The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT 247: Rediscovering an Artist's Passion and the Poudre River with Piper Nunn
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In this episode we WadeOutThere with Piper Nunn from Fort Collins, CO. Piper grew up in Colorado, spending time alone on the river even before she found fishing. It was after she began working in a local bagel shop in Fort Collins, that her co-workers talked her into giving fly fishing a shot.
She loved it from day one, and from then on, much of her spare time in school was spent on the Poudre River, fishing and finding inspiration for her art. She loved fly fishing so much actually, that it inspired her to change her college major to fisheries. It also inspired her to paint more; using the details of her studies to help inform her art, while simultaneously allowing her art to help her move through school.
Piper began sharing her paintings with the world and soon was receiving numerous commission requests and making a full time living from her art. But eventually the grind of production, forced her to take a step back from art and realign her passion with the inspiration that started it all.
We discuss tactics for the Poudre River and how sometimes taking a step back can move you forward in art and fishing.
Learn More:
Saint Pete’s Fly Shop in Fort Collins, CO
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | Small Flies, Light Takes, and Lost Fish. It’s Good for You
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | The Gift
READ: WADEOUTTHERE | The Art of the Missed Hookset
Sign up for Jason's free email newsletter (WadeOutThere Wednesday) at WadeOutThere.com/Wednesday
In this episode, we wait out there with Piper Nunn from Fort Collins, Colorado. Piper grew up in Colorado, spending time alone on the river even before she found fishing. It was after she began working in a local bagel shop in Fort Collins that her co-workers talked her into giving fly fishing a shot. She loved it from day one. And from then on, much of her spare time in school was spent on the Poodah River, fishing and finding inspiration for her art. She loved fly fishing so much actually that it inspired her to change her major to fisheries. It also inspired her to paint more, using the details of her studies to help inform her art, while simultaneously allowing her art to help her move through school. We discussed tactics for the Poodah River and how sometimes taking a step back can move you forward in art and fishing. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shefchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Welcome, Piper. Thanks for being on the Wade Out There podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk fly fishing.
SPEAKER_00Of course. I'm excited to talk fly fishing as well. We talked about this before the show, but there's gonna be some selfish art stuff in there. There's gonna be a lot of the me asking you questions that secretly will just help me understand my art journey a little bit more too. So everybody that's listening can look look forward to that as well. But we are gonna talk fly fishing and uh your fly fishing journey and some of those things. I thought I would start with the story I read about you and your beginnings in fly fishing that began in a bagel shop, is that right?
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00So so this so two things. First, I want you to tell the story because I think it's pretty cool, please. And then after you tell the story, maybe I'll ask a follow-up kind of why you ended up eventually changing majors because of it. So I mean, that's like working in bagel shop, don't fly fish, introduced to fly fishing. Now I'm a fly fishing all the time, changed my major, I'm going to art, I'm painting fish. It changed your life. So I would love to hear that story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I was actually just joking with my friend yesterday that when I got the job at said bagel shop, I was offered a job at a different restaurant, and I was in high school. And you know, if I'd picked the other restaurant, who knows what my life would look like now.
SPEAKER_00What was the other major that you changed from?
SPEAKER_02So I started in college, I was in uh environmental engineering, was where I started. And I learned really quickly that I was not good at math, and that was not the best path for me. Um, and then I kind of like floated around a little bit before settling on fisheries. But I started fly fishing, so I worked at a bagel shop in high school, and it had this really interesting like overlap with fly fishing, all of the management and the owners fly fish.
SPEAKER_00Where is this at?
SPEAKER_02This was in Fort Collins, um, Colorado. So I uh I started there in high school, and one of my managers at the time, I never fished, never even really thought about fly fishing, and he invited me to go out on the pooter, and you know, I was like, why not? And I actually had one of my great-grandfather's like old fly fishing rods that had gotten passed out to me that like I didn't really ever think I would use, but it was cool to have. And so I took it out the first day I ever went, and it was actually funny because I remember walking out of my garage with it, had never fly fished before, and I was walking out with the fly rod just pointing straight up, just walking out of the garage, and on my way out, it caught the garage door and broke before I even came up on the river. And I was like, oh no. But yeah, I went out on the river on the pooder and was taught how to fly fish, and I just instantly fell in love with it, and it was just very random because it was never something that I had even put thought into before, but I just really enjoyed it, and then from there I just kept going out and learned it took me a very long time to catch a fish. But I had always loved the river, or always spent time like going to the river, sitting by the river, reading books by the river, so it was just like another way for me to spend time in the water, which I loved. So that's kind of how I got into it.
SPEAKER_00That's cool. Couple questions. Your great-grandfather, that's pretty cool. I have a rod in my room that was my grandfather's that he bought after World War II that was like in our storage unit that my brother had restored. It's like one of my prized possessions. So I'm wondering who thought that that would be good to gend down to you if you're not even into fishing or what like where was there somebody was into fly fishing at some point.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, it was my grandfather's, so it was my grandfather's grandfather, and I was the only one on that side of the family that was really super outdoorsy, even though I didn't fish, you know, I loved camping. I would go on like camping trips by myself, road trips by myself, go hiking, go to the river with the dog. And so my grandfather fished, didn't do a lot of fly fishing, but he did a lot of fishing, and so he gave it to me.
SPEAKER_00And I think in like subtle hopes that like maybe, you know, I would well she likes everything else about what you should like about fly fishing.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a wise man then, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Because it obviously worked out.
SPEAKER_00Did you get it fixed, or is it what's the status of the rod now?
SPEAKER_02I still have it, it's not fixed. I don't even know where it is. It's not with me. I think it ended up at my dad's house somewhere in a garage. Because yeah, I remember I remember being like, oh, I have to get that fixed, and then not knowing like anything about fly rods at the time because I literally just learned about fly fishing. So I was like, I don't even know how you go about that with like an old rod, and so it got put aside. I don't know where it is. It's still around somewhere.
SPEAKER_00Is it bamboo?
SPEAKER_02I think so. I can't say with 100% certainty. Because it was yeah, it broke that day, and then I was like, uh, and then it I don't know where where it is today. I'll have to find it. I'll follow up with you when I find it. Good.
SPEAKER_00You can follow up with us. It is fine. Um, well, if you ever do find it and it is bamboo and you wanted to get it restored as an artist, as a fellow artist, I would I mean, what my brother gave me is like a piece of art. I mean, it's yeah, beautiful what they can do to these bamboo rods. When they make them originally, I've had folks on the show that build bamboo rods, and then and the restoration too is cool. So if anybody's listening and they have an old bamboo rod, consider getting it restored because it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02And if you're getting a new thing to do this week, a new ball.
SPEAKER_00Sorry for the homework. Yeah. What kept you coming back then? So, what was it about fly fishing that captured you? And then what kept you coming back when you were not catching fish? Because those are maybe that's a two-part question.
SPEAKER_02I mean, originally when I first went out, like I said, I just really loved that it gave me a new way to connect with the outdoors that I hadn't done before. And I really liked it. I'll say it gives you an excuse to like just go stand in the middle of a river for half a day.
SPEAKER_00Because if you're not fishing, that's kind of like why you're yeah, if you just go do that, then you're kind of like a weirdo. Like, who's that guy? Just like standing in a river.
SPEAKER_02I was like, oh, you're cool, you know. So I did like that. I just liked having another way to connect with the outdoors, and then honestly, just my determination and my inherent stubbornness kept me coming back in the beginning because I was like, I'm gonna catch a fish. I have to figure it out and catch a fish. And I did, I eventually did. It took a lot of learning. I did, I had a lot of really good mentors that I was really lucky to have, and I did a lot on my own, uh, made a lot of mistakes and learned that way. You know, I was setting the hook upstream for a very long time. Um, once I figured that out, I started catching more fish for sure.
SPEAKER_00Did you have a lot of bites and then not Lanac?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I was like catch these fish, and I learned to set downstream and it was like world-changing to me at the time.
