The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 214: Spinner Fall Tactics on the Missouri River and Observation From the Center Seat with David Payne
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In this episode we WadeOutThere with David Payne, from Helena, Montana. David grew up in Lewistown, Montana, fishing the small towns local stream, Big Spring Creek at age 8, with no fly shops and mail order materials, on a homemade vise. That was in 1964 and he’s been fly fishing ever since.
In 1995, David started guiding on the Missouri River after moving to Helena in 1982, where he still guides today.
We discuss spinner fall tactics on the Missouri River, why you should fish all four seasons of any river you are trying to learn, and how observing others in the boat can make you a better guide and fly fisher.
Learn More:
DavidPayneOutdoors.com
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | A Dozen Techniques For Getting Your Flies Down While Nymphing
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | Tips for Fighting Big Fish From a Drift Boat
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In this episode, we wait out there with David Payne from Helena, Montana. David grew up in Lewistown, Montana, fishing the small town's local stream, Big Spring Creek, at age eight, with no fly shops and mail order materials on a homemade vice. That was in 1964, and he's been fly fishing ever since. In 1995, David started guiding on the Missouri River after moving to Helena in 1982, where he still guides today. We discuss spinnerfall tactics on the Missouri River, why you should fish all four seasons of any river you are trying to learn, and how observing others in the boat can make you a better guide and fly fisher. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shemchuk. At Wade Out There we believe fly fishing is special but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, David. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.
SPEAKER_01Pleasure, thanks.
SPEAKER_00I'm excited to talk to you. There's a lot of different ways that I could go with this. There's a lot of things I want to talk about. I want to get to the Missouri River and the importance of learning learning that river in every season of the year and some of the things you've picked up about instructing and tactics and all those things. But I think I just want to get started with your journey into fly fishing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, like a lot of people, I started uh uh my father was a fly fisherman and I grew up in Lewistown, Montana, which is a right smack dab in the middle of Montana. It's a small farming community. And uh my dad uh actually was a golfer, and he kind of dabbled in fly fishing, and and I basically sucked at golf, so I decided let's try the fishing thing. But I was probably eight years old, and we got a spring creek that uh it's called Big Spring Creek that flows right up uh south of Lewistown, flows through town. So that's where I got started, and my earliest uh memories of that, I'm guessing it was about age eight, and uh we went out, and um just so I can date myself, that'll be about um 1964. So that that'll get you what what the things were like in '64. Uh, first of all, there's no fly shops. And uh my dad did tie flies, and we would get our materials from Herders Corporation out of Minnesota with mail order, and he had a vice, it was just the uh most cockaminy looking thing you've ever seen, but he made it and you know he'd do a vice. But we would take that out to the stream, he would turn over rocks and get bugs off there, and then we go back to the scout. We had only international scout, and he would tie up these flies, and that's what we would use. And uh, so I my first couple attempts, I do uh manage it pretty, I remember it pretty well, was just you know, basically slinging the fly rod, and I was one that for whatever reason picked it up pretty quick. Uh, I could get the line to go out. It was an old bamboo rod, as I recall, and then that then I got an upgrade later, which fiberglass, which uh, you know, but I do remember throwing that out, and once I figured that casting out, like a lot of people, I was just casting like crazy and just throwing it all over the place, catching the dog, catching the brush. And he finally says, Okay, cowboy, let's tone it down a little bit. The idea here is to catch fish. But anyway, um, that's where it all started. I was about eight years old. It was all dry fly fishing back then. And Spring Creek, like a lot of Montana streams, is open year-round. And we didn't winter fish at all, it was strictly summertime dry fly fishing and uh casting either to rising fish or our likely spots. So that's that's how it all started.
SPEAKER_00Did you know that you were gonna have a career and a profession in the outdoors and and guiding, or when did that become obvious to you?
SPEAKER_01Oh, absolutely not. That wasn't even on the radar screen. I actually the the LLC that I have, it's David Payne Outdoors. Um, that was a remark by one of my football buddies. And the other thing you got to remember is back in the late 60s and 70s, it wasn't necessarily cool to be fishing. I mean, that's something you you didn't really admit to, uh, but you know, you did you do it. So I was dressed up all you know outdoorsy or whatever, and it's all the the the trend now, but then it was pretty much practical, and you're pretty much a geek if you were you know he kind of fishing stuff. So he he says, Who the hell are you, Dave Outdoors? And I always remember that. So that later on became um the name of my LLC, so David Payne Outdoors. So I can I can thank him for that.
SPEAKER_00So that's funny. Did you start guiding on the Missouri River? Is that where you began?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I started in uh um 1995. That's when I started guiding on the Missouri. And I moved to I actually moved to Helen in '82, so I had a number of years on there and I fished it. And uh that's my first memories of uh fishing on the Missouri. Um a little different back then, but uh, and then a friend of mine who was uh was a guide and outfitter, actually he just lives uh a couple streets over from me now, he's totally retired, and and he said, Do you want a guide? And I thought, well, sure, I'll do that. How do you how do you do that? And uh he says, just just follow me. So that's that's how that started, and that was in 1995.
SPEAKER_00Uh I want to talk more about the Missouri River, but I I'm I want to ask you with all the time that you've had on that river and all the people you've run into, I'd imagine you've had many instructors, mentors, people that you've learned from. How have those other anglers shaped the way that you see fly fishing kind of in the big picture and then maybe more at the tactical level?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I said, most of the mentors I had, uh I could break it into two groups. First, the first one was my father that was learning on a small stream on a spring creek. When it comes to the Missouri, first thing I learned at that was uh, first of all, you're casting a hell of a lot more line, and it was huge. He was absolutely, I was used to just fishing a very small stream, and the Missouri was big and flat. And I go, Where where do you cast? Where where do you find fish? Um, all that. And so I didn't have to use just to go out and well, that didn't work, you know, trial and error. I did have the benefit of uh fishing with uh um and the first guy I went with was this the outfit I can give you his name, Tim Pelaska. That's the who I I had gone with, and uh and he had fished extensively down on the Madison and Jefferson and stuff like that. He's a few years older than me. And and uh but he was kind of new to the Missouri as well. And then another gentleman who's who's since deceased was a guy named Gary Gary Fritz. And uh he was a big-time outfitter on the Missouri um back in the late 90s, uh right around the turn of 2000. And he was on the river a lot, and I learned a ton from him.
SPEAKER_00Is there something that stands out to you that that you learn from them that is like that you commonly pass along to other people? Something that you you learn from them and you pay it forward?
SPEAKER_01Well, the main thing is with the Missouri is fish where the fish are. Uh and and again, that's that's kind of the conundrum when you're just looking at it and it's flat. And how do you so how do you know where the fish are? Well, that's that's that's why you got me here. So the main thing is fish in the fishy spots, um which they do tend to move around seasonally, and that that uh we'll get into that later, but that's one of the things that are they're not necessarily where they are during the dead of the winter. You find them in different spots in the summer.
SPEAKER_00So those guys helped you kind of understand that right, right.
SPEAKER_01Is there's different spots, and also um to the the thing that I'm amazed with to this day is how many fish are in that in the Missouri River. It's incredible. Um to the point where you say, How can you not catch fish? But that's that's fishing. I mean, it it's uh uh with all the advancements we've made over the years, with new techniques, new this, new that, it still gets down to um getting your bait in front of the fish and getting them to eat it. And that's been the rule since uh bugs crawled out of the goo, you know.
