The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 243: Alex Emery - Part 1. Tactics for Tackling Spring Run Off on Freestones
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In this episode we WadeOutThere for Part 1 of our conversation with Alex Emery, from Livingston, Montana. Alex started fly fishing as a child with his father in New Jersey and continued during school at West Virginia University, becoming involved with the fly fishing club as well.
After college, Alex’s search to continue his passion for fly fishing, and build a life and career connected to the outdoors brought him to Sweetwater Travel Company Guide School, on the Bighorn River, in Montana. Alex went on to become a guide on the Yellowstone River and surrounding area for over eight years. Alex has been a guest on the podcast before. Since the last time we talked, he's started his own outfitter, Livingston Trout Guides.
We discuss fly fishing before, during, and after spring run off on the Yellowstone River and freestone rivers in general.
Learn More:
LivingstonTroutGuides.com
Instagram: @flieronthemountain
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In this episode, we wait out there for part one of our conversation with Alex Emery from Livingston, Montana. Alex started fly fishing as a child with his father in New Jersey and continued during school at West Virginia University, becoming involved with the fly fishing club as well. After college, Alex's search to continue his passion for fly fishing and build a life and career connected to the outdoors brought him to Sweetwater Travel Company Guide School on the Bighorn River in Montana. Alex went on to become a guide on the Yellowstone River and surrounding area for over eight years. Alex has also been a guest on the podcast before. Since the last time we talked, Alex has started his own outfitter, Livingston Trout Guides. We discussed fly fishing before, during, and after spring runoff on the Yellowstone River and Freestone Rivers in general. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shepchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Alex. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Jason. Appreciate you having me back.
SPEAKER_02Yes, welcome back, I should have said. Welcome back to the podcast. It's been a while.
SPEAKER_00Yes, sir, it has. You said two and a half years. I would have never guessed that, though.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, December 2022, episode 123. Which numbers. It's crazy, man. Yeah, that's a long time ago. Uh two and a half years. I live in Utah. Yeah, dude. I think when I talked to you first.
SPEAKER_00What episode number are you at now?
SPEAKER_02Um shoot. I think I'm like 240 or 243 or somewhere in the somewhere up around 240-ish, somewhere in there. Yeah, it's been good. I still enjoy it. So uh because I get to meet cool folks like you, man. And um I will come up there to fish for sure.
SPEAKER_00I'll hold you to it.
SPEAKER_02I know. I guess I want to start with what's changed in your life and like maybe some of the things that two and a half years ago you didn't pay as much attention to, but maybe now you pay a little more attention to like with fishing. Like, have have you evolved at all in those two and a half years or changed your mind on something?
SPEAKER_00You know, just continuing to slow down. Um, I think I mentioned it a little bit in the last episode how important that was, just taking your time and making sure you're you know crossing your T's, dotting your I's that's become more and more relevant in the more I fly fish. Uh the importance of slowing down and just making sure everything's right. Not just going out there with your head down and and kind of blindly attacking everything seems to do a little bit more harm than good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we talked a lot about that. Well, I don't know, we we talked about knots. So I definitely know slow is smooth, smooth is fast when it comes to knots. Uh so we talked about knots and and uh your favorite knots and and some of those things.
SPEAKER_00Um And that stuff can trickle down.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, that stuff will all trickle down to taking your time thing from the knots all the way to working a run. You know, you don't want to rush through any of that to fighting your fish. You know, if you if you rush fighting your fish, you're gonna break it off. You rush fishing the run, you might spook them. I mean, every aspect of of fly fishing is is penalized by rushing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The the more that I do this show, the more I always ask at the end of the show if you could go back and give yourself two pieces of advice. What would you tell yourself to help you progress as a fly fisher? And I get slowed down more and more and more. I mean, as just like a philosophical, tactical, like all of the above. It's just like I wish I would have slowed down earlier when I was starting out. It's a very common answer. And uh I find personally I enjoy my day on the river a lot more when I'm able to do that. I'm not able to do it all the time, but um I when I'm I'm I'm not I'm on I'm messing up when I'm not doing that, I feel like. And I'm sometimes I'll catch myself, but yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00I mean, um, you know, it just benefits both aspects of fishing, and and you know, you're also out there to relax. Um, so you know, it kind of keeps you from getting a little bit too frustrated and also gonna yield a few more fish.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I fished with a guy, a friend of mine up in Idaho oh in the fall, I think. Yeah, it was fall time frame. Right before I went elk hunting up in Idaho with my dad. And dude was just slow and smooth and steady, and it chilled me out, man. I was like I to like keep up with him, I had to like slow down. It was a weird, it was a weird, like just fishing with him made me uh just chilled me out, man. It was such a like a great day of fishing. I had I caught wonderful fish, had a great time, and I think it was just like watching this guy just like move around the river like he's done it a thousand times and just chilled me out, you know.
SPEAKER_00I feel like everybody has that guy if you fish long enough, you know, where it's kind of that aha moment and you're like, okay, I'm I'm doing too much, or or I'm going too fast, you know, and you you look at that guy and you're like, holy smokes, that's that's slick. I'm gonna try that. And next thing you know, it's it's working out for you.
SPEAKER_02Nah, that's cool.
SPEAKER_00Kind of Jedi stuff.
SPEAKER_02What's uh what else? Anything else changed? I know you got your new outfitter lined out, uh living stage trout guides, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. Um still an independent contractor, you know, time to time I'll work for some other guys, but mostly trying to get my business off the ground. Um got a few other independent contractors that I'll bring in from time to time when I'm busy, but you know, for the most part, I'm trying to yield as many trips as possible there and uh really excited about it. Excited to see where it goes.
SPEAKER_02What's been one of the more challenging parts of the journey on that for you?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, you you think it's gonna be very nice to uh work for yourself and not really have a boss, and then you kind of understand that everybody else, or all your clients turn into your boss, you know. So um ultimately it's it's a nice uh challenge for me. I'm enjoying it because you know I kind of felt like I I peaked where I was and and I was looking for something a little bit more. Um but ultimately, you know, it's been super gratifying and working through the problems and and some stuff that I've run into and uh just making it work so far so good.
SPEAKER_02That was my next question. What's been one of the more rewarding parts of that? Like what's been something that's stood out to you?
