The RE Podcast
The RE Podcast
S14 E5: The One About Islamophobia
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Please send The RE Podcast a Text Message!
1st February was National Hijab Day! This episode is a detailed exploration of Islamophobia with Bismha Afzal, Schools Coordinator with Educate Against Islamophobia (EAI). We talk about what Islamophobia, what it looks like in modern Britain and how we as educators can tackle it. It is a whole school thing, not an RE thing so please share with your colleagues. Bismah referenced so many helpful resources. Here are the relevant links;
Islamophobia: Muhammd Vs Adam
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38751307
IHRC
https://www.ihrc.org.uk/countering-islamophobia-through-the-development-of-counter-narratives/
Interesting leaflet by Tariq Modood about Islam
http://www.tariqmodood.com/uploads/1/2/3/9/12392325/muslims_in_bristol_and_britain.pdf
Muhammads last sermon
https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/articles/thelastsermon.html
Runnymede report (2017 one)
https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/61488f992b58e687f1108c7c/61bcd30e26cca7688f7a5808_Islamophobia%20Report%202018%20FINAL.pdf
EAI
https://eai.org.uk/
APPG: Islamophobia defined
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/599c3d2febbd1a90cffdd8a9/t/5bfd1ea3352f531a6170ceee/1543315109493/Islamophobia+Defined.pdf
IAM
https://www.islamophobia-awareness.org/
Role of educators in tackling islamophobia
https://www.osce.org/odihr/93497
RE Hubs - School speakers
https://www.re-hubs.uk/get-involved/school-speakers/
Find out more;
Twitter: @TheREPodcast1
Insta: @TheREPodcast
Webiste: www.therepodcast.co.uk
Welcome to the RE Podcast, the first dedicated RE podcast for students and teachers. My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this is the R.E. Podcast. The podcast for those of you who think RE is boring, which it is, and I'll prove it to you. My guest today is Bisma Afsal from the EAI, so the Educate Against Islamophobia. So welcome, Bisma. Thank you, Louisa. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_02:Can you want to just introduce yourself to the listeners? Yes, of course. So as Louisa, you've introduced me. So I'm Bisma and I work for an organization called Educate Against Islamophobia, where I am the school's coordinator. And essentially, what my role at the organisation involves or entails is essentially overseeing our relationship with schools across England, Scotland, and Wales. So we're an organisation that essentially tackles Islamophobia, and I think we'll come to that shortly. But in terms of my role specifically, I kind of oversee our relationship and our engagement with schools across England, Scotland and Wales. But equally, I'm also involved with the production of teacher and learning materials. And I think that kind of stems, you know, from my background. So prior to my current role at EAI, for a very brief while I was working as a secondary school history teacher in South Wales. But yeah, that is me in a nutshell in terms of my role at EAI. Essentially, I oversee school engagement and then also heavily involved with producing teacher and learning materials.
SPEAKER_01:And you're the second Welsh person I've had on my podcast. So it's it's nice to represent Sir Charles Goff. I'm representing your country. It's lovely. Although you have an accent, he doesn't, so I think he's lying about being from Wales.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, interesting. You know, I feel as though the accent is a bit of a hit and miss. Some people say that it's very deep, and whereas others say that it doesn't sound Welsh at all. So yeah, I feel as though it's a bit of a hit and miss.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it's subtle, but it's very beautiful. So let's talk about Educate Against Islamophobia. How did it start? Why did it start? When did it start?
SPEAKER_02:Of course, yeah. So Educate Against Islamophobia is a UK-wide educational charity, and as an organisation, we essentially do what it says on the tin. So we work with schools across England, Scotland and Wales to essentially educate against Islamophobia. And in terms of the organisation when it started, it is a relatively new organisation. So the organisation was established in 2022, and that was against the rising climate of Islamophobia, both on a national and international level, and equally within schools as well. And quite often I feel as those schools are viewed as engines for social justice and perhaps spaces where Islamophobia is not necessarily an issue. However, there have been various studies and statistics which really paint a worrying picture. So for example, a show racism the red card survey in 2015 found that over a third of all survey children in England agreed with the statement that Muslims are taking over England. And there's various other studies and statistics that we can point out to specifically within schools. And I think just generally in terms of the overarching context of Islamophobia, I'm sure we will have more of an in-depth discussion around that. But if we're to relate it back to schools specifically, I feel as though there wasn't an organization which was there supporting schools to tackle Islamophobia, particularly through the production of teaching learning materials, and also an organization which is dedicated to tackling Islamophobia. So there's lots of wonderful organizations out there which tackle racism, and obviously I've already mentioned one of them, Show Racism the Red Card, but there wasn't a particular organization representing the kind of needs of Muslim students and also Muslims generally across the board. So I think that's essentially where the organisation came into kind of being and fruition, because essentially the climate of Islamophobia, both on a national and international level, and also the intensification of Islamophobia within schools. And equally, as I mentioned, as an organization, we produced teaching and learning materials, and there wasn't an organization out there which kind of created teaching and learning materials that were tailored to tackling Islamophobia. So that is essentially why the organisation was set up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It's really interesting because I think as an RE teacher, we've certainly seen a rise of Islamophobia, but also a kind of change of it. And I want to come back to that where we really think about what we mean by Islamophobia and how it manifests. Obviously, your aims are, as your organization title suggests, is to educate against Islamophobia. But what are the sort of wider hopes, I guess? How will you know that you're being successful?
