Take Heart

How The Church Unknowingly Makes Special Needs Families Feel Unwelcome

• Amy J Brown, Carrie Holt and Sara Clime • Season 3 • Episode 117

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The statistics are staggering. 90% of families with special needs feel ignored, unwelcomed, or devalued in churches. This is a huge number, and it shows how much work needs to be done to make churches more inclusive. The overall feeling of special needs families is that they want to feel wanted, accepted, and seen. Carrie, Amy, and Sara discuss the experiences of special needs families and how churches can change. Through church education, accommodations, and empathy, families could feel welcomed and cared for.

Ep. 117; February 28, 2023

Key Moments:
[4:37] Encouraging adoption, but unwilling to deal with traumatized kids
[7:16] Churches aren’t ADA-compliant, and it’s apparent to us 
[12:55] The parents and those who have disabilities are the experts; ask us!
[18:29] Kids with hidden disabilities and/or trauma need a point person and kindness, not judgment
[23:33] Advocate for their child inside the walls of their church
[38:47] Things the church has done well

Resources:
Episode 113: Interview with Amber Reynolds
Ep. 88: Interview with Barb Stanley
Wonderful Works Ministry
SOAR

If you enjoyed the show:

Carrie M Holt  0:00  
Welcome to Take Heart, where our goal is to offer encouragement give hope and insight, so you can flourish in your journey as a special needs mom. As we explore monthly themes, share inspiring stories and practical tips, our desire is that you are connected and encouraged. 

This month on Take Heart, we've been talking about supporting the special needs mom and the special needs family. For our collaborative tday, we're going to dive into talking about the church, churches in general and the body of Christ, and how unknowingly a lot of times they make families who have children with special needs feel unwelcome. I can tell you that we hesitated a little bit about doing this podcast episode, because we certainly don't want it to sound like we are bashing churches. On the other hand, we do feel like it is important for us to be the voice of a lot of families. Some of the stories that we're going to share today aren't necessarily our personal stories, we have polled friends and others, so we might be sharing anonymously, different stories. We also want to shed some awareness on what can be done differently; for our voices, as special needs moms and families that they are heard in the arena of church. One of the things that we would like for you to hear is that all three of us are fairly involved in our churches. We are committed to being in church and to the body of believers. We have had some of these feelings and there are other people that have had these feelings. I know that I personally have pulled into the parking lot and wanted to turn around and leave, and I've been in church since I was a child. How are others feeling who may be aren't that committed to being a part of a body of believers? For our listeners to know and for those who are in the church to know that sometimes, it is really difficult to get through the doors of a church. 

As I was preparing for this podcast, I started doing some research. Sara has also done some research related to her master's degree, and we both came up with some statistics. These are actually pretty staggering. Here's some statistics that I would like to share with you today. Around 90% of already present families, who are currently attending churches, often feel ignored, unwelcomed or devalued. 90%. Let that number sink in. We also have heard of parents who have either explicitly or implicitly been asked to leave the church, whether it's the worship center, the Sunday school room, or have been asked to always remain with their child when they're on church premises. This last statistic is very staggering to me: only five to ten percent of the world's disabled or the disabled community are effectively being reached with the gospel, making the disabled community one of the largest unreached or under reached hidden people groups in the world. I feel like that statistic is extremely staggering, because I know that our churches have a heart for missions and reaching those across the world, bet, the the disabled community is right in our backyard. They're in our neighborhoods, they're in our churches, and that percentage is really high. Lastly, I want to mention that the overall feeling of special needs families, communities, and those who have disabilities is that we want to feel wanted, accepted and seen. When we know that those in the church are trying to make an effort, however imperfect that might look, that there's care and empathy, then we're going to do our best to make it work and that this is a partnership of us working together. First of all to get started, I would like to ask the question to our group today. Amy, we're gonna start with you. What is one way that the church has unknowingly made families similar to yours feel unwelcome?

