WOT 238: Choosing Your River in Pennsylvania and the Pace of Wading with Bill Dell

In this episode we WadeOutThere with Bill Dell from Western Pennsylvania.  Bill grew up fishing the blue gill pond on his family’s farm in Pennsylvania as a boy, and continued to passionately fish through high school and college.  

It was his introduction to steelhead fishing in the Great Lakes that convinced him that his future was in fly fishing.  Bill takes an analytical mind to fly fishing.  Early on, he used his love of numbers to help him organize details about his time on the water, and develop systems for where and how to fish.  Bill also has a passion for photography and has been taking his camera with him in nature from the beginning.  

Today Bill continues his photography and interest in fly fishing tactics as a guide and contributor at Troutbitten. 

We discuss finding the small things that stand out in nature, how to methodically assess which river might be fishing best in Pennsylvania on any given day, and Bill’s thoughts on intentionality in the pace you take while wading a trout stream.

Learn More:

@billd328
Troutbitten.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

In this episode, we wait out there with Bill Dell from Western Pennsylvania. Bill grew up fishing the Bluegill Pond on his family's farm in Pennsylvania as a boy, and continued to passionately fish through his high school and college years. It was his introduction to steelhead fishing in the Great Lakes that convinced him that his future was in fly fishing. Bill takes an analytical mind to fly fishing. Early on, he used his love of numbers to help him organize details about his time on the water, and develop systems for where and how to fish. Bill also has a passion for photography, and has been taking his camera with him in nature from the beginning. Today, Bill continues his photography and interest in fly fishing tactics as a guide and contributor at Troutbitten and the Trout Bitten Podcast. We discuss finding the small things that stand out in nature and the river, how to methodically assess which river might be fishing best in Pennsylvania on any given day, and Bill's thoughts on intentionality in the pace you take while waiting a trout stream. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shemchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Bill. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Of course, I'm excited to talk to you. Pennsylvania is probably, you know, if not the most exciting or memorable fly fishing trip of my life. It's top three for sure. So Pennsylvania has always been uh a cool place uh in my mind, and then when I was able to get out there and fish, it's it's uh it would definitely delivered. And so I'm always excited to talk to people out there in Pennsylvania catching trout.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

One of the things I was excited to talk to you about is you know, I know that you've been fishing a long time, but also your photography is really compelling to me. And uh a lot of the scenery uh is I mean very good, but I love also how you capture some of the smaller things, you know, and particularly I mean I know it's a fishing show, we're going straight to birds, but I mean that's cool. I I liked I I really like that, man. I don't I wonder, can you talk a little bit about how you got started in fly fishing and photography kind of and how those kind of work together? And then I want to I want to follow up with some of this this bird photography. Yeah, these bird photographs I've been looking at.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

So I guess and I think I have probably the same story a lot of people do. Like I grew up, I literally have a farm pond in my backyard when I was a kid, and I grew up, and so I would go out um fishing, I don't know, pretty much daily as a kid. Um and so when my grandmother passed away six years ago, I bought the the farm like the farmhouse that it was on. And so I'm I moved back in, and so um I'm back to basically my parents lived next door to me, about 10 yards away, and so I'm back to that same you know pond, whether it's after work or something, if I need like a quick fishing fix. Um but that's cool, man. Yeah, so I grew up, I don't know, fishing, fishing for bass, catfish, um, pike, um, I don't know, basically anything that would eat a worm or a or a rapala.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

And did you when did you start fly fishing?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

So sometime I fly fished a little bit in high school and college, and then um I got into it. I I I was hooked on steelhead fishing, or well, I'll call them Lake Run rainbows to not affect not to offend the folks in the West as far as um Well, you're not offending me.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

So whatever whatever you want to call them is fine with me.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

But the uh the rainbows that run out of Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, I kind of got hooked on that in college. And so if me and a friend would go up there and fish, and I started to like notice, you know, some of these fly fishermen were catching more fish than us. And so I was like, okay, I need to look into this. And so um started to look into it. And at the time, my friend, my best friend in high school and still friend, um, John had moved to state college, and so he he had started to fly fish because it's you know excellent fly fishing in that area because you have all these hatches and limestone streams. And so we we started fishing once every May we would take off a week and a half and we would call it Fish Fest, and we would just fish every day for that, you know, for that week or whatever, you know, basically as long as his wife would have me until she kicked us out and was like, hey, you you know, okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

What was the shortest that you lasted?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Uh mostly a week. You know, I've I've I've learned that if you know, if you want to be able to go fishing with your friends, you have to be able to bribe their wives with something, whether it's, you know, you know, here's a gift certificate to Lowe's, or it's a significant other plays a s plays a significant role in the fly fishing. It does if you equation. My friend always said, you know, happy wife, happy life. And so, you know, if you're if you're aiding to that happiness, then you're you get a little bit more leeway in the ability to go fishing. Valid.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Started with Steelhead. That's interesting. So did you have to work backwards then? Because a lot of the streams you're fishing now are are much smaller. Yeah. I guess uh progression, or I mean, it's kind of the opposite that I would think, you know?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Yeah, and ironically, I started fly fishing and got into kind of the smaller streams because that's what I had available locally. And once I got hooked on that, I basically stopped going for Steelhead because it, you know, at that point in time, the crowd started to grow, yeah, um, popularity started to grow, and so I stopped going to those lake run tributaries and started fishing more remote streams where I'd be the only one I'd see all day.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Did you fly fish for the Lake Run rainbows and all that?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

I did for some time.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah. Um But that kind of was just like what led you into fly fishing more of the small streams, and then you kind of kind of that became the new the new thing for you.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, so I guess, you know, it kind of led me into I don't know, I s I we we just recently did a podcast for from the Trout Bit and stuff about you know what's your what type of species, you know, brook trout, brown trout, rainbow trout, and what's your favorite? And so mine has always been the brook trout because they are in remote places. They are the native trout species of Pennsylvania, and so um that's what I have most available to me locally.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

So you went with brook trout because they're native?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Well partly because they're native. Um cutthroat trout wasn't on the list though, was it? No, because we don't have any cutthroat in Alpha.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Because cutthroat's my that's my favorite, but it wouldn't be on your list. But uh it uh a lot of the reasons I like cutthroat are also because they're native.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Um and they take you to nice places.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

That's you know the sentimental and places physically and places mentally, you know, a lot of memories from my youth and childhood and and things like that, place times with my brother and my father, you know, it's all kind of connected to this fish, which is so weird, I guess, you know. But like when I catch a cutthroat, I I think about every time. Every single time I think about like being a little kid. Yeah, and that's like getting I'm always getting emotional thinking about like Yeah, and that's that's kind of catching a damn fish in a river, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

And that's kind of that was kind of the that was also cool, is because the the streams that I grew up fishing, and some of the streams I did trout fish as a kid a little bit, but you know, once the streams got low and clear around here with a spinning rod, I didn't do so well, or you know, I didn't I didn't have the right tactics to catch those fish.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Well you're deep in the tactics now.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

And so, you know, once I, you know, kind of got into the fly fishing and started to learn and experiment and experience things, and then you start to um you know grow as an angler, and then then I was able to return to some of the childhood places that I grew up fishing, and then I realized, oh, these, you know, some of these places actually have wild trout. But I as a kid, you don't, you know, I wasn't educated enough to know, hey, there, you know, it was like, hey, we're going to catch trout, and didn't really know.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

And you brought photography into your fly fishing experience when?

