WOT 237: Raft and Wade Fishing the Arkansas River with MacKenna Stang

In this episode we WadeOutThere with MacKenna Stang, from Denver, Colorado.  MacKenna grew up in Colorado hiking, camping, and fishing with her family.  

After multiple knee injuries cut her soccer career short, fly fishing became more and more important in her life, helping her move on from soccer and pour her passion into something new.  MacKenna credits her father for teaching her the basics of fly fishing, and for helping to create that passion that she maintains today.  

We discuss wade and raft fishing the Arkansas River and MacKenna’s special father - daughter relationship with fly fishing.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

In this episode, we wait out there with McKenna Stang from Denver, Colorado. McKenna grew up in Colorado, hiking, camping, and fishing with her family. After multiple knee injuries cut her soccer career short, fly fishing became more and more important in her life, helping her move on from soccer and pour her passion into something new. McKenna credits her father for teaching her the basics of fly fishing and for helping to create that passion that she maintains today. We discuss Wade and RAF fishing, the Arkansas River, and McKenna's special father-daughter relationship with fly fishing. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shefchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, McKenna. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Hi Jason. Yeah, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Of course. This is exciting for me. I love talking about Colorado. As my audience knows, I fly fished a bunch in Colorado when I was younger. I still get back a little bit, but I always love talking about some of my home waters or just the area around Colorado, and uh today's no exception, so this is cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah, I'm very passionate about it myself. Colorado and um getting other people involved in the sport and talking about traveling for fly fishing, so really excited to chat with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

All right. Well, I want to talk a little bit about some of those things, and we're gonna talk uh a little bit about the Arkansas River and some of the time you've had floating it and fishing it. But I thought we'd start with kind of how you got started in fly fishing, and I want to ask you do you remember a time or do you remember like kind of the breakthrough day or moment? So this is not the first time you went fly fishing. This is the time where it was like, aha, this is the thing now. You know what I mean? Because I remember the first time I went fly fishing, and it wasn't like I mean, it was yeah, that was cool, that was fun, but it's not always the same time. So maybe it was the same time for you. I don't know. I'm just curious how that started.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yeah, I think there's a a few different pieces to this. Um I grew up in Colorado, so my family and I would spend our time, our summers, um going camping and spending that time together outdoors. And so I grew up um in the Rocky Mountains, going camping. Um, and I think what really got me into fly fishing was my dad. He, when I was a kid, I do remember him taking me with him. Um, I think when you're a kid, sometimes you aren't as patient as you hope your parents will be in the sport. But I do remember there was one time when we were camping, and my dad and I were on his float tube on a lake, and I was maybe 10 or 11, and he just had a single dry on for me, and I caught like 20 trout. And I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. This is so much fun. Um, and that's kind of when I started falling in love with the sport. I obviously played other sports growing up. Um, soccer was my main sport. I also swam and I played soccer in college, but so I think Oh yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Where'd you go play college? Soccer.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

It was a very small school in um Kansas called Ottawa University. Uh what is it called? Ottawa University. Ottawa, okay. Not in Ottawa, Canada, Ottawa, Kansas. Okay. Um, but I did get scholarship there, which was cool. Um that kind of took up a lot of my time. Of course, I would always go fishing with my dad when I would come back for summers. Um, and then actually suffered quite a few knee injuries during that time frame. So once I had graduated, fishing became that athletic outlet for me to continue pursuing. So I think, you know, as a kid, I did really enjoy it around the age of you know 1920 is when it became a serious passion for me.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. It's not really exactly fishing related, but sounds like maybe it is a little bit connected to your uh fishing experience. But I was reading that you just started skiing again, like last year. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

I did.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

That's a first of all, congratulations. That's cool. I'm out here, I love skiing, and I'm sure you skied a ton growing up, but was that I mean, I don't know. Can you just talk a little bit about that and the the difficulty of it? And then did did you use fly fishing at all during that period to kind of like be in the outdoors? Because when you're out skiing, you know, it's for me. I mean, it's not fly fishing, but it it checks that box a little bit. I mean, it does for me. It's like you're out in the mountains and stuff, and I really enjoy that. I don't know what your thoughts are.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Yeah, I I would be happy to talk about it for context. Um, between the ages of 18 and 26, I went through eight knee surgeries. Very long story. Um, but by the time I was 25, I wasn't able to participate in the things I enjoyed participating in. It was painful to go hiking. I, you know, at the time didn't think I would ever ski again. It was painful to even wade. And so my quality of life was not where it should have been for someone in their mid-20s. And when I turned 26, I went to the Stedman Clinic in Stedman Hawkins Clinic in Vale, Colorado, and they changed my life. At the time, they couldn't give me a knee replacement, I was too young, so they um did what's called an osteotomy and gave me a donor piece of cartilage, and it was brutal recovery, but I am 30 now and feel the best I've ever felt. And uh yeah, I never thought I'd go skiing again, and I went for the first time near Salida, Monarch Mountain, um, last January, and it was like riding a bike, it was so fun. I'm definitely a chill, much more chill skier now. I I do the greens and blues, have a beer, go do another blue, have another beer, you know. Um but I'm really proud of myself. It was something I was terrified to try again, and now I feel strong. My knees feel great, and you know, this past weekend I went fishing one day and then skiing the next because it's so accessible here, and it was just so much fun to be like, oh okay, maybe I'll fish this morning and then go ski this afternoon and have a double sport day and and be able to feel good enough and be grateful for my health to do those things now.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah, wow, that's really cool. I'm happy for you. Thank you. That's really cool. Did you I mean, was were the injuries? I don't want to get too far down down the whole the rabbit hole, but um was this from soccer? I mean, you said you're playing soccer in college, so this is all soccer, not necessarily skiing injuries, these are just knee injuries that were causing disruptions or what?