SPEAKER_02:So as an organization, we believe in the power of education, and in terms of our aims or our work, it is centred around four key aims. One of them being, for example, to educate organizations and individuals within education settings and spaces on the dangers of Islamophobia. We also then aim to provide counter-narratives to common misconceptions around Islam and Muslims within those education settings and spaces. And I think in terms of outcomes, I think seeing a real difference, you know, in terms of the change of attitudes and the behaviours of children and young people. So in terms of obviously the aims, I've already mentioned them, but in terms of the outcomes and what we really kind of hope to see through our work, which is obviously primarily or kind of focused around tackling Islamophobia through education, is not just transmitting a set of knowledge to children and young people, but also very much shaping the behaviours, values, and attitudes of children and young people.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm guessing that you've only been around for two years in terms of seeing that impact, there's not going to be visible impact right now, or have you got sort of any sort of success stories of things that you've done and you and you've actually met one of those aims, you've changed someone's way of thinking about something?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, as you mentioned, Louise, obviously it is a long-term journey, and in terms of those changing behaviours and attitudes, it doesn't happen overnight, as I'm sure everyone will appreciate. But equally, the work that we do, particularly around delivering, for example, workshops, um, and in particular for education practitioners, um, delivering Islamophobia awareness training, we've received a lot of positive feedback around just generally educating against Islamophobia and spreading awareness of Islamophobia and its manifestations, and a lot of which we share as well on social media and on our website, essentially testimonials of our work and the positive impact that it has had. But in terms of kind of really spreading awareness of Islamophobia, its manifestations, and how to really kind of combat it within a school community, I feel as those schools and practitioners they have been very vocal in terms of the difference that our kind of workshops and our CPD has brought about immediately within the school community. So I think in terms of immediate change, definitely in terms of kind of signposting schools to strategies and immediate kind of short-term strategies that they can implement and which will really help to tackle Islamophobia, but in terms of the kind of overarching values and the attitudes that we hope to change, that isn't necessarily going to happen overnight.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. And I want to talk about sort of what Islamophobia is, how it manifests, particularly in England, Scotland and Wales, and then sort of look at what we can do to tackle that in schools and what you provide. So let's think about Islamophobia. What does that term actually mean?
SPEAKER_02:So it's interesting, and I think it's a really important discussion to have because there is a lot of debate around the term itself. But as an organization, we very much advocate for the all-party parliamentary group on British Muslims definition of Islamophobia. Now, the all-party parliamentary group on British Muslims is essentially a cross-party parliamentary group which consists of various MPs, so be they, for example, Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, so on and so forth. And in 2018 they actually put forward a definition of Islamophobia in their report Islamophobia Defined. And this definition essentially it reads that Islamophobia is rooted in racism and it is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness. Now, essentially, what that definition says is that Islamophobia should be understood or it should be conceptualized as a form of racism. So whenever we think about Islamophobia, it should be understood as a form of racism. And secondly, when we kind of refer to that it is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness, essentially what that goes on to explain is that you can actually experience Islamophobia even though you may not necessarily be a Muslim. For example, we've seen that time and time again with members of the Jewish community, members of the Sikh community, members of the Hindu community, where certain religious identity markers are confused, or essentially they are perceived to be Muslim. So essentially, this is what this definition of Islamophobia conceptualizes, or it defines Islamophobia as a form of racism, and essentially you can experience Islamophobia without actually being a Muslim.
SPEAKER_01:That's really, really fascinating because actually what that means is Islamophobia is not just a problem for Muslims, it's a problem for anyone who's perceived to be a Muslim because of maybe misconceptions and stereotypes and lack of religious understanding of what a Muslim is. And so people have an understanding that a Muslim looks like a certain person, and if they see a person that looks like that, they will then actually treat them badly because of that negative idea. And so you could have a Christian who's from maybe Iraq or something like that, and actually they will be treated as if they are a Muslim. And so this is a much wider problem than just a Muslim problem. This is a societal problem.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely, yes. I like how you refer to it, Louisa, as like a much wider problem, because quite often it is viewed Islamophobia essentially as or quite often it is mistaken for just a hate crime. But as you mentioned, it is a societal-wide problem and it is a lot deeper and a lot more widespread than just, for example, verbal and physical attacks. And by conceptualising it as a form of racism, we're actually taking into account the widespread discrimination and the marginalization and the exclusion that is not only faced by members of the Muslim community, but equally those who are perceived to be Muslim.
