what we would call tippet, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And she she tied that onto the end of these branches, and that's what I first remember in terms of like fly fishing, at least the action. In retrospect, it was more like Euro nymphing, you know, where you'd kind of stick it for Tenkura. Tenkura, you know.
JasonYeah, Tenkura, there you are. You're just your intro. You're already a Tenkura guy before you even tenkura, Tenkura.
SPEAKER_00I remember there was we we like dug up some worms, but I remember my dad had some flies too. And we would we would use those too, you know, again, tied on like probably 20-pound mono, whatever it was, you know. And we would guide those through, and out in those lower reaches of the Rockies, there's so many brook trout in there, you know. It's like they're almost well, actually, depending where you are, they're seen as seen as invasive or whatever, non uh non-native, and that's a whole nother issue. But anyhow, it's so easy to catch them. Uh so I remember doing it that way and just falling in love with the whole thing. And then, of course, over time we got actual you know, fly rods, and um we would go to these creeks that were only but, you know, in some cases only two feet wide, but were maybe as deep as as we we were tall that were plum full of brookies, and you kind of dap it in there to catch them, you know.
JasonNo, I've heard people talk about that, you know, as a a full-up fly fishing technique. So way ahead of your time.
SPEAKER_00It was a hoot. It really was. It was a great, great way to grow up and begin to understand what how fly fishing works, you know.
JasonYeah, so I want to ask how you progressed into an actual fly rod with a reel and fly line. But first I gotta ask a couple questions about your mom. Because this it sounds I can't let this go. Super interesting lady here. What is she what is she taking pictures of? Uh and what is she writing on the back? And and then how is how is she friends with this coachy individual? How does that all oh how do they meet up and become friends? And then are are these fishing pictures, or is she just kind of passing the time watching making sure you don't get kidnapped on the river?
SPEAKER_00Oh, everything. My my mom uh documents everything, like, and that was the deal. And I I mean I I'm talking like, yeah, maybe taking photos of us fishing and stuff. There's probably photos of us with Kochi, you know, but she'll document like a friend comes to visit, and there's probably 50 photos of that, you know. And so on the back, so she recalls exactly what's going on in the photo for posterity's sake, she would say, you know, like Jim came to visit for Dwayne's 50th birthday, and neighbor friends Linda and Rhonda came over.
JasonWas she hardcore about it? Was she like, did she get the visualizer to put it up on the wall? Uh, and and did how's she how's she doing with like digital photography these days? You're talking about slides? Yeah, slides. That's what we had. We had a little slide projector thing.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yes. And that still is really kind of cool. I mean, it's very cool. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, like to look back, like there's these photos of my parents. You know, this is before I was born. I think my brother was maybe born, but these crazy photos of them being out at like glacier, and you know, it's just goofy to watch, like the the difference in clothes, and you sometimes see like old fly fly fishing gear. It's like, whoa, that's what they used to use, you know. But yeah, as far as my my mom knowing Kochi, I can't remember how that relationship started. But my mom is a very uh uh she's an extremely friendly and and curious woman and uh just just always uh welcoming, and uh that's kind of her vibe. So a lot of a lot of relationships have opened because of her her being kind of a sweet woman.
JasonAnd when did you get into now you're fly fishing and you've got proper gear?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, you know, I'll say this. Uh you had asked about the challenges, early challenges in fly fishing, which kind of are involved with your question. I remember not understanding like line weights and rod weights and things like that. Like now I look back, I mean, crepes, I bet we were using like nine foot eight weights or something when we were doing that, you know, with like a four-weight line, you know, like I don't think we knew that stuff, you know.
JasonIn fact, but you caught fish. You could still caught some fish.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, we caught a bunch of fish. You know, you know how it is, like it helps when you learn stuff, obviously, but but also like when when you when you're just out there and enthusiastic, you can catch fish too. But you know, it was mostly at that time our our fly fishing was would only occur on these these family trips, right? Yet, you know, like these family trips really became a big part of our like identity as kids because it was such a neat thing. We come back and be able to tell our friends about it and stuff like that. So that really became the foundation for my curiosity of fly fishing was going out west and and messing around out there, and you know, a couple times when we were out there, and again, I'm like a young boy at this time, you know, yeah, we would we would bump into these people that you know were like real hardcore fly fishermen in retrospect. They were like, you know, like we are now, like we're you know, you're pretty obsessed with fly fishing. You go to a place and you're enjoying being out in nature for sure, but you are there to go fly fishing. And I remember talking to these guys and being inspired by them and them giving, giving me, seeing the the fire that I had about it even as a young boy, and like giving me some flies they had tied and things like that, and and then I think what really vaulted uh me into a love of fly fishing was was probably hiking deep away, deep into the wilderness, away from roads and stuff, and experiencing backcountry fly fishing. That sense of adventure was just so intense and so neat, and you'd go in there and you would just be an aw, and you'd see these beautiful places, and uh it's what I love to this day, you know, is fly fishing as a conduit to getting into nature and finding these incredible places that just blow your mind that uh it's hard to believe they exist. In some cases, they're like a couple miles from town, but somehow hid, you know.
JasonYeah, I know what you mean. We talked before the show. Uh, it's just kind of funny you say that. We talked before the show, and I was saying how selfishly I like to have musicians on the show because I'm always discovering this new amazing music, and that's the that's the kind of music I like to listen to when I'm painting in my studio. And so for me, it's um I don't know, it just it makes my experience when I'm painting uh more enjoyable to just know that I know the person. I've talked to them about their music and about their fly fishing background, and I'm painting these fly fishing things. I I don't know, I've just started to grow it's started to grow on me as I've been progressing in my art, but but also we were talking about it's always cool too. I'm like, oh man, I can't believe I didn't know about this musician or this song or this book, and you brought up yeah, and it's like that with exploring the world too. Like every time I go to a new place or I see something new, and it's so true. I tell my kids the world is a big place. I mean, and it's shocking how small our our spot is, and even in the perspective, yeah, even in the United States, there's tons of incredible stuff in the United States. If you had your whole life to travel around the United States, you couldn't see all the beautiful places, meet all the wonderful people, listen to all the wonderful music, you know, read all the books, but then now expand that into like the whole world.