SPEAKER_00Um, that's good.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, I it just it just really stuck with me. Um, and it's really cool because it did change, change my life. I mean, it sounds dramatic, right? But it did. I wouldn't be where I am today without it, you know.
SPEAKER_00It's definitely true. It's uh it's a life-changing thing. You go in one direction, and like I said, you change majors and now you're into art and fly fishing art and all those things. I was gonna ask you this, but you kind of already answered it, I guess. That you know, do you remember anything from that period of time when you're starting out that was a light bulb moment or a game changer for you? You mentioned the hook sets. That's a frustrating thing for people. Yeah. I learned a lot about nymphing when I was in Colorado. I don't know if that was something that did you start off nymphing or dry fly fishing and make the change, or how did like which style did you kind of I don't know if that's the right word, style or you know, which technique I guess did you were you introduced to and then how did those transitions happen?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I mainly started with dry flies because I learned in the summer. I learned in like the spring summer, which in Colorado is the best time to fish your dry flies. Um it's also easier, right? So if you're fishing a single dry and you don't know what you're doing, that's much easier than figuring out a nymph rig. And that was something that was like really tricky for me in the beginning, I remember, is learning like when you're setting up a nymph rig, like what's your distance between your flies? How do you know that? How do you know how much tidbit to do between your flies? Where's your split shot go? When do you put on split shot? How deep do you put your indicator? Like, it's just so many more competitions.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_02And then the dry flies, it's like one fly, it's easy to cast, really hard to tangle. So the nymph was like another can of worms. And when I figured that out, I was like, I got it. When I finally nymphed on my own, I was like, I really got it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I felt similarly. Colorado really taught me the importance of nymphing in general, but then also the size of the flies that I was using, and I really having to just suck it up and get used to fishing smaller flies if I want to catch fish because it's just I can't fish like these big flies I used to fish in Montana and have success on the South Platte.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00All right. Okay, before we go into the Pooder River, which is I I want to ask you some questions about that. Now I'd like to hear a little bit about I'm curious about the origin story of the art, then. So you're in high school, you're introduced to fly fishing, you're fly fishing through how the rest of high school and into college, I assume. You go to school at CSU, and now you're fishing at CSU on the Pooder River. At some point in there, you change majors, but you're fishing. When does the art start for you? I assume you're an artistic kid and stuff, but when do you start like painting and yeah?
SPEAKER_02I mean, the whole storyline, it's just really interesting how it just kind of snowballed. But like a brief synopsis is you know, I started fly fishing very end of high school, right before I graduated, and then I went to CSU. And I started in environmental engineering at CSU because I just knew that I like really liked the outdoors. Didn't know really what I wanted to major in, which is pretty typical when you first go to college. And so I figured out pretty quick that that wasn't for me. So I hopped around a couple majors a little bit and ended up in the Warner College, which is their like natural resource college at CSU. And I went into wildlife biology because again, I just knew I wanted to be outside. And then I went on a fishing trip to uh Gunnison in the fall to fish for kokini. I mean, this was my first time ever going down there, ever fishing for kokini. And at the same time, I was in a course in college and I had to write a paper on any species, any species at all. And it was right when I came back, and so I was like, oh, like koke, you know, I just fished for these. I'd never, I don't know anything about them. And so I started researching kokini salmon and then just kind of like went down a rabbit hole learning about, you know, the salmon in Alaska, salmon in Pacific Northwest, learning about their life cycle, the conservation issues, how important they are to ecosystems, like all of it. And I was so fascinated by the salmon. I just, I was like, this is it. I this is what I want to study, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. Like it just, I was obsessed. And so then I switched my major to fisheries because I actually had a professor tell me we were at this, it's called Mountain Campus. CSU does it, so you go and spend a month at their mountain campus, which is up the Puder Canyon, and you kind of do a little bit of every natural resource major every day. So you like learn a little bit about forestry, learn a little bit about wildlife, etc. And we had a fisheries portion, and we were finding bugs in the stream with like a net, and everyone else left when the instruction was done. And I was just sitting down there like all afternoon, just like looking at the bugs in the stream, and it was just fascinating to me. And a professor came up to me and was like, you know, you can major in that, right? You can major in fisheries, and I was like, What? And it was this whole like world-changing moment for me where I was like, This is like I love the river, I love the bugs, I love the fishing. Now I'm obsessed with salmon. This is just all like falling into place. So that was what led me to change my major and then back to the art because that was kind of a full long way to talk about it. But I've always painted when I was a kid. I mean, I wasn't a prodigy painting kid by any means, but I always drew, always painted, always just liked art. Um, and then at the same time that I started fly fishing, I started painting more. Um, and I was painting a lot of landscapes, and then I just started painting fish because I was like, why not? Why don't I try a rainbow trout? Why don't I try a salmon now that I love them so much? And I shifted into fish, and then I just became fish obsessed in every aspect of my life.
SPEAKER_00So you started painting more in college while you're while you're going through this? Yeah, but you have a background as you know, you've always kind of been artistic, and then you have a background in painting, so it's not like you just had to Google like where do I buy paints, or you know, you have an idea about what's going on. And then so this starts in college and then it continues a little bit after college.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so all throughout college I I started painting fish um while you're doing all the school stuff, yeah, and then really just got so into fish in every part of my life, like learning about them in school, painting them because it gave me a way to like study the tiny little details that I wasn't didn't have the time to see on the river, right? Or like, you know, I would learn about fish in school and then when I was done with class for the day, go paint fish and learn even more about them through you know, painting them and bringing them to life. And I just I loved it.
SPEAKER_00That's a super good point because first of all, I I hadn't said this yet, but your art is wonderful, it's beautiful. It's something that one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because I'm like, look at this gal is making amazing art and she's out fishing, and we're gonna talk more about that later. But yeah, I saw this and I'm like, man, I I would love to talk to her. But um, so your art is wonderful. If people haven't seen it, they're they're gonna check that out, I'm sure. But the details of it. That's something that you see in your art. You're like, there's a lot of detail into it. Yeah, I wouldn't call it like I don't know, I don't want to label your art, but it doesn't seem like you're trying to capture realism or something, but it's like but the details are there. Is that fair?
SPEAKER_02I don't I mean, I'm not I don't know how to describe my art either. Um I can see the details.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, I I think it's cool. And now now hearing this story, like ah, light bulb goes on, but that makes sense because she's in the weeds in school, like studying. Oh, what does that even do? Right. Like, so I can't not put that in there. That's the part of the fish that does this. Like, yeah, whereas Jason would be like, I I would just paint right past that. Like, I don't even know what that is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, my art's very influenced by my fisheries science background. I think especially because my art really picked up at the same time that I was in the throes of earning a degree in fisheries. So, and then in my free time I was fishing, so it was just like everything was fish all the time. Um, I think I was a little influenced by that. But yeah, and at some point along the way, you know, I started sharing my art a little bit on social media. People liked it, and I was like, this is really cool, let's see where this goes. And I just started creating more. I opened up for a commission, so I was doing a lot of custom work and it just kind of rolled from there.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna talk more about that later, that process of the business aspect of it and kind of the balancing act that you did and do as an artist. I want to get into that, like we talked about before the show. Before we move on to the Pooder River, though, we're gonna talk a little bit about your experience on the Pooder. I want to ask, did you ever think about majoring in art or studying art? Or is that something you've ever crossed your mind? Or is that just like for me when I was a kid, if I had said I want to study art and be an artist, like my world? Now, this is I mean, not probably 35 years ago, but it would have been like saying, I want to try and go into outer space. Like it would not even what are you talking about, man? Yeah, did you get those vibes when you were growing up, or did you ever think about that?
SPEAKER_02Or I honestly didn't, and my family's pretty artistic, yeah, and definitely like when I was growing up fostered creativity, go weird little side fact about me as I was into music when I was little, um, and I played the accordion for I don't know, eight years of my life.
