The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 120: Bonefish, Photography, and Fish Handling in the Florida Keys with Tommy Dimattina
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In this episode we Wadeoutthere with Tommy Dimattina from Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Tommy picked up his grandfathers fly rod while exploring his backyard and backwaters of the Florida Keys by paddle board.
He used a camera to chronicle his love for the outdoors and fishing, and has braided his passion for fly fishing, photography, and the salt water environment into a career.
We discuss fly fishing for bonefish in the Florida Keys, fish handling in saltwater, as well as photography and tips for how to make it a profession.
To view some of Tommy's photography or to book work with him visit:
FinsandFlyCreative.com
You can also follow Tommy or reach out to him on Instagram at:
@bostoninked
OR
@finsandflycreative
To learn about how to help support the salt water of the keys and other areas check out:
Captainsforcleanwater.org
For more fly fishing stories, lessons learned, and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at Wadeoutthere.com
Sign up for Jason's free email newsletter (WadeOutThere Wednesday) at WadeOutThere.com/Wednesday
In this episode, we went out there with Tommy Di Martina from Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Tommy picked up his grandfather's fly rod while exploring his backyard and backwaters of the Florida Keys by Paddleport. He used a camera to chronicle his love for the outdoors and fishing, and has braided his passion for fly fishing, photography, and the saltwater environment into a career. We discussed fly fishing for bone fish and the Florida Keys, fish handling and the saltwater, as well as photography and tips for how to make it a professional. Welcome to the Wait Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shepard. At Wait Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Tommy. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for the invite, man. I appreciate it.
JasonYeah, I'm excited to talk to you. My son's name is Tommy. So that's one one one thing that's exciting for me. I'm happy to talk to uh someone named Tommy. It's kind of funny because I'm always, you know, Tommy, come here. Tommy, do this. Like I've got to remember I'm talking to a professional here. And then I know how my wife feels then, because she's doing the same thing all the time. Tommy, Tommy. Um no, obviously I I love that name, yeah. Tommy, it's cool. And uh Marcos Matola was on the show, and uh, you know, I've been following your work for a long time with your photography and such. And I meant to ask you to be on the show, and then Marcos was on the show, and he mentioned that you might be excited about talking, and then that was like a double whammy. And then I was, man, I gotta get Tommy on the show, ASAP. So I'm pumped to finally meet you, man.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm excited to be here. Yeah, it's uh funny you say that because uh about my photography, because the your two guests you've had before, Cameron and Marcus, were kind of they're kind of big inspirations for me on on photo. I was just kind of doing it for fun, and I was seeing what they were doing. I'm like, dude, and it like really juiced me up to like get going with the photo stuff. So they were somebody, both of them are people I looked up to to get my career started.
JasonWell, I want to ask you about kind of how your career started and how you transitioned into professional photographer because I get I could get a lot of questions from folks that are in the fly fishing world that you know there is this media space kind of surrounded around the fly fishing industry, for better or worse. I think a lot of goodness comes from it, uh probably some bad stuff here and there, but lots of awareness is brought from these types of photography and and videography and stuff, and I find it fascinating. Uh and so I I do get folks asking about like, hey, I've got the side hustle and how do I kind of move into the next realm? So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that journey for yourself and especially how fly fishing played into that because we were talking before the show and your Instagram handle is Boston Inked, but you're born in Florida and you lived in the Keys, and now you're in Atlanta. But before we when we were when I was talking to you to come on the show, you're like, oh yeah, we we're going up to North Carolina. So you're all over the place, and I wonder if you can bring that uh, you know, put that in a box for us to kind of like look at.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, uh as far as Instagram handle, like just one of those things that I I don't want to change because it's it's been around. I mean, God, I feel old saying this, but I'm 37 and I think I made that when I was 23. Um, just one of those 23-year-old decisions you think's cool at the time, you know. But now it's my identity, right? So like everybody knows like you knew me as that, and so I don't want to change it. But um as far as like the career thing, man, that's a very it's a very tough question to answer. Uh, there's no like real answer, right? Like a lot of it is networking, um, talking to everybody that you can. Like this podcast. Um, if you ask any of my friends, I'll talk to a brick wall. Um, I talk to everyone. I enjoy it. I enjoy talking to people, hearing their stories. Everybody's got something interesting to say. Um, so I had started like a little clothing company back in the day just for fun, like a little side hustle thing. And I made a lot of connections that way, and then I just decided that's not for me anymore. That the market's too saturated. So I had a bunch of connections that were associated with that Boston Inc. account already, like in the fishing industry. Um, and then like I said before the show, my wife will tell you I'm a I've lived a hundred lives, right? So I've I was a firefighter paramedic in Atlanta. That's what I went to school for. Um, I did that for six years up here and decided like pay wasn't as good as it should be. Um, not a fan of the cold weather, and I missed my bone fish. So I've moved directly from Atlanta back to Key West. But you were born in Fort Fort Lauderdale, right? Is that where you're from? Yeah, I went to high school, Fort Lauderdale, went to Fire Academy, paramedic school, all that Fort Lauderdale. Then I moved to Atlanta.
JasonAnd Atlanta was too cold for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, like today I woke up to go to the gym and it was like 25 or something like that. And I was like, dude, this is this is for the birds, man. Like, but you know, it is what it is. I do love Georgia still. So um I moved directly to Key West Um from Atlanta. I think that was 2014. And uh, had a crime scene cleanup company, which is that that could be a whole nother podcast on its own. So we'll we'll just leave that where it is.
JasonUm yeah, I don't think I want to ask any more questions about that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. It was interesting. Um yeah, and then my dad had been a general contractor his whole life, so I did plumbing and remodeling with him. And I think it should be about four years ago now. This Christmas, I think it's four years. I had asked my mom for a camera. I was doing a hundred sailfish challenge, which I was on the Tom Rowland podcast discussing uh previously.
JasonWhat's that? What's that? The hundred uh what's the hundred challenge?
SPEAKER_00One of my buddies, Matt George, he has a he has a 22-foot bay boat, and we used to go fish for sailfish just for fun. Um, I love sailfish. Uh there's just something about billfish that is very exciting. Um, they say it'll ruin you, and if you marlin fish, that's about accurate. Uh it's it's hard to find excitement in anything after watching a blue marlin, you know, come out of the water, and even sailfish to an extent, too. Um, but we were just trying to catch, we went out, we caught like six sailfish in a day. I was and we were joking, we're like, hey man, you think we could catch a hundred of these in a year? Because we only fished like on Saturdays, right? Like we weren't out there every day of the week. And he's like, Yeah, let's try it. So we did it. And uh Tom Roland thought it was interesting enough to talk about on his podcast. So we went on there, talked about it. During that 100 sailfish challenge, I was like, you know what? I want to get a camera and just play with it, get better pictures from my Instagram. And um, I guess I became good. I mean, that's some people think my photos are great. I look at my stuff that I did three months ago. I'm like, man, that's trash. What was what am I, you know? And then that that's part of the journey of being a photographer is you're constantly improving, or you should be. Um, and you should be able to look at your work that's three months previous and go, I don't like that. What was I thinking? Because if not, you're not learning, you're just staying kind of stagnant in that skill.
JasonYeah, I want to put a pin on that real quick and talk a little bit more about it, because I think that that is very insightful. And but I wonder your opinions on uh the balance between you know being self-critical like too much, uh almost like paralyzing, especially when you're doing the work, you know, because I think a lot of creatives get into this space where they're like, uh, you know, they're they're afraid to do the work because they don't like it as they're going, or like it's the same kind of concept as like editing as you write. Like you've got to just get it done. And then is that something that you've struggled with or you don't think about it? Because I also agree though that I can tell a difference in my work from like it's obvious to me, but other people maybe not so much. But if I don't, if I let that kind of stew inside me, then that's also negative energy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, that is, I mean, you kind of hit it there as like, you know, it can be where you look at stuff and it is like paralyzing, or like I'll look at some of my work and some days I edit things, man, and I'm like, dude, I suck at this. Like, what am I doing? Like, what am I doing here? Um, but uh that same photo that I posted that I think is garbage, you know, you have a bunch of comments, or not now with Instagram's algorithm, and the engagement is obviously bad now. But before, you know, you post a photo, it gets 1200 likes, you have people sending it to you in your DM, like, dude, that photo is so great, blah, blah, blah. So that actually is where the positive side of social media, where like you might sit here and think your stuff's bad, but other people are like blown away by it. And that's kind of like the nice balance, right? You have people who who don't, they're not photographers, so they can look at it with like an an honest perspective. They can go, wow, that's a great photo. But I'm comparing that photo to my stuff that I'm doing, you know, three months later. And so it's just a change. We all change in our technique for editing the colors we like. Do we like more blacks? Do we like more blues? What do we like? Um, and that's something that your style changes as you progress. So you just can't let that kind of cripple you, I guess. It's just, you know, if your work's good, it's good. And don't look at things three months down the road and think the stuff you did before was bad. Um, if you're learning from it, if you're looking at it and saying, What that's bad, what don't I like about it? And you're changing that and you see an improvement, then that just means you're going in the right direction.