SPEAKER_00You're trying to fool the fish and crawled out of the goo. I like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That hasn't changed.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, yeah, yeah. What uh what's been the most surprising thing to you over the years with respect to the Missouri River? Something that uh maybe other people don't notice that stands out to you that uh about the river itself and fishing the river.
SPEAKER_01Well, the the first thing that comes to mind is how resilient it is, because the pressure on that river has increased. Um, and and that's uh uh I I try to look at things in terms of neutrality. It says it's neither good or bad, it's kind of is what it is. There's a number of reasons why that's occurred. Um, but it it amazes me how resilient that river is. And it's I I have always believed as long as that is a viable resource, people are going to continue to fish about fish it, rave about it, enjoy it. And over the years, as much fishing pressure as it's got, the fish in some respects right now are the good old days of the Missouri. Everybody likes to say that, but it is an incredible fishery. Um and in spite of uh a lot of heavy use, it seems to be very resilient, and that's one thing that stands out to me.
SPEAKER_00You've had a lot of lessons learned and and all these experiences learning to fish the Missouri, and I want to talk more about that. I'd like to ask you first, I'm curious, what are some things that you commonly relearn? You know, when I'm out fishing, I I know that I shouldn't do this or I should do that or something, but I kind of forget, or I, you know, and then I'm like, oh yeah, that I remember that. Or um, or I'll discover something new. Is there anything that you've discovered recently or rediscovered maybe that stands out in your brain as a lesson learned?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just learned again this week, and that's cast of the damn fish. Um, you know, the main thing uh there's an acquaintance of mine who basically says, okay, you're gonna cast the fish, you're either gonna catch them or you're gonna spook them. And and this is with respect to dry fly fishing, um it doesn't really work very well to cast uh 10 to 15 feet above the fish and then want to drift into it, mainly because of the distances we're casting. We're usually making longer casts. I prefer to cast down to fish rather than up to them. Sometimes you don't have a choice, you've got to throw over the top of them. But I prefer to cast down to them. And when you're doing that, invariably you're gonna be crossing four or five different current speeds, unless you're lucky and you got a good lie right out there that's clean, meaning it's an even flow, and the fish is out there just screaming at you, catch me. But the idea with the Missouri is get that fly as close to the fish as you can. Um to the where the cast fly lands, floats, bang. Um, just that close. Um you can drift into them, and then and also, but you gotta be cognizant of your angles and all that, and you have more success that way. So I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's highly unlikely when you're crossing a lot of current seams, even if that fly looks like it's it's not dragging to you, it's gonna get micro-drift and micro-drag, and and it just defeats it.
SPEAKER_00So is the long cast a requirement of the real estate you have to cover on the water because it's such a big river, or is it more because the fish are spooky, it's clear water, or what what drives the requirement to cross all those seams? Because what you're saying makes a ton of sense. Um, you know, if I have a lot of line on the water, it's less it's it's more difficult to keep a natural drift, right? But I'm curious why that's so important that you have to put yourself in that spot.
SPEAKER_01Well, obviously, you want to you you'd like to get as close as possible. Uh I I went through the stage to where he says, yeah, I want to cast uh uh 50 feet, which by the way is a long ways. You hear a lot of casting, you know, and and I'm not gonna I'm gonna qualify that by saying, okay, the salt water is a whole different matter. But you talk, you hear stories about, yeah, that was a 60-foot cast or this, that is a long ways. I was actually out in my yard over the weekend trying different fly lines, and I actually measured out how far 60 feet was. And to be totally brutally honest, that's probably at the top end of my limit to be accurate, is 60 feet, and that is the length of my house. That is a long ways. And I kind of uh watched my fly line, which is a it's a real fly line that's got different colors going out, so I knew approximately where I'm at and when I'm out on the river and how far that is, and that still uh is a long ways, and uh so obviously you want to get as close as you can, but I think the main thing is uh yes, the fish are spooky, um, they're very susceptible to anything coming overhead because we've got eagles, ospreys, all kinds of things like that, all kinds of prey, predators, and they're very much aware of that. Any and anything flying overhead will put them down. And a lot of times they don't go down for no reason. You just float up to them and you watch it, especially one of our pods where there's you know 15 or 20 or 60 fish in a pod just going like this, and you sit there and look at them, and for no reason, they just flush. And you thought, well, I didn't do anything. Well, who knows what it was. Uh maybe there's a fire on the trading floor, like in Wall Street. I don't know. But uh, for whatever reason they went down. So after a while of spooking pod after pod after pod, you start to think, well, maybe I better back up a little bit, and then before you know it, yeah, and that's I think what perpetuates the idea how far you need to be. And obviously, if we could get real close to them, sometimes you can, um, but more than often, no, you're uh 30 feet, uh 25 to 30 feet, depending on where the fish is. Uh, if you can get that close, that's pretty darn good. And other times they'll come up right behind you. I mean, it you literally work a fish and work a fish, and oh, he's done. Pull up the anchor, move, and here he comes, you know. See ya, you know, here he comes back.
SPEAKER_00So all right, that makes sense to me. I want to keep talking about the Missouri River. I had a couple uh questions I was gonna ask you about how you like to fish it and such, but I want to put a pin in this pods, the pods thing that you brought up since we're talking about it. Can you talk a little bit about um you you joked earlier, that's why I'm here, right? Like I'm that's why that's why I'm in the boat with you. Where do you I mean is it are you looking for these pods because in between pods there's just not as many fish? You said there's a lot of fish in the river, so is it just kind of like these groups that you kind of like schools of fish that you kind of get to that that you're searching for?
SPEAKER_01Well, basically the pods happen and and generally that's with our trico emergence. Um, uh, because that's a spinnerfall. That's generally what has gets the fish potted up. And depending on who you talk to, uh some some will tell you, oh, the pods are gone, we don't have any bugs anymore in the Missouri. I don't think that's the case. I think what happens is year after year it just it's just different. And that's one conclusion I've come to over the years is every year is different. And uh we still have insects, but but primarily when they pod up, that's in response to a spinnerfall and they happen to be in big groups. Um they tend to be in certain spots on the river, and the more you're on the river, the more you recognize, yeah, there's going to be a pod here, there's gonna be a pod there. And when you have a client in the boat or a companion in the boat, you'll know when these pods are coming up, or you know specifically where to look.
SPEAKER_00Why trichos? And are there other bugs that'll make them pod up?
