WOT 231: From Dry or Die to Nymphing, Tactics for the Catskills with Chris Gallagher

In this episode we WadeOutThere with Chris Gallagher from upstate New York.  Chris started fly fishing during high school in Virginia, but it was after he joined the army and was stationed in upstate New York’s Fort Drum, that Chris found a connection that would carry him through his military career and beyond. 

His love for fishing the Adirondacks and Catskills helped him decide to make New York his home after twenty years of service, during which he was a hard core dry or die fly fisherman. Eventually, Chris came around to nymph fishing to help get more out of his time on the water, and even earned a spot on the USA Fly Fishing competition team. 

We discuss how to find and adjust to different sections of the river, casting and hooksets while euro nymphing, and the famous Catskills fishery.  Chris also shares some stories about catching fish while deployed overseas in Iraq.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

In this episode, we wait out there with Chris Gallagher from upstate New York. Chris started fly fishing during high school in Virginia, but it was after he joined the Army and was stationed in upstate New York's Fort Drum that Chris found a connection with fly fishing that would carry him through his military career and beyond. His love for fishing the Adirondacks and Catskills helped him decide to make New York his home after twenty years of service in the military, during which he was a hardcore dry or die fly fisherman. Eventually Chris came around to nymph fishing to help get more out of his time on the water, and even earned a spot on the USA fly fishing competition team. We discuss how to find and adjust to different sections of the river, casting and hook sets while you're nymphing, and the famous Catskills fishery. Chris also shares some stories about catching fish while deployed overseas in Iraq. And that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Chris. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yes, thank you. I'm always excited to talk to a veteran, and you're no exception. I think it's cool that you're out there after serving and uh fly fishing out in New York. I'm curious, did you start fly fishing before you signed up or was it after, or were you fly fishing during? How how did the how did your time and service and fly fishing kind of start?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

So I started fishing when I was in high or fly fishing when I was in high school. Did all the spin fishing before that. So pretty pretty extensive. I was down in Virginia, that's where I went to high school. So the the you know, up in the Shenandoah for brook trout and stuff like that in the mountains. Um and then, you know, a little bit of a break when I went in the military. The first couple years were were a little bit of go, go, go. Um, I would ended up getting stationed in uh Fort Drum, which is uh almost up on the Canadian border in New York. And that would have been the top, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Isn't it correct? Correct. Um they always get greet you at the gate with that.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

But there's no mountains there at all. No, right.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

There's a dot to the top.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Uh the Adirondics are about an hour and a half, so you can get to you can get to some of the rivers out there. And um, you know, so that was probably the late 90s, mid to late 90s, and the whole time I was out there, um, every weekend, I was in the truck and headed to the Catskills or the Adirondix and uh really started to explore the state, and that's where I got hooked and decided to when I finished my service to stay in New York and continue fishing. So it's been uh it's been about 25 years, I guess, now.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

So you're from Virginia originally. Service brought you to New York, fell in love with fishing, decided to stay.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Pretty much, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, yeah. Did you um what'd you do in the service? I was in the infantry. Infantry? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Actually, I I think I knew that. Yeah, I did know that. That's why I was so excited to talk to you because. That's cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I like the guy on the ground for sure. When you're up in uh New York, were you fishing like throughout the time that you were in the service, and then did it did it expedite or did it grow at all when you when you got out?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

I I mean I think I I fished, you know, I was active duty for about 10 or 11 years, and then I finished up my time in the National Guard when I when I after I got out. So I retired with 21 total.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Um That's what I did too. Yes in the reserves.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

So I was in and out of the reserves and and you know, getting called up to active duty a couple times and and on federal orders. Um but uh pretty much like from the mid-90s forward, if I was serving somewhere, I was fishing. So you know, the fly rod came with me to Egypt, it came with me to Iraq. Um I think.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Let's hear about that. Well, I mean it yeah. Let me just hear about a fish you caught in Iraq, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

So I've only caught two fish in Iraq. And they were uh rumor had it there was some bass in some ponds up in the uh Tecrete area. Um come to find out that uh maybe some units might have thrown some explosives in the pond before I got there. And so the it was very limited.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Um just to F with you? They heard your comment?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

No, they I think they had a big fish fry or something. You you know how they do it. Um so I ended up catching a couple of these little barbel-looking fish. I don't even know the proper name of them. Um but some of the places over there, it was the only place I could fish was on post, and it was very rarely. I was at a pretty remote spot. And uh so once in a while I catch a ride up to to do some fishing.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Uh yeah, I don't know if it's it's worth it going outside the wire just for uh taking the convoy north just to get it. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

I it's a funny story about that is is the the first time I actually took the fly rod, my wife had sent it over to me and she got me a travel rod. It was like uh a Cabela's travel like nine foot nine-piece rod, so very smooth.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

I got a little travel rod too. There you go, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

So I wrapped it up in uh, you know, the hundred mile an hour tape and the duct tape, and I strapped it onto my ruck and uh got on a black hawk to take the ride up there for I was going to actually go into a course, but um long story short of it, the crew chief, because he thought it was cool, thought it was some kind of weapon system. Um and when we got done, we landed, and he said, Hey man, let me ask you what what's in the what's in the case? And I said, It's a fly rod. Secret, and he just gave me this look like you know, like, dude, come on, like you know, why are you being that guy? And I said, I'm telling you, Matt's really a fly rod. But yeah, so it was cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Uh that's funny. Oh, you caught a couple fish. I mean too.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Like that was it, but you know what? Check the box, right? That's what it meant.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Check the box, yeah. I never I mean, I definitely saw a lot of streams from the air in Afghanistan that were just like, yeah, dude, it's gotta be great fishing. I mean, it's just told me there's good browns in there.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

I I don't know how true that is, but I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Uh, and I wasn't gonna find out, but okay, and then so Egypt. Yeah, I was over there for where'd you find I I don't I I didn't expect to be going down this road, but No, that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Um No, I got I was doing the uh the multinational forest and observer mission, which is in Sinai. It's a peacekeeping mission. We've been over there since uh I think 1980. Um and you're right on the Gulf of Aqua, which is like you know, off the Red Sea. So you get a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Probably caught some more fish there.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

I did, yeah, I caught some more fish there. Um very you've got to be careful where you go because it is a national park uh that surrounds the area, but there's a few spots you can go that uh you know nobody's gonna bother you too much, and you're not bothering.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

You don't want to get rolled up by Egyptian MPs.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, so nothing significant, but you know what? It was it was cool, you know, work a couple shifts and then get to go out and hit the beach for a little bit and yeah, enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

It's a great story, man, and it's super cool. I I say this a lot on the show, but I wish that I had leveraged my time in the service more uh to fly fish. I I had a lot of opportunities that I didn't take advantage of traveling around different places. Most of it was tied to this idea in my brain that fly fishing is connected to trout. So if it's not trout around, why bother? That whole thing that I'm just uh yeah, I don't regret my time uh at all, but I definitely didn't have that kind of mindset that you had bringing my fly route all over all over the place. What was some of the things when you were uh early on in fly fishing? Can you talk about maybe uh some of the bigger challenges that you faced when you were starting out in fly fishing?

