The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
The Wadeoutthere Fly Fishing Podcast
WOT #5: The South Platte and Fishing Photography with Rob Herrmann
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In this episode we Wadeoutthere with Rob Herrmann from Arvada, Colorado, just outside of Denver. Rob is a full time photographer whose adventurous spirit help him capture the outdoors and fly fishing year round. We discuss techniques for photographing our own fly fishing memories (00:19:10), some of the differences between the various sections of the South Platte River (00:34:55), and chasing trout in cold weather…really cold weather (00:46:49).
For more about Rob Herrmann and his artistic photography visit his website at:
https://robherrmann.myportfolio.com/
Check out more fly fishing stories, lessons learned and artwork at my blog and online gallery:
https://wadeoutthere.com/
Sign up for Jason's free email newsletter (WadeOutThere Wednesday) at WadeOutThere.com/Wednesday
In this episode, we wade out there with Rob Herman from Arvada, Colorado, just outside of Denver. Rob is a full-time photographer whose adventurous spirit helped him capture the outdoors and fly fishing year-round. We discuss techniques for photographing our own fly fishing memories, some of the differences between the various sections of the South Platte River, and chasing trout in cold weather. Really cold weather. Welcome to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Shefchuk. At Wade Out There, we believe fly fishing is special, but not elite, and that anyone can become a great fly fisher if they are willing to go, learn, and teach. Join me as I talk with other fly fishermen and women about their unique journeys into fly fishing, the rivers they fish, and the tactics and philosophies they practice. For those who can never leave the river in their hearts, this podcast is dedicated to helping you make the memories that keep us all coming back to Wade Out There. Alright, welcome Rob. Thanks for coming on the Wade Out There podcast.
SPEAKER_03Hey Jason, thanks for having me.
JasonSo I had the best introduction planned. I had this vision in my brain. I was going to talk to you. I'm going to go through all his portfolios. I'm going to find, I'm going to look through all these awesome fish pictures and mountains. I'm going to tell I'm going to find my favorite picture and I'm going to tell him why it's special to me. And it's going to be great. But unable, dude. Like there's no way. I mean, first of all, there's so many. And then there's so many, my friend. They're so good. Like everyone, I'm like, no, that's my favorite. No, that's my favorite. Thanks, man. Yeah, it's it's it's really incredible. I want to talk more about all that. But um it's really art too, you know? It's not just photography. Um but uh when I look at it, I and I know you're into fly fishing and hunting and things like that and photography. Wondering what what came first for you? Photography or fly fishing or outdoors, or what was that journey like? Can you can you talk a little bit about getting into this? I mean, what what happened first and how did you kind of get to this place?
SPEAKER_03Sure. Um it it definitely came in the place of you know, kind of the great outdoors. It's like I grew up in a very natural place. I grew up in upstate New York, uh, just outside of Ithaca, New York. So it's a tiny little town. There's no stoplights. We got a ton of lakes, it's right on the Finger Lakes uh region of New York. So it's a you know very natural place, it's very beautiful. I grew up with a with a lake house. We spent summers on the lake, and uh I had a grandfather who was very active and um mainly fishing, but he was a big, big outdoorsman, and he and my dad, you know, just kind of got me interested in it and got me going early. And um, you know, honestly, I think you started with a spinning rod in your hand. That was sure how I started too, you know, most of us do. Um wasn't too long, yeah, no shame at all. It wasn't too long before my grandfather kind of started to teach me fly fishing, but still, you know, primarily in my area, it was a lot of spin fishing. We lived right on the lake. Um, so it was uh you know just a cool opportunity to to be immersed in nature and really start to build up that love for it. Yeah, and so then the photography thing really kind of came after. Uh I was a baseball player for my whole life, uh, into college, played into college, and then decided after college that I wanted to play for a while. So uh honestly, that was kind of what got me into photography was I knew that I was gonna be traveling a lot for baseball.
SPEAKER_02Cool.
SPEAKER_03So that's kind of a funny thing because a lot of people think, oh, you know, this guy must have gotten a start in in fishing photography. But you know, quite honestly, I was shooting my travel. Um, I picked up my first camera, my senior year of college. I kind of started learning with it while I was still in college, and then um, you know, throughout my adventures was playing baseball for a living. You have a lot of spare time on your hands, uh, unfortunately.
JasonSo that's awesome, man. I didn't know that. I don't know why I didn't know that. I feel like I should have known that. I should have looked aware of that.
SPEAKER_03That's cool. I mean, it's funny now because I I kind of have a disconnect. Like I don't I don't talk much about baseball. Even when I moved to Colorado, I actually moved out here for a baseball job. Um, so I moved out here for a coaching job that was literally just a two-month job. It was like no money at all, but um, I had just gotten done playing and I knew that I loved it out in Denver, and I knew that you know I'd seen the South Platte and I knew where I was going.
JasonSo we're gonna talk about the South Plat if you want to. I got um can I ask who you played for? I mean, that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I actually played independent professional baseball. So um I played in a few different leagues around the states. So independent leagues are a little different because they're not technically affiliated to, you know, so the Yankees or the Red Sox. Um, affiliate baseball is uh a or sorry, uh uh independent baseball is a lot of guys that went undrafted. You know, there's a ton of talent there, it's just a small budget and a different scene. So um I played for the Las Cruces Vaquieros. I played for the Vaqueros?
JasonYeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's usually fun names, little tower.
JasonCool mascots.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you know, those games, it's it's they're basically doing whatever they have to do to try to put fans in the stand. So they're yeah, they're entertaining and it's it's good baseball, but it was a lot of fun, and so I um started playing in the States. I played about three years in the States, and I had a bunch of buddies that had gone to Australia to play. Um, Australia works really nicely just because it's reverse seasons, so you can play professional seasons in the states during the summer, you can go over to Australia for their summertime.
JasonCool, and the whole time you're stored, you're taking pictures.
SPEAKER_03Taking pictures, yeah. So I did that once. I loved it. I went back the next year, so I came back to the states and played, went back to Australia again. Um, my second year in Australia, I was uh about to sign with a team in the States uh that was kind of in the the northeast, and I had started to consider like most of the guys that got me into Australia said, Man, if you like Australia, you have to go to Europe. And so I started looking, I kind of told myself, all right, you know, if I hear from a top 10 caliber team in Europe, I'll I'll go to Europe. And I literally was about a day away from signing with a team in Pennsylvania, and I heard from a team in Germany that was one of the toppers in Europe, and it's kind of like, all right, well, I told myself I would do this, so I'm doing it. So I went, I played in Germany, um and then I played two years in France also.
JasonAwesome, man. I was stationed over in Germany for oh three years when I was in the service. It's kind of like you. I was at uh Spangolam Air Base, uh by Vitlage and Bitberg. If you had a Bitburger beer before, Bitburg, yeah. Right, by it's really Bitburg is pretty much the closest big town. And then we go down to Trier and drink and party and stuff, and then uh Mosul River, that kind of area, and then we were over in France a bunch. So yeah, I appreciate Europe. It's a fun place to be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, it's a great place. I'd I really I you know by the end of my playing career, it was really more for me about the the life experience than anything. So, you know, it was kind of I was paying the bills by playing baseball and yeah, getting getting enjoy life. So it was pretty cool.
JasonDid you think it taught you? I mean, because when I look at your your art now and your photography, there's uh there's a lot of storytelling in there. So do you think that that I mean, I feel like that lifestyle maybe did that contribute to it? Or I mean, because you kind of was it um almost like journalistic, like I'm telling my story through these pictures, and did you start that way? Like, did you say, well, I just I mean, did you say I'm gonna buy a camera and get into photography, or you just started taking pictures on your iPhone? You're like, I need a bigger camera, and then I really like this.
