The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 225: Dave Hurley Part 1. Surf Fishing in San Diego
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In this episode we WadeOutThere for Part One of our conversation with Dave Hurley, from Detroit Michigan. As a child Dave fished the local golf courses and waterways in San Diego, where he was born and raised, often getting chased away from his favorites spots.
He was introduced to fly fishing on a trip to Utah, and on the banks of the Green River he found himself both humbled and determined. His commitment to fly fishing was cemented when he finally caught his first fish with a fly rod, on a small mountain stream. He channeled his new love of fly fishing into dissecting the waters and fish of San Diego’s beaches, until an opportunity arose for him and his wife to move to Detroit.
Michigan became a new home for his love of music and fly fishing. Soon he was exploring, and eventually guiding the fresh water oceans in the area from his own flats skiff.
In Part One of our discussion, Dave shares tactics for surf fishing in San Diego and talks about how the move to Detroit had set him up for discovering his niche in the fly fishing world.
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In this episode, we wait out there for part one of our conversation with Dave Hurley from Detroit, Michigan. As a child, Dave fished the local golf courses and waterways in San Diego, where he was born and raised, often getting chased away from his favorite spots. He was introduced to fly fishing on a trip to Utah, and on the banks of the Green River, he found himself both humbled and determined. His commitment to fly fishing was cemented when he finally caught his first fish with a fly rod on a small mountain stream. He channeled his new love of fly fishing into dissecting the waters and fish of San Diego's beaches until an opportunity arose for him and his wife to move to Detroit. Michigan became a new home for his love of music and fly fishing. Soon he was exploring and eventually guiding the freshwater oceans in the area from his own flats skiff. In part one of our discussion, Dave shares tactics for surf fishing in San Diego and talks about how the move to Detroit had set him up for discovering his own niche in the fly fishing world. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There.
SPEAKER_00Nice to meet you, Jason. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01Of course. You are out in Michigan and we were talking before the show. I spent a little time out in Detroit. Haven't fished out there. But I think Michigan is a beautiful state, man. And I always think of Michigan like the upper peninsula and trout fishing and things like that, but there's so much great water uh around you and the lakes and things, so I'm pumped to talk to somebody who's out there fishing those areas.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're blessed here, man. We have uh no shortage of water. Incredible. Uh cold and warm water species. It's uh Michigan has it all. It's uh it's a great place to be.
SPEAKER_01The thing that's fascinating about it to me is I have never been saltwater fly fishing. I don't know if you have. Have you ever been to like a tropical place, saltwater fly fishing?
SPEAKER_00I've been fortunate. Yeah, fortunate enough to to have been out tropical and uh where I was raised, born and raised, uh did a lot of saltwater fly fishing in the Pacific Ocean.
SPEAKER_01Where were you born and raised?
SPEAKER_00Uh San Diego, California.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, nice. Uh southern So the the thing that's cool to me about where you're at is I feel like it's a I mean, Detroit is far from San Diego in uh weather, I guess. But it seems like there's a lot of similarities in the kind of fishing uh that there is with the f the flats fishing and and things like that. I don't know if if that's something that is appealing to you about the area. Did you kind of fall into that or how did you I guess how'd you get started in this fly fishing journey and end up on the flats in in Michigan?
SPEAKER_00Oh man, it's uh it's uh it's a little bit of a story, but yeah, I mean to take it back, um, you know, uh I'm a transplant and and it was a pretty major move out here. And uh part of that excitement was the inland oceans, the idea of a freshwater ocean. Um and uh uh the origin of my fly fishing in San Diego uh actually uh I mean it started uh on a trip to Utah, which is where you're based.
SPEAKER_01I'm based in Utah. As of three years ago, actually almost three and a half years, yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right. So uh I'm sure you're familiar with the Provo River. Yes, sir. And the Green River. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um I just got a driftboat so I can go out on the green all the time. But now it's starting to beautiful river. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, such a amazing place. Uh it was my I think it was my second time to to Utah. I I I had a girlfriend uh and her family had property in Salina, uh, Utah. Her dad was uh as a rancher, and uh she lived in San Diego, and so we did a uh a trip out there and uh I saw all the you know all the parks and just incredible beauty. And uh I grew up fishing, grew up uh my whole life uh ever since I was a kid, just a bass angler, you know, and did a ton of fishing, both in the saltwater and the surf and and in uh our little inland lakes in San Diego. All down in San Diego? Yeah, that I was born and raised there. Um, and uh and until 2014, that's that was my home base, never left.
SPEAKER_01Why did why does the fishing what what made a little boy in San Diego go out fishing all the time?