SPEAKER_01Like what is um that make them pot up? Yeah, mainly the the trichos because that that insect uh is the spinnerfall is what we're after. That that pretty much during mid-season, you I I laughed that you could you could set your watch to it, but you really could because some because I used to say, well, the the bugs are in the air by by eight, they're clouded up by a quarter to nine, uh, they're on the water water at 9.20. Um, and they says, Well, that sounds like a that's when the flight leaves, and they said, uh, sometimes these thrichos are more they're more punctual than Delta Airlines. And literally you could see them right about between 9.15 and 9.30, here they come, and they start and start feeding on these bugs. Um but basically when this you see clouds and clouds and clouds and columns, they actually column up. And you look into the sunlight and you see these columns, it looks like fog, that's all insects, and they die and fall to the water. And just by the nature of the Missouri's flow, where it's very slow and kind of back eddies and stuff like that, they'll have dead water, and those bugs will deposit there. And so, yeah, the fish go to where the food is.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And that's why they're there. And also, you have to remember that time, this this the trichos spinnerfall is probably uh late. It begins uh in uh I would say the second week in July and reaches its peak by the end of July, and then it kind of tapers off. We're still seeing them, but that it's really tapered off. But our water temperature at that point is in the 60s, so that means the fish have to eat. You know, they're they're a function of their metabolism is a function of their the water temperature. So they have to eat, so they tend to be a little bit more brazen and they're gonna get up where the food is, and that's why they they get in these large feeding pots.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like you're saying that it that's just the way that the bugs are organized, and so because of that, then it forces the fish to organize in that way as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's mainly the trichos, but I think uh any type of mayfly emergence or caddis, or when you get spent caddys on the water that collects bugs in an area, those fish will pot out. That's just the nature. They also do it on the big hole. It's it's not uh, or meant I put it this way, the big holes have has some pretty tough times right now, but when their fish numbers were up, that you'd see the same feeding pods on the big hole in certain areas. So it's not exclusive to the Missouri, but since that's what we're talking about, and and that's kind of what has made the Missouri famous is these incredible numbers of feeding pods. Uh and they're they're generally eating spent or dead flies.
SPEAKER_00What's one of your most memorable fish that you've caught on the river? Or tell me about a fish that you caught or maybe didn't catch that formed a special memory for you.
SPEAKER_01Um well, I remember the biggest one I caught. I remember that particularly I I um was Tax Day 1991. Uh because that that's all I remember. It was was uh April 15th. And a friend of mine that had just built a wooden drift boat. Um, we took it on its maiden voyage and left Craig, and uh, and I was throwing a woolly bugger on my Winston fly rod, which almost seems like sacrilege, but you know, that's what you did back then when you had you had one fly rod. So I had a full sink line on it. Brown woolly buggers fishing on riprap and um caught a a brown trout that I thought was a carp. Well, first I thought I was snagged, and then I thought it was a carp, and I was kind of cavalier about uh come on, let's just get it over with and yank it on it. And I saw it was a brown trout, and then you get nervous. I managed not I managed not to screw it up, but we end up rowing across the river and and pulling. The thing in, and I measured him on my arm, which my arm from the tip of my finger to the middle of my bicep, and I took it home and measured it, and that was 27 and a half inches. So that's about what that fish was, someplace between 24 and 27 inches long. And I got a picture on it, or my buddy took the picture, and I've got it made into a photograph, and it was on my mother's wall for years. So that's one fish I remember.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's great. Why'd you have to row across the river? What what was uh better about the other side?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's not a good idea to drop anchor and heavy water. Um that's the cotton was fairly heavy water, so yeah, he booked it the other side to drive and all and and plus by that time we knew it was a brown trout. So you wanted to he wanted to make sure we got a good photograph of it.
SPEAKER_00So Okay, okay. Oh, I get what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, I've had that too on the big hole, actually. I've had it w where I thought it was snagged, and yeah, just yanking on it like totally plenty of slack and stuff, just and then uh and I lost that fish, actually. We we did try and cross the river, and then we dropped anchor, and I I got too much line out and didn't work out for me. In hindsight, I think I would have taken it through the fast water. We kind of dropped anchor because there was like you know, kind of rapid-y type of water ahead, and I wasn't really sure what to do. In hindsight, I would definitely have just come gone on down through it.
SPEAKER_01But well, at least you got the idea or you had the opportunity to have hindsight. I mean, it's and sometimes those those are the best fish.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's always these opp these time these times in the boat where I catch a fish or a big fish or something. It's like, uh, what do I do? Like the fish is oh yeah, boat's going one way, the fish is going the other. Like, I don't have a lot of options here. I would imagine fishing heavy line helps a little bit. I what you know, you guys are probably pretty heavy rigged up there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we use uh well, probably OX for streamers, OX1X, and uh um yeah, and that's mainly because you're fishing big bugs in heavy water, and and uh our experience has been um they're not leader shy, especially brown trout in the fall. If they want to see something, they want to kill it, uh they'll eat it, you know. Uh a friend of mine, actually Tim, the guy that I brought up, I talked to him last night. We were talking about fishing mouse patterns of all things. And and uh a son of a client, um I remember, and I've he's he's since grown up, turned into a fine young man. Actually, he's a guide out here now. But when he was a kid, he was wanting to fish these mouse patterns, and I looked at him and said, Yeah, why not? What could go wrong? And uh these little brown trout were coming up and eating this mouse pattern. I said, Well, you gotta love a fish that'll eat something bigger in his head. Um and you know again, it was all little browns, and so and that's another little quirky thing is how you know how car carnivores the the browns are, and they'll yeah, it seem to be more so than rainbows, but you do catch big rainbows on streamers without question.
SPEAKER_00So if you could only fish the Missouri two days of the year, David, which two days would you fish it and how would you fish it? Like tomorrow and that's a good answer. Tomorrow and the next day, they could be yeah, and they could be back to personal wise. Um just your favorite day. I'm not asking for like the best day to fish, I'm saying for you, you know, do you like fishing like or in April time frame because of you know whenever you like to fish?
SPEAKER_01Now it's um I I that's a that's a hard question for me because you broke it down to two days. I two days only I think I would say I would say the spring, because um that was a learning deal for us, is uh you know, we talk about fishing a river year-round, and the the dead of winter is is um what gets you out of the dead of winter is usually cabin fever, but then we learned, and I want to say probably 20 years ago, uh fishing in the Missouri can be pretty darn good in in the dead of winter, uh, and when you find the fish. Um it's cold. There's no two ways about it. It is cold. Um, it's fishable. I'm not sure it's guideable, although now it it certainly is, people will come no no matter when that they come, but but it is cold. But I think the chance to get big fish um and uh probably actually I would instead rather than April, I would say uh March would probably be my time when I would go out.
SPEAKER_00And you'd go two days in March? Yeah.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00You're gonna spend both days in March. Okay. And how are you gonna fish? Are you fishing streamers?
SPEAKER_01Streamers and nymphs, yeah. Okay, and it's strictly for um you know catching big fish.
SPEAKER_00Big fish. Why do you say uh it's not guitable in the winter?
SPEAKER_01Because of the weather. Um it is cold. I mean, you're talking about 36 degree water generally, and uh that's the one thing uh with the advances made in outdoor gear. I mean, you can stay warm, but the reality is you're you know, you get out, it's a probably 11 o'clock to two o'clock deal, 11 o'clock three, and you know, obviously you stay out later if the fishing's good. But the reality, and we generally weight fish. I I weight fish in the wintertime rather than the boat. You can take the boat out because of the uh which I'll explain because I forget that not everybody lives out here. The Missouri doesn't ice over, very rarely ices over in the upper reaches, down low it does. So we remain ice free year-round, and except for the coldest of cold, um it it remains open. So yeah, you can wade fish in the dead of winter. Um, so yeah, we're not out there ice fishing. That's a whole that's a whole different deal. But uh anyway, it's uh so when you're standing in water in in March, we're probably yeah, it's um between 34 and 36 degrees. So you're waiting, I would say about an hour and a half, and then you pretty much, you know, that's what other reason we wait is because you got the outfit right there. You can get out and go warm up. So you go back, you know, go in. I get what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00So it you can fish it, but you you can't really provide a good ex a good enough experience for a client. Um because you're you gotta go, it's just too cold. Is that the case?