SPEAKER_00You know, really just taking nothing and and turning it into something. I mean, you know, I I went to school and studied a little bit of marketing and such, and being able to utilize that um for my own business has been a lot of fun. So um getting out there, you know, feeling like I'm doing something a little bit more, and and also, you know, down the road it hopefully it benefits me. So something I love, so I I couldn't be happier.
SPEAKER_02I'm curious if it sounds like you're saying that some of the other additional duties, I guess, are are enjoyable for you. I'm curious if that kind of entrepreneurship thing is do you do you like that? Do you like the problem solving of, you know, we're not trying to catch a fish here, but I gotta figure out, you know, QuickBooks, or I gotta figure out, you know, marketing, or I gotta figure out sales, or like those types of things are all art forms in themselves, right? You can you can study that forever and go to college for it and teach it, and like so I find that with my business and my life that those things are uniquely they can be uniquely exciting too, especially if they're tied into this other thing that I really like doing, fly fishing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Um yeah, I think I've always kind of enjoyed the problem solving thing and probably what drew me to fly fishing. So um, you know, kind of just utilizing those skills. Um I mean, even even in fly fishing, you learn day-to-day stuff that you can use, slowing down, paying attention, um, and it's really cool to be able to do it into something that's a little bit more of your business, a little more professional. So um it's something that I really just see that kind of works its way into every part of my life at this point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Seems like that's just kind of a good way to go through life. Slow it down, observe things, like don't react too quickly, just chill, watch what did you say? Uh slow down, uh pay attention, right? That's that's a good way to be. Uh well, that's good, man. I'm super excited for you. We'll talk a little bit more about that at the end and some of the things you got coming up that you're excited about with the uh outfitter. But uh for people that haven't listened to the first episode, I want to give them a little bit of your backstory and wonder if you could just talk a little bit about how you got started in fly fishing, how you ended up in Montana, and um kind of your your journey into guiding and ultimately where you're at today. We don't have to go over it too much, but uh you know, I want people to understand who you are and where you're at.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So I grew back uh I grew up back east in New Jersey. Uh grew up fishing with my dad and my brothers, mostly conventional stuff until I got a little bit older. Um, probably about 12 or 13, I picked up the fly rod. It was something my dad was into when he was a little bit younger. Um, so he kind of got back into it and I joined him. Um we did a lot of our fishing up in the cat skills in New York, uh kind of the beaver kill, Willowemak, Never Sink, uh, some of them uh on the Delaware over there as well. Um once I graduated from high school, I went off to college in West Virginia and joined their fly fishing club. Uh over there, it really seemed to take off. I mean, that's where my love flourished. I had done a little bit of um fishing with Trout Unlimited back east with my father, and I kind of was a little intimidated about learning from those guys. So once I was able to join the fly fishing club, it kind of eaten the playing field and you know, really took off and had a blast over there in West Virginia. Um so when I was getting towards the end of my degree, which was uh advertising with a minor in business administration, kind of got worried about ending up in a city again because you know I grew up right outside of New York City, so looked for alternatives. Um I wanted to uh figure out a way to go west for a little bit and be a fly fishing guide, and I found or sweetwater guide school. Sweetwater guide school uh does a week-long course um on the Bighorn River, kind of going over drift boat navigation, rowing, entomology, um you know, all the uh customer service aspect, you know, everything that it takes to be a guide, and on top of that they have great um great relationships with outfitters all over the country to place you accordingly. Um and after that week they had asked me to come on and and work for them, and I've been in Livingston, Montana ever since. This is where they're based, and uh this is where I cut my teeth, and um you know I've been progressing out here with my own career and and I hope to stay here for the long haul.
SPEAKER_02Alex, that was succinct and inclusive and well done, dude. Like very good. That was that was everything we needed right there. So yeah, and people want to find out more, they can, like I said, listen to episode 123. But um, I think that's cool. We talked about this before the show, but my family's originally from New Jersey, and my father had a similar path, moved out to Montana when he was I think he was like 20 years old, and that was probably in the it was in the 70s, early 70s maybe.
SPEAKER_00Gory days.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. He always tells me he would say, like, yeah, I used to go out after work on the Gallatin with uh he was he never got into fly fishing. He's like, you wouldn't see a stole. He was like, you wouldn't see a car and you wouldn't see a soul all afternoon, you know. And he would just bring a six-pack of beer, can of worms, can of nightcrawlers, just catch fish on the that's awesome. Yeah, it was uh yeah, and when I was a kid, he I remember I have fond, fond memories of him taking me out on the Galton uh in the morning. Um yeah, so you guys come up here quite a bit. When I was a kid, I used to for my listeners, they probably know this, but for new listeners, I grew up in Washington, and then that was kind of our vacation thing was going back to Montana because my my dad moved away from Montana like 1978, and then I was born in 79, and my brother was born in 83, 82, 83. But we were in Washington, so all of our not all of them, we did some Oregon coasts, but we did a lot of drive out to Montana, visit his friends, and a lot of his friends that he made out there were old family kind of rancher, like homestead kind of people, you know. And uh cool. So visit them and play on the ranch and things like that, and then eventually I got old enough and I went out in the summers to work. And yeah, that's kind of my connection to Montana and my dad.
SPEAKER_00Game over.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, we it's too cold for me, man. Like, I was looking at places to live in Missouri and I was like, oh, Montana, it'd be so great. And I wimped out. I totally did. I I wimped out, I was like, man, it's cold here. I went out fishing and house hunting in April, and it was just uh it was just snowing and sleet and the rivers were high and stuff, and I'm like, dude, come on, man. Um we love to hear that.
SPEAKER_00I hate to say it, but we love to hear that because I know, I know we've got uh mass pilgrimage going on right now.
SPEAKER_02It's a western place, man, for sure. And uh it's it's always gonna be like that, hopefully, with the weather and stuff. But yeah, I just uh there was other reasons why we didn't go out there too. There's some other work reasons why I ended up in Utah, but I've still got a lot of friends out there and place my heart, man.
