S15 E8: The One About Dawn Cox

This year we lost an legend. Words will never be able to capture everything that Dawn was to the RE Community or to her friends and family. But I hope this episode goes some way to pay tribute to the incredible person who was Dawn Cox ,and to say thank you.

We hear written and spoken tributes from Rachael Jackson Royal, Katie Freeman, Nikki McGee, Claire Clinton, Matt Pitcher, Jen Jenkins, Ruth Marx, Richard Farnyfun, Sue Nurse, Saima Saleh, Alice Thomas and Wendy Dossett.

And I speak to Roy - he partner of over 20 years about this brutal loss.

Warning - there are moments of joy and laughter but also moments of sadness and grief.  

We will keep the legacy of Dawn alive in our hearts, minds and classrooms.

Here is a link to her blog;

https://missdcoxblog.wordpress.com/

Text and story in RE;

https://www.reonline.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Dialog.pdf

Her books;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Dawn-Cox/s?rh=n%3A266239%2Cp_27%3ADawn%2BCox

Her articles;

https://hwrkmagazine.co.uk/author/dawn-c/

Applying Rosenshine to RE;

https://my.chartered.college/early-career-hub/applying-rosenshine-to-religious-education/

Dealing with diversity;

https://www.retoday.org.uk/uploads/Publications/REtoday%20magazine/REtoday%20%E2%80%93%20Messy%20religion%20and%20belief/Dealing%20with%20Diversity.pdf

BBC coverage;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgp422xljgo

Transcript

SPEAKER_13: 0:05

Welcome to the R.E. Podcast, the first dedicated R.E. podcast for students and teachers. My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this is a very special episode of the R.E. Podcast. To pay tribute to our wonderful friend and colleague, Dawn Cox. Dawn was tragically in a car accident in March 2025 and died of her injuries at the beginning of April. And on the 14th of June 2025, many of us will be celebrating her life. So I want to create an episode to highlight this incredible woman whose contribution to the RE community and beyond is immense. Many of us can't imagine a community or a world without her. Everyone listening to this episode would have been positively impacted somehow by Dawn. Maybe you have taught her lessons on Oak National, or read her book Make Every RE Lesson Count, or used her GCSE revision textbook, or engaged with her blog, Miss D. Cox Blog, or read her endless posts on Respect, the subject community for RE professionals on Facebook. Maybe she has spoken at your school, or delivered CPD, or you've had a hot debate with her. She was very passionate and sometimes opinionated. She asked the difficult questions, challenged the narrative, researched the details. Many of you were lucky enough to call her friends and spent hours on the phone to her, thinking through decisions and ideas. She was so generous with her time and her wisdom. I know for me, I would not have seen one of the oldest mosques in Palestine without her. We were visiting Lazarus' tomb, and it shares a war with the 400-year-old Al-Azir Mosque. Because of her curiosity and tenacity, we were generously shown round by the Imam and given gifts of Qurans for our classrooms. In this episode, we are going to hear from Dawn herself with clips from the three episodes she recorded for the RE podcast, and we are going to hear about her from her friends and colleagues to help us remember the impact she had and will continue to have through her incredible legacy. When she was in the medically induced coma directly after the accident, there were endless messages from the RE community, from people who knew her, knew of her, had been taught by her or inspired by her. I want to read some of those messages now. I have been given permission to use them. Wendy Dossett wrote, What a sad loss to her loved ones and to the RE world, to which she was and always will be a light. Alice Thomas wrote, The RE world will never be the same again. Her legacy will live on in her work. While Alice and I were talking, Alice shared this other story with me. She said I was also honoured to share the same slot as her in March at the teacher talk event in Manchester, and I even commented when I spoke straight after her that it was an honour to speak after her and how much I had learned from her. The last message I received from Dawn was asking if I was in Manchester on the Friday evening and checking if I was around to go out with her. To me that showed what a kind and thoughtful person she was. I still think of her often. Richard Farney Funn wrote, Dawn was an immeasurable talent. Like many in our community, I never had the privilege to meet her, but through the online world I caught something of her character. She enigmatically placed on her biography on X, Not Who You Think I Am, and Devil's Advocate, and seemed to glide effortlessly between the real and digital world, a model of how educators can successfully navigate both. The part of her character that shone through and so many have commented and paid tribute to was her insatiable and relentless drive to investigate, share, and improve religious education. A few words for one of her posts carried more wisdom and insight than some of the countless CPD sessions I have attended and delivered over the decades. I shall certainly miss her humour. She made no secret of her disdain for Kahoot, and I couldn't resist the bait, and only last month we were exchanging comments over the online learning software. Her rapier wit was so sharp, but also good natured. I recall too, during the interminable COVID lockdown, her online RE quiz. The ambition was epic, and of course all the questions were challenging. It helped to make what was an isolating experience a communal one. The RE community is certainly a lot less smart and funnier than it was due to her loss. But her legacy, it feels preposterous to be writing of her legacy when she still had so much to give, is like many aspects of teaching, incalculable. It is staggering to think of the positive influence she has had on us as adults in the profession, let alone those youngsters she had in her classroom for those years. Religious education was lucky to have her as part of the family. Jen Jenkins said Dawn was a delightful mix of passionate fire and genuine warmth. She made room for everyone in the RE community. Such a spirit of generosity. To say she will be missed is an understatement.

SPEAKER_11: 5:10

What I love about Dawn is that you could ask any of your seemingly silly questions, and she would answer them, and then she would pose you some really hard ones, but it it always felt safe for you to offer an answer, and she just genuinely I think loved helping people and loved learning from people. We had this really nerdy night where she'd asked me about Orthodox Lent and particularly the Holy Week. And so I made this PowerPoint and we just went through it together. I think I ended up narrating it for her as well. But she was just asking loads of questions and just really interested, and I was like a total newbie in terms of knowing about orthodoxy because I was on my own journey, but we just had this lovely time together, and I really appreciated everything she brought to the RE community. She was like really fierce, you know, but really warm with it, and it was such a unique combo, and she is just so so missed. So every time I use any of her stuff, I'm really making a point now of making everyone know this is from Dawn, this is her legacy. And it doesn't have to woven into our syllabus, particularly her dialogue stuff on text and her lenses stuff, stuff on personal knowledge that I shared recently. So I think that's how we do it. You know, we just keep referring back. This is from Dawn. This is a gift to you from Dawn.

