The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 169: Fly Tying, Pennsylvania Trout, and Confidence Through Observation with Jim Misiura
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In this episode we WadeOutThere with Jim Misiura from North Eastern Pennsylvania. Jim’s journey into fly fishing began with catching trout in his beloved hometown stream with a plastic cricket from the toy box, a size 6 hook, and an old fly rod he bought from a friend. Since that day Jim has been tying and fly fishing on that Pennsylvania trout stream for over fifty years.
He originally began tying out of necessity as a youth in need of flies, but when his sister asked him to teach the children in her class about fly tying, Jim found a new passion in the sport, teaching. Jim started his YouTube Channel in 2010 to help others learn to tie flies and be the mentor he never had starting out.
We discuss fly tying and trout fishing in Pennsylvania, the importance of considering the styles of flies we tie and fish, and building confidence in fly tying through observation.
To learn more about Jim and the topics we discussed in this episode, check out the following links:
Jim Misiura's YouTube Channel
Show notes + MORE
Sign up for Jason's free email newsletter (WadeOutThere Wednesday) at WadeOutThere.com/Wednesday
In this episode, we wait out there with Jim Mashura from northeastern Pennsylvania. Jim's journey into fly fishing began with catching trout in his beloved hometown stream with a plastic cricket from the toy box, a size 6 hook, and an old fly rod he bought from a friend. Since that day, Jim has been tying and fly fishing on that Pennsylvania trout stream for over 50 years. He originally began tying out of necessity as a youth in need of flies, but when his sister asked him to teach the children in her class about tying, Jim found a new passion in the sport, teaching. Jim started his YouTube channel in 2010 to help others learn to tie flies and be the mentor he never had starting out. We discussed fly tying and trout fishing in Pennsylvania, the importance of considering the styles of fly we tie and fish, and building confidence in fly tying through observation. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shefchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thanks for having me.
JasonI'm excited to talk to you, Jim. It's been a long time since I heard your voice for the first time. Uh when I started fly tying, I was down in uh Las Vegas. I was living down there. It was my last active duty Air Force assignment, and uh that's when I got into fly tying, and I kept coming back to your videos. I mean, I I didn't have a lot of resources down there for fly fishing type stuff, but uh so I turned to the internet and YouTube, and uh your your videos were always uh easy for me to understand, easier for me to execute, helpful, yes. And so I just want to say first off, thank you. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01And you're welcome, that's why I do it.
JasonYeah, yeah. It was that was uh shoot, that was maybe 10 years ago when I started tying. Right. Um I'm better. I'm better now for sure, and it's a lot of it's thanks to you. So I really appreciate it. When did fly tying as like a instructional thing start for you? I know that you probably you know, I know you've been tying a while, but when did it click in your brain that you wanted to help people?
SPEAKER_01Oh uh oh, it was quite a few years ago. I I told you earlier in our conversation that my nephew was a pilot in the Air Force. Well, when he was 12 years old, my sister asked if I would uh do a fly tying course for homeschoolers. And so he was 12 and he just retired from the Air Force, so it's been quite a while since I started doing that. Yeah.
JasonSo you did it, started doing it to help your nephew?
SPEAKER_01Yep. Yeah, to help my sister, and uh what I did was uh there was a bunch of homeschoolers in the area, and my sister said, Oh, come every quarter they would get together so they had they would have interaction with other kids. And she said, Oh, could you come and come and do a half-hour presentation at this school that they were gonna use? I said, They ain't gonna know nothing in in a half an hour. So you know, so I gave them a little presentation and I uh and I told them, you know, if you if you're interested in learning how to tie flies, I will I will teach you, we'll figure something out. So I got a list and I got six kids. And uh I would go and my sister lived on the next block from me, so I would pick up my nephew, and we would go to the furthest person's house or wherever we were, and I would pick up the kids on the way, and we would have our our class at a different person's house every every week. And uh, you know, that's that's how I I really got started into uh teaching that way.
JasonWell, it it was certainly helpful for me, and I think it's cool that you started out teaching kids and you know, kind of face to face. I think it's I why do you think fly fishing or fly tying was important to your sister? I mean, it's a homeschooling thing. What what made it something that she thought would be I don't know, important enough to bring into the you know curriculum, you know?
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh well you're you're always trained to give the kids alternatives to uh alternatives to what they would get from a public school or from a school, especially like a public school where they could get into trouble and stuff like that. So the more activities they have, the less likely they are to get into trouble.
JasonYou know, it's how did it work out for your Oh yeah, for sure. How'd it work out for your nephew? Did he did he keep stick with fly fishing and did he fly fish in the Air Force?
SPEAKER_01Uh I think he did a little bit, but I don't think he did a whole lot. But uh you know, I w the last time I talked to him, he said that he uh he always tells people about about me and about uh learning to fly tie and tie flies and uh to fish from me. I think the the re the uh obligations of the Air Force kind of helped or kept him from doing as much as he probably would have liked to.
JasonWell, that's why I asked, because I had the same I had that experience when I was in the Air Force, and uh I wish I would have had more opportunity to fly fish. I probably had more opportunity than I thought. I just I think that I probably thought it was had to be trout and trout streams, and more specifically like Rocky Mountain trout streams, because that's where I kind of found fly fishing. Um, but also, you know, I think fly tying when I was in Missouri, that was my last assignment before we moved to Utah. That was another time where I had a real surge in fly tying. And I think it was because, you know, we had a new baby boy. I was pretty far from a trout stream. I really still wasn't looking at fly fishing as something that I could do for like warm water species or or bass or smallmouth or stuff like that. Right. In hindsight, I wish I had done a lot of those things, but um fly tying really I tied a a lot during those times and filled in the gap when I was in the Air Force. Yeah, filling in the gap in the Air Force and stuff. I mean, is that something that you think about when you're making the videos, or is that something that you've experienced in your life or breaks in fly fishing where fly tying kind of kept you connected?