Amy J. Brown  4:23  
That's a good question. I talk to a lot of moms with kids, adoptive kids, foster kids that are neurodiverse or have come from trauma. I think the most obvious way that we feel unwelcome is we start out with this: Let's adopt. It's in Scripture to take in the orphan. People are behind you. They gather baby clothes for you. They get meals and you have all the support. Then, down the road you're asked not to come, and you're judged for what's going going on in your home, what's going on with your parenting. You go from being top of the world; everyone's behind you to literally people shunning you. I don't want to use too strong of a word, but that is the word. I've heard mom after moms say, "I've been asked not to come back. The same church that encouraged me to do this thing, now, isn't here for me." I understand that when you see negative behavior, if you don't have an understanding of trauma, and all the things that go with that; I understand that there's some concerns about behavior. In my experience, and in the experience of the women I talk to that the church is handling it, isn't very helpful at all. It's more shaming than helpful. That has been my experience, specifically because I attended this very small church. I was able to have conversations with people. I think that's a lot harder in a bigger church. That's what I'm hearing from the moms I talked to.

Carrie M Holt  6:06  
I feel like there needs to be overall (Amber talked about this in the podcast in January) an education, about trauma. I actually saw her post the other day that in different scenarios, they are still quoting statistics that are 30 to 40 years old on trauma. We have modern studies and modern research being done that. I was just reading in John Eldredge's book Resilient about mother attachment. One of the biggest statistics is that these kids will steal, and it has been proven over and over and over again, but yet at the same time, just like you said, we are turning our backs. When it starts into that category of behavior, then we're turning away from these families. Sara, what about you what is one way that the church has unknowingly made families similar to yours, or maybe you're representing another family and their story feel unwelcome?

Sara Clime  7:16  
I can speak for the community that has disabilities (the physical disabilities) is churches aren't required by law for ADA compliancy. They don't have to have ramps; they do not have to have ADA compliant seating. Their screens do not have to be visibly compliant for the blind. They can have all the fancy smoke, and they can have all of that. They don't have to worry about sensory issues; they do not have to worry about any of that. To be fair, a lot of them don't even know about it. Most of them unknowingly aren't welcoming because these families don't even come in the door. Why even bother? Most of the time, it is fighting to get things that are required by law at school. Wvery day just trying to get out the door to get accommodations for our child that they need for education, for health, to stay alive, especially like when they're medically complex. You stay on the phone. Carrie, you know this, and, Amy, therapies when you're trying to get your child to just stay in school or to just actually be a part of society on any on any realm, or you just need saline. I need the common basics. The last thing you're going to do is to try to get up and teach a lot of people, especially a lot of older people who are in leadership and let's just be honest. In our society, it's a lot of older people that are leaders, don't understand it's very utopia in the church. Let's be kind. We're going to show you how kind Jesus is and that's lovely. See that step? It might as well be Mount Everest. I can't get into the utopia. It's all fine and good, but if I can't get into the building...One of the things that when we started advocating for our church, we were fortunate enough, when my, my son was eight, they had already learned to love him. We were already a part of church. There was another family that the mom was born in the church. I mean, she was a part of it. Her father was an elder. So she was a part of it. They knew us, they loved us. They said, "Come speak to us, tell us about TJ's diagnosis, we want to help." We were very fortunate, and they loved on us. My son's diagnosis was progressive, so we were able to slowly change things. Our ours was very different; I will acknowledge that. It's still been frustrating, because they don't know what they don't know. One of the things is, you walk into a church and I'm talking to able bodied people or even people who don't have invisible disabilities. I'm specifically talking to physical disabilities. You walk into the church, you go and your biggest decision when you go to worship is where do you want to sit? You go and you pick your seat. Ours is, which aisle do you want to sit in? Because you're going to be...

Carrie M Holt  11:18  
I mean, stuck in the aisles.

Sara Clime  11:22  
A lot of our children are the center of attention, they do not want to be the center of attention. They don't want to be out in the aisle. So, w're stuck in the back. All you see are a sea of behinds, and then we can't see anything on stage anyway. Why even go to church? It's all of these things. If you're out in the aisle, or you're in the back, it takes you forever to leave, because people then congregate around your child. Excuse me, please move away, so my child can actually leave because they're invisible to people. It's a domino effect of people not paying attention. Again, they don't know what they don't know. Once you mention it, people so sorry, and then they avoid you. I think the key we're saying is, unknowingly.