SPEAKER_03And um, yeah, I mean, it honestly started on like a little little crappy digital camera that my dad had that he actually used to record me hitting with. Nice. Um, so you know, it was a it was a little camera. I did a cross-country trip with Buddy, snapped every photo I could with it, every crappy photo I could with it. Um, you know, and I kind of realized that I really enjoyed it. And I've always I've always been into storytelling, I've always enjoyed writing. I don't necessarily enjoy all the time and the the everything that goes into writing. So I you know, I give you a lot of credit. I know that it's I know.
JasonThere's a lot of drafts. There's a lot of drafts. I mean, yeah, it's getting over that hurdle. The first hurdle is just putting stuff down and then yeah, and then it's like a lot of rewriting and rewriting and just you know getting the ideas out and then making them an actual thing.
SPEAKER_03But sure, yeah. So that that was kind of my idea, you know, was I I knew that I wanted to document everything that I was doing. I didn't necessarily want to be writing a journal entry for every day, yeah. You know what I mean? Which I, you know, looking back at it, I almost wish that I did because there's so many crazy experiences that I probably don't even remember now that you know were a big thing at the at the time and and not so much now. So yeah. Um a lot of it was just kind of you know, I I I got interested in the ability to capture my adventures and yeah, kind of got addicted to learning more about that and just just ran with it from there.
JasonSo then you're in Colorado. You live in Denver, right?
SPEAKER_03So yeah, so I'm just outside of Denver, I'm in Arvada, technically. So a little bit a little bit closer to the mountains. We're in West Arvada, so it's literally I can I can be in my favorite spot in Cheeseman Canyon in about an hour and 20 minutes.
JasonYeah, it's pretty nice. I used to live out there too, and the South Platte is really easy to get to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm sure from the springs you were pretty quick.
JasonYeah. Um so are you a full-time photographer now? Just um, and did you transition when you came out to Colorado? Was it well? I really I'm at the point now where I love photography and capturing these this journey, but now my journey is taking me back to the the nature that I grew up with, and then so now I'm going to was it obvious or did that happen kind of gradually as well?
SPEAKER_03Um that that actually was a little gradual, also. You know, like I said, I I had just gotten done playing. I had just finished my last season up in France. I came back to the States, you know. Really, I could have played baseball until I was 35 if I wanted to, but I I kind of got to the point where I felt felt like it was time for the next stage.
JasonDude, I totally understand, man. Nothing lasts forever, and you know when you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you know, everybody, even my dad said, you know, why the hell do you want to retire from baseball now? Like keep keep playing, man. You got you got games left in you, and and I definitely did, but you know, I feel like I I had some fantastic experiences. So um I had been back in the States just for a couple of months. A guy that I played Pro Ball with out in California uh gave me a call and he ran a facility out in Golden Colorado. Um so they ran travel teams and had an indoor facility with batting cages and a gym and um a little pile of everything. So he basically said, Listen, dude, I know you just got done playing. He actually played in France also and Australia. So he had a you know pretty good idea of where I was at and where I had been. And yeah, um, you know, he said, I've I've got a job for too little money for two and a half months of the summer. If you want to come out, I got a place for you. And I love it. You know, I kind of kind of just jumped at it. I actually had a another offer in Los Angeles, and the LA offer was a a money offer. It was a place I didn't didn't want to be, place I didn't want to live. And um, you know, I'm looking back at it, if I could tell a bunch of little kids like follow the the location or what you want to do and not not the money, and I would say it a hundred times again because I'm I'm really, really fortunate and happy that I didn't move to LA.
JasonSo that last statement, that was the answer to my final question for the podcast. So I now have to I have to think of a new final question for you. Like, what advice would you give to uh to look somebody that's in that spot?
SPEAKER_03Maybe we'll expand on it later, but yeah, we can dive into that one.
JasonSo are you full-time now photographer? And it's not necessarily like just fly fishing, you're doing all kinds of stuff, but fly fishing is a big part of it, and no schooling. Like, so that's the journey to get you out in Colorado, and then you're you're into the outdoors, not just fly fishing, and you've got this photography background you developed and worked on. And now I think when we were talking earlier, you said you're a year into your business. So is that are you a full-time photographer now and just go with the seasons for what's more outdoors kind of stuff?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I'm I'm completely full-time now. Um, the so the the baseball job that I took was a coaching job, but I also did all of their media. Um, I kind of completed that two and a half month role. They hired me full-time because they realized that I could one, I could coach, but I could also, you know, take all their photos, record all their videos, do whatever they needed. So, you know, that was one nice place where kind of the the hobby and the the talent that I had built just through something I was interested in, I was able to do that for work. So um did that for a little while and then got to the point where you know it was kind of a transition point. Uh our our gym and stuff was kind of picking up and moving, and they wanted a long-term commitment. And I said, you know, I I appreciate my time here. You guys got me in Colorado. You know, I'm yeah, I I wouldn't be here without you, but I think it's time for me to step away. So yeah, um, that was literally that was August of last year. So it's been a year.
JasonYou know, what's fascinating about all that we've been talking about and just thinking about my own life, but uh I'm uh I love how like every there's little parts along the way where you you're just not afraid to take the next not even the next step, but just like shift directions, you know. Well, this seems this is more what I'm into now, and I'm gonna make it work. You know, I'm gonna make a living doing this, and when it's time to move on, it's time to move on, and and not being afraid of change or I mean not not not not necessarily be not being afraid, but just there's inertia that you have to overcome anytime you when you change. I'm gonna live in a new spot or a new new job or things like that. So it's cool to hear you say, like, and then I said, No, I'm gonna do this, no, I'm gonna do that, no, I'm gonna start my own business. I mean, that's a big deal. Congratulations, that's great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's I mean, that's one thing I think that baseball really helped me with because I yeah, you know, you win some, you lose some. Yeah, I was that that also, but I was also uh, you know, by the end of my my days, I realized I was pretty spoiled by my experiences, but I wouldn't have had any of them if I didn't jump and and do them, you know, and and that's I know a ton of people you get those opportunities and you let them slip and you never know what happens, you know. But I'm I had a a very fortunate uh lifestyle after college just because I was willing to to jump into it.
JasonSo okay, cool. So for your business, and we can talk, I mean, I know you're into hunting and other outdoor stuff and just being in nature and hiking, and uh love to hear you talk some about that, but but also I'm kind of wondering um is photography like I guess what's uh what's a day in the life like doing your business photography for fly fishing? Like do you do you work for companies or something like that, or how does that yeah?
SPEAKER_03So it's it's a little bit of a mix right now. Um I do basically whatever it takes, but you know, I'm kind of kind of trying to to really hone my niche in so that I don't necessarily have to take everything and I've I've gotten to that point now, but yeah um a lot of it is a lot of it these days is actually product work. So yeah, um I work for a lot of companies. Uh I'm fortunate that most of them are kind of products that are complementary to the outdoors. You know, they're not necessarily all fly rods or reels or what uh whatnot, but yeah, um you know we work for a company company Rover Coolers. Um they're based out of Boulder, you know, it's really fun to work with some local companies, and they're a good example of just a company that you know has designed a product for an outdoor lifestyle. It's not necessarily my exact lifestyle, but I feel like my work can really complement theirs just because it's you know it's a it's uh a natural base life, you know, it's getting out and enjoying enjoying nature and yeah, you know, a product that complements that for me feels organic to shoot. It feels feels very easy to shoot.