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Uh probably I don't know. As long as I can remember, when I've been fishing and outdoors, whether it's hiking or whatever, I've always taken a camera with me. Just uh I don't know. Uh um my friends always joke that if you know if you show Bill a picture of a stream, he can probably tell you where it's at in Pennsylvania. And so I don't know. In in my I can't say that I have a photographic memory, that that would be way too advanced. But um I guess when I remember things, I remember, you know, like snapshots in my mind of different places that I've seen and I've visited, and so um I like to create the same photos that you know you can look back. Um I have photo albums of film from oh boy, you know, the nineties that I have in like a photo album that you can look through and say, Oh, well, you know, and they're terrible pictures. I mean the fish, you know, the fish is on the bank or I'm squeezing the fish.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Right, yeah. I've got I've got I got my share of those as well there, Bill. I think everyone has a lot of people, anyone that was fishing like 25 years ago, probably.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

And so, you know, I've always you know, just to my my thought has always been I'd rather take a picture of the fish and release it so someone else has the opportunity to catch it and have that same experience I did. And so that was kind of my consolation prize, right? I'd take a picture of it, release it, um, or you know, you take a picture of a stream because um, you know, at the time I didn't realize these streams change drastically sometimes over the years where you're like, hey, you know, look at this, and they're like, well, that doesn't, you know, friends are like, Well, it doesn't look like that now. I'm like, Yeah, well, here's what it looked like, you know, 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Yeah, yeah, that's true. A lot of the photographs that I see, first of all, they're they're extremely beautiful. I mean, and they really capture from my limited, very limited experience in Pennsylvania. I mean, it really takes you back. I mean, it does capture it very well in the colors in the forests, and so I think it's really good photography, first of all. But also I'm curious what draws you to taking the pictures of the birds. And I promise to the listeners we're gonna this is leading somewhere, but uh but uh you know, because to me you take a picture of the river and it's beautiful, you take a picture of the forest, it's beautiful. And you know, when you when you take an when you take the time to catch a fish and take a picture of a fish or a close-up picture of a fish or like the birds in the forest, like that detail is something that I think is worth uh that attention to detail, I think, is worth kind of admiring and kind of reminding ourselves that that's a part of what you're doing when you're going out fly fishing. Does that make sense? Like it's it's it's not just the river and it's not even just the fish, but it's you know the colors or so when I see the birds, that to me that's a a symbol of that kind of like noticing things that as you're in the woods and on the river and fishing, that um I don't think everybody is having that same experience, and I think it's kind of something that is worth experiencing.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

I yeah, I agree with you a lot there. So I guess yeah, uh for when I first got into fishing, you know, you're kind of laser focused, like you're just looking at the water, right? You're looking at the next riffle, you're looking at the next pool, and you're fixated on okay, what am I gonna do here? And then I'm I I had a friend that was always like, Oh, well, there's this, you know, uh you know, look at the mountain behind, or you know, there's a lot more out there. And so the more the more I'm out there, I guess the more relaxed I get, and you're able to take the time to see everything else that's there, right? Like, I think some of it is just a comfort level. Like if you put someone in a new situation, it takes a while for them to become comfortable in that situation. Because if you're you know, if you're starting to fish for the first time and you weren't necessarily an outdoorsman and spent a lot of time outdoors, it's like a sensory overload when you st when you put your feet in the water and there's birds, like you said, when you don't hear the birds, all you think is like, I just want to catch a fish.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Right. And I want to catch fish too. I mean, I'm not I'm not saying I don't want to catch fish and I'm just wandering around the woods looking at birds. That's not what I'm saying. But I just think that uh those photographs, specifically when I was looking at these pictures of the birds, I'm like, you know, that's cool that he's taken the time to do that and look really close in at some of these things, and uh I think that that is an important part of my day when I'm fly fishing, if I can if I can get to that place.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah, I think one of my coolest moments last year fishing um was I had a a a fox come down streamside that was probably 15, 20 yards away from me, and it's like you know, it's the it's one of the top things that I really want to get a good photograph with. And so I had like basically the all-time worst lens I could have on my camera at that time at a 16 millimeter, which is extremely wide angle. Okay, and so I technically got a picture with a fox in it, but the fox came down to the river and it just hung out there probably for like 15 minutes and was just kind of scavenging along the bank and looking around, and I was like, man, that's like I couldn't tell you how many fish I caught that day, but to have that experience was way more memorable than it would have been if I caught, you know, another 10 fish. I'd rather see that fox.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

There are those days. There are those days that are they really are those days that it's like something happened where that made your day, you know, and it it wasn't it wasn't necessarily fishing. But we're gonna talk about fishing, and I I wanted to I want to talk about choosing where you fish and a little more about winter fishing, but since we're kind of talking about this already, the attention to detail, I thought we would stick with it. Are you cool if we stay here and then move on to some of that stuff in a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I guess I can I guess maybe one transition thing. I guess what I've found, um, I've really started like we were talking about like the birds, the wildlife. What I've kind of started to really think about is you know paying attention to that some of that stuff because you know fish are wildlife. And so if you start to pay attention to your entire surroundings, sometimes that'll help you.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Yeah, that's true. Uh Bill, you are a Troutbitten contributor, I should mention. I didn't mention that at the beginning. So you some of your photography is featured in TroutBitten, uh, the blog and podcasts and and YouTube channel and all that stuff. Uh and you also guide for them a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

As a contributor, uh, I looked this up and I I wonder if you mind if I read what it says about you under the contributors. Sure. Of TroutBitten. It says Bill is tactical on the water, but practical. He's a gear guy and a spreadsheet guy, and yet he might hit the water tomorrow with just a few flies. Two things. Okay. First of all, would you say that that is somewhat accurate, you know? Like 10% rule. Like it's fairly cheap.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Oh, it's it's probably way more than 10%. It's probably like 80%.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

So uh in my old line of work, it was like all had to be is 10% true, and then you could run with it. But all right, so and then my second thing that I wanted to say is some people like they they shy away from getting in the weeds and fishing, and and I understand that. I love the tactics side of it. I love learning and and I love the details and paying attention to them. And I guess I feel like I found uh you know someone who thinks of it in the same way a little bit, you know, with the details. How important are those uh details to you when you think about systems and planning your day? Like uh I guess did that always was that just your personality that you took into fly fishing, or did you develop that kind of as you saw better results as you started tracking things? So how does that make sense? Like did you have you know, did you just start out like, okay, I got my spreadsheet and I'm keeping track of things?

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah. Or did you so I started out, you know, being an IT dork. Um when I when I first started, I built like an application to enter the information into and then track it in an access database. And then over time I was like, this is this is way overblown. I just need to Well, okay. What goes into the spreadsheet? What is in the spreadsheet? So when I record stuff for a sp in the in the spreadsheet, I record basically the date that I went fishing, where I went fishing, um, how many fish I caught. Um Weather?

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Weather stuff?

SPEAKER_01 21:10

So when I first started, I really tracked all the like I tracked ever like if you I had probably had like 30 put 30 data points and tried to record every fly I caught every fish on. Like I was, you know, because I've been there.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Not in a spreadsheet, but in a journal had been.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah. And that's what a lot of people were putting it in a journal, and I was like, well, I can just put you know, I can just put this in a spreadsheet and then it can I can run, you know, technically you could run reports off of it and you know figure out what what to do next time out, right? Yeah um but I think it started out because I didn't know what I was doing, and I was like, okay, let me track this because you know human memory sucks if you truly try to remember like what did I catch this fish on, you know, five years ago.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And so I started tracking that just as, you know, let me keep track and let me try to learn from it and look back and say, okay, if I fished River X and it was at 150 CFS, I, you know, if I look at this, I always catch more fish than if I fish at a river and it's like 60 CFS.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

And so it was kind of, you know, over time I think we all become it's kind of learned, but it was like I needed that, I don't know, I guess I have like an analytical mind where it's like, okay, I need a little bit of evidence to back up like why I'm set why I think this.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Yeah, you need something, you need data, yeah, you need information, right? And I think it's wise to, you know, you can I don't know, I I feel like you can expedite that a little bit, you know, that experience and leverage that experience better if you if you track it a little bit in some way, even some tiny way. That's been my experience with a little bit of journaling that I've done and things like that. Plus, if you don't have something to observe, you don't know how to adjust, right? You don't know how to make an adjustment based on you're just kind of I went out, I fished, had good luck, you know. And it's hard to translate that to another experience or another day on the river. Yeah, and I think it is for me.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Maybe some people not and I think you talk about the details, and I think the details are important, and that's kind of talk a little bit about choosing where to fish. So if you if you look at the details around what happened, what what happened that day, and then what happened the previous day, and what has you know what changed in that, and try to figure out what why, you know, because you can have two days of fishing that you know from a from a real high level, one day is good, one day is bad, but everything else seemed to be the same. And so if you start to track some of that stuff and you know pay attention pay attention to the details, like was there a front coming in? Did the barometric pressure change?