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, never had too serious of an injury my whole life. Pretty athletic kid. Played my freshman year in college, and then the summer into sophomore year, I injured my left knee pretty badly. I knocked the cartilage off my femur, tore my ACL, injured my right knee the following year, and to be honest, I kept trying to play soccer. So this is all soccer stuff, yes, all soccer related, but ultimately not having that cartilage on my femur is what caused so many issues um later into my 20s and and after I graduated. So um, I think fly fishing became that sport where you know I don't play soccer anymore, it's not worth it to me. Fly fishing became my outlet where I could lose myself in what I was doing and express myself and challenge myself to pursue that. And I think that's what kind of became in my adult life the sport that um I can share for myself and with others and with my family.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Is it refreshing to be involved in a sport like fly fishing that's not necessarily required as competitive?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yes, it is refreshing. Um I think the industry can still get competitive sometimes. I try to stay far removed from that. I look at fishing as something that everyone should be able to enjoy, no matter what you do or where you come from. It can be such a magical place. You always hear the saying that trout don't live in ugly places. And um, and so for me, I try to keep fishing as a passion and as a hobby, and I try not to compare what I'm doing to what other people are doing because we can all enjoy the sport in our own way. It doesn't have to be competitive. So, yes, I do think it is refreshing.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Do you have any little flare-ups where you're out on the river and you're like competing with yourself a little bit? Or just like it's okay. We can tell the truth on the way down there podcast. I'm like this too. I I come from a competitive background, so I'm just I've I'm listening to your story and I'm starting to be like, okay. Yeah, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

I think if it ever becomes competitive, it's more as a joke. Like with my dad um last in 2023, I caught my first permit um in Mexico, and I immediately called my dad and was like, I caught a permit before you, and it's like an ongoing joke because he's been fly fishing for 50 years.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, yeah. That is funny. I was thinking you would have gone down there with him, but you're he went was he upset that you left without him?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

That was a woman's trip, so um got it. He he no no boys allowed. Yeah, jokingly upset, um, but honestly so proud. And I think it's funny if if we're on the river together, if we're floating the arc and saw we we both give each other crap or heckle each other on like what kind of cast was that, but it's never it's all in good fun, it's never um to to actually compete against each other. And yes, I do compete against myself. I'm like, man, in my head, I'm like, why haven't I caught a fish yet? But ultimately that's that's why it's called fishing and not catching, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:31

That's right. That's that's true. Otherwise, even the best doesn't catch fish every time, every time they cast, right? I think about that sometimes. But um, do you do a lot of women's trips? I mean, I want to talk more about your dad and a little bit um and some of the trips that you guys have gone on together. But while we're on the topic, I'm just curious, is that something that you enjoy about fishing? Is these women's trips?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah, I do. I think I've met a lot of really cool women who are so inspiring through the sport. And this specific women's trip, we went to the X Flatz Lodge in Ishkaloc, Mexico, down on the end of the Yucatan Peninsula. And my friend Kenzie, uh, her Instagram handle is Woman on the River Collective.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

She is the one who Yes, I know Kenzie.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah, I've talked to her. She's amazing. She's the one who organized it. And um 16 women who hardly knew each other showed up in Ishkaloc, Mexico to fish for saltwater fish for a week long. And you know, I left that trip with so many amazing connections and memories. I it's such a powerful thing that fishing like that can bring us together. So I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Never never met each other.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

No, well, there were two women that I'd I'd met that also live in Colorado um and and knew pretty decently, but the rest of them had never met before in person.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

And everybody got along great.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah, it was awesome. It was so fun to go out fishing with your partner that day and then come back and hear everyone's stories.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

About what they caught that day, what they saw, um, share those stories over a margarita. Like such good memories.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Ah, sounds awesome. I'm jealous. That would be something that I'd be interested in doing for sure. It's to head down to that place and fish. And yeah. Yeah, I think it's cool that people that are so disconnected can become connected so quickly, you know. It's it's doesn't seem that difficult in my experience meeting people out in Utah since we lived here. Like, it's kind of easy to be friends when you both love to fly fish. I don't know whether what it is.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Exactly. Yeah, it's it's so fun to talk about um whether you're on the salt water or in freshwater, I think there's so much you can learn from other people if you just sit down and talk with them about their experiences. I don't think everyone, there's one person who is the best fly fisherman. Like obviously, we all have these idols that we look to in the fly fishing world, but I still think everyone has something to learn. And so when you connect with someone over that, um, whether it be on a woman's trip or um over social media, there's always something to learn.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

So these trips and these kind of relationships that you've formed seem pretty important to you and how you fish. And can you talk a little bit about some of the experiences you've had, some of the experiences you've had, or like how you've progressed or how fishing with these friends and women has kind of helped you progress as a fly fisher, kind of pushed you a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, I'd love to. I think it's all about community. Um, you know, going fishing alone is nice. I think it's um it's something I appreciate doing, being in solitude, especially if it's on a well-known river or in a place that I go to a lot. I do like to fish alone, but I think there's something very special about going um with someone who you can learn something from. For example, I've always loved alpine fishing, but my friend Melissa is super, super passionate about it. And over the past few years, I've done some planned trips with her where she kind of helps me with that planning, what to use, what to pack, what to do. And because of that, I feel much more comfortable going into the alpine, and it's something that we kind of have planned on a yearly basis and that I look forward to. So um, you know, or learning different tactics. I've never been one that's super into Euro nymphing, and it's something that I'm getting into because of other people I've fished with and exploring a little bit, a little bit, let's go, let's keep going, digging deep into this one.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Why, why, why not in the past and why now? Just somebody in particular kind of like pushed you over the edge, or it's okay. Like, I'm I'm similar. I'm you know, I do mess around with tight lining and and stuff more so than before, which was never, but um I do think it's a it works because when I go with someone and I'm not Euronymphing and they are, they always catch more fish than me.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

But I'm also such a purist, and I don't know how your listeners will feel about this, but I really am a purist. Um, I like to use jig nymphs though that that are used in eurosymphing. They work really well, they get to the bottom of the river quicker. But I love streamer fishing, I love a dry dropper, and I love um staring at a bobber sometimes. It's just the classic techniques for me over here in Colorado that I have a hard time letting go of. But I have tried it and I do know it's it works.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

What do you think of it? What do you what what's your initial thoughts here?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

I think those are my thoughts. I think it works. Um, but I don't have a Euro setup myself, if that tells you anything. So maybe one of these days. Um but with that, I think, you know, just full circle here, there's always something to learn. And there's there's people I've gone fishing with that I was like, oh, I didn't think of that. I'm gonna use that next time I go fishing. Um, and so I think there's power in community and learning eurosymphing or learning about different flies or uh right, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

I mean, even if you're not like deep into Euro nymphing, there's still I mean, you can still learn from like, hey, you know, reducing drag, researching drag on the line and the guides and maybe the type of line that you're a leader that you're using or whatever. Like even if you have a fly line, there's I mean, I'm with you. There's other stuff you take away from it and you can and pull away to the other things. Yeah, exactly. That's the way I look at it too. Uh all right, fair enough. Let's talk about the Arkansas River. I want to get into that and kind of why it's a special river for you. As someone who does fish with other people, um when you do go down there and fish with someone who's maybe not been there as often as you uh or is not familiar with it, can you talk a little bit about what people are kind of excited about or what they're not expecting unexpected thing or kind of what's special to you? Yeah. Those are like three different questions. No, that's okay. What is the what's what's the what do people find kind of most interesting when they show up that they weren't expecting?

