The RE Podcast
The RE Podcast
S15 E1: The One With The BBC Pilgrimage Cast 2025 EASTER SPECIAL
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*Please tweet along with us LIVE this Sunday as we watch the first episode of the new BBC Pilgrimage series BB2 Easter Sunday 9pm*
Welcome to this very special Easter Episode of The RE Podcast where I am on location in London at the press screening of the new BBC Pilgrimage series set to air on Easter Sunday 2025 (20th April).
I chat to 6 of the 7 pilgrims who made the 300km pilgrimage across the Alps, all agreeing that the biggest journey was in their self awareness and friendships with each other. We talk about the importance of curiosity and asking questions and looking at the similarities between us. I even try and recruit a couple to teaching RE.
My thanks to agnostic Jay McGuiness, singer from boy band, The Wanted; actor and comedy legend Helen Lederer who is from a mixed heritage background, with a culturally Jewish father and a Protestant mother; practising Catholic, Harry Clark - The Traitors (series two) winner; standup comedian Daliso Chaponda, who grew up in a Christian family but is exploring the Baha’i faith; retired Paralympian and practising Christian Stef Reid and journalist Nelufar Hedayat, who refers to herself as a modern Muslim. Presenter Jeff Brazier, who went to Catholic schools but now is spiritual and meditates as part of his everyday life, was not able to attend the press screening so does not feature in this episode.
My thanks also so Katie Freeman and Angela Hill for asking some great questions to give me a lot of this material.
My thanks also to CCTV and the BBC for producing this programme.
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I was lucky enough to be invited and was able to question the celebrities as a panelist and then smaller groups of two and then have a one-to-one chat with a comedian and a literature ponder. Now, in case any of you haven't watched Pilgrimage, it is a yearly reality TV show with a different year. The BBC sends seven celebrities on a pilgrimage and observe their physical and spiritual journey. As you'll see from the interviews, pilgrimage is unlike any other reality TV show. Because there's no competition, no overall winner. The result is an authentic look at the spiritual lives of some incredible pilgrims. We have an active comedy legend, Helen Ledger, who is from the heritage background, with a culturally Jewish father, and a Protestant mother. We're not all of the traitor series and a comedian literature ponder who grew up in a Christian family but is comedy exploring the Bahia. Presented Jeff Razier who went to a Catholic school, but now is spiritual and meditators as part of his everyday life. Unfortunately, he could not be with us today. Retired Paralympian and practicing Christian, Jeffrey, and journalists, who refers to herself as a modern Muslim. In this episode, I record interviews with each pilgrim except Jeff Razor, who obviously wasn't there. And what's me throughout this time with the pilgrim is with the message of respectful curiosity and how important it is to ask questions about others in a world that too often should understand conversation. My apologies that we had to record in a busy room, but I hope his warmth and message stand out. He was so generous with his honesty and time and gave me permission to ask about anything. What struck me was his openness to others and respect for all. So my name is Louisa James Smith, and this is the RE podcast. The podcast for those of you who think R.E. is boring, which it is, and I'm gonna prove it to you. Because I'm here with a very boring man. Could you want to just I'm offended? I am offended to the core.
SPEAKER_00:I am doing such a ponder. I am a comedian, I am tantalising, I am interesting, and you know, I would make a great R.E. teacher. I think on the other way. We need one.
SPEAKER_05:We we have a recruitment crisis.
SPEAKER_00:I'm very funny.
SPEAKER_05:So if comedy doesn't I don't know how to usually people go from teaching to comedy. It's so moving and it's so wonderful. But just take us back a little bit and just take us back to your childhood.
SPEAKER_00:So when I was born, my parents were refugees. They fled Malawi because we had a crazy person in power, and my dad criticized him and would have ended up in prison or worse. So we fled to Zambia, and then uh we were bouncing around from country to country because sadly, nobody wants refugees, so you get temporary permission to be in places. But then, quite miraculously, my dad got a scholarship which was provided partly because he was a refugee, and he went from being a refugee to working for UNHCR, which is the High Commission for Refugees, and they were very right because they were like the best people to help refugees is people who used to be refugees. So I grew up with that around. So first we were refugees, and then my dad was helping refugees. I've made visits to refugee camps when I was young, and the idea of asylum seekers and people who are desperate was just always around. And I guess it's one of the things which I'm most passionate about and most angry about when people aren't welcoming, because I just feel like we're all humans, and if your house is on fire, you run to your neighbor. And I just feel like that was the experience which I went through. Now as a kid, I didn't fully understand it until later. I just knew I was oh, I grew up in lots of different countries and I made friends and then I left them. But then when I look back, I'm like, oh, that's because I never belonged anywhere. Like my radio show is called Citizen of Nowhere because I was nothing. Like, you know, when people watch sports and they cheer for their team, I never really had my team because I never belonged anywhere, which I thought was bad. But as I've got older, I'm like, oh no, I have no preconceptions, I get to know everyone, and you know, for my faith, I felt like I have friends of many different faiths, and I think part of the reason why I don't judge people is because for two years I was in Somalia, which is mostly Muslim, then I was a year in Kenya, which is mostly Christian, then we were in Thailand, which is mostly Buddhist, and you're just exposed to all these people, and you just see people. You know what I mean? And you just see how interesting they are, and it's very hard to judge and feel you're better than someone when you get to know them, which is why I always feel like everybody should travel and get to know as many different kinds of people as they can, because it's very hard to stay ignorant when you've got the person in front of you.
SPEAKER_05:It's called contact theory. So it's a theory, a sociological theory that in order to break down hate and discrimination, you just need to have contact with people, you know.
SPEAKER_00:We had an extreme version of that. So I went to high school in Swaziland, which was surrounded by South Africa, and there was a kid who came to the school who wasn't full racist, right? In that he could talk to me, right? And he was a white kid, yeah, but from how he's brought up, he could not understand interracial relationships. Yeah, he'd be like, No, you be with your own, I'll be with my own. And he was a lovely person, but he had been ingrained. After three years at the school, he had a crush on someone, right? Black. And I was like, contact is really open to my.
SPEAKER_05:And do you know what? I have two sons, and when my youngest son was seven, he said to me, Mum, what's a country?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:And I said, It's an invisible line painted on a planet for political control. Yeah. It's interesting because I come from a background where my grandparents, like French, Canadian and German, and Spanish and Irish. I don't feel like a citizen of anywhere. I feel like a citizen of everywhere. Like I'm part of the human race, I belong to this planet. And there was this beautiful story of some astronauts from different countries going up to the International Space Station. And as they took off, they were pointing out their countries, and as they got further away from Earth, they were like, Oh, look, that's our continent. Oh, that's right. And as they got further on, that's our planet. That's perfectly. And the further away they got from Earth, the closer they felt to each other. It's beautiful. The other thing is that you've just mentioned your faith there. What impact does your Christian heritage faith sort of have?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I went to what I realize now is probably the less welcoming forms of Christianity, right? In that I wanted to be a preacher. That was one of the first things I wanted to be. Because the preachers in Africa are very dramatic. It's weird, it's like being a comedian. They're on stage, everyone loves what they're saying, but it's very much our way is the only way. We are right, you're wrong. And I used to have a lot of problems because again, I'd be in Thailand and make friends with a little Buddhist boy, and my religion is telling me they would go to hell. Right? And so I had a lot of arguments with the pastors, particularly because this was the way I wanted to go, and it took a long time for me. Well, now I realize that they're more nuanced versions of Christianity, but at the time I was only exposed to the everyone else is going to hell, the only thing you can do for your friends is convert them. And I would try convert them, which is a very aggressive action, you know, for a 14-year-old boy to another 14-year-old boy. And then I discovered the Baha'i faith. And it wasn't that I became Baha'i. I almost was like, I've always been Baha'i because this faith incorporates some of the struggles which I've had with my own faith. I never stopped believing in God, but I kind of just shifted how I looked at people on different paths.
SPEAKER_05:Now I know that you'll say that you're not the leading expert on Baha'i and you're struggling being like the face of Baha'i, but for anyone who's listening that doesn't really know anything about it, could you just very simply explain that?
SPEAKER_00:Part of the reason I say I'm not the face is I didn't grow up with it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So the carols I know are Christian carols.