SPEAKER_01No, the uh I I always had well, except I was in the Navy and that was I I couldn't fly fish then. Uh you know, it's kind of hard to fly fish off the back of a ship, but uh that'd be pretty cool if you pulled it off, Jim. Yeah. But uh yeah, it uh I really didn't have have have any breaks in that kind of sense. When I got out of the navy, I just went right back into uh doing it. And uh at that time, you know, I was you know, because you go in when you're 18, 19 years old, I was still relatively new to fly fishing. So when I got out of the navy, I really uh really got into it. You know, I uh I I actually started fly fishing before I went in when I was in high school. And it's it's kind of a funny little story how I how I actually started fly fishing. I was always uh I was always fishing you know, from when I was, you know, eight or nine, it probably even younger, but I progressed through fishing, you know, bait fishing, using hardware spinners, things like that. And I always wanted to at that time I I wanted to learn fly fishing, and I couldn't even find anyone to I couldn't pay anybody to teach me at that time.
JasonYou know, this was like even in Pennsylvania 70s, early 80s.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in in my area there was very few uh fly fishermen. So and my a friend of mine, he he uh sold me his grandfather's old fly rod. And I got it. I paid 40 bucks, it was a south bend. There was there was a a rod, a reel, and line, and I got the rod. I I went home, I I got a piece of uh I got like 10 feet of strand line off my spinning rod, and I kind of granny knotted it to the end of the end of the fly line, and then I didn't have any flies, so I dug in the toy box and I found I found a little rubber cricket, and I I impaled that little rubber cricket onto a size six bait holder hook and I put it on the rod and I ran back down to the river, and that day I caught six trout on that little rubber cricket when it was floating, and that that was the end. I I uh I didn't use a spinning rod very much ever since.
JasonThat's awesome. So that's kind of the beginning of tying for you, too, your first fly, huh?
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, tying was uh tying was more of a necessity at the time, although I I'm sure I would have got into tying it anyway, because the only place I could get flies was from a regular bait shop, and I was paying fifty cents each, and I would I would uh buy you know maybe a dozen flies a day because they fell apart, the books broke, whatever. You know, I'd catch one fish on it and the and the f and the fly would be falling apart. So I had to I had to learn fly fish fly tying. And uh my father was was a pretty busy man, so he had when he saw and I I mentioned something about I've gotta I gotta learn how to tie flies because these things that I'm buying are garbage. And he says, Oh, I have an old fly tying kit. So he gave me that, and it was all mock eating and everything else, but at least I had some basic stuff. And I started with that, and from there, you know, I progressed. I got when I was when I was learning, what you had to had to do was rent videos, regular VHS videos. So I rented the videos and just basically taught myself how to how to tie, because like I said, I there was nobody that I could even pay to teach me.
JasonThat's interesting. How did you how did it evolve for you then from you know your resources that you used? And now, I mean, your YouTube channel, you've got over six million views on your YouTube channel teaching people how to tie flies. I I think that it's interesting or kind of poetic justice that you've come all this way and now you're on the internet using this tool that you didn't have when you were uh growing up. Can you talk a little bit about the the progression of resources in your fly tying career and like how did you ever get into classes or when did you start doing things besides VHS tapes?
SPEAKER_01Uh well I I uh like I always I always was good at teaching and explaining things so that part kind of came pretty easy to me. Uh but you know, having having the internet, you you you kids don't know how how good you have it, or the kids have don't know how good they have it. Uh and you know it necessity, again, was was the uh was the driving force behind learning to to tie flies and you know and books too. You get a pattern, you get a fly tying pattern book and you try to go by that, it you know, it helps you helps you, but it's not as not as good as having someone and being able to watch someone do it. You know, having a book meaning, okay, there's the recipe. Now what do you do? You know? And uh like my videos, I try to I I make my videos as if the camera is someone watching me tie to fly. You know, if as if as if the viewer is sitting on the other side of the desk from me. Uh and I'm teaching them that way.
JasonYeah, that's something that I definitely got out of the videos.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. It's uh that's why I think they're a good uh resource for learning how to tie. How did you start the YouTube channel? That was my my good friend and I were taking cameras just to taking them fishing, just to uh to record us fishing and see what we can do. And my friend is he's he's a pretty good photographer and a good videographer. So that's uh when we got them, we we were like uh okay, let's put them on YouTube, you know. And uh so that's how I really got into putting stuff on YouTube, and uh, it was it's funny at the beginning when I first started using uh or using or posting on YouTube, him and I would uh we'd be calling each other and saying, Hey, I got five hits or something, and it took a long time. We were like, Oh, who's gonna get to a hundred views first? And uh what year was that?
JasonDo you remember when that was?
SPEAKER_01Uh I think 2010 we started putting them up. And then, you know, the reason one of the reasons I don't put a lot of fishing videos up is when I when I do fishing videos, I do it myself. I I I take a you know a tripod and I put the camera on a tripod and uh do it from there. So I'm like a one-man, I'm the crew, I'm the director, I'm everything. So uh and then lugging everything around is kind of cumbersome a lot of times and things like that. So that's kind of why I don't do a lot of fishing ones anymore. But also another reason is I I think I covered quite a bit in my fishing videos, and with my fishing videos, I like to try to be a teacher also, and that's probably stems from when I was watching those VHS tapes and uh you know watching whether I was watching Joe Humphreys still you know fishing on uh yellow breeches. I he had a video of him fishing on yellow breeches with nymphs and showing you how to how to how to fish there. And I believe that the reason he he did them on the yellow breeches is because they really stock that really heavy. So and you know having stocked fish just just being able to catch fish when you're trick when you're demonstrating it is uh you know that that's a big big advantage to you, you know, because you know, people want to see the end result, put it that way.
JasonYeah, it's a fishing video, the guy never catches a fish, and it's like right. Alright, well, I I guess that you know what you're talking about, but I don't really believe you until I see you catch a fish.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. Exactly. And then I the other another video that I learned a real lot from was Gary Borger. His videos are fantastic. He made them for uh scientific anglers, and uh they they are fantastic. His video his uh video fly fishing made easy. I recommend that to people. You could get it, you could find that on YouTube, but he is uh he's fantastic. I learned a real lot from him, you know. But I I try to, like I said, I try to uh have instructional videos instead of just Joe Hero type, oh, watch me catch these fish and whatever, you know.