SPEAKER_13: 6:36

Ruth Marks wrote, I've been trying to tell my family and friends about how much Dawn means to us in the RE world. The only thing I've been able to say is she's a rock star to us. Bold, brave, creative, inspiring, and wickedly funny. Thank you for everything you have given to us, Dawn.

SPEAKER_07: 6:53

Hi, my name is Ruth Marks and I'm an RE teacher. And over the last year I worked with Dawn on the Oak Academy National Religious Studies Resources for Secondary. And I'm also the co-vice chair of Ariac, of which Dawn was a member of our association. I knew of Dawn, of course, for many years, but over the last year I've worked closely with her on a big national project, which involved long discussions about pedagogy, theology and social sciences, and of course the national curriculum. I was so excited to work with Dawn, as she's been one of my RE queen heroes for years. But what I didn't expect was how much I would feel connected with her. I think she has that effect on everyone. When we spoke as she did that incredible laugh at my jokes, and RE related puns, or she wrote notes on my lessons saying, I love this. I felt that she got me. What I loved about Dawn was the way she welcomed challenge, not only undertaking challenging tasks, but actively seeking views which challenged her own, in order to check hers was the most valid position, to know how to defend it further. And one night I texted her late. I've worked out my nigger with a national curriculum for RE, I said, after a long chat during the day with her about it. We're talking about that tomorrow, she replied, and we had another long discussion where I said the issue and she relished the chance to successfully counter. She said, This is what we have to do in RE. Search out the different views, why people don't agree so we can understand them and strengthen our own. This is why I love you, Dawn. Always pushing the RE community to learn more about our differences and become stronger together. This summer Dawn was going to come over my French mountains in her camper van full of kittens to sit in my garden and talk more RE with me. I'm planting an olive tree for her there today instead, and I'll think about it each time I see it and resolve to be more Dawn in my career as an RE teacher. Thank you, Dawn.

SPEAKER_13: 8:34

We're now going to hear some clips of the three episodes I have been privileged enough to have done with Dawn. The one about her book, Make Every RE Lesson Count, one about GCSE RE, and one about the trip we took to Israel. Then we're going to hear from some of her friends and colleagues who wanted to share what Dawn means to them.

SPEAKER_04: 8:52

Just spend as much time as you can kind of doing retrieval with students, I think, and plan it, plan retrieval. Don't kind of leave it. Use homework to your advantage, structure it. Certainly don't ever just say to students, your homework is to revise. Make it really specific, make it really clear the topic you're covering, how it's going to help them, because then it provides this kind of big picture. We're providing a big picture, we're covering everything so that they walk in that exam totally confident and they walk out happy.

SPEAKER_13: 9:23

Do you want to just sort of say why Israel is so important to you and why you spent so much time here?

SPEAKER_04: 9:28

Yeah, so I've been here a few times and people kind of think, well, why ever come back? So I spent a long time here when I was younger, whilst I was in my undergraduate degree. And I think it's a really special place. And I think for me, was there are important places to do with religion, which I teach about all the time. It's about people. So I made friends then that have been friends for life. And I think part of this trip as well is about the people as well.

SPEAKER_13: 9:59

And also there's so many different types of people here. So we've got RE teachers primary, we've got secondary, we've got religious people, we've got non-religious people, married couples, singles. It's really diverse, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04: 10:09

Yeah, I think it's been really nice to get to know new people and to hear their perspectives and the places that we visited, because you always get a new perspective um that you might not have thought about and to hear about different beliefs about the different sciences. So the book is called Making Every RE Lesson Count, and it's a part of a kind of teaching series originally written by uh Sean Allison and Andy Tharby.

SPEAKER_13: 10:33

So Dawn. Why does every RE lesson count?

SPEAKER_04: 10:36

Well, I hope all your listeners already know this, but I think what we need to do is make really clear how RE is special and important as a part of what every child has as a part of their education. So I think this book is kind of putting RE there alongside the other subjects which have books in this series and saying actually we are similar in lots of ways, but actually we're also unique. And I think for students they need to see that RE is special in its own way. You know, it has things that you won't study elsewhere and opportunities that you won't have elsewhere, but also things that are common to other subjects as well in terms of how it'll be taught.

SPEAKER_13: 11:19

Her partner Roy wrote on Blue Sky, The Brilliant Dawn Louise Cox, 15th of December, 1977 to April the 8th, 2025. My soulmate, love of my life, my rock, my world. Enjoy your final nap, HB. I am lost, lost, lost. And I'm so honoured to have Roy with me now. Dawn is quite a private person, and so we wanted to honour and celebrate her, but also respect her privacy. The questions I'm gonna ask Roy have been pre-decided with this in mind. Do you want to just tell us who you are?

SPEAKER_01: 11:55

Well, my name's Roy Watson Davis, and for the past 21 years I've been Dawn's partner, and for the last 17 years I've been her fiance.

SPEAKER_13: 12:04

We'll come to that in a second because there's a story about that. But just talk to us about how you met, because this is such a glorious story.

SPEAKER_01: 12:10

Well, we met back in 2004 on the old Time Z website. We both started advising someone on a thread, and then we started talking on the thread, and about four weeks later we decided to meet up, and that was that really. It was quite interesting because at the time Dawn was running multiple identities on the Time Z website, and it then transpired. One of them was she was running an undercover dating service. And I used to joke with her that she'd only set it up so she could set herself up with someone, and then she met me and it ruined the whole project. But um I can't say she denied it, but yeah, it's quite successful, I think. I think she had an anonymous radio interview about it at one point, which she has never listened to, because I said she sounded terribly posh on the radio. And she did, but she never ever listened to it.