SPEAKER_00 8:06

I mean, starting out fly fishing, I mean like when I first started, I I hated trout fishing. That was like when I first fishing. Trout fishing. Um I was a bass and bluegill guy, like warm water, yeah. Um my brother, who's actually out in Colorado, he's a I'm not gonna say, but he's a pretty proficient fly fisherman himself. Um I don't want to give him too much credit, but um, he actually started the trout thing, and uh I guess I ended up driving him because I'm two years older than him to trout streams. It's just so he can go fish when we were kids, and and I kind of just did it because I was there, and then eventually the bug caught me.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Uh wait, so he's older than you.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

He's two years younger than me, I'm sorry, yeah. He's two. So I would drive him to go fishing on these trout streams. And I was just like, oh, I'm here. So um, and then the bug got me.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Um Okay. All right. What kept you kept him back after when you were out there and the trout were causing your frustrations? Was there something about fly fishing that really hooked you and made you come back, even though you're kind of struggling in the beginning?

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Yeah, I I think when you look at fly fishing, it's the reason we all do it, it's it's where you're at, right? I mean, you never really go somewhere that's pretty awful when you're fly fishing. Um for me, it's just it's a it's it's such a break from the norm. Um and you kind of just get into that zone where it's just kind of you're concentrating on one thing for however long you're able to do it, and if you can do it for an hour or two hours a day, or if you can do it for 16 hours or 20 hours in a day, cool, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Um everybody has their kind of however much they can go, right? Yeah, everybody has different seasons in their lives where they can go more or less than others. I would assume that when you got out of the military, you had more time to fly fish. That was my experience.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

I did, yeah, I did. Um, you know, it opened up a little bit. I played around with college for a little bit, I got into environmental protection as a career, and uh, you know, I I made it work. Made it work.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Um Catskills is uh a challenging fishery in my mind. I think of them as like a just a difficult fishery, and I think of it as like more of a fly a d a dry fly fishery. We were talking about this before the show a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

You said that you were kind of dry or dye for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

I was dry or dye for like 20 years. Um 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Like define dry or dye. Like how dry how bad are we talking? So I'd have three.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

And I would I would maybe swing it if I desperately needed a fish, but I I wanted nothing to do with with niffing or or streamers, and and wow, I miss out on a lot, I think, you know, over over the years of just sticking with that. Now you're never wasting time on a trout stream, right? Like that's we've I think we can all agree on that. Um, however, I spent I don't know how many thousands of hours standing on a stream watching the water, waiting to see a fish rise, or targeting fish, where I could have been exploiting the life cycle, you know, the the feeding cycle. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Um Okay, all right. So what brought you around, man? What where did you see the light?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

So when my kids, I got some teenagers, so when my kids are a lot younger, I think I had one year where my wife said to me, she's like, You didn't fly fish this year, which is insane for me. And I realized just you know, two, three-year-olds, you know, running around and and I didn't fish at all. Um and I got out that one year and for maybe two or three times, and I think I had two or three fish on a dry fly, like opportunities, right? Yeah, and it hit me like if I get time to go on the water, I should probably really think about fishing any technique I can.

unknown 11:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

As long as it's with the fly rod, you know, that was my my thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Fly or die, but not dry.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Fly or die. And then actually I kind of made of I might have delved off a little bit into kayak fishing for a bit, but uh, you know, the fly rod brought me back.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Okay. So yeah. So the kids. There's the kids right.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, it was just the you know, having to using the time effectively on the water that I had, right? A very limited time. I couldn't time it for the hatches like I used to do when I was younger and single and go out for a couple hours and knew what bugs were coming off and the timing.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Um, you gotta kind of know the timing if you're gonna do it that way.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah, if you're targeting, right? Like there's you could you can always go out and prospect, but you know, I think when you're looking to catch a hatch, it's um some local knowledge is important. Um so yeah, it was just listen, if I can get out at two o'clock on a sunny day, what what can I do? And I can niph, I can throw streamers, and I started to uh delve down into that that pit.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yeah, well the cat skills, like I said, it's I don't know, like it's got this kind of mythical or nostalgic kind of history to it with dry flies and dry fly fishing. So did that play at all into your like the way that you formed into this dry or die fisherman in the beginning because you're in this kind of fishery that was and I and I might be misrepresenting the cat skills.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I don't I don't know, but there's there's a lot to be said for that. There's still a good, I wouldn't say maybe the majority, but I say the majority of fly fishermen out here, and that's just me pulling a number out of, you know, or yeah, yeah. But yeah, there's still a very large portion of the fly fishermen out here that are dry fly fishermen. That's what they come to do um in the catskills. The local shop that I used to go to, Catskill Flies, it's now Trout Town Flies in Roscoe. Um, you know, the the the owner there, Dennis, is uh he's a veteran, he's a Vietnam guy. Um he was very dry fly or die. And and you know, if I even came in and mentioned I was thinking about nymphing or doing something else, um, like he would just tell you to go sit out in front of the store. Like, just like get out of the store.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

I don't want your business.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Kindly leave. Kindly leave. That's not even a joke. Um, so uh, you know, so yeah, a little bit to that. Um there is there is a very it it is nostalgic. It's it's you can feel the history in some of those rivers, especially when you go up higher and you're up in the the the proper cat skills, like in the hemlocks. Um you know, the same rivers that Theodore Gordon was was fishing, you know, same areas. And um there's a lot of folks that still keep that alive, and it's really cool to see that. Um lot of respect for those folks that do that.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

So when you got started in nymphing, then it progressed, and I mean you took it all the way, man. I mean, you're Team USA fly fisher, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yeah, yeah. I made the team last year, yeah, correct. I I got into competition fishing, which is um, you know, when when you start getting, let's say, proficient at nymphing, and you start understanding how to how to fish um subsurface and and you start getting kind of all around. I got a funny story about it, but um Let's hear it. Give me the story. The the competition seam is like a whole new level. Um and it just um so I I tried a few times to get into comps over the years. I've always been kind of looking at it from a distance, and it's not huge in the US as it is overseas. There's a little bit more of a following overseas. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, and there's there's a couple hundred active competitors in the United States, um, and but there's not really a whole lot of backing to it.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Um why do you think that is? And Europe is more popular.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, it's it's certainly more established. I mean, uh I think it's been around longer. I think uh they're a little bit more structured. Um They have more people participating too. I I don't want to say I know that for a fact, um but but it seems to be it seems to be a little bit like if you look at some of the the websites for competitive fishing, you'll see a hundred people in a lock tournament, you know. Um you know, very rarely do we have a tournament that large. Even Nationals is not not that big. Um so I've been looking at it from a distance for for some time. And uh I tried to get in a couple, and I got you know, I didn't make it in because there wasn't enough slots and whatever. And then uh just I guess prior to COVID, um state New York opened up and I put in for it, and to my surprise, I get registered and I go up there, it's up in the Syracuse area, and I get a hotel room and and I uh I don't sleep the entire night prior because I am just all nerves because I'm like, I want to go in there and make a good impression. I'm studying the numbers from the year prior. This is good. Yeah, so I go, I go to first first off in the morning, do my my my first two-hour block. Um, and the year prior, the guy who won it won the entire competition with 32 fish.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

So my first two hours I hit out the gate, and I am hitting every bit of water. I'm covering seams, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing, and I get 30 fish in two hours.

unknown 19:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

So now it's a two way. Last year, right? Yeah, absolutely. So uh, you know, I'm like, these guys have no idea how to fish. Like I just came in off the couch, and I just smoked this competition.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