JasonYeah. Well, let's talk about Pennsylvania, Jim, and a little bit of your fly fishing. Pennsylvania is I I mean, I've been out there one time fly fishing, and I loved it. I mean, it was so much different than what I'm used to. It was really amazing. I had great fishing, uh, good experiences with good people. Uh-huh. But it's just kind of this like, I don't know, it's a it's a fly fishing, it's a state with a history in fly fishing. There's all kind of uh nostalgia and culture there. I mean, for the fact that you brought up the kids and homeschooling and fly fishing, I mean, I understand your point that we were trying to expose kids to different things that they might be interested in, but I think it speaks to the state's connection to fly fishing that that is even kind of in the cross check that somebody is like, all right. Let's also show them fly tying and get them into fly fishing. So can you can you talk a little bit about why fly fishing in Pennsylvania is uh unique or special for you personally?
SPEAKER_01Uh well it's I I I don't I don't travel Pennsylvania a lot. I I kind of just stay in in my corner in in northeastern Pennsylvania. And uh I was lucky enough to have one of the best trout streams in the state, like two blocks from my house. You know, it when I when I was nine years old, I started as soon as I could get away from my mother without her worrying about me, I was I was like nine and I started fishing in my local river. Uh and then and well and now next next spring will be fifty years that I've been fishing in that uh in my local river. Which uh, you know, I've probably fished almost every inch of of the of that river, and it's like thirty miles long.
JasonFifty years is a long time. That's uh that's a that's uh that's a long time to fish the same river, I'm sure you know it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but it's pretty well Yeah, it was uh you know, in the 70s, everything was polluted. I don't care where you were, just about everywhere was polluted. Doesn't matter where you lived, in Pennsylvania or in the country or even in the world, everything was polluted because man uh destroyed the resources that God gave us. Uh you know, you know how it was in my region it was the coal region, and the the pe the people that uh owned the coal mines thought only of their profits. And everything uh everything was destroyed because of that. But anyway, uh as in uh you know, in the early seventies there was laws putting in effect to clean the streams up and it just gets cleaner and cleaner every year because of that. You know, you take the you take the uh the pollutant out of it and the river will clean itself. You know, and uh one of the reasons the Chesapeake Bay Foundation used to they're they're concerned with my river because it's it's you know there's a lot of gallons going down into the Susquehanna River and then it goes into the Chesapeake Bay, but it just keeps getting cleaner, so yeah, that's a good news story.
JasonUh I mean it it it's uh it's a lot. Um it's great to see uh it's just a healthy fishery. It's great to see that that it's rebounded and right um 50 years fishing. Can you remember um one of the more memorable fish or one of the maybe a fish that you lost and got away or you learned something? Uh I know there's probably dozens, uh, but is there one that sticks out in your mind as particularly either painful or uh that you learned something really from?
SPEAKER_01Memorable. Uh one one of my most memorable times, that my stream or my river, it it's uh it's basically an urban river. Uh the top maybe seven or eight miles is wilderness, if you could say. Not not wilderness, wilderness, but it goes through woods and everything like that. But then you're basically fishing in cities the rest of the way down. But uh my brother and I were fishing, and uh we were fishing right by this bridge, and I look up at the bridge, and there's like a kindergarten class walking across the bridge, and they saw me, and there was kids from one side of the bridge to the other. You know, there had to be 30, 30 or more kids lined up, and they saw and they all stopped, and I caught a fish. And they they all they all watched me catch it and bring it in and get as soon as I got in the net, they all started clapping. That was really cool, you know. That is cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then I wonder, you know, I wonder how many of them got the bug from from watching that, you know?
JasonIt seems like children are, you know, I they keep coming up as like a theme in kind of your fly fishing journey, or you know, you talked about when you started fly fishing and fly tying and these types of things. Uh I I perceive it as kind of a special thing for you. Do you have kids that you've taught to fly fish, or is that something that you deliberately seek out to help children and specifically? And uh if so, why why do you do that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I uh the why is because I I think we have an obligation to pass pass on the heritage to other people and to other generations. You know, we have an obligation to to uh pass it on and pass it on the right way, you know, pass on the ethics and all of that part of it. But uh the homeschoolers that I that I taught, we did it, we did the fly tying in the wintertime, and then in the springtime I actually took them to the stream and uh taught them, you know, fly fishing on the stream. And I still I still now I consider my myself a flight fly tying and fly fishing instructor.
JasonYeah. You teach your kids as well?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I taught my kids, although they're all my youngest one is 27 and the oldest is 33, and uh they have to I never push them to it. But uh, you know, they have their own things going on, and you know, my my one son has has kids himself, so you know he's busy with uh doing that, raising kids and stuff like that. But I also another another point with the getting kids into it and stuff being that my river was is so located through towns, you know, it's an urban fishery. I would I would have I'd be fishing, and I would look back and there'd be you know a a 12 or 13-year-old kid standing there watching me, and and then you know, then he would leave and then he'd come back and stuff like that. So I would start talking to him and pointing things out, like one one time in particular. I was uh I was fishing and there was a sulfur hatch, and the kid kept coming back, and I I started talking to him, and I was like explaining what I was doing and stuff, and I pointed out the bugs on the water, the the mayflies on the water, and I pointed out, okay, watch that one. You see that one there? Now watch, it's gonna float, float, float. I said, when it gets to this point, there's a fish that's gonna come up and eat it. And then the fish came up and ate it. So that that really piqued his interest and stuff. And I said, okay, now watch, here's my fly. I cast it out, keep an eye on the fly, keep an eye on the fly, boom. Fish took it. And then a lot of times I offer to let them bring the fish in. And uh that particular that particular kid didn't uh didn't want to to reel them in, but there's been several times that I I they would take the rod for me and you know just do exactly what I tell you, you land this fish. And then they would they would end up landing a 20-inch brown trout, you know? Which is really that's awesome. Which is really cool.