SPEAKER_10:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:The scripture I know backwards and forwards is Christian. And then I became Baha'i and I've learned it, but I don't speak Iranian, I don't know all the prayers. Often I'll be at a Baha'i deepening and I'll be like, oh, I don't know this song.
unknown:You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Like it's kind of but again, I've not necessarily done all the education, but the Baha'i faith believes that the greatest truth is the search for truth, and that we're all part of a constant narrative where there have been many manifestations of God or great prophets, right? So Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bhagavad Gita all are part of the same story, and the manifestations are sent, and they're specific to the time and place, but the core bits of the message, the important bits are the same. And so Baha'is read everything. You'll read the Bible, you'll read some of the Quran, you'll read some of the texts of Baha'u'llah, and you're trying to sort of get to the bottom of the most important messages before they get perverted by humans and our politics and our so I always feel the faith is most pure when it comes out. And then over time we bend it to ourselves. And and I found it very liberating because I'm someone who likes to think and argue. And in the version of Christianity that I was part of, the questions were considered an attack. When you asked the preacher like been at Sunday school, when you said, Oh, but this bit doesn't make sense, they'll be like, don't ask. That's how it is. And they weren't open to it. While the Baha'i faith encourages the questions, encourages the confusion. And I found for me that's the path that gives me the most solace.
SPEAKER_05:And also I think for some people they like black and white, they like simplicity. And I think something like Baha'i that's so inclusive, where there's variation. I think some people would find that I feel a bit insecure because I don't know if I'm doing the right thing.
SPEAKER_00:And there are also things like they are fundamental questions where you can't have a middle of the road answer, right? Like, is this wrong? Right? And that I think is one of the biggest things which causes the argument. Like what does son of God mean? Or is it okay to be gay? Or these are things where you can't kind of well say, well, you're and you've got to like attack them and argue. But I actually feel like if in the argument you've got doubt, you both listen to each other. You're like, if I'm 70% sure I'm right, I'll listen to you. But if I'm a hundred percent sure I'm right and you are wrong, there's no listening. And and again, I think it's also just compassion that you are talking to another human being, not arguing with a wall of text. Because there are behaviors and things which I consider immoral and wrong, and then when I have friends who indulge in them, like Baha'i Faith is not a fan of drug taking, right? I'm in entertainment, okay? I know comedians who take all sorts of chemicals, and I'll talk to them about why I think it's a bad choice, and kind of like rather than saying this bit of text says that you shouldn't do it, I say, but do you feel like you treat people compassionately when you're high? Do you feel like it's a real representation? And just kind of try to get through to them, is I think the way to do it.
SPEAKER_05:There's a thing, the story with Jesus where his disciples pick some corn on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees are like, oh, how dare they do this? And Jesus says, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And I think some of these laws where you shouldn't do this, there's a reason why, but we've lost the reason.
SPEAKER_00:We've lost the reason. And we've just taken the law as it is. One of the most beautiful things I've saw is that I was invited to a Passover Seder. And there was a thing in it which I think should be in every religious ritual. The youngest person in the room asked the oldest person why do we do this? Yes. And I was like, everything should have that because we forget why.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. And it's such a human question to ask why. Yeah, and I think it's so good. You've been on this pilgrimage journey as part of the BBC2 series. What's kind of your takeaway from that experience?
SPEAKER_00:My takeaway is it's okay to talk about faith, and even if people don't like that you're talking about faith, it's okay, particularly because I'm in comedy. If I bring up that I'm religious backstage, comedians start doing Richard Dawkins 101 stand-up comedy. It's not a very welcoming place for faith. I don't know why. It's just a very cynical I don't even know why necessarily. And I just stop bringing up my faith because I'd be like, okay, it's not welcome here, I just won't bring it up. And even on stage, I'll struggle to bring it up because I'm like, oh, this is not what British people want to hear. I'll talk about my family, I'll talk about love. But now I'm like, this is something that's passionate to me. And I will talk about it even if they have a little bit of difficulty listening, because my whole experience is different from them. I I found it's really rewarding. So I'm just talking more actively about my faith. It was always there, but it was hidden inside. I might talk about the morals without saying it comes from my faith. Like, you know, we mentioned being a refugee. I did a whole episode of my radio show when they were trying to stop the small boats and send people to Rwanda. All of that was my religious ideals, but I never said God once. Now I say God. Yeah, yeah. So I think the biggest thing is like I've almost come out and said, no, this is important to me, and it's an important part of me, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Tell us about your radio show.
SPEAKER_00:People want to kind of Yeah, so my radio show is called Citizen of Nowhere. Yeah. And it's about being an outsider, trying to belong. But every episode looks at some difficult thing between being an African and being in the UK. Yeah. So it's slavery, colonialism, charities, or anything like that. And it just kind of like delves it in while being funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so great because I feel like if it's funny, it's approachable. Yeah. No one wants to hear you lecture to them, but if you make them laugh, they'll listen.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, their brains open. 100%, yeah. If we're talking to policy makers and decision makers, and the narrative about refugees is so negative. Oh gosh. What advice would you have for them in terms of making policies?
SPEAKER_00:I feel like, particularly in the last 20 years, the fringe right-wing people have become the center of the discussion. And I noticed last election it was just each side talking about who would be harder on migrants. And I'm like, there needs to be a voice saying these people enrich our community. There needs to be a voice showing the way that the tapestry of the UK. The reason there's a chippy and a curry house is people who come from different places, and a lot of the best things about the country is how accepting it is of different countries. And I just think that voice needs to be louder. And I don't know what happened that it went because I've only been here 14 years. And when I first moved, it wasn't the rhetoric of the mainstream. The mainstream, it was like the fringe BNP types. And now I'm like, no, it's mainstreamed. And I know it's because of hard economic times and stuff like that. But I always just think you've got to just think these are people.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And why are these people desperate? And then also it's remembering you could be desperate. There could be a hurricane that comes in the UK, and then we have to flee places. And it's just like I always feel sad we're losing the lessons which we learnt through things like the Second World War. That's when we're like, we need a refugee convention. And I just feel like remembering why we've got these things is very important.
SPEAKER_05:And I feel the same way that that psychology of dehumanizing people, therefore, if we don't see their humanness, what we're doing isn't wrong. That we've taken the humanness away from refugees, and we've used things like we need to protect our borders, all of that rhetoric that creates that these are a threat and we've taken them human.
SPEAKER_00:They don't share our values. I never even know what that means because I'm like they're people who want to eat, who want to care for their loved ones, and want to be happy. That's everybody. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And it feels like every generation needs a scapegoat that isn't the people in power. Yes. So let's take the weakest people because they've got no voice, and let's blame them for the problems.
SPEAKER_00:And it's convincing them it's these poor, desperate people are to blame, not wealthy people who own everything. Yeah. Oh, it's so funny. I know. It's so frustrating.
SPEAKER_05:It's like it's narcissism. It's like, you know, let's just like, you know, victim blaming and all that.
SPEAKER_00:Also, some of it became cartoonish. You probably can't go specifically, but like there was this case with the paintings of cartoons in one of the refugee centres, and they painted over them because they said it made it too welcoming. And I was like, this is cartoonish villainy. You don't want your nation to be like, oh, we don't even want to bring in desperate children.
SPEAKER_05:Who would want that to be their nation? It's crazy. And I think it's really interesting, isn't it? Because what you're saying about Baha'i is that there is a commonality of the truth and the values that each religion and each prophet has bought.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:And the tenant that's the sort of fundamental tenant is love, compassion, kindness towards other people. Yes. You know, and if you're a Christian and you're looking at the parable of the sheep and the goats, that whatever you did for the least of one of these you did for me is very much. If you're looking at, you know, sikin, you've got the idea of selfless service. The core part of being human is compassion for others. And that's, I think, what Baha'i recognises is the commonality of the people.
SPEAKER_00:And then also, I always look at it this way: like the people who are the most important in each faith would not want you to be unwelcoming. Like you might be unwelcome, you're like, what Jesus, you know what I mean? Like, is that thing? And I remember watching this amazing talk after 9-11, and it was Desmond Tutu, it was the Dalai Lama, it was all these people, and they were the same. They were saying the same things, and you're like, Yes, they've got differences in perspective, but the core of it, their response was the same. And then also another thing, it was a very funny conversation.
SPEAKER_05:Oh my god, they're just so funny.
SPEAKER_00:And again, like I very much feel like laughter is what I'm here for. Yeah. And there's a thing in the Baha'i Faith that creativity is a form of prayer, right? And I definitely see that because I'm like, you are giving people something to link them to their memories, and it's a kind of prayer. And so I very much link up to that.
SPEAKER_05:That's so beautiful. And also, some people don't remember that Jesus was a refugee. He had to escape his hometown and go to Egypt. Go to Egypt, exactly. So at the very beginning of Christianity, very heart, the birth of it, there was a small boy who was warned.
SPEAKER_00:There's like a census being done, there's like oppression right baked into it. And it's just one of those things where I'm like, pay attention to history, pay attention to the scriptures, because it's the same things happening again and again. And it's like I hate it when people ignore the lessons we've already learned.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think us humans, I don't know about you, I have to learn the same lessons again and again.