SPEAKER_13: 12:57

Does um the Times Ed still do this? Can you still I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01: 13:00

I haven't been active on the Times Ed for years and years. It used to be a really good forum, you know, back in the day, where you would get quite a lot of good advice from quite a lot of teachers, and like most things, it then became a bit more social, and then they started monetizing stuff, and then I lost interest. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_13: 13:15

And tell me the sort of qualities about Dawn that made you fall in love with her.

SPEAKER_01: 13:19

It was interesting because a friend of mine said a couple of weeks ago, you just got each other. You know, you just completely understood each other. I think what drew us together is apart from our professional personas, we both found the world quite difficult to interact with.

SPEAKER_03: 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:34

But when we met, it was like Dawn came up with this saying, everything is better when we're together. And in fact, where her last Valentine's Day card to me this year had that printed on the front of it. We just felt connected straight away. And I mean, in 21 years, I think we had three arguments, and two of those were in the first two years we went out. So it wasn't so much qualities, it was just like we clicked and we became our own support networks. And of course, now it's quite awful because you know our closeness has gone.

SPEAKER_13: 14:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:07

And the world is now very difficult to interact with again for me.

SPEAKER_13: 14:10

And actually, that one person that got you, that one person that made you made sense, has gone.

SPEAKER_01: 14:14

Has gone.

SPEAKER_13: 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:16

Because Dawn's working persona and and home persona were fairly similar, but she liked being connected to me. So whenever she travelled, because she loved travelling, and I loved her travelling, because you know, why would you not want her to do something she loved? But she would always send me a picture of the food she was eating, or she'd text me, or with FaceTime. So we're always you know, we always made sure once a day we connected somehow.

SPEAKER_03: 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:39

Uh and the breaking of that chain and the entire absence of dawn is is pretty unbearable.

SPEAKER_13: 14:44

Yeah, because you feel it so much because you were so connected.

SPEAKER_01: 14:48

Yeah, yeah, and because we weren't the most sociable of couples, as as anyone who knows us will know.

SPEAKER_03: 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:53

Um to to lose that kind of part of your life, having found it, is very, very difficult.

SPEAKER_13: 15:00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I remember when when we're in Israel together, I know that Katie Freeman was saying that she just FaceTimed you every evening, and you know, that became part of of the ritual of that trip, and so you feel that loss much more because you were so connected. Yes, very much so. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that you've been engaged for 17 years.

SPEAKER_01: 15:23

Yes. Well, our our engagement was a whole romance in itself. We were watching telly, one of the god-awful programs Dawn used to watch, which was East Enders, I think, and we said, Shall we get married? And she said yes, and we get watching the telly. And the next day we went out and got a ring. And that was it. But it was very conditional because Dawn was very independent and she said, Let's pick something really unlikely to happen to trigger the wedding. And I'm a Brentford fan, and at that time, Brentford Football Club were in Division 2 and doing badly. I said, Ho ho, why don't we get married when Brentford got into the premiership? And she was fine with that because it was never going to happen. Of course, four years ago they got promoted, but she had to get out of jail crowd. She said, Well, it wasn't automatic promotion, it was playoff, so it doesn't count. So she managed to maintain her independence because Brentford cheated on their way up by going through the playoffs, basically.

SPEAKER_13: 16:15

But actually, you got a team that you supported promoted.

SPEAKER_01: 16:19

So uh, but it was an extremely unlikely event.

SPEAKER_13: 16:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:23

You can see her beginning to sweat the more they got closer to promotion. So I think she was looking for a get-out clause and found it in the playoffs.

SPEAKER_13: 16:29

Be careful what you wish for, because it can become true.

SPEAKER_01: 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_13: 16:33

So you said there that you met on the Times Education supplement, and obviously education was a massive part of Dawn's life, and actually, anyone that knows her knew that she didn't take any prisoners, and she can be quite blunt and she was quite passionate about what education should look like. Is that something you kind of saw in her as well?

SPEAKER_01: 16:52

Yeah, very much so. I like it. But what I found it was she had no ego and everything was to do with her integrity. So education was a passion, but from a complete point of view, wanting the absolute best for everybody. And I saw it at home because she lived and breathed it for 24 years. I taught and switched off. Dawn taught, came home, and went on three screens of computer to look up research, to talk to people. It was a hobby, it was her absolute love. And away from education, she was quite private and quite quiet, but she was very determined and very decisive. And it was like a smaller scale in real what I call in real life of her persona in the classroom. But both Dawn and I, our classroom personas were largely constructed because privately we weren't like that at all. So at home she was much more relaxed, not so intense. But whenever education came along, she was on it. When I got her ashes back, I half expected to see the word teacher written on each single flake of ash. Because it kind of defined her for 24 years.

unknown: 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:56

To the point that it was doing her no good. And I mean, the last six months of her life was the happiest she'd been because I was in a position due to retirement and I lost my mother. And I said, look, you know, the last year of teaching, she was so stressed for many reasons. But I said, Why don't you just gear it down a bit, go part-time, start your own business? I I can cover, if it doesn't work, I can cover stuff. And she absolutely loved it. And you know, she was running a fantastic team for oak and oak, she was writing stuff for teach first. She was having lunch with friends in school time, as she used to rather guiltily call it. Yes! And Dawn was beautifully random, she just took up the hobby of bell ringing and was doing really well at it. And you know, she came home one day and said, I'm gonna join the bell-ringing class in the village, and I said, Fine! You know, another thing that Dawn's just randomly chosen to do. She turned out to be really good at it, and rather touchingly, they do appeal for the dead. It's a medieval thing where they do a a ringing of the bell for every year of the person who's died, and they're gonna be doing that in the village at some point when I can face them doing it because I'll hear it, so they're waiting for me to say it's okay. But at the moment I can't put myself through that and putting myself through everything else at the moment. So But I thought that was rather lovely. But she used to practice bell ringing on the car as a passenger, which was hilarious. Because she'd just be moving her hands up and down. Without bells. Yeah, without bells, just moving her hands up and down to get the rhythm of it. I hope other drivers didn't think she was making obscene gestures to them, but which you know she may well have been. But when Dawn committed to something, it was like 100%, it was like there's no mess in. Yeah. So yeah, so that was quite quite a nice thing to take. But you know, it's it it's it's a real tragedy. And it's a real tragedy for her because she was flowering and blooming and blossoming, and then it all got cut off.

unknown: 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:36

She didn't leave anything out there. I said to my friends, you know, my one consolation is Dawn lived her life.