Carrie M Holt  12:17  
Yeah, but I think at some point, and that kind of leads into my way that the church unknowingly makes us feel unwelcome is that some of us have been around church for a long time. Yet, when decisions are being made about accessibility, or a new church is being built, or the parking lot is being redone, or whatever decisions are being made: bathrooms are being renovated. They don't come to us and ask for our opinion. We are the experts, the parents, and those who have disabilities are the experts. If you're not using us and not giving us a voice, I think that's a shame. I feel like that is is one way that sometimes that happens, because we are more than willing to sit down with you and educate. We're used to educating people. We're used to educating doctors, therapists, the school. We would love to sit down and have these conversations with you. Please, ask take the time to ask and be aware. I think that's what we're asking is that we know, it's unknowing. I think they're we're getting to the point where I mean, these statistics are staggering. One of the statistics about the number of people in the world that have a disability is rising. The CDC numbers are just really high. This is going to be part of life. We have a hugely aging population also. Another thing I'd like to mention right here, too, is just that, I think it's really important that the education of all of the staff, even those who are not in direct contact with people who have disabilities; the education is across the board. I'm in a little bit of a larger church. It stretches from the people who are greeting at the door to the people checking in the kids. The education is not just happening for those who are the buddies of those kids, but it's all the leaders, the youth leaders, the children's leaders. I would like to put a plug in here for Barb Stanley and her Wonderful Works Ministry, Sandra Peoples, and SOAR, and we'll have links to these in the show notes. They are making things very accessible and making education very easy for all the staff, and all the volunteers. 

Sara Clime  15:08  
It's plug and play. I would also like to say to one of the things that I think is very easy to do is for your staff to encourage them to get manual wheelchairs, and get your staff in pairs of twos and simulate what it's like to walk thrugh church activities. We have our annual barbecue that is out in the back lot. We're gonna walk through some examples. It's time to go get food. Go fill your plate, and have them pretend to go fill their plate. Now, go mingle. All of a sudden say, you need to go to the restroom. What are you going to do? Have them try to go into the building? I would almost say, maybe in Amy's case, would that work for invisible disabilities? Here are some of the issues that you have with your instance, Amy. Would that work?

Amy J. Brown  16:15  
I don't know. I was just sitting here going, that wouldn't work for my kids. How, would something like that work? I don't know. My brain was spinning, how could I adapt that to those with invisible disabilities? 

Sara Clime  16:29  
Sometimes people need that visual. Because for us, it's like, oh, you need to go to the restroom?

Amy J. Brown  16:36  
I think that's a great idea. 

Sara Clime  16:39  
You cannot stand up. Oh, the doors are really heavy. A lot of times, they just don't understand it. I say this with the most love. Should we just put that statement out there? I want to say I'm not speaking to people in my church. The majority of people at your church love you, and they want to make it work. With that said, we are a group of human people. I have my grandma in my head, and she always said, "You're gonna get some stinkers in there." That's all I can think of. You're going to get people that they don't want to go out of their way. My husband and I and this other couple that started the disability ministry in our church, we finally had to say, are we going to sit around and complain and go to another church? We live in a rural community where we knew there wasn't anything else out there. We didn't want to leave the church that we loved and the people that we love that we knew were willing to help and put money towards it, and to change things. That's right,  you don't want to sit on the aisle. How many seats do you want removed? They removed seats, so our children didn't have to sit out in the aisle. You want slipcovers? We have these little old ladies that will make slip covers. Actually, it wasn't little old ladies, Linda, I'm sorry. She's not a little old lady. She's not old. Oh my word. She's listening. She's not old. Anyway. You want weighted blankets? Let's make them. You have people there. You have resources and count on them. You're gonna find people who don't want to help: ignore them, and focus on the people that do.

Carrie M Holt  18:29  
Amy, I think that I don't know how many of the videos that you've watched from Barb Stanley's Wonderful Works Ministry, but she has a lot of videos about kids who have hidden disabilities. I know that's her heart. They are excellent for educating all the staff. I have volunteered in children's ministry for a long time as a former teacher, and I want to know better how to meet the needs of these kids. I don't want to walk into a situation and be completely unaware and an unarmed with not using the right resources or not using the right tools. I think these are tools that are being under utilized. They are not being utilized. They're out there, whether it's just because of lack of awareness, or just there's so many things going on. 