SPEAKER_00And sometimes I feel that way about the county I live in. I would never, you know what I mean? Yeah, I could live my whole life attempting to just just explore this county and and not get there. It's a trap to think about.
JasonYeah, and that's why I'm excited to hear your perspective on it because I feel like you've found music has taken you into those places, discovering you know, you get to travel, see new things, and meet new people, but also fly fishing, you're doing the same. It's it's like a conduit, it's like the vehicle that you use. It's something about fly fishing that sometimes I have to remind myself, and I I don't think everybody understands necessarily, is that it's this also vehicle for adventure that it can be the local stream, and that's cool, that's awesome. But if you want it to be, it can be salt water in South America, it can be the eastern seaboard of the United States, it can be small streams in France, you know. I mean, it it can take you all over the world, you know, and you can go to those places without fly fishing, but it's kind of like the same thing as like you can go be in nature and go to the river and walk around without going fly fishing, but I don't know, I don't go as much. I know that I like to go, I know I like to be there, because even if I'm not catching fish, I like I like that I made that choice and went to the river, but uh I'm not you know, fly fishing gets me there. And when you say your county, I really want to hear about exploring your county and and fishing Wisconsin because it's not something I would think as being like a you know, it's not like a huge fly fishing destination name place, but the more I do this show, the more I learn that there's all these things out there within fly fishing that are amazing fisheries.
SPEAKER_00Well, it blows my mind, man. It always blows my mind like that. I was in uh my girlfriend lives in Nashville. I've got a lot of friends on there. I just got back last night from being down in Nashville uh hanging out with her and and going to my buddy's wedding, who's also big into fly fishing. And you know, I'm I've I've gone fly fishing a number of times out in Nashville, you know. There's a there's a fair amount of places that are relatively well known, you know. But I had gotten to this point where I was like, well gosh, there's only like, you know, there's there's like maybe six destinations that I can think of within like two and a half hours or whatever. Okay, so I had this in my head. Well, then I go to this wedding, and there's all these fly fishing dudes that are there now because my buddy's big into fly fishing, too. And so it's like inevitably after beers get drank and stuff and everybody's chilling around the fire, all the fly fishing BS starts rolling out.
JasonI love it.
SPEAKER_00The next thing I know, I realize there is so many more places to fish than the six that I had thought of.
JasonRight.
SPEAKER_00Like, you know, especially, and then as more beers got into people, then the next thing you knew, I was being told about these spots, and plans were being made to go there together and things like that. And it just made me think, you know, we we sometimes get so pigeonholed in our brain, you know, it's like with our art, you know, you probably um I would guess that there's certain ideas or vibes with your painting that you connect with and that you that you've discovered you can do well, right? And like in my world, uh there's like certain vibes of songs that I know I can construct and write, you know. And I tend to accidentally pigeonhole myself into writing the particular kind of song. And and you have to sort of push yourself to get out of your comfort zone. And I feel like it's a similar concept with fly fishing. If you don't push yourself out of your comfort zone, you don't go try some new waters, you'll never know what's out there, which to bring me back to your question, is totally the thing in Wisconsin, and I think in most states, is that there's fish to be caught, you just gotta go find them.
JasonYou gotta go. I mean, two things about what you said I mean, I love how you put that. And first would be you gotta do the work. Like just like you said, if you don't go, if you don't write, if you don't paint, if you don't do the work, if you don't go fly fishing, then none of those opportunities are going to present themselves to you because you're just physically not in that place. And so that's the first part. And the second part is you mentioned with like my art, I've found that if I do the work Things not necessarily snowball, but they they grow like a tree. Like the the tree grows, and there's more branches and more things and more avenues, and all these opportunities come that you didn't even know about, you know? And maybe you're afraid to do something or make a change because you were I, you know, for some reason you have in your mind that that's not the style of painting that I do, or that's not the kind of music that I do. But eventually enough things open up and you start to find different paths, and you kind of almost have to go down these roads. Like that's the way I feel. And that's the way it's been with Wade Out there. I didn't start a podcast, I started writing, and then painting, and I was blogging, and then it's like, what about this podcast? I could I could talk to a lot of people that think about these things the way I think about them and and share the idea of fly fishing as special but not elite. And and then this became and now I'm talking to you, man. And you know what I mean? Now I want to go to Nashville and go fly fishing. Yeah. Or Wisconsin, you know. So I think that's I just think that's totally appropriate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like one thing leads one thing leads to another, so to speak, you know. It's like it can be so easy to stay, stay comfortable.
JasonYeah. Well, and just making a change, even just even just changing your fly. Like it can be, you know, you want to stick with this fly because that's the one they gave you at the fly shop, and that's which sometimes just absolutely destroys your experience. Right. Or it's the one that worked yesterday or last year or last week or whatever. Or it'll drive you nuts like that. The fish were biting here, but now they're not. But you you just keep doing the same thing, you know. So um, and I think Wisconsin is such a great example of that because of my you know preconceived ideas, and now I'm getting to talk to somebody who's like has this similar mindset of of growth and discovery, and you get to explore this place. So, talk to me a little bit more about Wisconsin and how how that place has branched out for you and shown you opportunities. And I mean, I'm not looking for spots, but I'm definitely interested in what makes it a special fishery for you.
SPEAKER_00So, growing up, like I've mentioned, you know, you're uh we're out there doing our thing in Wyoming. And as I mentioned, those brook trout streams, which in some cases are like overpopulated, they're it's so easy to catch a catch a fish, you know, out there.
JasonWell, you're way up in the mountains too, and yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, way up there, you know what I mean, in these particular overpopulated areas or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00Back here in Wisconsin growing up, I didn't even really know you could trout fish. You know, it's like not something that's like talked about really.