JasonYeah. Yeah, there is there is a requirement to be honest with yourself, uh, you know, and say, How can I improve and and work to improve? And, you know, you have to make mistakes to learn and and all that type of thing. But at the same time, you know, you gotta go do the work, can't just be afraid. And that's something that I've noticed in fly fishing as well. And it kind of comes up every now and then on the podcast, especially when I do talk to artists and creative people, uh, is that fly fishing is similar in that regard and that one plays on the other, or maybe as they grow in one, they grow in the other. Is that something that you found in your fly fishing? Because when you're going for these these billfish and these, I mean the sailfish, I guess. Was it billfish or sailfish or both, or with the challenge?
SPEAKER_00Uh I mean, billfish is just like that general category. Um, and that wasn't even something I really chased on fly hard. You know, it was like we we had the 12-weight out there, we live baited him into the teaser, and then if I had an opportunity to take a shot, I would take it. And I've had a few chase the fly. I don't know if they see a live bait somewhere, they see a teaser, you know, whatever. But they just it's not something I really uh chased hard on fly. It was just something that if the shot came, I would try and take it.
JasonThat makes sense. And if you told me, hey, do you want to come down to Florida and go fishing for Blue Marlin, but we're not gonna use a fly rod, there's no way in hell I'm gonna not, I'm not gonna go, right? So uh I got no problem using gear, uh, especially out in that situation.
SPEAKER_00So well, that's kind of important, actually. Is something because I know how how the you know, like the premise of your of your show is like you know, fly fishing doesn't make you elite, I guess, right? It's yeah, people get so caught up. I think um this might be controversial or whatever, but I mean people get into fly fishing, right? And then they're like, Well, I don't want to catch a bone fish on a spinning rod. I only want to catch it on a fly rod. It's like, dude, it's a bone fish. Like, they're amazing fish, they're awesome. Um, I would say, like, don't let that that fly rod and reel get you in a in like a a rut where you're like, well, you know, I went out, I saw six bone fish today, and I didn't catch any because I only wanted to throw the fly. It's like, no, dude, if you have a shot with a fly rod, take it. If you don't think you have that shot, throw the spinning gear, dude. No one's gonna look at you and go, oh, that guy got a bone fish, but it wasn't on the fly. Like, are there people like that? Sure. But I mean Yes, there are. Do we care what they think? No, it doesn't. No, yeah, just go have fun with it. That's the most important part is having fun. And uh, if you catch a bone fish on a spinning rod or a fly rod, you're gonna have fun. Like, it isn't so it doesn't make you elite. Don't stick to that, don't have that mentality of like if it's not if it didn't get caught on the fly, then it doesn't count. You know, I mean, there's a lot of people that are that way.
JasonI agree with you completely in that regard. I wonder when was fly fishing brought into the mix here. Was that something you were doing during this challenge, or you were fly fishing before that down in Florida? Like when in this journey from born and raised in, you know, Florida, Fire Academy, move up to Atlanta, back to the Keys, you know, what now back in Atlanta and time in you know, time in North Carolina.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, fly fishing came before photos. Uh when I moved back to the Keys, I was in Key West for a year. Uh it was awesome. I had a great time, but it was not like it was just party, party, party. And I was like, dude, this is I'm in my 30s now. Like, I'm not a party party guy. So I got a house on the water in Key Largo, and every morning I did a paddle, like on my paddle board, it was 13 miles through Penny Camp Park and across the old airport flat and all that. And in the process, I found my grandpa's fly rod uh from a long time ago. It's an old St. Croix, it's a two-piece. Um, it's it's it's a pretty awesome rod. And I was like, oh, that's cool. So I went and bought a Lampson, I think everybody's first fly reel is a Lampson liquid, I feel like, is like a it's a it's a great reel, right? And it's a hundred.
JasonLampson makes good reels. I I have a Lampson remix that I had a this old Click and Paul forever, ever and ever. It was given to me by a guy in Colorado that was kind of my fly fishing mentor when I I brought in my Walmart reel, and he's like, no, dude, I can't, we can't be doing this because it was junk. And but that's all I could afford. And I caught fish with it, but he gave me this Click and Paul Reddington, and when I finally was like, Maybe I I'm gonna get a new reel here. Uh I got a lamp sin, but they're good reels, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a great. I mean, for your first reel, like that's a hundred bucks, dude. Like a lamp liquid, it's a great reel. So I bought that reel, went to worldwide sportsman. Uh, you know, everything that the the beginner fly fish does, I did, you know, the the things I bought that you're like, why would I do that? But you don't know in the beginning, right? Like Florida Keys Outfitters was right down the street. Literally, I could throw a rock and hit Florida Keys Outfitters from Worldwide Sportsman, but I just went to where I knew um, you know, some cheap line, which is another mistake, just some Bass Pro Shops line or whatever. Uh, and I was just watching YouTube videos and I would bring the rod with me on my morning paddles and just probably teach myself the wrong way to cast. But eventually I got there where I was casting and I was like, okay, I can cast. I don't know how good it is, but you know. So I think that's kind of what finding my grandpa's fly rod and like wanting to catch, um wanting to catch something on his rod is what motivated me to fly fish. And I think that'll the next thing will be I just got a hold of his deer rifle, uh, an old deer rifle. So that'll probably be the next thing of my grandpa's that I get into, but we'll see. I don't need another expensive habit. Fly fishing and photography are enough.
JasonYeah. Hunt, fish, smoke, brew. Those are my four. I can hunt, fish, smoke, barbecue, and brew beer. And then if I'm outside of those lanes, I I'm really max myself out because I'm a husband and a father, and I want to be better at those things than the others. So I got that stuff too. But now I'm in Utah, so or skiing as well. So that's enough. That's something I gotta take my son skiing too, uh, because he wants to go. So I guess I I broke my rule with the skiing, but I haven't brewed beer in a long time, so maybe that's fallen off. I need to change my mantra.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's fine. We'll change your habit up too. You know, I think skiing with your K would be a lot cooler than brewing beer.
JasonYeah, it's probably a much less selfish endeavor, I think, more meaningful. Okay, so you start fishing down in Florida, and you're fishing with your grandpa's rod?
SPEAKER_00I was at the time, yeah. I just was like, you know what, let me try this. And I guess I don't know if it was like beginner's luck or whatever, but oh or the area, which I will definitely not say, but where I lived in the keys, um, there's like a back little area. I don't want to piss any guides off down there. Um, so there's like a little back area where my paddle would take me through. And I I kept noticing like every like fourth or fifth day, um, I could just see like little fins at the surface of the water. I'm like, man, what the fuck? What is that? You know, so I I paddle over and I was like, oh man, those are bone fish. And here I am, like maybe my second week fly fishing. I was using some fly I bought from Bass Pro Shops. And uh I just tried and tried and tried and tried, and I couldn't get those fish to eat. And so I thought I was doing everything right, and now I look back and I'm like, wow, it's an idiot. What was I doing? But that that seeing those tailing bone fish and like having my grandpa's fly rod, like that really to me, like it was I think fly fishing is like more of a the most connected you could be to a fish, right? Like if you hook a bone fish and that leader is in your fingers, it's different than on a spinning rod. Doesn't make it cooler, but it's just it's a more personal type of fishing. And I think I liked that uh a little bit slower pace. I liked that better than than spin fishing. So that's I think what got me hooked.
JasonYeah, and I think that's that's the answer that people would give you when they're like, no, I just want to throw the fly rod at the bone fish. And you know, maybe then they won't catch as many because they don't have that skill set yet. Um and we were talking earlier, like, well, if you threw a spinning rig, maybe you'd be able to have more luck. But I think I think someone would answer and say, Well, I want to I want to progress in this field and I want to get better and exactly for the reason you just said, just want to be connected. And I don't know, some people are out there, they're not as worried about catching fish, and they just wanna they want to they want to throw that line and and do that thing. But I agree with you that if that's your thing, great, but I wouldn't look down my nose at somebody throwing a spinning rig just because this is my thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, one of my buddies is a captain down in the in Sugar Loaf. Uh he actually just won the Sugar Loaf Showdown with Hauntson. Um, but he's like, you know, his he's a Green Beret, um, and he's also a fly fishing guide. And he's got his four-year-old son, or I mean Grayton's older than that now, but um he's I think Grayton's five or six now. But I mean that kid was catching bone fish at four years old on a spinning rod. So, like, you know, why would you shy away from that? Like, Scott can take you know his kid out there and throw it uh essentially what would be a fly, a like a shrimp fly, but he ties it on a jig head, and great Grayton at four years old would just rip that jig out there and reel it in and boom, bone fish. And like he he caught more bone fish, I think, on the spinning rod than at four years old than most adult men that I know, you know.