Amy J. Brown  19:27  
I guess I was just thinking that there are tools out there. When a child comes in, in a wheelchair, it's obvious to everybody. Some of the behaviors that our children have are not things you're going to put on the prayer list. You almost need a...Some of the behaviors like Carrie, you said stealing; kids who come from orphanages have food scarcity, they're gonna steal like When they're breaking the 10 commandments (big church no, no's), that's really hard for people to be compassionate towards. They have this idea, oh, they're in a home now with food and love and all the things. I was thinking about this earlier. Some churches have what are called parish nurses, and they are the nurses that like go with the elderly people to the doctor. You almost need one person in the church, that when you have kids that have sensitive behaviors (some of these kids act out sexually, some of these kids act out violently), one person that can be your point person. So, you can say, here's what we need, and here's what's going on. If your child has severe behavior, you have to be with them. If you have one person, because it's kind of hard to go through the whole rigmarole of: these are the negative behaviors, because they scare people, and they link those to spirituality. That's hard to get around in a church to get people to understand that there's trauma involved. I'm just thinking about I wish some of the moms I've talked to, they had just one point person at church, so they didn't have to repeat the sensitive topics again and again and again. It's not our story to tell if your child came from abuse or drug and alcohol exposure, that's not our story that we want the whole church to know. A point person, who could go to the pastors and the people that need to help would be so helpful in the situation of kids that come from trauma, in my opinion.

Carrie M Holt  21:29  
One of the things that I used to tell hospital staff when I would speak to hospital staff is, before you make an assumption, ask a question. I think that this applies across the board, but especially in your situation. I had a friend share with me that just a lot of times when she'll pick up her kids from the children's area, she often feels like she's just being judged. Instead of them actually listening. She'll try to explain our kids behaviors, and she feels like it's falling on deaf ears because they're just automatically making judgments. You're a bad parent, or whatever this is. I think that we are so quick to pass judgment, and we need to start asking questions. What does your child need? What? Clearly, you are a Caucasian mom, with skin that tone children that have different different skin tone? What what do I need to know what how can I help what what can I do? And I just think that that is a huge, huge aspect of this that

Amy J. Brown  22:44  
Another thing you have to remember is that some especially kids with reactive attachment disorder, they're pretty convincing liars. They can make up stories about their parents, which I've been in that situation more than once. I'm like, oh, yeah, there was a lie told about me. They can be convincing that is part of their trauma. That's another aspect where you're already walking into a pre loaded situation, where your kids acting out, they've told a story about you that may or may not be true. We're taught to listen to kids, right? We're taught to listen when they say things. That's another situation that unique to parents of kids with RAD, especially. They already go in with their armor up because they've been caught unaware by lies told by their own child about them.

Sara Clime  23:33  
I'd like to say one more thing, too, is I think that a lot of times where we tend to not share a lot in the church setting with our children, especially because in the church setting, our children become that token miracle. It's well, God's got it all under control, or God will perform a miracle, and we might not want to hear that. We hold a lot close to the vest. I'm speaking from other moms that I've spoken to, so not necessarily mine. I think we either don't go or we hold a lot of what's going on close to the vest because we get pat answers sometimes in certain instances. The statistic that you gave where the 90% feel ignored. I did a little bit of a deeper dive on that one. Feeling ignored goes a lot further than you just didn't get acknowledged walking in the door. That ignored statement. was more than people just didn't get a hello. It wasn't that people didn't get a welcome to so and so church. It was broader than that. I wanted to throw that out there. Sometimes we feel in a perfect world, we shouldn't have to advocate at church. That is not true. Unfortunately, the advocacy extends to church as well. I think church might only be 45 minutes out of your week, but it really extends throughout the whole week. It's really every aspect of our life; our faith is. If anything, that is the community that we need to fight for and advocate for the most. I would just say, that's where I tend to have to remind myself it might physically only be 45 minutes of my week. That's where I need to really buckle down and realize people are wanting to help, but they don't have the tools, and I need to speak up.

Carrie M Holt  26:08  
That's really a good segue into my next question: for our listeners, who are special needs parents and they are coming up against some of these things we've talked about or other barriers; what is one piece of advice you would give them on advocating for their child inside the walls of their church?