JasonIs there certain times of year that you prefer to fish it? Or let's say you could only fish your home stream there in Pennsylvania two times in a year, which which two days of the year would you pick to fish it? How would you fish it?
SPEAKER_01The uh if I if I could only fish it two days a year, I would choose uh I won't give you a specific date because bugs don't don't follow a calendar, but I would choose uh probably one day for a sulfur hatch and one day for a Granum Caddis hatch. The best Granum uh hatch of the year that day and the best sulfur hatch of the year that day.
JasonAlright, so dry fly fishing is that that's I'm taking a few.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, dry flies is it took me I I knew how to I knew how to nymph fish like from early on, but seeing a fish come up and and take your fly off the surface is the whole reason I think that people get into fly fishing itself. Because that's the visual the visual excitement of uh of seeing the fish take your fly off the surface of the water. You know, whether it be a a trout or a bass on a on a on a lake, you know, you throw your popper over by the lily pads, and then then there's an explosion, you know. Yeah. Uh that visualness of of fly fishing is what really gets people into it.
JasonAnd it took When do you make the transition from nymphing to dries or dries? I mean, are you gonna Yeah, from drives to nymphing? Uh yeah, when do you say I'm gonna nymph or or vice versa?
SPEAKER_01Uh well I was saying uh for years, I mean, for years and years, you could have held a gun to my head and said and said put a nymph on, and I would have said pull the trigger because I just refused.
JasonThat is you know I just dry or die, Jim. That is dry or die.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. I refused to uh put it on. I would there was times I would there was times I would sit on the bank, sit on a log or something, and watch a certain area, and I would sit there for three, four hours until I would see that those fish start to rise. And because I knew one nice thing is my river is loaded with with large trout 18 to 24 inches, and uh I refuse to to wait or to put on that nymph. But probably in the last 10 years or so, one once the one bad thing about the urban river is because because of the fact that it's urban, people like to to cut trees down and it and it makes the water get warmer faster. So the lower part of my river gets warm. So round around June, the first or second week of June, depending on the weather, it gets too warm down there. And you know, although I could go down there and still catch fish, I don't want to because they're battling, you know, high 60s into 70 degree water. So I go to the top section, which is very small. You know, it's down at down at the bottom, you know, you're 150 feet wide. Up top, you're 30 feet wide. So you know, there's more shade, the water's colder at the top, and it's harder to dry fly in the in the smaller streams. So I would I would put on a nymphite, I would use a you know, a uh hopper dropper style, not necessarily a hopper, but I would use a stone fly as my indicator fly, and then put a nymph off the off of that. And also one another thing to mention, the upper part of my river is uh is stocked. So in the in the early season, when it starts, it's like just say April 1st is beginning of trout season. So from April until the third the third Friday of May, the you they have access, all of the bait fishermen have access. There's an old railroad bed that runs along it, and the gates are open until the third Friday of May. And after the third Friday of May, the gates are closed, and then I have a five-mile stretch all to myself because I'm willing to walk.
JasonYeah, that's a theme that's come up a lot when I hear about Pennsylvania, or you know, just in fly fishing in general, but specifically in Pennsylvania, is the further you walk, the you know, the less crowded will be. And I think it's something cool that I really liked about Pennsylvania because a lot of streams out west, not all of them, you know, um, certainly the bigger ones, but a lot of them, and there's a road right next to it, you know. You kind of drive the road and get out and fish, and you can you can still walk, and there's places where you can get out and you can't access them via car. You gotta walk to further along. But um, and like I said, it's not all rivers, but there's a lot of rivers like that, you know, like my river, the Weber River, or like the South Platte, or like the South Platte's not maybe not exactly like that, but um, you know, the Gallatin. I mean, there's just a ton of rivers that you can that that doesn't really apply, but when I was in Pennsylvania, it truly was like, okay, there's the parking lot, and then you just hike back as far up as you need to go or want to go, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And that that's how it is. I I you know that I think that's the way it is anywhere you you go. It doesn't matter what state you're in or what. Yeah, you're gonna and you're gonna see also more people, you know, obviously more people where the road access is close is closer. You know, and especially especially as you know, as a fisherman, as you're getting older and you don't feel like walking three miles and stuff like that, you're gonna want to stay closer to closer to the road.
JasonUh but by the time you're older, then you're a better fisherman, right? So then yeah, it's not as you don't need to be as far away from the pressure, right?
SPEAKER_01Is that well uh I wouldn't I wouldn't sit exactly say that, but yeah, uh so getting back to to my from before, I go to that uh I go to that upper section, and it's more suitable for them fishing. And there's a lot of my videos that you you can see my a lot of my uh like you know my flight fishing videos where I'm fishing in that small that small part of the stream or the river. And you know, I have solitude, I'm in the woods, you know, I you can't hear cars, you can't hear fire trucks, stuff like that. Uh you know, and they people don't don't utilize and a lot of places in Pennsylvania, I'm sure is the same, people don't utilize the stream long enough into the season. They figure, you know, okay, they stocked whatever, say April 1st. Okay, it's the 14th, there is no fish to be caught. Yeah, how wrong they are. Uh a lot of the bait fishermen and in this area too, and in Pennsylvania, I think in general, there's a lot of truck truck chasers, not fly fishermen specifically, but there's a lot of truck chasers, and you know, if two weeks after the two weeks after the stocking, they figured they're all gone.
JasonOh, okay. Yeah, truck chaser. Okay, I get it. Jim, I usually ask a lot of my guests about uh their favorite flies, and I'm a slightly below average to average fly tire. I like to tie simple patterns mostly because uh time limited, and uh I like to knock out as much as I can when I when I am tying. What if you could only if I was gonna come out there and fish and I wanted to tie some of my own flies, what would be two kind of dry flies, maybe two nymphs that you would recommend that would be good kind of competence flies of yours that are basic um flies that aren't too tough to tie?