SPEAKER_00You know, it my dad was into fishing, so he took me fishing when I was a kid, and uh, and I'm an only child, but my cousin, who's a year older than me, we were like brothers, and uh we both almost independently of each other um found fishing really young. Um and we would just, you know, we'd stay up um and watch the fishing shows, you know, like Bill Dance and Roland Martin. And uh and our my aunt would take us out to a lake and just like let us run wild. And you know, we were just trying to figure it out as little kids. And even before that, man, I I remember I grew up um in this area that had a kind of a golf course. So we lived in a kind of an apartment. We weren't I didn't grow up rich, we were we were very much lower middle class, but uh we there's a golf course nearby us, and we uh when I was really young, I remember I had uh my earliest memories of fishing is you know, uh basically a pole without a reel and uh and line that I had found somewhere and uh and basically a spoon that I would walk around these little golf course cookie cutter ponds with my arms stretched out, and uh we'd hook you know three, four-pound bass out of these little ponds that nobody fished, and then you know, inevitably have to run from like security from the golf course. So I mean, I just I've been fishing my whole life, um, and uh got really into it. A lot of Southern California fishing for me is uh is me being on private property and having to like break the law in some you know uh respect. Uh it's just uh that was all the best fishing was on private property. And uh to this day, a lot of my buddies that I, you know, um really fishy friends of mine that live in San Diego, California, you know, it just seems to be more and more a thing where where spots just get um they designate them as uh private property, or you know, they just all of a sudden will put uh pass an ordinance where you can't fish that water anymore. And it just seems to be a a thing out in Southern California where I'm where I'm based out of. Even like parts of the beach I used to fish in the Pacific Ocean, they'd just all of a sudden one year they'd be like, Okay, you can't fish for anything but besides pelagic species in like the coast of you know La Jolla. And uh and it was just kind of all this random stuff um would come up. And that makes me sad, man, because it is pretty sad.
SPEAKER_01I want like little kids to be able, I want to be like, go fishing, go outside, go do this uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00But you know, we I want less barriers. We had fun. We we would dress in camouflage and go fish these golf courses at night, and it was uh it was a blast. Um, we catch tons of big fish. Uh and and it was just like uh both uh you know uh a suspense thriller um and like a you know a fish just a normal adding outing for us running from uh security and jumping fences and you know occasionally getting pot. But it was a good time. Uh so that's way off track. Um yeah, man, I I grew up uh fishing and uh and all of a sudden I was going back to Utah and I found myself, this is like uh you know early early 20s, just looking into these rivers in Utah and realizing, oh, it's a it's like they do fly fishing there. And I had never fly fished in my life. I didn't know what it was, but um I considered myself a pretty decent angler and uh found like a cheap um fly rod. And in my head, I was gonna buy the fly rod and go there without knowing anything and just master it like an hour on the river and uh got my ass handed to me.
SPEAKER_01Why did you have that uh preconceived idea?
SPEAKER_00Just because I you know, it just seemed like something that um that I could do. Like I whatever I knew about it, you know, again, my my ignorant brain at the time. I I thought maybe okay, there's you get the fly out there, it floats across the water, and a fish eats it. You know, I know how to set a hook. Um I just I pictured it as much easier than it actually was. And uh and that particular trip was was great because it it culminated in this big long crescendo of me like getting broken down, um, like really doubling down, like I really want to learn this, but you know, standing on the Green River with like all these guys and like you know, uh waiters, the vest, the whole outfit, uh catching fish left and right all around me, and me whipping flies off and not knowing a thing, like literally in the mid in the mecca of fly fishing and just trying to hack it out um and just failing miserably. And uh and along the way, that was uh I think it was probably a three-week trip. We did like a camping thing, and we we brought kayaks, we we did a bunch of uh parks and stuff, and I fished a lot, high mountain streams and brought my fly rod everywhere with me. And uh towards the end of that trip, I had gotten just enough knowledge to know uh a little bit about how to get the fly out and and what needed to be done. And I remember that first fish. Um, you know, I I was fishing a high mountain little pond and there was a a caddis hatch, and these little browns were eating on top, and I caught one and that was it. I was completely beside myself.
SPEAKER_01That was fly fishing, is it after that?
SPEAKER_00It it's it, yeah, absolutely. It was 100%. I'm all in on whatever this is. I need to, I need to I need to do it in my life, I need to figure it out, and I need to know like what's the like how do you fly fish in in San Diego in my home water? And uh so I I came home just completely uh a changed person. I mean, and it was, you know, like most people, I think get that feeling like you're a kid again, you know, it's something that's just full of wonder. Um, and at that point, you know, as a young adult, and uh uh that feeling was such a just a warm welcome sort of thing. And I I wanted nothing more than to just uh be completely consumed by it.
SPEAKER_01Was it fly fishing or I mean a lot of people fall in love with trout and Rocky Mountains, and like you said, the green river in Mecca. So you took it away as just fly fishing, and then I'm interested in the move to the Midwest and um how you got into like different species, because I know we were talking before the show, but freshwater drum is a species that you are uh intimately familiar with, I guess.
SPEAKER_00I don't know if intimate is the right word, but familiar or intimate's a perfect word for it, great words.
SPEAKER_01You know, and I know you're a musician too, so I'm curious how that move from California to the Midwest and the and all these other species and stuff, because now you're like all different kinds of species and you're in the Great Lakes area, and it just seems like a for me a big leap, but maybe it was more gradual.
SPEAKER_00It was big, uh, but you know, it was uh it was a perfect time. Um so let's see. Uh but yeah, I I basically got into the fly fishing and learned that there was a small niche of group of people doing kind of a niche fly fishing thing, which was fishing the Pacifics, the coastline of the Pacific Ocean um in Southern California. Uh specifically for uh the species that live like right in the waves, like in the surf. Um and and uh species like uh Corbina, uh croak, yellowfin croaker, spot fin croaker, and barred shore perch with occasional mix in uh halibut, um halibut?