So I walk back down the street to where all the cars are staged, and there's two guys that are veteran competitors, and they say, Hey new guy, how'd you do? And you know, I kind of a little cocky, you know. Yeah. I said, uh, you know, I got 30. And they're like, dude, great job. You know, congratulations, man. That's a that was a that was a good session. And I said, Yeah, yeah, thanks, man. How'd you guys make out? And uh he says, Well, I got uh 74 and Peter got 77 and Ken got 112. And it was in that moment where I realized that uh, you know, maybe I maybe I need to learn some stuff. Like, you know, like I thought maybe I was the guy. Um but when you hear numbers like that, um, and I worked very hard to get 30, and guys are catching 70 and 100 fish in two hours. Um it's it's a whole new level, right? And uh and you know, that later I did well in the overall in the tournament, but the the competition, but uh you know, just hanging out with guys and fishing with guys that are very open about what they do and the tactics they use. Um everybody that's there, it's not like a uh it's not like a true competition cutthroat kind of thing. At the higher level it is a little bit, but at the local competitions, the interregionals, everybody is basically sharing knowledge, talking about techniques, everybody's like-minded. Um, and I don't think I've ever been to one of the competitions where um folks aren't looking for other people to do well. Yeah, um, and it it's really it's a really cool community. So I kind of kind of jumped into it and um fast forward a little bit and did well in a couple of comps, and you know, so now I'm kind of where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

All right, made the team for you, Chris. That's awesome. So you're on in the cat skills, you've made the transition from dry or die to nymphing, and then eventually you get into Euro nymphing, I would imagine. And that takes you into the comp world and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Correct, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Can you tell me about um and we talked a little bit about my perception of the cat skills. Sure. When you have people come out there to fish, uh what's something that stands out to you as uh surprises people or takes them off guard or something that's you know that you think is unique to the cat skills that's maybe underappreciated?

SPEAKER_00 22:05

So I think the the coolest thing about the cat skills, and I hear people say it quite a bit, is just the diversity of the water types. Um, you know, I've I've fished out west quite a bit, and and you know, you drive two or three hours between these big rivers, and it's kind of kind of cool. But like a lot of spots, the rivers and the water types are very similar. You know, if you know what I mean. There's a tailwater in Montana is almost the same as like a tailwater in Colorado, right? They're kind of, in my opinion, they're kind of very, very close to that. Um in in the Catskills, you have the Upper Delawares, which are just true tailwaters, the Upper East Branch, which fishes like a Spring Creek. Um, you have the upper, you know, the upper the West Branch, whatever he calls it, pretty, pretty famous. Most most folks know about it, um which is an absolutely phenomenal uh fishery. Just it's incredibly stable temperatures and water level, fish get big. Um a little bit of a crowd issue going on here, but uh eventually they meet up together to the main stem, and the main stem holds some very large fish, they have some great rainbows, but um you also have your your freestones, and your free stones are 15 minutes away, 10 minutes away. Um the beaver kill, um the Willowimoch, um, and the Eusopis is just kind of a hybrid. Hybrid is on the other side of the Catskills. It's a uh the top half is a freestone, and then it has a portal come in um from one of the New York City reservoirs, which then introduces cold water to it. So it'd be kind of it's kind of like a kind of a hybrid tail water. Um but if you're looking for long flats for dry fly, or if you're looking for fast runs, or you're looking for pockets, um, it's all within a half hour. Like you can pick any kind of water type you'd like. Um so I think people are surprised where in one day you can just go and fish any kind of water you'd like.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah. So do you remember any breakthrough moments for you when you're fishing on the river? I mean, maybe pre and post you know, nymphing experience. So when you're out there dry fly fishing, anything that's Stands out as like I don't know, something that kind of light bulb went on for you kind of moment.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Um any lights uh light bulb moment. I I think the the biggest thing that I've I've figured out is and and and this is some people disagree with this, but it's cool. Um you know, a lot of people are really obsessive, compulsive about patterns. And, you know, especially when it comes into the dry fly. And I am a believer that they are selective, you know, they are going to they are gonna come up and inspect that fly and and and you know make a determination if your color or size are wrong, but but uh I think 80-90% of it is just the presentation and and just just learning to add enough tippet to your leader, adding enough slack into your cast. Um and I used to be very, you know, tapered leader, put a little turn in it, little s here or there, and then you realize if you can pile cast and just dump a bunch of line in front of that fish and get rid of all that little micro drag and everything else. Generally, if it's the same shape and size, that fish is gonna eat. It's a it's it's a you know, I say it all the time to folks, it's a it's a trout. Right? It's a it's a fish with a pea brain. It's the same thing as a bluegill. Don't don't give it some mysterious, you know, status because it's a trout.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

No, Chris, they're special. No, they're not.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

They're just they're just they're just fish, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Because that's why they're so hard to catch. Right. That's why and that's the thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

So you can't. I'm just kidding. No, I know you are. I know you are. But but yeah, so they're just uh um so yeah, for for dry fly, that's the one thing I when I kind of started to realize that, and I came from a lot of fishing, the the upper Delawares. Um, and then as far as breakthrough with Nymphing goes, um when I started fishing with some of the guys from New York, the competitive guys, um, Ken Crane, Lauren Williams, um those guys, they they um long time competitors, longtime uh team USA guys. Um of the things they would would show me when you get to like a water, you know, when we talk a-water, is that you know there's fish in this run. Um we all have that spot, right? 100% there is a fish in there, they're undisturbed, and you know they're there.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

It's hard to leave a spot like that for me. Like if I'm walking upstream and I get to I'm like, dude, there is fish here, you know, and and if I can't catch fish, it's like, well, I guess I'm gonna move on, but I it's like I know there's fish in here, you know?

SPEAKER_00 26:51

And 100%. So and if you know there's fish in here, and this is the this is my one takeaway that I got was don't leave it. Do not walk away from it until you can catch a fish out of there.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

All right, and and and the reason being is just if the fish are gonna be eating a certain way, or they're looking for a certain food source, and you can't get it done in that pool, you're not gonna be able to replicate it 50 yards up. Alright? You might you might get the one fish that kind of was, oh, okay, hey, I'm I'm gonna eat it, and you feel like you've done something. If you stand there with A-water in front of you and you work on your tippet length, your tippet size, your weights, what fly you have on, getting your drift correct, right? Not crossing seams and getting it straight down the middle, and you get a fish to eat, and then you can get another fish to eat, you just solve the problem for that morning or that afternoon, whatever it is. And then you take fifteen fish out of the hole and then you move to the next one, and you take another fifteen out. Um, you know, because you've solved it, right? That's the idea.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

I guess the important thing in that equation is a water and the definition of a water, and like, do you actually have a water? You know what I mean? Like if you can't figure that out, because because sometimes maybe I think I have good water, and but you know, I I've definitely had days, I don't know if you had, but where they're just eating they're eating in riffles, you know. I mean I might catch some fish and like seams off boulders and stuff, but like they're in skinny water today, you know. And even though that seam looks good to me, uh it's really not the A water, right? The riffles are the A water. So I guess that's really important, right? Is is figuring out what the A water is. Does this make sense where I'm going?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