SPEAKER_01:That's really interesting. And how does it manifest? Only because I've seen a shift, I think. I think that around the time of the Twin Towers, there was a very specific type of Islamophobia that I've not seen exist as much in my classroom. Whereas now it does, as you mentioned earlier, it seems to have slightly shifted towards sort of an immigration problem and a sort of lack of British identity or a diluting of that. So so how does the Islamophobia manifest in England, Scotland and Wales?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, that's a really interesting question. If we're to relate it back to the definition of Islamophobia that we have just covered, which essentially conceptualises it as a form of racism, it is not just on the streets or immediately within the classrooms through verbal and physical assaults or attacks, but equally it manifests then through writing behaviours and attitudes. So if we think about racism and the various levels on which it operates, so internalize and interpersonal Islamophobia could, for example, be beliefs that people may hold, and equally interpersonal would be your verbal and your physical attacks. But equally, if we're to kind of take it a step further, and if we're to think about racism, and racism essentially being a societal-wide problem, it also manifests then through stereotyping, um, discriminatory policies, laws, activities that essentially work to control, regulate, or even exclude Muslim participation, and not just, for example, within social life, but equally political and economic life. And we see as well that Islamophobia is actually rife within the workplace. And there are various again studies and statistics which really essentially paint a really worrying picture of Islamophobia in various spheres of public life. So, for example, in 2014 there was a study, if I'm not mistaken, that was conducted by Bristol University, which found that you are actually three times more likely to be offered a job interview if your name is Adam, as opposed to Mohammed. So essentially, what this social experiment did is that there were two individuals, one which went by the name of Adam and the other which went by the name Mohammed, and essentially they submitted identical CVs in terms of their background, their experience, their employment history. And I think it was approximately a hundred employers. And essentially, from the kind of responses that they received, they found then that Adam was actually three times more likely to be offered a job interview than Muhammad. So you can see that it's not just manifesting or operating within the streets through hate crime, so be that a verbal or a physical assault, it's a lot more uh widespread and it is a lot more deeper.
SPEAKER_01:It's really interesting. Have you considered why? What lies behind those kind of policies? Because I would imagine it's a subconscious bias. I would imagine, although not necessarily for everybody, they might be consciously doing that. But why? What has driven that type of racism and that type of discrimination?
SPEAKER_02:Again, that's really interesting because if we just generally think about the origins of racism, and I think that applies to all forms of racism, so be that for example, Islamophobia or any other forms of racism within society. But when we think about Islamophobia specifically, we can pinpoint the manifestation or the rise of Islamophobia to various causes. So of course there's the history of racism, which we cannot ignore. But equally, if we're to think about kind of present-day Islamophobia and how it manifests, a lot of that it can be sadly attributed to the media. And again, there are various studies, um, reports and statistics which really support that. So again, another kind of statistic which we share with, for example, teachers when we're delivering our Islamophobia awareness training and which relates to the media as a cause of Islamophobia, is how the kind of British press, in terms of its representation and its reporting around Islam and Muslims, there's essentially a ratio. So when we take a look at newspapers, there was a study which found that for every one reference to perhaps a moderate Muslim, there are 21 references to Muslims in a negative or an extremist light. Equally, you cannot detach the kind of current climate of Islamophobia from, for example, the role of public figures and politicians. And we've seen that for time and time again, but equally more recently, particularly this year, we've seen some notorious comments which have been made by serving members of parliament. So there are various causes of Islamophobia within the UK. But I think if we're to kind of boil it down to two of the main causes, it would definitely be the role of the media, and not just, for example, newspapers, but equally Hollywood, and then also the role of public figures and politicians and the remarks that they make. And we've seen as well, for example, with the remarks that politicians and public figures they make following those particular remarks, that is a surge in Islamophobia. So yeah, they would, I would say, from my opinion, would be the two main causes of Islamophobia within the UK.