JasonSo yeah, it does spoil you. My dad, I caught a ton of trout. I caught a ton of cutthroat trout in Montana on a spinning rig with my father. And you know, and when I started fly fishing, I was I remember thinking, Well, why this is this is different. I'm not having those experiences I used to have, but you know, the more I did it, the better I got, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's also part of the reward, right? Like the challenge. I mean, yeah, I could go out there and see five bone fish with Scott and probably hook three or four of the five if I'm using a spinning rod. Fly rod, another story, you know, that is a much harder shot, much more different presentation, but that's part of the reward, right? Like the more challenging it is, the better you feel when you get it.
JasonWell, let's talk a little bit about fishing, fly fishing in the keys. And you said I was doing all these things wrong. What are some of the things that you that you learned? Like, what were some of the easy things where you're like, oh yeah, that's obvious now?
SPEAKER_00I think casting. Um, mainly it was just the casting. Uh first first thing is like, I guess anybody who's getting into fly fishing, people who listen to your podcast probably already do, but in the instance that somebody may be newer, um, you know, there's like a a balance, right? Like you don't need to go buy a $900 T bore Everglades for your first read. But you also don't want to buy a $30 one from Walmart or whatever. Because then you'll just end up buying another one and another one. And so you might as well have bought that $150 one or that $100 Lamp Son. So that was like a couple of the mistakes that the terrible fly line from Bass Pro is just like all yellow. There's probably zero taper to it, you know, wasn't really great for my casting. So that was like a couple of the things I did wrong, but I think mainly it was casting is like watching YouTube videos and uh just trying to remember what I saw on the video and then trying it when I got out there. And I think that muscle memory of teaching yourself like casting the wrong way. If you do it enough, you're gonna teach yourself those bad habits. And I did, I really did teach myself some terrible habits, and the way I fixed that was uh actually after fishing with Cameron and Marcos, uh I I bought a uh glass rod, and that kind of taught me to you know, with a glass rod, you have to cast slow and really rely on technique. And I think that was the goal, right? I bought an Echo Badass Glass. Badass glass, I like that. Yeah, it's a it's a cheap glass rod, it's not as nice as the Epics, but I mean, dude, I've had that thing for a very long time. It's a seven-weight, and I've caught a lot of bone fish on it. Um, and it's a great rod, but it it it forced me to slow myself down and rely more on technique and unteach myself those bad habits.
JasonWell, those guys are real big on glass.
SPEAKER_00I know that. They love it. Yeah, they're glass junkies, man. That they would catch a they would catch a 200-pound tarpet on a glass rod if they could.
JasonYeah, I'm sure they would. They love it. Um, but that's cool. And so is the key special for you, or what what makes that such a special fishery for you? Is it just because that's kind of where you got into it, or just you love catching bone fish, or is there anything about that that is specifically unique about the keys that you specifically enjoy or love?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, uh, I think I might have touched on it before the show, but growing up, my like I, you know, I went to high school and middle school and all that in Fort Lauderdale, but my family had a house on the bay a couple doors down from Pops Motel in Key Largo. Um, so we were there. I don't know if I ever went to school on a Friday as a kid. I think we were in the Keys Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So I've been going to the Keys, you know, my whole life. Uh, it's a very special place for me. It's beautiful, it's quiet. Um, and uh, you know, my grandparents loved it. Uh, we've all I think all of my grandparents' ashes have been spread in the keys. Yeah, they have. And then when I had moved from Key West to Key Largo, um we my wife and I had a mutual friend, Nick, that came to visit me, and she had seen his post of me and the keys, and she we started talking on Instagram, and she wanted to come down and see the keys and fly fish, so she did. So I kind of met my wife. I knew her in Georgia very, you know, not like through friends, kind of. We met a couple times, maybe once or twice, but that's kind of where our relationship started.
JasonShe she wanted to come fly fishing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So I told her I was like, listen, I have a three-bedroom house, I got an extra room, nothing weird. If you want to come, I'll take you fishing or whatever.
JasonAnd yeah, we'll just sit on the couch and watch movies, it'll be fine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah, don't ignore the beautiful scenery outside.
JasonJust yeah, yeah. Um, it's no no no big deal.
SPEAKER_00We did, we paddle boarded, and um she had just got into fly fishing at that time too. She had taken some lessons at Orbis in Georgia, um, and she was new at it as well as I was, so we kind of uh just fished around and um we went to the Florida Keys Outfitters fly fishing school together, and uh we kind of like grown our relationship around the keys and fly fishing, and then that's where I proposed to her. Uh, I got her a custom T bore with her ring. Um, and I proposed to her behunt and Lorelai at sunset while we were tarpon fishing, and then we got married in Alamorada. So, like my whole life has been connected to the keys.
JasonWow, man, I'm glad I asked that question. That is very special. I mean, that is really your whole life uh in a nutshell, and it's all connected to that area and those fish and that thing. What's the what was the move from Key West to Key Largo like? Was that I mean with big differences in fly fishing there? And then I gotta ask you a little bit more about fishing with your wife because that sounds like that's something special for you as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the move the when I lived in Key West, I honestly didn't fish that much. Um, because remember, like I had got a when I got that house in Key Largo, I actually didn't fly fish at all when I lived in Key West. It was when I moved to Key Largo, and the house was literally on the water, so I could just slide the paddleboard in. So I didn't really fish much in Key West. Do you regret that?
JasonAnd do you look back at the Key West fishery and say, wow, I had a big opportunity down there, or have you gone down since and fished down there?
SPEAKER_00No, I I honestly I don't regret it because I kind of like it might have been different if I had learned in in Key West. And you know, when I moved to Key Largo, I found my grandpa's fly rod, that's kind of what got me into it. And so, like, if I was interested, I would have maybe like gone with someone, used a different rod.
JasonIt wouldn't have been as special, I guess, but uh yeah, it wouldn't be that special story you just shared.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so now I have, like I said, my friend Scott, uh Scott Brown. He's a he's a fly fishing guy down in Sugarloaf, and so I get to fish Key West plenty, and my wife loves the Keys. Now she had never been there prior to meeting me, and now she wants to live there. Um, she loves the keys. So we go all the time. We fish with Scott. Um, I fished with uh Nick LaBaiti down there, he's a great guy, uh incredible guide as well. Um, so I've I've got some friends down there that if I really want to fish Key West, I can. Um, but Mia Marcos really fish for bone fish in Kibiscayne, is really where I've caught. I would say as much as I've fished the keys, I think Mia Marcos have caught more bone fish in Kibiscayne, and not even from a boat from wading.
JasonYeah, we talked to him about that on the show. Uh I forget which episode, but um he made mention of how non-traditional that is, or how like people listening will be like, no way, you guys are just wade fishing and you're not using a skiff and all that. But uh he he says it's great and catch a bunch of fish, and it's just a different uh different game, different strategy, but same type of fish.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that's the thing with fly fishing, right? Like it's it's more, like we said, personal, and it's more about for me, kind of the adventure, like going to California and doing golden trout, Marcos and Cameron. Like trout, don't live in ugly places, right? They're all it's it's beautiful, it's about the experience. And same thing with I think my most epic fly fishing day I've ever had in my whole life was with Marcos and Kibiscane waiting. We didn't have a boat. Uh, we went somewhere again, I won't say, uh had rolling tarpon like right along the shoreline, sunrise. Uh I have a photo, I'll send it to you after uh that Marcos took of me. We were like caught some rolling tarpon like right at sunrise, and we got some epic fish, some epic photos. And then once the tide changed, we moved over to another spot we had, and I think I mean me and Marcos probably both released like five, we caught the we both got tarpon at sunrise and then moved to our bone fish spot. And uh, I think Marcos, that fish he caught that day, I would say it was between 11 and 12 pounds. I mean, it was a massive, massive. I thought it was a little black-tipped shark that he hooked at first when I was going out to grab it for him. That's how big it was. I have photos of it. It's like it's legit. And we both caught like four or five bone fish on top of that one. Like, and then and then at lunch we were like, all right, it's 12 o'clock, let's go get some food. Like all that happened before lunchtime. So, you know.
JasonThe early bird gets the worm.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Yeah, exactly. Well, it depends on what time the tides are, I guess.
JasonYeah, that's true too. Uh, how much do the tides play into it? I mean, uh, when you're going for bone fish in the keys, are you do you really have to check that? Is that super important, or you just go and you can and deal with it?
SPEAKER_00I mean, Scott or a guide could tell you much more. They are much more knowledgeable on that than I am. But yes, tides do play a kind of an important role. Um, that's you know, that's gonna kind of dictate uh when they're feeding, really. And so, like, I know typically like a falling tide is kind of like the ideal. That's been my experience. There may be another guy that's listening to this is like, no man, what are you talking about? Incoming tides better, like it just depends on the fishery, it depends on your preference, and really that's fine.