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Um Alright, well let's go down that road then. What details Do you think get missed most often when you're looking at making a decision about where you want to go fishing in Pennsylvania? First, you're going to decide which river you're going to go to, then you're going to decide which section you're going to start at or maybe move to, and then what water type you're going to go to. So you have all these decisions to make. How do you go about breaking that down? What's the information that you use? So in an analytical way, like you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

So I guess at a high level, I think about the different like microclimates we have. So, you know, right now we have snow. And depending on how high an elevation or which areas you travel to in the state right now, there could be different uh amounts of snow. And the same thing goes in the spring. There could be different amounts of rain that's fallen the day before. And so for me, I'm looking at, you know, what are what are those gauges look like? And so when I state gauges, I mean like the USGS gauges. And so I'm saying, okay, well, you know, this stream is average flow, this stream is above average flow, and oh, this this river's blown out.

SPEAKER_03 25:27

When you say average, you just mean the the CFS number, not necessarily you know, average being like the even good flow, what you want. Yeah. Average is like just the basic good flow.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah. So like let's say if you if you look at the USGS gauge, it'll show you like an average. Like if I think there's like a triangle, if you actually go to the website, it'll have like a triangle for the average. Or what it what it is over the years. And so that's my first thing is okay, let me look at the gauges and then look look at where that river is and then what what what climate or like what's what what's the weather supposed to be like tomorrow? What was the weather yesterday? To me, I have to most places if I'm if I've been if I'm invested in the day and it's not just an hour or two, you know, on the water of I'm gonna fish six or eight hours, I want to put myself in the best place to be successful that day. And so what goes into that is if I'm looking maybe maybe on the western part of the state, we're supposed to get two inches of rain tomorrow, versus the central state, central part is only supposed to get a half an inch of rain. And so I may drive an extra hour or two hours to position myself in a river that has the best conditions for that day. And so, and it all what also goes into that is looking at the gauges. So if I look and see, okay, well, the gauges around here are high, and we're gonna get two inches of rain tomorrow, then that's gonna make things unfishable pretty quickly. Versus if there's a part in this, there's a place in the state that's, you know, let's say it's low, but it's gonna get a half inch of rain tomorrow, um, I would drive the extra 30, 40 hour, whatever, whatever it takes to for that day to position myself because I know I'll be able to fish longer and I'll have a better chance of success that day.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

So your target initially is you're trying to get to the river that you think is gonna have the most um quote quote uh best flows for um, you know, and I mean you it could be good with the flows high, it could be good with the flows low, but you're you're trying to get to that kind of optimal flows. This is the average, this is kind of where we want it to be. And then second step, sounds like what I'm hearing you say is now what what is going to affect that? Is it gonna be what like for me, where I'm at, you know we don't get a ton of rain out here, but we get snow, and especially in the spring, summer, I'm looking at the gauges, you know, I'm looking at CFS, but then I'm also looking at uh temperature and runoff and how much snow is gonna come down, where it's coming down, where creeks are gonna enter the different rivers at different places, because you know, it might be good in this one section of my home stream above you know East Canyon Creek, but below below the creek, it's gonna be what it's gonna be blown out because all that water's coming in.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

And that's kind of the next right, that's you're you're first you're thinking high level, right? Okay, I gotta pick my sh I've gotta pick my river. Then the next level is what section of the river do I want to fish? In exactly what you said, like you have to know where the the different um as water enters that whether it's a stream, a river, as water enters it from smaller streams, you know, it's gonna it rain, it's gonna impact that river. And so the best way, you know, this is where it's like you gotta have boots on the ground knowledge. You can't just say, oh, well, I'm gonna go fish River X because it has the best conditions. Like the next level is okay, I need to decide where where in that river can I put myself in a in the best situation to fish that day. To your like in Pennsylvania, we have different types of streams. So um we have tailwaters, we have freestone streams, and then we also have limestone streams, and so all of these influence differently. And then we also have um streams that may be more polluted because of acid mine drainage. And so, you know, if you're if you're looking to go fishing in May and you want to catch the best hatch, if you go fish a section that's where the stream where there's a tributary coming into that stream that's you know all polluted, it's gonna kill off the bug life. So that's not a good choice that day. I would choose to go somewhere else in a river system that doesn't necessarily have that pollution that would negatively affect what my goal is to catch fish when the when the when the bugs are hatching.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

So you're saying that the the rain in that more polluted river is gonna make it worse day by day kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 30:34

It well, it could.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Because I mean I'm thinking the river's polluted, it's probably it's probably shit year-round, you know. Like I well, on certain days, what makes it better than others?

SPEAKER_01 30:45

So here's here's where it can get tricky, right? Because in in certain and this is where you have to know your rivers and kind of you know spend time that let's say that spring that's coming out of there, maybe that stream's more polluted, maybe it's coming out of a sewage treatment plant. And so at certain times of the year, that could be a key spot where fish migrate to. Let's say it's in the winter time. Maybe that maybe that water is a more temperate temperature.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Oh, yeah, I've heard of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

And so the fish may migrate to that, even though the water quality is not good, the water temperature is higher, and so it produce you know, it's it it puts the fish in a more um friendly place to feed.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Yeah, v vegetation, things to for them to eat, temperature is gonna affect the food source and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

And so um versus, you know, if you're if if it's the summertime, same thing. Maybe that's maybe that maybe you're looking for places where the streams are coming in and they're dumping colder water because it's a smaller tributary, it comes off the side of a mountain, it's all shaded, and it all has, you know, a bunch of overhanging trees that keep that water temperature at, let's say, 62 degrees, and the main the main river is at you know sixty-eight degrees, and so the fish may move to that location because they know they it's approaching like a thermal refuge situation.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Limestone, freestone. We might have to edit this out, but what's the difference between limestone, freestone?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

So freestone are more like your mountainous streams.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

So um, you know, it's the only reason we would edit it out is just my ignorance. Leave this leave this one in there.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

And it's a fair question, right? Because I didn't I had no idea what the tech people were talking about when I first started. So there's there and this is why central Pennsylvania is more well known and famous because the limestone, the limestone the water kind of passes, you know, how do I explain this?

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Because to me, I I like limestone talks about the bottom of the river, right? So I would think you could have a tailwater that's a limestone and a free stone that's a limestone. So is that but that's not true, is it?

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Well, I mean, if you're technically damming up a limestone stream and you're you're you're creating a tailwater out of it, like tailwater, um when I'm talking about tailwater, I'm thinking more of like a bottom release, like coming out of a dam and staying like the White River.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Or um some of the other Yeah, the yeah, it's the bighorn, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

All those uh the Weaver, uh the Provo, you know, and so yeah, and so then you have different streams, like so um limestone is basically the the water stays more underground, and so it can come above ground and below ground.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

And so limestone springs or limestone seeps through those bigger rock formations and stuff, and so those streams tend to stay more moderate throughout the year. So in the summer they stay colder, in the winter they stay a little bit warmer, and you know, based on the amount of you know, freestone versus limestone, because around here you have or you know, around central Pennsylvania, some some of them are a mix where they're partial limestone, partial spring fed. And so those different that that limestone gives you a more moderate, and it all it's also very fertile. So we always you know the they talk about like the chalk streams and stuff in um over in England. Like they're in Pennsylvania we do have some chalk streams, and so where they're just you know it's just grass and it's the bottom is just all for the most part it's very sediment. And so we have kind of two flavors of limestone streams. We have like those chalk ones where they're you know mostly uh flat and just full of vegetation and versus you know, we have some limestone streams that um are look like a free stone stream, but but the water that's feeding them is actually limestone. And so in the springtime, a lot of times when we get higher water, what the we call it limestone green, or the streams get like almost like a chalkiness to them.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

When they're and that comes from basic the the water passing through the limestone and collecting some of that sediment, and it also makes them very fertile so that then you have more bug life.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Okay. So you're looking at the different water the different river types as well, and how that's gonna be affected. But it all kind of starts with the flows, and I want to go backwards a little bit. We go to we look at the flows, we look at what's gonna affect the flows, whether it's rain, whether it's runoff, whether it's um uh I don't know, what else can affect flows, you know? Uh like if people are letting water out of the tailwater, right? Exactly. Um things are gonna affect the flows and where so then where it's gonna affect those flows in different sections of the river. Um okay, so are we still on flows or what else are we looking at now as we move through the hierarchy of where we're gonna go fishing in Pennsylvania?