SPEAKER_00Perfect, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so like I said, Montana has a special place in my heart. So much so I ended up going to school in Colorado, and I want to talk about runoff. So we're gonna talk about a couple things. We're gonna talk about dry fly fishing on the Yellowstone and different hatches and stuff. Uh but before we get into that, I want to talk about Freestone Rivers and runoff before, during, after, all that. And one of the reasons I want to talk about that is because I've been stuck a couple times going out to Montana fishing and just get caught in that runoff thing. Specifically, I remember when I graduated school in Colorado, before I had to show up for work, I had 60 days. I had 60 days of leave before I ended up having to report for duty, I guess. And I was like, I'm going fishing, I'm going to Montana, I'm going fly fishing, you know, it's going to be epic. I'm just going to be dry flies all day. Because I'd been in Colorado, you know, it's different kind of fishing, you know, it's it's smaller streams, it's smaller bugs, it's just it's just different. I loved it, but it's different. And uh me and my best friend were like, all right, we're gonna go do this. And dude, we got to Montana and it just kicked our ass. It was like, I mean, it was it was almost unsafe to get on a lot of the rivers. We caught it like right at the worst time, probably. I mean, it was the end of May.
SPEAKER_00So the semester ended. Yeah, okay. I was gonna say the semester ended and you went straight up there.
SPEAKER_02May 22nd, yeah. I had 60 days and I probably should have timed it better. I should have gone back. I was dating a girl, my wife now, but I I went back to Washington after I went on my fly fishing adventure that didn't end up being ended be more eating pizza, drinking beer than fly fishing, really, because it was just it w it was raining a lot, you know, it was crazy.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Um all right, so it's funny. I mean, it you're always risking it coming out that time of year, but you know, if you catch a window, it can be some of the best fishing of the year. It's just hard to count on it.
SPEAKER_02That's why I want to talk to you about it. So let's talk about leading up to it. Um, and then we'll talk about during and then after. Because I know after the runoff is a good time because fish are kind of like stoked to be it's not cold, it's not as cold and slow, and you know, it's just like the same reason I'm excited, it's just like a nice fun time. You know, it's like let's get out on the river. I feel like that's how the fish are. But leading up to it, you know, do you get excited for that? You know, this you get this thing coming, the runoff's coming, and you're waiting for it, and then waiting for the backside, or how how do you think about fishing prior to runoff, I guess?
SPEAKER_00So I'll start, I guess, still late winter. Um, you know, we start getting a few nice days in in February, sometimes um January, or generally uh January, the river's still pretty locked up, frozen. Um February we'll get a nice day here and there. Uh get out on the river and streamer fishing on the banks can be excellent. Um that's mostly what I'm doing that time of year. Uh I'm not fishing too many clients at that point because, like what what we said earlier, it's hard to convince folks to come out. It could be blizzarding. Um you can't you can't count on any of that. Um But yeah, I mean there's there's some big fish that I think similar to you know, right after runoff, they're they're no longer locked into these deeper holes. They can move around a little bit more, they can they can be the predators that they want to be. Um so getting out and giving them the the opportunity to to see a little bit more calories, which they might be looking for at that point, can yield a nice fish. Um, you know, we tend to see some of the nicer browns of the season, February, March.
SPEAKER_02So it's warming up, but it hasn't warmed up enough to really like hit the runoff. And I guess it totally depends on temperatures too, right? Because if it gets real hot real fast, you know, that can be bad for human beings because of you know flooding and stuff. But um, are you looking for a more gradual or what what's optimum, or is there an optimum?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, obviously we're hoping for a big snowpack through the winter. Um, that's really what fuels our our cool water throughout the summer. Um, so you know, if we get that check, which we have this year, it's great. Um, really the next step is hoping that we have a real gradual spring, you know, not too much rain right off the bat. Um we touched on it last episode I was on with you. You know, we dealt with that flood. I guess it was about four or five years ago now. Um or three, yeah. Anyways, you could look that one up.
SPEAKER_02I think it was the summer before we talked. I think when we talked it was like last summer. So that would have been, you know, three years ago, about ish, maybe three and a half.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I mean, um you're you're really just hoping for that, you know, not too many big brainstorms with it heating up in the spring, you know. This is the time of year where that stuff would start happening. Um so ultimately, if you can get cooler days, you know, you're still getting below below freezing overnight, not super hot during the day, you know, through May, that's excellent. You know, you're bound to have those 90 degree days from time to time once May hits, but um, hopefully they're far and few between. Um, and you're really just kind of easing into that summer weather. Uh, that's key because um, you know, it necessarily wouldn't destroy July, but you know, you're really worried about August, early September when you're fishing in June on the Yellowstone, let's say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I I was gonna say I I was prepared a little bit for this, so I got into skiing a lot when I'm out in Utah, so I have the open snow app. This is my source, so I don't know that this is super reliable, but this is my source data. But I was looking at snowpack in inches and stuff, and I saw Big Sky had 420 inches of snow, which was 109% snowpack, which 109% according to open snow is like for the last 20 to 40 years, like the average snow, where is it relative to that? So 109%. So that's that good snowpack you're talking about, right? And then Bridger 387. So Bridger was 98 91%.
SPEAKER_00Um I dare to say if you took that data and made it 10 years, this would be uh pretty um I won't I don't want to say substantially, but above average for the past 10 years, this snowpack here, which is good.
SPEAKER_02The snowpack, yeah. Well, yeah, because our snowpack here in Utah, around where I fish, so I I ski around Snow Basin, so snow basin was 270 inches and 70% impact, uh 70% snowpack, and then Park City was 300 inches and 75% snowpack. So like these are the kind of things I look at now when I'm nerding out, thinking about like runoff and snowpack and how good it's gonna be. So if you have like a year like that, is there anything that helps? Like, is it help to have like like you're talking about, a more gradual warming when you have less snowpack? Is that versus like it all dumps down and then there's nothing to trickle down later?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's kind of a never ending equation. Um, you know, you could have a kind of a crummy snowpack and go into a real wet and cool summer and be just fine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's it it always depends. Uh you know, year after year it's I haven't seen, you know, this will be my ninth season out here and and I haven't seen uh excuse me, my tenth season and I haven't seen um you know a summer that was really like any of the other ones. So uh year in year out it's a little bit different. Um so you know you just gotta kinda hold on and and and go with the flow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah just gotta keep on keeping on. I should say too a lot of the rivers I fish are free not free stones uh tailwaters which you kind of would think like the Freestones are the most vulnerable or the most um affected by all this high snowpack and stuff and runoff and things but really I found out I mean was it two years ago we had like record snowfall here at Snow Basin and it was like way oh I think we had 600 inches of snow so like double when Tahoe was getting destroyed as well I think everybody had a good year. Yeah but yeah it was two years ago but so I mean we were probably 150% I don't know but we were well over a hundred percent snowpacked and I thought this is going to be great I mean but the reservoirs were so full they had to let water out like all summer long or they were gonna right you know go over the top. And I totally didn't think about that. So that's another something that you should consider too because I've had that when I'm going to a tail water where I think oh this is going to be okay because I won't worry about runoff and now I'm also blown out because of runoff.