SPEAKER_01Well, you can because we we've you can put heaters in the boat, you can have a fire. I mean, it it did uh you know, I have guided people during the winter, and again, depending how hardy they are and your expectation level, if you have if you you solve the you crack the nut about staying warm, yeah, you can certainly do it. And uh and like uh the other thing I learned is it's one thing for me to go out and catch fish and and scratch my head says, geez, I wonder why more people don't do this, and then think that everybody wants to do that, and they don't, you know, because a lot of people don't like the nymph fish. Um and then once you find them, you find them, and then if you don't, you move on to another spot.
SPEAKER_00What's your tip for ice in the guts? What's your what have you come up with?
SPEAKER_01Uh warmer weather.
SPEAKER_00I was I thought you were gonna say that as I was asking the question. I was like, I bet he's gonna say I don't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, you do you can um I've tried Pam, the uh kitchen spray. I tried that. Uh I dip them, and that'll clear them for uh for three casts. And depending on how cold it is, yeah. Uh as we all know, water freezes at 32 degrees. Though you can have air temperature in the high 30s, low 40s, uh, and you're still gonna get some ice in it. Um I'm not a physicist to explain why that happens, but um, the older I get, my cutoff now is like 45 degrees. If it's colder than that, I'm not sure I'm that tough today.
SPEAKER_00But you can that's still pretty tough, David. That's I would don't sell yourself short. That's that's cold too.
SPEAKER_01It's cold. Um the other thing that brings the warmth to us in the wintertime is southwest winds that we call Chinook winds. And that's what brings our warm warm air in the in the wintertime. So when you have 45 degrees, usually it's windy. And the other thing, the other reality of the Missouri is you if you're gonna fish it uh any length of time, you have to learn how to deal with the wind because it is a it's a reality here. Um and so yeah, we all love eight weights.
SPEAKER_00Is that how you deal with the wind?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's one way to deal with it, is just get a thunder stick and go out with that. And uh, you know, you just learn how to cast in it. Any other tips for the wind? Um I think it's actually well, uh a wait forward line obviously helps you know with that, but um uh go with the wind either directly into the teeth of it uh or to your back, and that the most difficult is is going uh 90 degrees to it because that's when your line flops over. I think it's actually easy to throw right into the teeth of a wind. Stop your rod at 12 o'clock and you know, finish low. That's basically the main thing. Um I learned to cast the wind actually from Bob Jacqueline out of West Yellowstone. He put on a casting clinic uh many, many years ago. And um that's where I learned to do that. But once you figure out how to deal with the wind, and it's you know, it is frustrating, um but you you roll with it, you adapt to it. And uh I used to laugh at my friends, I says, you know, because they would say, Well, I'm only gonna go out and fish the Missouri when it's perfectly prime. I only want to fish dry flies, and I'm not gonna go in the wind blows. I said, Well, you just will play golf because that doesn't happen that doesn't we call those guys golfers because the wind is a fact of life on the Missouri. We're on the west slope or east slope of the Rockies, and that's just and we get heat convection winds in the summer, that hot air, cold air transfer thing going, and you just gotta learn to deal with it.
SPEAKER_00So all right. One more question before we get into fishing the the the river the whole year and the importance of that and what you learn from that. I am a slightly below average fly tire. If I came out there to fish with you, David, are there a couple patterns that I might be able to tie back at home before I showed up that are you know minimal materials, not too complicated, confidence type flies that you would recommend that you would if I showed up with them, you say, Yeah, we could fish these. And I understand that it's depends on time of year and stuff, but you know what I mean. There's a couple flies that you probably go to.
SPEAKER_01Well, I tell you the ones that have withstood the test of time. If I had to have three of them, it would be an Adams parachute, uh Pheasantail Nymph, and uh Woollybugger. Those are uh black woollybugger, black and grizzly woollybugger. I mean, those are my three, those are my three, but it's kind of funny because um I if I move my camera here, I could show you all these fly boxes. Well, here I got some right here. Yeah, I probably have 50 of these fly boxes full of flies. I haven't done an inventory of the flies I have, but it is uncanny how we end up using the same stuff.
SPEAKER_00It's like well, those are on my list of confidence flies as well. I'm not super handy at tying a parachute atoms, but I could do it when push comes to shove. But I do tie a lot of a lot of pheasant tails, and woolly buggers aren't too tired either.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're those are the three, and then the other thing, well, and and the Missouri in in the recent years, um, tailwater sow bug is an absolute killer pattern. And uh we call it fuzz on a hook. It it is the most nondescript looking thing, it doesn't have any weight to it. Yeah, but that's one thing. Uh, over the last couple years they've really keyed on um crustaceans and sow bugs and stuff like that. And that that is a real killer pattern. And also in the springtime, anything with um uh pink or orange and the on the nymph side, they uh they that makes a big difference for some reason.
SPEAKER_00Pink or orange, all right. Put a pink or orange collar on anything and get up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, turn anything into a hotbeat and you're good to go. Well, that's what a Frenchie, that's what a Frenchie is, is basically as a pheasant tail with a pink colour on it.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. All right, let's get into it. Let's talk about uh learning the river and the importance of fishing the whole year. Why is that important for not just fishing the Missouri, or maybe why is that important for fishing the Missouri first? And then how do you see that as important for all rivers, or how does that play out?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the main thing is is when you when you f let's say you first come to the Missouri, you're you're you're coming when most people do, is is July or June or July. And let's say you're lucky enough to have a week and you come a week in June, and uh depending on what type of an experience you have, you're either gonna say, you're either gonna sell everything and pack up and move out here, or you're gonna say, Well, the Missouri's oversold, I didn't catch a damn thing. Um, but it's I think you you begin to appreciate the river more when you see it go through its seasonal changes, and you're out there in the dead of winter, um and there's absolutely nothing going on. And you and you fish the fast water, and you know, there's no fish in here, but then you stumble on and find the slow back stuff, and you happen to be fishing subsurface, uh, and that's when you start picking fish up. And then it's fun, interesting to watch as the transitions through the years or through the months, how then they move they move out of that area, they move into the faster water, and then uh then as they start getting out of certain areas or they're not in this particular run this time of year, they're in another time of year. But you learn that through observation. Either learn it through observation or learn it through your friends. And I tell you, uh, if you see some of our riffles and stuff, uh which I think a riffle on any trout stream anywhere, that's probably a place where you'd fish. Not necessarily in the winter. The fast, the faster water, uh, I would never tell you they're not in there, but they're more likely gonna be in the slower, deeper stuff. And that's why I said uh it helps to fish it throughout the year to understand when they start moving into that, what perpetuates the fish to move into those runs. And then they're then I my theory is they're looking for they're looking for food, and that's where the food is, and they're they're gonna go where the food is. And that's why I say if you have the opportunity to watch that transformation over the months, um you uh light bulbs come on, you go, aha, that's where they are now, and then it makes it a little bit easier to predict or where to look for them.