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Like you well, you talked about like the different streams that are entering. So um, and this kind of then plays into seasons, right? Based on the season, maybe if you go closer to the headwaters in the winter, some of the streams would be warmer. Um, or maybe So now we're going into temperature, yeah. Yeah, so kind of like uh Yeah. I'm I'm I guess in my mind I'm thinking, you know, now I'm thinking, okay, what what season is it? Right? Is it spring, fall, winter? Um, and then where where on a river system is the best place to be for that season?

SPEAKER_03 37:05

Okay. And how do you look at that? To me, I'm thinking temperature, but what else?

SPEAKER_01 37:10

It depends it it could it could be bugs. Um the hatches that we have across Pennsylvania, a lot of times they'll start lower in a stream and then they'll start to progress up the stream because you talked about temperature. Um so the lower the lower the stream is, the warmer it is, and so sometimes those bugs will start to hatch, you know, a week earlier at, you know, let's say mile twenty-seven of a stream versus mile two.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Based on water temperature.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

And um, okay. So we're looking at the flows, what's gonna affect the flows, where it's gonna affect the flows, what type of river it is, right? Tailwater, freestone, limestone, and then seasonally, you know, what's the best place to be on that river um that that river type based on where I mean temperatures one, it's gonna drive your hatches.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

In in many ways, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

And and the flow will will sometimes affect the weightability of a stream. So if you're let's say the river's running a h above average or you know, on the brink of being high, you don't want to be at the lowest point in that river.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Because you're not gonna be able to wade it. So maybe you're fishing, you know, middle point, or if it is really high, maybe you're fishing closer to the headwaters because you know the stream's smaller and it has less force, and so you're you're able to wade and fish more effectively there.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

How long does this take you? How how long as as long as it takes? Or what what's typical like sit down, I'm checking this stuff? Like what's your what's the investment that you think is is worth putting into picking where you're gonna go?

SPEAKER_01 38:55

I I guess the kind of the the prereq for this is to be able to fish all these rivers in all these situations to be able to then choose you know where to go. You kind of have to put in the legwork ahead of time to to learn all these systems and to learn where, you know, if I go to Stream A in January, you know, I've driven to streams and they've been frozen solid, and I'm like, okay, well, lesson learned. Not gonna do not doing that again, right? And so, you know, you kind of learn this stuff, you know, I've done that, yeah, through trial and error, and you're like, okay, well, learned that it's a good lesson. I won't be back here in January again unless it's 50 degrees.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

And so it drives it home too, right? It it's it it makes it stick with you, and it almost like applies to like you know, I have a similar experience where I I drove to a section that I thought was gonna be good, but it was too high and too cold, too late in the year, and you know, I I've I've buried that one away, like, okay, yeah, yeah, not gonna do that again. But also it cautioned me moving forward, it made me more aware moving forward, like, okay, think more about how high up you are in elevation, especially during these months, because you know, and not just because you there's gonna be ice in the water and your guides are gonna be freezing up and it's not gonna be super enjoyable, but also because they're it doesn't even have to be that extreme, but maybe the with the water temperature is going to be super cold, man. And if you just go a lower elevation, maybe you know it's the water temperature is more suitable.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Yeah, I think the optimal feeding temperature I think is somewhere around fifty-seven to fifty-eight degrees for drought. Um but I think what what the the temperature ranges I guess I'm looking to avoid is below thirty-eight degrees and anywhere above let's say sixty sixty-eight degrees, at least as a starting point.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Yeah. That's a controversial number there, Bill. But yeah, it is. Yeah. 68's a good safe number. That sounds good. Yeah. Um but yeah, like I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Yeah, I guess at least as a stuff as a starting point, right? I don't want to drive two hours to a river that's gonna be 68 degrees to start with the day. That's you know, it's gonna get above 70, and that's not that's not something I I'll fish 270. Well, I'll I'll be controversial there and say that I you know, I'll fish, I'll fish, you know, if I think the maximum temperature that day is gonna approach 70 degrees, but if I start the day at 70, I'm not gonna fish that stream because it's gonna get warmer. Right, right, right. I guess I'll I'll fish 70 degrees on the fall. Okay, you know, as it as if the temperature's gonna decrease. Okay. That's probably the best way to explain it.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

That's fair. I think even you know, going way back to you know, the river and the flows, I think about the I think about this a lot now when I even plan trips. When I think about how late in the year am I gonna be there, if it's a freestone and I'm going to Montana, you know, i the water there's a good chance water's gonna be low, temps are gonna be high, hoot owl laws, you know, now I can't even fish past a certain time, even if I wanted to, right? But not that I would. I'm just saying like that that that's not even in the picture. So um you gotta think about that when you're looking at where you're going on trips as well. Um so yeah, I think that's something that I have progressed in as a as someone who likes to go on trips with my family, uh fly fishing trips and stuff, is thinking about these types of things on uh and deciding like where I'm gonna go based on it. That's one of the things that's cool about I don't know, maybe not, but Pennsylvania to me, it seems like you know, I guess it's it's still it's affected by these things as well, you know?

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah, I would say if you're outside of winter, you know, there's enough small mountainous streams where you're, you know, if you if you're willing to fish, you know, a stream that's six feet wide and covered in, you know, half covered in rhododendrons, you know, you can be fishing after a hurricane comes through, you know, twelve hours later. Yeah. But your you know, your biggest fish that day is twelve inches, if you're, you know, yeah, as an immaculate fish versus, you know, the majority of your fish are gonna be five to six inch book trout, but you're still on the water, you're still out there, you know, climbing, climbing through the mountains and taking pictures of birds. Yep, having a good day.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Do you think of anything? So now is is there another layer now below temperature where you were the night before thinking, okay, I know I know the flows on this river are going to be good, I know this section, the temp the you know, on this type of river, that section, the flows will also be good and the and the temperatures would be good for the season. So it's not just temperatures, temperature of the season. Is there anything else now that you're kind of breaking down where I go fishing in Pennsylvania?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

The the last one is people. Is my you know when I go fishing, my goal is not to see another person. Okay. Because because then I get where this is because then I have, you know, I have, you know, f at least that's my goal. You know, there's there's there's always someone else out there that has the same mentality. And so, you know, when it comes to May in Pennsylvania, it's really popular, it's really busy, and so you know, the a river could be at its peak, optimal flow, optimal fishing, but I I may decide, well, I don't want to see another angler, and I'll go fish a stream that's less optimal just because you know, it next I guess the next the last level is what am I gonna enjoy the most for that day? Yeah, it is it gonna be spending the time, you know, hiking a mile in and fishing three miles and then hiking you know, four miles out and not seeing another person or pulling up and hopping out of the car and then seeing five other guys?