JasonThat's fine. That's your experience, though. You like the falling tide?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, it's it's tides are they do play a very important role. If you go to a flat at like you know, high, high tide, you're not gonna find you might find some bone fish. I don't know, I don't want to say you won't, but you're the tide is definitely gonna help you and really learning your area too. Um, because like the Bahamas bone fishing is completely different than what I've experienced in the keys.
JasonYeah, I get that. I get that a lot now talking to saltwater guys and gals, that the the areas are are different and and you really have to adjust. It's not always the same. You know, and I think people that don't have have much experience in saltwater, they get this perception in their brain that this is what you do. You get a skiff, there's a guy in the back who's pulling, and a guy in the front, and now you're that's that's saltwater, right? But uh it's not necessarily the case. You know, there's all kinds of different ways to fish for these saltwater creatures. And but it's waiting. I'll talk to paddle borders, talk to boats, you know. Uh it seems like you just have to know what you're getting into and uh figure it out from there. I mean, just know your area really. How much time did you spend down there in the keys fly fishing and really growing? Because that's your pretty much uh that's where you're kind of cut your teeth in fly fishing, is down the keys, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's where I learned uh to cast, and then I caught my first bone fish on fly with uh after our me and my wife and I did the fly fishing school, we did a day with Craig Brewer. Um, I'm sure a lot of people know who that is. The guy's a legend. Uh awesome, awesome guy. Uh, I got my first bone fish on fly with him, and that's where I really fell in love with it. And then I started learning some things on my own, and I would catch some on my own. And then when I moved to when I moved from Key Largo back to Georgia, um, I didn't really fully move here, move here actually until last year. Like, we've had our house here, and because of my work, I was like in Florida a majority of the month, and me and my wife had like a long-distance relationship prior to getting married. So I did get to spend a lot of time. So, like, I would come to Georgia for like a week, go back to Florida for like three weeks, and so uh me and Marcos would fish keep a scain. Um, so we would go visit Scott. So, like, I guess, yeah, I mean, like fishing the keys is really where I cut my teeth. Um, it's like where I learned to fly fish, where I caught my first bone fish on fly, and it's my favorite place to fly fish for bone fish. But like I said, I think me and Marcos have caught more bone fish in Kibiscane.
JasonI had a long distance relationship with my wife as well before we got married. I was out in flight school and she was back in Colorado finishing up school. That could be challenging, but we we did make it work and she used to come down to Texas and can be a lot of fun too, you know, because every time you meet, it's like a vacation. You know, it's uh it made it very exciting and fun and we did a lot of cool stuff. Uh did you and your wife so now you guys still fly fish a lot together? She kept the bug as well. She loved to go. Did you go fly fish when you went up to North Carolina?
SPEAKER_00She yeah, she did actually, actually, she outfished me in North Carolina. Um, there's no surprise there, Tommy.
JasonCome on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know, yeah. She's um I don't she's not into it as much as she used to be.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's mainly because she hates being cold. And uh the trout fishing is really good here in Georgia. Like uh every Christmas Eve we would go fly fish, and sometimes it's 70 degrees. You know, you lived in Georgia, I think, right? Like, you know how it is.
JasonWell, yeah. I lived like way down south in Val Dasta, Georgia, so we didn't get much cold ever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, she just doesn't like to be freezing cold, get her hands wet when it's freezing cold outside. And I mean, I don't blame her, I don't either, but uh for the fishing for me is worth it. So, like, she I think she she's not into it as much as she used to be. But if we go to the Bahamas for vacation, like, yes, she is going to want to to bone fish for a day. Um that sounds like a fair weather fisher. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She uh, but you know, like in Asheville, uh, we just fished uh North Mill. Yeah, North Mills. It's kind of by Sierra Nevada. And we went the first day it was raining, and so we kind of just stayed under this bridge and fished onto the bridge, which I mean, how many times can you how many times can you drift one spot? So we just kind of left, and then the next day we went back and I I rigged her up with something. Um and I rigged myself up with hers, it was more like natural presentation, and mine was more like stuffed trout presentation. I'm kind of like uh um, I want to throw a dry fly or a streamer. And I think I I attribute that to like my my saltwater fishing, right? Like, I want to throw a streamer, I want to tick something, I want to make the fish chase it. I don't want to throw something and just let it drift. But dry fly a little different. So I was basically fishing uh like a more stock trout presentation, and I had her rigged up with like a stone fly and I think like a a hare's ear nymph or something. Um she did she did very well. Like I didn't have to help her with anything. Um, and she outfished me that day, so can't really say much other than that. But yeah, she does like to fish still.
JasonThat's great. Well, especially since it's such a big part of you guys' history, and it's cool that you guys still get down to the keys and you're able to do that. Let's say you only had two days of the year to go down to the keys and fish. Which two days of the year would you go and how would you fish them?
SPEAKER_00Um, so I've had very good luck on four around 4th of July uh in the keys. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's just because we dedicated more time. Like we would go, I think so, 20. I mean, I don't know, I don't like two years in a row. One month we had an Airbnb in Key West the whole month. It was July, and we went out with Scott and his wife Lindsay and their kids, uh, Great Ninchandler. We all went to the sandbar, and then we just checked the permit and bone fish spots on the way home, and like we ended up I caught a permit and a bone fish just on the way back from the sandbar. And then the year after we went, and me, Scott, and I both caught bone fish like on the way back in from the sandbar. We're like, we're gonna check this spot, it's usually pretty good. So if I had to pick two days, I would say July 4th and July 5th.
JasonOkay, back to back, huh?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
JasonOh, that's fair enough. And you're just gonna be what kind of gear are you using? Are you still glass down there? Or what what what's your good fly line and leader setup? Like, what's your go-to kind of thing?
SPEAKER_00So, what's funny is I have a running joke with Marcos. Um, I use a Echo Badass Glass, and you know, he's an epic guy, so he's kind of bougie. Um and then uh he had a Hardy, I don't remember which Hardy reel it was, but and they like I'm not gonna bash Hardy, they make great products, but I had just this joke with them to ruffle his feathers a little bit where I'm like, you know, that reel's gonna corrode, right? And I was like, that thing's just gonna corrode on you. And uh I had an old Sage 3280 that I bought for my wife uh one year, and when I proposed to her and gave her that T-bore, I was like, I'm taking that Sage from you. So I've been using that Sage 3280 for God, I don't know, like five, six years now. And um, that Echo 7 weight badass glass, I've had that, I've used that same setup. I have a nine-weight setup, but I like to throw the glass. So I would say like my setup is Echo 7 weight badass glass and that Sage 3280. Well, Marcus is Hardy, you know, we'd fish all that keep his gain and we would go wash off our gear. I'll just throw mine in the back of the truck and he'd have his taken apart and cleaning it. And that Hardy actually did end up corroding, which I don't think it was Hardy's fault. I just think it was like a like a fluke thing, but um, it actually did end up corroding, and my sage is still kicking it, man. I don't ever wash it, which is terrible advice. I would if you'd have fly gear, take care of it, wash it. I just I don't um, but that's my setup, man. It's it's been my go-to for a very long time, and I and I abuse it. I absolutely abuse it. Is it all floating line or are you sinking or sinking tippets or I use a floating line? Um, I use some guys uh for bone fish or permit. I it's again because the opinions in the fly fishing industry are outrageous, and everyone's got a different one, and theirs is always better. But some guys will use an intermediate for permit or bone fish. I don't. I use a floating line, um, and I'll fish or I'll typically fish a 12 foot to fourteen foot leader, um, just to give myself that extra distance from the fish to like maybe spook them a little less. Yeah. Um, so I'll sh I'll fish like a 12 to 14 foot leader uh with a floating line. And the leader is floating too. No, it's just like a standard, just like your typical. I don't tie my leaders, some guys do. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's probably better than buying you know, a store-bought leader, but I just buy Rio bone fish leaders. Uh I think they come in nine or ten foot, and I add a couple feet to it. Um it's just a standard tapered leader.