JasonI assume that you can in most places because I've just been surprised so many times.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. Well, you know, little did I know brook trout are native, you know, in the state of Wisconsin, you know, like far northern Wisconsin, there was like epic brook trout fishing, you know, and there's still there still is for sure. Um and you know, a lot of browns were planted, of course. So there's rivers like you've got you know several predominant sort of regions. You've got the the northern Wisconsin stuff, which is like these rivers that are kind of like a mixture of freestones and spring creeks, you know, more freestony though. Um you know, they're like tamarack stained a lot of them. They've got this like cool brown root root beer brown color, like you know, maybe like Yupper Peninsula of Michigan, or like, you know, they're sort of similar in some cases to the celebrated creeks of like northern Michigan, you know, rivers over there. So this cool brown color, really unique. The the populations up there like aren't super high, um, but they're really fun to fish and they're really pretty. And I mean, if you catch the right conditions, as is the case just about anywhere, you can have really, really epic days. Northern Wisconsin's cool, it's not a populated part of the country, you know.
JasonIs that where you're at?
SPEAKER_00Is that where you're kind of of your well Stevens Point is kind of on the the border between what I would call the northern part of the state and the central sands. So the central sands is the next kind of region, and that's that's real sandy country. Like um, Aldo Leopold Sand County Almanac, he wrote that while he was living like 45 minutes south of where I live. Sand County is Adams County, which is the county south of Portage County, where I live. Okay, anyhow, they're a whole nother character of streams because, like I said, super sandy. So up north you get these really rocky rivers, you know. Okay, really fun. Central sands, super sandy, um kind of they can go through swampy areas, but there's a lot of springs in there, you know. So where the springs are, you get that high base flow and you get the cold water, and it's great, you know, and the trout love it. So there's a lot of rivers in the central sands that are really, really nice, and then down, of course, to south southwest Wisconsin is the driftless region.
JasonThat's what I know of, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oodles of Spring Creeks, yeah. Right, and that's that's wonderful too, and that I won't even say too much about because people talk about it, you know. Uh and then when you get down towards like Milwaukee or the Fox Valley, those are all warm water fisheries, right? Um and you know, to some degree, so the central sands are kind of like right in the middle of the state. And if you went due west from the middle of the state, you hit like the northern driftless region, which has a slightly different character than like the traditional driftless region people talk about. But there's a those are trouty waters too, but kind of between the central sands and that northern part of the driftless, a lot of warm water fisheries in there. And typically, if the if it's a large enough river, there should be native muskies and smallmouth and tons of pike, and um, I mean, there's so much water in Wisconsin, it's just nutty, you know. I mean, dude, I've fished strange ditches in central Wisconsin.
JasonStrange ditches?
SPEAKER_00Ditches in farmers' fields. Got it that's that are full of brick rout, you know.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_00Wow, and it's just nutty, you know. Um, and then I've fished, you know, gorgeous rocky rivers in northern Wisconsin, and then the traditional spring creeks, and then this isn't even discussing the Great Lakes tributary fishing, yeah, which is a hoot, too. And that I know basically nothing about.
JasonYou know, like well, that's too bad because I have like 10 questions about the tributary.
SPEAKER_00It's just like I have at some point I'm going to open that can of worms, but there's there's enough worm cans of worms already open here.
JasonSo you yeah, you opened a bunch of cans of worms. Let's let's break it down this way. What how how would you recommend somebody go about exploring the state? Because I mean you you've got all these you said there's water everywhere. Have you just having lived there your whole life, had just bunches of opportunities to to explore it just growing up? Or I well, I use I always like to I like books. So I like Fly Fisherman's Guide to Fill in the Blank State. I don't know if you've had something like that, or is there just fly shops in all of these regions that you could kind of like check out?
SPEAKER_00Kind of all all the above, man. I mean growing up, you go to the water that's near you. I remember fishing in town at the little ponds for bluegills, and I remember doing that with a fly rod, and that was a great time. But yeah, there's literature for sure that you can dig into, and that'll that's helpful for sure. Um, and then there's a number of fly shops. I actually, when I'm not on the road, or if I know I have like a less busy time in the music world, I guide for fall line outfitters out of Stevens Point, Wisconsin.
JasonOh, cool.
SPEAKER_00And they're a relatively new fly shop. So them and there's a fly shop in Madison, Wisconsin called Musky Fool. They're a new fly shop that are quite excellent. Um of course I love fall line outfitters. I guide out of them, and I just think it's the coolest thing. Stevens Point's got a rad fly shop in downtown. That's so those are like newer ones, but there's also you know, the driftless angler down in down in Baroqua, yeah, and then uh somebody who's really been uh like an instrumental guy in the world of fly fishing, uh Tim Landwear. He's got uh a shop called Tight Lines over in De Pierre, Wisconsin, Green Bay area. Um and he, you know, he's he just came out with a book, I think it's called Smallmouth on the Fly or something like that. I I can't can't actually remember the actual name, but but you know, he's he's guys like him and Hunter Dorn from Wisconsin Fly Fishing Company, and those guys have done a lot of writing and have opened doors. So, and those are guys they hang out with. So that's that's where you start start to get to know Waters is you got your friend group who's out there exploring and you're all kind of in it together, you know.
JasonThat's right. And go on go visit some weddings and start having some beers and sit around the fire. That's that's another great way you get to drink beer, you get to celebrate someone's very special day. And uh yeah, so it sounds like each region is big enough that it has its own kind of, you know, you if you find yourself in that area, there's a fly shop that's gonna be able to help you out and put you on it. And then you said that a lot of the places, well, before we were talking on the show, you said that because Wisconsin's a big state, and you get outside these cities, I'm imagining these this could make for long days. Is that something that you enjoy? Does that take you back to like backpacking and stuff in the mountains, or is it a similar experience?