SPEAKER_02: 19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:41

You know, she went travelling with friends, she went travelling on her own. I mean, one Christmas she she took a truck down to Africa and then travelled across Australia and then photographed me up on Christmas Day, it's Christmas Eve saying, Can you pick me up tomorrow flying back? That was before we lived together. So she did two months of travelling on her own.

unknown: 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:56

Because she wanted to, and she went fishing around the world. That was the other one of her other joys that people didn't know. She introduced me to fishing, she loved fishing. She had a little collapsible rod she used to take round the world with her, and I'd get random pictures of her hauling these fish out and putting them in front of a camera. So we went carp fishing together, but you know, unstereotypically, she got me into fishing.

SPEAKER_03: 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:18

And that was like a little passion she had for quite a long time.

SPEAKER_03: 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:22

So those kind of private things people don't really see.

SPEAKER_03: 20:24

No.

SPEAKER_01: 20:25

Because everything education's really in your face, but but but out of education. Dawn had lots of quirky things she loved doing.

SPEAKER_13: 20:31

Yeah. And actually she said, did she say to you that there was a phrase you used when we were talking about how she described your different approaches to teaching?

SPEAKER_01: 20:40

Yeah, well, yeah, the the brief summary would be, um, I thought she was a Stalinist control freak, and she thought was an unstructured anarchist. I think partly philosophically, I think Dawn is very much lessons are curricular time to get achievement up in exams. Yes. Whereas my view was, yes, that's right, but I also like a pastoral element of my lessons, so there'll be stuff that we do that is nothing to do with learning stuff. Um, it might just be, you know, perish the thought, just fun. Or it may be I want them to work together on something, not because I'm particularly interested in the academic outcome, but because I think these kids need to work together on something pastorally.

SPEAKER_05: 21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:20

Whereas Dawn was like, no, it's it's curricular development and stuff, but it ended up working for us, so so it wasn't all bad.

SPEAKER_13: 21:26

Tell me that you never used cahoot in your lesson.

SPEAKER_01: 21:29

I never used Kahoot, I hate Kahoot. I hate Kahoot. No, no cahoot for me.

SPEAKER_13: 21:33

You agree on that. And there was a point actually in which she was your boss.

SPEAKER_01: 21:37

Yeah, yeah. Well, what happened was uh last I retired, I've had more comebacks than Frank Sinatra. I've retired twice.

SPEAKER_03: 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:44

The last time Dawn had a very, very good teacher in her only department teacher, go on maternity, and there was she couldn't find anyone to cover. And she ended up getting a supply teacher for three days, but had two days with no one. So I said to her, Show me the bus or three. Myself under it. So I then worked to her for two days a week for two terms. And it was just as well because the other guy, having done six weeks on three days a week, clearly had another job to go to and just walked out.

SPEAKER_03: 22:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 22:11

And Dawn was then left having to manipulate three days with cover and supply, and I did the other two days. In effect, it was self-defence for me because she was so stressed at home trying to sort it out. It was easier for me to go and work for her to help her ease the stress than sit at home with her, like with her head in her hands, like trying to work it out to recover all the lessons. And I knew exactly what my role was. My role was to do as I was told.

SPEAKER_03: 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:34

So I did as I was told. But I did sneak in some of my stuff, which you know, which amused Dawn. And it and it was good, it worked, it worked. But it worked because you know, in that situation, one of us has to say, you tell me what to do.

SPEAKER_02: 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:48

Because otherwise it just wouldn't work. It'd be like, you know, because we both ended up as writers, as ASTs, as working bits and pieces of consultancy. And, you know, we didn't really talk education at home because my job at home was to listen to Dawn.

SPEAKER_03: 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:04

Listen to her with her ideas to help her process her ideas. So when we ever walked around the village, because she hated walking with a passion, but she felt she had to exercise. But she would talk through all her ideas with me, and my job was to filter and listen and only offer any kind of uh suggestions if she asked. And the other time was to listen, was if she had to come home, which she often did, and rant and rave about education. Then I would sit here for an hour, having cooked her dinner, and just let a vent. So if we were ever given in a situation where you're gonna work together, but you two talk about how it's gonna go, it would explode.

SPEAKER_03: 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:37

So one of us would say, look, you run this or I'll run this, and then I'll do what you want. Otherwise, it would not have worked.

unknown: 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_13: 23:43

It was fun. Well, it feels like you've cracked relationships. I think that might need to be your next book, is there? How to crack relationships.

SPEAKER_01: 23:52

Well, it's fairly easy. You should you have to listen to your partner.

SPEAKER_13: 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:56

And for God's sake, don't offer solutions if you're not asked enough.

SPEAKER_13: 23:59

No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. It feels simple, but you'll be surprised how many people can't get that. Really? Yeah, you'll be surprised. What was your subject, Roy? History. History.

SPEAKER_01: 24:09

Well, history and English and history and politics, and at the end of the day, anything other than people wanting me to teach at all, for example.

unknown: 24:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 24:17

I did some supply work as well at a school where I'd been head of history. And I was doing for a while I was doing chemistry and maths and music, and I said, This is stupid. Let's rotate you into history, English, and geography covers, because you know, you're just sitting there like a Muppet. Yeah. When you can't actually do stuff. So I've been thinking, I've been thinking in September, I mean, I need to reconnect with the world because at the moment I'm very wounded.