JasonAre the flies the flies weighted then? Or are you getting, I mean, are you just fishing for these on the surface the whole time then? Or how do you get the fly down? The fly is weighted. So that that's the main thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes. The flies are always weighted. Um anything really like I've always had the best luck with whether it be I tie my own, which I like to do, uh, because I can get exactly what I want. Whether I tie my own or I fish a store-bought fly sometimes, um they're always gonna be weighted. Yeah, because you want to get that fly down and have it sitting in the sand for that bone fish or permit to see it, then you can start ticking it. Um, so yeah, you would have like your fly, I have like a floating line, 12 to 14 foot leader, and then a weighted fly. And the keys, I would say like strong arm Merkin. Some people might get mad at me for saying that, but I mean, it's kind of a well-known thing now. I mean, that's a great pattern for the keys, but anything spawning, I like a either a strong arm Merkin, everybody has their variation on it. I think Dave Skoke, I think, is the guy that made that fly. I may have that wrong. Um, but they sell his hand-tied flies at uh the angling company in Key West, and I could tell you that 20 bucks a fly, you go to this you go to Angling Company in Key West and you buy that strong arm Merkin for them, it's worth every $20 because that fly catches fish. Um or a spawning shrimp. Like anytime I tie things on my own, it's always gonna have like a touch of orange, it's supposed to mimic like a spawning shrimp, like a little egg sack. And the fish are gonna prefer that, I think, over any other type of fly for the most part.
JasonWhat's something that you learned fly fishing down there, like a breakthrough moment where you really upped your game or you had like a you know, you took it to the next level in your fly fishing in the keys? Do you have a memory like that or a day like that?
SPEAKER_00I don't know, right? It's weird. So I can't really narrow it down to one thing. I could say definitely switching to a glass rod and focusing more on technique was a game changer for me. Uh so definitely like that. I think I would say that if if anything, it would be just getting that casting technique down and patience. Um, just if you can get very anxious if you see a tailing bonefish or a tailing permit, and you get all fired up and you get it, but like the doesn't matter, like you're gonna get excited, dude. I still get excited. You just have to remember to like kind of contain that excitement just for your cast.
JasonWell, the glass is gonna make you do that because if you if you don't, then you're totally like you're not even close, right? You gotta you really gotta adjust for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you can see where like I think anybody who fly fishes could probably notice this about themselves if they pay attention. If I'm practicing my casting on the beach and there's nothing around, there's no fish, I'll cast that fly, you know, 50, 60, 75 yards. You put me on the bow of a boat, or I'm saying on a platform, and I see a tailing bone fish, that is going to affect your casting because now there's a little bit of pressure there, right? You're gonna feel that pressure no matter what. Like you're gonna get a little bit more nervous, a little bit more amped. You're gonna think about where you want that fly to be, and you're gonna like overcompensate to try and make it there, whether that be point your rod there in the middle of a cast, which is gonna, you know, kind of destroy your loop. Um, or like you don't follow that ten and two, you like push the rod as far, like you think that pushing that fly, pushing that rod is gonna give you that extra distance when it's not.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say. Probably the thing that helped me the most, that game changer, would be getting that glass rod, because it it really helped me focus on my technique.
JasonIf somebody's going down to the keys, I've talked about this before, but there's this idea about you got to go on a SCIF with the platform like you described. And then I talked to folks like you or Marcos that are wade fishing and key with Kane. Is there options for both down there in the keys? Because your introduction, you said you're on the the paddleboard. So is paddleboard another good option? Or let's say you're kind of you're going down there. Maybe you go with a guide one day, but you know, you're down there for a week and you want to fish and you don't, you know, you're not going to go with a guide every day, let's say. What's a good way to approach fishing in the keys for bone fish if you're kind of doing a little bit of DIY, even if you are going to use a guide to kind of get your bearings?
SPEAKER_00So I would say the Keys is a very, you know, it's a small place. Um, there's not a lot of landmass there, but the fishery from Key Largo to Ala Marada to Marathon to Key West are so different as far as like the water, like in Key Largo, where I happen to fish. Uh, you know, Key Largo is closer to like the Everglades, so that water is a little less it's less clean than it would be in Key West. Um, the fisheries a little different there. I would say there, uh, you have your best shot at catching them via paddleboard. You can kind of catch them easier on paddleboard and key largo. Um, probably the same thing with ala Morata. Water starts to clean up a little bit there. Um, there's a few places you can paddle to. An Alamarada on paddleboard and uh or a kayak or um waiting is kind of out of the question. Um, but a paddleboard or a kayak, it's doable. I mean, any of those flats are pretty much gonna hold bone fish depending on time of year, tide. But key west is a whole different ball game. Like that Key West, you really need to go with a guide. I mean, I would recommend going with a guide anywhere you're at in the keys because it's a tough fishery. Yeah, it's a good fishery, but a tough fishery. Um, plus, it's good to you know give those support that local business down there. That's super important. And it's man, bone fishing's tough. So trying to do it all DIY is is is really hard. Really hard. But your better shot DIY would be key largo or a la morada, I would say.
JasonAnd paddleboard, like what's that like? So getting into one of these fish on a paddleboard, is that introduce its own challenges?
SPEAKER_00Uh, not really, because you know, you're gonna have your you're gonna have your drag set kind of loose with a bone fissure permit. That way you don't break them off. You're not gonna set it super tight to where like it's gonna drag you on the paddle board. Now you go find a 60, 70, 80, 100 pound tarpon, you cast that on a paddleboard, yeah, you're gonna go for a ride. I wouldn't recommend that, especially if you're if you're newer or you're not super confident in your skills.
JasonAnd so you're paddling out to these areas and casting to what are you are you sight fishing for the paddle board? Okay, so you're looking for tailings and then casting to that.
SPEAKER_00Tailing, yeah, you're gonna look for uh I mean tailing is tough. You don't see as many tailing fish now. I mean, I I can't speak to the past because you know I have only been really fly fishing since like 2015, 16, I would say. But I can't so I don't know how how many tailing fish they see back in the day, but you may see some tailing bone fish uh or permit. Um, more often than not, you're gonna actually see them on the bottom. You're gonna see, and it's something you really need to train your eye to. I had the hardest time spotting a bone fish or a permit when I first started. Yeah, I've heard them called ghosts. Yeah, they're ghosts of the flats for the reason, right? So, like I would have people point at them, like, dude, it's right there, and I'm like, I can't see it. But once you see it and you're like, okay, now I know what it looks like, you'll be like, oh, now I can spot them sometimes before a guide that I'm with. So I mean, you're gonna see mud if they're mudding up, looking for some, you know, shrimp or crabs or whatever. Or you'll see kind of like you really see kind of like their their shadow is what you're gonna see from when the sun hits them and they'll cast that shadow on the flat, you'll see that. But yeah, that's you just check all the flats uh in Alamorada or Key Largo at certain tides. Um, like I said, I like a falling tide uh and check the edges, and I mean you'll see them eventually. It's just gonna take it's not easy. Like you you might go out. I mean, it took me, God, I don't know, it took me I would say like two years before I caught a bonefish on fly, and I finally had to go with Craig Brewer to do it. But ever since then, man, like I was able to see them and seeing them is the most important part.
JasonWell, that just speaks to like persistence and the journey, and there's more to it than just catching fish, right? We talk about this a lot on the show. And what was it that kept you coming back with all these kind of because you're going quite a bit. So what made you not give up on it? I guess when it takes you two years to get that bone fish.
SPEAKER_00That that moment that you get to hold it and and release it, uh, watch it swim away. That's what always always keeps you coming back. And with bone fish and permit, it's the initial run, right? Like you set that hook and they're they're gone. Like they'll I've had that seven-weight glass rod I was fishing with Benny Blanco. And I have I don't know. I would guess Benny said it was around nine or ten pounds. Uh, it was supposed to be like only small bone fish in that flat. We were kind of just messing around one day between photo shoots. And he's like, Oh, yeah, your seven weight's fine. There's usually not big fish on this flat, usually all small. And I hooked a bone fish with him that was probably nine or ten pounds, and that first run, it I probably had three feet of backing left in my reel. And I looked at Benny and I was like, dude, I think we're gonna have to chase this bone fish. Like, I've that is wild to me. Um, so that first run is I think what's gonna what's gonna keep you coming back. Like when you see how quickly they can peel that line off, that's a feeling that is unmatched by a lot of things.
JasonWell, I believe you, and it's on my list. I want to get down there and and do some of this stuff because um the more I talk to you guys, the more that I get excited about this opportunity for myself at some point. But I want to know also when you were not catching fish and you didn't have a bone fish in your hand and they weren't making the runs, for you, Tommy, what is it that made you keep going after them when you didn't have that success yet?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I kind of when I set my mind to something, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. Like if I say I'm gonna catch a bone fish on fly, if I had not fished with Craig that day, I would have still gone out every day. Like I wanted that bone fish on fly bad. How bad do you want it, right? Like some people are like, that'd be cool to catch a bone fish on fly. And they may not put the year or two into getting it. I think that's like a a personal thing. And like I tried to explain to my wife, she gets frustrated sometimes if the fishing's slow or whatever. But at the end of the day, man, like if you get on a paddle board and you go out there with a fly rod and you're in the middle of a flat in Alamorada, and it's beautiful out there, and you don't catch a fish, like okay, look where you are. Yeah, it's not a wasted day. No, like look at the scenery. Look, you just got to spend your day away from people on this beautiful flat. Um, and so for me, it's like, well, what's the worst thing that happens? I get a paddleboard ride and get to enjoy the beautiful like water in the keys. Okay, great. I didn't I didn't lose anything.