100%, because it will change, right? Right. And it can change it can change within minutes. Um, but generally we talk like when we talk A in my opinion, when I say A water, is gonna be that run with a little bit of current, walking speed, right? One to two miles an hour, um, enough depth to make the fish comfortable. Um, you know, fish will be comfortable in riffles, especially if they have a lot of you know um riffles above them and and and it's aerated, you know, they might not they'll be a lot more comfortable. But um for me, like when I say a water, a good run, deep enough that you probably can barely see bottom if at all. Um, and you know there's gonna be fish holding somewhere in that current, right? They're either gonna be down low or mid-current or mid-column. Um, you know, that's what I consider A-water, but but yes, you're absolutely correct. It can change, and that's one of the things that you have to figure out as you're going into it. Um are they holding deep and then moving up as the day gets warmer? Are they sluggish straight on the bottom? Um, are they chasing emerging insects? You know, like that that's the whole key to it, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Well, your point makes sense. I mean it I I mean I agree with you. I think that um I think that it's imp that yeah, I think it's important to know like the that you have the good water. It's helpful if you can seafish too. Oh, yeah, 100%. That's what's so great about a s site fishing a stream, is you can it kind of not only does it help you that day, but it helps you in the future because you've built kind of a little um pattern in your brain that you can recognize in the future and be like, okay, I can't see the fish, but you know, I know that I've seen this before, that that kind of a thing. So I just love sight fishing for that kind of school uh presentation.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

You definitely get like a like a really good positive feedback if you watch them come up and they just turn away at the last second, you know, like do I go smaller? What do what do I need to do? You know, what's wrong with my drift?

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Um but like it's exciting, and you don't have to play the like what am I doing wrong game, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:54

You don't get super frustrated, and yeah, absolutely. Um I I would say and on on that on that, like you're saying, with with knowing like prior knowledge, um probably one of the best things I've done out in my fishing, and I did it years ago, and and I've been a little slack on it lately, but I started a super nerdy Excel spreadsheet.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

And and you know, I would every trip I went out, I would record where I went, what the flows were, what the temperature was, what the air temperature was, what the weather was doing, what worked and what didn't work. Um and after two or three years, and I usually fish somewhere between 100 to 150, 200 times a year. And when I say a day, it's you know a couple hours if I get out or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Counts, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

It counts, right? So um after a couple years, I've got a really good database of just information. So I can, before I even go fishing for the next day, I can look up my local rivers or if I want to take a road trip somewhere, I look at the flow, I look at the temperature, I want to see, oh wow, I went and I caught two fish in four hours. It's probably not worth driving to three hours. Um but if I look and say, wow, conditions are pretty similar to they were two years ago, um, and I did really well, I'm gonna make a trip out there. And and and and and you know, and so so just having that historical record has been has been a game changer for me in a lot of places. Um opposed to just showing up and hoping, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Yep. So you're the second person I've talked to this week that kept a spreadsheet.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah, good. So don't feel too don't feel too I don't know, you said nerdy. Your words super nerdy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

I'm not trying to impress anybody.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Um don't feel too nerdy because I can see how I mean it's definitely I mean I keep a journal, I do, and uh I think it's been helpful. Um and it keeps me thinking too. It keeps reminding me about the things to pay attention to and really just you know, problem solving, looking at the tactical problem, what what is the problem I need to solve here, you know, and there's it's it's always different, it's always changing, but I do so much better when I can actually look at the the the problem and sure and try and make a deliberate attempt to solve it versus hey I'm gonna use this fly because it's my lucky fly, right now, and hey, I'm gonna fish here because I I I catch a lot of fish here, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Um it's a shotgun technique. Sure, yeah. I mean and it's it's and it's easy, it's easy to get in into that. Um you know it's it's I was talking to somebody not too long ago um about it, where I think one of the biggest issues a lot of anglers have when they're when they're getting into getting into that mode, you know, like you said, I'm just gonna use this fly because it's my favorite. I'm gonna fish it, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Um I always tell folks like when you're fishing, like change your rig and change your fly to the water type. And and that was like a really big takeaway for me when I really started doing getting into the competitive scene, was don't don't be lazy, right? Like everybody has like, well, I got a dry dropper on, I like it, right? It's got three feet to the to the nymph and it's a really good fly. And then you you you move upstream and the water type changes, and most most folks will do what? They'll just fish it, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:22

And they'll just fish it or fish through it or skip it. Right, fish through it or skip it, try to find the next section of river that the depth works for their rig.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

A hundred percent, right? And and what I what I like to tell folks all the time is what I've learned is is I get to that next section of water, I look at it. Um, if it has to be in a major adjustment, then it's a major adjustment. And I take the two minutes to to re-rig and tie what I gotta tie, and then you're fishing effectively, right? And you're not just kind of shotgunning it out there because yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, I mean it's uh that's a that's a reason why it's so important to be good at knots and and and changing rigs and doing that stuff because making you more flexible, you know. 100%. If you could only fish the cat skills two days of the year, Chris, which two days would you fish and how would you fish it?

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Uh June 1st and October 15th.

unknown 35:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

How'd I know that question was coming?

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yes. Yeah. I want to publicly thank you for listening to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

No worries. Um June 1st is is uh well then.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

And I love the specificity.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

So yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it it of course it could be off a week or two depending on the on the on the season or the the conditions. But um so the first week of June, last week of May, kind of like call it bug week in the Catskills, um, we've got pretty much every Mafly uh overlaps. If you ever look at one of the hatch charts for the area, um there must be 15 to 20 Mayflies that will be overlapping. Um so essentially you get starting off first thing in the morning and all the way till after dark, there will be bugs on the water and there'll be fish eating. As long as the conditions agree with you. Um it can be an amazing day of just up top sight fishing. Um fish are super active, they know they're living in the good times. Uh it does get a little crowded. We are in the Catskills, so we're only two hours from from New York City and you know, three hours, four hours from Philadelphia and Boston. So we get we get some crowds up there, especially the time of year. Um, but uh for the most part, we got a ton of river, we got a ton of access, and if you're willing to walk a little bit, you can have a pool pretty much to yourself and just spend the entire day just just picking flies off on the surface. Okay, so that's a dry fly day. It is a dry fly day, right? For you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dry fly day for me for sure. Um and then October 15th, you know, somewhere toward the end of what we call the traditional season. Um, fish are on the move. You know, we've got a lot of migratory fish in the Catskills. Um they'll come out of those tailwaters and they'll start making that move to the spawning areas upstream. So we'll have some larger fish in the systems that aren't usually in the systems. Um they'll be apt to take a streamer or your or lar larger food source, like on nymphing. Um and you know, those are those are some really good days, especially when it starts getting a little bit warmer in the afternoon. Maybe you get a warmer day where it's overcast or raining. Um you can have some some epic days, especially uh streamers or or larger on larger fish.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

So does a day stand out in your mind as particularly memorable? Uh fish you caught, or maybe one that got away that sticks with you is either taught you a a good lesson the hard way, or maybe just uh a great great story about a great fish?

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Oh, that's a that's a great question. Um there's so many that have gotten away. You know that that I can't. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think I think one of the I I have a lot of them, but I'd say what from this year I had a pretty and everybody's got that fish, right? Everybody has that fish.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah, I've told the story on the show before.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Oh, okay, yeah. Well, guess what? My fish was was earlier this year in the fall, and uh and I was in I was uh floating solo, and so basically I lined the boat up and I was just drifting down and hitting the banks and and uh it's been a slow day.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

And I is it a drift boat or a raft?