JasonYeah, and like and that's something that I notice too when I look at your photography. I keep wanting to call it art because to me, like that's what I see. But when I look at your photography or or art, whatever's more appropriate, I don't know, but uh I can tell that this this guy is capturing something that he enjoys, you know, like that it's part of his his journey, his life. So I think it's pretty cool, man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I mean that makes it a thousand times easier. You know, I'm sure for you writing about something that felt like worth wouldn't wouldn't feel as desirable as yeah, as a fishing fishing blog.
JasonWell, yeah, I mean that's kind of I've I decided I wanted to to try and pursue something that I was passionate about and and uh and start a business and see that type of thing. And it just I just I kept playing it out in my brain, like we used to call it chair flying, but like going down the path of what's gonna happen. And I kept getting to a point in all my other like ideas where I'm not gonna like this, I'm gonna stop doing it. You know, and I think uh for me it's been useful. It's been I don't think I could do it without having some sort of passion to do it. Like I love talking to people like you about Colorado fly fishing and sure, photography, art, things like that, you know. So I feel like I it's it's fine, it's making your job versus finding it, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. And that's kind of you know, having played baseball long enough, I I probably would have had a tough time going to a regular nine to five. So to be able to kind of mold something off of a skill that I built and not necessarily really was educated on was yeah um, you know, just kind of a dream come true.
JasonYeah, and everything builds, you know. I mean, all so much that you learn through I don't know, you you gotta work hard to be successful, uh be a professional baseball player, you know. It it takes work, persistence, overcoming adversity. Like those are all a lot of failure. Yeah, a lot of failure mental mental models that are useful in what what you're trying to do moving forward, I think. Maybe I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, definitely.
JasonAll right. Um
Fly fishing photography
JasonI have a a question I want to ask you about uh photography. So for the rest of us out there with the iPhone on the on the river, uh I've got some specific questions, but I was gonna ask you about photography for people that like to fly fish and and get out in the outdoors that maybe you could help out with. I've got specific questions I was gonna ask, but uh before I get started, do you have any just basic overall um considerations that you have for people when they're going out there to uh in the outdoors and they want to take a picture, they're not a f professional thing like that, especially fly fishing.
SPEAKER_03Man, there's there's a lot, but you know, I'm always amazed. iPhones capabilities are are pretty incredible. So um, if I was to say anything, if if you're just shooting with an iPhone, a lot of it's gonna be composition. So mix up your shots, you know, move around. Um, with an iPhone, obviously you can zoom in and out, but it's almost like a prime lens. One of my favorite things about a prime lens on a camera is it forces you to move your feet. If you move your feet, you can create some great stuff. If you stay in one place, you're gonna get the same stuff.
JasonOkay.
SPEAKER_03Um, so that's that's one thing that I would really recommend for people is switch up your angles. It's like get get low, get low to the water, you know, get high, get above people, you know. Try to try to find angles that aren't necessarily the everyday face-to-face angle that we see all the time.
JasonRight.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
JasonPeople can't see, but I can see you, and I've showing you my this is my standard fish post. No, and they're like, no, man, you gotta move around. Uh that's good. I mean, what about taking more photos? I find that that's something that's helpful too. Like a lot, even for if I have got a blog post that I'm gonna do and I want a picture for it, and I want to take a picture of a fly. I'm I wrote a post about a fly that I like or something. I take 20 pictures and I'm like, all right, this one's way better. I take two and I'm stuck with like one or the other. And at that point, the the the game is up. I gotta get going and pick one or the other, but I feel like I don't know. It's kind of a I don't know. Does that is that something that you look for? Or do you just kind of find the exact place and snap a shot?
SPEAKER_03No, not necessarily. Um, you know, it's still like I said, a lot of movement. You know, I I take a lot of photos, I overshoot most of the jobs I'm on. Um I've always been an overshooter, but you know, I think when you get home at the end of the day, you'll be happy that you were. Especially these days in the digital age, you know, you could take two thousand photos and delete one thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine of them. You know, so so that's that's one thing, but Um definitely, you know, a lot of what I try to do also, which will differentiate you a little bit is you know, look around. Um I I find a lot of my best photos are not necessarily I love photographing fish, I really do, but a lot of my my favorite photos that I take are kind of photos that I wouldn't have noticed if I wasn't looking for them.
JasonRight.
SPEAKER_03Um, and that's that's one thing, you know, it's really easy to get consumed by the fish and just what's what's right there, you know. You have to have a fish to take a good fly fishing photo. It's like, well, that's that's not even a a tenth of the trip, you know. The the trip is about the experience, it's about the hike in, the grind, the wildflowers all over that you're stepping through, you know, like just just the little details that a lot of people kind of take for granted. And it's really easy to take for granted.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_03Um, but that stuff, you know, I think that that'll differentiate you a lot also, and you know, also give you a better feel throughout the day. Because like I said, you know, you might catch a few beautiful fish, but most of the views and the sights and sounds that you're running into are not not the fish.
JasonRight. Unless, yeah. Um, especially me, I probably it's it's very much not about the fish. I've been uh taking pictures of everything, and I mean I think it depends on what you're into. I mean, some people listen to probably you know, I you know, I go fly fishing, I don't want to take pictures or whatever, but most people like at least to take a picture of the fish once in a while, but maybe not. But uh I I think if if you are trying to capture the experience, I think it's useful to you know do what you're talking about. Plus, it's like you said, storytelling. You know, I'm remembering the experience, and it's not just about the giant fish I caught. So even if it's just having a couple fix pictures on the way in or whatever, like you said, I think that's absolutely I mean, a lot of the reason why I love fishing is because it gets us in the outdoors, and you know, that's sure it's it's fishing that got us there, but it's the outdoors that I'm there to enjoy.
SPEAKER_03So it doesn't necessarily just have to be a fish, you know. I'm I'm notorious for getting distracted and I'll be over shooting butterflies and flowers and like hey, come over here, we got the cooler by the river and the fish.
JasonWhat are you doing?
SPEAKER_03I shoot some trips with uh the blue quill anglers up in Evergreen. Um, and I always joke with people because you know, those with guides and you know, a lot of a lot of anglers, and I always tell people if I'm photographing butterflies and flowers, it's about time for you to catch fish.
JasonSo yeah, that's that's when you're like, look, man, you know, I can't make you catch fish. I'm up here to take the pictures. Do you want to hold the camera? Um that's cool, man. Do you the other thing I notice a lot, you I I love the pictures you take of the close-up fish, you know, or the parts of the fish, you know, like if you you know, taking a picture of just the gill plate or his uh dorsal fin or the eye or just even a like that that's really cool too.
SPEAKER_03I think that's something that that people can do that I try and absolutely and you know they're they're such beautiful creatures, man.
JasonThey're I know it's so it's not hard. It's like I mean, I wouldn't say it's not hard, but like I take a picture of the fish and I'm like, God, I this is just a beautiful creature.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, they they really are, and they're they're all so unique, and you know, just to to get to meet them, I think is a very special experience. So that's one thing I've really tried to get a lot better at is kind of looking at the little things, even even on the fish. You know, I said look around, it's like check out the fish, man. You know, some of them they'll have the most unique tail you've ever seen, or their adipose fin is just a bright, brilliant orange, you know, something something little like that, where if you take a gripping grin of the whole person, you know, you might not necessarily catch that, but man, you get tight on those fish, and it's it's a lot more special of a of a capture in my mind.