SPEAKER_00 21:13

It's a great question. The Arkansas River is a very unique river. It's a free stone river, so full of big bugs. Um and it's considered it has 120 miles of gold metal classified water. So to have gold metal classified water, you have to have a certain amount of bug life, fish life, and activity going in within a you know, a certain amount of river water. And so what's unique about the Arkansas River is it actually was in despair um a long time ago, and because of Leadville and all the mining that was going on, and we I would have to send you the story, but essentially the area was able to restore it, and it's really cool that it's now gold metal classified. So the browns in it are wild, they're no longer stocked. They do have stocked rainbows, there's native suckers in there, and so there's so many fish to be caught, and so many different techniques you can use. So when I bring people to the Arkansas River to fish it for the first time, I get so excited because there's not one way to do it that that works. There's so many different techniques you can use that will work, and um yeah, the fish might not always be massive. There's definitely big fish in the river, but you it's a beautiful place to fish, freestone and and lots of lots of bug life to take advantage of.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Yeah, lots of wildlife too, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

I've oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I haven't been there a few times, but every time I'm down there I see some cool deer or sheep or bald eagles, eagles and stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

I mean hawks.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

How do you like to fish it? I know that we talked before the show about the raft, um, but it's winter time now, and you were just down there wade fishing. So can you talk a little bit about your preferred tactics or the what you like to fish uh on the Arkansas?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah, definitely. It's it's a it's a cool area because it's considered high desert. The Arkansas River Valley is what is called the banana belt. So where Gunnison, which is on the other side of Monarch Pass, might be negative 10. It could on the other side of Monarch Pass, it could be 40 degrees in Salida, and it's pretty much a year-round fishery. So while you can't raft it in the winter, it's definitely weightable. So this past weekend, and again, you you don't need to use super small bugs on the arc. I was using a size 16 stone fly with a with a paradigm below it this past weekend, and it crushed. I, you know, the fishing window might be smaller during the winter, you might have an Hour or two between like 10 to 12 or 12 to 2 where the fish are active. But if you have the right flies on, can get a good drift in front of them, um they're definitely willing to eat. And I even had on Monday, President's Day, I had the day off from work, so I went out and fished. And I'm walking along and I see fish rising. And I always love when there's a winter hatch on the Arkansas, it's usually betis or a mid hatch. I put on just a little paragon that I could, or sorry, not a paradigm, uh Parachute Adams that I could see with a little VP. Yeah, with a little emerger behind it, and they were going crazy for it. So, you know, it's mid-February and I'm fishing dries on the Arkansas River, um which just brings me back to my point that there's no one way to successfully fish it. Um it's it's super fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

When do you get the raft in?

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Usually you can start getting the raft in once the river reaches like 500, 400 to 500 CFS um around springtime. So could start happening in March. We do have our runoff, which is like May in May and June, where the river is pretty high. Um, definitely more catered towards whitewater rafting. The Arkansas River is very well known for that as well, through like Browns Canyon. But um you're usually able to successfully float and fish between March to October-ish. We did have a couple late season floats this year because the water was was staying pretty high, but um definitely got to keep the runoff months in mind too.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

So you mentioned CFS. Is there like a um an optimum CFS or like when you go and you're like, this is good flows, like you know, this is good for you know after runoff, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

It depends. Um, I think 800 to 1200 CFS is is usually optimal for um all sorts of different tactics. You can nymph, throw streamers, throw dry flies at those flows all from the boat. Um higher flows are fun because you can um as long as the water clarity is is decent enough for the fish to see, it's so much fun to throw streamers when when the water is a little higher. And um yeah, I there there's I would say probably like 800 to 1200 CFS is is optimal for fishing the arc.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

What's your favorite streamer to throw?

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Thin mint, articulated thin mint.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Articulated thin mint.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

That is my go-to, or a rusty trombone. Um I also like sparkle minnows. Those are probably my top three.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Top three. Okay. Yeah. You've been fishing it recently. Can you tell me something that has surprised you or like maybe a mistake that you made that you like relearned that mistake? That's something that happens to me a lot. I was like, oh yeah, I remember this now. I'm not supposed to do that. Or um anything on the the river that you've been caught off guard by recently?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Ooh, that's a that's a tough question. I think, you know, when you're winter fishing, I think people are so quick to be like, oh, I need to change my flies, that I'm not catching fish. Where are the fish?

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

And this definitely happened. This has happened to me this winter a couple times that I've gone. I'm like, why am I getting skunked right now? And I think what we need to remind ourselves is like other wildlife and animals and even humans in the winter, everyone, everything slows down. And yes, the fish still need to eat, they still might be active, but I think what I need to relearn myself is that we need to slow down ourselves and remember that um the fish are harder to catch in the winter, and you don't need to change your fly a million times. You can look at doing different things like changing where your indicators are at, so you can change the depth of where your flies are. If you're not catching fish, you might not be getting down to them. Or um yeah, I don't know, just taking a breath and sitting there and enjoying the river instead of stressing about catching a fish. So um, not necessarily a mistake, but just a reminder for myself that winter fly fishing can be a lot harder than than other periods or seasons. And um I try not to change my flies too much.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

And well, then you're gonna get cold hands too. You don't want to get all I mean, you only have so many flies changing times in the bucket before you're you know. No, that's a good answer. That's a really good answer, and uh something that I should think about more too, especially with winter fishing. Um, but yeah, I don't like to change flies for just like comfort reasons. Uh and also I don't know, I just don't think it matters a ton, a ton.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

You know, that's gotta get it good drift in front of them, and you know, too. It it it the fish aren't gonna be moving much. You gotta remember to find those deep holes with the slow moving water and yeah, just keep in mind that there are fish in the water, they're just a little slimy. They're cold.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

They're cold and chilly. Yeah, I find that I have to like fish water harder. Like I'll have to, you know, a fish isn't gonna move as far, you know. It's it's not gonna be like it's if it doesn't like bump him in the nose or whatever, you know. I feel like I don't know what's going on down there, but that's what I I think is like, okay, I'll fish and just really go through the seams and and just more looks in the kind of the same water, I guess, than I would do in the same water in warmer weather. Yeah. If that makes sense. I'll I'll fish it a little bit harder than I would before I move on, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah, yeah, agreed. And I think I always say don't leave fish to find fish. If you catch a couple fish out of a hole, there's probably more. Like give them a few minutes, you catch a fish, sit down, have a beer. Have a few minutes to calm down. Like, don't leave fish to find fish because there's likely more, especially in the winter.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah. Or give them a break and come back. I do that sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

All right, let's talk more about non-winter on the Arkansas. When you're on the raft, you know, it's kind of a whitewatery kind of river, isn't it? Is it I mean different sections, different types of water, or yeah, what types of water do you find uh that you enjoy fishing on the Arkansas? It's definitely that's a terrible question.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

No, no, no, no. That's a good question because it is known for whitewater.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Um I guess let me say, like, it's kind of known for whitewater. Like, how do you um how do you manage that and fish through that when it's kind of this kind of almost like pocket water, choppy whitewater kind of fishing, and you're in the raft and things are getting exciting?