SPEAKER_00And right and it's tricky because you know you you can't necessarily look at the farmer's almanac or down the road on the forecast and and and just expect all that snow. So you know you're not gonna be preemptive and start dumping all that water out of the reservoir and then you know get screwed and not have any so you know it's just another part of that never ending equation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah the guy that makes those decisions I know they make some mistakes big mistakes from time to time but oh yeah the folks that are you know playing that game like we gotta let it out but we want to let out because we want a full reservoir would be the goal right um but you don't at some point if you don't let it out then it's gonna go go over the top. So what else about leading up to runoff? And like I guess let's define runoff like is it does it get to a point where like okay we can't fish now because it's too much and like that's the way I always consider runoff is just like real high flows. There's like a I imagine there's like a sweet spot and I know it's up and down we've hit on that a bunch and you can't really can't say all the time on any of this stuff but to me I think of runoff as like a period of time I don't know how long but like flows are the highest they're gonna be I guess uh for be f in between winter and summer this is the highest the flows will be like to me that is runoff.
SPEAKER_00Is that Nick is that yeah and generally absolutely yeah generally that is when the river peaks during that runoff period we have a river um that dumps into the Yellowstone not too far from here not too far from Livingston uh called the Shields it actually did something crazy a year or two ago where it actually exceeded its runoff um in August. So that was like you know biologists were kind of shocked about that. They hadn't really seen much of that people looking into it and kind of heard the guy touch on it on the the State of the Yellowstone Trout Unlimited meeting here a few weeks ago and found it pretty fascinating.
SPEAKER_02So I mean like we've been saying nothing's a guarantee but um generally I mean nine times nine point nine times out of ten that highest point of the river is going to be during that runoff you know in between uh winter and summer all right and so what else about leading up to runoff is exciting to you because I think during runoff it's kind of like alright yeah there's some fishing here and there but it's kind of like we need to pause a little bit at least yeah you know um start seeing some insects emerge and come off the water which is really exciting for fly fishermen.
SPEAKER_00I mean you know I'm not like I said earlier I'm not really doing much other than uh streamer fishing in in say February or March. Um but once these insects come off I like to kind of revolve my fly fishing around that um you know early on in in April let's say you're gonna start seeing some BWOs and and the midges will continue coming off uh blue wing olives obviously and um you know you're not always necessarily relying on seeing these insects on the surface just understanding that you know the blue wings or the midges um also marked browns and caddys um are are beginning to be relevant um you know those hatches are are not too far off so you can go ahead and bet that those nymphs you know under the water surface are becoming more active more apt to get swept off the the rocks and um available to the trout so you know kind of paying attention to that stuff and um revolving around the hatches can go a long way and and then the next thing you know um you might be fishing a bobber rig and you start seeing some March Browns pop. Our Mother's Day caddis hatch on the Yellowstone can be phenomenal. It's just it's tricky because you know the caddis the the magic number for caddis hatch is 50 54 degrees. And a lot of the time once that temperature hits our river is a little too big and muddy for it to really be great fishing. So you can go out there and see a blanket hatch but uh which is really impressive but you know there's also cottonwoods floating down the river you know so um we'll say every three two three four years you know you can really tee that up well and and that's some of the most fun fishing of the year on the Yellowstone. I mean the most prolific hatch that we have probably really the and you're talking water temp 54 degrees right yep they say 50 to 54 degrees is like the magic number for the caddis.
SPEAKER_02Okay and it's been because it's warming up it's colder than that throughout the winter and then as it warms up now you're kind of waiting for that that window early 50s temperature and that's when the caddis are going to but like you said that might be happening at the same time all the snow's melting and coming down or you're getting rain or something like that so that can be tough.
SPEAKER_00Right so that's that's when it pays to live here you know because uh just kind of keep an eye on things it's you're not gonna necessarily get folks to book a trip in the hotel and such to uh to find out that it's blown out.
SPEAKER_02Is there a temperature well that's that's this is these are the journeys that I've gone so that's my these are my frustrations. Is there a temperature for the the BWOs that you look for or is that kind of the same time frame?
SPEAKER_00About the same you know I mean um really mostly for the I think it's a little bit cooler. You don't need to wait until 40 degrees for the blue wings. You know I probably mid-40s you probably start seeing those mostly on these spring days a little overcast. Yeah you know if if it's overcast and there's a little bit of drizzle you can guarantee that you know you're gonna see some of those betas and if you're not seeing them um they like that pressure change apparently so I guarantee you they're moving around pretty good underneath the surface. So you know a blue wing olive nymph or or swinging in a merger under there is a good bet.