SPEAKER_00:I also I am an optimist. Like I was really heartened this week. I mean, not to be part of it, but like America's been doing some very bizarre things as Trump is in power. But then this week, there was like this hands-off march where all these people demonstrated and were saying, no, we don't want you to chase away all the migrants. Really draconian. And in the UK, there were anti-immigration demonstrations last year. And then two days later, there was the you're not in my name, refugees welcome. So I always feel like both forces present.
SPEAKER_05:And also I'm a massive believer in that most people I've ever met are good people.
SPEAKER_10:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:You know, and I think we get a warped sense of how wonderful the world is. Yes. Like I've met thousands of people, I would say five of them have not been very nice people. Like most people are good.
SPEAKER_00:But it does And even the people who aren't, yeah, if you get to know them, you usually can see the hurt that makes them lash out or the protective instinct which has gone awry. Right? I barely have met people where I'm like that person's just evil. Like that person had a horrible thing and happened to them, and now they're lashing out at everyone.
SPEAKER_05:The only thing is it's when people follow them and go, Yeah, he's Oh, that's a problem. I'm like, why are you listening to what you say? Like, you know, it's crazy. And so, kind of the future for you, like, do you see your future now in comedy?
SPEAKER_00:So, comedy and writing. So, I write books, and I just said, but it's all like for me, again, I very much feel like they're important things that need to be said, and I think I am a soft seller. And I think that's what I'm good at. Like making it a bit palatable and talk about difficult things in a way that makes people smile.
SPEAKER_05:So, what's your message to the world then?
SPEAKER_00:Like, my message is generally like you don't know everything, have a bit of doubt and compassion in how you deal with everyone. Yeah. Because even like your partner, even like everything, I just think like I'm a very big fan of doubt. And I think comedy is very good at finding. Comedy points out contradictions and it points out paradoxes, and so it's very good at it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it does, it like shines the light onto the world in so much in a very profound way, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00:So it's great. And also it's so universal, that's what I love, is that a funny story is funny here, yeah, and in Saudi Arabia, and in Malaysia, and in Australia, everywhere.
SPEAKER_05:I remember, I think I was in Peru, yeah, and I was sitting in this little hostel watching Tom and Jerry because obviously there's no sounds, and there's no language barriers, and just seeing people from all over the world just laughing at this kind of humour, and it's it was such a profound moment, isn't it? And I think humour connects people, it takes away your guard. Yes. I think it's a very beautiful way to get a message. I've loved meeting you today. You're such a warm person, and I think we need more of you in the world. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. My name is Louisa Jane Smith. This has been the R.E. Podcast, the podcast for those of you who think R.E. is boring, but it's not as profound and comical. But thank you so much for letting us bore the life out of you. Next up, you're gonna hear the panel interview with the six pilgrims present after watching the first episode together for the first time. We start with traitors winner Harry Clark. He's responding to a question about what they will take away from the pilgrimage experience. You then hear from journalist Nella Four Hadayat, the comedian Deliso Chaponda, then Paralympian Steph Reed, then back to Harry, and then from the actor and comedian Helen Lederer. I then ask them about their experience of Ari when they were at school.
SPEAKER_02:You can never be one of the people that say, Yeah, I'm right, you're wrong. And said, look at it like we're all right in our own way. So I think that was the biggest eye-opener, you know, everyone believes in their religion for a different reason. And like I've said all along, and you'll see it on screen, I only believe that a religion is an opinion anyway. You know, other than Buddhism, probably every other religion leads back to a god. So we're all just believing in a story that's told differently. So at the end of the day, we're all right. No one knows what this overpower is above us. And going in there, that open-mindedness, I think, was a lesson we all learnt to then take that on further into life and move into the things we do in the future with an open mind.
SPEAKER_07:Think about this, right? Where else in the world, let's just take this room full of people, where else in the world can you go to hang out with people who will talk to you non-judgmentally about your most insecure beliefs about now and the hereafter? Right? It doesn't exist in society in that way. And to Steph's point, that community, that golden thread that you see that connects us and all the way on to the train, wherever Jeff is, that's a beautiful practice that I wish I could give to all of you guys, and you guys could have your own problem, which is go on all that.
SPEAKER_00:For me, I think that my faith was a very private thing, especially because I moved to the UK and like where I'm from in Malawi, people talk about their faith, people are very open faith, but coming to the UK, which I find is very secular, and particularly comedy, which is extremely secular, and there's a resistance if you bring up faith. The biggest difference in Malawi, if I'm doing a show, the four comedians will pray before the show. If I tried to start that in a show in Birmingham, they would look at me like I'm and so I've just found like I've hidden and not spoken about my faith a lot, but since pilgrimage, I've been talking about it, even hiding it in jokes and talking about it, even where I feel there's resistance, because I think it's important for me to put it in the scaffolding.
SPEAKER_06:I think more than anything, yeah, it just makes the conversation okay. I was at an event once, my agent was with me, and I was it was a Christian event, and I was very aware I was in the car. And the event that I was doing their host, she spent the entire time telling this girl about Christianity, and I'm sitting there thinking, oh gosh, like this is you know, this poor girl, like, you know, just leave her alone, she's trying to do her job, and after the whole day was done, and I got back in the car, I was about to apologize to her, like, I'm so sorry, like I know this isn't. And she said, No, like actually, that was the first time anybody had ever asked me about my faith and listened to what I had to say. And that was a reminder to me, like, people want to talk about these things. We have to talk about them. And I think maybe just in the culture that we are, I don't know, maybe it's not cool, or maybe people are afraid that if they say something that's wrong, they're gonna get cancelled. Like it's really scary. So just to open up the space that actually people are talking about these things and actually they do matter. They're really important.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I was gonna back Seth's point as well, especially when she said they don't think it's not cool, that's a generation thing, you know, like you see on TikTok now, Instagram, especially in the youth. People think, oh, you can't talk about religion because there's something wrong with it, or you seem to if you believe in this religion and you hate all others, that's not what it is. And to see us so authentic there, and also see us, especially me anyway, it's like it doesn't have to be that deep. Everyone deeps it so much, and sometimes it's not that deep. If you believe, you believe. If you don't want to believe, you don't have to. And it's not the end of the world. So I just want people that watch it and the audience to see that authenticity in us and to just not deep it as much. And if you want to talk about faith, talk about it. If you don't, then don't. Simple as that.
SPEAKER_08:But it's very rare with the question, I think it is very rare to see people who might be known in other guises to actually sit round, and that was an interesting at the dinner table, you know, these little sound bites. And are they just sound bites, or are we really feeling it? Are we playing for the camera? What's real? And it's interesting what you say about comedians. I mean, it's unusual to have a right-wing comedian as well, so it's quite unusual to have there's certain taboos about what is kind of absorbed into connecting with someone, and religion can be one of those barriers. So uh I think that's probably the appeal of the programme that people are prepared to at least go there a bit. And it's noticed if it's genuine, and it's noticed if it isn't, as in life.
SPEAKER_05:My name's Louisa, I host the RE podcast, and I'm here with a lot of RE teachers, and we represent the RE community. We love pilgrimage to show how to have respectful conversations amongst differences is why we absolutely love it. So thank you so much for being part of it. My question to you, and you have to be honest what was RE like when you were at school?
SPEAKER_02:I got an A star. Yay!
SPEAKER_07:So I went to a school down the road from here. So you're in the borough of Camden, where I grew up. There's a school down the road called Havistock Hill. Yes, I'm getting nuts. It's a very, very diverse, very poor school. But our claim to fame is that uh we had the Miliband brothers go to our school, so that's pretty cool. I say all of this to say I met more people of different faiths by the age of 12 than most people ever do, just because of where I went to school and the Aoi system of Buddhist was very common, lots of different types of Hindus, a Jain. I mean, just name it. I loved Ari, and the reason that pilgrimages are so successful, I think, is because it takes us back to that part of our lives where curiosity wasn't a crime. Where asking questions that were silly or felt frivolous wasn't bad. And that's why I love Harry. Because Harry will ask the question that comes straight to his mind in that moment. You know, can I hug a monk?
SPEAKER_08:Why not? Obviously not.
SPEAKER_07:And that was what was brilliant. That's what's brilliant about the show, and that's what R.E. taught me at school. Brilliant, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:I would actually like to answer that question. As a young lad, I loved R. E. Primary school, lots of fun. Secondary school, we started delving into probably more uh touchy topics, and some memories stick really hard in my mind. I was taught by nuns in secondary school for RE, and I remember one time my sister made it quite clear that she wished that women could be priests in the same way in the Catholic Church. I thought it was interesting that she was sort of sounding out those frustrations to a young class. I remember making posters against euthanasia, and I remember really, really strongly believing that no one should be allowed a dignified death. And now I completely think the opposite. I think that we should grant a lot more mercy to those sorts of people that if they choose to do that, it's their life. I also remember her telling us uh about gay people going to hell. I remember thinking how awful it must be for uh everyone that sat in that room who was gay, bisexual, whatever, as a child just to be told Yeah, you're not in this community, or we'll forgive you or pray for you, or all the rest of it. So among like lots of really lovely lessons of like love and worship and drawing pictures and liking my teachers, I remember like there was quite a few jolting ones that I look back on and go, ah, they're still rooted a lot among all the lovely people that you meet, those lessons are still in there, and I think that's pretty damaging.