JasonYeah, even if it's not, yeah, even if you even if you just say, okay, this is gonna be one me with the fish, and then this is one just the fish, you even see more there, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, there's still a place for the gripping grin. I'm not saying don't take it, you know. I think everybody still should. It's it's good to have that, but but those little details, there's there's something about them that really get me. And um, uh, you know, I go I go through phases too. It's funny, I was flipping through my feed the other day and I realized I went through about a month where all I posted was macro photos of tight fish. And that was just kind of a you know, I got on a a little jant with it and uh I ran with it.
JasonWhat about light, sunlight, and cloudy days and things like that? Is that is that something that people can pay attention to or is it helpful with the the colors and stuff?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, um cloudy days are gonna be your best days to shoot.
JasonReally? Okay, they're my worst, but all right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's it's funny, you know, not not dark, cloudy, but uh to have a little bit of overcast to have, you know, basically that the overcast, those clouds work as diffusers. So it's basically like you have a big source of light in your sun, all of a sudden you have a nice white bed sheet between you and the sun that kind of filters that light out. So generally speaking, you'll have more even light. Uh it's it's less harsh. You know, you get on a bluebird day. Bluebird days on the river are tough.
JasonReally?
SPEAKER_03Um, generally speaking, if I could give you like kind of my crash course tips from what I've learned really hard is yes, I'm gonna put that in the show notes, crash course tips from yeah, so open shade. Open shade is the greatest thing you can find. So if you're on a river, and it's hard a lot of places, also. But so what I mean by open shade is basically a shadow being cast by something, say it's a tree, it's a it's a bank, you know, whatever it is, but you have sky open above you. So the sky open above you is gonna bring a lot of light in. You're also gonna get a lot of ambient light off the water, off your surroundings. But you're in the shade, but the shade, yes, is gonna make it nice even light. So, you know, you you look at somebody that's directly in the sunshine, it's like they have hot spots, you know, like our oils show up. You get right, it's it's just real harsh. You got harsh shadows. You get in the shade, you shouldn't have shadows because you're in the shadow, technically, you know, but you should have a good amount of light kind of around you and bouncing all over the place.
JasonDo you have a favorite fish to to take pictures of? Like what one when one that you think is more artistic than the others?
SPEAKER_03Probably cutthroat of my so glad you said that. I'm a sucker for these high alpine fish, man. Um that's that's something that I'm super spoiled to be out here now. And like I said, I grew up with a lot of fish, but we don't have high alpine lakes, and these high alpine fish are just out of this world. They're something else.
JasonYeah. I think I've I've read and heard that the a wild fish, you know, a fish will take on the colors of its surroundings a little bit because of just like natural um survival type of thing. So sometimes stocked fish don't have that if they've grown up in a place where they're not as exposed to some of those things. I mean, is that something you notice between like, hey, this is a wild fish and it's way more bright colors than maybe a a stocked trout or something?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, is that like a eh?
JasonNot really. They're still really pretty.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's that's one thing that's tough, also, because technically all the fish in these high mountain lakes were stocked at one point, right? You know, but they've been unintruded upon for a long time, you know.
JasonThey're they're they're not native, but they're they're not they're wild.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. You know, technically there's no real native trout to Colorado, but these trout have been here longer than most of us. So you know, it's it's a cool thing, but it definitely depends on the lakes. Um, I I see a lot, you know, depending on the food sources there, lakes that have scuds and leeches will be crazy colored up fish. And so this the scuds tend to have um almost like a shrimp effect, you know, how a flamingo eats shrimp and they take on the pigmentation. It's very similar thing.
JasonSo I heard that once, but you just reminded me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So a lot of these places, um, we did a trip with Yakota not not too long ago up to a spot, and man, those the biggest scuds I've ever seen, and the fish were like fire engine red.
JasonReally?
SPEAKER_03And that looking at it, I feel like that that has to be the culprit because they're just you know, everything else in the lake is totally normal, but it's these monster scuds that are a little bit colored up, and yeah, and yeah, these fish, you know, they they have a primary diet that's made up of a bunch of colored up little things. I guess it it translates to their color.
JasonIt's super impressive when when I see a picture that you put up of one of those. They're red. I mean, it's it's just a you can't, it's not like a filter type, it's like this is a just a bright red fish, it's almost tropical looking kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03I mean, those you almost like I almost have to take saturation out of the photos because they look so insane, you know.
JasonYeah, it's definitely cool. And then uh yeah, and then you always get great shots with the water dripping off and stuff, and like so that's kind of one of the last things I was gonna ask you about. This is uh what what tips do you have for you know the grip and grin guy, but a catch and release dude. So, you know, you want a good picture, but you need a you want to balance so you don't want to hurt the fish or something like that. Is that I know it's something you consider, but do you have any uh things that you use to kind of keep keep that going when you're taking pictures?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's that's really my priority 100% of the time when I'm taking photos of fish is the fish. Um, you know, um there's a lot of people out there that probably don't handle them property properly, you know, there's a lot of people that are attacking people for whatnot, you know. And yeah, the way that I look at it is that you know, you're taking that photo to be able to enjoy that fish and to be able to share that and enjoy that with somebody else eventually. And that's the idea behind catching a lease, also. So, you know, anytime I have people photographing fish, it's like even if it's a beginner, you know, before they even touch that fish, keep them in the net, keep them in the water. Um, you know, the the more they're in the water, the better off they are. You know, the way I I forget where I first heard it, but I think kind of the the premise of imagine you're being dunked underwater when they're out of water. I've heard that too. Like you can't hold your breath. Like if you can hold your breath, you know, and that's you think about it, you know, this is a very, very stressful thing for a human to be forced underwater. So I would imagine it's a very stressful thing for a fish to come out. So, you know, generally speaking, I try to keep them in the water as much as possible. I like to shoot a lot on the level of the water also, so that that works well because then it's it's less handling, you know. If if you were to pick them way up and then you get the big fish flop and it's five feet to the water and whack, you know, they hit their side. Obviously, that's that's not necessarily doing them any favors. Um but you know, I think a lot of it is just just being respectful of the fish. One of the things that I always tell people when I'm photographing fish, like I said, I do some trips with the blue quill anglers. Um, and so a lot of their clients, you know, they might be they might be totally new to fly fishing. So, you know, kind of walk them through it. It's like basically tell them it's like you're gonna build a little shelf with your fingers, you're gonna try to point that spine straight to the sky. And you know, generally what I tell them is the the fish will match your demeanor. So if you are uptight and want to really clamp down on them, the fish is going to want to move. You know, you think about like if somebody walked up behind you and tried to restrain you and squeeze you real tight, you would squirm too.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And you know, generally speaking, if if you lift them up and you're nice and gentle with them, they're gonna have no real reason, no real issue to to be kicking around about. And you know, generally they'll they'll kind of cooperate long enough for you to get that shot.
JasonYeah, okay. I think that's good advice. Yeah. Um, I'd like to switch gears unless uh anything else you wanted to chime in on that.
SPEAKER_03No, sir.
JasonI was gonna what is the South Platte the majority of the I mean it's the closest to you. You said um out in Denver.
The South Platte River
JasonWhat is it about the South Platte that you think is most special for you and and photography?
SPEAKER_03Oh boy. Well so there's no question, it's a great question. If it makes me think, it's a good question.
SPEAKER_02All right.
SPEAKER_03Um there's you know, there's definitely closer water to me. I would say the South Platte is one of my favorites. I I still think all the time, the first time that I stepped into Cheeseman Canyon, so Cheesman Canyon is a stretch on the South Platte. That's a it's very unique water. Um, you know, it takes takes a hike to get in. Cheeseman Canyon is also entirely wild because there's no real way to stock it. So um I think a lot of it, honestly, the the first time that I went in there, I looked around and just realized you know the immense beauty I was just engulfed in, and it was like, man, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to leave Colorado.