SPEAKER_00That's cool, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like, but so random, right? So I was always doing creative things, um, I was always very creative, but at the same time, I've always been very science-minded. Like, I was in the science fair, I won the science, I loved the science fair, leaked out about it. I was really good at school, like I just really loved learning. So my mind was always I really loved science and I loved learning and I loved college. The thing I miss about college is sitting down and doing my homework, you know, like it which is not common, but there's just that part of my brain really loves it. So I have a very creative side of me, and I also have a very little bit of a nerdy, science-loving part of me. And so I always wanted to major in something that I could be very scientific, learn about if that makes sense, you know.
SPEAKER_01That makes total sense, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Majoring. So my art is all self-taught, and so I never did any schooling on my art, it was trial and error. Do it enough times it gets better, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00That's a big thing. Do it enough times it gets better. But there's also technical stuff you learn, don't you think? Like you learn, you learn like, oh, that's not gonna work. Like, I have to like dilute this paint with uh medium. The first time I picked up oil pan, I'm like, why is it not flowing beautifully? Yeah, you know, but yeah, if you learn that probably like day one in art school, probably but yeah, probably. Well, uh that's cool that you say that. It sounds like a really awesome good news story about college. What you described to me is what I hope college is like for every person. Like that they go to college, they experience different things, they're able to kind of find a path, their interests all align, and they get to a place. It's not a story that I hear very often. Lots of times, it's like people just bump around and they're like, I graduate with a degree that I don't use, or I like it's not influence my work now or anything. I was gonna ask, like, what do you think about that? Like going to college, not knowing what you want to do, and maybe going into college with a better idea of what you think you want to do. But it sounds like you already kind of had that enough in your brain that like it makes sense for you. And certainly your story is like I said, a success story of someone who goes to college and has an amazing experience, it sounds like so. Shout out to CSU, I guess. I mean, it sounds like they found the path, they put you in all the right places at all the right times, and probably a lot of that has to do with you and your personality and taking advantage of those opportunities. But I just think that I don't know, I think it's commendable. I just want to acknowledge that you went to college and crushed it and like came out with something that's useful to you and what you like to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I did have an interesting college experience. I I mean, I I'm glad I went. I think too often people go to college and you're expected to know what you want to do for the rest of your life when you're 18, 19, that's my point.
SPEAKER_00That's what I'm saying. It's so unfair, it's so not normal.
SPEAKER_02I started in engineering. I'm horrible at math. You know, I'm good at science, but I'm horrible at math. Yeah, I just picked something. But I actually ended up, I didn't graduate in four years. Um it took me, I think, five and a half, I want to say. It took me longer because I did bounce around so much. I was very lucky that I found a passion when I was in college that could also be used as a degree. Full transparency, I don't use my degree. Um I bug to I mean, you sort of do.
SPEAKER_00Like what's the official degree? Fisheries?
SPEAKER_02Fisheries biology.
SPEAKER_00Okay, but I mean it totally influenced your art.
SPEAKER_02It does. And I'm not I'm glad that I I went and I loved it. Um maybe someday, right?
SPEAKER_00But you're not a fisheries biologist.
SPEAKER_02And I've never I've never worked in that field since graduating. Um so to be clear, I don't want people to think that I just four years and now I'm fisheries biologist and everything rainbows. And I also uh I graduated from Oregon State, and so I didn't actually graduate from CSU. So even slightly more non-traditional, I transferred from Oregon or to Oregon State from CSU I think three years in because well, one I found the salmon and I loved that, wanted to.
SPEAKER_00Then you moved out there?
SPEAKER_02I didn't move out there, so that's where it gets a little bit more non-traditional. Um and people have opinions about this part, but uh I did it online. So I earned the rest of my degree through their e-campus program. So Oregon State has one of the top uh e-campus programs in the country, and they obviously have better programs for salmon and everything related to that than CSU does. Um and I hated going to class. It's not that I hated going to class, but I was really bad at it.
SPEAKER_00I would I thought you said you were good at school and you loved your homework and like I was a good student and I was bad at school. Truth comes out.
SPEAKER_02I had to go fishing.
SPEAKER_00Like I Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I was gonna say, well, more time for fishing, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I found this e-campus program, and it's not for everybody, but it was perfect for me because I would go in my truck and I would have, you know, I had my truck built out, and I would just go out on these like week, two-week long fishing trips while I was in college with my hotspot and like go to school on the river because you don't have to like attend a class. So I would just go to the river, go fishing, and then do my college, and it was amazing. Um, and I have a funny story about that of I was in Wyoming on a fishing trip.
SPEAKER_01Uh send it.
SPEAKER_02I was in this uh fish lab class, and so because it was remote, they like mail you all the supplies for a lab, and we had a fish dissection that I had to do, and so we ended up in we ended up in this like random hotel in nowhere, Wyoming, because we got caught in like a blizzard, and I had my fish dissection with me, and I completed like this entire fish dissection in some random hotel in Wyoming, and I was like, this is how I want to do college, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_02A little non-traditional, but I am lucky that I found my passion and you know it worked out for me, but right.
SPEAKER_00So definitely non-traditional. I'm glad you told that part of the story because it was it's cool. I think that's also cool that you were able to kind of do that. So I guess do you think I didn't think we were gonna talk about this so much and it's fine, but like, do you think that I mean, do you think that if you had not gone to college right away and you had gone fishing more that you would have gone into college with like a more focused thing? Or do you think like, no, I had to have that college experience? That that's what gave it to me.
SPEAKER_02I think it all worked out exactly as it was supposed to. Good answer.
SPEAKER_00Good answer. Let's talk okay, that's a good answer. Fair enough. All right. Um, let's talk fishing. Let's talk about the Pooder River and that experience. So you're that's the the river that flows through CSU, right? Fort Collins. What do you think makes that besides kind of the origin story of your fly fishing? Is there anything about that river that's uniquely special or maybe something you notice that when people come out to visit they are surprised by with the pooter?
SPEAKER_02It's a really cool fishery. I love it. It's a Freestone River, so it's not a tail water, which is great. Um, it's got a very productive bug life. They've got really good hatches all summer long, and it's really cool. I like it because there's a ton of public water. So the majority of the pooder is public, which in Colorado we're pretty lucky. We have a lot of that, but I do it's very like long stretches of public water, so you're not hopping around these weird private spots, and it's very long, and the access is amazing. And I miss that about living by the pooder is that you know it gets busy, especially as far collins gets busier and just everywhere Colorado gets busier, but I there's always space for everybody, you know, and the access is great, and it flows from the very top of Cameron Pass all the way down, so it's a huge stretch of river, and it's got a lot of different structures to it. So it's got small pools and great little runs for hopper-dropper fishing and dry flies in the summer, and it's also got some sections that have much deeper pools, so you can throw streamers, you can throw, you know, deep nymph rigs. So it's kind of got a little bit of everything, and it's a great river. It had the big fire, I can't remember the year, but the Cameron Peak fire went through the Pooder Canyon. Um, and definitely, I I mean it burned. When you go up there now, it's crazy to see the effects of that. It's bounced back amazing. It's been really great, and I nobody was really sure after that. Uh, there was a ton of sediment in the river, and it took it a little bit, but it's I mean, the fish are happy up there. Uh, the fishing's still really good. So it's cool. It's really cool to watch it like go through all those changes and start to bounce back and still be fishing really well. It's great.
SPEAKER_00As a fisheries biologist, what's your thoughts on the bounce back? And I say that, you know, I hear a lot about the importance of different things to trout fisheries, and I don't know a ton about it, but I've always heard that the habitat is like one of the most important things. That the it's not really as much about catch and release and things like that, but the habitat that allows fish to kind of to be able to bounce back. So I don't know. Were you surprised by that? I think those are cool stories when you hear like something happens, there's a fire, these things happen in Yellowstone, or you know, there's lots of fires these days, but there's always been a lot of fires, I guess. But I don't know. You've got a background in that. I wonder, were you surprised? Were you kind of like that? Kind of makes sense. I mean, that sounds like a good news story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can't say I was surprised. I mean, I was I don't know how to say it. I was happy, you know. Obviously, anytime like you have something like that happen in a fishery that you really care about, there's always a wonder. A lot of it, I think, has to do with how healthy the fishery is going into that event, right?