SPEAKER_01I was not expecting you to say that. Wow.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Uh shovel nose sharks, uh leopard sharks, uh various other species, but those were like the primary ones. The the the Corbina was kind of the prized uh fish. And you could sight fish it in the surf on a calm day. Uh certain beaches were better than others, but um that's a quite a you know uh a far cry from from fishing a high mountain river or stream or or you know, nor fly fishing as most people know it, uh standing in front of an ocean. Um you've you know you're fishing heavy grain sinking line, you have a basket on your hip to catch your line so it doesn't get sloshed around in the waves. Um uh you have to make long casts, um, and there's a current going forward and backward and sideways at any one given time. So you're dealing with all these elements, and it was quite the the crash course uh for me to cut my teeth.
SPEAKER_01Um how did you cut your teeth? How did you do that? What did you do?
SPEAKER_00Did you go to a fly shop or just like absolutely yeah? Uh Peter Piconey owned a fly shop. This guy is kind of my my first sort of mentor. Uh he had a fly shop in San Diego called SoCal Fly Fishing.
SPEAKER_01It's so cool how I it's all over. I mean, it's just all over if you look for it. If you if you really just like, well, I want to fly fish and I'm in Texas or San Diego. I mean, yeah, it's just so much more than trout fishing, although I love to catch trout, but it's just I love hearing this kind of thing. It's so cool.
SPEAKER_00Man, yeah, no, it's it was it was really fun. Uh, that was a really cool time. Um, and very frustrating. Like, I I by no means in the beginning of all this, I was terrible. Um, and I saw the potential. Like I saw people like Peter and uh some of the guys that worked in the shop. I saw how um eventually, if I had worked at this, I could get to this level of like being able to throw you know this heavy line, you know, and and be able to fish effectively and and catch fish. Um, but at the same time, um uh I was also uh fully open to everything else. I I was going up to these ponds um that were about an hour and a half's drive that were just tiny. I mean, uh just living in Michigan, it's so hard to imagine um these little tiny ponds that they stocked weekly with these rainbows. Um, and that was it. You know, you'd go out there and and these stupid fish would be in this little pond, and if you can get a prince niff like 10 feet out and just let it sit there, they'll eat, you know, and and so we I say we, um my best friend and I, who um another long story, but I had to work him into fly fishing because of course he needed to be my you know my partner in this journey.
SPEAKER_01If you got your best friend, here's the thing if if you want to give him this gift, it's so you love it so much. I was so yeah, you gotta you gotta have this feeling that I have, right?
SPEAKER_00And I did not sell it well in the beginning. He he had no interest whatsoever in learning. Uh he just I mean, he looked at it like some people do. Uh, you know, it's just this like stupid elitist thing, like uh, you know, and it costs money. Like he doesn't want to spend all this. It's like only people that have money fly fish. Why would I want to get into that? And I'm perfectly fine. I I catch fish all the time, you know, with my regular gear. Um, but interestingly enough, uh he I gave him a rod, and uh I'll make this one short, but he ended up going up to that pond and and felt guilty because I had given him the rod, and uh and just so so happened there was uh a father and a daughter that were fly fishing this pond. And uh and the daughter noticed that he had a rod sitting there and kind of gave him a little shit and and and and guilted him into picking it up, and he caught a fish on the fly rod, and uh he went on to have a podcast of his own about fly fishing. So that says says it all right there. Um what's his podcast? Uh beer, fly fishing, and food, uh, which I think it's uh they don't no longer do the pie fit uh podcast, but uh it's a great one. Check it out. Yeah. Um but yeah, uh so he he's a he's a great dude. We we we we get after it pretty hard. Um he's still in San Diego, he comes down here for a couple weeks every uh or a week every every year, and we we fish.
SPEAKER_01I was excited to talk to you about the flats in Michigan, but I think I have to put a pin in this San Diego, and I want to I want to learn about how to do this. I mean, I think there's people listening down in California that I mean that sounds cool, man. Like that that it's I mean you're on the beach, like it sounds awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's absolutely I mean it's it's the one thing when I moved to Michigan, I sort of didn't really look back. I love it here. I really, really do love it here, but the the the one thing that that I do miss is the surf fishing because of the simplicity of it. Um there's one there's two baits that these fish are after, and and the main one is a is a mole crab, or we can call them sand crabs, and they're really easy ties. Um surf and murkin' is probably the most famous little sand crab. Anything that emulates a little little crab. And these uh these big Corbina, and you know, even uh occasionally, I mean, we've gotten into all kinds of it's a the the ocean is as you know, it's a it's it's full of all kinds of surprises, and and you never know where you're gonna hook. A lot of days you're just blind casting in the surf and and you could hook yourself a really special fish. Um, but you know, as you break it down, um it's just really beautiful to be out there in this large expansive beach and just walk for miles and find rip currents and uh and structure little divots and and troughs as the tide comes in and and uh and and start to break it down like you'd break down a river.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, talk to me about that. Talk to me more about the tactics of like where because I'm on the beach. Uh what kind of gear do I have, first of all, if I'm down there with you?