SPEAKER_00So let's say I live close enough to drive to the Missouri and I want to do what you're saying. So if I don't live out there, but I want to see the river uh in that way, is there you you said you get five days in June. Are there like let's say I have four trips a year, what are the times that I could do that? Or it's a fair answer to just say, nah, you just gotta be on the water all the year, you know, you gotta figure it, you gotta figure out that.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, if you're if you happen to be out, uh, and again, I think there's um there's better times to be here, but I think it's viable any time of year. Like right now, uh August is not well, actually, we're not in Long August, it's early September. But for the most part, August is um a slow time, but that doesn't mean it's unfishable. You just have to look at different water because first of all, we got very hot weather. Um, yeah, we're we're still pretty hot out here. But you think about okay, where are the fish going to be when the water temperature's up? They're gonna be in riffles and stuff like that. So if you concentrate on riffles, and uh uh you're not gonna be finding fish anywhere or everywhere. Um, we're kind of between hatches right now in August, late August or early September. So you're not gonna see a lot of rising fish. You may see them here and there. So if you really want to go out and target fish, I like to fish for big fish myself. So I'll go to a riffles place I've known where they have, and I'll fish streamers. Uh, we have a lot of weed growth in the Missouri now, uh, and there's a lot of the nutrient level and the water has gone up in the recent years, and we get a lot of weed growth, similar to what happens on the bighorn. Um, that can be frustrating, but you can work around it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we have that on my home stream too. A lot of weed growth in the in the summer when it gets warm.
SPEAKER_01So I'll fish streamers, and that's what I did last week and went out to a and I specifically look for runs that were not too weedy, and yeah, you find some you find some decent fish that way.
SPEAKER_00I guess my mind is going to well, Jason, if you want to learn about fishing it all year long, probably show up for each season, you know, maybe the summer, fall, winter, spring. Is that would that be a good breath of experience?
SPEAKER_01You could do it. The the other reason why the winter is is uh not necessarily guidable, uh well, I shouldn't say it's not guidable, but planning gets to be a problem. Because uh we we have nasty weather out here on occasion, and uh and so I tell you when I'm not gonna be out there is you know when it's below zero, obviously. So um what I tell people that wanted to fish the Missouri if they happen to be out here skiing, and uh, you know, if you're down in Bozeman at Big Sky or someplace, and you uh you have an extra day, you can usually 48 hours in advance, we look at the weather channel, and if we see there's a worm trend or what like that, or we're gonna have warm weather, yeah, this weekend may be a possibility. And then um then you just go and if it's a bust, it's a bust. But uh uh that's that is an advantage of living here because if it turns out to be a bust, I get in my car and go home and just try it another day. Um but we do have a lot of open winter, a lot of open winter days, and the other interesting thing about the Missouri, at least from Helena, is it tends to be warmer up there for whatever reason, I don't know what it is. When we do have these certain worm patterns, um the canyon area where I fish in the winter sometimes is 10 to 15 degrees warmer than Helena.
SPEAKER_00So, you know.
SPEAKER_01I've been wrong sometimes, so yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_00How should people approach each season with an eye for discovery? So if I'm coming out and I'm trying to learn what I can learn about the Missouri in the context of fishing the whole year or fishing that one river for the whole season, you mentioned observation earlier. Are there certain things that you would point them to really pay attention to?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think um yeah, in the springtime, or especially in in the uh let's let's let's say like March, um we do have midge hatches in March, and I think the thing to observe is um look for insects on the water and just understand because again when hatching insects, even though we've got water temperatures of 35, 35, 36, 37 degrees, uh actually I would say 38, um uh they will eat. They will eat, they're not gonna be they're not eating like um marauders like they're in the summertime, because again, you remember that water temperature is down and their metabolism is not in high gear like it is in um July, but they still eat. And there is a window of time. So I think the observation part is yeah, see if you see any insect lights and and uh and understand what they are, the midges, or and that's but pretty much what you're gonna see in the winter time. Um and on those days, and and usually that's between one and three in the afternoon in the wintertime.
SPEAKER_00What have we not covered that you think is important about uh learning the Missouri River and fishing the whole year?
SPEAKER_01Um well we talk about just being observant, and um uh I think mainly um don't be afraid to try different things. Uh and that's like it says, well, I I wanna I wanna strictly fish dry fleets. You you can, you know, if you're a dry fly guy, you can do it in the winter time. I mean you have to you have to look. Um the fish are really, really spooky and you do have to pick your days very carefully. But I would just say be open to different methods. Uh you can throw streamers in the winter. Uh it's pretty much a subsurface thing in the winter. And I would say mainly is uh be willing to embrace embrace all all the the disciplines, uh you know, throwing uh subsurface, uh, streamers, nymphs, and dry flies, and appreciate them all. In times now that a lot of people don't care to nymph, you know. And I I said, well, it's fishing, you know. I'll do whatever it takes.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. You'll do whatever it takes. So I'm like that too. I don't have the time on the water that you have on the water, you know. But I just I've talked to so many people, and they all say, Oh, the the stages of a fly fisherman is first you want to catch a fish, then you want to catch a lot of fish, then you want to catch a big fish, then you want to catch a fish the way you want to catch it. And maybe I'm I'm just never meant to be a great fly fisher, you know, but I don't know that I'll ever get to that stage where like I I like just catching fish, you know. I I'm kind of like what you said, and I'm curious what's your thoughts on that theory? Because you just kind of said, I'll do what it takes, you know, and you've got tons of time, and so yeah, and it does make a difference.
SPEAKER_01Uh like I said, living here makes a difference because um I'll say that there's times when we've gone out with uh um just friends, a good friend of mine from Bozeman, and we just said, Okay, all we're doing today is is throwing small dry flies, and that's it. We're not gonna nip. Um, and I'll do that. And um and be and mainly because we have the opportunity to do it.
SPEAKER_00Uh I'll do that too.
SPEAKER_01I mean, yeah, and I think that's what it boils down to um is do you have the opportunity? Uh I'm you know, the bottom line is I've I've caught uh uh enough fish for five lifetimes, you know, for some, you know, or put it this way, if I don't catch if I don't catch another fish the rest of my life, I haven't gotten cheated because I've been very blessed to be able to fish as much as I have. So you do have a tend you tend to have a little bit different attitude about it. And the other thing is, okay, how many fish is enough? You know, um if you go out and uh, like I said, on our dry fly things, and we say we're just strictly gonna fish dry flies, and if they don't eat that, you know, screw them. So you catch five, that's a banner day, you know. Uh and if I catch a decent fish and I say, okay, your turn, I'll row.
SPEAKER_00It sounds like what I'm hearing you say is it's not that you have it's you're you're you're you you enjoy or you still enjoy picking a way to fish, or I want to catch fish on dries today, but it could be streamers the next day, or it could be a dry dropper setup, or it's not necessarily like David really prefers streamers and that's all he does, or you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, well, I it it's whatever the day offers you, and that's what you get. Enjoy it. Enjoy that, you know. If it and it and I'm not, I won't take the approach as well, all I can do today is nip, and because of whatever reason, and oh, therefore, I'm not gonna go. Um I and some of my friends are that way, and I respect that. They don't care to do it, uh, or they don't want to be out in the winter, and you know, whatever. But whatever it takes on that particular day, if I want to go fishing, just understand this is the method, this is what you have to do to fool them, because this is the way they're eating, and okay, then you do it. So I just like okay, well, I I uh put the bait on the line, I got it out and I fooled the fish, but this is how I had to do it. Um, so and that includes, like I said, this one, and sometimes it's streamer, sometimes it's nymphs, and uh if it was dry fly all the time, everybody'd do it. So everybody likes to fish dry.