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Yeah, so um there's definitely different sections that you can float. Um you know, there's some there's the one that's called the town float where it's a little bit more calm. You might experience some white water, but um, it's not constant white water unless you're going through like Browns Canyon, which I will say the fishing in Browns Canyon is amazing because the reason people go there is to whitewater raft it, they're not fishing it. So you can get on the boat in Browns Canyon and throw a streamer while you have someone who's experienced with rowing behind you. Man, you could have a lights out day of fishing because well, yeah, that's a great technique, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Because you're streamer fishing, like not important that it's super awesome presentation and stuff. You just gotta get it out there.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Get it to the bank, get it in an eddy, and you can have a lights out day. And and I think that's the same for for any section on the Arkansas River. You will have calm sections where um it's not as intense. And I think in the summer you have the opportunity to try every technique, whether it's hopper-dropper, it's nymphing, it's throwing streamers. Um, you do kind of want to find that pocket water. And um, my dad, my dad calls it semi-automatic fishing because you you it's not like on the North Platte in Wyoming where you're sitting there watching your bobber drift for 50 yards. You're if you get like a four-foot drift, fish doesn't eat it, pick up, cast again. And you know, in the summer, if you're fishing a hopper-dropper, you gotta get it as close to the bank as possible. If you're not a foot off the bank, you're probably not gonna hook into a fish. So um, it's kind of crazy to see how the fish move throughout the year, but a lot of the times when the water is higher, they're gonna be closer to the bank, in the eddies, in those pocket waters, and in the riffles too. But we see the most success even with streamers too. Right off the bank, strip strip, fish eats it.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

So right off the banks, huh?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah, I've lost a lot of flies getting too close to the bank, but hey, you gotta risk it for the biscuit.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

That that uh yeah, that can be frustrating when you're throwing uh articulated streamers, and you know, those aren't those aren't uh they're not cheap, right? They're not a dozen flies for 20 bucks. You know, it's not it's not it's not that kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

We've definitely had to row backwards for uh for some streamers that we didn't want to lose. So uh but yeah, I think go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Is there any sections that with the rafting? First of all, anybody run drift boat down it or has it got to be rafts pretty much?

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Usually uh it's two I've never seen a drift boat go down it, and that would be an intense rodeo um so it's rafting. Yeah, it's just so many sleepers, um, is what we call them, the the rocks um that you want to avoid that taking a drift boat down it would not be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Do you pull over much and fish from the bank, or are you like being in the boat and just getting all the advantages that the boat has?

SPEAKER_00 35:06

You can. There's definitely public sections. I think it's important to have an app like Trout Routes or Onyx or Onwater where um you're able to see where public and private are. You can definitely run into a lot of that on the Arkansas. So we do like to pull over, but only on public if we get the chance. Um, and we'll do that too to like chill out and have lunch or switch who's rowing the boat. Um, so there's definitely opportunity to do that. Just gotta make sure that you're pulling over on public and not private.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Yeah, that's fine. That's fair. Tell me a story. Tell me about the one that got away from the Arkansas River, a fish that maybe could be one you caught too, could be one you landed, but I'm more looking for something that stands out in your mind as like especially learn something from it. So it could could be like I nailed it, caught this awesome fish, because and this is what I learned. Uh, or it could be the one that got away. It's up to you.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah, I do have a story in mind. I think it was from last summer. We were fishing streamers, and my dad was rowing, and this kind of just gives you an idea of how intense and chaotic rafting on the Arkansas River can be. Um, I'm fishing streamers. I see, I mean, that this is what cool what's cool about it is you see the fish chase after it, right? Um you kind of want to have the tendency to pull it away from them if you see them following the streamer. Well, so I saw this really nice fish, really nice brown trout, come out from behind a rock and eat my thin mint. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is such a nice fish, freaking out, not paying attention to what's coming up. And of course, we were coming up on a rapid, and my dad was like, Well, you better land it quick because I need to focus on rowing right now. I can't help you land this fish. So I'm trying to fight this brown trout. And as you know, and I'm sure as your listeners know, they're extremely territorial, extremely aggressive fish. They will swim behind rocks to get away from you and wrap around logs, whatever they can to um not be caught.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Not be caught. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

That's exactly what this fish did. Trying so hard to bring it in. Of course, I'm using a barbless hook, so I don't want to lose the fish. I'm trying to get it in quickly. Sure enough, swims behind a rock. I can't get it unstuck. My dad's going over a rapid. I have line going zzz because the fish is still on, but it's stuck where it is. And that's the worst.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

So you're still ri you're going downstream and the fish is not. And you're just yeah, I hate that. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

And uh, anyways, that brown trout um ended up with a new piercing because I had to just pop it off. I was gonna go all the way into my backing. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

So um what'd you learn? Would you do diff anything different?

SPEAKER_00 38:22

I think the way I fought the fish when I first hooked into it, you know, instead of it letting it guide me, I needed to guide it. So turning its head toward the boat, if it started to swim one way, turn its head again. Yeah, I think I let it do most of the work because I was like, oh, this is such a big fish. I don't want to lose it.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

I don't want to wrestle it too hard.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Whereas I should have stripped faster, should have either or gotten it on the reel and guided its head um a lot faster than I did. It just, I mean, it all happened so fast, but ultimately like Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

I mean, we've all been there. I've been there, yeah, for sure. It's this kind of feeling, it's like a sick feeling of like it's such a nice fish that I don't want to mess it up, and it translates into like a timidness.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

I'm not saying you were doing this, but I'm saying that this is how I this is what your story reminded me of. Is and then I start fighting the fish like on defense, you know, like I'm on defense now because I'm so I'm trying so carefully to not lose the fish instead of being on offense and probably doing better.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

That's 100% what I did.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Yeah. Do you find do you do anything to help with that kind of I mean, well, let's talk about your rig. Do you fish like certain size rod reel, tip it, thing like that? Anything different in that kind of water than you normally would?

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Totally. So for streamer fishing from a raft on the arc, I'm typically using a six-weight um with sinking tip line. Um I have used a seven-weight before though when I when I'm streamer fished in Browns Canyon just because the water can be so intense.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Oh yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Yeah, so but normally I'm fishing a six-weight Reddington vice um with that sink tip line just so that the fly gets down to them faster. Um, but if I'm fishing dries or nymphing, it's usually a five-weight, maybe a four-weight, but I I usually stick between the the five and the six weight range.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

What type of leader or tip it set up?