JasonYeah, so if you're thinking in hindsight, would you have gone with Craig sooner? Or if I if I'm going down there, would you say go with a guide, get your bearings, get you know, learn to see what they look like, learn some of the basics, get get at least some tools in your tool bag, and then you can maybe decrease that two-year period. I mean, is that fair? Or sorry, dude, you're just gonna have to work hard for two years to get it done.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say like definitely going with a guide helps because you're gonna, and I don't know, this is every guide's a little different. Some of them get annoyed with questions, some of them love talking, and some of them just want to pull the sniff and and point out fish to you, and they don't want to talk to you about anything else, and some of them really enjoy teaching.
JasonNot all guides are teachers, I agree. That's true.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so if you go with a guide, right, there's like some kind of etiquette where you know you're not gonna you can ask the guide questions like, hey, don't be like, hey man, what's this island called? Like, don't do that. Because then they're gonna be like, oh no, you're you're just gonna come here. Like, don't go spot poach, that's not cool. But really, and all you're gonna do, like what happens? Like, let's say you get that spot from that guide, right? And you go back there. Well, great, now you have one bonefish spot. Well, if that spot fizzles out as they do uh from overfishing, and fish have fins and they swim all over the ocean. Um, there's there's no fences in the ocean, right? So if you only know that one spot, you're not in that spot's dead that day, then you're not catching anything. If you go with a guide, ask them, try and understand, say, Hey, what tide is it? Oh, it's an incoming tide. Okay, why why? So, like, why are we here fishing incoming tides? Like, I'm curious. And they may tell you, oh, because this flat didn't have water on it, and slowly the shrimp and crab make their way back as the water comes in and the fish will follow them in, and you're like, okay, now I understand something about the tides, or hey, why is this leader so long? Or hey, why am I selecting this fly? Like, ask them questions that you can have answers to that will help you understand fishing versus trying to get spots, and then you know, usually a guide is gonna put you on fish, you and we talked about before, like seeing them. If he's able to point it out to you and you can see it, and then you see another one, another one, the more you see it, the easier it is. So if you take these couple little pieces of info you get from this guide and you now have seen a couple fish, well, now you can go explore on your own and figure it out. Then you have like all the tools needed versus having a spot.
JasonYeah, I think those are wise words. I think the way that I think about that in my fly fishing uh game or whatever is know your wise. If you know your wise, then you learn much faster because you're not just doing things on accident or haphazardly, you're doing them deliberately. And from where you uh where you were gonna fish that day to what what type of water you're gonna fish, to which fly you're gonna put on, like uh to when you're gonna change um any of those variables, you know. Uh there's if there's a reason, then you're making uh deliberate decisions uh because of why you may or may not need something that's different than just, well, it's not working, let me try something else. That's random. If you understand why you would do something or why you caught a fish, uh it's easier to progress in my mind. And I think I think you're gonna learn something with the uh guides out on the water just from the experience as well. You're gonna observe things and learn from going for sure. But I think if you're able to at least just ask questions that are meaningful, like you said, you're gonna learn a lot more. And I also I don't know what your opinion is on this, but I always tell the guide, I'm here to learn. Like I want to learn. So anything you have to share is welcome to me. I I'm not gonna get upset if we don't catch a big fish or a lot of fish. Like that would be awesome. But I I really want to just learn about this fishery and how you fish it, you know.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's kind of uh I want to touch on that just for one second, just because I think it's super important. Um, some people, like let's say you fly fish, right? And you your thought, like it doesn't for some reason it doesn't connect to people. So they'll say, All right, I've tried to catch easebone fish for so long on a fly rod and I can't do it. It's so hard. And then they're like, I'm gonna go with a guide and he's gonna get me one. Well, fishing is fishing, right? Like sometimes you're gonna go out there and see 20 bone fish in a day, and sometimes you're gonna see one. You got one shot. If you mess that cast up, that's it. That's the only shot you got all day. And I think some people go out with a guide and they're kind of like, and I went and I paid this guy $650 and he didn't catch me a bone fish. And it's like, dude, the guide's job is to show you fish. It's up to you to make that cast happen. You know, you're the one that's really in control of if you catch that fish or not. Sometimes fish are picky, I get that, especially permit. Like, dude, permit are uh they're dicks, right?
JasonYeah, that's what I hear.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, they are absolutely uh the the textbook definition of a dick. I mean, they'll follow your fly and they'll be like, meh, I don't want it. And then you'll pull it, I'll go like you gotta pull your fly out fly out of the water to reset, and then they'll come eat it at the top of their water, and you're like, What? What did what just happened, right? So the fish can be dicks, there's no there's no fences in the ocean, the fish are constantly moving. But that that guide wants you to catch a fish more than you want to catch a fish. And I just want people to, when you book a guide, like if you don't catch a fish that day, man, don't take it out on them. Like, trust me, they want you to catch a fish more than you want to catch one yourself because they they a lot of guides love that feeling of of putting somebody. That's how I am. I would rather go out and watch my wife fish and have her catch one sometimes than me catch one on my own. Because like watching her catch one is like very satisfying, and that's how guides are too. So, you know, fishing is fishing. Sometimes it's tough. Sometimes a guide's gonna go out there and you're not gonna see fish because the day before there was a little rain, maybe it changed the water temperatures a little bit, the wind was blowing different, and the fish moved, and you're just not gonna find them. And that's fishing. So, like, try not to take that out on your guide, like, especially if you know going into this, like how hard a bone fish or a permit is on fly, and your guide doesn't get you one. Like, people are like, Oh, that should be able to just get me one. Like, okay, well, it's not that easy, otherwise, you would have done it by yourself and you wouldn't be hiring a guide. So, I think that's something that you should take into consideration if you go bone fishing or permit fishing with a guide, is sometimes no matter you know, the the best guides in the keys get skunked.
JasonI think that's important you say that as well, because that's also good for people's confidence. It's to understand that it is difficult and it's not a guarantee when you go to the river or to the flats or wherever you're going fishing. Like it is like you said, it's it's fishing, it's fishing. You're not it's not catching, it's fishing. And uh when you do have those days where you don't catch fish, it's important, I think, to remember also that even the best even the best of us have days where it's just not happening for them, right? And some of that is uh what keeps us coming back. But I agree completely. And that's why I think it's important to have a conversation in the beginning and say, look, I I get it, but I'd like to learn. I want to ask you about uh photography some more and fish handling and how you balance the two of those things because you know photography is your world now, that's your profession, and you're really good at it. And but at the same time, I know that taking care of these fish is important to you. So can you talk me through maybe a little bit of the learning curve that you had on that and some of the lessons you've come up with?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I would say I'll just kind of keep this one pretty simple, right? Like everybody wants that epic fish photo for their Instagram or whatever. Um, I can tell you with 100% certainty, as many images as I've shot for companies or sold to magazines or whatever, not a single image of somebody holding a fish on the boat has ever been purchased from me, nor has it been used in any advertisement. They're not cool. Holding a fish in the boat is not a cool photo. It's terrible for the fish, and it's a terrible photo. If you went to my website and looked at all like some of my bone fish pictures with Benny Blanco or or Matt George with the sailfish, or really anybody like that, you're gonna see that those side-of-the-boat photos are always the best photos, and they're the best for the fish. So, like, I would say for me, everybody's not the same. Some people are very all about themselves. So they want that, they'll hold that bone fish for 15 minutes to get that perfect shot, and then it's gonna die. Um, and you may see it swim away and be like, oh, that thing lived. Well, it may swim 50 yards and die. So I would say, like, please, if you uh if it just like with trout, you know, if you're gonna handle the fish, wet your hands first and try and get that boat side photo. They're they're just so much better, they're more natural. Uh, you're not holding a bone fish on like over your lap. Um, I mean, I've been guilty of it. Uh we were with Benny, like when I caught that big bone fish, he's like, just sit where you are, and he handed me the fish and I held it, and then we put it right back in the water. I was that wasn't a I was so excited catching that nine or ten pound bone fish because that was my biggest one, and I wasn't in my role behind the camera, I was in front of it, which is also very weird for me.
JasonWhat's the danger? Is it the the is it just you're gonna have the fish out of the water longer, or is it yeah, I dropped the fish now it's on the boat, and that's obviously bad, or what is I mean it's a few things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like dropping it on the boat is obviously terrible for it, but you know, bonefish and most fish trout, like they have a slime coat on them, then that's kind of their protection from disease and from all that. And the more you handle that fish, you rub that slime coat off, and now you're making them susceptible to any kind of parasites or diseases that they'd normally be protected from with that slime coat in place. So I would say, like, you know, put them over, keep them in the water if always. And if you have somebody get in the water with the camera and get that boat side photo, like you can hold their tail, support their belly, and give them a little bit of lift out of the water and then drop it right back in and get it gone. You know, everybody is guilty of it. I'm guilty of it, you know, holding a fish for maybe a little too long. That was before I was educated on that particular Yeah.