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02It's always been a healthy fishery. There's really good bug life in that river, and it's freestone, yeah, which is great, but it doesn't, I don't want to say doesn't because our world is changing and the climate is changing a lot, but it doesn't suffer low flows in the way that some of our other rivers in Colorados do. So, like in the low hot months, and you still have to be careful on the Pooder. Absolutely, I've had days up there where the river temperature gets a little too warm, changing out there. But in comparison to places that are managed, like Decker's, for example, right? Like those are managed by Denver Water and they're heavily pressured. The Pooder River is not secret by any means, but it also doesn't seem to see the same amount of pressure as some of the South Platte does.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, I mean the South Platte is right there.
SPEAKER_02So that makes a difference.
SPEAKER_00You got all of Denver.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think that that makes just a huge difference going into it because I mean Cheesman had that huge flooding event.
SPEAKER_00That's what I was thinking about, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that released so much sediment into the river, and that was like a big concern. Um, and part of that just has to do with what was the state of the fishery before that happened. So I think that that helped the pooter bounce back a lot, was just how great it was before the fire.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, no, that's a good answer. That's a that's uh thoughtful that I wouldn't have thought those types of things. Is there anything that you've learned on the pooder that stands out to you as particularly kind of like, let me say this a lot of us have these times in our lives when we get to fish a lot, right? So I I there's seasons that everyone goes through where like you know they're fishing all the time and then maybe they move or they get a job or they're maybe not able to fish as much. Like, do you remember that sprint in your life and some of the takeaways, the big light bulb moments that you had during that? I assume you had that time where you were just kind of fishing all the time. Is there s there takeaways where you're like, ah, that really these things really helped me?
SPEAKER_02It was just the consistency of just going out all the time, you know. And I was lucky when I lived in Fort Collins to have a fishery in my backyard that was like that and have that type of access to the river. It's not something I take for granted, and I think it definitely influenced my journey in fly fishing a lot, just having that immediate access. I do remember the first time that I caught like a decent sized brown on a streamer by myself in the pooder, and that was a huge accomplishment to me because going out by yourself obviously is way harder than when you're going out with your friends or you know, your mentors. And so when you finally like start tying on the fly yourself, picking the fly yourself, you know, if you're doing an infrig, like figuring out the tip at distance, just from start to finish of catching the fish by yourself, it's so gratifying. And those are the moments I remember the most of when it was by myself and I was able to be like, I did that, like I picked that fly, like I found the spot to fish, like I found the fishy water, I made the cast, all of that. Those are definitely like my most standout moments when I was fishing, is when it finally started to click a little bit, and I was like, okay, like I'm I'm getting confidence. And once you start having that confidence, I think it's so important. Yeah, like if you go out on the river being, you know, I know what I'm doing, or I I feel like I know what I'm doing, because none of us really ever know anything. But if you go out being like, I know I can catch a fish on my own, like I got this, versus going out and being like, I don't even, you know, I don't know what flies to use, I don't know what to fish. I think it's just like it makes you a better angler to even just feel like you can go out and do it by yourself. And that was the light bulb moment for me that I had.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Do you tie flies?
SPEAKER_02Not yet. Okay. I want to. It's better than that.
SPEAKER_00This question, that's okay. I always, yeah, this always comes up in my brain when I asked this question. But the question doesn't, you don't have to tie flies to answer the question. I don't, I don't think so. But I'm a slightly below average fly tire. Is there a couple flies that if I tied and I came out there to fish with you on the pooter, that you would be like, these are some kind of minimum material, simple flies that are kind of confidence flies for you that you use out there that if I brought out there, you would say, All right, Jason, those are decent. We would fish these.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean the basics, like hair's ears, flashback hair's ears, always uh peasant tails, you know. I'm a big fan of my favorite, probably. Not even just for the pooder, but for you know, a lot of places is a hopper dropper with gachubby on top and a pertagon on the bottom.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02It just always, I don't know, it just always works. I love pertagons. They're like one of my favorite. Flies under a hopper dropper, it's the right amount of weight. Can get them on jig hooks. They're always catching fish for me. And they're easy to tie, I think. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00No, yeah. I mean, if you can look at it and say that looks easy, it probably is. And everything that you just said is pretty easy. Even the chubby, that's my go-to kind of any hopper, any kind of big fly like salmon fly, different colors, different sizes, chubby. It's pretty close for a guy like me, you know. But I know there's a lot of fly tires out there that are throwing their hands up. Yeah, oh come on, man.
SPEAKER_02I've never even tried.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that's fair.
SPEAKER_02It seems more simple than you know, some of the other more complicated ones.
SPEAKER_00I think the Perdagon, I also like a Pergon on a hopper dropper. And I think why I like it, or or if a fly like that, is because it's so streamlined that when it's underneath the dry fly, I don't feel like it's dragging as much, you know. Like I'll use a thinner tippet, and then whatever fly I put on underneath, I try and make, I don't know, less buggy or less more streamlined, you know. And I feel like uh a pheasant tail would have less resistance in the water than a hare's air, and a pertagon would have even less resistance than a pheasant tail. And I think that matters that it's not being dragged, you know, being caught up in the current as much. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02It's a goat's for me.
SPEAKER_00Okay. That's fair. That's a good answer. How about like you told a fish story, but do you have any memorable fish that stand out in your brain from the pooter that are either like I don't know, fish with a special person, had a great day, or uh caught this fish of a lifetime. Or probably most desirable story would be I had this fish that I caught that I didn't land and I learned something from it, or the one that got away story. Do you have a one that got away story? That's what I'm looking for, really.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I have a lot of those.
SPEAKER_00Um well, the one that sticks with you, one that burns in your heart. Like every time you go to the pooder, you think of it. Like I have that. I have that fish that like I think about it almost every day. I'm like, dude, I can't believe I lost that fish.
SPEAKER_02Um, I can't say I have any from the pooder, but any will do then. I don't know. It's just a really special river to me, just because of you know, that's my origin. That's where I started fly fishing. And I don't get to go back there as often as I'd like these days. So when I do get there, it's even more special to me.
SPEAKER_00And now you're in Denver.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So is that like where's your go-to now? You're more a South Platy?
SPEAKER_02More no, I don't tell me where. All right, don't you? I I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time on this alpha. You don't go honest. Um I do occasionally, but it's not it's not my favorite. It's not my go-to. I pretty much sit around waiting for Alpine Lake season. Um that's my go-to. Yeah, that's uh I that's my favorite to do in the summertime. And then yeah, some of the bigger rivers, I mean, obviously, like up the I-70 corridor, there's some good spots. I don't spend a ton of time on the South Platte. No hate to it, but no, I get it.
SPEAKER_00So do you go still like to go back to the pooder when you get a chance?
SPEAKER_02I do, yeah. And when I do go back, it's it's always like a little, you know, bittersweet. Like I miss it. I loved living next to that river. Um, and I'm really grateful that I did. I think that was really special and something that not everybody has in their backyard.
SPEAKER_00So that's true. If you could only fish the pooder two days of the year, which two days would you fish it and how would you fish it?
SPEAKER_02Post-runoff, like you know, June, July, whenever the runoff slows down.
SPEAKER_00That's the beauty of living there because you're like, oh, it's over. I'm right here.
SPEAKER_02It's also beautiful in the fall, especially when you get a little bit higher up the canyon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02There's all the aspen trees, and it's just stunning.
SPEAKER_00How are you gonna fish it on those days?
SPEAKER_02Uh definitely hopper, dropper, or dries in June, July, depending on, you know, especially in the evenings, probably switch over to, you know, a caddis or something of the sort. And then in the fall, you can still get them on, you know, the hopper droppers. If you can't tell, that's like my favorite thing to fish. Um or just like a simple nymph rig. Or little streamers. If you find some of the deeper pools, they'll hit little streamers for sure. I've had good days on streamers in the pooder.