SPEAKER_01:I mean it's just I just don't understand how somebody that is in a position of power and I mean the reality is that to have those beliefs is, you know, if you have freedom of belief. But actually to express those beliefs in a public forum when you're when you're uh in a position of authority, it feels as though there should be laws to mitigate against those. But because actually exactly what you're saying, if people say things like that and nobody stops them, then actually it gives permission for other people to have those views. Yeah. It's unbelievable. And actually something else that I've been looking into at the moment is AI and actually the ethics about AI. And one of the most disturbing kind of patterns is that AI is fundamentally racist. And so actually the way that it interprets the data is often negative towards certain groups, religions, ethnicities because it's drawing on information from the internet, which is in its nature subjective. And so the way that it's interpreting data, it's being told what to think, and actually sometimes there's those subconscious biases in that, in terms of you know, and actually that often results in Islamophobic kind of slurs on the information it's given back. So it's definitely something that what we're finding maybe in the 21st century is it's very subtle the way that sometimes Islamophobia manifests, but actually that's kind of dangerous because it's not as shocking because it doesn't feel violent, it doesn't feel as though there's hatred, it's just that subconscious bias. It always shocks me that we live in a world where somebody wakes up in the morning and thinks that this is okay. So let's think about the kind of solution, because I think there's a slightly stark picture of the current climate. Let's think about the solution. So let's start with how, as RE teachers and how we can support our students to tackle and counter Islamophobia.
SPEAKER_02:So I think RE teachers and RE students in general are very well placed to actually combat Islamophobia, and obviously, through the teaching of RE, so religion, values, and ethics, those obviously students and those subject specialists they will have more of an in-depth understanding of the religion. And equally we know that on an interpersonal level, Islamophobia does quite often stem from a lack of understanding on Islam and Muslims. And if we reflect upon the beliefs and the practices of Islam, so for example, that could be the concept of charity, messages and commandments within the Quran, um the life of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and the messages that he preached, we really do have the potential to combat misconceptions around Islam and Muslims, and that is actually a key component of tackling Islamophobia through education and within the school community. And I think that is something that perhaps we haven't really spoken about today is this kind of idea around narratives and misconceptions around Islam and Muslims, and we know that they're rife, not just across society, but particularly within schools. And I did briefly touch upon this with this kind of show races on the Ride Card survey, which really highlighted that over a third of survey children agreed with the statement that Muslims are actually taking over England. So there are various narratives and misconceptions around Islam and Muslims, and there's a particular research paper which I always refer back to, which was put together by Professor Ian Law and others, I think around about 2017 or 2018, and they identify 10 common narratives around Islam and Muslims across eight European nations, and again, that really highlights that it's not just kind of an issue which is kind of localized. Islamophobia is actually a global phenomenon. But again, if we just kind of go back to the kind of question and the conversation around narratives, we know that there are various kinds of narratives around Islam and Muslims. So, for example, one common one that you may have heard of is that Islam and Muslims they practice gender inequality. Quarely Islam and Muslims are inherently violent, and this is where you kind of have those stereotypes and those tropes around terrorism. And equally that Islam and Muslims they're essentially different to British culture and they're not compatible and they cannot be assimilated into kind of British society. And there are various kinds of topic areas which we can really emphasize upon within obviously the subject of RE or values and ethics. So, for example, if we're to take each of these narratives, so if we're to think about Islam and Muslims and how they may kind of practice gender inequality, what we could potentially analyze is the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,'s final sermon and how this really emphasized upon the rights of women and treating them with respect and dignity. Equally, if we're to think about this kind of narrative or this misconception around Islam and Muslims and how they're inherently kind of violent, if we just think about the immediate greeting of Muslims, which is Asalam wa alaykum, and this literally translates to may the peace and blessings of God be with you. So it always baffles me how we have this kind of dominant stereotype. Around Islam and Muslims being violent when we essentially greet each other with greetings of peace. And equally, if we're to think about the final narrative that I mentioned, which is around Islam and Muslims essentially different and they're essentially different to the national norm, we can really think about some of the commonalities between the major world religions and in particular the Abrahamic faiths. So I feel as though Ari practitioners and RE students, they are very well placed. And I think the starting point is really analysing the core beliefs and practices of Islam and kind of seeing how that relates to some of these dominant narratives which are widespread across societies.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm just gonna say that I did an episode called Women in Islam with Ramina Akhtar and Anjum Pirbakos, and they were really celebrating Islam in its attitudes towards women and countering those kind of negative stereotypes. And you know, and it's not to say that there aren't Muslim women who are treated differently to Muslim men, but actually find me any group of people or any cultural society where there's a hundred percent equality, that this is not a Muslim problem, this is a society problem. Islam does not encourage inequality between genders. But some people will use it too, in the same way as they use that within Christianity, you know, there's a sense of equality, but people have used it to promote some kind of patriarchal kind of system. And the patriarchy is a secular social system, it's not a religious one. And so actually the Muslim women I know feel very, very empowered and feel very valued within their faith.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, and I think a lot of the time as well, a lot of that kind of stems from, you know, conflating culture and religion. So as you mentioned, Louisa, obviously, name a society, you know, where we don't have those issues. A lot of the time religion and culture is conflated, but if we have to take a look at the core beliefs and the practices and the teachings of Islam and especially within the Quran, you can see that Islam has given women a concrete set of rights, way before, for example, perhaps any movements which were kind of really advocating for the rights of women within kind of Western societies and culture. So yeah, I think that's a really important point to kind of emphasize upon is how sometimes religion and culture is quite often conflated.