SPEAKER_00So yeah, basically any striper line, um, like a full sink striper line um for your rod. So I I fished, I I would as I honed my skills and got good at fishing, I I basically uh wanted to go as light as possible. So I had a I had a stiff, it was an Xi 3 Sage 5 weight. Um no, sorry, it was a yeah, XI3 six weight. That was a five foot, five eight, six weight. Um and and that's what I that was my main rod.
SPEAKER_01Five eight six weight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So the rod is how long is the rod?
SPEAKER_00Five, five, uh, no, sorry. Eight, five. Got it. Eight five, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. A lot of numbers.
SPEAKER_01So eight, five, six weight with a sinking line.
SPEAKER_00Sinking line, yeah. I think it was about a 250 grain sinking line. Um and and uh you need a stripping basket. That's kind of the the the thing that that allows you to walk the shore and uh and and you have the line sitting at your feet, um, it's just gonna get sloshed around by the waves and stuff because you're usually standing in out ankle deep water, depending on where you're fishing. Sometimes you're out there fighting the waves, getting blasted, you know, trying to get out as far as you can if you if you notice like some structure that's deep or fish that are further out. But for the most part, all the fish you're fishing for are feeding right where you're standing, because those sand crabs live right in the shore break.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so depending on the time of year, a lot of times it's just finding the sand crabs, finding uh like a rip current, uh, which is a river within an ocean. So uh if you imagine the currents moving out, it's like it has this like sucking sort of quality. How do you find that?
SPEAKER_01How do you would you see it?
SPEAKER_00Or usually if you have some point of elevation, you can see them like amazingly well. If you go on Google Maps, pull up the Pacific Coast, and just zoom in and scroll, you'll notice all these little like uh almost like they look like uh like murky water kind of making a shape of uh of an atom bomb, you know, like the mushroom cloud. Yeah, and that's the current going out and the and the the sand sort of dispersing.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, so you can pull you can search them, and uh it's just a phenomenon that happens. I'm not sure the physics behind them, uh, but I know they're a danger for people that are swimming out there can get stuck and you pulled out. And I've been in uh I've fished rip currents that were just ripping super hard to where like I was standing literally in uh calf high uh water and and slipped, and it almost felt like it was. Just gonna pull me like an escalator out to them. I've experienced some really, really crazy ones, but those are rare. Usually they're they're pretty mild, but you can notice them, and what happens is fish will line up just like a river. It's a trough of food.
SPEAKER_01So fast water and slow water kind of seams and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's just this sort of weird thing where it's like almost like the beginning of an escalator. You know, you're just standing at the foot of the escalator, and that's the rip current, and uh you can see where it it'll look it'll create a trough, like a V, like it'll dredge a trough in the ocean. Um, and the fish will work their way in and they'll stay in that in that area. Um so those are those are great for fish to school up and and concentrate.
SPEAKER_01Do they kind of stay in the same place? Or they do you kind of have okay, I know it's this mile marker on the beach is kind of like where this one rip No, it changes every day.
SPEAKER_00The tides come in, tides go out.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, but you know, there's been certain times where you you find a really good spot and and it stays that way for quite some time. And then you have a weather system come through and it might might change it a little bit. Um there's there's definitely like all kinds of inlets where you know the the uh brackish water meets the uh the salt water, um, and those are great. Um so any type any sort of inlet outlets, just tidal flow um will be places that we'd hit and would concentrate fish and hold them uh in in higher numbers. Certain beaches are just tip are typically uh prone to more structure, uh whether it be like you you want to avoid the like the real steep banks that go down where the waves break right on them, a nice gradual bank is is nice for like a rising tide. Um obviously like peak high tide is a little difficult to fish. You want the incoming tide, this was what what we'd try to fish, or the sometimes outgoing tide. Um and uh in that period where the in between, where you know, in the in the tidal flows, uh there's this period where the tide's coming in so that it creates like a river, right? Right. And then all of a sudden that tide's gonna have to go back out, and then at that point where everything stops, is a you'll just see fish kind of blitzing, you know, uh halibut feeding and jumping out of the water. Just you know, those moments are are kind of moments that you set yourself up for.
SPEAKER_01Are those hard I thought you said okay, so so you're fishing tide coming in, tide coming out, and also high tide?
SPEAKER_00Uh in in tidal flow areas, okay. Um, so that's that's a little different than the surf. But if I if I'm going to a tidal flow area, okay, it's uh a high tide fishing uh standing on a beach can be pretty rough.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, that's what I mean.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it gets it gets kind of rough. Uh so but if you're in a tidal flow area, it's like fishing a river that's just a little higher, uh, the water levels elevated. So it, you know, some depending on which one you're fishing, sometimes it might be ripping through there, it might be a little difficult. Um, but once that tide stops and it it's about to shift the other way, okay. It's it's a a magical little time where you have this nice window.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And I I'm sorry, I'm gonna I got a bunch of questions now about this because I think it's super cool. But did you and we're gonna get to Michigan. We're gonna talk about Michigan.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. We're gonna talk about Michigan. A lot of stuff to cover, man.
SPEAKER_01But how are you uh so you're looking for these uh these different rivers inside the ocean and structure you mentioned, uh uh brackish water, places that that you're looking for fish. How are you how do you target them? Like how do you cast them? How do you work work that area? Do you work far to near? Do you hit it over and over and over? Do you have to move a lot? Like how do you work these places?