SPEAKER_02Alright we're gonna talk more about some of the summer hatches and stuff but let's move on to I mean I I don't know if you find yourself stuck and it's runoff what are some options that you have we talked about spring creeks and stuff in the area and a lot of places have these spring creeks you know that's something that you guys have do you want to maybe hit on that a little bit and um for somebody that does find themselves out there looking for the Mother's Day hatch and they missed it and it's raining and low you know like now what kind of thing?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely yeah there's a few different options you know it's not game over by any means um we have a few different Spring Creeks just south of Livingston here um world renowned you know if you spend some time in fly fishing literature you've probably heard of them Armstrong Spring Creek DePew Spring Creek Nelson Spring Creek you know those are you know being a Spring Creek obviously coming up out of the ground and not affected by the weather or the runoff so they stay pretty consistent 365 days a year at about that 50 55 degree mark um so you know you could always fall back on those um another thing is the still water the stillwater stuff you know you find a lake nearby um plenty of those uh taking out a map we'll show you a few of those and um you know last but not least you could get in the car we don't really have any super close to us here in Livingston but uh you could be at the lower madison which is a tailwater dam controlled river in you know just over an hour and then from there the upper Madison the Missouri the Bighorn um you know those rivers are fishing lights out right now so um you know there's always an option especially in this state I should say we're recording this on April 16th so that's kind of one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about it but for somebody else who's listening in the future we're like we're right kind of in the the heart of it yeah let's talk about that like where are you guys out right now on the Livingston? Like how's how's the flows and we're about uh it's it's warmed up the last few days so it it bumped up just a little bit we had some storms we put some color in the river it's probably about 2,000 CFS at the moment it's probably come up about 500 CFS in the past week. You know just for frame of mind you know when when we do hit runoff we usually max out at about 3000 CFS so 15 times the amount of water that's in there right now. And when that flood event happened it it neared 6000. But generally it it it peaks at about uh that 3000 mark.
SPEAKER_02Yeah that's another good point that you bring up is flows and I would imagine that's kind of another clue that you have everything is kind of a moving target. But you know if you know typical flows or if you look at a certain year and you're like okay well this was this much snowpack and flows got this high and this year is this much snowpack I can expect flows to get roughly this high right either slightly lower or slightly higher depending depending on the differences in snowpack. You know now if the flows are 5,000 hey we got a ways to go before we're at the the top here right exactly and and you know on the way back down you know 5,000 is not a bad flow.
SPEAKER_00On the way up um the fishing tends to kind of tank you know for whatever reason when you're seeing that graph go up um the fishing goes the opposite direction. You know so trying to find trying to find those days after it bumped when it levels out a little bit can be very good. But you know after runoff when it's coming down I mean you could be on it you know we're probably not getting it on getting on it on any more than let's say 13000 CFS. Yeah um but you know you could fish it all the way from there you know down down to where we're at now. So um and when it's falling like that it's awesome. Really good.
SPEAKER_02Why is that is there a reason for that is uh I mean is it because bugs are getting washed into the river more or I've heard that a bunch and so I've heard it enough times now that I think it's finally kind of stuck in my brain it's like fish the drops you know it's better fishing typically than water coming up but is there like why is that you know I don't I don't know this is going to be entire spec entirely speculation here um but you know I I tend to think that it's just like what what's going on you know like what what the heck is happening?
SPEAKER_00They're they're getting thrown off their groove you know it's it's getting harder for them but when it's dropping it's getting easier if that makes sense. So it's there's less flow there's less speed to the current so there the food is moving a little bit slower. So you know you kind of it's like if you stepped into a batting cage and you and you were you know swinging at 90 miles per hour and then you you got the 70 miles per hour you know ball coming at you it's gonna be a little bit easier after you've been watching the 90 mile per hour.
SPEAKER_02Alright did you play baseball? No I'm a terrible baseball player I was gonna say because I'm not going I'm not hitting any 90s or 70s so I'm not hitting hitting like 45 like lobbing it over. Exactly I'll be in the slow pitch softball yeah lucky lucky that's a good analogy I just thought maybe you uh yeah I had two brothers that were pretty good at baseball but I ran track. Alright uh okay so yeah coming down um that's been my experience uh but it's you make a good point that it's it doesn't have to be like the whole downslope there can be it could come up and then level off a little like those are also kind of breaks in the the rise of the river right it doesn't happen just perfectly gradually the entire time I think you know as far or as long as there's some sort of consistency if you see some sort of consistency consistency in in the flow um or or it's dropping it should be pretty good you know if you're seeing up down up down you know it just I mean it's gotta throw them off they're animals you know and they're getting in tune with their environment every day it's always changing and and you know if it's throwing you know more at them it's gonna take them a little bit more to dial it in. Yeah I mean yeah that makes sense I'll buy it I'm buying it good man. All right so what else? So flows now they've reached the peak and now they're starting to come down now you guys are getting excited we still have to wait for the river to to be fishable and we should probably mention that there's there's times when it's just don't even go out it's unsafe right people can hurt themselves or you can get out there and right there's a few rafting outfits on the river um up towards Gardner the entrance of the park and you know those guys aren't even on the river when that stuff's going on um you've got massive cottonwoods which are the main tree that grow on the riverbanks out here they could be a hundred two hundred feet long um just floating down the middle of the river and it's nasty.
SPEAKER_00You definitely don't want to be out there when that's going on that being said you know as it's as it starts dropping um the the clarity isn't always necessarily something to drive you away. You know so we're not necessarily f not fishing because it's chalk milk, although that's probably a good idea to to go to a different river. But at the end of the day it's mostly because the river's just way too big. There are times where we where we are affected by certain storms midsummer that put some mud into the river and it's still safe flows. And you'll look at the river and and think you know there's no way we're catching a fish and and it very well might be the case but uh sometimes you know we've noticed that it makes these bigger fish more vulnerable. These bigger fish seem to be a little bit more comfortable um in shallower vulnerable water when there's some murk in it. So um if you think about you know their their predators they're the birds um with clear water they're probably a little bit more concerned of being seen um but you know when there gets to be some some uh dirt in the river you know I think they'll tend to move into those those spots that we're used to fishing you know there you know the reason that we don't see these big fish all the time is because we're they're probably a little you know doing the stuff that you know we're not thinking a lot of the time not doing what the rest of the fish are doing. But it it seems that they'll end up in that more vulnerable water um you know when there's a little bit of murk in there. Numbers game not so much but you know I dare to say that every summer um when I look back the the biggest fish that I saw that summer was probably in a little bit of color. Yeah I I think you're right I think that they feel more comfortable right they they're like okay I'm not as exposed um which because they're not right I mean like you said with birds and things like that so yeah maybe and on top of that you know brown trout being antiphototropic trying to avoid light at all costs you know that that helps cut off a little bit of that light get into shallower water where they can you know hunt sculping um and it's often the places where we're throwing our flies up to drag into the deeper stuff so define antiphototropic please uh so photoc phototropic would be like uh like a plant right so like they take light so antiphototropic this is a word that I might be making up don't know exactly but I think that's what it is.
SPEAKER_02Okay well I just caught it I'm like I don't know I have no idea what that means so it means they avoid light at all costs.