JasonIt's big, yeah, big rocks.
SPEAKER_03It's not the same as like you know, it's just boulders, it's gin clear waters, most colored up fish you'll find anywhere. And yeah, um, and they're picky bastards too, you know, they're they're the hardest fish to catch in Colorado, but that's that's part of it, I think. You know, it was uh I like trying to hit baseballs for a long time. It's pretty similar to hitting a 90 mile per hour fastball. You you can see it pretty well, but you might not hit it.
JasonRight. 30% of the time is really good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so so I don't know if that answered your question, but no, I mean let me ask more specifically.
JasonIs there a section of the of the South Platte? So there's there's different sections of the South Platte. Um Cheeseman Canyon, Deckers, kind of below Deckers, Dreamstream, Dream Stream, 11 mile. 11 mile. Is there missing one?
SPEAKER_03There's the North Fork of the South Platte also, but yeah, um the South Fork is really what we're talking about.
JasonSo is it um how about this? Do you is there one that you rather fish or that you have that you like fishing more or and one that you like photographing more, or is it the same thing? Like Cheeseman Canyon for you is special. Is it fishing and photography, or uh you know, I go where the work is.
SPEAKER_03So I'm in a little bit there, but if if I if I have a day to fish, I'm going into Cheeseman because it's yeah, like I said, it's you know, it's a little bit more off-the-beaten path. Like so, Decker's, for example, is the stretch below Cheesman. Decker's is accessible by truck, you know, you can drive up to the river and fish, and that's fantastic, you know, that that has its place, but it also brings the crowds. Um, you know, those fish are a lot more pressured, they're a lot more beat up because of the pressure. And um I I always find appeal in working hard for what I'm after.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, I don't know if that's a good trade or uh a tough trade to have, but uh something about that hard work, you know. Even if if I go into cheeseman and get my ass kicked, I I still feel good about it because I feel like you know it it you took the hard road.
JasonYou said, you know what, I might not catch as many fish, but I'm going in. Yeah, I get that.
SPEAKER_03If I go down to Decker's and I jump out of the truck and I get skunked, I feel bad about that one.
JasonWell, I've definitely been skunked on Decker's too, so I guess I feel bad. But yeah, I went, I was out visiting one time Colorado, and that I go to I had to I needed a new line or something. I I think I needed a new line for my reeler and I went in to flesh shop to ask to to get line, fly line, and I asked the guy, you know, what's what's fishing, what's fishing good, or what do you, you know, which which part you think I should go to? And this is after I I'd I'd fished it for years when I was in school out there, but so I kind of know the different sections. But I was just wondering what he thought. And he said, Well, if you want to catch more fish, go out to Deckers. If you want to catch big fish and have just a really beautiful time in nature, then go out to Cheeseman Canyon. And then the dream stream's just the dream stream, it's its own thing, you know.
SPEAKER_03Like it's yeah, it's a little it's a little different beast.
JasonYeah, I was surprised when I went out there the the first time, and just it's it's so opposite of cheeseman, you know, it's just open and flat.
SPEAKER_03And it's really cool. I I I like the dream, but it's definitely one, the crowds there are pretty bad. Really? Um they they tend to get bad. It's a lot of a lot of Colorado Springs folks, you know. You guys aren't aren't too far from there, so yeah. Um, it does get crowded, but you know, the Dream Stream is a unique fishery because it's a place where you can catch a 30-inch fish, and there's not that many places in you know, even in the US that you can say that.
JasonSo maybe not me, but maybe you.
SPEAKER_03Well, I I haven't yet, I'll say that. I'm just saying they're in there, they are in there. It's a unique water in that sense, is you know, cheeseman, the the average fish is good size. I would say in cheeseman canyon, the average fish is like a 16 to 18 inch fish. Yeah, not necessarily huge, but they're very consistent. Like I said, they're they're wild, you know. The dream stream, because there's lake run fish, those fish can get huge. Um, so that's I I think that's kind of the big appeal there is you know, the the dream stream you go with uh a small opportunity to catch the fish of a lifetime.
JasonYeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I was just talking to somebody else about um actually Steve Poppen. He's does uh trout it out and uh he's a guide out in the finger lakes, and he was talking about similar type of thing where these fish out of the lakes and the the great lakes and stuff that come down into the rivers, they they just have this amazing food source, and that that's why they get so big. Similar kind of dream stream thing, I guess, is kind of what you're saying.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and deep water, you know, good good food sources, deep water, they're they're well protected.
JasonSo cheeseman's kind of the least crowded because it's just the hardest to get to. You eliminate people right off the bat that are just not gonna walk in. Like I'm not for sure.
SPEAKER_03And a lot of people also, you know, cheesemen is it's the other waters on the South Platte are super technical, but I would say cheesemen is probably the hardest place to catch a fish. So I think that factors in a lot also. You know, I know guys that went into cheesemen 23 years ago, got skunked, and never went back. Yeah, I guess I think that's a small factor, also, is you know, people somebody worked hard to get there at one point and got bossed around by that river and decided, eh, maybe I'm not gonna make that hike again.
JasonIt's humbling, but at the same time, like you said, the it's beautiful too. So if you're going to be in nature, then there's that too. So you might not catch as many fish, or you might have a uh a quote bad day on the river. But I mean, are you really having a bad day? You know, there is no bad day.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that that's one funny thing. Also, cheeseman's gotten pretty popular with hikers, which yeah, I don't blame them because honestly, my my girlfriend and I, you know, that was I I got my girlfriend into fly fishing, and that was the place where one I wanted to go to, anyways. But we went to a lot because same thing, it's like one of the most beautiful hikes and beautiful places you can see. If you don't catch fish, you still had the most beautiful hike you could find, you know, right? It is just it's a unique place.
JasonYeah, two things on that. One, the last time I went out there fishing, uh the the lot was pretty full. Um I was going with a a guy and he said, Well, you know, that there's a lot of these that could be hikers, and it was actually, you know, it was actually hardly that many people on the river. I was yeah, I mean it was really surprising, but the the lot was full. Maybe we shouldn't be talking about this. You know, actually it was full, don't go there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, honestly, I I think that almost helps these days because I think a lot of guys will get to where achievement is, they'll see a parking lot full and they'll keep going on the deckers.
JasonYeah, drive down to a public access with no cars in the lot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
JasonUm, which I would I would definitely do that from time to time. Oh, I've done that. But uh, and then the other thing that you brought up that I wanted to mention is you you got your girlfriend out there uh fishing. I've got an evil plan to get my wife into fly fishing, and uh it's gonna happen. So that's cool. Um they're all pretty technical, I think. Yeah, definitely. I think cheesemen is probably the hardest, is what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean it's it's clear water, you know, it's very clear water. Um Decker's tends to be a little bit murkier because there's a couple tributaries. Um so I think a lot of times that'll help you. But the you know, the fish and cheesemen are native also. It's like they they know what they're eating because they eat they eat it year round and they see pressure to the point where you know they They see three flies go by five times all in a row, and they're like, Yeah, I don't think so, dude.
JasonNo, is it are they all the same type type of fish? Uh rainbows and browns in all all sections.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, a little different. So the in cheesemen it's rainbows, browns. Rarely are there anything else. There's a couple deviations, but um, you know, usually like what it would be is there's some private water below. Yeah, so something might have snuck out. Um but mainly that. Um there's there are some cutbows. So the cutbows, I'm not sure, I'm not sure if they've bred on their own. I'm not sure if they were kind of part of the breed that they put in. That's that's one different thing, also, is you know, across Colorado, they've they've put in a bunch of different species of rainbows, even though they are all rainbows. Um, you know, that makes it kind of interesting because they spawn at different times, they have a little different appearances and stuff. Um, but then I would say the biggest deviation would be the dream stream because the dream stream being lake run fish, it does have kokenee salmon.