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Yeah, so for streamer fishing, I'm using like the maxima, um which sounds intense, like doing like the 10 to 20 pound maxima leader and tip it. But when you get caught on a tree or a rock, that stuff is so freaking tough, dude. I've had it pop off a tree branch and my fly is still on. Maybe the hooks are bent, but it's strong stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

So um that's reassuring when you hook into a big fish. Like to know that you have like something sturdy on there.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Yeah, exactly. Um, but these fish aren't leader shy either. So you don't need to use this 5x, 6x on the high at all. Um, I'm usually using 3x or 4x tippet when I'm dry-fly fishing or nymphing.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Okay. Are there any hatches? When I was a kid going to school in Colorado, my buddy would always uh tease me about the Mother's Day hatch, and we have to go do the Mother's Day hatch. So can you talk a little bit? I mean, I never did it. Still on my list, uh, McKenna.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

You gotta do it.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah, so Mother's Day hatch, right? So around Mother's Day-ish. Can you talk a little bit about the Mother's Day hatch just to, you know, I don't know, make me even more motivated. And then maybe, and then maybe we can get into some of the other hatches or some of the dry fly fishing.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Yeah, so the Mother's Day hatch is a very real thing. It's a caddis fly hatch and it's a blast. You could be on the river and and be inhaling caddis. There's so many, and you'll just see fish rising everywhere. Super fun to do it while waiting, but also really fun from a boat as well, because fish are kind of all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

And you get access to a lot more spots, right? Like you're just more of the water that you see, I would think, especially on that river. Because it's exactly kind of canyony, and I don't know, my experience was like not a ton of places for me to. I mean, you can wade fish it, but yeah, I was definitely like, man, I wish I had raft out here.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Yeah, the raft, the raft is is super special because you can access so much more of the river. But in terms of like the caddisfly hatch or Mother's Day hatch, I just remember a couple years ago my dad and I hit it at the perfect time and we're going through the canyon um on the lower, not lower arc, but more near Howard and Codopaxi. And um there it was crazy. I mean, truly, you were like swallowing bugs. And one my my dad's like, oh, look, look at the fish over here. There's a nice one. Cast to it, land a fish, release it, cast again. I mean, cast after cast, you're catching fish because there's just so many caddis in the air, and so it it really is magical.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Yeah, that's cool. And is there a type of fly like when you when there's that kind of a hatch, like is it any caddis will do, or do you really have to match the size or color, or how do you narrow in when there's so many bugs in the air? Yeah, like uh where do you start on that?

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Um, we do like stimulators or like an L care caddis. Um I think for something like that, using slightly smaller, you could also do a double dry. So um using a bigger like stimulator and trailing a smaller caddis behind it, like an L care caddis behind it, um, can usually do the trick. But again, these fish on the Arkansas River are not shy to big bugs. Um, so I don't think they're super particular about the type of caddis. I think yellow sallies work really well as well, and um, you know, it's fun to just try things out.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Have you been getting into um well, before we start talking about that, is there any other kind of dry fly fishing that you that you really enjoy on the Arkansas?

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Hoppers.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Hopper season? When's that?

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Oh my gosh. Hopper season is typically like it's pretty long. It could last from like July to September. I've fished hoppers in October too, so um so much fun. Oh my gosh, it could be, you know, you put a size 14, size 12, chubby Chernobyl on top and just watching a fish hammer it. So much fun.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Um do you tie flies?

SPEAKER_00 45:14

I don't. Um, I've tried it.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

It's all right, it's fair. It's fine. It's no shame.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

I I really admire people who do, and I I would love to get more into it. I just think I haven't prior prioritized the time for it. And you know, I have friends that tie really nice flies, and I work with Rio as well. I'm very, very lucky and grateful for that relationship. So I don't, but I would love to learn um and and start doing it more. I've tied some midges.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Good, yeah. That's my that's my recommendation for any fly tire. Start with the zebra midge. Yes, you can learn a lot, it's a good confidence fly. You catch fish everywhere. I like the zebra midge. I wrote a whole blog post about this why the zebra midge is like the best first fly to tie. Um I am a slightly below average fly tire. Um, if I was going to come fish with you. And I wanted to bring some flies that I tied myself. I don't think you need to tie flies to answer this question. What are some flies that you think are like confidence flies of yours that are pretty bare bones, pretty simple flies that I know it depends on this the time of year and stuff, but you know, generic, like good flies that you you know, like a zebra midge or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Yeah. Yeah, that's um I think it's like a three-part answer, depending on, you know, obviously what time of year you come and what you enjoy fishing. So my confidence, I'll do like confidence streamers, confidence dries, and confidence nimps that I use um pretty frequently.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Simple materials, like easy peasy for me to tie.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yeah, so streamer fishing, I would tie up a thin mint um or you know, any sort of woolly bugger of of different colors. They they work really well, especially the articulated one. Um, and then I also mentioned the rusty trombone. That one's a little more complicated, but um is sparkly and the fish love it. Also the sparkle minnow and vanilla buggers. So again, vanilla bugger, another wool woolly bugger just um with that vanilla color. Those would be my confident streamers for sure. For dry flies, oh man, I think foam hoppers work really well, chubby Chernobyl's, um L care catus. Umulators work well too. Um and then yeah, parachute atoms. I mean, I was using that, like I said, this past weekend in mid-February. So super cool. So tying any sort of a merger or soft haggle, soft hackle behind that, um, they love it. And I think soft hackles are great too. Um, because say you're nymping or you do have a dry dropper on, you have a hackle under your dry, yeah, and you let it swing at the end of your drift, like while you're waiting, the fish will eat it on the swing. So I do like soft tackles for the um Arkansas as well.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Yeah, that's a good setup.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

And then you've done much of that. I don't know why. That seems like an obvious technique. I mean, that seems really yeah. Why not?

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Yeah, let us fish in it dry.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Why not like get two techniques in one here?

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Yeah, like a sparkle softy or something. It it just they love it. Um, it looks like it's an you know, a bug status or something coming up to the surface of the water on the swing. So um the fish love that.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

And then confidence nymphs. I love the stonefly. The stonefly can work year round on the Arkansas. Right now, I'm big into the Pat's rubber leg. Um, but stoneflies work really well, and I think just any sort of jig nymph with a soft hackle on it, again, that's another thing you can even if it's it has some weight to it and you let it swing, if it has that hackle on it, the fish in the Arkansas love it. So, like a CD, a green CDC caddis nymph. Um, I also think paradigms work great and any sort of betas. Um I was using a Spanish bullet paradigm this past weekend, and they were loving that as well. So um Rainbow Warriors, yeah, I would say those are my top nymphs, confidence nymphs on the river.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

If you could only fish two go for the midges if you want to get out of the midges. Keep it going. Only need two, but this is good. This is better than two.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Um, any kind of midge, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Just totally.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Zebra midge, blood midge. Um, all right.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

If you could only fish the Arkansas two days of the year, which two days would you fish and how would you fish it?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Wow, that's tough.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

I know. It's gotta be two though. The number two.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Okay. The first day I'm gonna pick is a day in September. Um, because this is a time of year where you can really use any tactic. Um, but I would likely fish a dry dropper in September. Um and it would likely be a hopper dropper because I love when they eat the hopper right off the bank. And September is a super fine, fun time to do this. And then the other time would probably be beginning of May, right before runoff, when the water is getting higher. I've had lights out streamer days from the raft. So um, if I could only use one fly in May, it would be the articulated thin mint and it'd be from the raft.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

What about September? Are you on the raft as well?