SPEAKER_01I I I couldn't put it to two flies. You know, you have to you have to keep an eye on the hatches. You know, you have to keep an eye on the hatches. I would say styles of flies would be a better question. You know, I I am pretty close to the West Branch of the Delaware, which is a very famous uh trout fishery, and there there is just so many hatches on there, you know, you have to, you know, every couple of weeks you're you're fishing a different uh a different uh hatch, you know.
JasonOh, that makes sense. I understand that. Let me put it this way then. What are some what are a couple of your confidence flies or a couple of your flies, uh dry flies and uh and nips, maybe that that you turn to. Um and I know there's tons of hatches, so you you know it doesn't have to be one for every hatch, but just you know, a couple of your uh dry and wet kind of confidence flies.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, uh like like I said, the style of the fly, I think, is is a better one. And the styles of flies, you have a catskill fly. That's what everybody recognizes as a dry fly, a catskill style fly. And okay. They're they're they're fine. That cat skill style is fine, and they're gonna catch fish. When there's a really good hatch happening, they're gonna catch fish. But where there is a lot of pressure on the fish, you're gonna do better with uh with a cripple emerger type uh fly, you know, especially when there's a lot of pressure. And it just makes like it just uh makes sense that a fly that that might fly away any at any second it might be overlooked by the by the trout, but a fly that is crippled or still emerging is gonna get eaten faster because it can't get away so fast.
JasonRight.
SPEAKER_01So say something like a comparidon fly is good is a good uh fly to to be using a lot, but also I I designed a few few flies myself. Uh like my uh my cripple emerger fly. I use uh I designed that from pulling my hair out when I'm fishing sulfurs. When there's a sulfur hatch, they take eighty eighty percent or more of them, either right under the surface and they look like they're rising, or the cripples. Uh I I actually saw a trout come up for a sulfur, and before he closed his mouth, the fly flew away. You know, so the fly flew out of the fish's mouth, you know.
JasonWell, that happens all the time when I'm setting flies on dry flies, right? I get so excited and pull it out.
SPEAKER_01Maybe not all day long, but a cure for that, a cure for that, you're you're just uh setting the setting the hook too early, just saying, now I got you, and then and then pick it up. And that's a Gary then that's a Gary Borger tip. You know, now I got you, pick it up.
JasonNow I got you. Yep.
SPEAKER_01And then and then you pick the pick the line up and you'll now you have them. But uh my cripple emerger, it is actually uh I I was asked to submit a couple of flies for a book called America's Favorite Flies. And uh it's it's kind of an honor to be in that book. There's like 200 fly tires from around the country that have their flies in that book. And the fly I submitted was my sulfur crippled and merger, and it's basically a half half nymph and half dry fly. So that's the the the merger. Uh, you know, it's stuck in the shucks still, you know, so that that's gonna get more attention from the fish than uh than a catskill style that's gonna fly away right away.
JasonAll right. What style of nymph would you uh is one of your confidence flies or a fly that you are particularly fond of?
SPEAKER_01With nymphs, it I don't think it matters as much with nymphs what style it is as getting the nymph to the right level that the fish are feeding at. You know, if if it's flying, you know, if you put a nymph on and it's flying through the mid mid-level and the fish are all on the bottom, you're not gonna catch them. So you gotta get that fly down to the bottom. That's one reason why Euro nymphing is so so popular, because they don't use they're not using fly line, you know, it's straight monofilament where you're a nymphing, and that fly is getting down to the getting down to the bottom where the fish are. So it's more of a it's more of like I said, it's more of getting the fly to the the depth that the fish are feeding. But that being said, I like flies, nymphs that are in the style of a Higgins SOS. If you if you know what a Higgins SOS is, it is uh it just has hackle for the tail, and then it's like a thread body up to the thorax, has a silver rib, but has like a thread body up to the thorax, and then the thorax is is uh fatter. So you you would use uh some dubbing, some rabbit dubbing to make that look you know like the thorax, the fatter part of that uh nymph. It has a wing, the wing case on the Higgins SOS is actually. Red, which is an attractor, and then it has a couple legs on there. You use some crystal flash for the legs, but that style where it's a distinct uh silhouette of the natural, and it doesn't really matter the color combinations. You know, I like uh the original Higgins SOS with a red wing case. I like uh I call it a black and chartreuse. Uh has a chartreuse wing case. That one produces a lot, and but I I believe it's it's that silhouette that they're that they're seeing. You know how you turn over rocks and you see, you know, the mayflies are are very skinny through the abdomen, and then they get fat up there by the legs in the thorax area.
JasonYeah.
SPEAKER_01But my wet flies, uh one fly that I originated, and it is fantastic uh on it is fantastic on caddis hatches, is my uh GSS e merger. And the GSS stands for Garth Secret Stuff. And that would be the Gardside Secret Stuff in Olive. If you buy some, you you want to get the olive stuff. You don't want the peacock, although you could buy the peacock, I'm sure it'll it it works for different applications. But the original is uh just GSS, peacock, just put a dubbed body, and then you take a little bit more of it and you make a hackle out of it. You just take take a pinch of that GSS, put it on, uh give it a couple of wraps with it sticking out the back. You got some sticking off the front, pull the stuff from the front underneath, and tie it again so it's going back like a soft hackle, and then I break it off about the length uh to the bend of the hook. So, and it's a real a really, really good uh caddis uh pupa pattern. There's a couple of my videos uh I was using that. I I believe it they're even titled with the GSS in there, and you'll see them just like with the sulfur hatch, the caddis hatch, there's they're taking them right underneath the surface or struggling to get out of the to break through the surface. It it's been said that a caddis, or I would I would say that any kind of uh aquatic insect, mayfly stonefly, or caddis midge, it it's like equivalent to a man trying to dig his way through ten feet of snow. So it's a struggle.
JasonYeah, that is a struggle.