SPEAKER_00Well, my favorite thing is is going to a river that I know has public land that butts up to it and getting off the old beaten path. I mean, it's no secret that if you, you know, you risk it, you get the biscuit, so to speak, and you know, you go and you get some blood, sweat, and tears in a situation, you might just find yourself some great fishing, or you might just get some damn exercise for once, and and uh go to bed tired, which is good.
JasonYeah, it helps you sleep, it helps your uh helps your gut biome. It's good for everything.
SPEAKER_00All that stuff, that's right. Yeah, uh, so yeah, I really enjoy that, man. And I in in Wisconsin, I I've only a few times done like a fishing overnighter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Although I've fantasized about it, and maybe I'll start doing it more, but uh that I've reserved for more backpacking out in the Rockies and getting way, way up there. Um, the other thing is I maybe part of the reason I don't do it is it it the Northwoods of Wisconsin, you can get kind of like lost.
JasonYeah, it's cold. You can get cold up there.
SPEAKER_00And the these days with modern technology and stuff, it's probably pretty hard to get true lost lost. But you know, there's some northern Wisconsin rivers that are rough and rugged there in the Shawamagan National Forest and the Nick Lai.
JasonAnd yeah. Being lost in the woods is no fun, man. It's no fun.
SPEAKER_00Unless you unless you have like some of those real great freeze-dried packages of food and a little burner and a water purifier. Then if you get lost, you'll be fine.
JasonI've been lost in the woods in the mountains elk hunting when I was a kid, teenager. Oh boy. We got lost, and I was scared, man. But and we didn't have any technology back then, right? We had we did have a 150 map, and I mean, we eventually met up with my dad and his dad, but I I went elk hunting in Utah here last week or two weeks ago. I bought the GPS, man. I got I got a GPS. I'm like, I don't care. I'm getting a GPS, I'm not getting lost again.
SPEAKER_00Well, my girlfriend demanded that I uh acquire a spot.
JasonA spot? What's that?
SPEAKER_00Do you know what the spot is? There it's like a sat satellite radio or satellite phone thing that you can like hit rescue me, or you can actually even like send texts from it or whatever. But she's like, if you're gonna keep doing this stuff into the middle of nowhere, and she and she's been along, so she knows that like you know, I I'll look at a waterfall and I'll be like, Well, let's let's just climb that up there because that probably has a lake that might have some beauties in it. Right. If you're gonna be doing that stuff, you're getting one of those damn phones, man.
JasonYeah, yeah. My friend was telling me a story about a guy who was out backcountry and he shot an elk and he ripped the muscle off his leg and he was immobile. Couldn't couldn't go. Oh my. You know, and they had to helicopter him out. He had one of the things.
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness. Yeah, especially good to take it serious. I mean, there's there's no doubt about it. Like, we're you know, with with the adventure comes a little risk. It's good good to take when we don't take it seriously, is when we we get ourselves into a situation.
JasonWell, it sounds like a wise woman, man. Sounds like a good good thing. If you could only fish up in Wisconsin two days, which two days would you fish and how would you fish it? Because we've talked about all these different options, but now you've only got two.
SPEAKER_00That's so hard. I mean, I I really, really, really I mean, if it it you almost have to break it down into species, you know. Am I fishing for trout or smallies or skis or that's up to you, man, but you only get two days. Okay, I only get two days. Well, okay, I'll take one in uh I'll take one on April 30th for trout.
JasonI love the specificity of date. Go on.
SPEAKER_00Yep. And I'll take another one on November 1st for skis.
JasonMuskis, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
JasonTell me why. Tell me why and how you're gonna fish.
SPEAKER_00Well, the hatches are real nutty on the trout rivers in late spring. The water temp gets in that sweet, you know, depending what region you're in, somewhere between 52 and 65 in that late April time period, and all the cool Mayflies are coming off and caddys, and it just really can be just such a magical time of the year. And the, you know, the flows are usually real nice to you because you know it surges a little bit with the snow melt, but then once that's done, it's like just perfect, and and the weather's so perfect, and I don't know, it's just a hoot, the mosquitoes aren't eating you alive yet. Um, it's magical that time of the year, and then is it good?
JasonSo you're dry fly fishing, then it's a good dry fly fishing.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, dry fly fishing at the right moment, but otherwise fishing emergers and depending on the time of the day and stuff like that. To me, you were asking at one point, you know, about styles and stuff, you know, and for me, I've I've tried to adapt as much as I can my style of fishing to the circumstances, you know. I mean, part of what we love is fly fishermen are presenting artificial materials to fish that make them believe that what you're giving them is what they're eating, right? So, I mean, if they're not taking you know Hendrix and Mayflies uh off the surface, they're probably down below, maybe eating the nymphs, or maybe they're starting to take the emergers, or maybe they're just eating bait fish and you gotta throw some streamers, you know. But I enjoy, I think like a lot of fly anglers do. I I enjoy trying to decipher what it is that the fish are doing, and then do doing my best to mimic that, you know.
JasonYeah, I do know. I love that as well.
SPEAKER_00It's a hoot. It really is. It's hard.
JasonIt's hard? What makes it hard? Well, I mean, you mean just in general or that day in April?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think in general. I mean, I just think that to, you know, that's like the part of learning in fly fishing. You sit here and we read and we read and we read to be able to understand these indicators that help us figure out what how what in what manner we need to present a fly. It's really a trip like that, you know.
JasonOh, for sure. I definitely agree. What about the second day? Can you talk about why and how?
SPEAKER_00Well, November 1st. So there's some pragmatic reasons. Trout fishing closes October 15th.
JasonThat's valid.