JasonOh wow, I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, I love so so cokes are they're they're a blast, man. They're a lot of fun. When they come up in the fall, they're yeah, potted up, they're super strong, they like to jump. Yeah, you know, if you've ever caught pretty much any salmon, they're all kind of similar in that. Yeah, they're they're forceful fish, they're strong, and um let's see what else. Oh, and then they they do have big cuts in there. So the the cutthroat down there, the lake run cutthroat are some of the fish that can get really big in the dream stream.
JasonDo you have a favorite uh you have a favorite hatch or time of year that you like to fish?
SPEAKER_03Um uh you know, I guess I would probably favor summertime. I I really enjoy wet wading, you know, being able to not yeah, you know, just to not be all bundled up. And that that I guess that's funny. I'm kind of I'll probably contradict myself in a second, but it's a it's a funny mix because I I love wet wading. I love you know the the dry dropper, it's like throwing big grasshoppers on top and having a fish come up and hammer it. There's really nothing better than that. But at the same time, one thing I love in Colorado is the winter fly fishing, and you know, to to be out when most people aren't willing to do it. And um the winter also offers some unique experiences in the sense that you're you're not gonna catch the number of fish generally, but the fish that I catch in the winter traditionally are bigger.
JasonWell, that's the next thing I was gonna ask you about is is winter fly fishing uh on the South Platte.
SPEAKER_03And so I keep jumping ahead of you.
JasonNo, that's all right, you're doing good, man. Thanks. So the I
Winter fly fishing
JasonYeah, I I see so many pictures of you just crushing, like just jobbing it out there in the snow, in the delete, in the ice, and um it's impressive, you know. So I like I can tell that you're working hard doing the photography and doing those things out in the in the weather. Um frozen, I I think you wrote in one of your posts, frozen fingers and lenses build character. Mixing business with pleasure. And there's a picture of I don't know if it's you or somebody else, and it's a beautiful photo, but the guy's fly and it's just a blizzard. You can barely see the guy, but you know he's there. And I mean, that's cool stuff. Like that's something that I would I haven't done much of. I mean, I I fished a little bit in the winter when I was out there, but I was I wasn't out there as much in that time of year. But now it is intriguing to me, and I I really want to get out there for a lot of reasons. But is there a reason why you like that time of year?
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, like I said, definitely the the crowds are lower. You know, most most people aren't willing to do that, but there's there's something about once again, I guess it's you know, it's working hard. It's a it's a different type of hard work. Um, you need you need to be over prepared in a lot of ways. You need to be very monotonous about what you're doing. You have to learn how to conserve tying time because your fingers are ready to fall off. You know, you gotta Yeah, plan ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta figure out when you hit that threshold of okay, I need to get out of the water for a minute because my feet are probably getting to a dangerous point, you know. So it's a little mixed, but a lot of it also like my my favorite photos a lot of times are in inclement weather, you know, and that's that's one thing that people that's a good photo tip for you is if you feel like you should put the camera away, keep it out. Yeah, and that's you know, not always the not always the best recommendation as far as your equipment goes, but you'll be happy with the photos.
JasonI was gonna ask you how much gear gets wrecked out on those trout streams because I've wrecked my body plenty of times, but so I can't imagine like delicate.
SPEAKER_03Usually I'll sacrifice my body for my camera.
JasonSo that's good. That's good. Uh what's what's too cold for you? What's your what when is there a temperature where you say I ain't going, I ain't doing it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's I mean, I've done it, I'd say under under 20 is pretty cold, you know. I've I've done it multiple times, but you have to think that if it's 20 while you're sitting home on the couch looking outside, it's it's gonna be worse on the river, you know, because you're you're in the elements, and you know, even in Colorado now, it's like you could go up to High Mountain Lake right now and get snowed on at some point, you know. So even when it's cold out, you don't necessarily know exactly what's coming. So you know, you could could get in it caught in a good storm. And my biggest recommendation would be you know, check the forecast to the best of your ability, make sure it's a place that you can get in and out of safely. Um and that's that's one thing I still go to a lot of far-off places in the winter time, but if I'm going somewhere that far, I make sure that I have somebody with me because it is you know, it's a it's a legitimate threat. And um, I've had times like this this spring, I literally got caught in the snowbank for about 12-15 minutes, and you know, if I wasn't in better shape or a better mind, like I I could have just stayed there.
JasonYeah, you gotta be careful. I I have uh and I think that's good advice, Rob, even for even for going up in the mountains. I mean, when you're off the beaten path in Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, it can be July. I've been I've been up in the mountains in July. July or August, I don't remember specifically, but it's the dead of summer and almost froze to death, you know. Yeah, just getting up in the Beartooth Mountains out at a lake. Luckily, you luckily the guy I worked for made us take warm weather coat, you know, made us pack it, which you don't want to pack because you're like, man, I don't want to pack this. It's a beautiful day.
SPEAKER_03That's always the thought everybody's like, I'm not gonna need this, it's bluebird's guys.
JasonThat's right. Um have you ever been stuck? Or you just said that you got in the snowbank there, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that was you know, that was literally so that was early season actually at a high alpine lake. A lot of these lakes, you know, it's literally there's 20 feet of snow up there, so there's uh full on, you know, trees completely buried. Um in that one, I was I was with two guys, they went out ahead, and I wound up you know, post-hole in really hard, went all the way down in, and my foot went underneath a pine tree that I couldn't even see because I was like literally it was 20 feet deep. And you know, it it took a while, I was able to get out, but it was you know just a legitimate threat. And for you know, for people like I'm fairly able-bodied, and um, you know, for somebody that wasn't capable of really pulling all their weight out, like that's a dangerous situation. So you know, I haven't had too many, but a lot of times in the high alpine, like you you'll get a hail storm, you know, it'll be bluebird, and then all of a sudden it'll drop 30 degrees, and you know, as a as a human, 30 degrees is a big drop. Yeah, people don't realize that, and that happens all the time, you know. I it happens to hikers a lot, and yeah, I know a lot of the alpine rescues are just people that go out unprepared, and that's another thing that you have to consider out here, also is I I know a guy who's a big guy in the alpine rescue, and you know, it's when you put yourself in that danger, you put a lot of other people in that danger also because somebody's gonna have to come rescue your ass, you know.
JasonAnd it's no joke, yeah. And those guys are I worked with rescue uh rescue dudes in that in the air force, and they take it it's it's um I don't want to say religion for them, but they're they are going to come get you, you know. That it takes a lot to make them say no, you know, they because it's just like so so ingrained in their DNA to to save people. So that's an awesome point that if you're not being responsible, it's not just you you're putting at risk in the mountains.
SPEAKER_03And you know, the search and rescue teams aren't aren't cheap. Like it's a it's a lot of a lot of work to go out and look for you. And yeah, it's and even for your family, it's like you don't, you know, I don't want to be the guy that disappears in the mountains and wasn't prepared, so nobody knows where I am.