SPEAKER_02: 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:38

And everything's very isolating. And I think if I could get a day supply in one of the schools I used to work at just to reconnect with people, because I can feel myself withdrawing a bit from the world.

SPEAKER_02: 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:49

Because it's not a nice place at the moment.

SPEAKER_02: 24:51

No.

SPEAKER_01: 24:52

Um, so I might go back, I might come out of retirement for the third time and uh and see, but we'll see.

unknown: 24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_13: 24:58

Yeah. And I just want to take this time because you know I can tell how difficult this is and how much pain you're in. And you know, you know how much the community loved dawn and that there's a lot of people crying with you, but your grief is so much worse, and you know, there's nothing we can say that makes things better. You know, we don't really understand what you're going through. But while she was in hospital, I've got messages from not only her students, but parents of her students. You know, the impact that she had on the world, not the impact she had on your world, that was very different.

SPEAKER_01: 25:29

I mean, she was she was I mean I I've summed it up to friends. She was a bright star in the RE world.

SPEAKER_13: 25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:34

But she was my world.

SPEAKER_03: 25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:36

And my world is now gone. And that makes everything very, very difficult.

SPEAKER_13: 25:41

There's an injustice to it that is is very difficult to kind of work through, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 25:46

Well, as the world's most boring driver, yeah. You know, I had a speeding ticket 17 years ago, and I think she last mentioned it about two months before she died. You know. So whenever I suggested perhaps she could speed up a little, I just got speeding ticket.

SPEAKER_03: 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:01

And to have her be killed in a car crash is is just the blackest of irony.

SPEAKER_13: 26:07

Yeah. It's you know, I think however somebody dies, there's always a sadness. But when it's something that that is unjust and that quickly with no warning.

SPEAKER_01: 26:17

And it was absolutely it was brutal.

SPEAKER_13: 26:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:20

And it was absolutely just a case of wrong place, wrong time.

SPEAKER_13: 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_13: 26:27

You know, and there's there's no way of making sense of it really.

SPEAKER_01: 26:30

And it's No, I mean people don't know what to say or do, and I under I say, look, there's nothing you can say or do. No. So please don't upset yourself too much about not being able to say or do stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 26:39

No.

SPEAKER_01: 26:40

And and I say don't make sense of it, because that will drive you in circles. It just happened.

SPEAKER_02: 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:45

And the reality has shifted from this life to this new reality.

SPEAKER_02: 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:50

And it's the way I I I cope with it. I don't play any games of what if or I just say, well, my reality has changed and this is what I've got to get to grips with. And also I think other people maybe find it a bit more difficult because people have said it's like a nightmare and stuff like that. And I said, well, it's not a nightmare, is it? It's real.

SPEAKER_03: 27:06

It's real.

SPEAKER_01: 27:07

It's real. And and you have to just try and find a navigation through it. But you know, she was my pole star and my pole star's gone out, so I don't really know my directions.

SPEAKER_13: 27:18

Yeah, yeah. And when we were talking earlier, you know, that sort of impact that she had, you mentioned the Year Eleven Leavers assembly.

SPEAKER_01: 27:26

Yes. Um it was after she died her Year 11 levers in her last school. They showed a picture of Dawn on the screen and um they all started applauding. So that was uh lovely to hear, and very difficult, as you can probably tell from my voice. The school has also instituted the Dawn Cox Award for pupil who most reflect her values and standards and qualities.

SPEAKER_02: 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:53

And I'll be presenting it in July. Oh so it's lovely. But as you can tell, it's raw.

SPEAKER_03: 28:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_13: 28:07

Yeah, Roy, we understand. We don't actually understand.

SPEAKER_01: 28:11

We don't, you know, we we we can't imagine and the situation is I've said to people, you you try and imagine it because you see it on the telly or you see it in a film. But when it happens, it is literally unimaginable.

SPEAKER_03: 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:22

There is no way I could even begin to describe you what this is like.

SPEAKER_03: 28:27

No.

SPEAKER_01: 28:28

Because it's just Yeah, it's just you can't. It's just there's nothing you can say. There's no way you can put into words what the situation is like.

SPEAKER_13: 28:37

No, no, absolutely not. And actually it's interesting because I think what that Dawn Cox Award does is it makes you realise just how much integrity she had, that she never was anything other than who she was. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:51

Talk without ego, advise without ego, and was absolute integrity.

SPEAKER_13: 28:58

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's important because it meant that she wasn't worried about what people thought about her in a way that meant that she went against her own integrity. Of course, she she's human, so of course she you know didn't want to upset anybody, but actually the integrity came first, and I think that's a very selfless thing to do.

SPEAKER_01: 29:16

Yes, I mean there was times at home where she'd come home upset because she felt she'd upset people.

SPEAKER_03: 29:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:21

But it didn't stop her with the integrity she had is saying the awkward questions are all the uncomfortable truths.

SPEAKER_03: 29:27

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 29:28

People may not believe it because she was so firm and so decisive. It did have a cost to her privately.

SPEAKER_13: 29:36

Yeah. And I think, you know, I think but actually, you know, a lot of us, that's what we loved about her, and that's what one of the many things we're gonna miss about her is that person that does say the awkward questions and does challenge things, and you know, because we understood that it came from a place of absolute passion for teaching the best RE that was possible.

unknown: 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_13: 29:57

And I think that's gonna miss. You mentioned earlier that she repeatedly mentions your speeding ticket from 17 years ago, and that's not the other thing she won't let you forget. So tell us the mastermind story.

SPEAKER_01: 30:10

Yeah, I was on Mastermind all about 2009 or something, and um, I got a question on RE wrong about how many times does a Muslim pray. So um obviously the fact that I got 15 on my specialist subjects on Basil Rathbone's Sherlock Holmes meant nothing. But I think once every six or seven weeks in the intervening 24 years or something, or whatever how many years it is, she brought it up. So, yeah. So the speeding ticket and getting a Muslim prayer question wrong with haunted me. Because we've got the speeding ticket about 2007, so most of our relationship has been blighted by a speeding ticket and getting the mastermind question wrong. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_13: 30:53

But what's so lovely is that you know, I we were talking about this earlier. I think if Dawn had been on Mastermind and got that question, she would have questioned the question.