SPEAKER_00So no, I like that perspective. I like that. That's a really good answer. It's one of the best I've heard, so thank you for that. I've got um some tactical questions. They're kind of I don't know, shotgun, but they're not meant to be like super long. You can talk as long as you want on them for sure. But I was sitting down thinking about how some some questions that come up that are always kind of sticking points, and I hear and I think about like what is that exactly? Or and everyone kind of has a different approach to these types of things. So um I've got a few of them here. We don't have to get through all of them, but I'll just ask what you think about these and we'll go from there. Does that sound good? Sure. What do you change first when you're not catching fish? Um so besides, yeah, so it could be fly, could be water type, could be weight, you know, or if you're nymphing or I generally change my approach.
SPEAKER_01Um uh because I, you know, and I think uh I had to think for a second as okay, you're talking about streamers, dry flies, but I actually you know just backtrack, and I think um yeah, you know, assuming that um uh it's a dry fly, well, I think could that that's uh let's go with that because that's probably one that most people can can identify with. Okay, mainly because of nymphing, there's a lot of things that can go wrong, you know. Is a general rule, my belief is the last thing is the fly. I think uh presentation, um, a number uh presentation, but more importantly, are you fishing where there's fish? And this is on the Missouri. Um, we do have uh a jillion fish per mile here, but they're not everywhere. So okay, are you fishing in a fishy in a fishy spot? And then the second thing is are you making some a decent presentation? I have a I tend to believe that uh a fish, if he's really on the munch, he'll eat damn near anything within reason uh if you present it right.
SPEAKER_00You know, I I think that is I think that's a great answer because it seems like people you could say like presentation, and well, I should always be presenting the fly as best as I can, right? But it's not really true. Like you get lazy, you make mistakes, you kind of like I've definitely been on the water and been like, all right, Jason, come on, dude. Like, really, like let's get militant about this. Let's just let's get perfectionist, kind of like let's make sure this presentation is as good as it can be, and and then I'll catch a fish. Like, okay. You know, like you just need to do better, you know.
SPEAKER_01Well, and the the other thing is uh uh, and again, we're dealing with a beast with a brain the size of a pea, and uh well, I and I think that the words always and never are are not are are pretty much useless in this sport because uh I've seen absolutely perfect casts, you know, that should absolutely just get nailed and the fish just doesn't do it. And I've seen some absolutely atrocious casts, and just shaking my head and rolling my eyes, and next thing you know, oh look, you know, I give up, you know. Yeah, so no, but more often, more often than not, the more things you do right, and uh getting in the habit of doing the same things all the time, getting a uh make quality cast, if uh if get if casting is where you need the help or need the work, uh you know, to make 10 your your goal is to make 10 quality casts out of 10 attempts, not two. Or the more the eight out of ten to get good quality casts, drag-free, on mark, you know, on the on the on on the target.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and which actually brings us into another area is um uh the other reality about dry fly fishing on the Missouri is when we talk about accuracy, as yes, you really have to be accurate, and that does take that is a an acquired skill. You have to work at it. Um and uh, you know, within um 30 yards is not accurate because I'll watch people cast and see where it lands, and I'll ask them, I says, within 10 feet, do you have any idea where your fly's landing? Well, no, it depends. Sometimes it's over here. I says, How are you gonna hit that target? Because the other thing with the Missouri is that everybody loves, well, you know, dry the fly fishing in general in general. Everybody loves to fish dry flies. When we're talking dry fly fishing on the Missouri, we're usually talking about casting to a spotted fish, a rising fish that is catchable, which means you need to get that fly on target. And I think that was the biggest learning curve to me, uh, going back to what we're talking about earlier, was developing my casting skills where I could get more accurate. And that's probably the biggest uh dividing point between um having a good experience on the Missouri uh uh casting derising fish, is your ability to handle a long line and get it on, get it on accurately. And still, you know, even to this day, it's still I was practicing again this weekend, so you know.
SPEAKER_00That's good. That leads me into another one of the questions I was gonna ask. Um, besides casting, because we talked a lot about that and accuracy, what other habits have you developed that you think have been most helpful for you? Like, for example, I have really tried to develop the habit of aiming small when I cast, like picking a specific spot versus just casting over by that rock someplace, like actually trying to uh that's one habit. Another might be like I I almost always will habitually put my line on the reel, like after I catch a fish, regardless of size, because I've been bitten where I think it's a small fish and it's a big fish, and and so now I just kind of I just do the same thing every time so I don't have to think about it. Are there habits that you have that you don't have to think about anymore that have that are useful?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think you hit the nail on the head when you started there, and that is cast with a purpose have some kind of thought and pr and process uh okay, how are you gonna approach this fish? Or you walk up to a run, how are you gonna approach it rather than just get in and start flailing away? It says, where do you think they are? And that gets it gets back to making every cast with a purpose, um, unless you're just cow practicing casting, which you know, sometimes some days you do it. But if you're not, if you're if you're trying to catch a fish, is have some something in mind where do you think they are, what is it going to take to get to them, and and and make cast to that purpose rather than just uh casting willy-nilly. Uh, we're blessed on the Missouri because there is so many fish that that can get you results, but not always, and sometimes they're in very specific spots, and you get one shot at them, and that ship sails if you miss, you know, and that applies to everybody.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yeah. Do you have any other habits or little little things that David does that are yeah, this is kind of something that I picked up that I just do all the time.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think um in nymphing, uh and again, nymphing is a is an interesting thing. Um I think one of the main reasons my theory is that uh a lot of otherwise accomplished anger don't like the nymph rather than they say, well, it's beneath me. I think they don't like to do it because they suck at it. Um there's a lot of things about nymphing that is very difficult, and it is especially on the Missouri, because we're talking long line nymphing, and nymphing and getting a fly down in the water column and sometimes um six feet. And uh yes, you can accomplish that by putting more weight on it, but again, when you get it down, you also want it to look bug-like, because you can solve any problem by putting you know a ton of weight on it, but it's gonna go down like that. You want it to go down. And so I think the main thing is is understanding how water flows, understand the physics of flows, that the water's flowing faster on the surface than it is down at the bottom, and you have some idea what your line is doing as it's dropping down. And it it is it is difficult to float a fly, to sink a fly and get a good drift on the when those fish are deep. Um there's times a year in nymphing when uh the fish are you can get to them better and they're not quite as deep, and you tend to have banner days. And the days when we have high flows uh and those fish are really down, you'll see this all the time when people go out and they're fishing the same pattern, same thing. Well, I was fishing there, I was fishing at six feet, and I didn't get a bite. And you have somebody two boats over, and they're just killing them. And no other, no other difference in ability. Uh you can literally take somebody off the street wearing golf shoes, put them in waders, stick them out on the boat, rig them up and get them. Um, but it is very critical that you it you get the fly down to the fish, and that is sometimes uh easier said than done.
SPEAKER_00So that's a repetitive kind of behavior that you have in fly fishing when you're nymphing these long line leaders, is really focusing and trying to get your fly down.
SPEAKER_01Get the fly down to the fish, yeah. And and uh trying to avoid drag and understanding when your fly is dragging, and that seems like a simple thing, but you'd be surprised how many people do not realize when their fly is dragging. And it's critical when you're trying to get that to the you know, when you're trying to sink it down deep is the avoid drag.
SPEAKER_00What's your biggest indicator that you see that other people don't see uh for drag?
SPEAKER_01Um, other than you're leaving awake, yeah. So that's the word.
SPEAKER_00Well, I've I'm trying to be discreet, I'm trying to be um respectful to like everyone out there. But yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's things like where where I'm out fishing with David and I cast, and I think that I have a drag-free drift, and you're looking at it, and you're usually no, what is it that I that is commonly missed? What do I miss?