SPEAKER_00I like the hopper dropper too, especially I just like that soft land, you know, that's like a soft indicator. And if there's even a chance, like if there's big bugs around, I I like doing that as well. Do you have a favorite way of fishing? Is it kind of whatever it takes, or is it like I oh you the hopper dropper, you're gonna go to the hopper dropper.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, it's definitely my favorite. Um hopper dropper. I do like streamer fishing. Um, I'm still learning a lot about streamer fishing. I haven't, I can't say I've really put in the time. You know, I've caught some fish on streamers, I've definitely thrown them, but I haven't dedicated the time to say, you know, for this trip for seven days, I'm only throwing streamers, which I think I've got to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I want to do it, I want to get better at it because there's a lot that goes into being really good at at fishing streamers, and I can't say that I'm I'm there, but uh streamers are fun. Um, but Hopper Dropper is probably just my all-time favorite or dries. I mean, it's just I love watching fish come up and and eat them.
SPEAKER_00Um are there any hatches that that stand out to you? Is there any like that uh on the poodre that you particularly enjoy or remember?
SPEAKER_02The salmon flies are cool when they come around. They get a decent salmon fly hatch. They let's see, there's your classic, like caddis, mayflies, some drakes, green drakes. Pretty sure.
SPEAKER_00When's the salmon fly hatch typical? Is it more early or late?
SPEAKER_02Honestly, I don't even I couldn't tell you the exact time of the hatch on the pooder. I remember one year and I didn't know that they even hatched up there. This was when I first started fishing, and I was I wasn't even up there to fish, I was actually painting by the river, and this was like back in my early days, and a salmon fly like landed on my hand, and I didn't even know what salmon flies were at this point. And I remember taking a picture and being like, This is like a really cool bug, and then showing it to one of my buddies when I got back to town and into service, and he was like, Oh, like it's a salmon fly, and I'd never even heard of them, and I was just painting by the river, and I was like, This is really cool. That was the first time I ever experienced them flying up around there. I've never like dedicated, like I've never chased the salmon fly hatch on the pooder. I've gone elsewhere for it, but yeah, I've never, you know, but they do get really good hatches all summer long. Like I said, I just the bug life up there is just thriving all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's cool.
SPEAKER_02Which is really cool.
SPEAKER_00Do you have a most valuable resource that you had when you were learning to fish up there? Like uh, I don't know, book or a video or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Um, I had just all of the people that I knew in Fort Collins. So the people who taught me how to fly fish, and then the guys over at St. Pete's, the fly shop in town, are great. All of them are super knowledgeable, they're super friendly, they were really helpful to me and when I started learning, and yeah, they were a really, really good resource in Fort Collins for that too. So shout out St. Pete's.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. To them in the show notes if you like. Just give them uh people heading up there, they can give them give them a call. All right, I think maybe we want to start talking about art. Yeah. Uh is there anything else about the pooter though before we move on? Maybe like any kind of tips or techniques that you think uh that you've picked up that if you were gonna if somebody was gonna go fish the pooter, they're listening to this and they're like, okay, that all sounds good, but give me something I can catch more fish. Which is the opposite of what the show's about, I guess. But but that's not true. We're about catching fish that wait out there. But uh yeah, any tips or techniques or like if I could only pass along two things, like, hey, make sure you do this and make sure you do that.
SPEAKER_02I would just say fish at all. I've definitely caught fish in places that I wouldn't think would have a fish. So I would say, yeah, I would say like don't overlook any specific parts of the river, you know. The more parts of it you fish, the more chances there are that you're gonna catch one. And I've been surprised before on the poodre of where I'm finding fish. So yeah, just fish it all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think fishing the whole river is something that people are kind of hesitant to do sometimes because they find their spots or they're used to a certain way of fishing a certain spot, and they're I think for me, I just kind of forget sometimes that fish move around, you know, like they're all over different parts of the river based on different conditions, and the key is to kind of be able to identify the conditions and then kind of find the parts of the river that you think are good, but you know, you don't you don't always nail it 100%. So if you cover everything, you kind of cover your basis, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Let's talk a little bit more about your art. We hinted about this earlier in the show that we were gonna talk about this, and I want to talk about sort of the transition that you had, you know, into being full-time professional artists and business, and then in and out of that uh place. We talked a lot about this before the show, about what that's been like for you, I guess, uh uh in your journey. I think once we get started, it'll kind of make more sense. But it kind of started, it sounds like it started with your college experience and going into discovering that you like these fish and then beginning to paint. We never really covered this, but what was the motivation to start painting? W were you just inspired by these fish and you want to start painting them, or was it like kind of snowballed because you put that that art out there that has always been there? But once you put it out there, positive reinforcement and that kind of like snowballed, or I'm just curious. I remember the moment that I started, like I went down in my basement and I was like, okay, I have no more excuses. Like, I'm not flying full-time in the Air Force. I have time, I have all the materials that were gifted to me a while ago, but I haven't used, they've been all boxed up, and I unboxed them. And I guess I don't even know myself why I did that. But I you know, but I do you have that moment or that time or that reason or anything like that where you're like, no, I'm gonna start I'm gonna start painting more.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. I started Painting more, and then I just really loved it and kept going with it. Um, like I said earlier, you know, I was painting during high school and college, just you know, some landscape stuff, um, just to paint, just because I enjoyed it, it was a creative outlet for me, but I was never serious about it. Like it was just I painted when I painted, and then that was it. And then when I started painting the fish, I just really enjoyed the part that I still love most about it is that when you're practicing catch and release, obviously, you don't have very much time with the fish after you catch them. So you catch them, you admire them for a second, you know, and then you let them go. And I I find a lot of times that then when I'm like looking back at pictures of them or whatever, you find the details that you don't notice on the river. So you it gives me time to kind of reflect on the details that I miss a lot of the times. Um, I'll paint a lot of fish that I've caught or my friends have caught. And when you're painting it at that level of studying every little detail, you start noticing things like, oh, like look at the spot on its eyelid, or I didn't even realize, you know, how the blue of the cheek runs through the body, or you know, the spot pattern on the adipose fin. Like all those things are are hard to pick up on in the short amount of time you have with the fish on the river. So it really gave me time to admire them for as long as I wanted while still practicing catch catch and release. So I did love that about it. And it also in reverse, I found that when I started painting fish and I started painting them more, I was more attentive to the details when I was on the river. Yeah. Like I was looking at them through a different lens than I was when I wasn't painting them all the time. Um, and I thought that that was really cool. Like, I feel like I have an even deeper appreciation for them after I started painting them all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I th that was my next question. And I find this to be true in my art or just when I read about artists and things, it's more it's the way they're seeing the world, you know, they see details, they see things, they're like, oh, that's cool. That would be a cool photograph. Or what if I took all these boxes and made a horse out of them? You know, like they're just like people they have this like they see things like that, and you know, you see the fish, and you're like, oh, that's a cool, like you said, that's a cool fin or a cool gill plate, and that would be what if I blew that up and made it into a painting, and so that's really cool. And I think that's a benefit of the business that you're in or the the work that you're producing that that's super cool. And just appreciating like everything around you.
SPEAKER_02Which is amazing, yeah. Yeah, you have a deeper appreciation for things when you go out. I feel like when you look at it through the eyes of an artist, whether that's a photographer or a painter or even like a writer, any sort of creative box sculptor, which I just invented.
SPEAKER_00What about I mean, do you ever go out and on purpose and say, I'm gonna get some a photo or I'm gonna find something, or or maybe you catch a fish and you're like taking pictures of things that you might normally take pictures of, or is that something that you do that that is um intentional?
SPEAKER_02A little bit. I find that the best inspiration for me comes when I'm not trying to seek it, you know. Like I will be on a trip and I'll definitely notice things, you know, that I'm like, oh, that would make a cool painting, or I'm really inspired by that, or the light is really pretty right now, that kind of thing. Yeah. And I'll take those pictures, I'll I'll jot down the idea that comes to me. Um, sometimes I end up using it in the studio, sometimes I don't. But I don't find myself going out a lot with the intention of seeking inspiration explicitly. Yeah, I find inspiration when I go out, and that's how I find the things that inspire me to paint, but I don't set out on a tripping, like the goal of today going out to the river or going on this trip is to find inspiration. Yeah, I just find that it comes to me naturally when I'm in those spaces and just enjoying the river or enjoying the fishing or the light or soaking it in. It just is part of the process.