SPEAKER_01:But also it homogenizes Islam as that there is one Islam and everybody follows it the same way and practices it the same way when actually there's a spectrum of belief from different cultures, different countries, different societies, different types of people. And actually, you know, part of our role as RE teachers is to show that diversity and to show that spectrum so they don't have generalizations about a whole religion.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, yeah. And again, that's another narrative that we see that Muslims essentially are viewed as a homogenous group.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Quite often that Muslims or the majority of Muslims they come from the Middle East. As you've mentioned, Louisa, we know that Muslims are very diverse in terms of their background, their appearance, and also the way in which they observe their religion. And again, that is something I would definitely think is something that RE teachers in particular as well should really emphasize upon as well.
SPEAKER_01:And it's really interesting that sort of conflation that you mentioned between culture and religion. You know, and I've I've found this in the classroom. There are students who thought Islam was a country and that Muslims were people that came from Islam. And so when they conflated a culture and a religion, that was possibly the reason why that they didn't know that Islam was a religion. And it's really interesting. So something I do in the class is I actually look at statistics and their children have to guess what percentage of British society do you think are Muslims? Okay. Because that gives them the sense of how over inflated the messages are about the number of Muslims in Britain. It's much, much less than they thought it is.
SPEAKER_02:So I think there's things we can do. Definitely. I think it's really interesting as well, because if I'm not mistaken, Aria is a compulsory subject. Break me if I'm wrong, Louisa. The Nikoli, obviously, for those kind of schools. Perhaps for so for example, just thinking back to my experiences, so I went to a Catholic school, um, secondary school, and for me it was compulsory up until year 11, where I had to actually take a GCSC in um religious education. And equally, if you think about obviously the potential for schools to actually really combat, I guess, those certain narratives around Islam and Muslims, and to really kind of instill, I guess, a concrete understanding of Islam and Muslims. You think that there is huge potential, but equally what we're seeing as well is post-kind of 16, especially when we work with educators as well and other practitioners, generally there is a lot of misunderstanding around Islam and the practices of Islam. So I think more needs to be done as well, you know, particularly from an RE perspective as well, and thinking about the way in which we actually teach RE and particularly how it relates to modern-day issues as well, around some of the narratives that we mentioned, and then obviously embedding an understanding of Islamophobia within the teaching of RE as well.
SPEAKER_01:And I mean there's a couple of things I'm gonna say. One is just an admission that I used to start the teaching of Islam tackling the sort of misconception that Muslims were terrorists. And actually, what I ended up doing was reinforcing that misconception, or even sometimes suggesting it. And I realized that the children in my class, that was not their misconception of Islam anymore. That maybe 15 years ago there was still that kind of idea. But amongst young people now, that is not the misconception, and so actually I was by using that as a jumping off point, I was actually reinforcing that stereotype. And so I had to like really self-reflect and take that part out of the lesson because actually, even we we do a lesson on jihad, they still had did not have that misconception. These are like 14, 15-year-olds don't have that misconception. It's slightly changed. And so that's when I started doing that sort of statistical, you know, how many Muslims do you think there are? When do you think the first mosque was built in this country? You know, is actually seeing that Islam is not a new thing in this country, it's not a modern thing that you've been here for, you know, a long, long, long, long time. And actually looking at the history of Islam in this country was really significant. The other thing I was gonna say, Bismarck is that RE legally has to happen from EYFS, so early years, all the way up to when you leave school at 18. So every single child should have an hour of RE per week up until they are 18. And obviously a lot of schools don't meet that requirement. But also I think it's probably important to note that this is not just RE. You know, that this is what we should be looking at in citizenship and PSHE. You know, it's a whole school thing. It's not just the remit of RE to tackle Islamophobia in schools.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, I 100% agree with you there. And again, this always kind of takes me back to a report um which was published originally in 1997, so it was actually published by the Reneme Trust, which is a think tank based here in the UK, and it was actually titled Islamophobia a Challenge for Us All. And what that really highlighted then was that Islamophobia again is a society-wide problem and it doesn't just kind of operate on the streets through verbal and physical attacks, but also through, for example, discrimination within employment, through laws and policies, and how it's everyone's responsibility to actually tackle Islamophobia. And equally I feel as though within schools, quite often, this kind of issue of tackling Islamophobia, or be they any other kind of forms of racism or prejudice and discrimination, quite often is viewed as the responsibility of, for example, if it's Islamophobia in particular, it's the responsibility, for example, of the RE leads and the RE kind of educators, but it is very much the responsibility of all practitioners across all departments. And as you mentioned, it's something that the whole school should work collectively to essentially adopt a whole school approach and to combat together, irrespective of your subject specialism. So yeah, I 100% agree with you there.