SPEAKER_01: 30:59

Yeah, she would have said would you have said Sunny or sheer?

SPEAKER_13: 31:02

Because they break for time today.

SPEAKER_01: 31:04

I could see her wasting her entire two minutes on her personal topic arguing with the questioner about the terms of reference of the question and getting one.

unknown: 31:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 31:14

But no, it was good for it was good fun. She actually put me up for it, so she filled in the forms and told me I was going on the show. So I was going to be put up to go on the show.

SPEAKER_13: 31:23

So yeah. And actually, you did brilliantly well.

SPEAKER_01: 31:27

I really enjoyed it actually, yeah. It was good, it was good fun.

SPEAKER_13: 31:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One thing uh people listening, if you're a teacher, that you'll be able to relate to is a love of bargains and a love of stationery. So, what stationary other bargains have you found hidden away in your garage?

SPEAKER_01: 31:43

To say Dawn loved a bargain, she called it bear hunting. Uh that's B-E-A-R, to just be specific. Um, whenever we went to a supermarket or a shop, she'd go left and do bear hunting, and I'd go right and get the shop in. And it doesn't matter that we had, say, ten bags of dishwasher tablets. If she saw them on offer, well, I've got another ten bags. So the upshot of this is I've been clearing through all the garage now. I now have enough de-icer to last an ice age. Um I could probably do dishwasher loads for the entire village for five or ten years. And um there's just I found three A1 size boxes of brand new in-packaged stationery. But there's other things, I mean, she didn't like throwing anything away. So so amusingly, when I opened the cupboard the other day, I found a cardboard box full of old baking trays that I thought I'd throw it away, but she'd actually kept. So I won't go into too many details, but it's taken two skip loads to clear the garage.

unknown: 32:42

Gosh.

SPEAKER_13: 32:43

I like it. It's interesting because I just think that, you know, that probably comes down to her integrity in that she wants to make good decisions and you know the right decisions and not waste anything.

SPEAKER_01: 32:54

And she kept every handout for every course she'd ever been ever on or given since undergraduate.

SPEAKER_13: 33:00

Yeah. Yeah. So And she was, you know, she was so hungry for knowledge, you know, she was such her curiosity, she was, you know, whether it was about a person, whether it was about a place, whether it was about a moment in history, she had that inquisitiveness.

SPEAKER_01: 33:15

Well God, her office was full of handouts with little yellow stickers and poster notes on every single, every every single document, every single academic reference work, every single She read it because she wanted to know. And it was interesting because her travel, she loved travel, and it kind of dovetailed beautifully, because as you know, you went to Israel Israel with her.

SPEAKER_03: 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:35

Is that she travelled to places which had no religious interest to her at all because she just loved it, and every three or four years, because I don't travel very well, to put it mildly, but every three or four years, virtually at gunpoint, I'd go somewhere with her. But it was just such a joy because I it was lovely seeing her enjoying travel, but she loved me going with her because she knew it was at a cost to myself.

SPEAKER_03: 33:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:55

And we did some some nice Baltic stuff and bits and pieces. But to watch her travel, it was it was lovely because because she thrived.

SPEAKER_03: 34:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:04

And and and I think if Dawn travelled with you, I think you should view it as a privilege because Dawn's personal interactions with people she found difficult. So if she chose to travel with someone or if she chose to see someone often, it it's a sign that she's thought you were a friend.

SPEAKER_03: 34:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:25

Which which I think people need to know and take to heart that if Dawn actually reached out to you a few times or or wanted to see you or visited you or went on holiday with you, yeah, it was a sign from her that that you're okay.

SPEAKER_03: 34:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:40

Uh because the rest of the world has said before, but Dawn and I away from our teaching personas, the world is a very difficult place to be with.

unknown: 34:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:49

And and and her her travelling with someone like you would say to me, she she rated you.

SPEAKER_13: 34:56

Yeah. We had we had a very very special time in Israel, and there was there was four of us girls, so we'd sit at the back of the bus and you know, we would we would talk about everything, you know, we would talk about everything. And I think that that I really treasured that time because, you know, I'm only learning now really that Dawn found social situations difficult because actually in that moment it felt like she was in the most natural habitat ever. You know, and it was yeah, I feel very privileged, very privileged for lots of reasons to have gone to Israel. I mean, she she loved the country, you know, she had a you know, she really loved it. So seeing the the country through her eyes and listening to her stories of the time that she lived there and things like that was, you know, and talking about, yeah, you and how you met and you know, sharing stories was just was just incredible. And as I've said in the introduction, she she pushed a few boundaries. She she made she did made us do things that that weren't part of the tour because she noticed things and she researched things and she made life well how she wanted it. Yes. You know, she set her own path and and that was wonderful. Now, one thing you mentioned earlier is the cats. So currently, how many cats do you have? Only six.

SPEAKER_01: 36:13

Only six. The cats are my fault entirely. Um it's kind of love me, love my cats. I love cats. Dawn doesn't mind cats. And at one point we had four, and that was the limit. Um, that was my limit. Uh and we lost my two older cats died last year, and I had two cats, so there's a vacancy. But I've always wanted a puppy, so I'd negotiated a puppy, but actually I traded the puppy idea in because Dawn's niece rescued a cat that had some kittens and rehomed them, but then suddenly realised the mother cat's getting wider again and had another litter. So we rescued the rescue cat and her litter to here, because all my cats are rescue cats, and uh we kept four of them. And Dawn fell in love with them, frankly. Um she fell in love with Dawn particularly, who is one of their ginger cats, and um she used to say it was very handsome. It kind of breaks my heart a bit that she's not here to see them grow up. Yeah, it breaks my heart a lot. But in the end, I wore her down because she was she liked cats, and she largely tolerated my foibles of having so many, but in the end she fell in love with them.