SPEAKER_01You know, it it's a struggle. So that's a very vulnerable, uh, very vulnerable stage. And you'll see, you know, you'll see the trout, you'll see the trout porpoising, and it looks like, you know, especially to the beginners, so they're feeding on the surface, they're feeding on the surface. But if you see uh like a head, a dorsal fin, and then a tail, that's they're they're eating right under the surface. And the GSS, I usually use it in combination with either a griffith's gnat, and I tie my griffith's gnats in size 14s mostly, and or with a you know, an elk hair caddis or a deer hair caddis, and I'll tie the GSS to the bend of the hook of the dry fly and only have it no no more than one foot of uh dropper line so that that GSS stays close to the surface. And uh it's really cool on the one particular video that I'm thinking of. I you know, I have so many videos I don't know the names of each one, but uh you got a lot, you have a lot, yeah. But uh you'll see you'll see them coming up, and you'll see them take that GSS, and it'll actually look like they're taking the dry fly, but when you set the hook, they're on that GSS. And uh, you know, Jack Gardseit was a was a pretty big influence in my tying, also, although he's passed away several years now. But uh there, I'm sure you have shows out out west, you know, the fly tying symposiums and whatever they want to call it. But Jack Gardseid tied at that all the time. And I spent at least 20 years standing in front of him and watching him tie flies for four or five hours. You know, I would go there, I would walk around, and I would go find Jack, and I would stand there and talk to him and watch him tie and watch him tie. You know, after after about 20 years of doing that, he said to me, You're never gonna buy anything off me, are you? I said, I'm just here for the information. Yeah, I said, Yeah, I will buy some uh something off you, but uh he's like, I I he said, I understand you you you're getting it. You know, you you all you have to do is watch and then you could do it.
JasonYou're building that confidence.
SPEAKER_01Right. That's uh, you know, so I would say to to anybody that's beginner and and stuff, go, you know, you don't have to go every single year like I did. Uh but go to those shows and watch those guys, all the tires, and uh, you know, ask them questions, ask them to tie something specific if you if you'd like. Although the shows are getting a lot of uh the tires at the shows, they're doing a lot of salt water and big fly stuff, maybe because it's it's more it's more visual to the people that are attending, you know, than trying to watch somebody tie a you know a size 16 Blueing Olive or something like that, or a size 20, you know.
JasonYeah, no, that's that's a good point. That that's something that I would enjoy doing. Jim, I want to ask you a question about something you wrote. It's on your YouTube channel here, and um, if you don't mind, I'm gonna read it. It says the sole purpose of my tying videos is to help the beginner tire to reach a higher level of confidence in their fly tying skills, while giving the experienced tire some new ideas for designing their own flies. So when I read that, what stuck out to me is the is the confidence, and I wonder if you can talk to you why that is so specifically singled out as like the sole purpose, that that confidence.
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh yeah, it it's easy, it's easy for a beginner to try to sit down and tie some flies and then you know take it to the water, and they they're not getting, they're not uh not producing, you know, it's so it's eat it's easy for for somebody to give up. Or even at the tying bench, they're not, you know, they don't have exactly the proper materials or uh stuff like that. They don't have the you know that they don't have the proper materials, they don't have the proper techniques for what they're trying to do. So in what I'm what I'm doing when I'm teaching through the videos, I try to explain as much as possible. And it would uh you know, the more you can understand it, the better you're going to uh be able to tie. Uh that being said, just a a quick story. There's a fly tire out there, and some of you guys might know him or have seen him at uh those shows. His name is Trad Little. And he started tying at shows when he was like 12 years old, and he was so he was so small that he had to sit on a box on the on the chair to to be able to tie at the show. But uh he I met him in Arkansas, and his dad said, Oh, I mean Dave McPhail was who he learned to tie from. So that was that was pretty cool that you know he's 12 years old tying at shows, and I and I helped to teach him through my videos. Yeah, you know, yeah. Uh at that at that particular show, they it's it's just all fly tires, there's like 200 flight tires at the show. But then there's a banquet at the end, uh, at the end of the show, and they give out awards and stuff, and Trad would always submit his flies for these competitions, I guess you would say. And uh the nice thing is, remembering that, you know, I take credit for teaching them, they had uh, there was 12 adult class flies, and there was two for you know under 18, and the two for under 18 went to a went to a kid that was like 17 years old. And Trad took 10 of the 12 adult ones. Wow. You know, I mean that was that was a moment of pride that that he you know that he did so well, you know.
JasonNo, that's great.