SPEAKER_00In Wisconsin. And surely I'll have been nose to the grindstone from the end of September to October 15th, trout fishing every opportunity possible.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And having done so, I'll need a little break. About 15 days. And I think 15 days that puts me to November 1st. And by then I'll be real randy to get to casting a fly again. And and then I'll have to uh the the best thing to fish for then at that time would be muskies. And they're starting to put on this whole feedback thing. I'll be the first to admit I am still really learning how to effectively fish muskies. I have some buddies. There's this guy, uh Gabe Park, who's my really good buddy, and he he works with Muskie Fool, and he guides to, and he's really damn good at uh at muskie fishing. He just knows a ton about it. And the buddy I mentioned earlier, Hunter Dorn, uh, who's Wisconsin Fly Fishing Company, a great guide. He he knows so much about it. So I've been really actively learning from you know buddies about it all. Yeah. So basically, the idea is that when the water temps start dropping again, those muskies start putting on the feed bag, and you can really, really get these magical days. And I mean, they're throwing, they're throwing really big flies, you know. I enjoy throwing the nine weight because I'm always freaked out about getting my arm so dang sore that I am gonna have a hard time playing music the couple days after when I gotta hit the road. I didn't think about that. Throw a nine, but those guys are throwing, you know, and I I'll do it too when I if I feel like it. But they'll they're throwing 11 and 12 weights with like really, really big flies, like 12-inch flies, and you know, uh heavy, heavy sinking line, you know.
JasonSure, yeah. It's a different uh it's a different thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and but those fish are really, really active again on November 1st. And the weather's kind of cool, the leaves have left. Uh, you know, we I was out I I what was it, uh 10 days ago, I guess. I went out with with my buddy Gabe and another great guy, Nick Gellerstadt. And we're out floating, and it was just one of those super cool days where we had follows like right away in the morning. You could tell it was gonna be good, and you know, Gabe got a 41 and and Nick got a 43, and then I I had a sweet one follow that I kind of messed up at the boat, didn't quite figure out. And then uh in the 11th hour, man, I bomb a fly out there. And you know, you're getting a little laxadasal. You're like nine hours into this float, and you've been stripping these giant bugs all day. And anyhow, I watch this fish, a sweet fish, come torpedoing out, and he lights up that fly, and I strips at it super hard, you know, and have him on for maybe two seconds, and he comes up and he does that northern Wisconsin painting fish jump where the whole body comes out of the water and the gills flare.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that fly rips out, man, and it comes and it just does the classic shoot straight back at you and lands right in front of the boat, you know.
JasonSpears you in the chest. Yeah, I've had that.
SPEAKER_00Not with muskie, but so it wasn't made for me that day, I guess.
JasonExplain to people the figure eight, because I've talked to folks about that, and it's something it sounds unique to maybe not unique to muskie per se, but predatory fish in that kind of region and that type of thing. What's the figure eight you talk about?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think the idea is that with muskies, you know, you'll they'll follow the fly a lot. It's like they're curious or they're waiting for the right moment to eat it, or like sometimes, you know, you're the fly has to kind of dog leg or twitch the right way in order for it to engage them for whatever reason. So what you do is if you're stripping it back and they're following and not eating it, you get it up to the boat and you just you do a very long sweeping, like I'm talking you're extending your arm quite a bit and making a large figure eight. It's important that it's large, uh, the figure eight, because you know, you're imagining a muskie being on its tail, and muskies aren't gonna turn like on a dime, you know, they're not like making an L turn, they're making like a big U turn. And so you do that, and sometimes that erratic movement will provoke them and they'll eat right at the boat.
JasonIt's like a last ditch maneuver.
SPEAKER_00It is, it is, but it's also a safety net because sometimes they'll have followed lower in the water column than you can see. So sometimes they'll be like way down below. So even with polarized glasses, you can't see that fish.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So you some guys say to only do it if you if you're seeing them trail, but like my buddies who are really good at it, they figure eight every damn time, you know.
JasonOh, yeah, I get what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00So like every cast, like it's not something you do.
JasonTwo schools of thought, like, okay, I've got to follow. Let me finish this off with a figure eight because I want to land this fish, or maybe there's a fish on the on the tail here that I don't know about, so let me do the figure eight.
SPEAKER_00You should be doing it every time is big is what the good guys would say. Yeah. So so yeah, you know, I do do the big swooping figure eight, and like, you know, my buddy was just saying the other day that one of the differences between uh an okay or a solid muskie angler and a really good muskie angler is your ability to for one cast a giant fly, which is weird. I mean, it's a double haul, it's it's somewhat arduous, you know. And then the other one is your ability to do a quality figure eight.
JasonI think, yeah, that sounds like really important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and he knows I can handle it, so he was actually harassing me a little bit about my figure eight because I was getting real lazy, you know, and just kind of doing like whatever, flip it around, it's all good. And he was like, Man, you could you could end up losing fish. And the reality is earlier that day, had I not been figure eighting without care, I may have caught that fish that followed, you know. So it's it's it's a tough thing because it's not like trout where you can, you know, it's like there's a high density sometimes in a run, and you can kind of focus and be really trying to catch that fish. But musky, you you get almost zen out and you sort of stop thinking about it. And that's the trick is to remain in the game because if you leave the game, that's when one's gonna eat and you're gonna miss it. And this fish of a lifetime that you were trying to catch just ate and you whiffed, and you're not gonna catch them.
JasonI loved your muskie story so much. I want to hear your most memorable trout story from Wisconsin.
SPEAKER_00You know, the most I don't know if I can say the most memorable forever uh story, but the one that's in my brain, right?
SPEAKER_01That's what I want. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'll tell you why it's so special. It's special because if you get when you get into fly fishing, you know, like like you are, and like I imagine a lot of the listeners are, you you really become analytical about it. You start to like question what happened. Maybe you leave that day and you're thinking back about something. It's like, okay, why did that happen the way it happened? There is a run in Wisconsin on an unnamed river that I had fished, I don't know, maybe 30 times in life. And it was it's deep and it's perfect, it's the speed of a human walking. It just seems like there should be a bruiser in there. And every time I fished that damn run, I would always leave like, gosh, that pisses me off. Because I could I wouldn't catch a fish, you know?
JasonYeah, it's like I know there's fish in here. This is definitely fishy water.
SPEAKER_00I'm talking, I would switch up some tactics, add some split shot, try to get my depth right.