SPEAKER_00They avoid light okay yeah so um and that makes sense right I mean everything we know about brown trout is you know the kind of old angry man on his front lawn that hardly leaves or on his recliner that doesn't want to get up you know um just kind of hiding from the sunlight and they'll come out into those areas of light I guess the trade off is I need to eat right yeah I gotta exactly on their front lawn you know all right fair enough sorry to put you on the spot with antiphototropic but no it's all good one I hadn't heard before we'll have to look that one up later but I'm pretty sure I'll ask old Miriam Webster.
SPEAKER_02That's fine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah uh not doing what the fish um okay anything else that you think about um kind of in those early stages of the flows coming down now we're in kind of the backside of runoff so we've reached our peak water's coming down fishing's getting better uh what other considerations do you think about or what gets you excited in those in that time well on the Yellowstone exciting thing about um kind of the the end of runoff is that we start seeing some salmon flies um which you know most folks know about in the fly fishing world one of the more profound hatches um sometimes you know it's it's a little bit hard to get them on the dry fly because the river's so big um but you know they'll absolutely devour the nymphs and and that being said you know the the river being so big the these fish are smart if you will um they're not gonna sit in the middle of the river I think we touched on this last episode and and withstand all that current you know they're gonna push to the side where that current is a l is softer um they're able to maintain their spot you know and also on top of that these stoneflies are a migratory insect um they don't emerge like uh a lot of the other stuff that we're used to so they're crawling up to the riverbank um so that's the best of both worlds you know they're sitting there in a little less current and and you know pretty much their food is coming straight to them trying to get past them up onto the riverbank where they'll shed their shuck and return to the water to to lay their eggs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah let's let's let's put a pin in that because I think that's important. We're gonna talk about hatches later on but um the salmon fly stonefly type thing they're they're living in the river on the bottom of the river but they don't have like the emerger stays where they come up and you know break their husk and hatch and they don't have all that whole life cycle process so that um that like a mayfly or a caddis would have they're just kind of okay I'm on the bottom of the river it's time to become a dry fly right and I'm gonna I'm gonna I I'm a stonefly and now I'm going to go become a salmon fly right so I'm gonna make this journey to the edge of the river and then that's where you see all those husks you know those cracked shells on the on the rocks which I remember that from my childhood man and I mean obviously I know now but I would just remember all those my dad used to call them hellgermites he uh all the time.
SPEAKER_00I don't I don't know if if that was a word or that means the same thing but like it was just like to me they're hungry two different things but they they don't look that far off you know to somebody who's not a fly fisherman I mean that's that's more knowledge than I think most folks would have had.
SPEAKER_02Yeah to me they were Helger mites my whole life until I learned about flyfishing I'm like I think they're stoneflies but I don't know um for folks who haven't seen those shucks it really just kind of looks you know if you've seen a cicada shuck before um tons of those a little bit longer skinny longer yeah yeah um yeah that's cool and again with that that's timing too right where I've I've gone out for the salmon fly hatch and been I've missed it on the backside and I've missed it on the front side. I've been to too much water and I've been um just it's over, you know, missed it buddy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I get I get the novelty of it for sure. Um you know maybe my lack of understanding is because I haven't really teed it up all that great but you know um in the spring when that or in the early summer when that's beginning there's so much good water and so many other good hatches going on that you know I I hardly get hung up on it. Um I'm you know I and and some other people you'll hear us say that uh the best best place to be during the salmon fly hatch is where it's not. So that's fair dude.
SPEAKER_02I mean there's less people probably um yeah yeah my my memory from trying to do that and missing it on the backside was um just lights out PMDs and fish PMD PMD emergers. I was like I mean it was great. It's one of those you know every other cast kind of thing maybe not other every other cast but it was yeah it was great it was great fishing and uh it was all PMD I was on the big hole river though. Okay. We go up there we go up there yeah we go up there every year now we've been up three years in a row it's kind of just like close and good and we've got this little cabin we stay at and uh it's just good for my son and stuff but this year I'm taking my own drift boat so that's cool. Oh drift boat first first year with a drift boat. I got a stealthcraft aftermath nice huh 15 foot um it's got mid wall so it's not the high side but it's not low side it's like in the in between. I forget what that is like I think it's like 20 to 24 inches maybe or something like that. Right on.
SPEAKER_00But yeah I would be on the green most bells and whistles sometimes.
SPEAKER_02Did you get any bells and whistles on the well okay so this one is uh yeah this one doesn't have any like super nice shit but I know what you're talking about. You can get a lot of things they got like electric electric anchors and like oh my goodness electric anchor you can open in the front battery for music and glow stick lights and uh yeah no I just got like a a basic so well that's one of the things I was excited about because I don't want any of that but they're not cheap right so no I want the I want the thing that does the thing. You know I don't want I just want the functionality of this drift boat. Um I'm trying to think about like the things about the drift boat that I have that are oh the bottom it's got like a uh it's got like the upgraded bottom I think so it's a little more protection I think it's like uh like Teflon or yeah whatever they make the Chine guards out of um they've covered they cover the whole bottom with that and I rode my buddies dude and I was just my brother has a clackercraft and we've we've used that for years and but now I'm out here in Utah so I wanted one. My son's 10 now so he can go so it's like the perfect age for camping and going and I mean probably could have started earlier but I finally got around to it and uh it's got a lot of storage for camping and stuff which is something we want to do because you can camp lost spots on the river which is awesome but also um I I don't know I I just rows really like I find it much easier to row upstream in certain sections and to catch eddies and to catch like the backside of islands like I don't know I don't know I mean I don't know they say that it's got this honeycomb core or whatever I it just feels lighter to me when I row it and maybe that's because you know when I'm rowing with my brother and my dad we got more shit in the boat so maybe it's just heavier or something but yeah just I like it. As long as you're happy with it yeah exactly I mean they're all different they're all a little different you know you can get in any boat and eventually it'll be your favorite I think yeah so uh I'm anyway I'm jazzed about it I'm super excited um and also uh it wasn't brand new either it was like a used refurbished one um so they like put all new like real painted it and like it's so it's never been used but it's used. Does that make sense? Cool yeah absolutely I mean I are they fiberglass in my are did they make the are their boats made out of fiberglass so they're made no as far they advertise we're not like a fiberglass hole that it's some sort of honeycomb kind of core uh I don't think it's carbon fiber because it would be too expensive but it's some sort of it might be fiberglass honeycomb right so they might make the honeycomb out of fiberglass but it's not just like a solid fiberglass thing and then they coat it with epoxy but it's not metal I know that uh my friend has a a metal hide he likes metal I think aluminum I think is what he's got on anyway it's a lot about my drift boat that'll all be edited out probably I don't know what we were talking about. Uh is there anything else that we're missing about the water coming down or the backside of the runoff that you think is people maybe are underestimate or don't think of that you think of as a guide and an outfitter and and things to consider?