SPEAKER_01Usually you can tell by the way you where you start your cast, and and this is one of the things that you uh one of the joys of being in that center seat for years after years, you can tell by you know where you're where you start your cast, even before that flag goes down, it says, okay, you're gonna if you're starting your cast there, that is going to drag. I mean, there's there's no, you know, if you're crossing this many current seams, and so a lot of times I can tell exactly by where they start. And if uh and a lot of times, when the flag goes in the water, the conversely he says, Oh man, that is money. You can just see the way it lands, the way that it's going into a spot. He says, That's money, it's gonna get a fish. And people say, How did you know that fish was there? He says, Well, I didn't, but your cast was impeccable, and your in your your cast and resulting drift was good enough. It says, Oh man, that it's gotta get and bang, there he is. And I didn't know that fish was there, I didn't see him, but you could see that the combination of things it takes to get it to get it going was there. And so the same thing is when a fly goes in the water, um, and it's like, all right, that's not gonna get it. It's gonna drag too soon. And and eventually all flies drag, but it's just do you get six feet, do you get two feet, do you get five inches? You know, what are you gonna depends on how you set it down? So that's probably you know how I tell is I can tell by where they're gonna land, and did you know, and how much slack they get in, did they make a straight line cast, did they do that it or did they do a mend uh right away? Um and that's you can tell it's coming. But um, you know, and the other thing is uh um mainly uh by how many current seams you cross, the more you cross, uh the more it's just very, very difficult to avoid drag doing that.
SPEAKER_00What is something that is underappreciated about fly selection? We did say fly selection is the last thing you're gonna change, but fly selection is still a thing. We have to choose which fly we're gonna put on the rod.
SPEAKER_01What do you think is underappreciated about how sometimes uh sometimes the most uh benign looking patterns can be absolute killers? And I I'll tell you that um I'll go back to that tail water cell. I mean, I have I I've got probably a hundred in my box, but I'm looking at that thing even after I know people are killing them with this fly. I look at that and they go, man, that that thing is there's nothing to it. And and don't don't overlook the power of simplicity, I guess, is what I would say. Sometimes the goofiest things I've heard of people getting hoppers and chopping their legs off uh and just throwing a like a stick out there that floats, and the fish will come up and nail it because there's something different about it, and it's different from what everybody else is throwing. I don't know, but it intrigued me about that is uh, and again, don't overthink things, and sometimes simple is is all it takes.
SPEAKER_00That's a good answer. I like that. I like that answer. We talked about observation uh a little bit so far. What do you think is the the part of observation or or something that you observe or look for now that that is um the least obvious and the most obvious?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think um I'm I'm amazed by uh even after as many times as I've been down the river, um I see things either I've forgotten about it, which That's what we talked about that earlier, yeah. Uh or I says, I'll be damned. I I don't remember that or seeing I I see yeah it seems like the older I get, the more I see things that amaze me. I said, I didn't know what is that why is that fish there? Why is he eating there? Why is why was he doing what he was doing? And yeah, if we catch a fish in a place I didn't think we would do it, catch it, uh you you you start to think, why is that fish sitting there? Why was he doing that? What are the conditions that make it that's and to me that's what makes this sport fascinating, is is that so and that's the and I'm much more observant now than when I started. And maybe that's that comes with age, I don't know, but um it it's still a fascinating river to me, and I see things I I like I said, either I forgot about or I haven't seen it before.
SPEAKER_00Is there anything specific that you like water temperature? Like that's something that I knew about kind of, but I really didn't observe that and pay attention to that. Is there something like that that you think that people should pay attention to that they don't in the observation world?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the water temp mainly is uh I think it is indicative of the fish being, you know, well, it's I I think you can control your expectation level on on water temperature. Um there's certain times when the water temp's in the 40s that um when the dinner bell comes on, and it both with insect activity and fish's metabolism, and it seems like it's the high 40s, and you see this a lot in the springtime because we'll go out in the dead of winter, and yeah, when it's uh because maximum density I'm getting back to you know, physics days, I think is like 32.9 degrees or something like that, or 33.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, when it's in that range, but really, really cold. Yes, you can catch fish on nymphs, but yeah, the and they say, well, they're always sluggish. Yeah, they're gonna be sluggish, but but it seems like there is a difference between 34 degrees and 38 degrees. 38 degrees, and again, this is my observation. I think they're gonna be a little bit more active. Now, between 38 and 48, yeah, um, and it seems like the for the real first big push when the fishing really turns on. My observation again is like between 45 and 50 degrees, and this is and gets you more into April. And so is it the water temperature or is it the availability of insects? And that's you know, um, I happen to think it's water temp because everything gets down to uh that fish, okay, as that temperature goes up, um their their uh desire to f to eat goes up.
SPEAKER_00What took you the longest to understand about entomology? Still the Latin names mean nothing to me. Well, just bugs, you know, like uh bug hatches, any any of that stuff.
SPEAKER_01I guess um how it's changed, uh, because the the river the Missouri's turned into a midge river. I don't want to say our mayflies are gone, but it seems to me the concentration of bugs have changed um in the last uh twenty years. Um uh and the other thing too is I think a lot of this is observation. And um I'm not one to say, you know, especially for someone who's fished the river since 1982, to say, well, the the best times were such and such, or the best times are were, you know, I think it's all spot and time. And I think about uh and I was having a conversation with a friend uh a couple weeks ago, and I said, Yeah, I remember when we used to do this, oh, we did that all the time. I said, Do you really think we did it all the time? Or do you remember specific times when that method or that condition was going on, and that sticks in your mind when in reality it was probably maybe two or three occurrences in a certain time, but you happen to remember that. And I think that's more the case to where the river is constantly changing, and you look at where we fit in in geological time, you know, and I don't want to get all metaphysical about it, but I think you have a tendency to look at things and say, well, it's always been like that. Well, in reality, it hasn't. But at that particular time, that was what was going on.
SPEAKER_00Or that's what's going on in your brain, in your memory. Like you remember it that way. That doesn't mean that it was persistent.
SPEAKER_01It just No, it wasn't persistent, and uh and I and I kept thinking, oh, we used to fish soft, well, like soft tackles. We used to fish those all the time. Oh, really? Did we? And luckily for me, I kept I had a journal, I kept a fishing journal for years, and I went back and looked at back and looked, and I said, I guess we didn't do that that much, you know, or that or that day out that day I wasn't fishing soft tackles, I was fishing something else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But you know, for what and I think more likely that that particular time, and mainly thinking about the summer of 88 when Yellowstone Park burned, because that's when uh I do remember swinging caddis out in riffles, and they and you could put two caddis flies on and the fish fighting over them. And it's like, well, we don't do that much anymore. Well, okay, they were doing it then, but the other reality is too our weed growth hasn't has increased, um, and it makes that uh swinging anything uh problematic because of the weeds.
SPEAKER_00So that's a really good point, and that's a good, I think, um plug or a good kind of uh pro uh positive of keeping a journal is it provides you some truth data, like not not just so you can go back and see, but it kind of is a offset or a a way to to deal with the way that our memories play tricks on us, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, and if um you know some people are more anal than others, but I did keep a journal and I kept it for years, and it's interesting to go back and look at it, and water temperature and stuff like that, and how things are the same, a lot of things are the same, but it's what we were using back then and what worked that day, and then uh look at that and check that against your long-held beliefs and your memories.