SPEAKER_00It's uh it's a lot of moving, a lot of moving around, a lot of casting, a lot of covering water, absolutely. You're just covering water, and uh you know it's uh it's there's a there's a ton of opportunities in especially in San Diego, a ton of really fishy spots, but they do get fish pretty heavily.
SPEAKER_01And uh and I really feel like I wasn't gonna expect that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, by by bait fishermen and people out there that that you know tend to keep fish. Um and uh and it's unfortunate because the you know those areas could be really good if they were better managed. Um, but uh the the Pacific Surf, the wide open surf is just like this beautiful place because you can put a lot of effort in and you could get a lot of reward by by walking and covering water. And there's certain beaches that are a little bit harder to get to. Um, so we have uh really well-known surf beaches where at any time in any given day in the summer, it's just gonna be packed full of people. Right. Um Pacific Beach, uh, you know, Encinita, certain beaches, some certain stretches are just um absolutely impossible to whip a fly rod around without hooking somebody.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you don't want that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so you want to find those beaches that you have to hike to, and that's usually, you know, uh like richer areas like uh the La Jolla coast, there's cliffs, and you have to hike down to the beach, and and those beaches a little more secluded and they're more they're more accessed by like just uh you know surfers and people that are die hard. Yeah, and uh and you get up early in the morning. Sometimes I'd fish these beaches at night when I when I uh conventional fish them, uh, and that was incredible. Um headlamp on, yeah, and uh catch little sharks and stuff. And um man, it's it's just you just walk and you find structure. Sometimes you're just casting and walkings, and then the best part about it for me was uh as I honed those skills and got into it, I really dialed in these these certain species. Uh Corbina was one of them, and uh and spot fin croaker was the other. So spot fin croaker and corbina are uh Corbina looks like a just a redfish that's a little bit more streamlined. It's got these pectoral fins that you use to surf the waves. They look black in the water, but the moment you take the fish out of the water, they they're gray. Um they're silver. So uh and if you go to Florida, like a redfish in the surf is actually silver too. Uh or if you go to any place where you can catch a redfish in the surf, usually they tend to be less uh of that that um bronze color, more they're more silver. Um, and a Corbina just looks a little more slender, but has got the same face, same mouth, um, just a little different, and they fight really hard. They they're and the spot and coker is kind of the bulldog version of a of a of a Corbina. They're they're harder to catch, a little more picky.
SPEAKER_01Um why bulldog? That makes me think like tougher, harder to catch, like harder fighter.
SPEAKER_00Broad shoulders, they're taller, so they have like a hump. They look like a freshwater drum that that worked out and lived in the surf or lived in current. Freshwater drum, the first one I saw, I mean, I blew my mind. Like I was uh I thought I was hallucinating, like it looked exactly like a spot and croaker. Um and uh and but a spot and croaker you hook it and and they'll take off and they can burn your hand. Like they pull so hard. Uh uh and they they're they're very Corbina too. They're they're Corbina known as like ghosts of the coast, you'll you'll see one and you'll lose sight of it. Um uh they they're very hard to catch. And but you can sight fish them. That's the thing that I got really into, is is actually walking the beach, well not casting, just walking and finding one and and stocking it and waiting for that perfect moment to cast and like cross paths with it and figuring out the right fly. Um spotfin croaker tend to be way more picky um about the type of fly that you use. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you catch them blind casting. I've you know caught them on on Klaus or minnows where you know if I was actually sight fishing one, I would never use a Klauser minnow. Um uh but I figured out um why not sort of this this uh well they it's just I don't I don't know. I they just seem to be very picky. Um and and it goes back to my first real experience and kind of one of the coolest moments um in that journey of learning fly fishing and learning to surf. Um I had this amazing opportunity at a school of spotfin croaker that were feeding in this kind of the the co the tide was coming in and there was a trough which uh it was kind of slowly coming in, the trough filled with water, and it was almost like this still little pond, and the ocean hadn't quite eaten it yet, so it was it was slowly rising, and the spot fin had worked their way in, and there was a lot of food in there that I couldn't tell exactly what they were eating. Um, but they were corralled in there like a school of carp just mudding, you know? Yeah, and uh I was standing right in front of them and I had the dorky chess pack open and all my flies and tying on, you know, whatever the chess pack. Like I thought that was cool. Yeah, yeah. So it'd be cool.
SPEAKER_01Did you get rid of the chess pack?
SPEAKER_00I did. Yeah, I got it. It's not cool anymore.
SPEAKER_01I've tried the chess pack. I mean, I'm just bringing it up because probably people are listening, like, I wear a chess pack. But um I I I wear the I've done everything, man.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, I still I still whip finish with the whip finish tool, man. I I'm full of dorky habits. Uh, but you know, I the the the chess pack was something I I I definitely had to experience.
SPEAKER_01It's a failed experiment for Dave.