SPEAKER_05:So a member of the audience then asked what it was like for those who were not Christian to deepen their own faith or none while on a Christian pilgrimage.
SPEAKER_00:Well, for me, I I find it's all the same story, it's all the same path. So for me, it's very complimentary, and it was more like seeing the history. We were seeing art which is from 500 years ago, which is created with passion. And I think it was more seeing that kind of history which hit me, and also just getting to know everyone. So for me, there was no disconnect. The only disconnect was some of the questions, like and some of the defenses which I had to when I was explaining the Baha'i faith, and then Christians were asking me questions which I had struggled with, and I'm not a wise prophet, and I had to answer them, that was difficult. And one of the hardest things was literally trying to explain when I vaguely know, when some of the Christians said to me, No, you can't say the prophets are the same. You can't say Jesus is the Son of God, it's the most important tenet, and you are saying we must disregard that. And I'm saying I'm not saying that. I and I didn't feel like I was the right person to answer, but at the same time trying to was really valuable because it made me have to go read up what the actual wiser people said.
SPEAKER_08:Well, what was interesting to be quite privileged to be with such an expert Christian as you, you know, encyclopedic knowledge, I mean it's incredible. Yes, uh and so ebullient and full of love and but also knowledge. I remember being in the Jewish cemetery and you were talking about whether they drank coffee in heaven. Do you remember that moment, Joe? You were there, and I was going, This is surreal, and then just wanting to hear more. So it's like people who have such knowledge, such knowledge and faith, it's kind of humbling. So I don't share that this is I mean it's wonderful to be positive.
SPEAKER_07:I'll be very brief. The time when we were on the pilgrimage was a time when our faith in the world were killing one another. And so I came to this with that knowledge I'm a journalist, right? That's what I do. So I came to this with that fear. What if I don't get on? What if I say something that happens? My Jewish friend or my high friend or my Catholic friend. And so I was humid, and oh my god, the day it wasn't my journey. We were going from church to church to church, and I wasn't church guilding. Eventually, you can't do that for Jewish. The Islam seeped into the Christianity that seeped into the Jewish spending time with you in that temple was unreal for me. It was incredible. And I got to see the point of it all. We were the Abrahamic faiths, and in a way, by the end of this pilgrimage, I felt closer to my kin, right? To my cousins and my family.
SPEAKER_05:Now, the first two pilgrims I got to have a round table with was Harry and Chaponda. What strikes me about Harry is his simple wisdom, groundedness, and willingness to ask questions. His priorities are his family and his faith, which I know many of you will relate to. Harry, can I ask you a difficult question? When you were in the army, how did you reconcile that with your Catholic faith?
SPEAKER_02:Mine was very easy, like I found out in the traitors. I'm really good at compassmentalizing. So I think I saw it as in the army and the job I do is I'm taking extremists who are doing things differently and I'm giving them another chance. I'm giving them a second chance at like reconciling themselves in front of God. So as soon as I saw it like that, as I have a different really different brain and like the way I work is different. So yeah, I just saw it as I'm giving someone a second chance at faith and life.
SPEAKER_05:How do you feel about is there a lie with comedy? Is there a certain thing you're not allowed to take the Mickey out of? Would you take the Mickey out of religion?
SPEAKER_00:So I will mock everything, but I will mock it respectfully. Yeah. Right? I think it's it's the way you talk about it. And I think that like I've done jokes about faith in a church, in a synagogue, I've done high audience, and it's been totally fine because I say respectfully, and also I know the line, right? So I will mock practitioners of faith, but I won't mock the faith.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So it's knowing what the line is. And because I have faith, I'm very comfortable and I have no problem. But the bigger thing is I feel like entertainment is very shallow and narcissistic, right? And it very much rewards your ego. And I think the battle which I have is my faith is a thing which has to keep me grounded. You don't buy all the nonsense, you're just a person, and you try not to indulge in all the narcissistic temptations and stuff of it, because it's people are clapping at you and making it seem like you're more important than you are, and it's just being like, no, no, no, I'm just a person. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Harry and Delisso were then asked why they chose to do pilgrimage rather than any other reality TV show. And then chair of Nat Trey, Katie Freeman, asked them both a brilliant question.
SPEAKER_02:It was just because it meant so much to me. You know, it was just me as a whole, and when Alex, my manager, brought it to me, it was like, again, this whole career that we're trying to carve out in this industry is one of authenticity. It's like I want it to be authentic to me, and what means the most to me, and that's religion, and that's my family. And also, I know it made my mum proud. So I was like, yeah. But also for me personally, I knew that my religion itself had got a little bit cloudy. It was always strong faith. I was always still praying, but it's easy to go off the rails a little bit and see, well, what am I even actually praying for? And the pilgrimage was that sort of wipe where it made it a clear vision again.
SPEAKER_00:Also, similar to that, I've said no to a bunch of reality shows because I feel like a lot of reality shows they get their drama from Discord, put a bunch of people together and make them fight, right? And I had no interest in that sort of entertainment. And what persuaded me to do the pilgrimage is I spoke to people like Isha and Akbar who'd done it before, other comedians, and they're like, Oh no, no, it's about coming together, it's not about oh, put them in a position where they fight. I was like, oh, that is something that I I'm a very big fan of, so that's why and I'm glad it really was that.
SPEAKER_09:I think lots of people have talked about the journey that you've all been on through this, not just the walking part of it, but kind of the spiritual journey, and you've obviously had a lot of conversation with each other. I was just wondering, has your wealth, your your positionality changed as a result of the conversations that you've had on that journey and the people you got to know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think the reason why the pilgrimage was so amazing too is because you're seeing other people go through a journey, and it's so easy to think I know my faith and what I'm right and I'm good. As soon as you go on a pilgrimage like that and you see six other people going through their journey, you see some struggling or you see some really set in stone of what they believe and stuff like that, it affects your religion too. So for mine, like not to sound in a bad way, but people that were struggling with their faith, it made mine stronger as in like, okay, I'm in such a clear path, I'm not struggling. But that was because my views and my opinions are my own. So seeing other people so at war with what they believe in and knowing uh what I believe in is so true to myself, yeah. To sort of put my mind at ease. And again, like not even just the religious side of things, the life lessons I learned from like Delisso and all of this, like Jeff especially, like they have all of this life lessons because they've lived for a bit longer than I have, I guess, but they've been through so many different things. I'm so new to this industry. Jeff's been in it for 15, 20 years. Delisso has been in it, they're legends in it, so the way that they taught me how to view things and just see life as a whole and not just religion was really something special.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I found like it definitely reignited my faith, because my faith had sort of been in the background. I've always had it. But it's now more active, but also this has gotta sound a bit weird. But like when I started out as an artist, I was very ambitious. I wanted to change people, I wanted to to do all these really almost pretentious things, like and then it just kind of became like, oh, let me just be funny, this is my living. And I think that it again made me realize I've got important things to say, and so I've been trying to be a bit more reach people and talk about things which are difficult, hiding them in jokes and stuff, but I think it very much got me back to almost 20-year-old me who has all these delusions of grandeur, but like positive ones. Do you know what I mean? When I went on pilgrimage, I was a little nervous because I felt like I'm the bad person to be the face of the Baha'i faith, because I'm a person who became Baha'i, explores it, but I'm not like the perfect member. So I was very nervous, and I was even in that episode, I didn't know if I could define myself as a Baha'i. It's just I read a lot of the faith and I think about it and I pray. But then as the pilgrimage ranch out, I said, Oh, that's enough, because nobody's the perfect version of their faith. You know what I mean? Like everybody has doubts, everybody has struggles answering all the questions, and that's part of it. The doubt is part of it. So by the end, I was like, Oh no, I am a good Baha'i because there's no such thing as a good Baha'i. So yes, it definitely made me plunge more into it. For me, the part of the pilgrimage which was the valuable bit was the talking with people. Right? So the walking is what makes it interesting, but the talking to people. So I've tried to have more of a community of people who I can speak to about religion. I message Steph about faith and I chat more to people about religion, which is something which I didn't do before. It was an entirely personal thing. And I was like, I almost felt like I can be rejected by people if I tell them about my faith. And now, like I literally I ring my mum and talk about faith and like again, like my family, because we traveled so much, I'll just say Christian, then whichever Christian is close is what we go to. And my mum loves these conversations, but again, it was something which was reopened because I always felt weird talking to her about faith, because I'm like, I'm no longer a Christian. Would she struggle? And at the end of the pilgrimage, I got from our final destination, I got her a little wooden cross and I gave it to her, and that then was like the beginning of us talking about faith. Didn't you get something blessed by a monk?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I got a necklace from the I Still and Abbey. I got a black Madonna, like real gold necklace that the monk blessed with holy water and said a prayer over it.