JasonYeah, I've been there. I think we've all been there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just totally puzzling, you know, and like some days it drives you nuts, other days you're like, well, whatever, that's how that always happens. But I this particular run had reached this point of anxiety for me, where I like couldn't handle it anymore. And I got to thinking real hard real hard about it. And one day I was like, you know, man, the situation was as such where you there's like one place where you would stand and fish the run. Right? It's like the intuitive place where you would go to stand to cast at it. And I realized I had never not fished from standing right there. And I was like, man, next time I do this, I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna go ahead of the run, and I'm gonna like cast as high as I can above the run and let that drift over the edge, and then I'm gonna keep mending, stack mending up river so I can extend this drift down in there. Because what I had realized that one day was that it looked like the deepest part of the run might have been right at the end. So where I was standing might have been, for instance, only but three, four feet off of where like a big fish could be holding. And let's say that there was only one big territorial fish in there. Maybe I was spooking that right at the beginning when I'd start casting. So I get in there and I'm doing this plan. This is like days later, and I run run it maybe three times, and then I'm like, okay, well, maybe I'm not, nothing's happening. I'm like, maybe I'm just not getting like maybe I need to be ticking the bottom, you know? Like maybe this, maybe I need to do like the true particular presentation of getting way down deep there to a big fish. So I put on like the biggest stone fly, like a size stick six stone fly and a trailer, you know, just an indicator above, and I get it to like what I think is slightly deeper than it needs to be. Kind of a last ditch effort. I do that same plan. It gets, man, I kid you not, it maybe gets a foot and a half from where I would traditionally stand. Bobber goes down, and it was like in a way where you could tell that it wasn't a snake, you know, and I set the hook, and immediately I see the best, the best Wisconsin fish I've ever caught, you know, like game on. And I have this just unbelievable fight because thank god the fish ended up running back towards me, and then I doubled back down below because right below this run was skinny water. Had the fish just dipped downriver right when I hooked it, I would have lost him. It would have been game over right away. Her. I would have lost her. And it and it ran upriver, and then I was able to fight it. And I had switched my tip at two to Forex, wondering if I would get a bruiser, and sure enough, landed the fish, and it was like one of those deals where you're shaking like hell, you know. Just just your stoke is is just you have so much adrenaline coursing through your system. You're you are higher than a kite.
JasonWell, that's uh what kind of fish was it?
SPEAKER_00It was a brownie.
JasonBig brown trout.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, but it was such a special. It had these crazy spots, you know, and it was just beautiful. It was it was a neat, neat time.
JasonWell, that's cool. It's a great because it's always fun to catch big fish, but it's even cooler, in my opinion, to catch a big fish after you figure something out.
SPEAKER_00Like that deliberate, that's struggling, struggling for so long.
JasonAnd not just that day, like multiple days, and then like light bulb comes on. Yeah, light bulb comes on, and then you even in the in that day have to ch have to make an adjustment and stuff. And you know, sometimes we make changes and they don't work, and sometimes we make changes and they do work, but when you make a change and it's deliberate and you're applying your knowledge from the river, from your experience, and you're not guessing. You're making you're making an educated guess, I guess, versus versus just well, try a new fly. No, I'm gonna use this other fly because actually the water's higher, and that makes sense. They would, you know, they they would take this color scud versus a different color because the water's been up, or or you know, those types of decisions is different than well, I'm gonna put on a pheasant tail because the hair's ear didn't work, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, making these cool judgments, you know, like assessing the circumstances, whether that's the the topography of the river or the you know, maybe you picked up a rock and you're like, wait, I'm throwing stone flies and there's caddys everywhere, and they're you know, uh just just being able to make educated decisions is is it's one of the most beautiful things of the whole deal.
JasonYeah. Well, speaking of flies, I'm a below average fly tire, slightly below average to below average, I'll say. I'll give myself that. But if I was gonna come out there and fish, Adam, what would be a couple of flies that I could tie that are kind of good flies to take out in Wisconsin throughout the year? Maybe they don't work all year long, but you know, they're they're they're kind of just basic staple kind of confidence flies that aren't too hard to tie.
SPEAKER_00Well, for one, I don't tie at all. That's fine. I I am a completely I I just have never been able to become enthusiastic about it. And when I'm doing that kind of thing, I'm trying to write songs.
JasonYou probably know enough to know what's not hard to tie.
SPEAKER_00Certainly do. Uh yeah, I mean, the best flies in Wisconsin are gonna be your I mean, certainly your pheasant tails. I mean, there's so much such an extensive mayfly hatch, you know, that that's that's crucial. Um we've got a fly down in the Drifless region called the Pink Squirrel. And I mean, what it is, is I I would say that it's some kind of mixture of an imitation of a caddis and a and a scud. It's wildly effective fly, super cool. And then uh I fish stone flies.
JasonYeah. Pat's like a Pat Stone or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I like them weighted because what I do with those is I I almost never use split shot. And I just I um use the the weight of a stonefly. Really what I change more often than not is the degree to which the stone fly is weighted if I have to get deep.
JasonOkay. And you do that by size of the the fly?
SPEAKER_00Size of the bead, yeah.
JasonDo you not like uh split shot just for what what's your I know a lot of people are not fishing?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, like I'll do it on tail waters and stuff for sure. Uh I don't like it, I think, because I don't like it's like another thing I have to mess with as opposed to just using the correct weight of some flies. And I think it's because the rivers I fish don't call for that type of approach.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00If it if it I may find over time that it it could be effective in circumstances, but it's really not on the waters that I fish. It just doesn't make sense.