Amy J. Brown  26:29  
I'll go first, Sara, you have to keep asking. You cannot assume that they understand what's going on. Moms of kids with the kind of disabilities my kids have, half the time I don't know what's going on. Why is this happening? We've talked before how it's hard to figure out what is it they can control? What can they not control. I think it's important before you go in to have really clear directives on what you need. Nobody can help you, if you don't know what you need. If you expect everybody in the church should open arms to your kid, that's very unrealistic. I would say in a specific situation, it could be that the kids can't go to Sunday school because their behavior I would specifically ask, "Can we have one person with my child?" Because I never get a break from this child, and so I'd like to go to worship. Could I have one person? Maybe it's, you want the Sunday School teachers to understand. Can I add,  can we educate our staff on trauma? Guys, you would not believe the women that have told me that their pastors totally dismiss trauma from kids who come from foster care and orphanages. My son was an orphanage for 10 years, you can't tell me he doesn't have trauma. He has a lot of trauma. It's just dismissed under this, and also discouragement of getting any kind of mental health help in the church specifically. I'm not saying Jesus doesn't make all things new. I think it's Jillanna Goble who said, "We need Jesus and therapy." She said it in one of our podcast epsiodes, we can link that one too. I don't remember the episode. I think you have to be really specific because I say all the time to moms, "It's a marathon. It's not going to be fairy dust and everything happens that goes your way." What are one or two way very specific things that you can ask for. Even those little things, like being able to sit in church. It's not this lady is going to sit with my kid. That lady that sitting with your kid needs to know about your child because there's this dread the whole time you're not with your child. What are they doing? What are they doing? What report am I going to get? That's a constant stress of moms of kids that have behavioral issues. I guess that's what I would say, make sure your staff is educated on trauma, and then be very specific about one or two things that would make your life and your journey just a little easier in regards to the church.

Carrie M Holt  29:04  
Sara, how about you? Do you have a word of advice for advocating? 

Sara Clime  29:08  
This is not ideal, because I think we all want to go into church and be able to drop our children off at Sunday school, or the event and walk in and worship like other typical parents. That is not the life we were handed. That is it's not the life we are handed for school. It's not the life we were handed for normal doctor's appointments. That is not going to happen at churches either. The way that I tell other parents, who say how did you get your disability ministry started? How did you get your church involved? How did you get other people to start this disability ministry? I have had a couple of people ask that. I said, other people didn't start it, we started it. That's like saying, you know who would be really good for a singles ministry, a 70 year old man, a married couple. They would be really good at starting the single's ministry. Then they could tell the singles how great it is to be married. That would be wonderful The nursery should be started by an 18 year old college kids. We keep saying, we're the experts, we're gonna have to be the ones to start it. We're gonna have to be the ones to at least then advocate and get it started, and make sure it stays on the right path.

Carrie M Holt  30:33  
That can be so hard though, because sometimes we're the ones who need the life raft, and yet we're having to provide it for ourselves, which is difficult. Let's acknowledge that that is so hard.

Sara Clime  30:47  
But like you had said before, and we're gonna have links in the show notes, we have so many resources. This is the second part of what I would suggest, be educated on what your church stands for. Our church is all about outreach. They want to do outreach. They want to disciple other people, they want to reach people who have not been who have not been reached by the gospel, that is their number one mission. We came in hot. Do you know how many, how many people with disabilities and special needs are not being reached by the gospel? Here you go. How many people in our community with disabilities do not go to church? Here you go. Then we said, "Do you know how many times, knowing how much you love us, that we have wanted to leave the church, knowing that you love us, and giving personal examples? It was difficult; it was emotional. I ugly, cried. It's vulnerable, and they listened to us, and they cried with us. It was hard. We had to put some time in. We actually sat down with Doc from SOAR, and he helped us, he gave us documents. All we had to do is change SOAR to our ministry aim. It was brilliant. It was literally plug and play, we started the ministry, our church was completely on board. Now we have volunteers that aren't special needs families, but we have trained them. We say, "If you have a behavioral issue, you do not blame the parents, you do not say this, this is how you approach it. If you do not feel you could approach it in the right way, you call us on this walkie talkie, and we can provide the feedback to the parent in the right way." We have we have that type of ministry now. I would say those two things: know that you're going to have to do some work, know that you're the expert, but that there's resources out there, and with time, you can grow it and other people will want to help.