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Raft. I I like to float some of the smaller stuff. Um prefer the rafts. Uh probably go into the drift boat eventually, but right now I'm I'm I really enjoy wading in smaller waters. Um and I use it a lot for from point A to point B. Like I'll get out and for some riffles that aren't very accessible. But anyway, um yeah, so you know how it is. Uh you're on the boat and just throwing streamers for I'm on four or five hours, maybe a fish or two here or there. Um nothing to write home about. And you know, like when you get into that mode of just autopilot, and I was like autopiloting it, looking at an eagle, and you know, all of a sudden I'm stripping and it stops. And of course, the first thing that goes into my mind was, well, I've just put it into a branch, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I'm snagged.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yeah, and I look over and there is the giant swirl of orange, and I go to strip set as hard as I can and just pull the entire line toward me. And the fish didn't swim away quickly, just took its time, and that was the worst part because you know follow-up cast and it was nothing to do with it, and it probably would have been my personal best fish.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Oh, you missed it on the hook set. Oh, yeah, no, I was blaming it. Yeah, you're saying I wasn't paying attention.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

It was me not paying attention. Okay. Um, and that's all it was, right? And and and I don't know if that's gonna uh it's gonna happen again. I know it's gonna happen, but it'll happen.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

It's all part It'll happen for you again. You just gotta pay attention every time. 100% just like me, 100% of the time. 100% of the time, yeah, that's it. Right. Um yeah, you know, that's funny. I mean, do you think that some fish are more likely to uh go again after a missed hook set? You know, because I've had this experience and I I assume it would be different with streamers, or how how much did you hook them? Or um I caught a fish this uh fall and it was I missed the hook set the first time, and it was quick, but it was missed, and I was paying attention, I just ripped it out, you know, too fast. And I was so frustrated. Uh but I ended up catching the fish, you know. But I just I don't know what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that some it's just the fish's personality that day or so I think it's got a little bit to do with that, how aggressive the fish are, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:45

You know, um how pressured they are. I mean, there's some spots on, you know, especially like the West Branch, it's got a lot of pressure. A lot of folks are throwing streams up there. Um in my opinion, I could guys will disagree with me, but but you know, if you get a shot at a fish, it's probably not coming out again. That's probably it. You know, you know, but but there is a school of thought, and some of the guys that I do fish with are really good streamer fishermen, is that larger, uh, you know, the aggressive, larger predators, um uh browns especially, will stun first and then come back and eat.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

I've heard of this.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

And and and so a lot of times, like they'll you know, guys I've been on the boat with where you know you get a hit and then you go to recast and they're like, no, stop. Leave it in there, twitch it, and that fish sometimes will come back and eat. And I've had that happen occasionally. Um But it takes a lot of self-discipline not to not to do a full set and then leave it because you feel like all right, I gotta get back out there and get it moving. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

I don't know if I'm it doesn't hurt you to do that, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:49

I don't think it does, because I I think the amount of times I've actually pulled it out and thrown it back in and caught a fish is probably not super you know productive.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Well, that's with streamers too. So it probably depends on you know, yeah. Too many variables.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Also, I mean also like I mean I I've fished for Cutthroat in Montana where they've missed the fly three times in a row and I've watched them circle back and hit it.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yeah. Yes. You know, again, that that's pressure, like that's a lack of pressure.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Fish has got no idea what's going on, and he's just happy and dumb and eating whatever. My presentation.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

I've I'm 16 years old. I don't even know what presentation is.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Correct. Okay, cool. Uh that's a good story. Thank you for sharing it. Um you mentioned some of the flies, uh, a little bit about flies. Can you help me out if I'm a slightly below average fly tire and want to come out and fish with you? What are a couple flies I could tie that are probably, you know, within my wheelhouse, not too many materials, not too many steps, but they're confidence flies that you would you would say, yeah, Jason, we could we could fish those.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Um anything in the pheasant tail wheelhouse. And when I say that, mostly jig flies, right? That's because I'm doing a lot of urine. Um Frenchies, you know, just changing up the colour, the thread and the collar. Um, but my real go-to fly that I fish quite a bit is uh is a simple pheasant tail. Um Pat Weiss developed that. It's it's literally it's just pheasant tail with a copper bead. Um and like most people say, most flies are for what? Catching fishermen and not fish. Um and if you hold up if you hold up nymphs to your to your your n your excuse me, real nymphs to your imitations, uh, there's not a lot of flash on those nymphs. Uh they're great to get you know get some attention and faster water, um, you know, but if you're fishing some relatively pressured water, I think simple is better. Um, you know, so very simple pheasant tails, maybe a little bit of sparkle on the collar, maybe some different color dubbing. Um I think bead color does make a difference on occasion.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

So why do you say simple is better when it's pressured? And why do you think bead color is important?

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Um I think bead color, because uh there's some school of thought that thinks that the fish are probably just eating the beads. Um and and I've been to different spots, like in North Carolina, where you're fishing, let's say a silver bead that works great upstate New York, um, and they don't want anything to do with the silver bead, but they'll eat a light pink bead all day. Um I wish I was more knowledgeable on why. Um but but you can see, especially when in and this is the cool thing about competitions, when you have a bunch of folks that are fishing at that level, and everybody agrees that light pink is the way to go. Right. I'm not saying it's perfectly scientific, but you know, one guy fishes a silver bead, catches ten fish, guys, two guys fish light beads and they have sixty apiece.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Empirical data.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yeah, there's probably there's probably something to it. Um but like you said though, the what I would say is pheasant tails, very simple pheasant tails. Okay, can't go wrong with those, and then when you hit the shoulder seasons in the winter, uh egg patterns are uh are a go-to around here, too.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Okay, yeah, those are easy to tie. Yeah, super easy.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yep. Oh, and let me give you one one dry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Griffin's what about a dry? Griffin's gnat. Griffith's gnat. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

In a in a 18 or a 20. So just just peacer peacock curl and just wrap it with some grizzly hackle and tie it off and you're good.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

So when you're making this transition from dry or die, now I'm nymphing, now I'm pretty heavy into the Euro nymphing. What were some of the things that surprised you? Like what was something that you were like, man, I mean, besides maybe you're you know, you're you feel like you're having a better experience on the water or you're catching more fish or or something like that. Was there anything that held over or carried over from one to the other that would help someone that's in a similar situation that's listening? They're like, okay, I'll bite. I'm in New York, I fish the cat skills, and maybe I should listen to Chris and give this nib. Thing that uh more of a shot.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Um, yeah, so I I think for me, um, and I I say this a couple times a couple times a month to people, is uh you know, your drift, no matter no matter what, if it's a dry or if it's nymphing or whatever it is, your drift starts in the air, right? So it all comes from your cast and how you're presenting the fly. So um if you're making a dry fly presentation, um you know it's it don't rush to get into position. Figure out your best position to make your presentation from. Understand that your cast is going to be um you want to line your cast up, that's gonna give you the best dead drift. Um, nothing changes from that to nymphing except that you're just gonna be doing it underwater. So when I say get into a good position to hit the run, don't cast from too far away, don't have to reach over seams if you don't have to. Um get yourself in the best position to start that drift from the cast. Um and I don't want to I guess we can go down a little wormhole in that one, a rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Go. Well, I was gonna ask, because this is my next question. Sure. The casting. So I've asked other guests about this, and I'm interested in your opinion. But for me, that's one of the hardest things about tightlining or euro nymphing is is the casting and getting used to that. And that's why I'm kind of I don't know if that's where you were going, but this kind of yeah, so kinda, so so um Go down your wormhood.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