JasonYou say you don't tie flies because a lot of the time that you have in those situations where you might be tying your writing for your music. So I want I want to get back into some of your music and specifically some of your songwriting. And I want to do that by first reading something that you wrote, if that's okay. Well, another trout season came and went. I always feel a little better with my rod a little bent. Better than my liver, I suppose. And to cast a fly, you gotta be on your toes. Anyhow, a trout is beauty, and a clear cold river might be my favorite cutie. And I might get dirty, but I feel so clean when run through a Spring Creek's washing machine. And anyhow, anyhow again, Mother Nature's forgiving friend, she don't judge ya for the stupid shit you do, but she'll force you to reckon with some truth. And to cast a fly you gotta let on go as you go back and forth to and fro. But alas you let that line just soar straight into another open door. And up and up that stream we roll, trying not to forget our fishing pole, or what we learned at the last river bend, soon we'll be just fishing again. So thank you, God, or whatever it is, for cold water and her sweet kiss, for the parachute atoms and the Davies Hopper and all the soft hackles and the woolly buggers, for the comfort in casting some fly line and watching a bug soar. Oh so fine. And for another year, just like Joe, living the stream and finding the flow.
SPEAKER_00Forgot about that.
JasonOh, I didn't forget. That's awesome, man. So I I mean, I love that you're a songwriter. I I'm a writer, I love to write. I write a blog and I'm working on other stuff, but that's pretty cool. I think you know, uh obviously you're writing for the band. Can you talk a little bit about how fly fishing, because that's like specifically fly fishing, you know, you just wrote a poem or a song or a rift about fly fishing. How how does it affect your songwriting? Or um we talked a little bit about before how you you get in the groove, you do the work, you start branching out, you start making changes. Is I mean, do you see those parallels in your musical life as well?
SPEAKER_00Well, you have to experience things to write about them, right? I mean, when that that poem that you're talking about, or that you just read, that I was standing, that must have been like whatever, October 10th or something like that. And I was I was in the uh river in in the drift list.
JasonSo do you carry a little notepad with you?
SPEAKER_00And or did you just I don't I think that that just like got stowed away and I got back to the car, and uh, but it's it's the most it's the damnest thing. You know, you'll hear people talk about this with art. Perhaps it happens with you with your uh with painting, but I'll be standing there and maybe it's like the all of your worries and stuff are shed from you or something, and then somehow you connect. It feels like it's almost out of body, and suddenly you can just you can just write, you know, and just it just happens, and it's like it's like people talk about how human beings are often conduits to art. It's like we open up some kind of portal to the great beyond, and these things come through you, and then you you digest them and you share them.
JasonThe muse. That's the museum. The muse. The museum.
SPEAKER_00You know about the muse? I do know about the muse, and it's the damnedest thing. It's it's such a it's such a unique thing. But you know, as far as like nature and writing, like the reality is that you know, we write about the things that that we're involved with. That's like why sometimes you hear when people are on the road too much, it's like when musicians are on the road too much, they'll say something like, Man, I gotta get out and do some living, or I ain't gonna have anything to write about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because, you know, like how do you, you know, sure, sometimes songs about living on the road are are fun to listen to, but like most of us don't live on the road, you know. Um, you know, love songs, songs of heartbreak. Well, you have to be heartbroken to write them. Haven't had that for a little while. You know, can't write about that. Getting out there and being wildly inspired by something I see in nature. Now that that I can write about because that that happened as soon as yesterday, or you know, as recent as yesterday, and as soon as tomorrow. And you know, like those those are there, and I think like you know, the musical scale, for instance, sure, humans sort of put it on paper, but the musical scale, for instance, came from nature, came from sounds we hear in nature, rhythm, concepts of rhythm came from nature, you know, music. Uh, you know, everything we paint, the colors came from nature, you know, like all these things we see, they're out there for us to digest. Like these processes are there, freezing, thawing, you know, things dying and rebirth. There's just like nature's so rich with metaphor, and that's not something that we're that we have to create as a theory in our own mind. It's something that's tangible that's going on out there that we see and we digest and we relate to our own lives. It's right there for us.
JasonWe just have to go out in it. We just have to, like you said, very eloquently, we have to go experience it. And the first thing you said, you can't write about things you haven't experienced, right? Or you haven't lived. I think that's very true. And it's one of the reasons my wife and I value and we push that on our children so much. Like life's an adventure, you know? It's like be a good person, work hard, and then life is an adventure, man, because I disagree with everything you said. I can't really say it better than that, man.
SPEAKER_00Well, sometimes you just gotta wait out there.
JasonYes, wait out there. That's what the show, that's what it's about. That's why I started it. Um and part of what I'm doing with Wait Out There is trying to set an example for my kids as they grow up and look to be professionals on planet Earth to show them like, hey man, like you can do anything, you know, you can paint, you can write, you can work in the outdoors, you know. I've had a different career up to this, but that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to do something I care about. And I was fortunate in my previous professional career to do something that I was deeply passionate about. And so uh, you know, I never take that for granted. But when that chapter of my life ended, I wanted to do something similar, and that's what that's what this all is art and writing and fly fishing and talking to people and adventures and and and eventually going up to Wisconsin and and fishing with Adam and stuff like that. Did you write Wisconsin Water?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
JasonDid that come from what we're talking about?
SPEAKER_00You know, Wisconsin Waters was uh was written, I was in my I was in college. I was in my college house. And well, and that was one of those moments that was like written like on a dime, too, like that poem where whatever, something happened. And you know, that that was written more about the thinking about the way that nature heals us. You know, like we I'm sure you've said this. Listeners have probably said this when you're when you're upset or something, maybe you've had you're in a fight with your partner or something, and you say something like, uh, I just need to go take a walk.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like what you're really saying is, I need nature to take care of me. I need to go out there and get cleansed by nature's kind of healing power, you know. And I was going through a really weird, challenging time when I think Wisconsin Waters got got written. And that song has been really neat because I've seen these moments from stage where like we'll kick into that song and that chorus will hit, and I'll see people like some some people like smiling very uh kind of like passionately, and others like crying. Like it it having a it having like a direct effect on them, you know, and uh and it helping them feel some things that they perhaps needed to feel. That's with art is to to help somebody find what they need to find within themselves through your artwork, you know. That's just like the greatest, the most uh fulfilling feeling, you know.