SPEAKER_03 45:15

I would add time available. I mean, you know, if I I can't drive all the way out to the Green River, maybe I'm gonna just fish around here, even though you know the the water flows are better one place or another, or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Yeah, that's you know, if it's if it's an afterwork thing, I only got three hours to fish or something like that. You you know, you're you're looking for that, you know, pull off that I can you know be in the river in you know 30 seconds after I got my waiters on, versus if I gotta walk, you know, 20 minutes into a spot, I can't necessarily do that when I have a limited amount of time.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

So is May like the primo month? Is that like I think it's hard to say the best month, right? Because totally depends. If I was gonna say what's the best month in Utah, that's a totally loaded question. But I guess it it sounds like there's a popular time in in Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

I would say I would say May is the most popular. I don't necessarily think it's the best time to catch fish. But I think it's the most popular, put it that way.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

So if people is on your is on your hierarchy of where to fish uh uh diagram, then that would be an avoidance. Okay, avoid that one maybe. All right. Cool. So I think that's great, man. We talked about the flows and all the different water types, temperature, people, experience. I think that's a good way to break it down where you're gonna go fishing.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Yeah, that's kind I don't know. Those are the kind of things that run through my head, and you know, I don't know. I'll look at, you know, you look at gauges and look at the weather on your phone. You know, we have all this technology now that you can do this so easily, where you know, when I was in high school, we didn't have cell phones, and so you kind of, you know, you had to watch Joe and Ardo on the weather channel.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Oh, when I was in high school, I had no concept of this stuff, man. Like I was not thinking about anything except like I'm just gonna go to this part of the river because whatever. This is just where I'm going.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

And you did you had to use a gazette, right? You know how to we had I had to use a we had me and my friend John would go fishing, and one of us would use the gazadter to navigate and the other one would drive. Like there wasn't a the gazetter? I mean, I don't know what a gazadter is. It's basically just a giant map that's like, you know, I don't know. I know what a giant map is. Two feet by three feet, and it had like, you know, the the one in Pennsylvania had like pages, and it was like, here's Westmoreland County, here's Fayette County.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

And so like you, you know, you use a highlighter and you highlight, and you're like, okay, we're gonna drive, you know, we're gonna drive this path to get here today. I love it. Where I always say, like, you know, Google Maps is like the biggest advancement in fishing because you can literally pick a stream and hit a button and then tell it to take you there. Where you know 30 years ago, you had to physically know how to use a map and navigate.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Well, and then there's the map where it's like it can only get you so close, right? They can't draw the lines small enough to get you to the place where you go. So then you're kind of out in no man's land, and then you're like, okay, can I get back to the map? You know, I'm off the map now.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah, yeah, like you're saying, like there's a couple like brook trout streams that have dirt roads that there's literally not a road on Google Maps, and so you know, th those are the real gems, right? You know, you can't spot burn that because you literally can't send a pin to that.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

Yeah. I like I like I like fishing places that are off the road. I just like being able to kind of like walk upstream and not be next to the road. Yeah. Um I don't it seems like there's a lot of those streams out west, but just because in the mountains, you know, there there's that's kind of this is the way that it the way that the river takes is kind of the easiest way to get from point A to point B, so that's where we're gonna put our roads, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Yeah. We have there's there's a there's a lot of streams like that in Pennsylvania. There's also a lot of a lot of dirt roads that follow some of our streams through like game lands, and so that's that's not as bad because usually they're not as popular roads, and so it gives you a nice easy path to walk back.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

I've I've known a couple people that have ditched bikes, right? Let's say you want to fish a small stream and fish like I don't know, four or five miles of it. And so if you ditch your bike and um at mile five and then you drive back to mile zero and then you fish up there, and most times if you fish up a stream, it's gonna be uphill, and then you hop on your bike, and then you're you know, maybe you cut your travel time in down because you're able to get on that bike.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Yeah, that's very interesting. I haven't done that. I haven't haven't gone out specifically with the bike, and although I just got into mountain biking, so maybe that's in the future for me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Or you could completely cheat and use one of those electric bikes, right?

SPEAKER_03 50:13

I have used one of those in my life. One time I did it. Uh, and I swear I would never do it, Bill. I was like, I'm not using an electric bike. Yeah, I was in uh New Zealand and Yeah, we were riding through like wine country and stuff, and it was these giant hills, and I was like, all right, I'll give the electric bike a try. I still got a good workout, but um I did feel like a cheater. I got to see more more vineyards though, you know, more stuff. That's cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

I they have there are advan there's definitely advantages. If somebody if someone said here, take this and you know, mount, you know, take this electric bike six miles back into fish, and it was all uphill, I might be like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:53

That's the thing, right? That like until they're like, Well, you're not gonna be able to see this stuff unless, you know. Um, okay. I think we've hit that pretty good. I want to move on a little bit to I want to stick a little bit with like the attention to detail, and you know, now you're on the water. Uh what are some things that you think uh as a guy who's you know, in the past, I'm not gonna hold this, I'm not gonna label you as a guy that uses spreadsheets, but you know, in the past you have done this, or you know, um the gear that you use, the information that you're observ like that you're taking in, the things you're observing, what are some details that you think once you're on the river or you're moving? Let's talk about like moving upstream or or downstream, but like moving along the river, the pace of that, what affects the pace, and what are the details that you think maybe get overlooked? Start with that.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

So I'm always if I fish with just about anybody, I'm always you know labeled as the fast guy.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

That's why I'm bringing this up, Bill.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

And so I guess in my mind, let's say you've got a river that's 15 miles long. Okay. So what what I'll often do is in the morning I'll fish faster and I'll try different tactics because it's data points. It comes down to being data points. I love this. Okay, I keep going. If you're if if you fish 30 yards of river all day, you're not gonna get a good picture of what's going on in that 15 miles of river because you know, a bear, a deer could have ran through the water, you know, before you got there and spooked the fish, and you might be trying to fish for fish that aren't even there. And or they're not feeding or my biggest focus point when I get to the river is determine what what water type are the fish going to feed in that day or that hour. And so I like to try to you know start out and move quickly and uh change, you know, often when I if I'm a first light, first light guy, so I like to be there, you know, if it's if if you can see your hand three feet in front of your face, you know, barely, that's when I like to start fishing most times. Okay. Um and so I'm starting with streamers most times, just to see it's it's it's fun. It's what it's probably it's my favorite tactic. Okay. And usually in that low light situation, if they're gonna eat streamers at all that day, most likely it's gonna be then.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Okay, because you're still in this kind of almost night kind of time where Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

And so I might fish, you know, 30 yards a river if I don't catch a fish, or I'll switch and maybe I'll go to nymphs, or maybe I'll go to dry dropper. Um and so I it depends, it kind of comes back to the season, like what the water temperature is. There's, you know.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

So as you're moving fast, you know, you say you're trying to uh experience the different water types of that river, right? For the season, try and figure out where the fish are gonna be feeding that day. Are you cumulatively keeping track of also like the tactics in those different water types? Or are you kind of um I'm gonna fish riffles with these three different tactics, or you know, you know what I mean? Like, do you kind of like bounce through it all, or you just kind of keep it going and keep track?

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Or it comes back a little bit to like knowing your river system and knowing the time of year it is. So let's say it's winter, I know that the fish are most likely gonna be in a little bit slower water in the winter. Okay. And so I may pick, I'm probably gonna pick a spot on the river to start that has optimal winter conditions based on the Okay. Yeah, the type of the river's the river structure. Sure. And so if I start out and I don't catch a fish, let's say in the first 15 or 20 minutes, in that it with tactic one, let's say that day it's I choose to make it streamers, I would say, okay, um this would be water that I think is, you know, basically a water. And I think that's gonna be the best chance. And if I don't catch a fish, then I'm immediately gonna switch to a different tactic. Tactic. And then I'm gonna and then I'm gonna switch and let's say I'm gonna throw nymphs, and then I'm gonna fish that for another 30 or 40 yards. And then I'm saying, okay, now I have I've covered at that point, let's say 100 yards of river, and it's I don't know, let's say an hour into the day. It didn't it, and this also depends on how big the stream is. Yeah, let's assume the stream is 40 feet wide.