SPEAKER_05:It's just really interesting you're saying, there's a story, I can't remember the guy's name, the poet Saks that did the elephant and the blind men. And it's a really lovely story that if you have like five blind men and they all hold part of the elephant, they'll all have very different experiences, but they're all correct. That's amazing. And actually, you know, one would say it's like a snake, and the other says it's like a tree trunk, and someone else says it's like a fan or whatever, it's like a piece of rope. But actually, what was so lovely about pilgrimage is it was people that held different parts of the elephant talking about their experience so you had a bigger sense of what the actual ultimate truth was. And I think that's why I like Baha'i and that analogy of the mountain, that the truth is at the top, and everyone's just taking their own little journey up.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's a really beautiful picture of I also think it's finding the right path for you. So even just in Christianity, if you look at the experience of Pentecostal African churches where they're singing and jumping up and down and yelling, and you compare that to like a Catholic Mass, they don't look like the same religion at all. No, right? Again, it's what's the path that works for you to get there.
SPEAKER_05:This next part is where Harry talks about his tattoos.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, no. This is just an excuse, and my mum didn't hate all my other tattoos. So it's her um tattooed to always say to the cross.
SPEAKER_04:And then it's a big thing. Yeah, it was just the cross.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so that's been a new one.
SPEAKER_04:Can you read it out?
SPEAKER_02:So it says, be who God meant you to be, and you'll set the world on fire. So that don't change, especially now as well in this industry, don't change for anyone else.
SPEAKER_05:Someone then points out how it was interesting that the traitors didn't reveal Harry's religious faith and whether Harry was worried about. How people would react to this news.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like I said at the start, that's what I'm so excited for, because that's how I view my faith as well. I've said this like imagine I picked up this glass and it smashed, you know, everyone around this table, all the traitors and stuff, would have a different shard where they see me through a different lens. But God to me is the only person that all of it is stuck back together with a bit of glue, you know, all the hardships, but he knows what that truly looks like as the whole picture. So I think knowing that and me believing that is what gives me a sense of calmness, that which is why I can't wait for people to see this side of me. But then there's also so many other sides to see. I'm always one of them people that I'll say what I want to say, and if someone doesn't like it then they don't like it. But also said with respect to everyone else and what they believe in, but that's what I truthfully believe in. So if I want to say I'm a Roman Catholic and you see me on the screen the way I am, is because I'm an open honest person. If people don't like that, then they don't have to watch, they don't have to listen, or they don't have to follow. They can go somewhere else. Like that doesn't affect me at all because at the end of the day I'm just my own person on my own path. And if people want to join in, they can join in. If they don't, they don't, you know?
SPEAKER_05:Harry, I was gonna say, you're so profound, that glass smashing analogy was really beautiful. Delissa, I was gonna ask you that there was a point where you were walking in the episode and it was going uphill. It was just before you got to that little chapel, and everyone was saying, Are you okay? And you were like, I'm just taking one step at a time and eventually I'll reach my destination. And I thought actually that seemed very reminiscent of your spiritual journey. Yes. But you haven't kind of arrived at your final destination yet. But like you're kind of taking steps.
SPEAKER_00:I always remember reading something which said that the more you think you figured it out, the further you are from the truth. And so I very much think that we're all trying to figure it out, and I'm very suspect of the people who say they know the truth. And I'm like, we're all humans. Unless you are literally a prophet, you are equally lost. You might be wiser than I am, but and then also the people who exploit people, like in Malawi, my home country, they're people who self-proclaimed themselves prophets and exploit people, and you know, you've got this everywhere where they're like their congregation can't eat and they've got a private jet. Those people are like, we know the truth, and I'm like, you don't know the truth, you're very far from the truth. And so, yes, I very much believe that I'm lost and I'm on a journey and it's a lifelong journey. But I think that's lovely because then it's not scary to be like I've not figured it out, because you're like, I'm not meant to have.
SPEAKER_02:I think uh to jump on top of that, that was like for me at a young age as well, with the whole religion and the way I view life, was that realization that life's not meant to be understood, it's meant to be felt. So instead of us spending our whole life trying to understand it and get to the top and have the most money and trying to, you know, be there, actually be present and life's meant to be felt as in just be happy. You know, if something's not making you happy, why is it not making you happy? Then just do something that makes you happy. Yeah. And I think that was the biggest thing for me. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_05:The next question was about whether anything surprised them about the journey, and then you hear questions from me and KT.
SPEAKER_02:No, I think as soon as I got there, like mine was very much like I was at home again. Like I'm so supposed to be here. It's like it's hard to explain that feeling that I didn't feel lost at all.
SPEAKER_00:The moment I saw that was we came across a crucifix and it had the Latin words on it, and you you were the only person who knew what it was, and you told us all that. I was like, oh wow, I had no idea.
SPEAKER_02:Random. Yeah, I know. Yeah, so it was just one of them things where I just always felt like I was so where I was supposed to be in that moment of time. So yeah, I didn't really have any hardships towards faith. It was just the only thing I like may have struggled with was seeing how other people struggled in their faith. For example, Nelpha, for example, you know, her faith truly believes that if you make one wrong thing in the Islam tradition, then you're damned for eternity. There's no reconciliation, there's no coming back, and you can still go to heaven, you know, you can still be forgiven. And seeing how that affects someone just made me sad, I guess. And that's probably the only hardships I dealt with.
SPEAKER_05:You both seem like if people are more like you, the world would be a more useful place.
SPEAKER_00:This is fish, right? Switch. Switch. Thank you so much. Wonderful.
SPEAKER_05:That's good. Harry, if you could wake up tomorrow and one thing was different about the world, what would you want it to be? Oh, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_02:Everyone be happy, easy. Again, my answer seems so simple, but yeah, sometimes it is just simplicity, that's all that it is. People overcomplicate everything. The same religion, like, all we've been saying is if everyone just saw, like, that when people are dying over religions and there's wars over religions, it's the most annoying thing ever because people actually took a step back and they realize actually, you know, all of the main religions, and except from probably Buddhism, believe in a God or a higher power that no one can explain. Or they believe in an energy. So at the end of the day, we all believe in the same thing, it's just a different version of that thing we believe in. So it's like the most annoying thing that everyone overcomplicates it. And it's so easy to do now because it's so much easier to be negative than it is positive. But if you just try and spend every day like it's your last, so if I woke up and then told everyone it's your last, you know, you'd hug everyone a little bit tighter, you'd make the most out of your day, and you wouldn't worry about the things that you wouldn't be worrying about tomorrow because you might not be there. And I think, yeah, that's what I would say. What about you?
SPEAKER_00:Yours is better than mine because like I always feel like people aren't evil, but systems are evil, like you know, capitalism and these things, and I would want to pull apart all the systems which create inequality and start again from scratch. We'll probably end up recreating a lot of them. But I almost feel like sometimes you can meet a lovely person who lives as good a life as they can in a country like the UK, and they're wearing a shirt, which is part of oppressing someone on the other side of the world, and that doesn't make them a less good person, it's the system which is evil, and so I'd almost just want to break apart the system, but it's not really practical. So that's what I mean. Like yours I can actually see happening, but like I just wish we could untangle the systems which have been put to place for hundreds of years.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, yeah. You've talked a lot about the conversations you've had with each other and learning from and with each other, which are some of the qualities of a good RE classroom. So I'm just wondering, I know you talked earlier, Harry, about you know, you studied RE and got an A-star, which is amazing. What would you say to children who are thinking about subjects to take up in the future to learn from? Why would you say RE was important for children in schools at the moment?
SPEAKER_02:Well, firstly, I was in a Catholic school, so we had RE anyway. And then also because I knew it made my mum proud, but uh also it was just something that came naturally. Like I never had to study, I never did study for any of my GCCs, so don't tell any of the kids that I wish I could go back because I reckon I'll do really well. I did anyway, I got all my GCCs. I'm like, I'm very smart when I need to be, but I can never be bothered to revise and things like that. So RE just came naturally. But I think it was something that I did wrong as a kid, but maybe the kids now can do differently is open up and realize that there is all these other religions, you know. That's why the pilgrimage was so amazing, because instead of going there thinking like you're right and what you believe in is right, or look at me, I'm always right, whatever you say is wrong. We didn't do that, you know, we had disagreements, but everyone believed that whatever you believed in you was right in your own way. So just in RE, if you view RE as that, then you'll have a much more enjoyable time and you'd be way smarter. Like I feel way smarter after that pilgrimage because I know so much about different faiths. I didn't even know the Baha'i faith was a thing until I went on that pilgrimage.