All right, so a lot of folks will hear them say this, like they have no tolerance for nymphing, right? Because they're like nymphing is super easy. Tight lining is super easy. You sit there, you either throw an indicator or you throw a piece of colored motto out there and you just let it drift and a fish will eat, right? That's that's the whole thing. Yes, you can get away with that, right? 100%. You can sit there and walk out to a stream and have zero technique and swing flies on either one, and you're gonna catch fish. However, if you're doing it correctly and you're presenting the flies correctly, um, it's almost the same as presenting a fly subsurface as it is on the surface. And I always joke with my dry fly buddies that like tight line niffing is much harder than dry fly fishing because dry fly fishing, I can see everything that's going on with that fly. I can make adjustments with it, and I can see when the fish eats. If I'm tight line niffing, I have to get a dead drift and I have to strike without seeing any of it. So by by utilizing that cider. So when I when I talk about coming up and approaching, you know, where I want to present to, um, for instance, with with with uh tightlining, um, I have to look at the angle I'm gonna enter the water. Um, you know, make sure that I'm hitting fly first, you know, making sure that I'm breaking the surface tension, that I'm dropping that fly to the level I want to fish, because that's all about tightlining, it's all about control, right? Um a lot of folks will say, what are you doing? You're just ticking the bottom to snag a fish. It's not true at all, right? So if you're coming in, um I tell uh folks that I fish probably the top third of the column on my first run. And and the reason I fish the top third is because trout don't have eyes. You know, uh trout trout trout look up when they're feeding, right? So so so if you're fishing to the bottom and you have a fish holding mid-current, you're fishing below them. They don't have eyes on their chin, right? They're surface feeders. So if I come into a run, I'm going to make sure that I make a good presentation. I fish that top third of the column because those fish are looking up. They may move up to eat, you know, like an emerging insect or something. Maybe they have drifting higher in the column. Yeah, it might be that might be the thing that day. It might be you might be hitting them higher up in the column. Um, and then I'll fish the next middle column, and then I'll fish the lower column. But I'll try to make three of those casts exactly the same and make them precise as I come in. Um so those drifts and that casting that you're you're making has to be precise. You you have to you have to get your, and you're absolutely right, that the casting, the casting of the Euro rig, when we say euro rig, like a mono rig or a microliter or whatever it is, is I mean there's differences, slight differences, but you know. I well, I think it's significantly different from loading uh uh you know, loading a line onto a rod, and then you're actually feeling the rod.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Well, I just mean there's differences between monorig, euro nymphing, check nymph. I mean, but they're pretty simple. Like for me, there's it's a similar problem casting, like the load.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, and but but all of them, if you like if you're using like a larger monora, like a 20-pound chameleon mono rig, um if you if you slow down and you actually feel the rig in your hand as you're casting, um, it's very similar to a light dry fly rig. You can actually load that rod up just a little bit with that. As you start getting smaller and smaller with your leaders, like the micro rigs and like some of the 5x stuff that guys are running, um, you're not gonna be able, there's no mass, you're not gonna be able to load that rod. Um so when you're making that cast, you're actually gonna feel the weight of the fly, and I'm sure you've felt it before, right? You'll feel that little ping at the end. That's gonna be your load point. And a lot of people struggle with understanding that when that happens, that's just like starting your forward cast as you're unfurling on a dry fly, right? That's your maximum load on the rod, and now it's time to bring it forward. Um, the only way you get good at fishing smaller rigs is practice on the water.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Um, there's there's there's really no shortcuts to it.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Um but what do you have to say about the initial pickup?

SPEAKER_00 51:59

So your initial pickup from from your drift of the room.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Yeah, to get to get to that tug of the should be a false set, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Should be a false set. You should be ending your drift with with a sweep and then pulling that rod back um to where you're gonna actually be using the water tension to assist you to load that rod, bringing the rod back. Um, once you bring the rod back, the line will come back, then forward cast in. Um and depending on where you're presenting to, um, you know, that's gonna determine what type of cast you're gonna use. But but yeah, use use the whole system. Um there should be very little, if any, false casting. It should be false set, back cast, forward cast, start your drift, watch your cider, repeat, you know.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

That has a lot that helps a lot with keeping your fly in the water too, you know. Yeah, 100%. You don't you don't have all these false casts, you're just right wasting time.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

You're never catching anything in the air, right? Like that's a uh, you know, and you see a lot of folks they get out there and they false cast all day, and um, it's just gonna cause problems for you. Twisting your line or you're gonna catch something behind you, but what about repositioning?

SPEAKER_01 53:12

So uh if I'm casting to one section, I want to you know pick up and cast to the the other section, is it I mean you reposition your body, or what are some things you think about when you're you know changing where you're gonna cast to? Does that make sense? Like I was fishing this area, I want to fish that area. Um is it I don't know. We can edit this out, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

I've I kind of went on a tangent before, you probably get rid of that too.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

No, no, it's good. So you know, I I've got the rod, I mean, okay, I I drift through, it's coming down, right? Okay. I pick it up like a false cast. So now the if I if I'm going downstream, so if I'm if I'm nymphing, Euro nymphing, okay, and I'm I'm leading it downstream, and then okay, that's the end of the run. Yep. So now my rod is kind of pointing downstream. Okay. So when I do that false hook set, or I I pick up like I'm gonna cast, now the line has gone upstream. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Okay, so it I was pointing downstream at the end of the run, I picked it up, now the line has come back upstream. Yep. And now I want to cast upstream. I have all this slack in the line.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

So I have a technique that I use for that, but I'm interested in what you do. Does that make sense? Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

100%. So you're you so you're if you're standing and you're talking about, you know, it's drifting down in front of you, and you're almost doing a crossbody cast at this point, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:50

You're yeah, well, it's you're you're you're nibbling.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

It's gone from right to left.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Right to left, you know, the current's going right to left, you're fishing right to left, okay. And now you're all the way to the left, you're done with your, you know, I'm gonna pick up and I'm gonna cast upstream. As soon as I pick up, all that line comes back upstream, and and now if I want to cast upstream, it's all in the same place, and there's no weight in the rod. So, how do you handle that? You know what I'm saying? Or there's no weight in the line to so two techniques for that.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

One, and this is probably the most important one, uh, you should be doing that fall set at your 12 o'clock or your one o'clock.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Okay. So don't wait so long.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

So don't wait for it to go all the way downstream. Sometimes because then as you're bringing it in front of you, you should be entering the water. You should have two to three seconds to get to your, you know, depending on the current and everything, and two to three seconds to get to your desired uh height, and then you're tight, and then you should drift down and watch that because once it gets below you and you're going to set the hook, um, think about how you'd be setting the hook. It's going to be either to your side or straight up, but either way, it's not going to be back into your mouth. It's not optimal, right? I got it so the idea is, you know, you're working your way upstream. As you're working your way upstream, fish that, you know, um, like I said, that that 12 or 1 o'clock to your three o'clock ish, right? 2.30, 3 o'clock.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

So then get to here, do your false set. That way your false set is going to bring you right back. It's not going to cross your body. If you do find yourself where you need to make a longer drift, which happens quite a bit, right? Like I've I got a couple videos you can see that where I go all the way down.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Well, when I'm not neuronymping, if I'm just, I mean, I'm I'm getting everything I can out of that drift. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

But if you're Euronimping specifically, as you get down all the way across, going right to left, and you get all the way down, and that line's straight below you. One of the things you can do is when you do your sweep, you know, check your check your back blast area, right? Check behind you. When you're set, right? Do you're set like this and then helicopter it around.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