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah, yeah. You can definitely float in September. So I think I would prefer to do that over weight. Um, but I'm never gonna complain when I'm on the Arkansas.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

No matter what it is.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

How often are you on the raft versus wade fishing? Like personally, like ratio-wise, are you mostly on the raft or mostly wade fishing? Or is it like is the raft like a treat, you know?

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Or oh no, my dad and I try to get out. I never go by myself. I'm still I can row, but I'm still learning how to get better and improve. Um, and the Arkansas River is a pretty intense river to learn how to do that on.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

So I Well, yeah, plus if you're by yourself in the raft, I mean You can't fish. It's kind of, I mean, yeah, sorta can, I guess, but not really, you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

So I would say in the months where rafting is a possibility, it's probably 60% rafting, 40% waiting.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yeah, my dad and I um try to get out there on the raft as much as we can.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Alright, well, let's talk about your dad. Wait, let me see. What am I missing about the Arkansas? Before we move on, is there anything that you want to bring up or like, hey, before we move on, we gotta talk about this?

SPEAKER_00 52:49

I think I would just say, like, you know, the Arkansas River is a beautiful place. And if you do go fish it, I want people to experience it. I want people to fish it. But I also want to remind people to leave no trace and respect the area. Um, you know, people do keep some of the fish that they catch there, but I'm a big um advocate for catch and release using those barbless hooks and respecting um the area so that generations to come can enjoy it for what it is, and um, we can keep it as gold metal waters.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

All right. Thanks for sharing that. That's good. That's good stuff. We I want to talk about the relationship you have with your father and fishing and the adventures you've had on the Arkansas. Well, start with the Arkansas, but kind of because maybe this is part of the same kind of storyline, but how'd you get started going down there? You're kind of from Denver, so you're not you're not from that area exactly. Yeah. You know, and it's not the closest water, so why I mean you've already talked about why it's special, but you know, it is kind of more logistically demanding to get down there. So can you talk about when you decided like, nope, it's worth it for me. This is what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Yeah. Um, a little backstory. So we actually growing up spent a lot of time in Steamboat, Colorado, both skiing and going there to camp. And I think it used to be a place that my parents wanted to, you know, maybe get a place there so we can, you know, vacation there as a family. And um back in I think 2013 or 14, my dad got his raft and went there to the Arkansas to learn how to row it, get it on the river, and he absolutely fell in love with it. So, and it's funny too, the guy he went down the river with was also a realtor, so it worked out, and my parents honestly just fell in love with it. They got a place down there. I'm very grateful um for it, and so we've been going down there since 2014, so I'm very lucky to have a place that I can go to and stay at while I'm down there.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Are they down there like full time? Um, pretty much is it like a vacation home or the vacation home that we're always at because it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly. They call me their squatter because I work remote and spend a lot of time there. But um they they they do split their time still, but they're mostly in Salida and plan on being there full-time very soon. And then I also want to move there full time myself. I um, you know, as much as I love Denver and loved growing up here, I'm not no longer, you know, I'm in my 30s. I'm no longer a city person. I don't care to be in a big city anymore. Not that Denver's that that big, but um it's pretty big.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

I mean, it's yeah, it's pretty big.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

I mean, yeah, so I would love to be there full time. It it is.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

It's not I mean, it's not like I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

It's not Chicago by any means, but sure.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

I agree. It's not like New York or LA or yeah, I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

But but it is, it's just not for me anymore, and so I would love to be in Salida full-time this year and trying to figure that out. But yeah, that's how we we kind of ended up going there as a family and just fell in love with it.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

Well, that's cool. So you have like kind of a place to go and stay and fish and uh and you can work down there too. So I'm excited for you. This sounds really exciting. Like we're just about to like be down there.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

I mean Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

You'll figure it out. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

And then you fish all the time. Let's talk about your father. And you mentioned that he's someone that got you started in fly fishing and early on. I'm a father of my son is ten, my daughter is four. I brought this up on the show before, but whenever I meet someone like you or talk to someone like you, I always I always have like these very selfish questions like what did he do? What how did he get her like so into this thing, right? Because and maybe it's just people, right? Maybe it's just that's the way McKenna's built, and maybe my daughter's built different, you know? I don't know. But what uh you know how has he kind of influenced your love of fly fishing, first of all? If that's a valid question. I mean I just want to know like what did he do, or how did you how did that relationship kind of foster this love of fly fishing? Was it just him taking you all the time? Was it him being a mentor and a teacher? Was it like just the opportunities that you had?

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Yeah, again, I think it's all of that plays into it. Again, we were very he and my mom always took me and my sister camping, and that's we did road trips growing up, and so again, I was very into the outdoors at an early age. And then, you know, my dad just especially once we started rafting in Salida and and going down the Arkansas, it became something for me where I was like, wow, this is so fun, and it's something that I can share with my dad and an activity that we can enjoy together. And yeah, I mean, he taught me everything I know about the sport from entomology to um different species of fish and casting techniques, you know. Um, he really has taught me everything I know, and I think I've still learned something from him every time I go out on the water with him. So I think it was definitely something that happened over time, but now that I'm an adult and can, you know, go on trips with him, it's so fun to be able to be like, heck yeah, like last year we went to Iceland together and we're gonna get to go again this year to fish for Atlantic salmon. And um, to be able to do those things with him are just special, and so I try to cherish it for as long as I can.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Okay, so I've been taking notes. Step one, take camping. Check. We're gonna do that. I'm on that. Step two, step two, get a boat. Uh just got a drift boat. I'm gonna take it on the green river. It's gonna be my it's gonna be my Arkansas River. I'm gonna take the Green River as my river for that.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, my um quick plug. My boyfriend is a whitewater rafting guide for oars out of Moab.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

So cool.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Um, he does like Cataract Canyon and Desolation, and he's on the Green River sometimes too.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

So um, we need to get him up on the Arkansas River.