SPEAKER_10:So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We had scripture, sure.
SPEAKER_00:Right, um, which I think is similar, right? So just are you do you do just one faith or do you multiple faiths?
SPEAKER_09:And no and non-religious wealth.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay, okay, no, no. So no no. We did just Christian, right? So when I was in Kenya. But I think the thing which I think is really valuable is just ask loads of questions and don't feel stupid for asking lots of questions. I think a lot of children want to seem like an idiot, they don't want the other people to laugh at them, and it's just ask all the questions is the most valuable thing. And so that was my primary school, and then I went to a secondary school, which was more international, sure, and there was no religious class like scripture, but you were now in class with the person who's a Hindu and a person who's from a polygamist family, and and in our hostels, we would discuss each other's faith more, and that's exactly where I met the Baha'i and ended up.
SPEAKER_05:Thank you. Finally, there was a question about the army chaplaincy.
SPEAKER_02:When I was serving, obviously that was what, 2017, so religion was still heavy on religion in the army, you know, we'd have services for when it was Easter, or if someone was getting deployed, you know, um we were in the church. And that was a good thing that we were in the church, I think, because again, it's a thing that joins a lot of people in the community that you don't even realise, you know. Some of our mates now they don't believe in religion, but if we all had to go to church together, we're all sat there together, it's like that community that it builds. And then also because it's just a nice thing of even if you don't believe, you know, we'd say a prayer if people were getting deployed, you'd say a prayer for them because you hope that they come back. But it was a massive thing in the army.
SPEAKER_00:But you just triggered in my head. Like I was a refugee when I was growing up, and we moved to many different countries, but the church you'd be welcome, right? So the that community is is like whoever you are, come on in.
SPEAKER_05:In this section, we interview Jay McGuinness from The Wanted and actress and comedian Helen Lederer.
SPEAKER_04:What was the most interesting conversation that you had on your trip?
SPEAKER_08:The interesting one actually was touched on by Jay when well Jay invited this is wine now! Because we've never done this together before. This is all about Jesus. Yeah, what Jesus would have wanted. So there was a moment when you invited me to talk to you about your loss. Was it about a week in by then? Because I think we'd already connected. And because you it was all telegraphed to be you might go somewhere with the grief, so it felt like whoa, gotta get this right. So that was the most interesting to go with someone that you ha you know you have a laugh with, you've got a similar vibration, which is a lovely find, and then go into their real place and to try and be there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I would say for me that was probably the most I don't know if interesting is the word, but like the most poignant poignant conversation that I had, and I I sort of felt it coming in the ether. And Tony said, Jay, just tell me who do you want to talk to about this stuff? Who do you trust with that? And I thought the amount I mean Helen isn't shy to say what she thinks, but there's quite a lot of times that she did hold her tongue and look at me and sort of go, Are you thinking what I was thinking about yes? So you know, we were talking about life after death and what that even is, and I was kind of surprised but loved that Helen said just clear as day, you know, I believe in whatever it is, like God, I believe in it. I don't know necessarily that I'm an ASAR Jewish person following every single letter to the law, but I believe in him, you know, whoever that is or her. And I felt like such confident in that because I really admire her, obviously, and I don't know, it just felt nice.
SPEAKER_08:But that was a big moment you bring it back, because through uh genuine pain and sorrow of the loss of your friend and going through that with him, I found myself saying, Yeah, with some certainty that I believe in God, and you were very cheerful about it, and you said, Yeah, thanks, but I don't. Yeah. But but it was actually very beautiful because we I don't think either of us would have gone there had we not had that opportunity to have that conversation. So we kind of learnt something. It was all quite cheerful in that moment.
SPEAKER_01:Then I just thought, okay, well, I feel like you really care about me. I really care about you, and basically like, okay, love you, I've just made a human connection. If there is no God, then at least I've had this moment of human connection.
SPEAKER_04:So it's interesting because you found the connection with a human rather than a building. So when you're in the building, you're like, Yeah, this isn't I can't connect to this, anything that else is.
SPEAKER_01:And he's even if death is led by a Christian faith, I think she almost said something very similar that she took great value in the community. Yes. And that is where I think we find I mean, I loved the nature, like finding value in time out in the great outdoors was amazing, but also like finding a little sense of there's my mate. Yeah, that's a really lovely feeling.
SPEAKER_04:Because it's still connected to something greater than yourself, whether it's nature, whether it's a community. Right. That's just the important thing.
SPEAKER_08:That's why you're in your line with the religion. Because you've actually articulated that really well for us. Yes. So I may not be where you are, but we did get it. And you're left with a feeling of closeness and goodness that you wouldn't otherwise so maybe that's what it is through through this. Yes. So very grateful for that connection. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:It was a lovely answer.
SPEAKER_05:So many of you will know that Jay McGuinness lost his the wanted bandmate Tom Parker to brain cancer in March 2022, aged just 33 years old. Jay was asked whether this pushed him towards faith or away from it. Then Katie wows the pilgrims with a great question from her year four class.
SPEAKER_01:I think, I mean, as best as I can describe, it sort of circled me background. It made me have a good hard look at it, really. So I left it behind and and I wasn't curious about it. I was happy to just sort of find value only in the here and now. And then after you know, seeing everyone else go through their individual pilgrimage and sort of see them circle back to where they were, I thought, you know what, I think I'm okay with the mystery and really truly value the here and the now what I can hold on to for as long as I can, and you know, I value spending a nice afternoon with a with a friend or spending time with family, or those things are really important to me. It's just nice to take stock of it.
SPEAKER_09:I spoke to my year four class about learning about pilgrimage at the moment, and I said to them, Have you got any questions that you would ask? Because we've seen clips of the previous episodes and those conversations. And they said, Well, all of the pilgrims would have gone into the pilgrimage with a worldview, whether that's religious or non-religious. And I think that's came across in the episode really well. And what the children wanted to know was, did your conversations with each other change your own worldview? Or did you come away with a different view of the world, I guess, afterwards?
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what's funny? I because that means quite a lot of if I've gained faith or not, and I've said quite often like repeatedly that I sort of circled back. Part of the reason that that is the case is because I noticed after meeting various people, ever each person from their different faiths would feel a sort of strengthening of their faith. And I thought, but your faiths don't align. Maybe not, you know, down the line, but everyone sort of felt closer to their the way they were raised. I mean, I guess I was raised Catholic, so maybe I felt further away, but because everyone sort of seemed to be taking, like, yeah, I'm a heartened Christian or I'm a heartened Muslim, I felt, huh, I guess you get what you want out of it, and so maybe neither is pulling stronger than the other, so I'm gonna stick where I'm at.
SPEAKER_08:But you still went through a journey to kind of decide.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that was all ears. I really was all ears listening to them.
SPEAKER_08:Because you wanted to believe in God when I told you to, and then you were really annoying. Yeah, it's the opening up of each other that taught us the faith or the level of faith or the words, yeah.
SPEAKER_09:And it's kind of giving yourself time to, I guess, ask yourself life-speak questions, isn't it? As well, you've got that kind of peace and quiet and people you can kind of compare experiences with as well.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, as I said, quite interesting being with a informed Christian that was an opportunity. Okay, so tell us the answers, and you being teachers and Christian teachers, I assume, but you know, we locked out on that because we could ask all sorts of weird.
SPEAKER_01:I think, yeah, Steph was a really reliable source, whether it was like scripture or even just her own insights. She was there. And she's a really good example, I think, of someone who leads a life in a Christian forward way and is super non-judgmental and just seems like she was cool to hang out with.
SPEAKER_05:Very extraordinary. They were then asked how they felt watching the first episode for the first time.
SPEAKER_01:It transported me straight back to the feeling of being there, which i is different from viewing it. Viewing it is one thing, and then feeling the feeling of us all being together, like Tony being there too, and sort of going, Come here, guys, you know, like topic. It threw me back. And then just seeing like some of the journeys that I didn't see was really lovely. Like seeing Steph talk really openly about her accident and then her thoughts about family, and then Harry too, like really sitting like quite comfortably in his Catholicism, which we did he did all the way through, but see him just go and pray. I'm like, what a legend. Absolutely, I agree. Nice to see all those things that we were, you know, yeah, we couldn't be everywhere, couldn't we?
SPEAKER_08:No, we couldn't. As much as we'd like to have been.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah, it was a privilege to see those moments, but next they were asked about the significance of there being seven pilgrims, as it is a significant number in the Abrahamic faith. The voice you hear from the back is series producer Tony Williamson.