SPEAKER_00And uh why did you stop with the journal?
SPEAKER_01I ran out of pages on the one like anything else. I don't know, no one gave me another one for Christmas, so I just a gift from a client. Okay, and it was a beautiful little and that one, yeah. I I ran out of pages, and and you know, it's like I um I have spotty stuff, but I haven't I haven't um uh uh in a disciplined nature journal for probably the last five years. I've done it spottily, but I have other ones that go back to like I said, 1980s.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. I want to change directions a little bit, David, and talk to instruction and observation of people. And we've talked a lot about observation on the water and fish and rivers, but you said earlier that you know you've been in the center seat for years and years. Um when and why did that observing of people become important to you as an uh instructor and as a fisherman?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the main reason is is I kind of want to know is do people want to learn? And that may sound like kind of a silly question, but a lot of them don't. I mean, um and I I and I don't know that it's a it's not wanting to learn, but they have they have different objectives about fishing now. Um in our especially you see this with the few of us have been guiding for a number of years. It used to be where people that that's what they wanted to do. They wanted to become better anglers. Uh they wanted to learn, and that was the the belief that we have as guides is okay, I you know what you get when you fish with me is you learn to fish the way I fish. And here's what you need to develop, or this is this is how I do it. Um nowadays uh there's a lot of folks they want to have an experience, and that's paramount, is the day they happen to be out, they want to catch fish, they want to do that, they don't care how they do it, and they're not particularly interested in whether or not they become a better angler. And that's not a put down or anything else, that's just that's the way they're wired, that's what they um the uh the guiding is expensive proposition and they want to get their money's worth and and they may not pursue this as a sport, but they want to have fun that day. So it's kind of a change um to where they're not really interested in learning. So the first thing I kind of have to pick up on is is this person um in that camp where they all they just want to have fun that day and move on, or do they really want to learn? Because if they if they just strictly spot in time, I'm not gonna browbeat them about well, I don't browbeat anybody, actually, I'm pretty pretty nice, the exception of my wife.
SPEAKER_00No, you seem very nice. You seem very nice. I think I browbeat her. No browbeating today so far. I don't think I've been browbeating.
SPEAKER_01But again, it's like what what is their goal? Is do they want to do this? And if not, okay, we'll fast forward to here, I'll tell you this is how we do this. And you put them in a position with the skills they have to uh to do the best they can. And if it's a situation where, yeah, show me what you can, I say, well, how long do you have? If you want, you know, we can work with things like that and break the day up to where you work on fundamentals, and uh uh and that and I'm also included in that because uh I said I've got some casting issues that have come up the last couple, you know, or you know, and I said, I gotta fix this. So it it never you're always tweaking stuff, but that's what I mean by being observant is seeing where they're at and understanding what their goal is.
SPEAKER_00Do you find that that observation is better at uh assessing that desire to learn than just asking them and talking to them? Or is that like somebody says, Yeah, I want to learn, and then you watch what they do and they're not listening or they're not really trying, and then you you make another assessment?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that's kind of because if you uh you people are for the most part are gonna tell you what what you want to hear, and that's that's not again not not uh being negative, but that's just being social. Uh because they're not gonna say, no, uh, Mr. Guy, I don't want to learn a damn thing. I just want to come out. You know, they're not gonna tell you that. So you kind of take it with a grain of salt and and understand, okay, where are they with that? And and try to be, and again, understanding they are the guests, they're guests, they're supposed to have this is supposed to be a good time, supposed to be rewarding. What's the best way you can do that?
SPEAKER_00How about you? What have you learned from watching people that has helped your game that through these observations?
SPEAKER_01So is there anything that you've Oh, it's just uh never ending. I think that's the biggest thing that helped me become a better angler is watching other people fish, without question.
SPEAKER_00Uh what do you see that what do you what do you look for, you know, besides like, oh, I see how he's casting, or is there other things that you notice through observation?
SPEAKER_01Well, just where we are in the water, where we're at, um uh where the fish are, uh, because you know, and you look at I've always wondered if there's a fish here. Let's go over and find out, and you get someone to make a perfect cast, and you go, huh, I'll know I'll remember that. So when I come down, and I think, you know, without question, sitting in the center seat rowing people around has made me a better fisherman. I mean, it's just and again, it's it's where we fish, it's how the cast is made, when casting, when it when it doesn't work, when any possible thing that can go wrong goes wrong, and you make a note of that. Um, and again, the the the remark I made where an atrocious cat catches fish. I mean, let's keep things in perspective. Look who your business partner is, it's a fish. They're a wild beast that basically what a guide can tell you, and matter of fact, all they can tell you with any certainty is what happened the day before.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01When we go out, wow, this is what I think is gonna happen today, but they don't, we don't know. We're just saying on the base of experience, but we can tell you what happened yesterday, you know, again to the point where, hey, don't tell me you should have been here yesterday. Well, you know, but it can tell you that. But again, it's um it's amazing what you can learn by just watching. And I think that's probably the biggest blessing I've got for guiding all these years is just being able to watch people, and it is it has made me a much better angler, and uh without question.
SPEAKER_00David. I think that's really important, and I think that's something that uh I will I think that's something that I will take away and pay more attention to. Um I do like watching people fish, like watching my brother fish, but I I think I could pay attention a little bit more and uh and learn more from watching other people as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's a double-edged sword, double-edged sword too, because then you're out there and you just God, you're killing me. You're absolutely killing me. Don't do that, you know. Or I'll give you a dollar if you fish in front of the boat, you know. But anyway, it's uh it's all good.
SPEAKER_00I want to start wrapping it up, David. Before I do, before I ask him the last question, how can people find out more about you? You mentioned your website. Is there anything else that you're excited about or you want people to know about before we uh can read?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm still doing it, uh mainly, and uh no, it's uh my website there. Uh I I'm always available to talk to people. I recognize that uh people work hard for the money, and and you know, it's uh it's an expensive service. But uh fly fishing it's been my life, it's this it's a passion with me. And uh I love to talk about it, I love to share opinions and uh or just discussion and and uh based on what I see. And I I'm also interested how other people do it. Uh, when I go fishing with my young guide friends, I basically says, Hey, you tell me you you show me how you do it, and I learn stuff every time I go out with them.
SPEAKER_00So what's the name of the website again so people know? Uh David Payne Outdoors.com. David Payne Outdoors and Payne is P-A-Y-N-E. So David Payne Outdoors. We'll link to that in the show notes so people can get a hold of you via email, probably is the best way on there that they can reach you and ask questions or maybe schedule a trip or something like that. All right, David. Last question, are you ready? Yeah. If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice one more tactical and one more philosophical. What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?
SPEAKER_01Be patient. Number one.
SPEAKER_00Is uh is that tactical or philosophical? That could be both. It's a little bit of both.
SPEAKER_01Is uh understand, be patient, and uh don't, you know, that's uh persistence mainly is what I would do. Is this is uh well and and yeah, knowing what I know now, says this is gonna be a lifetime pursuit, so treat it with respect.
SPEAKER_00Okay. We'll call patience and persistence tactical, and we'll call that last one philosophical because I think that's really special. So thanks for sharing that, man. You bet. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for sharing all the knowledge that you did share today. It was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Had a great time talking to you. I'm excited to see you out there fishing someday on the Missouri. Hopefully, I'll get out there and we'll cross paths. So thanks for being on the show, David.
SPEAKER_01My pleasure. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitoutthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.