SPEAKER_03: 37:16

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:17

But no, it's my fault, cats are my fault.

SPEAKER_13: 37:19

You know, she just she shared a lot of pictures of the little kitten, so it clearly was her love too. So you know, that's how you add it to her life.

SPEAKER_01: 37:29

Yeah, one of the last selfies she sent me uh was her with with Doyle looking at me on her lap. So it's kind of you know, I won her over in the end.

SPEAKER_13: 37:41

Yeah. You've spoken very openly about the grief and how brutal this is, and that there are no words to kind of describe it or to make anything better or to make sense of it. Is there anything else you want to kind of say about, you know, because there's a lot of people out there who will understand who have experienced loss, who have experienced grief that kind of explains your kind of experience through this?

SPEAKER_01: 38:06

It's it's almost indescribable, but I would say when people come to speak to you, they are mortified because they don't know what to say or do. And I think one of the things I've been saying to people is look, I know you can't say or do anything, but thank you just for contacting me or reaching out or stopping me in the street. I mean, all my neighbours are very old and they're all devastated, and one of them couldn't even speak to me. As he walked me in the village, just put his hand on my shoulder and kept walking because he could not say anything. But that for me was enough.

SPEAKER_03: 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:41

I wouldn't wish this situation on my worst enemy or any or on anybody, and there's no right way to go through it. And it is something that is almost unendurable.

unknown: 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:54

But you have to endure it. You have to find a way through it. And everyone's way through it will be different. My way through it is every day I try and do one thing that's positive or or good. And this is my positive thing today talking to you. Because the rest of the day is just it's just really difficult because everything is dawn. So we lived in the same place for 15 years, so every path, every shop, every road everywhere I go, I went with dawn. So the absence of dawn is is almost unendurable.

SPEAKER_13: 39:32

Yeah. Yeah. And you say that the mornings are harder, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 39:36

Mornings are the hard I seem to I seem to reset to grief in the morning. So the first five or five hours of the day are really difficult.

SPEAKER_03: 39:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:45

And then I kind of stabilise a bit and I'm just very sad. Yeah and then I go to bed.

SPEAKER_13: 39:52

Yeah. It's um I I I I feel so honoured to have this chat with you. I feel so privileged to be able to hear a love that is so beautiful and so honest and you know, very s and so unique to you guys. And, you know, that we you know, there is nothing we can say, and you know, we want to send out as much love as we can to you, you know, and for Dawn, she will be greatly missed. She leaves a legacy that's much more than just education, although her contribution to education is, you know, immeasurable. But just for everyone who knew her, she made their life better. Yes. Um, and you know, we loved her very much. Um, because I think this is just maybe a bit sorry, I'm just hold on, let me just compose myself.

SPEAKER_01: 40:48

To help you see a different light on Dawn a little bit, we we we ended up being together so long, we used to talk in shorthand. And our two favourite phrases, which I will share with your listeners, were AYF, which got shortened to AY, which meant all your fault. Or the other one was Y J, which meant your job. And and anyone watching us walk down the street would n would hear us talking in this shorthand.

SPEAKER_03: 41:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:19

So they're very useful phrases to use with your partner. A Y and Y J. All your fault and your job.

SPEAKER_13: 41:26

You know, so I think you know, Dawn was definitely somebody that you knew where you stood with her at all moments, you know, and I think that and she's a very efficient person, so that kind of summarizes her. One thing I did want to mention, because it's something we talked about, and I think it would just be helpful to kind of people to reflect on this. Because Dawn was so well known throughout the community, the outpouring of messages on social media, while it sometimes were comforting, there was an element of overwhelm.

SPEAKER_05: 41:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 42:09

Yeah, it it was it was overwhelming. In a good way, in some ways, because I saw how much love there was for her, none of which she would have believed. She thought they were writing about someone else.

SPEAKER_02: 42:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:22

But it was also incessant, and and at a time of private grief, it was a very public thing. So and my phone was kept overloading and overloading with messages and and stuff. And I think I think it's it was a beautiful thing, but some of the people posting only knew Dawn tangentially, and there was a lot of kind of stuff that I thought, we don't really know her. It's lovely you think this, but maybe maybe keep it to yourself rather than publish something that makes you look like you are in her orbit when you really weren't. And there was one or two things that were were quite difficult because Dawn felt rightly or wrongly that there are one or two people in the community who didn't like her and were actively stopping her and blocking her. And when they posted tributes, I did I did did have a moment where I think, well it's a lovely tribute, but I'm not sure it's what you actually thought of Dawn. But I think for 95% of the posts, I I it was it was overwhelmingly beautiful, but it was also simply overwhelming because all those expressions were lovely, but for me it's a private death and a private grief and it it keeps the wound open.

SPEAKER_03: 43:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:37

Um and you know, so I would I would say to people think before you put stuff on social media, if you if you feel something about someone, there's no necessarily need to share it.

SPEAKER_02: 43:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:51

Um and that's all I can say really.

SPEAKER_13: 43:56

Yeah. And I you know, I really you know it w I had to come off because I i it it's that thing, isn't it, that you you can't control that space and actually when you're grieving, you do need to pick and choose when you grieve and how much you grieve. And actually that took that that choice away from you quite often. And there was a I don't know if disingenuous is the right word, but there was a disconnect between things that people were saying and doing in real life and things that they were saying about her on social media. You know, and I think that's it especially when privacy and integrity was so much a part of who Dawn was that actually if you knew Dawn and loved her, those two things would have motivated what you said and what you did.

SPEAKER_01: 44:42

Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_13: 44:44

You know, and that's not to say that there weren't some comforting and beautiful and wonderful things written which you know we've shared today.

SPEAKER_01: 44:49

Oh, there was there was thousands of genuine and very comfy ones.

SPEAKER_13: 44:54

Wait, just anything you want to say just as we close, really, just a final thought you want to leave people with.

SPEAKER_01: 45:01

Not much I can say really. Um I think the programme's on honour, to be on. For her. Um My life was going in one direction with Dawn. And now it's gone another.