SPEAKER_01:And also the flip side of that is actually positively representing, you know, Muslims across the curriculum. So actually, if you think about the role of Islam in, you know, our knowledge of mathematics or science, you know, if you look at, you know, in English, books that are written by Muslims or in art, you know, Muslim artists, and so they see the complexity of Muslim, the Muslim character, the Muslim kind of contributions to culture and understanding and science and maths and knowledge, that actually this is not just about religion, this is about humans, this is about people, this is about the fact that we have all worked together to improve society, to allow society to progress. And I think very often our curriculums are very white middle class man dominated. And so we kind of think that everything that's good that has happened in society and in human progress has happened because a white middle class man made it happen. But actually, a lot of the contributions from other groups of people have been erased because it doesn't suit the narrative. And so actually, all subject areas need to be representing reality, not a sort of erased version or of that.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely again. I I completely agree with everything that you're saying there. And there's huge potential across all departments and all subject areas, and I'm actually working on a piece which really kind of highlights the contributions of Muslims across all subject areas. So, for example, if we're to take the example of maths, so maths educators can really focus or explore the contributions of Muhammad Al-Khawarizmi and his kind of contributions to, for example, if I'm not mistaken, the introduction of numerals within the field of maths, which we use to this day, and equally various other contributions as well. So if we're to focus specifically on Al-Khawarizmi and how we contributed to the creation of algorithms and essentially how they're used today. So there's huge potential across all subject areas. And again, if we're to think about, for example, geography is another one that comes to mind, and when we take a look at the topic of explorers, who are the explorers that we are focusing on? And quite often is Marco Polo, Vasco de Gama, and quite often we're emitting other key characters who have contributed hugely to that field. So, for example, Ibn Battuta. So there is huge potential across all subject areas, um, and I think it's really important to highlight those within our subject specialisms.
SPEAKER_01:And so, actually, if you are listening and you are, you know, an RE teacher, share this episode with other subject areas as well. Because I think sometimes, you know, for us as RE teachers, we're faced with these kind of issues and ideas and thoughts quite a lot. But actually, if you are a math teacher, this is not something that is going to come and find you. And so, actually, you know, it'd be really helpful to do that. Am I right? So, just with what you were saying about numerals, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I often am. So when you had Roman numerals, which are quite complex, but it was the Islamic numbers that you use, the actual one and the two that we now use to represent. Were they what Muslims used and introduced to us?
SPEAKER_02:So essentially they are referred to as Hindu Arabic numerals, because I think they originated uh within India, if I'm not mistaken, and I think they were actually conceptualized by um the Hindus, if I'm not mistaken. However, those kinds of numerals were then introduced to the Western world through Muhammad al-Khawarizmi. Yes. And essentially that is why we have this kind of reference to the Hindu Arabic numerals. So a lot of what we uh see and what we use today, it can be attributed obviously to Muhammad al-Al-Khawarizmi and how we introduced them to the Western world. But we'll need to double check that reference, but I am very much sure that it was originated within India through the Hindu kind of numeral system, and then that translated later on or evolved into the Hindu-Arabic numeral system.
SPEAKER_01:And other things I've heard, so running water in houses, this is not something that historically we had here, and we actually didn't even wash particularly. That wasn't seen as something that was important until we had contact with Muslims who were washing daily more than once. And actually that inspired us to go, yeah, we should do that, because that's much nicer. And so there's things that we take for granted, I think, that we have here that actually has been a sharing of cultures. Thank you for that, because otherwise England would be a very smelly place. What I'm interested in now, so you've mentioned Islamophobia awareness training, and you've sort of like mentioned a few other resources that you've got, but I just want to sort of ask about how you support teachers, what support you offer, where we can go to get that support.
SPEAKER_02:Of course, yeah. So as an organisation we support schools through the production of teaching learning materials. So we have a plethora of teaching learning materials for the earliers and primary schools and secondary schools, all of which are available to download through our website free of charge. But then equally we have other materials as well. So for example, reading lists and assembly on Ramadan, again, all of which are available to download through our website. And equally we have created additional resources as well. So for example, this year I produced a unit of work or a midterm plan on the Hajj pilgrimage for Teach Primary magazine. So again, that is available for practitioners to download free of charge. So that is the teaching learning material side of things, but equally we also offer workshops and Islamophobia awareness training, um, be that virtually or in person, and I would encourage schools, all schools, irrespective of their demographics, because again, quite often, this kind of issue of tackling Islamophobia is quite often only seen as an issue for those schools that may necessarily have a Muslim demographic, but as we have kind of discussed throughout today, is that it is something that warrants the attention of every individual or practitioners and irrespective of our demographics, as Renami Trust's report really highlights. So I would really encourage schools to make use of the teaching and materials that we have, and as I mentioned, they're available to download through our website free of charge. But then also book in a workshop for children and young people, or equally an Islamophobia awareness CPD session for teaching stuff.