Carrie M Holt  32:58  
I think my word of advice for advocating too is  similar to what Amy said, be aware of what you need. go in and ask and set up those meetings with the staff and the pastors and, have those papers made up and things like that. Be proactive instead of reactive. We want our churches to be that way. I think we have to be that way also. With any advocacy situation, you know, whether you have a conflict, let's say with a doctor, there's this give and take, right? You try to advocate with kindness, and state your needs, and be firm. Going in with guns blazing and accusatory tones, and all of that isn't going to get you anywhere either. People want to be treated with kindness. I think it it's, it's really important to set up those meetings. There have been times over the last 16 years that I've had to bring my husband into the situation and tap out and say I'm too emotionally invested in this, and I am going to bite somebody's head off. I am going to sit there and cry my eyes out. Sometimes, space and time is needed and having a support person in your life that can go in and step in and say hey. They're willing to read that email before you send it, or willing to, to go in with you and be a partner with you whether it's your spouse or another family member or friend that can help be an advocate on your behalf. Let's face it, sometimes we're too exhausted to do the advocating, and we need that we need that help.

Amy J. Brown  34:50  
I would also add that at time, we're too hurt. We're hurt by things people have said or the times that people haven't been nice to our kids. I think also, around this is a lot of time, in quiet and prayer asking God to help you not be resentful. I could see going in and thinking, well, this isn't going to work and this person is really not very nice. Embodying the mission of the church and the mission of us in the church is embody love to others. It's easy to go in with a chip on our shoulder not because we know it all, but because we're hurt. We're hurt by being rejected. We're hurt by things people have said. I know for me, I'm not very adversarial in personality to begin with, but I can harbor those inner resentments of, "well, this didn't work or nobody gets it." Taking a step back before you even go in, and saying God softened my heart about this. I think sometimes as moms, we're so ready to go that we forget that that God is with us in this too. We're already out the gate and fighting. I've thought about that a lot. I don't want to inwardly be rolling my eyes constantly at all the people that have hurt us or hurt people in our situations. That's part of advocating is softening your heart a little bit to asking God to help you soften your heart, so you can not go in with that kind of attitude, because that only hurts us. Honestly.

Sara Clime  36:25  
I would also caution though, definitely pray and take that moment to breathe. I alwasy say, "Go in and go in assume best intention, assume they have best intention." I also would caution, that just because it's a church, doesn't mean that you don't speak truth in love to them. There have been times where I have had to go to people in the church setting where I have had to say, this has happened, I have spoken several times, this will change. This is ridiculous. This needs to this needs to stop. It was something very simple. I had to say this is why it needs to change. It does not seem like a big deal to you, but this is why it is a big deal to my son. I had to explain why it was a big deal. This was years ago, and somebody that's no longer even with our church or anything like that. Their response, "I am so glad that you finally said that." I did have to approach it in a very direct manner.  I had to finally get to that point where it was like listen. I went mama mode. It was truth and love. I think sometimes when it comes to church, it's like, oh, I have to be a good Christian girl. I can't do it. Maybe I'm speaking for myself, it's either it's all or nothing.

Amy J. Brown  38:07  
Well, I wasn't saying you don't speak truth in love. I can't go in bitter and resentful, so I have to work on that part of me. I do think we kind of dance around the subject, and we do need to be direct with this is what we need. Because this is one place we want our kids to be of any place. I mean, obviously we want our kids to have an education and all of these other things. This is so important to who our kids are, that it's important to advocate for them. in that setting.

Carrie M Holt  38:38  
How about we close with this last question? What is one way whether it's you or someone else that you felt like you were seen, and the church did something well.