JasonI've done some pretty I've made some big mistakes in that in that world as a kid growing up and earlier in my days. But um that's why we talk about it, man. And that's why people learn and we pass it along. And what are some other things? So getting out of the boat is interesting. I mean, I think that that's super cool, and I think maybe that doesn't occur to everybody. So I uh it's interesting to hear you say that because I think that's more like, oh, uh a professional photographer would do that, but a lot of the places you're fishing, it's not like you're jumping in, you know, 50 foot deep water, so you could get out of the boat, and now you're more of in the in the environment, and maybe it's a little safer for the fish as well. Would you I mean, what's your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, safer for the fish. Um the photos are gonna look better. Like I said, I've never had someone buy a fish photo where it's in the boat. They all buy the ones at the side of the boat because they just look better. Like it looks more epic, it looks more natural, uh, it's more respectable. You know, you're not I I'm glad to see that a lot of these brands have really stepped up when it comes to conservation and fish handling and all that. Like, they're not gonna put most of them a picture of you holding a bone fish in the boat. They're gonna be like, that's not worth the backlash, I'm gonna get online. So getting out of the boat just makes for a better photo, and it's like we said, safer for the fish. And uh, you know, just keep in mind that uh you said, you know, you're not jumping into 50 feet of water. Uh I'll hang off the side of the boat for those kind of photos, those particular photos. Just have somebody maybe go to the front of the boat and hold that fish, and then you go to the back and just kind of lean over and get that shot. But just because you're not in 50 feet of water doesn't mean that it's not like no risk to it. So uh just be careful of where you're stepping. Uh if you're on a flat, you know, maybe not walk around. If you're gonna get that shot, maybe get in, get in one spot, take that photo, get back in the boat. Don't walk all over the grass and and kill it. And you know, you may sink up to your knees in mud.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh to your waist, and some of them are harder bottom. It's gonna be you could run around on there, but uh don't dive head first, yeah. Yeah, just be careful when you get in because you can sink. I I shot photos with Ryan Nitz uh in the mangroves. He had a 43-inch snook, and I was like, dude, get in the mangroves, this is gonna be a great photo. And I jumped off the skiff and literally went waist deep in mud and I couldn't get out. So I had to hand my camera up and they a little had to pull me out of the mud. So just be careful before you step off. Ask your guide, like, hey, is it cool if I get off here? Or if you're not with a guide, just kind of give it a little test. Don't just jump off the boat, ready to get that epic photo.
JasonSo you're just leaning over the side, I guess, and and taking a picture that way and and uh keeping the fish close to the water as as long as possible, just to prevent uh the potential of removing that slime if it falls on the boat or if you're holding it too long out of the water, or like it they flop around and now it's on your lap, type of stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and if you get and honestly, like not don't even keep the fish out of the water, like keep it in the water and then kind of give them a three count, like hey, on I'm gonna say one, two, three, go. When I say go, you lift that fish, and that's when you're gonna take your shot because A, that fish is in the water, breathing, slime coat's good. And when you say go and they lift that fish, if your shutter speed's high enough, which is a whole nother topic, um, you'll get like that super epic like drip photo that everybody likes. Like, that's how you get that. So, not only is your picture super epic because you get that water dripping off of them, but it's better for the fish too. So, like, that's a win win.
JasonThat is a win win. I'm glad you brought all this stuff up. Are there anything else that you'd like? To share with folks about photography in the saltwater game, like tricks the trade or something that they could uh take away.
SPEAKER_00Man, I'm not gonna talk about that all day. Uh I guess, I guess, man. Super passionate. It's a big, big passion of mine. Um, but yeah, man, like if you if you're interested uh in photos, like if you love, if you do enjoy taking photos with your phone, get a camera and and learn it. Um, and even if you don't have the intentions of uh of making it a career, you can get some pretty epic photos um just to have. Like I mean my wife have all these photos piled up on two big hard drives. And eventually I'll get around to printing them in books so that way like one day when we have kids and they're older and I have grandkids, like they have these images to like have forever because I don't have that from my family because it wasn't cool back then to take photos. You know, nobody was doing social media, nobody carried a camera, it's like a wind-up Kodak disposable camera was like what people had.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh cameras weren't mainstream. So I would say, like, I get a cameraman and and really, if nothing else, um, something that I noticed is when you get a camera, you kind of stop and appreciate the beauty of some of the fish that you wouldn't notice before. So, like you catch a hundred-pound tarpon on the fly rod, it's next to the boat, it's crazy couple minutes, and uh then you just let that fish go. And you never really got a chance to stop and and admire it for a second, right? Because it's chaos, chaos. You grab that mouth, you take a quick photo, and then you want to let that thing go so it has a good chance of survival. You don't ever actually get the chance to see everybody thinks a tarpon is like a giant silver fish. Um, but if you look at some of my photos, uh and or who else does Nick Shurgio, I think his name is. There's a bunch of good photographers on Instagram, but uh you can see like those those close-up photos of like a tarpon scale and how much color the purples, the teals, the gold, the they all have different colorations, and same thing with the bone fish. People think it's a silver fish. It's not, it has color, it has yellows, it has golds, it has blacks, it has blues. Like you don't notice that and appreciate the the fish, how beautiful they are until you have a camera. It makes you look at it different. If somebody else is catching it and you get that photo, you're like, wow, I never noticed how pretty this tarpon actually is. And I think that introduces a whole new aspect, and I think it makes you appreciate the fish more, which in turn you appreciate the fishery more. So I think it's like a big full circle.
JasonI agree. I think it is a full circle. I think one thing I appreciate about your photography is some of the closer-up things and you show the beauty, and you're not gonna get that with the the grip and grin over the boat, like you said, from far away. Still a beautiful fish, but you know, if you want to capture the things that you're talking about, it requires maybe a little more thought and a little more artistic kind of edge, maybe to take the time to look and see what is it about this that I want to capture this moment, this story, uh, which you do very well. And uh so I appreciate you sharing some of those things. And I think it's cool that you brought up the full circle thing with your grandfather. You know, when you're a grandfather and you you want your kids to and your grandkids to be out there fishing, you know, hopefully you still have the the one from your grandfather to give them and you can take them out with that and just say, look, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this because it's special and it's important that you that you do this, and then we'll get you a different rod. We'll get you a different one. I'll put you on the the badass class in a minute, but we're gonna fish grandpa's rod.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you you'll have like, you know, it would be cool to have like here's your great grandpa's rod, and here's your grandpa's pictures of tarpon he caught in the keys in 2012 or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I think that like that is a very cool thing to to leave for your kids and your grandkids. But I mean, yeah, dude, it's it's very photography is something that I think everybody should not get into as a career, but like I don't know, I think explore. Yeah, just just dabble in it, and if it's your thing, great. And I think you'll really, really fall in love with it. And then some people it's not their thing, and that's okay. That's what people like me are for. You just pay me to come take your photos. Um that's not your thing, but yeah.
JasonYeah. I I mean, I want to wrap it up, but I do want to ask maybe a little bit more about the the business side and the transition into the professional realm. You mentioned networking and such. Was there anything else that was important for you to take that plunge, or it just, you know, just kind of happened naturally, or was there anything that you did that you can look back and say, those were some moves that I made that made a difference?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I'll try and keep that kind of as brief as possible. Networking is as number one king, you know, it's kind of all about who you know. Uh, there's some photographers, there is a lot of photographers on Instagram that are much better than I am. I mean, I don't look at I don't hold myself to this like level where I think I'm the best because I'm far from the best. There is so many talented photographers out there networking. You could be the best photographer in the world. And if you don't know how to network, you ain't getting work. Um, I mean, you gotta really talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And then, you know, if it's something that you want to push into a career, just know that like there's a healthy balance for um what we call free-to-fee. So, you know, you could go out like the way that I got started with Benny is I I really have a I'm pretty passionate about the Captains for Clean Water movement. And I had seen him at the Fort Lauderdale boat show, and I was talking to him about, you know, uh Captains for Clean Water and the Hells Bay Astera, the bay boat that was there. And um, I just mentioned him, I was like, hey man, check out my photos. Like if you ever want, you know, if you ever have a day where you want some photos taken, like I'll come out, no charge, I'll just, you know, have a day on the water with you and get you some photos. And then that turned into me shooting photos for Benny, paid eventually. Uh, so there's times where like you can leverage that photography as like, hey man, I'll offer my services to you for free, but picking the people that you do that for is also very important. Like, is that person somebody that you think may use you in the future? Um, is it somebody that's connected in industry that they already have a photographer, but they may be able to refer you to other people? And that's the tough part that you're gonna have to learn uh trial by fire, basically. You know, you I've I've been burned by a few people that are like, hey man, well, I can I can get you uh I can get you work if you just come take free photos from me. Usually that guy is not gonna get you anything, don't listen to that guy. And I and that that's not just for photography, that's for any business. Like I had when I was in the plumbing business, I'd have real estate agents. Hey man, if you give me a deal on this plumbing, uh, you know, I can get you more work. And I was like, oh, okay, cool, and I'll go do it. And then I got nothing from them. So what I started doing with them is how about this? I'll charge you full price, and every time you use me, I'll give you a little bit more of a discount, or every time you refer me, I'll give you a discount. So I started working it that way. Um, and it's kind of the same thing with photography now. Like, let me shoot for you. And if you really love my work, you're gonna pay me and you're gonna use me again. And if you use me again, I'll throw you a little discount next time. But there are gonna be people that you do need to shoot for free for to make those connections.