SPEAKER_08:And I think we decided that eight was far too many to cover eight people. So we took an odd number though, isn't it, Tony?
SPEAKER_04:I wonder so that means seen as the perfect number, it's a number of completion because that's the day in which God rested from completing the earth. So throughout the Abrahamic face, seven is seen as kind of quite a spiritual number, but a perfect number of completion. I know and so you are now. It was womenly, you've connected to this very holy number. That's not the box we were cheating. But it is a nice choice.
SPEAKER_01:Seven is a nice mix because you don't get split down the middle. There's no half. That's it. So you all sort of rotate around and no gang.
SPEAKER_08:There's no gang. That's I understand that now, clever. Yeah, no gang, and it could keep moving. If you're in a half one day, not that we ever were, it meant that it could all be absorbed quite soon in another formation.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I'm sure it helps with TV. If there's only seven versus eight, nine, ten, everyone has a little bit more time to stand alone. But that's also true of the group. You know, if you're with six other people, then everyone becomes sort of a quite standout, standalone character. No one gets lost in the crowd, you know.
SPEAKER_08:No, you're never alone.
SPEAKER_01:Whether you like it or not.
SPEAKER_05:The last two pilgrims we had a round table with was Paralympian Steph Reed and journalist Nella Far Hade. After my question, you'll hear the voice of Nature A director Angela Hill asking them for a message to take back to the RE classroom, which leads to an interesting and unexpected conversation about science and religion. Can I ask you, is there any question you want to be asked that no one's asked you yet?
SPEAKER_07:If we had fun, we're still very rarely want to know if a pilgrimage is fun. And the answer is yes. There was less walking than I thought there'd be, and there was less time, really. It all feels like it went by in minutes, honestly, for me. Minutes felt like hours, hours felt like minutes. It was surreal, but the fun you saw of us having was real. It was genuinely an interesting process. And behind the scenes, there was a lot of learning. Like we were understanding notes, we were trying to get to grips with where we were, what we were doing. So it was way more than just what a realize painting, let's move on. You know, we we put ourselves into it, but it was fun.
SPEAKER_06:It was fun. I described the experience as actually one of the best churches I've ever been to because for me, that's what churches should be. It's just a bunch of people from different backgrounds trying to wrestle with really difficult questions. But it also just reminded me of being back in university when you just had that constant community. Like it's so hard in your adult life to make new friends and to make time for that. But when you all just get chucked together and you know, you're all staying in the same place and having meals together, it was wonderful. And I just I could not recommend it enough, especially in modern society, to take two weeks out like that just felt so indulgent, and I just loved it.
SPEAKER_03:If there was something that you could take into the classroom with you for teachers of RE from this experience, what would the one thing be?
SPEAKER_07:Tolerance. It's a tenant of all of our faiths that we have lost. I have a tattoo. Don't tell the priest. I have a tattoo in my foot. It's a pie shopies of a white lotus, and one of the things it means is tolerance. So whenever I'm having a disagreement with someone, as I often do as a journalist, you know, butting heads, I go, oh, and I look at my foot and I'm like, oh yeah, tolerance. And I just go, okay, let's continue this conversation. But I think that is the biggest takeaway from this show when you watch all the episodes and you watch our kind of arc, our journey, is that I would argue that we have lost our way in this world, screaming at one another, I'm right, you're wrong, I have the right to this place, and you have a right to that place, or whatever it is. And in my opinion, tolerance is one of the key tenets that I wish would be taught more.
SPEAKER_06:I think I would wholeheartedly agree with that. And I think I would just tack on never dismiss a question. Um, curiosity is fine. And I my background actually is as a biochemist. And before I got back into sports, I took a year to study theology at a graduate school, Regent College. And part of it was just because I had just had four years of evolution and in a university that very much dismissed creation. And it's not that it necessarily changed how I felt about my faith, but you know, you have to legitimately look at these things and just be like, okay, guys, like some of this makes sense. And so as a church, how are we going to deal with this? An honest way. And I remember asking my first question, one of the courses I was so excited to take was science and theology. And thinking, wow, they're either gonna kick me out right now or how it's gonna happen. And they were fine. You know, nobody should ever be scared of pursuing the truth. And I think every single question, none of them are stupid, none of them are dumb, and we should have the freedom to ask them. Have you reconciled that science versus religion question? Plus I had ideal. But thank you. Um no, I think for me. The short answer is like the Bible was not written in our language. I mean, I find studying Shakespeare really difficult. Okay, so now imagine studying these texts that are so many more years removed. And so you have to handle the scripture very carefully. And I think the short answer is the Bible was not written as a science textbook. And you can't make it do something that it's not meant to do. And the reality is that the Bible is just unclear. You know, maybe we don't actually know. Like in seven days and seven literal days, did it mean, I don't know, seven million years? But that just wasn't the point of that story. They were not trying to write out, you know, the chemical equations for life, and so to treat it as that is just it doesn't work. Evolution very much could be part of the concept. And I think if you read the creation account, the biggest thing that author is trying to get through is just that God created this for that of love. He loves every single person in it and he loves creation. Like that is the point he was trying to make, not I made it in this way. And that's that's where I've settled on it.
SPEAKER_05:There's a nice phrase that says, Don't ask whether the Bible is true, but look for the truth in the Bible. And I think that's kind of what you're saying, isn't it? Actually, the truth is that there is a creator who created for a purpose out of love. But that's not necessarily the literal truth in how it's written and what happens. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And actually, so one of one of the questions that came up in this course was there's actually a very similar creation account in a previous culture. And so people are like, well, did they just copy it? But then actually, if you look at it, there's a very distinct difference. And the difference is that in the Christian account, God made the world out of love. Yeah. As opposed to It was a Gilgamesh, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04:The is it Babylonian or Mesopotamian? One of those, isn't it? Yeah. They got the creation story.
SPEAKER_06:The point that author was trying to make is just that God loves people, not that there's a distance God who doesn't really care. And so, yeah, I think it's really difficult to say.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:But you have to look to the heart. Yes, I do like your phrases, thank you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Steph is then asked about her encyclopedic knowledge of Christianity and how well she is able to tell others about her faith without it feeling like aggressive evangelism.
SPEAKER_06:One of guess the things that you're meant to do as a Christian is you are meant to evangelize, be an evangelist. And I've always kind of been like, like when I see people on street corners yelling, you know, have fire. I am I like I just I'm embarrassed about it. And and maybe that's not fair, but I think from where I come from, I'm not someone, I don't want to evangelize with my words. That's just like if you can't see my faith and what I do, then my faith doesn't mean anything. But I would also, I think you have to earn the right to speak into someone's life. And so yelling at someone you've just met doesn't actually help, but you need to know where someone comes from. Like people come to their conclusions for very good reasons, and you have to know enough about their life in order to get there. And I almost I describe it as you need to earn the right to that. And if someone doesn't believe in Christianity, I have zero expectation. Why would they follow, or why would they do what I do? Like it doesn't make any sense, and I I just wouldn't expect that. And ultimately, people need space and time to work out where they're gonna get to. And Jay asked me some really difficult questions, which I really appreciated. And initially you kind of think like, oh no, like if I don't have all the answers, you know, you almost feel like this defensiveness come up. And then I just realized that it's fine. Like actually I don't have to have all the answers, and I can live with that tension and I'm okay. So, like one of the conversations we had was genuinely, if if there was irrevocable proof that you know Jesus was literally made up, the whole thing was made up, I would have to rethink my life and everything I believe. And then Jay was like, Yeah, but can you just carry on as what you do? But I'm like, no, because for me that just takes away the power. Like, what does it matter then? And so it was this, yeah, just this really interesting conversations that we have, but that's why I would say you cannot be a Christian in isolation. Like the whole point of Christianity is how you treat people. Like you cannot be you without someone else there. And so I actually can't live out my faith unless I'm in a community of people and learning from them. And I think that's just kind of what God did on purpose. Like we each have little bits of God in us, and you've got to go and like search them. And that to me is the fullness of God, everybody together.
SPEAKER_07:So she just did the thing she said, right? She just did it. What did I do? That's talk about Christianity, explain its point and its talents to an audience that is willing to listen, not shouting, evangelising, but in community, quietly. I think that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_05:I was really blown away by your honesty and you weren't afraid to tackle really difficult topics.
SPEAKER_04:Has any part of this process helped you reconcile what people are doing with religion or doing in the name of religion with what you think it could be, like the potential of religion to be impactful and life-changing?