SPEAKER_03 55:52

No, I get what you're saying. You're saying I'm I'm gonna find the optimum water and I'm gonna fish it hard with different tactics because this is where the water the this is the water I should be fishing. Yeah. They might be eating different things, but this is where they should be eating.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Yeah. And so based on, you know, experience throughout the years, I'm gonna say, okay, I, you know, I think the fish should be eating this tactic, whether it's tactic one or tactic two. And, you know, if I find what tactic that is, and I say, okay, well, they're eating in, you know, let's say they're eating at the heads of the heads of the runs, right? And it's it's May, because that's where the bugs are. And so I may ignore everything else in the river and only fish the heads of the runs. And then basically I'm looking for that optimal spot, and then I'm ignoring everything else.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

And that's why it seems like you're moving fast because you've got to hit all these heads of the runs.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Yeah, because I'm not uh at that point, if if my goal for that day is, you know, let's say my legs are good and everyone's gonna spry.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

We're both 45 years old, man. You look good.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Yeah, and so I'm saying, okay, I'm gonna if I'm if my goal for that day is to catch the most fish, yeah, I'm gonna hit every one of the we call it cherry picking, right? So you're gonna say, okay, I'm I'm gonna now cherry pick for, you know, and again, that and that's kind of why I look for spots and locations where I hope I won't run into another angler. Yeah. So it gives me that bandwidth to experiment and cover water and quickly determine, okay, what are the fish on?

SPEAKER_03 57:33

God, it's so hard to pass up fishy water though, you know. Like for me, I love this. It's so tough. Like, how do you how do you just go by that seam and and like, yeah, I'm not gonna fish there.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

I'm just gonna I have I guess we talk about like we I think we had a podcast and we talked about like basically the you know how how to approach a river, you know, you have your A water, your B water, your C water. Okay, and I have a tactic that I call you know full full coverage fast. And it's basically where you're you're covering the whole ri you know, you're covering side to side, but you maybe you're only putting three to five cast in that. And so, you know, you're you know, let's say yeah I've determined I've determined they're in, you know, a certain specific water type. And so let's say I'm consistently catching a fish every 15 minutes, and so then I'm I realize, okay, well, let's say 10 o'clock rolls around and and it completely shuts down, and I haven't caught a fish in the last 30 minutes. Okay. And I'm like, okay, well, now I need to change, I need to reevaluate because something changed. And what like it's if you think about it, like I always say, like, think about it more high level, right? What's happening in this environment that you're in? What has changed? Okay. So maybe it's the sun. Maybe at this point, the sun has peaked over the trees now, and so the fish have now shut down because it's the sun. So I could I would say, okay, I need to either change my flies, maybe put more flashier stuff on that catches the sunlight, and so I might try that for a little bit. And if that doesn't work, then I say, okay, I'm gonna abandon this stretch of river, and I may move to another stretch of river that has more shade and more cover. Because if the sun's up, I want to be in a section of the river where it has the most shade available.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Yeah. It's nice to have a when you say higher level, it's nice to have like a I have like this mantra that I kind of go through weather, wind, sun, moon, shadows, temperature. Uh yeah. Sun, moon is kind of the same thing, and this is a holdover from from flying airplanes and targets and things. But it works. It works for fishing too. I mean, because it does. It's a way for me to be like, okay, what's different with the weather? Is it, you know, is it is getting cloudy? Is it getting sunny? Um getting colder. Like, what's the weather? General, general weather, kind of clouds, things like that. Wind, is it blowing the bugs around? Is it uh affecting hatches? Um sun, like you're talking about, shadows that are caused by that, and temperature, is the temperature changing, like different times of the day, the water is changing temperatures, are they moving to different water types? And it just grounds me and gives me something to be like when I'm in that spot when you're like, What what's changed? Something has changed. Yeah, it gives me like a flow to kind of go through.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

No, that's a good check, good little mental checklist. I now we talk about the birds and stuff. I've started, you know, paying attention to some of that stuff because you know, I'm like, oh, I hear this bird and I know what it is, you know, because I've you know I basically used Merlin to cheat and try to try to learn what the different birds, the sounds they make.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Are you a birder? Like are you birding? Because birding is a thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

And yeah, I would say, yeah, part. I I guess, yeah, I guess I've been bitten by the bug. I think it's cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:13

I'm not I mean, but I mean you know, I mean the the pictures of these birds are like they're they're like really beautiful and thank you. I think that it's a really I really meant it when we started talking. I think it's a really cool it's almost like a you know, like a metaphor for fishing and the way that you're you're looking at fish and this kind of part of the the river versus the birds are part of the forest kind of thing. And we're releasing them anyway, so we're really just trying to catch a glimpse of this close-up creature. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

I call catch and like I also like take pictures of deer and turkey and wildlife and so I call I I also call it like catch and release hunting, right? Because you're just shooting camera. Right. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

I love it. I've never heard that, Bill. That is that's perfect. Catch and release hunting.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Yeah. But and that's what I feel like I'm doing with foxes. I've been trying to find like foxes and owls to take pictures of. That's my goal for this year.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

Owls, that's cool, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

And so, yeah, they're not they're both nocturnal, which makes them a little harder to get, you know, decent.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

So we should talk to uh Derek DeYoung. I don't know if you could find him, but he's an artist, a fly fishing artist, and he has tons of photographs and paintings of owls. Nice. Uh I don't I haven't talked to him about that specifically, but I know he he captures a lot of it in his art and photography.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

But but I guess like we talk about like paying attention to like your surroundings. Yeah. And so I guess what I've I have a bird feeder out back, and so I've started to pay attention. Like when I leave and it's daylight out, if I look at the bird feeders or if I'm on a river and I hear a lot of birds and I see a lot of birds, birds are wildlife, fish are wildlife. And so I I think there's some correlation there that if one is active, the other one is going to be active.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:06

Okay, thank you. Because I I I've never heard it explained this way, but keep going. Because to me, like birds, people are like, oh yeah, I look at the birds, like observe. And what should I observe? You know, oh well, Jason, you should observe the birds. Like, okay. I mean, I can see there's birds, I see they're eating bugs, I know there's bugs here. I don't necessarily need birds to show me that there's bugs here, and you know, it doesn't help me necessarily catch a fish.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

But but if you think about your day, like I don't maybe in I guess I'm I'm biased to Pennsylvania because I've lived here, but if you think about your you know, the morning, like you're getting there at first light, and then the woods is slowly coming alive. Yeah and then maybe somewhere between 7 and 9 p.m. is like the peak of you know, maybe the the birds being out there and being active. And the same thing with you know, you're a lot of the deer movement, a lot of a lot of the wildlife is very active at that first light situation. And so fish are wildlife too. And so to me it makes sense that that's when they're going to be most active. And so for me, that's when I always try to plan to be on the river, at least in a let's say in a springtime situation.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:24

Yeah, and I mean that's a tried and true through the ages. Your grandpa told you, you know, in the morning is a good time to be fishing, right? I mean, that's just in the evening, in the morning, it's better than high noon, usually you know typically, like not all the time, but typically those are better times to be f be fly fishing on the river.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

But yeah, I think you know, if I if I'm looking around and it's like you know, a dead sky where there's no birds, I'm not hearing anything, I'm not catching any fish, then I might say, okay, I need to I need to re-evaluate the choice I made today. I chose wrong, right? I I need to, you know, maybe I need to go to a different stream that day because I fished for two hours, I didn't catch a fish, I didn't hear or see any wildlife, you know, there's something going on, and I need to relocate because I think um maybe if I move across the ridge or move, you know, drive another 30 minutes somewhere if I have that time that day, yeah. Maybe, like you said, maybe I'm too high in elevation that day. Maybe I come down and then you know, and maybe I'm driving along and then you're paying attention to what you're seeing. Oh, I start to see birds, or I start to see deer out in the field. Okay, well now this is a better climate to be fishing in.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