SPEAKER_00You know, yeah. Um I forgot it because I just thought it was cool. Um, I don't think functionally it was that great. But anyways, I had the flies out and I'm pulling out every fly in the in the box and I'm throwing it at these spot fin croaker. And for whatever reason, I had a gray hair's ear or a stonefly. There you go. Nice. Just sitting in this box, and it was the last fly. Every every fly through was like blatantly rejected, and I got to watch their behavior, and I put the stone fly on, and right as I put it on, I I saw the biggest spot fin croaker of the group move in and I put it right in front of it, and it ate, and I caught it, and it was it was huge, big spotfin croaker, it was an amazing moment. And uh, and I took that home and uh and I started tying these nymphs for uh for the surf and I would trail them behind whatever pattern I usually would use. Yeah, and I started catching more and more spotfin croaker and uh and made a little bit of a of a dent in the this small you know kitsch group of of surf fly fishermen in my area, and uh and and so it was a breakthrough moment. It was a breakthrough moment. It was my first major breakthrough moment as a as a as a fly angler, and it I couldn't be more elated um that I was blessed with this like little bit of knowledge that I had sort of discovered in this in this thing that had been going on long before I ever started fly fishing. And uh yeah, it became like this this thing, and we we caught a lot of really great fish on real small nymphs in the in the surf.
SPEAKER_01So how how small are we talking?
SPEAKER_00We're this is uh uh just I mean, gosh, I'm so bad with sizes, but um you know, what's what's uh what's a mid-size uh hairsier stonefly? Like what what size would you like a bigger but not huge?
SPEAKER_01I mean for like fishing a river, like fishing Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say probably uh like a size twelve, you know, twelve or fourteen, depends on the river, of course. But like you know, if you're fishing like really if you're fishing a small nymph, I'm thinking like and you're not going crazy like in the twenties, I would say like sixteen eighteen is like a pretty small uh nymph on some rivers, and then if I'm going like twelve, fourteen, ten, those are bigger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd say twelve fourteens would be the ones that we we tie. Um yeah, around twelve fourteen. Um sometimes the hook would get bent out um if we hooked something big.
SPEAKER_01It seems like a size a bit a fish like that would just I mean I guess your hook strength is important, you know.
SPEAKER_00I mean it just seems well I mean we just I'd play I mean I eventually would move on to tie him on saltwater hooks. But at the time I didn't know of any saltwater hooks that that were nymph-shaped, and uh and now there's so many options out there. But uh at the time we we would just I'd fish you know really light line, like eight-pound test, and I would just fight the fish as if the hook was uh a part of uh the equation. Yeah, so I you know wouldn't pull too hard on them. Uh and that's the beautiful thing about fish fighting a fish in the surf. There's nothing for them to break you off on that can run for days, and as long as you have enough line on your spool, you're you're good to go. That's cool.
SPEAKER_01Um all right. I I promised we were gonna go talk about Michigan. So before we go to Michigan, though, is there any like techniques or uh tactics that you think that you gotta get out there? Like, hey, if you're gonna go down San Diego, we haven't talked about this. I want people to know X.
SPEAKER_00Uh pop into the fly stop. That's their that's San Diego's uh fly shop now. Um I don't know where it's located, um, but it was it opened up after I left. Um and uh it's just stocked anyone there, they'll they'll set you up um with the right gear, and then just uh just there's no there's no stretch of the beach down there um that's uh that's gonna be terrible. Um the fish live everywhere. However, if you're looking at a map, just look at any of the inlet outlets. Um, make sure that you're not you know doing anything illegal. And I know some of them might have restrictions as far as fishing, but um uh you know, any of those inlet outlet areas, uh, you know, that those are the gonna be the places to start looking for fish. And usually that's along you know the the 101, the coastline. Um and uh yeah, you can't go wrong, just just walk. You find yourself a you know a little structure, any part of the water that looks like a a trough or a divot, or you know, you can kind of tell uh a deeper pocket by the way the water is a little more nervous on top. Um, and uh fish the incoming tide and uh you go for it. They like little mole crabs, so you can look those up too. Surfing murkin's surfing murkin.
SPEAKER_01I like it. Uh okay, so how does this play into Michigan? I mean, there's a whole move to Michigan. You said you don't look back, you're happy where you're at. Again, uh walking around on the beach in San Diego catching fish. That's pretty cool. I mean, that sounds it was cool.
SPEAKER_00It was really cool. So why Michigan? Absolutely. Um so uh my wife and I, my wife's from Michigan. Okay, okay and uh and so I got a little taste. We'd come and visit her family and uh and got a little taste of the Great Lakes. Uh and also Detroit. I I think Detroit was just uh I knew Detroit to just be a place that was like a desolate, you know, city that was like uh you know, you know it from the the the great auto industry, yeah. And uh and just this place that was once uh the powerhouse.
SPEAKER_01Also Detroit Rock City, man. Music, a lot of music.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the cult the the history of music out here is just is so deep um and and uh and so important. Uh the the whatever was in my head, we we come to visit her parents and we'd stay out of Detroit. We'd we'd she lived just in in the in the in in a distant suburb, um, place called Waterford, and uh and so we visit her family and then we'd immediately go up north and and camp. And and I saw a lot of northern Michigan first, and and I thought it was amazing. The Great Lakes, Lake Michigan is just I thought, what a cool place. I mean, it it it looks like in the summertime, it looks like you're you're on uh a beach in the Bahamas, like it's just white sand and beautiful clear water. Um, and uh a couple of those trips, I I was really successful just walking the the coast of uh you know Lake Michigan, catching a smally, you know, off of a little stump out there or like an old broken-down dock, and uh just beside myself, like this beautiful smallmouth bass, just all colored up in the Great Lakes. And uh and so I started looking into fishing in Michigan, bought a couple books. Um books? And uh one of them was uh was was uh the most important one was was written by Jerry Darkus, uh fly fishing the inland oceans. And uh that one really caught my eye because I was an ocean fly fisherman. Like I was very proud to be a fly fisherman that was unafraid of standing in front of an ocean with a fly rod.