Sara Clime  38:55  
We have. We've had quite a few actually. I think it's not so much one thing. I want to speak to one person. We have had an elder in our church that from the very moment we were diagnosed, we were pulled aside and we said what can we do for you as a family? What can we do for TJ? What can we do? Honestly we didn't know at the beginning what we could do for TJ. For anybody that is new TJ has a progressive aggressive diagnosis and it's terminal. We just didn't know at that time, we were in a big fog. We had one elder that pulled us aside and said, "We're going to help with whatever with TJ, but one thing that you guys said to us is that over 85% of marriages, (I think it was closer to 90% of marriages) ended up in divorce with this specific diagnosis." My husband's specifically asked because he was on the leadership team at church (and still us), "I want you to pray for our marriage because this is something that was a concern to us." He said, "Okay, I will definitely do that. What else can we do?" We gave him a few things. To this day, almost every Sunday, he will put his hands on my shoulder and asked me how I'm doing. I know now I can never say fine. There are days where I see him coming,  and I want to duck in another room because I am emotionally charged. I don't want to say it, because I know he's going to ask me. Fine is not gonna cover it. He follows my writing. He's gonna see that post, or he's gonna know that there was a doctor's appointment last week or, and I just feel seen. TJ doesn't like to be touched. He won't look you in the eye. He doesn't want anything like that. This one gentleman will tap him on the shoulder. I don't even know if he knows that TJ doesn't like to be touched. " Hi, TJ, good morning. How are you doing buddy?" TJ looks him in the eye and says hello. I don't know if TJ is like me and thinks, he's gonna do it anyway, let's just get it over with like, I don't know if that's where it is. But, you feel seen. I think that is underrated. I think that goes back to that 90% of just feeling ignored. You can do the ramps, and all of that is easy. You can take out a couple seats; you can make the font white on black on the screens to where those who are visually impaired can see; you can do things where the deaf can have accommodations, but to feel like you are heard and seen on a deep level, and truly, truly understood, and that they want to know. That's just irreplaceable. Those don't happen because of ADA compliancy or because I've advocated that's because he took the time to really hear. We're scared. We don't know what's going to happen. He took it upon himself to care. That's it. There's just nothing remarkable. There's been a couple times where we've had a staff member that said, "Hey, we're planning this event." Our youth minister not too long ago, blew a big chunk of his budget, on a bus, a charter bus that was accessible, so TJ could get on the bus and go to the ARK. That was the first youth trip TJ had been able to go on out of town. That was phenomenal. I don't think he understood. There was another individual that had needs that he was able to come as a guest. That's huge. 

Carrie M Holt  43:16  
To not feel separated from everybody; that's huge.

Amy J. Brown  43:22  
There's a lady in my church that looks at my kids with interest and delight. They don't get that look very often. She's always happy to see him and wants to talk to them and see how they're doing. I am using this in big air quotes, because they're not problem children, but are considered the problem children. It's hard to get family out the door anyway to church, but try getting kids with behavioral problems out the door. By the time I get to church, I don't want to look at them. Even I'm not looking very kindly at them at that point. The fact that she would consistently do that meant the world to me, because they don't get that look from the world.

Sara Clime  44:03  
I think that's a good thing. If there's any ministry leaders, or staff members listening to this, where you hear disability ministry, I'm sure you hear litigation, legal issues, elevators, dollar signs, money. I'm not discounting those; those are huge issues, and that's a lot to consider. The two things that Amy and I (physical and invisible disabilitie) two different spectrums of disabilities. None of that cost any money. There was no physical effort. It simply was an act of Jesus. That's what the church is. I just wanted to point that out.

Carrie M Holt  44:52  
Well, and my story is the same just when we we had a time where we moved far away from our other church and we're looking for a new. After six months of looking, we went to this with the church where we are now. The children's pastor at the time, had grown up next door to a girl who had the same diagnosis as my son, Toby, Spinal Bifida. He saw Toby. He saw him as a person. He proactively had set up, buddies and different things like that. At the time, there weren't a lot of kids in the church that had special needs. But that encourages me on a couple levels. One, because  I think that's the overwhelming theme of this episode is that, human nature, our need is to be seen, and especially those who are going to be judged by behavior or how they look and their wheelchairs or whatever it is. Secondly, I think this is encouragement for our siblings that are around children with special needs, or the neighbors or the friends at school, you will never know how your life experience might be a blessing to someone later on, and what God might call you to do in the lives of those who truly need it because you've had exposure, you have had experience. God might use you to see someone else who needs that. On that note, Amy, I think this episode was impactful. I know the Lord was in it, and will you pray for us to end it.

Amy J. Brown  46:41  
Dear Lord, you are a God who sees us, help us to see others. Help us to partner with you in supporting families as we build your church. Open the hearts of those who have unknowingly hurt us. Help us to forgive and advocate with grace. Open the hearts of our church, to our children. Help us to have courage when we need it. Help us to embody the love of Christ to all people. Open our eyes to see your love and mercy. Amen.

Carrie M Holt  47:14  
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