SPEAKER_07:I'm not gonna give away anything. Suffice it to say that we go on a bloody journey, don't we, Steph? We go on a journey and we go on one on it together, and there are things that are gonna come up. So there's this bit where I was supposed to go to a refugee centre with DeLeo, because he comes from a refugee background, and just before we were supposed to go, I just asked Tony, Sirius Aris, I was like, can I go with Steph, please? Because I have a connection with her and I just I want her there. You know, yeah, sure, if that's what you want, you know. So DeLeo gets to stay, Steph has to come with me, and we go to this refugee centre where I'm confronted with essentially someone who's living the trauma of my refugee background. I come from Afghanistan, and whereas I'm now comfortable living a cushiony middle class lifetime in London, this person is like in it, right? They're in the throes of what that journey is, and I remember how hard it is to be a refugee. There's no way to tell you. And there's Steph with me, guiding me through this thing, holding my hand, being her Christian self, all of those things. And I got to see, and I was like, wait a minute, I'm experiencing that Christian love, and it's beautiful, it's so powerful. I hope I have maybe demonstrated parts of Islam to you of that discipline, that ruggedness, the sheer force of it.
SPEAKER_06:You are a force of nature.
SPEAKER_07:I was but yeah, so I guess to come full circle, it it has been a really tricky journey, and you will see it unfold, very much so. So, to give you a bit of a background, I started off my career going to Afghanistan and showing women committing self-immolation and the plight of women under the Taliban. I then went on to do the Arab Spring, got tear gassed, had to flee, was kettled, went to the border in Syria, saw the destitution there. Then my journalism took me into illegal markets where I saw babies being sold, fake pharmaceutical drugs being made. Talk about the worst parts of humanity, right? And oftentimes there was a layer of faith. So to me, religion means control. It's a form of control. So having that almost dissociative understanding meant that I never felt challenged because I was like, my religion's not that thing, that thing's horrific. They've got a flag and they're beheading people. My one says, like, pray, you know, slightly different. I found it incredibly uncomfortable turning off the journalist in me to the point where I think the crew sometimes are like, you can't, this isn't presenting. You're not on television for that. I still struggle with it. I'm very scared of what people think of me. I'm scared of what my own community will think of me. I fully expect some people within the Muslim faith to just be like heretic. How dare she? Who is she? She doesn't represent us. And that's not coming from nowhere, it's because people have said that to me, you know, before. So it's very vulnerable as a Muslim, as a woman who isn't typical of my faith to be here.
SPEAKER_05:The two pilgrims are then asked about their future projects. Listen out for information about the superhuman centre in Ukraine, I'll put the link in the show notes.
SPEAKER_06:So I'm running a little of the marathon in two and a half weeks' time, and I'm terrified that it is not my physiology. Um we'll just say that. But the reason I'm doing it, actually, one of it, it was partly from the pilgrimage, and I thought, okay, like actually I can do this kind of mileage. It was more from the standpoint of stump health. It's a lot of mileage for a marathon. I thought, if I can survive this, this is good. But kind of around that same time, I became aware of the superhuman center in Ukraine. And the short version is there have been over a hundred thousand new amputees in Ukraine since the start of the war. That is an underestimate. And it's the most difficult type of amputees because we're doing a lot of landmines, Burduin has a lot of explosions, they're very difficult. Ukraine does not have the infrastructure, so they have come together and said, right, we need to sort this out because we need to provide prosthetics. There's no way we're letting our soldiers, our heroes who've given up their lives, not come back and live awesome lives. So I'm running a marathon for them, the superhuman center in Ukraine. I'm also actually attempting a world record four days before for a wall sit, which is as boring as a wall.
SPEAKER_07:It is not boring. Like literally sitting on a wall. Yes.
SPEAKER_06:Well, no, I mean there's no chair, but you know, like you're against a wall. Okay. And you pretend like there's a chair there. Correct reaction. Correct reaction. What's the happening? Okay, well, this one, okay, this is something that gets tricky. So um I'm actually doing it as an amputee. Technically, the record right now is two minutes and thirty seconds, which is not great. So I'm gonna attempt for an hour. So I thought if we're gonna do this, then we're gonna do it. Thank you. It is possible.
SPEAKER_07:It is two 25 seconds. Sit on side.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:I've become really taken with this, and I want to do a documentary about it. So Nilfa and I were chatting about it, what that's gonna look like. But the bigger picture is just it tells a much bigger picture about humanity in terms of how come some people can face trauma and come out of it one way, and why do some people face it and come out of it a different way? And that's what I want to look at. And this country is gonna set an example for what it looks like to bring yourselves back from the brink. That's a short version.
SPEAKER_07:And also I want to see Steph there. You know what I mean? I want to put a camera on her face and experience what she feels about all the stuff because she's very good at telling stories, but I want her to feel them. So that's what I'm I'm keen to do. But yeah, that's it's just a little dream that we have.
SPEAKER_05:Steph and Nella Fur are asked whether there was an instant rapport and whether it felt like a safe space to be themselves.
SPEAKER_07:Not initially. No. I don't know her. Who is she? Like this this Christian lady who just keeps saying stuff that sounds really pretty, but doesn't actually apply to the real world. And then there's this Jewish woman who won't call herself Jewish because she's from her history, but it's not her history, it's her father's history. I was like, what is this? What if I don't get on with any of these people because they're so good? I'm not. I'm not a good person of faith. I'm kind of crummy. I've lost my faith, left it behind, and then I've come back to it. And then slowly over time, for me, as the first week turned, I didn't realize, but I was just so angry and holding so much of this frustration and anger and distrust. And then slowly and slowly, I was like, okay, so what if I did tell them that I'm hurting and I'm in pain, in spiritual pain. I am in on fire spiritually. I am so, so lost. I don't know who set me on fire. Was it me? Did it somebody else? I'm in so much pain, I don't know what to do. And it was after that, after expressing myself and really being like, guys, I'm in trouble. That's when I was like, okay, I'm in your hands, let's see what we're doing.
SPEAKER_06:It takes time. I mean, trust and rapport is not something that you can fake. Like it will just scream fake, and you just can't really do that. Also, it just takes time, you know, you need to learn about the people that you're with, you know, before I want to start either sharing or commenting because I just don't feel like I have a right to unless I've spent time with this person and you know I know where they're coming from and I've heard their story first. But yeah, for me, actually, something that's always been really important in my life is having that freedom just to ask awkward questions. I hate the idea of cancel culture because it just then in some ways means that people have to stuff things down. And I'm like, ultimately, I would rather get to the truth than just to hang on to a version that I find quite comfortable. And so I just would always want to be in a situation where everybody is free to ask, and we look at it and we deal with it, and that to me is just the best way to learn and then move on.
SPEAKER_05:Then they are asked about the motivation for taking part in the show, and we try to recruit Steph as an RV teacher.
SPEAKER_06:I think for me, I had been asked to do the show before, and it was just tricky because our world championships always fell along the same time, and so I couldn't do it. I do feel very much like I was just I was meant to be on this one, and for me it was great. Just people and and scenery and weather was perfect, but I think the time in my life, it's really hard when you retire from sport and you're trying to do a new career, and you're very aware all of your peers are like 20 years ahead of you because you know you spent all your time jumping into a sandpit, and so you just feel like you know, you gotta go, you gotta do everything. And so I had just never taken a break. Whereas actually life had changed quite dramatically, and I'd never really had a chance to think about it. I wanted to go on this pilgrimage because I thought, my goodness, I'm gonna have two whole weeks just like to think about my life and be with other people. I'm like, that was just yes, sign me up for that.
SPEAKER_07:Just to be clear, I meant we were lucky that she came on our pilgrimage. That was just the biggest break we had, to be honest. I was going on a jolly, I'm not gonna lie, someone's gonna pay me to go and see the beautiful Alps and have a little walk. I'm in, why not? What could happen? Oh, religious awakening? Wasn't quite expecting or anticipating that when it did. I thought I was making a TV show, I thought I was making a reality TV show. It turns out I wasn't. We weren't. If you're looking for a career change, we really need our ETH.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, ladies.
SPEAKER_05:So that's it. I feel so privileged to have had these conversations with such diverse and beautiful people who are showing what respectful dialogues about difference looks like. The programme is aired on the 20th of April 2025, which is Easter Sunday. So that could be in the past or the future, depending on when you are listening to this. We will be doing a live Natrey tweet along as we watch all the episodes, so please join us if you can. But if you are in need of a warm hug of a programme, then this is it. And if you haven't ever watched any of the series, go back and binge watch. My thanks to J McGinnis, Helen Lederer, Harry Clark, Delissa Chaponda, Steph Reed, and Nella Far Hade, Tony Williamson, Katie Freeman, and Angela Hill, and to everyone at CTVC who made this series possible, and for the BBC for airing this beautiful show about authentic people and their relationship with faith. My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this has been the R.E. Podcast. The podcast for those of you who think RE is boring, but it's not. It's on the Blooming BBC. But thank you so much for letting us bore the life out of you.