SPEAKER_00 59:53

Oh, he's there. Trust me. He he he has his own raft as well.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

All right. Step three, teach fly fishing, all the intricacies. And then the advanced step four is go on trips, go on fly fishing trips. Yes. Um you mentioned that it was so fun when you got the boat. What was it that made it fun? Was it just being on the boat, the you know, camping? Was it the fishing? Was it just kind of like a super camping trip where you can it's like you're camping, but you're also on a boat. What was it that made it fun for you? Um you're 20 when this happened, right? So you're past you're you're you're I was 18 when you're still teenager, still teenager when this is happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Um, so I think it was just like the intensity of it, and obviously there were learning curves, and you know I definitely went through and I still do go through periods of time where I get really frustrated and my cast sucks, or I get tangled because you're floating down the river and it's intense. But I think just keeping in mind that you're not always gonna catch a fish, and and and it is an opportunity to learn something new. My dad instilled that in me. Um, and just being on the river is freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Like it is awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

Um having a, you know, we all we don't go, we always bring really good snacks.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

And okay, yeah, good snacks. I know that one by heart, though. I got that one down.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

We go we go hard with the food. Um and so I think when we first started floating the Arkansas, it was just fun for me to learn something and then to successfully connect with a fish after learning that um was really rewarding to me. And um yeah, something that has progressed with time.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Cool. No, that's cool. Does anything stand out in your brain as something that he's told you about fly fishing in particular, that is advice that you pass along to other people or um yeah, yeah, kind of most most used, most thought of, most passed along kind of advice that your father gave?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

Yeah, I and I don't think this is like some revelation, right? I think a lot of people talk about this, but when I do get frustrated and we're on the water together, he's usually like sit down and look around where we're at. Um, appreciate the scenery, appreciate the opportunity to get outside, appreciate you know your health and that you're able to do these things and get out here.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

Yeah, your knees are good, right? We're like on a second. Yeah, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

And so it's it's it's such a common thing, but it that's why it's called fishing and not catching. You're you're out there to enjoy what you're doing. I think it's really easy to get so focused on staring at one thing, but um, you know, he always tries to remind me like sit down, take a deep breath, look around, look at the scenery, look at the wildlife, um, especially when I get frustrated. So that's usually, you know, he's he's taught me about patience through fly fishing, which uh I've been able to use in other facets of my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Yeah, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

You have siblings?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

I do. I have a sister. Um, she loves going on the raft, and she's awesome. She's older than me, she's a few years older than me. Um definitely like, oh, I'll fish for 20 minutes and then I want to enjoy a cocktail. Um but she loves being outside as well. She's definitely not as insane about fishing as I am, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

Well, like I said before, everybody's different, right? And so some people, you know, just it hits them different than other people, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Yeah. It's the same with my mom. Yeah, she loves she loves going out on the boat with us, um, and is super fun to have on the water, but she's usually not the one fishing, she just likes to watch.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

Well, I guess we'll see how this all shakes out with my family, but it's exciting times. And yeah, I'm I'm on step uh, you know, I'm I'm following the steps. I'm pretty far along here, so we'll see how it goes. My daughter's pretty young still, so yeah. The boat The boat's big, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

The boat is a big thing. It's it's so fun. Yeah, I think so to be able to experience that as a family.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

All right. Do you want to share any of your more uh special trips that you've shared with your father, fly fishing, or kind of a memory? Could be a fish that you guys caught or a day on the water, but that's so hard to pick. Um, could be give me a couple. Give me it don't have to be it doesn't have to be long, could be just like and then this happened, and then that happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

Yeah, for sure. I think, like I said, we went to Iceland last May, um, which was insanely beautiful and cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

Whose idea was that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

My dad's.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

Okay. Hey, McKenna, guess what?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

You want to go to Iceland? And it's like, hell yeah. Um, but yeah, I think it was, you know, there was we're on this river, and you have to kind of fish it from a cliff, so we're above the river. It's called a Munich Bist, and you use the same flies that you would in Colorado, which is crazy to think about. But he had a squirm, a pink, hot pink squirmy wormy on and cast to the other side of the river. It's about the size of the Arkansas, and this massive brown trout eats his fly, and he's having to fight it from this cliff and walk down and you know, wrestle this 26, 27-inch brown with beautiful blue cheeks. I mean, it's the most beautiful brown trout I've ever seen, and we succeeded, you know, okay, we successfully landed it. It was just so cool to watch my dad do that, and then two, like we both caught our first Arctic char while we were there, sight fishing to them. I caught a really nice one, and it's just so fun to be able to cheer each other on um and enjoy that together. And then I think two, we just went to the Bahamas as a family, so everybody, yeah, instead of buying Christmas presents for each other, we pay our own way to um to a fun vacation. So this past um this past one was the Bahamas. We went to Exuma. And I've caught bone fish before, but I've never done DIY bone fishing. And you're kind of battling this the weather and the tide and you know, finding a good spot and being in the right place at the right time, and yeah, um, was able to connect with the with a few of my first DIY bones with my dad, which was very rewarding. And so that was That's awesome, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

You did it yourself. You're like, we're booking a family trip, we're going to the Bahamas. Like, yeah, did you bring your you brought your gear down there then, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

And and then how'd you start? How'd you start with the DIY? This is fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

He's done it before, so um it's good to have some expertise from him, but essentially just looking on Google Earth, finding different flats. We had rented a car so that we could drive around. Um yeah, I mean, it's pretty, it's you know, it it does take skill, but a lot of it is luck. I'm I'm sure you know with with saltwater fly fishing, whether you're going DIY or with a guide.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

Um I've never been to the salt.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Oh gosh, it's so it is so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:47

It's embarrassing. It's on the list.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

It's not that embarrassing at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

I think it's a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

No, you definitely gotta go. But the Bahamas is a great place to start. I caught my first bone fish in Belize. That's also a super family friendly place to go. Um beautiful and a wonderful bone fish fishery. Um, but yeah, I mean, to take it from the first step of building out my own leader. And tying on my knots, like learning from my dad how to tie blood knots, something as simple as that. That yeah, so I think it just started with building your own leader and can you know doing that with a blood knot and then picking out a fly and choosing a spot to go to. Maybe the fly you have on is too heavy and it's spooking the bone fish. Let's switch it up. Let's put on a smaller shrimp or a little crab. And then once you finally connect all the dots and connect with the bone fish on your own, it's so rewarding. And it was super fun to have my dad there hooting and hollering, like, don't let him go in the mangroves. Like it was a blast.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

Ah, that sounds like so much fun. And your whole family's there. So you can still come back and hang with your sister and your mom, and like every they're probably doing their thing, and yeah, everybody's having fun and having dinners together and drinks and beaches.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

I mean, yeah, exuma is a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:15

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

Yeah, I definitely there's a lot to do there for the family. Good food. The people are so friendly. We did do a couple guided days as well. Um, yeah. And and that was fun because it's the same thing as the Arkansas River. Like wade fishing is great, um, but there's so much more you can see from a boat and on a skiff, and you can go to different plots or or in mangroves that you wouldn't be able to access by foot. And it was it was great to meet some of the guides out there too. They're very appreciative of of the business. So um a little bit of DIY, a little bit of guiding. It was it was a wonderful place. I highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