SPEAKER_01:So what I'll do is I put a link to the website which is eai.org.uk. I'll try and find links to the Islamophobia Defined, which is the sort of cross-parliamentary paper that was produced. I'll try and find links to the Bristol University research about who's more likely to get a job, Adam or Mohammed, the Ian Law Ten Misconceptions on Muslims paper, and the Runami Trust, sort of Islamophobia a challenge for us all. So I'll put those links in the show notes so people can kind of easily find those things because I think it'd be really fascinating.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And I think another resource is Islamophobia Awareness Month campaign. They've got a plethora of resources as well, um, not just for educators, but just generally anyone who's interested in learning more about Islamophobia. So Islamophobia Awareness Month is a month-long campaign which runs every November, so from the first of November until the very end of November, which essentially aims to A raise an awareness of Islamophobia, but then also to raise an awareness of the positive contributions of Muslims, not just here within the UK, but across kind of society and across kind of civilizations and throughout history. So again, that is another kind of campaign that I would encourage all schools and all kinds of practitioners to really get on board with every year and to have that as a kind of key event within the school calendar. And again, you can access all of the information, all of the resources that Islamophobia Awareness Month has on their website as well. So that will be another really useful resource for schools and practitioners.
SPEAKER_01:What's the relationship between EAI and Islamophobia Awareness Month? Are they connected in any way?
SPEAKER_02:So Islamophobia Awareness Month is essentially a campaign, if I'm not mistaken, I think it first started roughly 10 years ago, and it was essentially a campaign which was created by a range of different Muslim organisations, and over time it has gained a lot of popularity and a lot of traction, and we've seen, for example, universities, schools, organisations not just within the UK but across the globe, who really engage in with the campaign. So, in terms of the connection with EAI, it is distinct, it is separate, but as an organization, we very much mark the month and we encourage equally all schools and all educators, and just generally workplaces as well, to really get involved with the campaign to a really kind of raise an awareness of Islamophobia across society, and then secondly, to really counter those narratives and those misconceptions around Islam and Muslims by really highlighting the positive contributions of not just British Muslims but Muslims from across society and uh throughout history to really combat those narratives and those misconceptions that we discuss today.
SPEAKER_01:Hmm. And actually what's really interesting is that within November you've got Interfaith Awareness Week, which is I think the second week in November, which is in the same month as Islamophobia Awareness Month, that actually those two things are so beautifully connected that you know, this is not just about racism towards perceived Muslims. This is about how people of faith and non-faith relate to each other, you know, in everyday life. Can I ask so within Islam, we've talked about this idea of diversity in terms of resources? Is there resources that are maybe specific to different types of Muslims? So Sunnishia, Ahmadiyya, Sufi, or is it much more sort of Sunni focused because that's the predominant group?
SPEAKER_02:I think that's interesting. So as an organization, we generally just cover, so for example, in our teachings of Islam and the core kind of beliefs and practices of Islam, we very much kind of focus on the core beliefs and practices which are observed across all kinds of sects within Islam. But equally, as you've mentioned, there are obviously variances and there are obviously sects within Islam. In terms of resources, as I mentioned, that isn't something that we cover immediately ourselves. There are other organizations again which I can signpost you to, which can give the audience more of a deeper understanding, obviously, Islam itself, but then also how the other sects came into being. So again, that's something that we can definitely signpost the audience to, but in terms of us as an organization, when we kind of cover the core beliefs and practices of Islam, it's generally the beliefs and practices which are observed by all Muslims.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that's really helpful. Thank you. Is there anything else that you want to say that you haven't had the opportunity to, or any kind of final thoughts you want to leave the listeners with?
SPEAKER_02:I would say that obviously a lot of what we've covered today is quite heavy and it does paint a worrying picture. However, obviously as an organization as well, we very much believe in the power of education, and education it does serve as a powerful tool to combat all forms of prejudice and racism. And it always takes me back to this quote, which if I kind of recall correctly, goes something along the lines of teachers in schools are the first line of defense against intolerance and discrimination, and they have a central role in shaping the behaviours and attitudes of their pupils. So even though, as I've said, the kind of trends and the kind of picture that we have very much discussed today is very much worrying. But equally, if we think about obviously the power of schools and educators, we are there to essentially combat these racist attitudes and essentially to kind of prevent them from happening in the first place. But when it does arise, we are very much well placed to actually combat these kinds of attitudes and these prejudices. So I think as educators we should always remain hopeful, and that we do have the kind of power to really combat a lot of what we have discussed today. So I think there's always hope, particularly within schools and as educators. And yeah, I think it warrants the attention of all educators, and as I mentioned, schools and educators they do have obviously a powerful position and a role to play. In combating prejudice and racism in all its shapes and forms.