JasonYeah, the way you talk about the cold, and I I'm imagining Wisconsin and and yeah, it's very visceral. And I wanted to bring that song up because I knew we were gonna talk about Wisconsin, and but now having heard you talk about nature, and I think that's super insightful. I mean, you take it to a small scale and you say, I'm just gonna go out because I'm gonna feel better if I take a walk. Okay. Magnify that by however many times, and now you're taking veterans that may be struggling from PTSD, and it's the same concept, like, hey, I I just need to get out because I'm uh I'll feel better. Like I don't know. That's that's just basic, and we all kind of know that, and it's it's interesting, it's been interesting for me to see and be able to talk to people from these different organizations that have tapped into that and used it in such a powerful way that seems like it should have been so obvious because it's obvious to say, I'll feel better, I'm gonna go for a walk, I'll feel better. But maybe it's not as obvious to say, I'm gonna take this woman who's struggling with breast cancer and take her out on the river, and it's gonna have this you know significant emotional effect.
SPEAKER_00Man, hats off to all of the organizations that are out there right now doing that, you know, being conduits for veterans. Like there's uh there's a guy in Wisconsin named Jeff Butler, who's over on the St. Croix River, and he's an awesome, awesome guy, and he's doing a lot of that. But there's I know there's organizations around the country that are doing it, and also doing it with for like youngsters, not not just your average youngster, but also youngsters who have gone through like really, really challenging stuff. It's like it's cool that that we are all acknowledging nature's healing power and also being able to give back from it's from recognizing that. I know like that's that to me, those people like I know how much energy that that takes to to be involved with those types of programs and to do that kind of stuff and give of yourself. So just I just think that's so cool. And hats off to all those organizations, yeah, for sure.
JasonIt is very cool, and I share your sentiment. Adam. Before I ask you my last question, how can people find out more about you and discover some of your music uh in the way that I discovered it? Maybe schedule a trip to go fly fishing with you, or just follow along in your journey uh or reach out, and then um what are some of the things that you're excited about in those endeavors?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, I so I got a lot of projects. Horseshoes and hand grenades is my main project, but I'm also in a a rock and roll band called The High Hawks. I've also got like a folk project with Sarah Voss from Dead Horses called Rucksack Revolution. Um, and then last but not least, I'm lucky to be kind of the musical partner for a comedian named Charlie Barens. So I've I've always got a busy schedule. I also do some solo stuff, and yeah, you can find me on on Facebook by following Horseshoes and Hand Grenades or me at Adam Gruul. And it's Gruul spelled funny. It's G-R-E-U-E-L. Um, and then I'm on the Instagram, you know, at Adam Gruul. Um my email is horseshoesguitar at gmail.com if you ever wanted to reach out that way. Um, and then yeah, I do do guiding, you know, occasionally when I'm uh as my schedule allows, and that's via Fall Line Outfitters, which is this really cool shop uh here in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, and I'll guide all over the state just kind of based on what whatever people are uh interested and curious in and what the fish are doing and water levels and all that jazz. Um so yeah, and that's and we travel all over the country, you know. I never you never know if I'll be down there in Montana or Colorado or Missouri. Love love hanging out down there in Arkansas on the old white river whenever I get a chance, you know, all that kind of stuff.
JasonYeah, I used to live in we I did we just moved to Utah from Missouri, and that was fun being in that area. I love the Midwest. It's a great part of our country, I think. Great people, great culture. It's pretty fun. Anything specific on the horizon uh that you're excited about that you want to bring up projects or tours or anything?
SPEAKER_00Gonna cut a bunch of records in early 2023. I'm doing one, another one with Charlie Barron's, cutting a record with the Highhawks. And then I'm in the process of writing the next Adam Gruel album. Uh Workshees and Handgrands, we just released our uh sixth album in 12 years called called For Old Time's Sake. It's uh kind of a nod to some of the uh old traditional songs that we've always enjoyed. So that's released, you can find that all over the place. Um as far as the future, man, uh just I I really enjoy making music and and fly fishing. And to me, those as long as those things are in my life, it it'll continue to to to feel good about about what's going on and getting to meet people like you and just experience nature's nature's wonders. And you know, I I like to just kind of walk in circles and see what happens.
JasonOh all right. If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical and one more philosophical. What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?
SPEAKER_00Philosophical would well actually tactical, really. I think this would fall into tactical is is really, really listen to to other fly fishermen. Really, really try to um immerse yourself with with folks who have a passion and love for fly fishing. It's just it's such a wonder uh the exchange of ideas. You know, we get to talking about about uh certain tactics, and you might even realize something about a tactic you've always used that you're missing, that somebody else is using, you know, and and uh so yeah, listening better. You know, I think we all when you're young, we're shitty listeners when we're young, you know. We really are. Sure. And I I certainly was. And then uh philosophical would be uh I think a recognition that uh it's not about how big or how many, it's about being out there and being able to catch the zen of fly fishing and and being able to experience you know the the beauty of nature. And um yeah, I think that's it.
JasonLiving the stream and finding the flow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's uh that's Joe Humphreys. There's a video that came out that's Joe Humphreys Living the Stream, the fishing legend, Joe Humphreys, and I I really enjoyed that video, and that's where that came from. Getting through it just like Joe. Just like Joe.
JasonWell, I've really enjoyed talking with you, man. Thanks for taking the time. You said at the beginning that your mom was a very or is a very friendly, curious, and welcoming person, and she surely passed that on to her son because I'm I I've had a great time talking with you, and I wish you all the best in your music, in your fishing, and in your walking in circles and creative space that you're working in. It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00It's a pleasure to talk to you, and thanks for uh putting this content out into the world, not not just this conversation with me, but like I've enjoyed a lot of the stuff that you've done, and I know you've got a lot of good stuff coming down the pipeline, too, man. So good for you, and thanks for uh being a cool contributing member to the fly fishing community, man.
JasonThanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog, an online gallery at waitoutthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.