SPEAKER_00I mean we kind of summed it up with just you know the fish kind of being all in one spot and being effing hungry.
SPEAKER_02Are there other hatches?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah let's talk about some other hatches yeah so the the water's coming down they're obviously surviving they've made it through runoff um so they were eating uh but you know obviously once the water does chill out a little bit for them they're gonna go ahead and take advantage of that and and make up for some lost time so those fish are hungry um yeah because they're gonna be eating free they haven't been eating as much like on a tail water because it's a freestone so it's just less crap coming in the river when it's slowed down and not moving and there's no bugs and not there's not no bugs but there's less less bugs right and everything just kind of slows down so they got to slow down right I was talking about the runoff there Jason so it would be faster. I mean in the wintertime yeah I'm saying oh fuck yeah that all slows down exactly and now so they're living in this world where everything's slowing down and now okay now that's over and like you're saying yeah now it's faster right because like pre so pre-runoff they're super stoked on that you know no more ice they're not stuck in one hole they can move around a little bit be more of the predator that they are and then during runoff they'll kind of you know be forced to hunker down a little bit again um you know find a spot that that might be a little bit deeper below the real fast current or or in an eddy off to the side um you know so being that that water is a little bit slower there's not going to be as much food coming up in there um but it's where they can survive so you know once they get through runoff they make do with eating what they can and once the river drops they're hungry so they make up for that lost time there and they seem to eat really well right after it's like a perfect storm.
SPEAKER_02Exactly there's the temperatures are coming up so the um the bugs are coming out but the water is low enough now where they can take advantage of it right it's it's kind of the sweet spot.
SPEAKER_00And it helps us out too which which we've kind of mentioned it helps us out too because um you know we pretty much know where all those fish are like we said earlier they're gonna be right up on the bank where that water's a little bit chill a little bit more chill.
SPEAKER_02Yeah you mentioned that you mentioned the eddies is that I always hear this I've had experienced it a couple times not I mean to be quite honest you know when the river's high like that I don't have tons of luck but I do I have a couple of times found like these spots where like I guess this is where they're at you know is that something that you look for during postrunoff those kind of eddies and holes and like don't leave fish to find fish kind of thing like this is a this is where they're at absolutely um it's a little bit different than than just that I would say on the Yellowstone you know you could do that quite a bit on some of these tailwaters or spring creeks you tend to find more potted up fish on that type of water.
SPEAKER_00But that being said, you know I'm not gonna leave fish to find fish. If I catch a fish somewhere and we're and we're stationary not floating down the river we're gonna try it again. And um you know we're not gonna leave until it's a few casts after without any fish. But for the most part you know on the Yellowstone we're just getting right back to that water. We're taking taking note of of what water they're eating in and rinse and repeat as you're floating down the river. I mean um eventually you're gonna see water that looks very similar. It's not going to be identical obviously but you're gonna see uh you know the break in the current that you caught that last fish at or or you know that that same speed and depth that you caught that last fish at always kind of just paying attention to that stuff. In that sense, yes but you know you're not so much getting hung up on on let's say an eddy on the Yellowstone unless maybe we're having some dry fly fishing. Even then it it seems to kind of pay to to cruise and just cover some water on this river here.
SPEAKER_02Well it's a big water river to cover too right I mean we talked about Yellowstone last time but longest freestone in North America is that I mean in the United States up to 48 states.
SPEAKER_00I think that the Alaska's got one yeah that beats it but um yeah this the Yellowstone River here man is a big bad girl.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing also the thing that I I like about the Yellowstone that I don't know if we brought up last time is the history of it you know like Lewis and Clark and like exploration and anytime I'm around that I love to see those signs and just think about you know folks coming up here when there was nothing and coming through here and seeing it for seeing seeing all these things you know and um when so few people had seen them obviously you know right other people had seen them but like you know I mean you and I have the chance to read about it or see pictures and and you still show up and it's mind blowing right I mean could you imagine really not hearing much about it at all walking through this area. It's just like what I didn't even know this stuff was out there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah steam coming out of the ground and man I yeah I always think about that as pretty neat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah it's one of the reasons I like being in the woods because it it makes me feel like yeah it's it's a little bit of that feeling you know even in the on the river or in the woods in the mountains but especially when I'm up high in the mountains above the timber line especially like that's when I'm like dude not a lot of people moving through here you know it it feels yeah there's few places in the world that you can really achieve that at this point I think and and it's cool to be able to take advantage of what you know that gets you there. Yeah even if it's just a peak a little window into that uh feeling and emotion I think it's cool. What's the window what's the this is kind of a gotcha question I guess but can you remember like what's the earliest peak runoff and the latest peak runoff in your memory that you've seen or heard of like we're talking about this window right but like the earliest runoff I've seen is April and the latest I've seen it run off and you know it's kind of hard for me to figure out when exactly it starts going up but I could tell you probably when we start getting back on it.
SPEAKER_00I mean generally uh it'll probably go up mid-May um we'll probably fish it here for another uh three four weeks um so once it starts going up mid-May it'll generally stay up through June um mid-April it's mid it's April right now so oh I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry did I say May? Yeah well uh that's what I'm talking about. That's when it starts going up.
SPEAKER_02It's not going up right now it's still chilling?