SPEAKER_00Speaking of inspiration, how important is inspiration to your work versus how much of it is inspiration versus how much of it is this is what I do. I just get up and I go paint and do the thing, you know?
SPEAKER_02That's something that I've been grappling with a lot recently. I find that when you're making it a business, and that's a very interesting part of it, when it's a business, you tend to fall into these parts of I'm painting this because I have to, or I have to go paint today, I have to produce a brown trout, I have to do this, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then when I'm sitting down in my studio and I'm saying, I'm painting this because I feel inspired and I feel called to paint this, that's when my best art comes out a lot of the time. And that was like a realization that I had recently, where you know, I realize like the comparison of a painting that I do because I should paint a brown trout, right? I I should go to my studio paint this so that I can sell it, versus the I don't care, I'm gonna paint a bird because I saw a very beautiful bird and I feel inspired to paint it. And the difference in just the creation of those paintings is big. So that's something I've been trying to do a lot more is really see like what I feel truly inspired by and create from those feelings rather than create from a feeling of like necessity of I should go to my studio and paint today. It's a very interesting part of being an artist that also sells your art.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's challenging, I would imagine. Because there's also the once you have that piece in your brain and you're whatever you know, let's say it came from someplace other than let's say it's the bird that you saw, right? And you're gonna paint that bird. There's probably days that you're painting that you don't feel like painting, like you're just like, I'm gonna go down there and paint the bird because I guess uh it does the inspiration wane? I mean, is there a point when you're down there and you're like, all right, well, today I'm gonna paint the bird because you know, a week ago I was like, this bird is awesome, but now like for like you're looking at the painting, you're like, ah, I don't know about this. I mean, do I start over what I do? But you gotta kind of like push through that a little bit. And that I would guess that there's a little bit of you that is like, well, I'm just gonna do the thing because I gotta finish this painting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, there's absolutely there's ebbs and flows. I mean, it's anything creative, I mean, life in general, right? You have these moments of just overflowing creativity. You feel inspired, you feel motivated, like you're just in the zone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then you have moments where it's not like that. And I think that there is like for me, I think everybody's different. Every artist is different. Me personally, like, there are times when you have to push through those feelings of I'm not loving the painting right now, like, I'm not feeling super stoked on going and painting it. And there have been times when I felt that, and I pushed through anyways. I'm like, nope, like I'm gonna go work on this. I'm gonna go sit in my studio for the day. And at the end of the day, I'm I'm feeling inspired again. I'm like stoked on the painting. You know, we kind of get over that pump. There are also times when I do that and it doesn't help, you know, and the inspiration doesn't come back, and you really just need to step away for three days, and then you come back and you're like, okay, now I feel ready. So it's interesting. There's a fine line between like pushing through that roadblock, and then also knowing when it's time to like just take a step back and give it a little space. That's a big part of being an artist, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes sense. Let's talk about that, the stepping back and kind of like I don't know, some of the challenges that you had with the full-time business and where that left you, where that leaves you now, I guess. Is that a good way to say it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, in an effort of full transparency, I graduated college and went full-time with the art business for I had it about four years. I was a hundred percent full-time supporting myself on the art, which was amazing.
SPEAKER_00That'd have been super exciting, right?
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, I mean, I left college and I was like, if there's a time to try, it's now, you know, like I I'll I'm just gonna go for it. Like, I've been sharing my art. Um, people are very receptive. I'm really loving what I'm doing. I'm doing this like custom work. Um, it was opening up doors and opportunities for me that I wouldn't have had otherwise. Um, and it was really great. I'm really grateful to have done it for that long um and to have had that opportunity. I am still obviously doing the art. I'm still having my art business. I'm no longer full-time with it, though. I did go and get another job recently. I'm in like August of last year. So that's been interesting to navigate, and that's like a big transition in my life, but it was ultimately a positive one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was really interesting to just watch my creativity over four years, what it looks like to try and support yourself a hundred percent on an art income.
SPEAKER_00Um you have to have that entrepreneur, like like gene. You have to have like that a little stubborn. I'm making lots of money, like I'm making no money. Like I've it's ups and downs. So not everybody loves that, I guess, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and for me, I loved it, and I will forever do my art, and I will continue to have my art business, and that's absolutely still part of my life, but I needed a step back from it. The constant need, it's interesting too, because then you wrap social media into it. Because obviously these days, I mean, social media is the best way to get out there, right? It's the best way for people to see your work, um, it's the best way to sell your work. There's obviously options to sell in person, like markets and that kind of thing, and art shows. Um, and I did a lot of that, but on social media, you have the opportunity to basically curate an audience that is exactly your niche, right? So it's everybody, or I guess most people on my social media following like fly fishing art. That's right, that's why they follow me. And so you can kind of curate like your own audience and target them specifically. So then you bring in the social media part, and there's a big part of social media, especially with artists, and it gives you this pressure to constantly produce, right? Like you have to be posting X amount of times a week, you have to be creative. So it makes this feeling of like I have to just crank out art, right? For social media, because it rewards that behavior on, you know, with the algorithm and all of that. And it got really exhausting to me personally, and it was really like robbing me of my creativity and the reason why I really enjoyed painting. And I started to feel this like I need to paint, I need to put out art. Um, I would want to explore other avenues, like maybe I want to paint birds, right? And I couldn't because I have to put out fish paintings all the time, constantly, forever. I can't take a break because not only does my business depend on it, but my income depends on it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that was really hard for me. I mean, that was ultimately the decision that led me to saying, I need to step back, I've burnt out, and it's it's becoming more of like a I have to go to my studio and paint instead of a I want to go to my studio and paint.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And I really wanted to protect that creativity and the reason why I love painting and loved it in the first place and what I get out of it. So yeah, selfishly, I needed to protect that. So I went and got something that pays the bills. The best thing I ever did. It was hard to make that decision, but it was the best one I've ever made.
SPEAKER_00So I have so much to say about that, or not to say, but more questions, follow-on questions. Um first of all, I just want to say that I think it takes a lot of courage to say what you just said because there's a lot of pressure that our creative that want to pursue that to be like, well, I need to go all in. Have you ever read the book The War of Art?
SPEAKER_01Mm-mm. Or heard of it?
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, Stephen Pressfield wrote this book called The War of Art, and then there's a follow-up called Going Pro. And his thesis is like, you just gotta go all in. You gotta burn the ships, you gotta just go, nothing else. There's no other, like you have to be all in or all. And so I think that for artists there's this kind of pressure, which is amplified by social media, as you said, to where like you're seeing Piper and all her art and all her stuff, and you're getting the highlight reel. Just like everybody kind of knows that it's the highlight reel now, but you don't see that there's they have another life, or maybe they have another job, or maybe they have other things going on in their life. And I think it's important for artists to see that it's okay to do both, I guess, that you can continue to be an artist and continue to make money from your art if you want to, if you choose to, but also it doesn't have to be the whole thing, just like fishing, right? Like people have seasons in their lives where they're able to fly fish more than others. Some people choose to fly fish their whole life and that's awesome, but other people they don't go down that road, right? It's just it's just not in the cards for them for whatever reason. There's other things in life that they also enjoy to do, and so I think it's okay to to be an artist and not feel bad that you also have seasons in your art where whether it's fishing or painting or photography, you can have that part of you and not have it be all the time and still be like a great artist or still progress as an artist, which is what I would define. Like you're always pushing yourself and getting better and and trying to look inside and make something that you're proud of, right? That that you are proud of that you made for yourself, which is a whole nother thing, right? Like you want to make it for you. That's what the good art comes from. It's like I made this, I'm sharing it with you. I don't care if you like it, because it's yeah, I made it for me. Like, this is my journal entry of my thing that I made. It's great if people like it, but I have to make the things that I want to make, right? I think that that's important too. Sounds like you're doing that, which I think is cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I don't want to discourage anybody from trying to become an artist. Well, I mean, we are all artists. You're an artist regardless of anybody ever buys your work, or if you paint once a year, you're still an artist.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And that was something that I had to kind of remind myself of in this transition was there was a feeling of failure that comes with it, right? Of being like, it didn't work, I had to go get another job, right? Like I couldn't support myself on this, or it was too stressful, or whatever. And so you're like, oh man, like I failed at being an artist. And it's like nobody ever fails at being an artist. We're all artists in different ways, and we all have our different avenues of being creative. And whether or not you have a business, whether or not you have a full-time job, whether or not art is your full-time job, doesn't validate you as an artist. But I don't want to discourage anybody from trying it because I am so glad that I did do my art full-time for as long as I did. I'm grateful I had that opportunity. I just want to be transparent because I struggled with that a lot on social media, as I had this list of artists that I looked up to and I was like, oh, well, you know, like so and so made it. Yeah, you know, like so and so is doing it full time, and I don't have any facts to back that up. Like, I they might not even be doing it full time. Because if you look at my Instagram now, I'm not posting pictures of me at my job that's paying the bills, right? So like I just, you know, like it's unless you hear me talk about it, like you wouldn't even know. You would still think that I'm just fishing every day and making all this money from my art. And right, so I think it's important.