JasonAnd even in the river, I mean, if you don't go by yourself or you're not in shape or something like that, you slip on one of those boulders in 11 in uh Cheeseman Canyon and you can't move and it's cold and no one's with you, I mean you're just as uh you're in just as bad a spot, you know. Maybe you're a little bit better off that somebody might walk around and find you. But I think it's those those are good pieces of advice to kind of keep somebody with you and and know your limits and those types of things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I would always always plan a jacket and plenty of water. Yeah, that's one thing I've seen. I've I've seen a couple guys in Cheeseman Canyon that were like on absolute last last life as far as water goes. And you know, they hike in and waiters, they don't think about the fact that they're gonna sweat all the water they have in their body out, and then they have you know one little bottle of water for a 10-hour day. That doesn't that doesn't hack it.
JasonYeah, that's another thing too. Not even um what about fishing? Is it is there a point where you know that it's not worth it for the fish, or I'm just going to be in nature, but fish are not really uh it's not good fishing, it's too cold.
SPEAKER_03In the winter time, you're saying?
JasonYeah, in the winter.
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah, I mean I'll go out. Generally, I'm not gonna go far off of the beaten path in the wintertime unless I'm hiking the fish.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Uh, you know, there's I know a lot of photographers that are big time landscape junkies. I love taking landscapes also, but you know, I'm not out climbing 14ers every weekend just for the photos, right? And that's that's a funny thing too. I get a lot of people and they say, Man, you know, you hike that far for fish, what are you doing? It's like people hike that far for nothing. Sure, people hike that far just to hike that far. Right.
JasonAnd I think I have old. That's right. That's right. Um any any tips on gear management? Uh have you do you use I don't for I don't I forget what the stuff is that you you can put on the guides for your rod? Does that to keep the ice from building up? Or you mentioned like time like being prepared tight less less time to tie on your fly. Is there other things like that that would be um value added, you think, to pass along to folks that are frozen guides are a pain.
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, I I haven't found like the the magic fix for it yet, but you know, there's there's some stuff out there. Chapstick works a little bit. It's like yeah, so you use like a natural, like a birth bees or something, it will shed some water. Um, you know, you'll probably still get some frozen guides here and there, but not not quite as bad. Um, but let's see, gear-wise. I mean, definitely I've I've found two pairs of good socks are super important in the wintertime.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03So your toes are generally speaking gonna get colder faster than the rest of your body, you know, especially standing in water. So two good pairs of socks. Like I said, if your feet start to get too cold, get out of the water because they're gonna be a lot warmer when they're not immersed in in cold river.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, really good pair of gloves. Um, I would say the the best gloves that I've found are still Sims, um, kind of the fold over mit that they have. And you know, they give you access to your fingers when you need them, but then a mitt that I've gotten fairly used to fishing with if I need to.
JasonRight. Those are the ones that have they're like mittens and gloves.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and they're made of wool, so they yeah, they have kind of the orange wool on the inside, and you know, those gloves are they're probably 60 bucks or something, you know, they're not cheap, but they'll total game changer. I've you know went through several pairs of cheap gloves before I realized like your hands are all you have on the river.
JasonI know. I mean, you know, at some point if your hands are too cold, you lose a fly on a rock, you're not you can't if you can't tie a fly on, you're done for the day, right?
SPEAKER_03So yeah, no, it's that makes it tough. I also um you know obviously not everybody can have a rod vault. I have a rod vault on my truck, which in the winter time is probably the best time to have it because I'll I can rig my whole setup at home. No, like I'm 100% confident when I get to that river, I have great knots. You know, I was did it in the comfort of my home, so I wasn't rushing, I wasn't worried.
JasonUm getting set up ahead of time, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so getting set up ahead of time, you know, because that's that's a hard part too. A lot of guys pull up to the parking lot, it's freezing cold outside, then they get out and they rig up the rod, and by the time the rod's rigged up and their bugs are tied on, they're freezing cold already.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03You know, if if you can get out, you know, I'll try to dress as much as I can inside the car. You know, if you can get out, pull a rod out, and pretty much get moving right away, you'll you'll be you'll be in a much better place for sure.
JasonYeah. Do you use smaller flies a lot? Is that something that I've I've heard about, or is it is it in the winter time, dude? You gotta I mean I think Colorado in general are small flies. Like I know I say that, and then people that fish it all the time are like, you don't know, you you know, we get the big flies too, but I just for me, in my experience, they seem smaller in general, maybe you know. I don't know if that's a fact, that's just my anecdote.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, in the in the winter time, um, you know, kind of the this the thought is like tiny and dark a lot of the time. So the the smaller the fly you can go, the smaller the tippet, the better off you're gonna be. And then for whatever reason, they tend to like dark stuff in the winter time. But um definitely you know, right right now in in Cheesement Canyon, you know, you could be really successful on a on a 22 still, you know, in the summertime. In the wintertime, that 22 they might like to see as a 24, or you know, most guys aren't going that far, but I do fish with 26s.
JasonYeah, that's pretty impressive. I know guys that do that. I I you know, I think I have a blog post about this, uh, and it's about not so much frustration, but just the the small flies or whatever. And I think that you kind of got to do it, you know. You I mean, if you're not gonna catch fish because they're not taking a size 18 or 20, you know, or or whatever, you might as well try and get good at catching fish on 26s because the guys that are catching fish are catching them with 26s. Yeah. You're just gonna have to like I that's my take on it. Like, just just try, push yourself. Like you said, it's harder work, you know, you're gonna get more reward for it.
SPEAKER_03And yeah, I mean, it's not easy for anybody, you know. I've uh I have a word contact, so my eyesight is corrected, but it's still hard as hell for me to see the the eyelid on a on a size 26 fly. You know, that's yeah, that's tough to do, and it's not necessarily that you want to do it, but um, if you look at the actual diet of a trout in that time of year, it's tiny little midges. And you know, this that's match the hatches. You're you're trying to match what their current food source is, and if you want to do that, you gotta suck it up and throw some little stuff. And you know, it's it's funny because I've actually gotten kind of I find it very fascinating because I think most people also like I remember the first time my dad came up and visited me here. I took him out um with a guide buddy of mine and you know showed him a little size 24 style cup betas, and I said, This is what they're gonna eat today. And he was like, What the hell are you talking about?
JasonYou know, unable unable son.
SPEAKER_03Most people don't even, you know, you don't even comprehend that a a fish that big would be eating a bug that small, but yeah, that's what they're eating.
JasonWell, yeah, and it's so cold in winter, you know. What what other food source is there too, you know? I mean, unless they're eating other fish, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, there's there's really not that much. It's like midges are are their primary ones because midges are really the only ones that are gonna be hatching in the wintertime. And you know, there still are some bugs that are in the water year round, but they're not necessarily on the move. It's like stone stone flies are in the water year round, but they're not hatching, they're not they're not blasting around the river.
JasonSo when you say hatching, is there in the wintertime like that in Colorado, do you ever get a hatch where there's um dry flies? And I mean like snow, January, like winter time, because I know in the late fall and BWOs and things like that. I've I've been cold on the river with dry flies in Colorado, but I haven't been in the places on the river in some of the photographs that I see you doing. I haven't been that far, but like I said, I'm going. I'm going there.
SPEAKER_03But uh, no, there's there's definitely some opportunity there. You know, that's uh obviously way less, um, but I have seen it, you know, a lot of it'll depend on the water and kind of what the regular bug life is there, anyways. Um, the blue river is one place where I've seen some really good hatches in the wintertime, and yeah, I know a couple guys that will go way way far on the blue and you know, go in with some tiny midges and the the idea like I'm I'm gonna be the one stubborn guy that catches a fish on a tiny little dry fly today. And you know, there is a place it's just there's not gonna be 20 actively feeding fish, probably. There might be a couple, right? Um, and I think that's one big difference is you know, certain fish may key on key in on them, but not the majority of fish are gonna key in on them.