SPEAKER_01That that was really cool. So that you know, he he got his confidence built, you know, through watching, but you know, getting back to the confidence part, it also comes down to a combination of when you're fishing and flight time and going to the vice, when you're fishing, your your confidence level of in fishing is increased by your observation. Observing, like I I'm on my way to the stream, you know, I parked, I got I got set up, you know, okay. Now I'm walking towards to the river and stuff. Watch you you watch for all kinds of things, watch for birds. Are the birds feeding on bugs over the water? You know, that's going to tell you that there's a good hatch happening or there's no hatch happening. Uh you know, watch the water, you know, if there's a if there's a slow motion, or even if there's uh there's fish rising all around you and you can't figure out what you're uh what they're eating. So you you uh you observe. So take you know, stop casting. Take the time to look down, watch that water coming by you. You know, maybe it's possible I've used uh I don't carry one now, but I've used an aquarium net and you know, scoop the surface with an aquarium net, and you'll see what they're eating. Like I said earlier about watching videos and stuff, the the 3M the 3M videos were fantastic. And there was another one, Doug Doug Swisher, who is from out west also, and he he had one that I was watching, and he pointed out that this same thing when I'm saying, he said, go ahead and wait out there to where the fish are are rising, you know, and get your you know, put your net in the water and see what they're eating. You know, look at look at what they're eating, and then you know, you come out, they'll come back, those fish will come back, and they'll start start feeding again. But in that same sense, you see, look at that that insect, uh and look at you know, make a mental picture of what he looks like when he's right there under the surface or floating and stuff like that, and then take that knowledge that you just gave, that observation, and take that back to the to the vice. And when you're tying, don't be afraid to experiment. There's some purists out there that oh, it has to be a catskill style fly, and has to be the the exact materials that they say they talk about in the book and stuff like that. And for me, that's just limiting yourself. It you don't really need, like we all know, you know, you don't need a beaver skin because they have synthetic dubbing, you know. Uh I'm sure way back, you know, 200 years ago, 200, 300 years ago, you know, they used what material was on hand. So don't be afraid to use the material that's on hand. Technology has given us a lot of different materials, and the GSS uh material is one of those things. You know, it's uh polyester is all that GSS is. It's the same thing as angel hair for your listeners who who wouldn't uh know what GSS actually looks like. It's actually angel hair, what they sell as angel hair. But you know, say a hundred years ago, they were raiding their wife's, you know, taking stuff from their wife's uh sewing kit to make flies with one particular uh material that I use that is very very good and very very helpful is raffia or swiss straw, they call it. But I got it. I was with my wife at uh at a store, and real close to the checkout counter, there was a children's uh hula skirt, you know, Hawaiian hula skirt, and that it's all raffia, you know, it's it's it's that plastic stuff, raffia, and I bought that, and I have enough for my whole lifetime because it was like you know, 18 inches long, strips, and it, you know, there's a whole bunch of it. And that being said, you can also get those in adult sizes, you know, that they're 36 inches long, so you can buy one and share it with all your friends. But you take this you this raffia is you can split it, it's just a whole bunch of layers of uh really thin uh plastic for not knowing the exact material it is, but you can you could get that down to where you could see through it. And one of my flies that I like that I use a lot, like caddis pupa. Caddis pupas uh these work great on them because you could you can put those in a caddis pupa, the wings when they're when they're hatching, the wings are underneath. All the material is like underneath because of the way they go from the bottom of the river up to the surface, everything is draped underneath them. And I I use this raffia for the wing, and I put you know put one on each side there, and it's incredible. It's almost as good as the GSS having using that raffia. And I'm sure I have a video, several videos of me using that wing, that wing material. And just like another another material is a these these plastic bags you get at stores, if they're the right color, you know, like a tan one is a very, very good one. And I have my garbage bag flies. I'm sure you've seen them because you watched my videos, and I I have a garbage bag cat, as I call it, because it sounds worse. I call it the garbage bag instead of a grocery bag, but just a small strip of that as the wing, you know, laying over the top of the fly, and then some hackle on the on the front, and that looks so much like a caddis that has just got out, just got to the air, to the you know, to the surface, our our side of the water layer layer. The caddis hatches, you know, those wings are you know, those wings usually are what's holding it up out of the surface, and the body is actually in the film still. But that that's like a a fantastic match for uh for that wing. So like if you're on if you're on a flat water, you know, if you're on flat water where because it's not it's not a fast water fly, it'll sink real quick and fast water will get drowned. But stuff like that.
JasonThat's cool. Jim, I wanted uh change subjects just a little bit. I I know I don't know that there's a best way to start fly tying, if there's a method that's I think it's maybe what works for everybody individually, but I've I've I've thought about this a lot. I wanted to ask you when I started flying, when I started tying flies, I was just kind of tying a bunch of different flies. And I had a a fly tying kit, which you know, I I was tying a bunch of flies that I wasn't using, and I kind of lost interest in fly tying. And it wasn't until I got back to fly tying flies that I was actually gonna go fish that I started to kind of stay connected to it. So that's just my unique journey. But do you think that it's more valuable as a for a beginner to kind of focus on learning different techniques and just tying all different kinds of flies or or really tying um the flies for the fly itself versus the learning, if that makes sense? Is it more important to do the the learning of the the skill set, or is it um will that just happen through time? Because um, you know, there's just certain techniques that I haven't really picked up on because I don't really tie those types of flies because I don't fish them, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Right. Correct. Uh I I agree with you on the uh on the point of when you first get into fly tying and you know you got a pattern book and you want to tie everyone in there. Well, it's okay to do that, just you know, because fly tying itself is is a hobby in itself. But what what you really want to do is check uh a hatch chart for for the area that you're gonna fish and kind of concentrate on those particular flies, otherwise you're gonna end up like everybody, and you're not you're not unique in that. I have it, you know, I have flies that you know 35 years old that never saw the water because because they just aren't they aren't what is hatching near me, you know.
JasonOr materials. I've got materials that I just really don't use that much because right. I don't know. I mean they're not the kind of flies that I tie.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. So if if you if you go ahead and check the hatch charts, that's that that's a big thing there, I I would say. Check the hatch charts, and then that'll that will narrow your material list, you know, yeah, and narrow your you know your spending too, because you know, everything's out of control with the prices of of everything.
JasonBut uh yeah, it'll save you money as well as uh enable you to tie flies that are gonna actually work and you're gonna use and you're gonna be successful with how important is repetition in the type of flies we tie and then just like the number of ties that we do at the vice in like a certain sitting? Like, do you recommend uh for a beginner especially just kind of stick to one fly for the time that you have or split it up, or where does that repetition separate into um where you would be benefiting from switching more often?
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh well, like something like you you were saying just previously was uh you know, you want to learn the basics. So there's some flies, like uh when I teach, if I'm teaching somebody that never taught before, I'll do something like tie a woolly bugger or something because it's giving you the basics or a black ghost. I I always taught using a black ghost because you get different basics with that and you're on a bigger hook. So it it makes it easier to to get those basics. So when once you get the basics down, you you don't necessarily need to have you know, two dozen or three dozen uh hair uh olive caddis, uh deer hair caddis. You don't need that many olive deer hair caddis. You know, I mean there's a lot of times when I tie so few of certain of flies that I use myself that I don't have what I'm what I should.