What's interesting to me about this conversation and about the way that you like to fish the river and the pace that you take, and but also the importance that you place on attention to detail is you know, they're almost at odds with each other. Like I'm going really fast. If I'm moving quickly, well, are you paying attention to the details? You know, like to me in my brain, I'm thinking I'm better at doing this, all these things that we're talking about when I slow down. When I when I am deliberate with my thoughts before my actions on the river. Um it's not a spear. I I mean, I'm just saying, like, you know, I I feel like you have this thought through. What's your what's your take on on that? You know, you've obviously thought about this before.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:34

Yeah. So I would say, you know, for as far as like wildlife and stuff, a lot of times you can hear it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

And then you're you're watching your cider, you're watching your fly, you're watching your indicator, and so it's a different sensory, right? You're you're your eye your eyes are doing one thing and you're and so it's kind of like multitasking, right? You're you're listening and you're also um kind of watching. And I think some of it comes down to are you know if if you're not getting the results that you expect quickly with fishing, yeah, then I start to pay more attention to the surroundings because it it, you know, maybe maybe I'm zeroed in for that first 30 minutes on just trying to fish.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:25

Well, I think about it in terms of situational awareness and the two ways that you can have situational awareness or or build situational awareness is the easy way is through experience. You kind of know things. The other way is and you get situational awareness from like you're saying, the different sounds you're hearing, the sights you're seeing, the smells you you're you're taking in, all these things are giving you as a awareness about what's going on in the river. But the other way is by planning. And you know, if you've thought about this ahead of time, and not just like where am I gonna fish today, yeah, but you've put a tremendous amount of thought into the way that you're gonna go fish. It's not like you're it's not just random the way that. you're moving along the river. Even though you know, even if does that make sense? The pace is intentional. Yeah. And it's meant to serve a purpose.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Yeah. And so let's say, you know, and it's not always that pace, right? There, you know, after that, you know, I try to move at a faster pace at like I said, to start the day to try to, you know, get data points.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:37

Plus if you're fishing with other people now you're now you're out by yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

Yeah. I mean I'll fish, you know, I'll I'll high hold Dom all day. I'm good with that. But um you know um it just you know I it's like a you you know you gotta check check yourself too because if you're if you're three hours into the day and you're doing the same thing and you're there's you're not getting any any feedback or any you're not catching any fish. Yeah um you gotta switch something. And so you have to you kind of have to self I don't know so you have to have self-awareness to basically I I think the worst thing we can do in fishing is to kind of go through the motions.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:24

Yeah that's what I'm saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

Like you gotta like it you have to like you're saying you have to you can you can fish a certain way whether it's fast or slow or whatever but you have to do it with intentions and you have to understand that if it's not working you have to make changes.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:39

I think that that is Yeah that's brilliant because you can equally not pay attention and fish slow. Right. I mean I'm I'm guilty of that for sure. I've fished slow all day long and just not even you know I've been like not been thinking critically not been paying attention to the weather not not making decisions um and it had nothing to do with the pace I was fishing. It had to do with my mindset and the way that I was approaching the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:08

Yeah and we all have bad days of work or whatever and there's times that we want we go out fishing where all we want to do is just go out and stand in the river and we don't care about catching fish that day. It does come down to like what do you want to experience on the river that day. Is it going to be catching the most fish or are you just cool with you know chilling out and hanging out with your you know there's days that I go fishing with my friends and those are the days I'm not looking to catch the most fish.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:32

I'm looking to spend time with my friend on the river and BS and unless I want outfit unless unless it's you know unless it's like a good friend that you know you want to outfish or you know want to give crap and of course uh let's go down that road tell me a story Bill tell me about uh an experience that you had uh if you could tie it you know into kind of what we've been talking about with like the weather um and the planning and picking the river to fish but a story about a fish that you caught or maybe one that got away that stands out to you as uh particularly memorable I'm trying to think doesn't have to be I'm not looking for the biggest fish story I'm just so I would say the the the the probably the the fish that most resonates with me this probably this past year was um there was a brook trout stream that I had fished um once and I caught a couple fish out of it and um I looked on a map and I fished the tributary of it and I caught some fish out of it and I was like well let me let me go back and revisit this stream.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:39

Okay. And I decided okay well I'm gonna hike basically as far down as I can and so I hiked uh let's say I let's say I hiked 30 minutes before I even started fishing. And so it wasn't it wasn't a smooth trail it wasn't a road it was literally walking through the woods around road dendrum um we call them jagger bushes that's a that's a yinzer term or bait briar bushes.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:05

I know yinzer now we talked about that before the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:07

Yes and so um I hiked down into this you know this stream and I was I was excited because I and it was like a it was like a first light situation because um I had tried to do this about three weeks before and I showed up and there was a truck there already and I was like okay like my rule is if I go to a stream that's a small stream um and it's let's say less than 15 foot wide and there's another guy there tipping my hat and say okay you know you get that spot today like I wouldn't want somebody to walk in and ruin my day so I'm not gonna do the same to you and so I came back a couple weeks later um did this hike in uh started to fish and caught a fish within like the first 10 minutes it was a nice like six or seven inch brook trout beautiful colors on it and so continued to fish up the stream and caught some other nice nice fish um and then um I got to run and I had I had thrown in a few times and I'm like I'm like that looks like a good spot and I was fishing dry dropper with just you know a elk hair caddis and a green weenie and so I was like well I'm like that looks like it's gonna that looks like it should have a you know a little bit better fish and so I took off the caddis and I put on a stone fly and I threw it up and let it come through this run and the fish ate it and I set the hook and this fish come out of the water and I was like holy crap because I was expecting you know five or six inch fish and ended up catching a 12 and a half 12 and a half inch brook trout which is like enormous for our our area of the yeah for brook trout. That's cool. I mean that's a nice fish anywhere that's a pounder right yeah that's a pounder and so I for brook trout you know most brook trout we catch around here you know you take them put them in your hand and they might be you know three quarters and so they're pretty though uh yeah but the the bigger ones you know uh I I say you know it's a two-hander because it you know it takes two you know you got to take two hands to hold that fish together. I'll hold it up.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:13

Okay, cool. I want to start wrapping this part up before we end the show though I want to go through some tactics questions. Kind of a little bit of a lightning round questions. You can take your time or you can go through quick you know there's no rules here but just some questions that are a little more tactical and just want to get your take on some of these things. Are you ready? Sure. Fire away all right I think I know this already based on our conversation but what do you change first when you're not catching fish?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:44

The water I'm fishing. Okay. That's a good or or I should maybe I should say the water type I'm fishing.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:50

Yep all right uh what do you uh think is most underappreciated in fly selection That's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:59

Um underappreciated I would say in I'll p I'll pick on some people but in today's world I think it's like the taper of the flies. I feel like I see a lot of flies that have a couple wraps of dubbing and a couple a couple things of flash and then they've got a bead on it that's like let's say 60% of the fly.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

And so I don't know. I guess maybe I'm a little old school where I think a fly should have a taper, right? It should be thin at the majority of them should be thin at the tail and you know progress into you know looking like the head of a nymph.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:37

I don't think that's old school.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

I think that's a legitimate uh maybe I should say it's more naturalist approach. A naturalist approach to flies okay more natural tapered okay but I do fish some garbage flies that fish eat so you know talking out of both sides of my mouth.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:53

That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:54

What's the most obvious observation that you think that uh people don't pay attention to true accuracy in your f landing of the fly um so I've done some guiding and so what I consider close to the bank and what the average person seems to think is close to the bank are two different things. So I say I say if you're gonna if when I say put it on the bank, I mean like the if you're fishing a s a streamer that has marabou on the back of the tail the the marabou should land on the dirt and then the fly should land in the river.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

Credit card credit card close.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:36

Yes yeah that's a yeah that's a that's a good term I haven't heard that one.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:39

I learned that from uh Jenny West out in Montana had her on the show and she's like close close credit card close yeah that's a good way to put it yeah it yeah you gotta there should be there you shouldn't even be space for a credit card. There you go. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