SPEAKER_01No, I think that's cool, man. And that's a cool name for the book.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, it's a beautiful, it's a really great book. And Jerry, uh there's a full circle story there, but um that book really inspired me. Um that book inspired me to want to uh to come to Michigan and want to just tackle the Great Lakes. Like I I wasn't really that much that interested in the blue ribbon trout water, um, although you know I would I would try to do that too. Um I wanted to to figure out what these great lakes were all about.
SPEAKER_02The inland oceans.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the inland oceans. Uh that was my that was my jam, and that was really inspirational. And then the idea that there's this lake in Detroit, you know, bordering on Canada, in Metro Detroit, uh, and and also just it's part of the Great Lakes waterways. It's it the the water that runs through this this this lake, Lake St. Clair, is connected to Lake Superior, it's connected to all the Great Lakes. Um, and uh and that to me was like this really cool thing. Like it here's this almost like this separate appendage of all the Great Lakes that's right there where I was potentially gonna live. And so we we moved here for a number of reasons, but the number one one reason was uh was my my wife was uh gonna do a change of career. Uh she decided I I'm a I'm an RN by trade, I'm a I'm a nurse, um, and uh and she wanted to get into nursing. She was a successful hairdresser, and that was uh just a new thing that she wanted to do, and uh and it was a nice little catalyst for us to just take our nest egg. We hadn't bought a house in San Diego, the prices were pretty high, and uh, and you know, the the market was pretty good and uh and make a major change in our lives. Um it was in-state tuition for her, it all kind of made sense. And so um with that in mind, you know, I I knew in the back of my mind if I if I'm gonna move to Michigan, I'm gonna buy a boat, you know, and we're gonna get a small house somewhere, and like uh, and if I'm gonna be uh supporting my wife on this journey through uh through another career, I'll probably have some time on my hands to fish. And that was exactly the case. I moved out here and uh and she went through her school and she ended up going through all the way up to get her doctorate in nurse anesthesia, so almost continuously through school, and uh and it was it all worked out great, but um it afforded me a lot of time. I as a nurse, I work three days a week. I still work three days a week, so um it afforded me a lot of time to just experience uh uh Michigan and being a musician and uh being a fly angler. Um that's kind of the beautiful thing about fly fishing, is is it it it it's such a there's such a culture and a community behind it. Um I feel like uh you can meet anybody and and if they share that that whatever that is that connects us and binds us all.
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, it's the connection that we and you have right now.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I mean like some guy from Utah and Yeah, uh it's it's it's it's profound and it's it's really special and it's something that we shouldn't lose sight of because I I feel such I feel so fortunate um to to have those things and uh and it made the move uh exceptionally easy for me.
SPEAKER_01Talk about that more, because I think change is exciting, I guess. And um all of the times that I look back in my life, like when I hear you talk about like this move from San Diego to Detroit beyond the fishing, first of all, I'm happy for you, but like that your life is uh good, right? That it this worked out and it ended up that you're happy and and and that your wife is on this new path and adventure for both of you. But I think that those times in my life I look back on the big changes and the decision making that I made or that me and my wife made in in a lot of cases. And there's always um I don't know, sometimes it's easier than other times, I guess, you know, because it there's there's always the stuff that you're leaving behind, right? You know, okay, I'm not gonna be able to fish salt water anymore, and I'm not gonna have all these memories and friends and all these things. But what you can't really grasp is all the unknown uh goodness on the other side, right? You don't it's like one thing is tangible and you f you feel it sometimes viscerally, but then the other stuff like when we moved to Utah, like I had no idea that my kids were gonna love skiing as much as they did. You know, I didn't I didn't know they were gonna make some of the best friends I've ever had in my life, like a couple blocks down the road, and that our my son and I were gonna fish with him together. You know, I mean. There's all these things that you just you can't grasp.
SPEAKER_00So it's so true, man.