JasonYeah. Does it does the cold weather like that um is it a big big change to your uh approach to photography? Do you I mean, do you have to do a lot different in the with the snow and all that, or same principles apply, just different, you know, do you do you say like I'm going out today, it's a cold, snowy day, I need to bring or do something different than I normally do?
SPEAKER_03Probably like too much to Netanver, but um you know, not not necessarily, you know, I have a couple pieces. Um I have a a lens coat is actually I think the brand name of it is lens coat. Um lens coat is basically a raincoat for your for your camera.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, so you know, generally something like that, I'll bring something that's um I can definitely cover my camera up if I have it out, and say it's just dumping snow. That is kosher for a little while, but you know, even even with fully professional gear, um, you know, it's uh it's a little tough to have total faith in in the weather ceiling on your camera. So, you know, I like to have a lens coat like that. Like I said, I think the biggest part is really just keeping myself comfortable, right? So, you know, the socks, the gloves, you know, a good good beanie, a good head, good waiters.
JasonNo holes in the waiters, and that's and that's a tough one, man.
SPEAKER_03No holes in the waiters.
JasonThat's like you definitely notice it's not like in the summer, you're like, I think I I think I have a hole in my waiter. I'm not sure if whatever, like you know, yeah, no, you know it pretty quick.
SPEAKER_03But I would I would say that's the biggest difference is just being sure that I'm prepared because you know it's it's nice to have all your camera gear ready, but if you're not ready to deal with the elements, it doesn't matter if your camera is.
JasonYeah. Um so where can people find out about you if they want to learn more about Rob Herman and your photography and things like that?
SPEAKER_03So I am very active on Instagram. Um, I'm not super active on Facebook anymore, but I generally shoot all my Instagram stuff over there. So my Instagram is R Herman Photog. I spell Herman the hardest way possible, which is H E R R M A N N. So it's R H E R R M A N N Photog.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um, I am on Facebook is Rob Herman. I also have a page Rob Herman Photography. And if anybody wants to check out a little bit of my portfolio. If you go to Robherman.com, it'll take you straight to a little bit of kind of some of my portfolio work. And I wouldn't say that it's been updated in a while. So I should probably do that. But there's a little mix of stuff. You know, there's some personal stuff, there's some product stuff on there. And um, you know, I'd try to get out and about, but these days also being busy with work, it's funny to see if I'm if I'm not super active on socials, it means I'm super active with my business. So it's probably a good thing if I'm not posting all the time.
JasonYeah, I understand that for sure. Um well we can we'll definitely link that in the show notes so people can have access to all those things. And cool. Um I see you on Instagram uh posting stuff. That's how I I found out about you. But when I went to your when I went to your website and really looked at some of your portfolios and stuff, I was like, wow man. So that's why I wasn't surprised when you told me you're pro, you're doing it full time. It's it's not a yeah, it's a professional kind of operation.
SPEAKER_01So thanks, man.
JasonVery cool.
SPEAKER_03I think that so I'll take it.
JasonWhat's that?
SPEAKER_03I don't always get that, so I'll take it.
JasonOkay. Do you uh any projects coming up that you want to talk about? Yeah, either fly fishing or non-fly fishing, or or anything that you're doing that you think uh you want to share with people?
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, I I didn't talk about it much, but I am a big hunter also. Um, I'm really really into archery. I love bow hunting, so uh yep, there we go. Got the bear archery guy.
JasonI just started last year, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03You you drop a fortune on a bow, they give you a hat.
JasonYeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, so September I'll be doing uh uh lot of mainly elk hunting footage. Um, so I've got a few different groups, I've got some product work that I'm doing for a couple of camo companies, um got a knife company, just a couple of accessories and stuff. And so that's really fun because this year my main goal is to is to harvest an elk myself, um, which last couple of years. Um I haven't haven't had the opportunity. Last year I was so busy shooting that, uh shooting photos that I didn't really have that much time to hunt myself. So that's kind of first and foremost. This this year is I'm gonna try to get a shot myself. You know, I'll be taking photos the whole time also, but um definitely a a bunch of fun projects as far as elk hunting goes. Um, got a couple guys with mule deer tags, bear tags, and then um in November I'll go back to New York, which I do every year for Whitetail, where I grew up. So a couple fun hunting ones, but you know, just uh kind of continuing to keep pushing with fishing. I have a few projects lined up for October that'll be kind of the end of high mountain season, you know, kind of get to where the the summer season starts to wrap up. And um I wouldn't say anything super specific, but I know that I'll be out in the woods somewhere, somewhere.
JasonSounds good. Well, I you you already covered my last question that I had planned uh about advice for somebody that wants to to be a photographer and is on that beginner journey, uh, like you talked about, just go after it, right? Get after it and do it. Um, so my other my other question then is do you you find it difficult ever, or do you ever separate? I'm not bringing the camera, I'm just going for myself, or like when you're on a job and you're you're working, you know, you're taking pictures, but are you like, man, I wish I was fishing right now? Or is it you know, does it ruin it for you at all? Do you have to, you know, because a lot of people I've heard right ask and they're they're like, well, I was thinking about guiding, but I didn't want to because I it's special for me and I don't want it to become work. So how do you balance that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean that is a tough balance. I would say there's rarely a disconnect there for me. Like I'm gonna I'm gonna have a camera one way or another. There's certainly days where I don't pull it out very often, right? Um, and you know, those days are really important to me also. So like I said, a lot of you know, I have a lot of retainers also to where I'm I'm working for companies and I'm doing some work on some of my adventures, right? Um, so you know that that kind of makes it a little bit different. But I certainly actually today, this afternoon, I'm gonna go out with a buddy and just kind of fish for a couple hours. And uh unfortunately he's a photographer also, so I'm sure we'll shoot some stuff.
JasonTake pictures of each other, taking pictures.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but we'll consider it more of a of a joy trip. And you know, I think a lot of it is just kind of finding a a healthy balance there, which is uh is definitely a tough thing, but right I I really enjoy what I do, and um you know, one one thing that I always kind of refer back to also is when I am taking photos, I feel like I learn a lot more behind the camera than I do behind a fly rod. Yeah, and that's one thing that you don't you don't need a camera for that. You know, it's the the power of observation on the river is immense. And to go out and you know, observe other people fishing, whether they're better than you or worse than you, you're gonna learn a lot. And that's really like I'd say the the best education I get on the river is when I'm photographing people and I get to see the missed hook sets and the good hook sets, and I get to watch the fish more, you know, observing the fish and observing their habits and not necessarily just focusing on the indicator, but actually like getting to, you know, kind of absorb everything around.
JasonUh you're watching it.
SPEAKER_03Your hand a lot of times, it's like your one-track mind, you know, you're kind of stuck on the indicator. Sure, maybe you're looking for fish movement and stuff, but it's just uh it's a lot easier to disconnect from the the obsession of pounding water when you're when you're stepped back a little ways.
JasonYeah, I totally agree with all that. I'm not gonna comment any further on it because I think you said it very well. Uh I think you said it really well, you know, the observation on the river is powerful. So I really appreciate you coming on the show, Rob, and uh hopefully see you out there again someday, maybe go fishing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure, Jason. Next time you get out here, I'll get on the river, I promise.
JasonThanks for listening to the Wade Out There Fly Fishing Podcast. You can learn more about some of the topics we discussed in today's episode show notes. For more fly fishing ideas, stories, and artwork, check out my blog and online gallery at waitouthair.com. If you want to make Wade Out There a part of your own fly fishing journey, please subscribe and share. Until next time, Wade Out There.