What's the least obvious thing that you uh least obvious observation that you think people don't pay attention to the least obvious so something that you think is important but most but people don't pay attention to it you know angles so when you're casting and you're presenting the fly um just the angle that you are to the where where your fly lands and where you're trying to present it to the fish um if you're not in a good angle to to present the fly and to set the hook you're not gonna I it's not you're not gonna get the right drift excuse me. Um you're not gonna get the right drift or the right presentation. I think it's I think it's I I see a lot of people that don't approach a s like if if you say okay go fish this spot you know the way they approach it I think you could you could tell some tell somebody to tell five people to fish the same spot and they may approach it completely different.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:01

Yeah. No that's a good one. I think that's I I I agree with that. I think that you can do a lot with casting but it's much easier to fix some of those problems with angles. You know?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:14

Yeah yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:15

And it's it's just kind of simpler and for someone who's I mean I I'm not saying don't work on casting or casting's not important or you know I think those things are important but I do think that they get over leveraged sometimes in the conversation. That's my take what's your most underappreciated piece of kit uh and why is that so important to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:39

Kit what do you mean by gear? Oh gear. I guess what what I think is that I own is the most underappreciated. Something that you have that yeah that is just like really important to you that is kind of underappreciated you think that people um like for me um like you might say uh I don't know that's a good question Jason uh for me I would say probably the most underappreciated piece of gear or kit that I have is um a good net maybe I mean I've lost a lot of fish until I had a nice net you know yeah that's a off the top of my head I could probably think of something better but you can um I would say the probably I don't know I g maybe it's not under I guess the the biggest thing I rely on when I'm on the river is probably have a fish pond waterproof pack that like they have like a s they came out with a smaller version of it that I think is I forget I think the first one was 10 liters but basically this is it's a smaller waterproof waste pack and I I use that every day on the water because that's what I keep my camera in.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:57

And so like that is that waterproof thing is important to you because of the camera. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:02

Yeah because if you don't want to if you happen to fall in or if you happen if it's raining yeah like and you don't want a a nice camera to get exposed to to water. Water and cameras don't mix very well.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:15

Okay. I'm gonna re can I can I uh redo my answer Bill yeah yeah what's your reason because I don't think that was very good actually it's terrible but uh I like uh the fly the lanyard that I have like with the little fly box I like having everything right there I know there's lots of ways to do it um but I use a hit pack a lot of times or um and uh I like having things really quick and easy accessible there so my lanyard that I use I'm a lanyard fan I know we talk about like so you're a hit pack lanyard guy yeah so I I keep the camera in the hit pack and then I keep it but it depends on the time of year.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:56

I feel like and I'm I'm terrible when we talk about gear I like to experiment I guess that's my other we'll call it hobby is to uh basically try to come up with a better solution of how to carry all my crap out in the out in the wild and a lot of times I come back to the lanyard and then I have um kind of have two setups. I have the mountain stream where I'm gonna hike and I think um it's just a lanyard and a couple things to tip it and it's got a couple flies on it maybe 30 flies on it and then I'm ready to go because I'd rather have mobility at that point if I'm hiking three or four miles. What is the most important habit that you think you've developed when it comes to presenting flies I would say thinking before I present the fly so I feel like back to like the covering a lot of water um one bad cast can ruin a run. So a I may I may fish fast but the reason I fished I I can fish fast is because my cast my first cast is always very measured when I when I come to a spot.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:16

So that habit of making that first cast count and that and making that presentation as best you can is like the first impression kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:25

Yeah like so I'll like I guess you know you and it comes it becomes habit like when you in familiarity of a river like if you get to a spot and you look at it you know I may remember the last time I fished this run there was a better fish at the top of it or maybe there's a better fish at the back of it. And some of that memory helps me determine the next time I come through there where do I want to land that cast the first one because the f in my opinion the first cast is always the important.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:58

Okay. Last lightning round question okay uh what's the most important habit that you think you've developed in fighting fish get close to the fish as fast as you can so get it close.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:13

Like well I well I should say you get close to the fish if you can. When you hook a fish I feel like the worst thing you can do is keep your feet like don't pre- your feet aren't in quicksand unless you know if you're fishing a river that's you know two three feet wide or or two or three feet deep sorry um you have the ability to get to for you to move closer to that fish. And so I uh when I hook a bigger fish that I really want to get in I rem the last really big fish I caught um I hooked hooked it and landed it in probably 30 seconds and my buddy Paul was like boy you wanted to really get that fish and I was like it was a huge fish because I literally hooked it it it got downstream of me a little bit and it started to barrel roll and I literally sprinted to it and put it in the net.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:06

Yeah it's shock scares him it's just shock that what's this guy doing okay I guess I'll just roll over in the net here I didn't wasn't expecting this I thought I had another like 20 seconds.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

Yeah Trevor was making fun of me I did that once with him and he was like you just like he's like I think you scared that fish and I was like well that's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:23

Yeah I know I'll do that too man especially if I feel like I got my in a bad spot and I'm like the clock is ticking dude I'm just let's get let's get going. Let's get the fish in the net here if I have to just get out there and put it in the net whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:36

Yeah or if you hook it between you and the log jam like I'm running in front of that log jam and trying to get the fish to run upstream somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:43

Yeah. Alright uh Bill I want to start wrapping it up I appreciate all your time today. Is there anything I'm missing that we didn't talk about with like either the pace you know I want to give you the last word on is there anything that you know you really think people need to to think about when it comes to choosing where they fish or you know adjusting the pace that they fish at that we haven't covered?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:08

No I think that's good. The only thing I would add is you know across across everything right now there's there's added angler pressure and so I think just talk to each other and try to do try to spend time on the water um respect respectfully of other anglers and you know if you get to a parking lot and there's three or four people there have the conversation where do you want to fish or you know you were here first what do you want to fish and um yeah I think that'll resolve a lot of I don't know on stream conflicts or you know the last thing you want to do is two people end up fishing the same spot and there's four miles of river but you both walked into the same spot when you were there the first time so I don't know it's it's kind of a new thing that I've started to do and um if you get to the river try to have a conversation if someone else is in the parking lot with you just to not that you're trying to steal their spot you know hey I'm you know I want to avoid where you're fishing so that we can both have a good day on the water.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:11

Yeah just being neighborly that sounds reasonable. Alright Bill before I ask you my last question how can people see some of your photography find out more about you or just uh if there's anything exciting going on in your fly fishing life coming up that you want to share?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:28

Um I would say if you want uh the biggest the biggest way to get in touch with me is probably Instagram or Facebook. Um what's my my Instagram handle is uh Bill D328. Um but that's and then also Trout bitten Trout Bitten um if you're interested in some of the stuff I talk about we talk about a lot of the stuff on the podcast for Trout Bitten so tune in and listen to the Trout Bitten podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:55

Alright we'll link to that stuff in the show notes so people can find out and see your photography and and um and see your interactions with Trout bitten and all that. Last question are you ready?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:07

Sure. If you could go back to when you first started fly fishing and give yourself two pieces of advice one more tactical and one more philosophical what would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher um I would say one thing is to enjoy time on the water and not be worried about catching fish um at least to start with is just to kind of absorb and to try to um pay more attention to the details we talked a lot about the details here I feel like when I first started it was just like I want to catch I want to go I want to you know and so I think paying more attention to the surroundings will help a lot of that um tactical I wish I could go back and tell myself not to buy the dozens of packs and vests that I have over the years and just you know settle on one because it would have saved me a lot of money and uh hassle.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:10

You're not the only one that that's affected but that's good advice Bill and I appreciate it and I appreciate all the things you shared today on the show. Really enjoyed talking with you man and uh I like your approach to it. I like I like the way that you are out there in Pennsylvania fishing. So thanks for being on the show man and uh look forward to hearing more from you and uh trout bin in the future.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:31

Alright thanks for having me really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:38

Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at waitoutthere.com if you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey please subscribe and share. Until next time Wade Out There