How long did you go for?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

We were there for nine days, um, which is nice. I I worked a good time. Yeah, I work remote, so I was able to work a little bit. Um, you know, working from the beach with a pina colada, I'm not complaining.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

So what kind of work are you or do you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:13

I am in marketing, so I work for an agency called Backbone Media. Um, and I am on the affiliate marketing team. So I work with different outdoor brands and help them with their affiliate marketing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

Cool. Yeah, yeah. That's working out good for you then. Hopefully, you're down in the Arkansas River soon. I mean, I just this is super exciting. Exactly. I mean, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

I'll keep you posted, but that is full time.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

Uh I'm rooting for you. I think that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

Thank you. You'll have to you'll have to get the family out.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:46

Oh, yeah, yeah, that'll happen. Hopefully. We'll see. Uh I guess the last thing I would ask is do you have any like having gone through this experience where I mean m most of your fly fishing experience or kind of introduction to it or like initial journey, I would say, right? Not definitely not now, but even now, a lot of it is this relationship with your father. Uh do you have any advice for fathers out there that are, you know, want to spend time with their their girls in the outdoors?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:19

Yeah, I I think it's it can be a great way to to connect and and share a hobby together, like I've been talking about. And I think my biggest piece of advice is not to force it on them, but to you know, make it exciting for them, you know, guide them, let them ask questions, let them be curious. If they want to throw in the walk in the w a rock in the water or pick up a rock and want to play in the dirt over fishing, let them do that instead of getting frustrated, like, oh, you're spooking the fish, or you know, um, I think this is kind of a silly, I don't have kids, but I have a dog, and when I take him fishing with me, I try to remember that it's his experience too. Um, so if he gets excited about a stick or goes in the water before me, like um, I just let him do it because he's just trying to have fun, and I'm not relating anyone's kids to my dog, but I think No, yeah, the child dog comparison is valid.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:26

So it's a good comparison. Yeah, makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:29

It yeah, like I think you need to let them be curious about the outdoors first and the surroundings before, you know, really pushing fishing on them and let them figure out how they want to enjoy it themselves before, you know being too intense about it, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:49

That makes perfect sense. Yeah, that's good advice.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

Yeah, my dad was never like, oh, you're doing it wrong, or you know, um forcing it upon me. It just kind of came naturally because I found a love through the outdoors throughout my life because of him and my mom.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:06

That's wonderful and beautiful. That reminds me of a day I was fishing with my son uh on Decker's, actually. We were visiting family, and I was trying to teach him like about casting, you know, and you know, do this, do that, you know, like pause, you know, keep trying to watch it. Um you know, whatever. And then I I just kind of leave him and walk off a little bit on my own, and I just left him alone, right? Like I'm just and he was just casting like a fiend, you know, like doing great. And I was so embarrassed, like, dude, just leave your kid alone, man. Just like just chill out a little bit. Um, but I was like, I I mean it's obvious to me now because I think about even like if I'm playing catch with them or something, like I'm throwing the baseball. At some point, you just have to throw the baseball. Like you can't only tell someone to throw a baseball so many times. Like eventually they just have to keep throwing the baseball and they'll get better at it. Like you'll just have to keep taking them fishing, and eventually they'll get better at it. There's no like there's no amount of words that you can give someone to like just get them over that hump.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

Exactly. Some it's like with anything in life, you just kind of gotta make mistakes and figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

I think uh dad you can't will them to like it or will them to like do better at it. It's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:39

Let them get dirty, let them enjoy the water, let them spook the fish. It's you know, I always say relax, it's just fishing, it's not that serious.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:48

So agreed. I agree with that. McKenna, I'm gonna start wrapping it up. But before I ask you my last question, how can people find out more about you? Follow along your fly fishing journey, um, just see what you're up to or anything like that that you want to share, or if there's anything coming up that you're excited about that in the fishing space that you want to share with folks?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

Yeah, happy to. I think my main source of connecting with people is on my Instagram, which is Mac on the fly, M-A-C-K on the fly, all one word. Um I I love connecting with people and try to respond to as many messages and comments as I can. So um would love to connect with people if they have any questions or want to chat the sport, want to learn more about the Arkansas River Valley. I I I love talking about it, obviously. We've spent an hour doing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:44

Um it was great.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:46

Yeah, and then yeah, the Denver fly fishing shows this weekend. I'm super stoked for that to see some individuals in the space and in the industry. Um I work with Reddington and we will be working that booth. If anyone ever has gear questions or need recommendations, I'm more than happy to chat that too. And I think, yeah, just looking forward to warmer months and fishing dries consistently again. I I'm sure a lot of other people are as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:19

Yeah, I get excited for ski season around here, and I do get out in the winter and fish a little as well. Um, but I love when it warms up and fishing season. I mean, it's just a yeah, it's just uh like a rebirth, right? Like spring. It's just like, ah, this feels good, it's warm. But I'm usually excited when winter comes too, so I don't know. It's just living in the mountains, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:42

Each season as they come. Still some skiing left to do, which I'm excited about.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

But yeah, and that's cool. I mean, I've I've we talked about that in the beginning of the show, but I really do think that that is yeah, that's cool that you have conquered that at least in your own way. So good for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

Yeah, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:02

Okay, last question. You ready?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:05

Yes, I am ready.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:06

If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice. One more tactical, one more philosophical. What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:19

Tactical. Keep it at 10 and 2.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:23

Okay. That's good, simple advice. I like it. It's a good start to this answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:28

Yeah, keep it very simple. Just watch that rod tip, let the rod do the work, um, and wait on your back cast.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:38

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

Um, and then I would say philosophical, chill the heck out. Again, I think I had to learn a lot of patience over the years while I've been fly fishing, and um still have to remind myself that to this day sometimes. But if I could tell, you know, 17, 18-year-old McKenna anything, and tell her that it's all good. Chill out. Life is good. You're lucky to be out so outside and fishing, and it's not that serious. Just have fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:11

Okay, that's good advice. Both of them. Thank you. And thank you for being on the show, McKenna. I've had a great time talking to you. I love talking about Colorado. Like I said, the Arkansas awesome fishery, and I learned a ton about it. I know other people did as well. And like I said, man, I'm super excited for you, and I hope that it this works out for you, and you're able to move down there and transition from the city life to more country life. Just be surrounded. You don't have to make the drive all the time, man. You can just be right there. And that's really cool. So thank you for being on the show. I've had a blast.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:46

Yeah, of course. Likewise, thank you for having me and um definitely follow along. I'm I'm stoked to continue sharing my journey with fly fishing. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:01

Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthair.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.