SPEAKER_00I mean very, very just like you know gradually man. You know like it is not I wouldn't consider it runoff yet you know it it it will go up and down a little bit um but it's not really you know when runoff happens it's like you know you'll see like 10 CFS in a day. Okay. Um and that's that's pretty big. So um you know mid-May it'll start going up and then eventually it'll just triple overnight. Um and then you're not fishing it until uh you know my first year out here which was the latest we got going that was 2017 I think we didn't get on it until right before July July 3rd or July 4th I can't remember exactly the day but you know all the other years I'm thinking I'm remembering that we were on probably the last week of June or so. I think there was even a week where we were a couple weeks uh probably like June 20th even we got on it and and that ended up being a a year that we that we dealt with some hood owl towards the end of uh uh August and September which which doesn't allow us to fish after 2 p.m.
SPEAKER_02Yeah that's another thing that I want to hit on but just so I'm clear it seems like you're saying mid-May is kind of like a more persistent kind of yeah it's gonna start coming up mid-May and then it's just a matter of how long it goes until you can fish it again right it's it's just like last this long or that long like and it's gonna last longer with more snowpack and temperatures and rain and like that's all variable but you know the beginning is kind of more predictable and the backside is I guess less predictable and more dependent on correct external factors I guess correct yeah I would go ahead and say that as well. Okay. That's good to know for somebody who's thinking about it like all right May seems like but like you said fishing on the upside is maybe not as awesome uh as the downside let's talk about Hoodl. You mentioned it is that something you can predict pretty well then if if you've got, you know, if runoff is over by mid-June and you're like ah well this isn't going to be good in August Yeah there's a guide out here a longtime guide Tony Valeriano I've heard him say a bunch of times you know if you're fishing in June you're in trouble.
SPEAKER_00Um and it has seemed to be pretty spot on. We we've run into problems every time we were fishing in June unless we were getting on say the 28th or just a couple days before July it seems like we were we would end up in that hoot owl. You know the thing about the hoot owl fishing is uh you know you're obviously going out there with your clients and explaining to them what's going on they they already know you know the hoot owl thing but the timing at least because you've talked to them you're picking them up a little bit earlier um getting them off the river at two o'clock that's all been explained but you know you're also telling them hey listen we're not taking pictures today um you know if if if we are taking a picture it's in the net real quick letting it get that right back into the water. The thing about the fishing during hoot owl is that it could be it could be pretty good. You know I don't want to advertise hood owl fishing as as when you should try to get on the Yellowstone. Absolutely not but um as opposed you know a lot of people will think that that warm water is going to tank the fishing but um I think they're getting to the point where they're kind of thinking oh shit you know I need to prepare for what might happen here and and in order to do that I need to eat some food. So you know the fishing can be I I we don't get the chance to see that decline because once the river hits 73 degrees they shut it down entirely. But I think in betwe in that 70 to 73 degree temperature mark, you know they they tend to see oh crap, you know, we need to eat some food because if it hits 73 we're really going to be in trouble. You know they they get to that point and I don't think they're able to really be as mobile as as they'd like to be yeah that's a really good point.
SPEAKER_02I mean it makes sense that the fish is seeing negative things happen to his environment and he's like if things keep heading in this direction like I'm gonna be in trouble.
SPEAKER_00I'm not even gonna be able to get some food so I better get after it exactly so it doesn't tank the fish necessarily it just changes the program um leave earlier a little bit earlier.
SPEAKER_02Yeah you don't have the evening kind of um yeah and as long as it's getting cooler at night I guess that helps I would I would think that helps I mean even if you have less water if the temperatures aren't super high you could have a low snowpack here and potentially have you know not have super high temperatures. I'm not I don't know I'm totally speculating but like if it gets cold enough at night like I mean that's exactly what's going down so yeah that's all this is is speculation right right yeah I guess that's what's what's cool about it but you know also if you have less water it's it's more uh susceptible to temperature changes right like you don't it doesn't take less water as much hot or cold to get the water hot or cold right so correct yeah if we were to advertisement for fishing early when the when the when the water's low I guess is what we're talking about. Yeah yes sir what do before we move on we're gonna talk about um we're gonna transition into dry fly fishing on the Yellowstone and we'll talk more about the different hatches that are on the river in the summertime specifically we talked a little about leading up to it are there any other hatches on in the kind of coming off runoff besides the salmon fly that you're excited about in that kind of early July kind of runoff coming down before we I guess before we move into like we are at stable flows now we are this is dry fly fishing on normal flows in on the in the Yellowstone Valley you know um paradise valley or I don't know what you call that.
SPEAKER_00Paradise Valley Paradise Valley Paradise Valley but I'll we'll fish it all over now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Anything that we're forgetting anything you want to bring up that we haven't mentioned yeah you know along along with those salmon flies a week or two down the line you know before the river really drops you start seeing some yellow sallies maybe some PMDs uh you start seeing some caddis as well so you know that that stuff can all be really fun um it's kind of earlier dry fly fishing which is awesome um sometimes like we mentioned during the salmon fly hatch it seems like the fish are not super ego to eager to come to the surface because the river's still a little bit big but being aware of those hatches um and and playing your nymphs accordingly can go a long way.
SPEAKER_02No like you said so yeah maybe a pat's rubber legs even though we're it's no it's salmon fly time but maybe they're not you know maybe they're not airborne right but they're still out and about crawling around so that's still the game or like uh yeah Golden Stone or something like that if if it's yellow salad we see some of those too about that same time of year. Yeah all right that's fair enough I I just want to hit on this one more time before we move on but just because we're talking about hatches doesn't mean that we're talking dry flies, right? I think that maybe we'll save this to the next episode, but I this will be the lead in to the next episode. But we're gonna talk about hatches in summertime we've talked a little bit about it in pre-post runoff but um yeah it's it's just it's not just dry fly hatches it's bug hatches that one stage of that is the dry fly but there's other things that go into that and so I think that myself definitely personally but a lot of people get this idea that they're the same thing. The hatch and the dry flies are the same thing but there's all this stuff before and after that kind of lead up to that. The hatch is just that one specific moment in the bug's life there's you know there's the dun and the spinner and there's all this other stuff on the backside and there's the all the nymph stuff on the front side right absolutely and I'm not I will say I'm not like super expert on on all the uh like nuances of these bugs but we'll we'll do a good job. Oh yeah it'll be exciting and fun and we'll talk about it in part two thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories and artwork check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthair.com If you want to make Wade Out there a part of your own fly fishing journey please subscribe and share. Until next time Wade Out There