SPEAKER_01On the life side and the fishing side, can you talk to that a little bit? Because I just selfishly, I just think that's super cool and exciting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. So I mean we moved to just like 15 minutes outside of Detroit. Detroit was a scary place before that. So we'd go we'd we'd go to Michigan, but we again, like I said, we stayed away from Detroit. And the last time we came here, I was like, we're gonna stay in Detroit. And we did. And uh we stayed probably uh like a quarter mile away from the hospital that I ended up working at in Detroit. Um and uh and is they they just uh it was a big deal because they just had uh their first like uh whole well you know Detroit was sort of a barren uh food desert and they they opened up a whole foods in downtown, you know, cool, yeah. Uh midtown Detroit. And uh and you know, all of a sudden I saw the city. I I I I you know So you guys are in the city. You're like proper well, no, we're not proper. We're we're outside. Okay. Um we're 15 minutes away. Um so just close enough. Um and and as a as a musician, like I wanted to play music in Detroit. I I I I play a lot of uh creative music, I guess would be the word. Um I I played um my since I was 16 years old, I played percussion and drums and uh and I've always been in bands, punk rock in in the early days, and uh, and then was in a band that toured. Um we played kind of progressive rock, classic rock, uh stuff, all original stuff, and then uh and then I got into to experimental jazz and free jazz and and and percussion and and you know, just really fell in love with the instrument and and I kind of put myself out there in Detroit and found these little communities of people that uh that were here from the beginning uh and and had seen Detroit through all of its growing pain and and you know when it was really bleak um were able to stake their flag in a piece of property in uh in a really great area in Detroit. And uh they're there are these young guys that that didn't come from a trust fund. You know, they were just here and they had the right opportunity. No one wanted to be here, and they they were able to to to buy a big building in the middle of this really popular area now that's you know tripled and quadrupled in in price, and and they own this little piece of Detroit and they get to do whatever the hell they want to as a as a creative, as a true artist, people that were just and they're like, okay, well, I'm gonna have a record store, a venue, a coffee shop, you know, and we're gonna host all the music that I'm just into. And it's and it was it's all great music and all these wonderful, you know, improvising and and and creative music uh bands that come through here and uh get to play there and and uh and experience this really cool sort of culmination of uh of you know that a unique hub that you you would have to have uh you know uh of investors and all this money behind if you're gonna do it in LA, if you're gonna do it in San Francisco, if you're gonna do it any any of the major cities in New York. Um yet in Detroit, there are these young, relatively young people that that have uh you know carved out little spaces for themselves and still are are you know going strong today. And and it was so inspirational to move here from San Diego where nothing like that ever survives. Like people have good ideas and they do cool things, but um it just they they don't have the funding, and it just would fade out. And so as a creative, as a musician, I found that really inspirational. And to this day, being a part of that community has been really fun. And there's just so many uh incredibly talent talented musicians, and as the pandemic happened, people would move back to Detroit that had made a name for themselves, let's say in New York or Chicago, and uh and are still playing music now on the scene in Detroit. And I get to, as this drummer, that you know, I'm not a professional musician, but I get to have this opportunity just by being in Detroit to play with these incredibly awesome touring, incredibly talented musicians from New York and from Chicago. Which you wouldn't by being here, yeah. That I wouldn't add I exactly. If I was in New York, I'd there's no way I would get the gig. But the fact that I'm here, like sure.
SPEAKER_01Well, don't sell yourself short, man. I'm sure you're gonna you're good.
SPEAKER_00It is what it is, but um you might let's just say I don't have the credentials to to get on these gigs immediately. Uh I'm far from it.
SPEAKER_01Um but that's a part of your journey that you like that's something that you didn't know was gonna be a part of it, right?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was no idea that that's gonna be like a huge window into my music as well as fishing and my my professional life and my marriage and all that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it's it's crazy. I pinch myself. I mean, when I really think about it, and it and I try to keep that that wonder sort of uh fore and front and center, uh, because it's easy to kind of take for granted at this point. You know, I've been here, I've been here since 2014, so you know, uh over 10 years, and uh uh even the house that we ended up buying is just in a really really cool little quaint neighborhood, perfect little location, you know, nothing huge, but uh if if if I tried to recreate this life in San Diego, it just would not happen. Um and so the the living in a place like like Michigan has been uh an awesome uh move. And then you know, there's the seasons. I I really as a as somebody that grew up in Southern California, experiencing the cyclical nature of of you know winter mode versus like summer is just so uh so consistent. And then you have this major change and you have to shift your mindset set and endure this winter, which is uh to me like I think it's very uh it builds character. I think it just kind of it's why Midwestern people are just different. Uh I feel like that that's something that I I I'm really thankful that I experience now and uh and I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I love Midwesterners, man. I we lived in Missouri and I'm so glad we moved to Missouri when I was getting out of the Air Force active duty, we were joining the reserves, and there's only so many like uh bases that have the airplane that I was flying. So my options are limited, right? Yeah. And Missouri was not on the list. Actually, it's Kansas City, so I'm thinking Kansas and I did it's not actually we're on the Missouri side, and the base was on the Missouri side, but um I had great outdoor experiences, great friendships, like great and the thing that stands out the most about the entire experience is the people. I mean, it's a different kind of niceness. It's a different, it's just folks are so nice in the Midwest. I don't know what they're great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're they're great. I think I I would say they're also wound tight um in a lot of ways. Um and I think there's uh they're in touch with uh also with darkness. Um uh but I'd I'd say that uh Southern California people have a notorious thing where they're just kind of they almost like act like they're on an island somewhere. Um, you know, like oh that's all good, bro. You know, that sort of mentality.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and uh it almost like cringes me when I when I go home and I'm talking to my friends and stuff because I hear it so like loud and clear, and I probably talk like that too myself. Uh but you know being in the midrest, I just I I really find Midwesterners to be more dynamic people, and uh yeah, I just love being here. You know, I feel like it's a it's a good fit.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitoutthere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.