SPEAKER_00Paying for my trip to the Seychelles with the paintings that I sell. At least which is possible. It's possible to do that, but yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_02I just think transparency is so important um on social media, and everybody can choose to be as transparent as they want on their pages. I fell victim to it a little bit, you know, of the comparison game. So yeah, in all honesty, I pay my bills that aren't through the art, and it's great, and it doesn't make me any less of an artist. And that's it's just been like a really interesting transition to go through, and I've learned a lot about myself, and I think at the end of the day, like it does come down to painting for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and that was kind of my breaking point when I realized that I was, and it sounds bad to say, I mean, I was painting to sell, right? I was going into my studio with the goal of I'm gonna paint this painting to sell it, instead of I'm gonna paint, you know, I don't know, like a parrot, like you know, like just like if I want to paint it, I'm gonna paint it. So what if nobody likes it? It's for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's awesome. And I wouldn't say that you're discouraging people. I I would say, I mean, you say I don't want to discourage people. If anything, you're encouraging people because you're saying if you have an idea that you maybe want to support yourself with art or and you're in a place where it's not possible, or you don't want to just sell the house and move to a little studio, you know, like it's possible to to have both, and maybe you never go full-time, and that's okay. And that I think that is what I think is cool. I think it's cool to share with people that you can still continue to be an artist and not be full-time as an artist, and you can still go back to full-time. I mean, I don't want to put you in a box or anything like that, but I'm just saying, like, that is really cool because I just think there's a ton of people out there that are looking at you on social media or looking at whoever it is on social media, whatever artist it is, or photographer, or even fly fisher, right? Like, yeah, I know guides that don't guide anymore because I just it I really it's taken the joy of fly fishing out of it for me. So I'm gonna stop guiding because I wanna fish for me. Yeah, it's a similar, maybe not exactly the same, but it's similar. And I I would say the only piece of original art that I have in my art studio is from a fly fishing artist who is painting abstract art. And yeah, even though I'm a fly fishing artist, quote, fly fishing artist, like it's not a painting of a fish that he painted that I have in my room, it's a painting of an abstract, totally like I never like unrelated to fish. It's just paint, you know? Like when I look at it though, I get an emotion, and I'm like, that isn't that's that I get it. Like the light bulb went on. I was like, that's why people like abstract art because of the feeling I have right now. But why I have it is because of what you're saying. Like, because he, even though very famous artist, very famous for painting fish art, made a living a full-time artist, he went to a party, he was like, I'm gonna do abstract because this is the way I'm feeling. And I know I would suspect that he had those kinds of feelings like, well, everybody expects me to paint this, and this is how I've made my money my whole life, and blah blah blah. But you know, if you're really being true to yourself as an artist, you can't. I don't know, I don't know, maybe you can, but I would think you want to go down that road and paint other things. I certainly have that. Like I I there's other things in the horizon that I want to paint that aren't fish, right? And I think it's possible to do that. Uh but if you get into that cycle where it's like, this is how I'm making the money, and yeah, like, dude.
SPEAKER_02It's easy to be put in that box when you're, you know, when you're reliant on it. But yeah, the freedom to just create for the sake of creating is ultimately like what I really wanted back, and that I felt like I lost a little bit along the way. Yeah. Um, and now that I have that, it's just it's the best of both worlds. I mean, it's reconnecting me with my art in a way that I didn't have before. Um, and it's been a very interesting little journey that I've been on.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's great. And I really appreciate you sharing it. And I'm really happy for you that you found the balance and you're proud of where you're at and what you've done, and that you're and most of all, I'm happy that you're still making art. You know, I think that's the most important thing.
SPEAKER_02Artist, I know that that'll never go away.
SPEAKER_00I want to ask you a little bit, I'm curious how you manage. Do you have any habit patterns or like the people who are listening to this that are that are still listening to this are probably artists or people that are interested in this type of thing? So is there anything that you uh discovered like practically uh practical wise or the like or practical advice that you have of like being able to I don't know, habit patterns that you have or ways that you kind of flow into like before your full time and then after your full time where you still are able to make the time? I guess this is like a time management question. Does that make sense? Is it how did that work for you? Was it just natural, like yeah, just paint because I feel like painting? I have my but or was it you had to schedule it, or like how did that work? And now that you're now that you've got this other job, I would imagine that takes up time. So maybe it's not as easy as whenever I feel like it, I just go in there. It has to be more kind of this is when I paint.
SPEAKER_02That's been a very interesting thing to navigate throughout this whole yeah.
SPEAKER_00How did that change? Like, how do I get it done? When do I do the work?
SPEAKER_02Well, before, I mean, when I was doing it full time, I was I mean, I was seven days a week, every single day in my studio. And I would, you know, my studio's in my house, it's just my spare bedroom. I don't have this like gorgeous, beautiful art studio somewhere. But I would wake up, I'd make my call. And I would go sit in my studio and I would be in there all day. And then honestly, I had to schedule time to not be in there. Like I had to schedule, you know, going fishing or hanging out with friends or anything that wasn't being in my studio, I had to schedule in. Um and it's like the opposite problem. Yeah. So now that's right. I'd have to schedule my studio time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, so yeah, now it's definitely like a little bit harder because I have less free time, obviously.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it is more just like, ah, I kind of feel like going in the studio tonight. You know, I have a couple hours to do so. But before it was just all the time. I was just always in there. Yeah. And I've never really had like a structured, I don't I don't have a structured like I'm gonna sit down for X amount of time.
SPEAKER_00Well, sounds like you did. It's just that the structure was I'm gonna go down after my coffee and paint all day. That's that's the that's the structure. That's a good yeah. If you're trying to crush a lot of art, that's a good yeah, uh, that's a good morning routine, I guess, if you want to call it that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So do you now paint in the evenings, I guess? Like when you have time in the evenings or stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, mostly evenings are like my days off. Um, I'll be in there. I do spend a lot of my days off fishing now, especially because it's springtime.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh and the post-runoff stuff is coming that you like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, the lakes are starting to ice off, so that's taking a lot of my free time. But yeah, I do paint a lot in the evenings now, which I really like. It's a nice way to wind down. And it feels a little bit more special now that my time is more limited in my studio. That when I do get to get in there and spend that time on my easel, I feel like I cherish it a little bit more. More grateful for having that space and that time to create now that I don't have it all the time, which is cool.