That's yeah, that's kind of what I can.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

You can bring it just like this and put it right back out. Um, and it's a really good technique too, especially if you're fishing underneath trees and you have cover in front of you, opposed to trying to do like a um, you know, that forward cast, and you're trying to drop the fly in from the vertical, you can kind of come in, do that helicopter cast, shoot it in, and uh get it underneath the tree like that. Yeah, that makes sense. But I would say I would say the majority of that would be just stopping that drift shorter, getting down faster. And yeah, that's getting faster.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

And I'm on board with that because I I'm moving more, and one of the things I love about fly fishing is moving and moving in the river and moving uh with you know as I'm fishing. So that makes a lot of sense. Don't put yourself in that position.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Uh you control everything, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Right. It kind of you control everything.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

So uh all right, cool. Anything else on casting uh that you want to bring up with regard to Euro nymphing uh that you've learned as a dry fly guy that now is doing this competition Euro nymphing.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Uh don't overlook um dry dropper fishing with a Euro rig. Uh it is one of the most effective ways to fish. Um it takes. Uh so essentially, what what's your advantage when your Euro rig is what?

SPEAKER_01 58:26

Drag.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

Drag, you cut down on the mass, um, you're not affecting your fly as much in the water, right? You're mitigating most of that drag. Um so take that in the water, in the guides.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

I mean, there's just thousands, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Yeah, there's no sagging, you're not pulling it off the so um when you can do dry dropper, which is a fantastic technique, especially in in smaller rivers and pockets. Um essentially using a dry fly with a with a a weighted fly below for weight for casting. Um you can you can high basically high stick, right? High stick that dry fly in a seam. Um and and the casting is a little bit slower, you know, the flies it's got a little bit of drag with the dry fly in there, very similar to your traditional kind of euro tight line and contact anything. Um but you have no line on the water between you and the dry fly. So you and you eliminate essentially 100% of all the small drag that normally affects a presentation. So think about fishing a small stream where you're casting and getting your leader in, and there's a couple of cross currents and maybe a back eddy. Um you can you can take that dry dropper and place it right into that back eddy, high stick your rod, and then it will just go around in circles in the back eddy with zero drag.

unknown 59:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

You know, as your nymph drops down. Um and the presentation is is pretty spot on most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Um what's the balance between the two flies? So, how do you play the game of this dry fly won't get tug? I need enough weight to help me with my cast, but I can't pull down my dry fly. So, but I don't want to fish a big, you know, in the cat skills, I'm not thinking like chubby Chernobyl type flies. I'm thinking more Mayfly type.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Yeah, so so there is a lot of patterns out there. Um uh Josh Miller has one called the clueless caddis, which is a here, it's a it's essentially, and I think there's another one called a corn fed caddis. Now you forgive me if I'm getting the names wrong. I think they're correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

You are forgiven.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

But they are they are real heavy on CDC and EP fibers. Um, so you're looking at caddises that are like size 16 and 18. I fish a lot of those that are very small, very thick materials. Um, you can use liquid floating or you can use um silica floating, whatever you you know, whatever works for it. Um pre-treat them. Um they're designed to float like corks, and then you can get away with you know a two or even a three millimeter bead head, which is more than uh sufficient for most water you're gonna be fishing without dragging that fly down. And if you can tie them correctly, and it takes a little bit of tinkering here and there, um there's another one called a popsicle. I don't know if any of you are familiar with that. Um essentially it's polyfill that you get from pillows or from teddy bears. You know, like the what do they call it? The uh those dolls the kids play with the the you know what I'm talking about, the builder bear?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

I don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

Okay, you don't? Alright, cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

I'm just kidding. I have a stuffed uh Velociraptor in the playroom next door that has some of this stuff that's coming out of one of the holes under the armpits.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

That polyfill right there, right? If you use some liquid floating on that, you can actually tie, they call it a popsicle, which is a very small, it almost looks like an egg.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:57

What's the other one that you said Josh does?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

Uh I believe it's the the there's a corn-fed caddis, and there's also the clueless caddis. I believe that's the name. So you might have to you might have to fact check me on that if that's still a thing. Um That's all right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

We'll yeah. We'll see if we can find some of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

But yeah, but those those are those are absolutely um phenomenal flotation-wise. And you know, and you're not really looking to match the hatch when you're dry dropper fishing. You're more fishing that that subsurface and any any eats up top are generally the bonus, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

The bonus.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Yeah. Um but the cat skills, especially caddis time, uh, you're fishing one of those and you're fishing a small nymph. Um, it's not unusual to go up some parts of the beaver kittle and you know have a 50 to 100 fish day um, you know, on either.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

So that's that's good. Yeah. Talk to me about hook sets. You talked about that as one of the challenges that you know you kind of faced uh with the the euro nymphing. Can you talk about some of the things that you've learned with hook sets?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:05

Um good question.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

So as far as broad, that's kind of a broad question. So let me make it more specific. But uh what were some of the things early on when you started Euroniping that you found challenging about hook sets?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

Oh, okay. So I would say number one thing is not committing to the hook set. Um and I think anybody who does that type of fishing um has watched a cider, paused, or you know, maybe done something slight, and your reaction to it is to do what we call like a check set, where you just do a slight pull up on the rod. Um, and that slight pull on the rod, you get a little resistance, and next thing you go to set the hook and the fish is gone, right? Because it happens so quickly, these fish will eat and spit it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

I know exactly what you're talking about. It's like, is that I think that's a fish. Let me give it just a fast hook set. Oh, that was oh now it's gone. Yeah, correct. Yeah, so it's a two-phase frustration for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

100%. It's for everybody. So the one thing that I do now is if I have some inkling that it's a fish, I commit to the hook set. Um, you know, hook sets are free, right? It's so cliche, but it's true. Um, you know, if you see the cider stop or pause, set it like you mean it. And if there's no fish there, it's not a big deal. You just send it right back out and go back into your drift. Um, and and you know, I I I noticed my my turnover ratio started picking up a lot more fish once I committed to that hook set.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

Um you know what it does for me too, like because I have made an effort to do this as well to to commit to the hook set more. It makes me more confident when I'm fighting the fish. I don't know. Yes, I I just I feel like that's a good hook set. There's no mental, it's a split second kind of thing. You got like just a little bit of time where that hook set happens. So whatever happens in that little bit of time is is influencing my psychology as I'm fighting the fish. And if I commit to the hook set, I feel like that's as good as it's gonna get, and I feel more assertive when I'm fighting the fish, versus if I don't, and it's just kind of uh I'm always hoping. I'm hoping that I keep him long enough to to not lose the fish.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Absolutely. When you set the hook correctly and you feel a little bit of weight, there's that there is that I don't even know what that millisecond where you go, yeah, I know that's good. I know I suck it. Yeah, and that's absolutely correct. And and that's one of those things that just takes a couple hundred reps, I think, to you start getting comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

What about using the cider? Was that f hard for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