SPEAKER_01:And what do you think then for us then would be the most powerful thing that we could do in that really privileged position that we have to kind of shape the thinking of the children that we teach? What do you think would be the most powerful thing that we could do in our classrooms?
SPEAKER_02:I think it's difficult to perhaps point to one particular strategy or one particular thing, but I think first of all acknowledging that there is a problem because what we see, even in present day, that there is still a lot of denial until we recognise that there is an issue and that Islamophobia exists, and having a concrete understanding of how it operates across society, we won't be able to combat it effectively. So I think that would be the first step is acknowledging that there's a problem, um, have an understanding of Islamophobia and essentially Islamophobia as a form of racism, um, and only then are we able to actually combat it effectively. But equally, then there are other kinds of strategies that we've discussed as well, be that through the teaching and learning materials that we would have discussed today, um, and then also the Islamophobia awareness CPD that we offer, but equally, I think being mindful of misconceptions which are rife and being in the kind of position or having that kind of knowledge and understanding to really counter those narratives as and when they arise.
SPEAKER_01:And actually, it's really interesting. I've done this episode, I've done an interfaith week episode, and I've done a freedom of religion or belief episode back to back. And so actually seeing those three episodes together, there's that sort of similar messaging about you know, it's about creating a beautiful society for us to live in and preparing our students for life in modern Britain. Absolutely. And so they're all kind of connected together. And one thing I will just say is that a shout out to the RE Hubs website, because one thing I think would be really powerful, and this is kind of about contact theory, that a lot of our students won't ever have met a Muslim. And so actually it's this kind of abstract concept idea that doesn't relate to their life or real life or real people. And so if you haven't been onto the RE Hub's website to have a look at the visitor section, you can define it by local area. Find your local mosque, find a Muslim speaker in your area, you know, make friends with your local imam and actually get your children to have an experience with a Muslim who's living that out. Because I think that breaks down so many misconceptions and discriminatory ideas that they're kind of being fed, that they're kind of absorbing without really realizing. And so it just gives that counter-narrative to some of the more negative ones, you know, as you're saying, that are coming from our leadership and that are coming from the media. So our re hubs, go onto the visitors' website, I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. Bizmar, if you could wake up tomorrow and one thing was different, what would you want it to be?
SPEAKER_02:Oh gosh, Louisa, that is again, there's so much obviously that you could kind of say in relation to this. But obviously, if we're to relate it back to our work and what we do in terms of combating obviously discrimination, I would say if I was to wake up, it would be to see a just world that is free from hatred, discrimination, conflict and inequality. And that is a lot of suffering and oppression and discrimination that is taking a place not just here obviously within the UK but across the globe. So I would love to see a world where every individual, irrespective of their background or their religion, can live in harmony alongside everyone irrespective of their faith or any other kind of protective characteristic. And equally a society where every individual is able to enjoy their rights and their entitlements without any interference or restrictions.
SPEAKER_01:It would be beautiful, wouldn't it? It would be so beautiful. And it starts with us, isn't it? It starts with us loving and accepting ourselves individually, because I think it's really difficult to love from a place of hate if you don't love yourself. It's very, very difficult to love others. So I think we have to love and accept ourselves in all our mistakes and silliness and you know insecurities, so that we can then love and accept other people even when we disagree with each other, you know, and I think that's the thing that I think is missing from society is that feeling comfortable with disagreeing. I think there seems to be a real discomfort in that space where you're talking to someone who thinks something different from yourself. And I don't know, it seems to be a belief that two different things can't coexist together. That there has to be one idea or one thought process that's right and everything else is wrong. Which is it makes no logical sense. You know, we all have completely different tastes in clothes and in food and in music and those things can coexist. Absolutely. And I think that's something that would be lovely so that people can feel comfortable with differences and see it as something that's beautiful rather than a conflict. Bismar, I've loved this chat, thank you so much. I think it's so lovely as an RE teacher to find out about something that is helping us do our job better, is supporting us do our job better, but also reminds us of the importance of RE and the role that it plays. And I think sometimes we get so bogged down with lesson planning and marking and meetings and stuff like that, that it's really lovely to take this time to look at that bigger picture and to look at the overall reason why we're doing this job day to day. So thank you for giving us the space to do that.
SPEAKER_02:No, thank you for having me and also for the wonderful work that you're doing as well.
SPEAKER_01:No, I mean it is genuinely our pleasure to do this. So thank you so much. My name is Louisa Jane Smith and this has been the Auri Podcast. The podcast for those of you who think Ari is boring, but it's not. It helps everyone to live safely and free to practice their religion and help minimize hate. But thank you so much for listening to us or the life of you.