SPEAKER_00That's cool, that's really cool. I'm just happy you shared the story because I think there's tons of people, myself included, that need to hear that. So yeah, selfishly, I knew like when we talked before the show, and you're like, I kind of want to talk about this. I'm like, yeah, awesome. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Like this podcast is for me, actually.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, yeah, they're kind of all for me, but um what about like I'm really curious. So, I mean, getting into your art, like I told you before, I love it. And can you I don't know, briefly or just walk me through the medium changes that you went through? Because I started in watercolor and then now I'm in oils, and I assume you had a little bit of a you know, changes in mediums, and but also like the painting on the wood, and I mean that is super cool. I know you're not the only person to do that, but it the way that you do it is really cool. I don't know, can you talk about how that happened?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I started with I I mostly painted in acrylic, like even pre-painting fish era.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then I messed around a little bit with gouache, which if you're not familiar and you're listening, it's like a mix between a watercolor and acrylic is the best way to describe it. So it's a more pigmented watercolor. So it paints the same, but it's a little bit brighter.
SPEAKER_00Um and you can put white down on top of things with gouache, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, it's just watercolor is so frustrating for me because and it's it can be very opaque, and you know, that's not my style. I like my bright colors. But yeah, so I messed around with gouache a little bit, and that's pretty much those are my two primary mediums now, are still acrylic um and gouache. I started painting on the wood as a Christmas present. Um, I painted a fish on wood as a as a Christmas present for one of my friends who fished, and I was doing it on the live edge wood that I still use for my round fly paintings. And then I had a friend of a friend who lives in Fort Collins, and he builds furniture out of reclaimed pine beetle kill. Um, and so he has all of the permits and everything. He does the harvesting, the milling, all of that, the processing of the wood. And then I linked up with him and I would just order pieces from him so he could custom make all sorts of sizes for me. And so he was making me all the slabs of wood that I was painting fish on, um, which was really cool. And I was able to offer them as like custom work because I could get them made by him. Uh, so that was really cool. So I did that for a while. Almost exclusively, I was painting with acrylic on the pine beetle kill. Um, and then I started dabbling with the gouache again, and then recently I've kind of transitioned from the acrylic on the pine beetle kill back to acrylic on canvas. So that's kind of where I'm at now. I do a lot of work on canvas now with acrylics. I tried oil paintings for one day, and that was it. They were just very intimidating. There's so many more steps to like sitting down and painting with oils versus sitting down and painting with acrylics. Um I got very overwhelmed. Maybe I'll pick them up again.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I went ugly early on that one, and I just was like, I'm just gonna do what I have to do. I'm gonna just I don't know, just go after it. But uh yeah, I just went after oils because I don't know. I just had a feeling. I just wanted to do it, but okay.
SPEAKER_02I respect people who paint with oils a lot. I can't, it's I don't know.
SPEAKER_00What was challenging about it? Because maybe, you know, like what was it?
SPEAKER_02Just a lot of I mean there's just more to the mediums that you have to mix with the paint and then like the mineral spirits that you rinse the brushes with and like the cleanup, like versus like acrylic, like you squeeze it out of the tube and you get some water and then you're done. Yeah. And then you rinse your brushes with water and and the smell of it also, because I paint in like a basement studio, and it was like the middle of winter when I got the oils. I was like, Well, I don't want to have my window open, like it's cold, but they were stinky. So maybe this summer I'll try them.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you for sharing your medium journey. I appreciate that. I think it's cool, like that's another cool thing is being able to feel free to like try different mediums and different things, and and like even non-standard mediums, like things that you maybe see that are it's not even art, like not even painting, but sculpture or other things that you might look at. I think it's really cool. Um, and sometimes you see these artists that are doing stuff, you're like, how did they even think to make that? Yeah, like why did they choose to use that material to make that? I mean, it looks awesome, but like I think that's really cool. Like people that work with metal or people that work with like uh tiles and things like that. I think it's uh it's always amazing to me to see how people like see the world differently.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00I think we're gonna start wrapping it up. Before we do, is there let's say somebody's listening to this and they you know they want to they're an artist, any kind of artist, musician, painter, photographer, something like that, and they are into fly fishing. So they're fly fishing artists. If they're here, they're probably into fly fishing, right? But is there any advice that you would give that person to get them to the next step or make them feel comfortable moving forward with their art? Yeah, to help them as an artist move forward. Let's say they're feeling like maybe stuck.
SPEAKER_02Um the biggest lesson I've learned is to make sure that you're creating for yourself. Um, and if you're sharing your art with people, which most people are, to make sure that you are putting your opinion of your art first, um, and you know, not really caring what other people think and not trying to fit into a mold of what you should be making, how much art you should be making, what type of art you should be making. And I think for me, I like to remind myself of what really inspires me and make sure that I'm making the time to do what I need to do to find that inspiration. So for me, it's going fly fishing. So it's really important to me, not only because I love fly fishing, but it's also important to me to get out there and like put myself out into the spaces that inspire me, which is the river and the lakes, and just taking that time for me, because without that, I find that I can't find that inspiration and I can't connect with that creative side. So, whatever it is that inspires you, take the time to make sure that you're still getting that inspiration so that you can truly be the most creative you can be.
SPEAKER_00I think that's good advice. Was that hard for you? The kind of you mentioned uh not listening to the people that are maybe not as big a fan, or like did you experience that a lot, or was it easy for you to brush that off and be like, uh, that's fine, it's not for you? Or because that's that cripples a lot of artists, I think.
SPEAKER_02It does. I think that the biggest one for me was to remind myself that just because I've always painted fish doesn't mean I have to forever paint fish. Like, I don't, you know, I I felt like I was like, oh well, that's what I do. Yeah, you know, and that's what people know me as. Oh well, Piper paints fish, and maybe Piper doesn't paint fish, you know?
SPEAKER_00Maybe Piper wants to paint a bird. I don't know. Yeah, like who knows what Piper wants. Yeah, but did you I mean, I guess what I'm asking is more like, did you receive any negative feedback or did you like did you was that all in your head? Did you have that voice in your head? It's like, ah, that's not really that good.
SPEAKER_02And then Yeah, you know, I mean, I'll I think all artists have that. I will say I have obviously received negative feedback on my art, and that just comes with putting yourself out there. I feel sort of lucky that I haven't received an abundance of that, though. You know, the the positive feedback was so much greater than the negative feedback that you know. Of course, I got the occasional comment or message here or there that was kind of like, ooh, like that's dung. Um but the positive feedback far outweighed the negative sides of it, and I do feel lucky in that way. So yeah, that's a good gotta brush them off, you know? Yeah. If you if you don't have haters, you're not doing something right.
SPEAKER_00All right, that's a good that's a good one to end on. That's good. All right, Piper, before I ask you my last question, how can people find out more about you? See your art? You still have the art business, so if people want to buy art or if they want to, I don't know if you're doing commissions right now, but any anything that you want to share with them about your art, uh, how can they find out about you? And then maybe also what are you excited about coming up, whether it's fly fishing or art?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, so I do still have my website, um, which is you can find it, it's pipernun.art. Um, so just first last name.art. And then my Instagram as well. Um, I share all of my stuff on there, which is just at piper underscore none. Um, those are the best places to just keep up with, you know, what I'm doing, all my new art. And right now I don't have a whole lot on the horizon. Um, it feels good. I just am getting out there in the spring, um, fishing a lot and uh looking forward to some cool trips this summer, some cool alpine backpacking stuff and creating more art of some type. Okay. Whatever comes next.
SPEAKER_00That's great. I'm looking forward to it, and I hope that you do keep putting it out there because I mean, all this being said, it is inspirational just to see people creating good art and uh the people creating art that is, you know, that there is true to them. And yeah, I think that's super cool, and I'm glad you're gonna continue putting art out there and that we continue to see your art out there in the world. I'm really happy for you too. I think that's super cool. I'm sure it was challenging for you to kind of go through this experience that you just shared, but it sounds like you're in a really good place and I'm really happy for you and super proud of you, man. I mean, for being able to be the full-time artist and then to continue to be an artist and realize where you're at. I think that's awesome. And and also for sharing it, you know, because now you know, like for you to be able to say, hey, this is what it is, and this is what it's not, and this is who I am, is I I think it's courageous. So thanks for that too.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Yeah, I think it's important to talk about, and I appreciate being given the space to kind of share my story and what that looked like for me.
SPEAKER_00Of course. Thank you for being on the show.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at WadeOutThere.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.