JasonYeah. When do you decide to start over? When do you say um you know I now that you're an expert in tire you probably don't do very often but for a beginner when do you say uh that's good enough I'm gonna take it out and fish it and when do you cut off and start over? I mean do you think it's valuable to to do that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah I would say you know once once you're confident in the in the pattern you know I'm gonna use an elk hair caddis as as an example. You know when I first started tying I would try like I said to follow that book precisely and uh and then I got to well you know this is uh you know this is a little bit more complicated than I'm than I'm willing to invest say in L care cattle because you have you know you have a rib you have a hackle in through the body and then you have the deer hair on the front so basically what I did was I said well here's the pattern it has five different materials I'm gonna eliminate materials until they stop eating the fly and I basically you know I basically came down to my deer hair caddis is is really simple I got dubbing on the hook and I have deer hair so you know I I eliminated the hackle going through it and but at the same time it depends on the water that you're fishing too. If you're fishing heavier water then you want that hackle in the body because it's gonna help it to float more but you know I mean once you get the confidence and say okay I got that pattern down you know you you shouldn't have to take you know like I said you shouldn't have to tie a dozen of them before you could say I got that pattern down you know but it's always it's always good to to tie more you know because of you get the repetition of you know the uh muscle memory if you will w of what you're doing.
JasonYeah I like to you know I tie a good one and then I I'll go from there you know especially with a new fly that's where it really hits me is like okay I didn't like that you know I'm not happy with it I'll start over or you know start a step over and then um once I've got that one then I'm probably off to the races and I won't uh maybe take as long on the subsequent subsequent ones. Jim when I'm gonna start wrapping it up but I want to give you opportunity to kind of pass along maybe some of your your bigger tips for beginner tires. Like what are some of the if you could pass along one or two or even three things what's the biggest things you'd want to say to a beginner okay for a beginner okay number one is buy the best material that you can afford okay although you can get away with cheaper stuff but buy the best you can afford.
SPEAKER_01Once you become experienced at the at tying then you can use the the cheaper stuff and make them work. The second thing would be to watch your proportions that's that is very very important. You know what you get yourself a you know you get yourself a pattern book which everybody knew the fly time probably has a pattern book and look in it look at the in the beginning part of it it'll have a a nomenclature okay of a of a dry fly it'll say the tail and the tail will equal the length of the body and things like that. You know the hackle should be only one and a half times the gap one to one and a half times the gap and things like that and you'll see so much better flies and you'll you'll like it and uh so you know watch your proportions and use the best quality material that you can afford.
JasonYeah that's that's interesting uh because you would think that it would be the opposite like when you're starting out you usually you know you don't get the fanciest rod when you start out fly fishing you know start with a beginner and then as you get more experience you start to use the the nicer rods or nicer tools like maybe that's not the way to do that either. I don't know if that's the right way it just seems like that's what most people do. But I think it's interesting that you bring that point up and it's certainly something that I can relate to because like the first time that I tied a dry fly with like a really nice uh hackle I mean like a really nice one I was like oh okay this isn't as hard as I thought it was this is a lot right easier than it's been for the last year. I mean uh I so that makes a lot of sense I think that's important and it's it's counterintuitive I think to a lot of people that are starting anything new so I'm glad you brought that up you you mentioned hackle like hackle is is a is one of the things that you lose proportion especially for the beginner you know hackle is expensive and you don't want to you know it was the way that way for me too you don't want to throw away all of this stuff that you just paid all of this money for but exactly yeah yeah you know but watch your proportion like when I first started and stuff I would have basically soft hackle on a dry fly you know yeah yeah all right Jim I'm gonna ask my last question here but before I do how can people find out more about you check out your YouTube channel and then uh if there's anything coming up that you're excited about that you want to pass along uh so people know about yeah my YouTube channel is uh you could get it through my name or the Fly Man Jim and just search you know put put the YouTube search the Flyman Jim and you'll you'll get to my channel and when you do go to my channel you know go and and look at those I have like over a thousand videos so go into the playlists and uh and utilize that option on on there uh there's plenty of beginner ones and there's plenty of uh more advanced uh fly tying videos I'd uh like to say about my sponsors uh lively legs.com lively legs they're they're great guys they have a they have a uh store there but lively legs dot com uh up in Canada is frostyfly.com there are more great guys Boris is a great guy the same materials that frostyfly has is Bear Creek outfitters and that guy is in Pennsylvania he's the Americ he's the US distributor of those products Hemingwick type products uh check out uh real life fly fishing the world on Facebook just a bunch of you know everybody is into uh all different kinds of Facebook pages but real life R-E-E-L life fly fishing the world that is my good friend started that one and that's just uh a a really really good page it's not a lot of advertising or there's no advertising but it's just a lot of experienced fly fishermen that are posting on that one and uh oh that's that's probably about it I don't have anything I'm not gonna be appearing at any shows or anything like that. Also you can uh if you if you want to buy some flies off me you can go to etsy.com et s-y etsy dot com and you can put the fly man gym into that search or my name into that search and I sell flies through Etsy well we'll definitely link to those things in the show notes so people can find your YouTube channel and your flies and like I said I I was happy that I found them when I was starting fly tying for sure and um and maybe buy some flies from you as well. Jim last question you ready? Yep if you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice one tactical piece of advice one philosophical piece of advice what would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher okay uh observation is is the key observation builds the confidence that you're going to need yeah I can't I can't stress enough how much observation is uh is uh is helpful and uh get in touch with you know your surroundings and things like that but on the philosophical area the same thing is uh be out there in God's great creation and enjoy it uh you know you'll find peace out there on on the water whether you're on a lake stream whatever matter what species you're fishing for just enjoy yourself connect with uh nature and God's creation and be be good to others always love everybody it'll come back to you in tenfold I like it Jim thank you for sharing that thanks for being on the show and thank you very much for teaching me how to tie flies well you're very welcome I've enjoyed tying my own flies and um you've been a tremendous resource for me and I know so many other people so thanks for being on the show Jim it's been a real pleasure talking to you.
SPEAKER_01Okay I I enjoy it and uh thank you for your interest in my channel and everything and if you ever need anything I'm just a phone call away thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing podcast.
JasonYou can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthair.com If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There