Yeah. Uh when I first started using ciders and I started getting into urinympic, I fished way too heavy. Uh, my ciders were too heavy, my line was too heavy, uh, floods were too heavy. Um, and and essentially I thought I was doing really good, you know, going out and catching a couple fish a day. It was different, right? Um, but I would really wait for that cider to give me some like like positive feedback, like whether it just stopped or got pulled under or a tug. You know, I would wait for the feel, you know. Um and and wasn't until I really started fishing with some of these guys up here that um they tell you the cider is everything. There could be a million different things going on when your fly is in the water and it's drifting, the cider's giving you distance, it's giving you direction, it's giving you speed, um, and it's giving you any indication that something is not normal, right? And that means set. And if you're not locked in for that five to ten second drift, um, you know, you're gonna be missing a ton of fish. Um and and so just kind of the discipline to understand that fly hits the water, lock in on the cider, it's game on, it's game on, and it has to be game on every single drift. Right. Because if you start, like I said, if I missed that big fish on the stream, I was just gonna say, dude. When you start, yeah, when you start daydreaming, it's when it's gonna happen, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

Yeah. Do you ever use one thing that I I like, and I don't, you're an imp a ton, but when I do, I like to have um backing barrel, like a knot. Like I I I don't know if uh Dominic over Troutbit and kind of cued me into this thing. And I like it because I think why I like it is it focuses my eyes. I don't I don't think that I see anything in the back backing barrel that's like, oh, it it moved a certain way or anything. I think what it does is just keeps me focused. You know, it gives me something to aim my eyes at. I don't know. I haven't read that article in a while, but uh over at Troutbutton, but uh it I like having that. I don't know if that's something that you guys don't like to have when you're competing or if you don't like to have it. What's your opinion on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

Um so I I I've messed around with it a bit. Like I used to tie ciders on and I'd leave, you know, leave a little bit on there so you can get that nervous twitch. I think it has its its advantages. Um What I I and I've tried the the the backing barrel before. What I don't like about it is you're adding mass. Um and so for me it's kind of it's kind of counterintuitive to what you're trying to do. You're we're trying to minimize pure. Well yeah, we're just trying to minimize anything between us and that fly.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:35

It's so so subtle, it's so not that much.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Yeah, but you know, when I mean when you're fishing, and especially when you start fishing like the like the micro rigs, the 5x and you know your tippet is either 7 or or 8, depending on where you're fishing. Um when you start to add stuff like that to it, um, there is certainly a difference, and you can feel it in the presentation. Um if it works for people, that's great. Like, you know, there's uh there I I think there's different levels of OCD when it comes to it. Um I mean there's there's guys I fish with that that they will never use a uh a tippet ring in any in their system. Um too much. Just too much, right? You're adding too much junk out there. Um so it it's it comes down to personal preference, you know. And I and I think if it if you're happy catching fish and and you're using that right on. Like it's yeah. Um, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:29

I mean that's a good answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

I think everyone forgets it's supposed to be fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

Yeah, it's fun and people do it different. Yeah, that's the that's one of the whole points of this entire podcast. So yeah, all right, that makes sense. Um what else, man? Anything else before we start wrapping it up that you want to mention about the cat skills or some of the presentation techniques that we've been talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

Um yeah, I felt like I went a little off the rail there for a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:53

Um, you did no, it's great, it's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

Um I I would say that that uh if if you're looking to come to the cat skills, uh you know, it you you definitely want to concentrate on those shoulder seasons. Spring and fall are your best times ago. There can be beautiful, right? Absolutely. There can be phenomenal fishing in the summer. Um, however, you know, depending on the the drought season we're having, like a couple years have been very bad. Um you know, when you come here, it don't don't expect to be by yourself. Right? Expect there's gonna be people out on the river, and most of the people are pretty cool, right? And that's the it's it's the beaver kill, especially the willowy mock, it's more of a social scene on some of the bigger, um bigger pools. Um you will run into some people that don't know a thing about etiquette, and guess what? It's nothing to get bent about, like it's really not a big deal. Um sometimes on with life. Yeah, you just you just say, hey man, that's kind of not what we do, and and this is what you should do next time. And and I think most of the interactions I've had over the years, people have been super cool with it. Um, as long as you're you know not being overly aggressive about things. Um there's enough fish to go around for everybody. But um I would say if you if you come out to the Caskells, expect to try to try all the different rivers out here. Um they're very different, they each have their own different characteristics. Um, you know, you could fish the beaver kill in the morning, then move over to the West Branch, and you're gonna find two very distinct fisheries and spend a couple of days figuring out which one you like best. Um, you know, it's not not one size fits all. Um and also the one thing that isn't done a lot, and probably I don't know if it should get more attention, but um, we have some phenomenal mountain streams too, uh, where an eight-inch brookie, you know, is a trophy, but that eight-inch brookie has been in there since glacier, you know, it's it's been in there since since since the catskills are formed. Um so uh you know, look for look for a diverse experience in the Catskills, right? You got Western Rivers, you can ride a drift boat, you can ride a raft, you can nymph, you can bow and arrow cast under some mountain laurels, you know, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

So before I ask you my last question, Chris, how can people find out more about you? Follow along in your fly fishing journey, and uh if there's anything that you want to share that you're excited about coming up, uh how about it?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

Um so basically the best way to find me is Instagram, just at Catskill Fly Fishing. I uh got super lucky with that name. Um so it seems to seem to garner a pretty good following with it. Um uh coming up, uh just got a couple competitions coming up this season. I'm pretty excited about going down to North Carolina uh in next month. Um got a couple assault trips coming up. Um going down to Belize at the end of the month with uh some of the guys and uh yeah, I've got a little bit of a bonefish obsession that started a few years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:05

All right. And uh it'll be episode two.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:08

We can talk about Bahamas coming up, and so I'm I'm I got a couple trips ahead that I'm really looking forward to.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:15

That's great, man. That's exciting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:18

Also, if you're in the Catskills and you do get the opportunity to go into Roscoe, you definitely should either look up Troutown Flies on Instagram or stop by the shop. Uh talk to Joe Rist. Uh, Joe is the owner slash head guide there, he's been a friend for many years. Um, and he has the best guides in the business there, so a lot of those guys are my friends, and um it they will definitely get you on to fish. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:45

Well, we'll link to that stuff in the show notes and so people can follow along, see what you're up to out there fishing in the cat skills. Last question. Ready? Yep. If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice, one more tactical and one more philosophical. What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:07

So tactically. Tactically, I would have started taking notes a lot longer, uh, a lot longer ago. Um that's something I've done in the past ten, maybe ten years, eight years, ten years. Um just having uh catalog uh the the the catalog knowledge and and the historical just like basis to go on and say, hey, listen, I fished the salmon river or I fished whatever river at this level. Um uh I think if I would have kept track a lot longer, um I I think I would have improved a little bit faster. Um so I think tactically I'd say that I should should have probably kept better records um and starting a while back. Uh what was the other one the other one we said uh philosophically philosophically um uh strive to be better round well rounded, I guess, you know. Um I think I limited myself to to the dry fly thing um for a really long time um by not being open-minded to nymphing or doing other techniques. Um probably should have tried swinging wet flies and streamer fishing and just all around fly fishing. Um I wish I would have done that years and years ago because I feel like I would have been uh a little bit more rewarding uh overall than than just kind of limiting myself to that that dry fly window at evenings and you know wait until it gets dark and then go home.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

Well, that's good advice. Thank you, Chris. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thanks for all the information you pass along today. Sounds like a wonderful fishery, and it's definitely on my list of places to go. And uh, I know that I learned a lot about that transition into Euronymphing. I always fascinated by that, and you didn't disappoint, dude. So thank you so much for being on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:03

I appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:09

Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthair.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.