JasonOkay, that's useful, I think. And you're looking for customers, right? You're I mean, ultimately you're looking for somebody that has a demand for photography, and you're gonna fill fill that demand by taking great photographs, but also being on time and being professional and all those other things. Uh, and so you're just kind of trying to find those people that are gonna be able to be customers for you, I guess. I I never I mean that sounds basic, but to hear you describe it, I never really thought about like when you're networking, like those are the folks that you want to find, it's people that actually need your services.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and also, you know, what is that what is that person doing that you're that you're pitching to, right? Like a lot of mistakes photographers make when they're first starting, including myself, is you go to a guide, hey man, I'll love to shoot photos for you, blah, blah, blah. Like if you're just trying to build a portfolio, you know, it there's it's not a bad thing to shoot for guides, but if your sole purpose is to get work from them, chances of a guide paying you to do photos for his Instagram is not gonna happen. He gets paid to take people fishing, and he's gonna have pictures, and he doesn't care if they're iPhone pictures, and he's probably so busy that if he shut his Instagram off tomorrow, he's still gonna be busy. So that's like the wrong, it's like knowing who to target. Now, you could maybe find a guide like I did with Benny and say, hey man, let me shoot some photos for you. Benny happened to have a TV show, um, which he needs sponsor images for, and that's kind of what I did for him. But you know, you could you if it was not if you take Benny from the equation, just your everyday fishing guide, and you say, Hey man, let me come out with you. I want to get some images. I'm just be honest with them. Say, I'm trying to build my portfolio. I would like to get some inshore fishing pictures for my portfolio, and then in turn, I will give those photos to you. You can use them for your marketing, for your social media, you know, whatever. That that way, both of you guys win. The guy gets some cool photos for his Instagram, you have some photos for your portfolio, and that guy may not be the one that's gonna pay you, but he may know a sponsor that goes, Hey, who took that picture of you wearing that weighed out their hat? Oh, that's my buddy Tommy. Okay, cool. I need his number. I would love for him to shoot photos for me. So it's just kind of like knowing, like, know that that guide is not gonna be purchasing photos from you, but he may have a connection that will. Um, so just kind of know your audience, you know, know who to offer that service to, that free-to-fee, as we say.
JasonRight. And it's companies too. It's not just individuals, it's businesses and brands and things like that that you can reach out to. I mean, you're gonna reach out to individuals ultimately, but individuals that are part of those businesses and brands, and um, that's part of the networking, maybe that you're talking about, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and just be active on just tough to say social media now because you know, Instagram has turned into TikTok. Uh, you're like, it's they've built their whole career on being a photo sharing app, and now they're TikTok, uh, they don't care about photographers anymore, which is really kind of it sucks, but you know, still be be engaged, like follow people in the industry. Don't don't post things on your Instagram and then tag all these people to come like and comment on your photo if you're not gonna go do that for them, too. Like, if you see this is something that I think maybe is like very important too, is I see this whole thing nowadays with photographers like kind of dumping on other photographers, and it's like sucks. Yeah, well, it's it's like guides dump on other guides, right? It's just like a competition thing. But like the if you like if you have other follow other photographers, if you really appreciate their work, leave a comment on their Instagram and tell them, like, dude, that's a sick picture, and engage with all those people and do that with as many people as you can and be genuine about it. Don't go just leave some BS comment just to do it, but be genuine with other people, show them that you appreciate their work, they'll in turn do the same thing to you, and then you may have that photographer reach out to you one day and go, hey man, um, I have a guy in Florida that contacted me, but you know, I'm in North Carolina and I can't get there. Do you want to do it? And you may get jobs like that. Like it's just being respectful of people in the industry and talking to everybody you can.
JasonYeah. All right. Well, that's all good information. And I appreciate you sharing that and taking the time, Tommy, because I do think that's helpful for a lot of folks that are thinking about this type of career path. And even if you're not, it's interesting to hear about. I think I'm interested by it. And it's my show, so I get to ask the question. Uh all right. Tommy, before I ask you my last question, how can people find out more about you? See some of your photography, and maybe if you could talk a little bit about some of the projects you have coming up that you're excited about or anything really that you're excited about.
SPEAKER_00So on Instagram, I have two. It's Boston, like the city, inked I-N-K-E-D. Um, that's like my personal page I've had for a long time. And then my business one is Finns and Fly Creative. Um, that's just like my business page. Same thing, that's my website, Finnsandflycreative.com. As far as projects coming up, I have something coming up with Marcos. Uh we're doing it December, which I'm pretty excited for. It's an electric outboard for its company called Newport Vessel, which is actually really cool. Like the concept of an electric outboard is is awesome. So I'm pretty I'm pretty excited to to shoot that with Marcos this month. And then we will be starting up, I believe we'll be starting up a sport fishing championship again in April, which is basically like everybody knows what bass master is for the most part. Yeah. On CBS Sports, it's on now, the first season. Uh it's essentially a Bassmaster, but Marlin fishing tournaments instead of bass tournaments. And uh, we get to hang out with a bunch of other super talented people, get to hang out on big boats. Uh, and you know, the people on the boats, as far as I've always experienced, they're they're all awesome people. Like a I worked on a boat called Gypsy and a boat called Bandito, and that will probably be my two teams that I'm with this year coming up season two as well. Uh, so I'm super excited about that because epic places, uh Marlin fishing, like we said, it'll ruin people. Yeah, pretty tough to match the excitement of that. So I'm pretty excited. I'm I think I'm most excited to get back rolling on season two of uh Sport Fishing Championship because that's something, and Marcos does that with me as well. So uh I'm super excited for that. And if you haven't seen Sport Fish Championship, find it online or find it in CBS Sports, it's super cool.
JasonWell, we'll link to it in the show notes and we'll link to all that stuff that you mentioned as far as getting a hold of you as well in the show notes so people can listen and or so people can see that and see your work because it's uh it's really good, man. And I I think that thank you.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate that.
JasonYeah, I think that people will be uh more than impressed with it. Tommy, last question, you ready?
SPEAKER_00Yep.
JasonIf you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical and one more philosophical. What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?
SPEAKER_00I would say don't get caught up in the expensive gear. You don't need the best of the best of the best gear. It's not going to make you a better fisherman. And honestly, for what people, a quick example would be if I go buy a thousand dollar sage rod and a $900 T-bore, well, you could go buy a $250 badass glass and a $100 Lampsen and have almost enough for probably enough for two guided trips where you'll actually learn something.
JasonThat's a great point, man. That's a really good point.
SPEAKER_00And that that combo has lasted me for a year. So it's not like you're gonna buy something super cheap that's gonna break in six months. So I would say, like, buy something decent and maybe support two guides with their business and learn something. And then honestly, man, like for me, don't make the mistake I did. Don't go on YouTube and try and teach yourself from YouTube. Like, ask somebody who you know is a good caster to show you in person or sign up for some kind of fly fishing. I think Orvis here in Atlanta offers 101 for free. Like, you can walk in the store and they're gonna, they're gonna do it. They're gonna show you for free. Have people who know how to cast. Have somebody that knows how to cast, teach you to cast, watch you cast, and correct your mistakes real time. Um, because the more that you cast incorrectly, the more bad habits you're gonna teach yourself. And trying to teach unteach those bad habits is harder than trying to learn casting from the from the get-go. So I would definitely say that.
JasonSounds good. Those are both good things. Thanks, Tommy. I appreciate you being on the show. I've and really enjoyed talking with you and uh learn, I I've got to get down there to the keys and fish at some point and get into the saltwater game. So every time I talk to folks like you, I get even more excited. So thank you for that. And I wish you well in your business and all your photography. And I really genuinely appreciate you sharing some of those kind of tips of the trade for folks out there that maybe are looking to follow in your footsteps.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Paul. I appreciate it.
JasonThanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog, an online gallery at WadeOutThere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wait Out There.