SPEAKER_03: 45:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 45:18

I don't quite know how I'm gonna navigate it, but for her sake I will navigate it.

SPEAKER_13: 45:26

Yeah. Yeah. Because you can imagine what she'd be saying if she could speak to you right now.

SPEAKER_01: 45:32

She'd on with it.

SPEAKER_13: 45:34

Yeah. And you know, you you know, from what I know of grief, it's not something you get over, you know, and it changes over time, I think. I think there's days where it's gonna be less raw, but I don't think it goes, and I think this is just I hope so.

SPEAKER_01: 45:51

I hope so, because at the moment everything is simply sad.

SPEAKER_13: 45:56

Yeah. Yeah, it is. You know, and I hope that you know how valued she was, and you know that there are there are there are people out there who are better people because of her, and that RE is better because of her.

SPEAKER_01: 46:14

She just wanted every people to be the best version of themselves, and she wanted every colleague to be the best teacher they could be.

SPEAKER_13: 46:21

Yeah, yeah, she did. And I think that's that that's the the legacy she'll leave is that you know, I know we've I've spoken to people about, you know, we're gonna fight for this on behalf of Dawn, you know, she's gonna continue to make RV better because she's inspired so many people. But also, you know, there are people out there who were very lucky enough to call her friends, and you know, there's a lot more than just education that that she's gonna be missed for. But um, but thank you so much for agreeing to talk, to being so open.

SPEAKER_01: 46:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_13: 46:51

You know, this is a privilege to be able to have this conversation. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 46:55

Thank you very much for having me on.

SPEAKER_13: 46:56

So I'm just gonna read some messages now and then we're gonna listen to some voice notes of people that knew Dawn. And this is from Sooners, an RE teacher, about to write some rambling thoughts about the hugely missed Tour de Force, the lovely Dawn Cox. I have been fortunate to have met Dawn a few times, most recently at the Somerset RE Symposium, where Dawn was giving the keynote address Re All Things RE. I felt like a fangirl when she sat at our table and chatted and laughed throughout the day. The thing about Dawn was that she cut through the noise. She challenged, asked why, and made you focus on the main thing. Dawn was not a fan of faddy initiatives, and in essence, her approach to RE, and I guess teaching generally, was to know your subject, teach it well, focus on the main thing, and teach it right the first time. I loved blogs on revision, clear and oh so right. Dawn was sharp of wit and intellect, humble and kind, generous with her time and expertise. I miss her hugely, and in the mad world of education, we should all be more Dawn. And this message is from Laura Passmore, and she says, I first met Dawn virtually in 2015 when we tweeted, retweeted, and shared information relevant to RE. We moved to messaging each other, meeting at conferences, and sharing ideas. I remember sitting at breakfast and lunch with Dawn and Mary Myatt on a Saturday conference talking about everything and nothing. Dawn and I both presented at that London RE hub and giggled over silly mistakes. Dawn always kept up with movements in technology. Several years ago, the Save RE Google Drive was deleted by a member. Dawn managed to negotiate getting access back and transfer the ownership to another account. She maintained this from then and locked it down so it could not be lost again. She might have not been everyone's cup of tea, but I was grateful for her support, advice and friendship. I miss her and the contribution she made to RE teaching. And this message is from Natalie Minton. I began working with Dawn only a short time ago, but the impact that she has had on me both personally and professionally will last for a lifetime. Dawn was someone who encouraged me to be brave and confident in my work and always championed me. She also inspired these qualities in me in other areas of my life, with her knowledge, passion, and confidence inspiring me to step out of my comfort zone in different ways. Beyond our conversations about RE, I love to have a good chat with Dawn about all sorts of things from eyebrows to hearing of her adventurous travels. I feel very privileged to have met Dawn and I will miss her kindness, humor, and our random chats. And this is from Simon Soleil. Dawn was more than just an RE teacher. She was a guide, a mentor, an author, a friend, and a light to so many. Dawn would always strive for the betterment of our subject and wouldn't settle for anything less. She was always one step ahead of the game. I was always in awe of her passion and knowledge, which made me want more for my subject too. I will never forget her friendship, as she was there for me many times through my battle with cancer. I miss her so much. There aren't many people like Dawn. She was certainly one of a kind. She will be sorely missed by all who knew her and were lucky enough to have been part of her life.

SPEAKER_06: 50:19

What can I say about Dawn that hasn't been said or tweeted or written about in the last couple of months? Known Dawn for about seven years. First through Facebook, and I worked with the Save RE Facebook group and the Google Drive, and then through coming into contact with her through the examinations side of things. Always talking about how the best way to write a 12-mark answer. And then getting to know her personally. First meeting her face to face at the Natchez Symposium, having a week together, talking about the idea of teaching and writing new schemes and new lessons at the Hill Summer School. And then speaking together at different conferences. The advice that she used to send me on Monday morning. I'll miss that. I miss you do. Thank you.

SPEAKER_09: 51:40

Well, where to begin when you are thinking about the phenomenon that was Dawn. Bright and brilliant in all things Ari, and an intellectual inspirer and wise with her wits. Dawn had a great verb for life and found humour in the everyday aspects of it. Who would have known that the day we recently spent together in Manchester would now be one of many cherished memories? I can still hear her laughter at my mistaken identification of a speaker at the events we both attended. The keynote speaker was not, as it transpired, a famous Australian actor. Humble to the end, Dawn was more than a fantastic member of hashtag teamre. Dawn was a friend.

SPEAKER_08: 52:25

The legend that has always been Dawn Cox, I first came across through her blogs. And I was, as I still am, an RE advisor in the East End of London, but I'd worked a long time in Essex, and Dawn was also a teacher up in Essex. And I got in touch with her a few times to see if I could share things or use things in network meetings as a talking point for secondary RE teachers. And so I became a bit of a fan. Eventually we got to meet and we really got on. And the reason we got on was because Dawn was just passionate about really high-quality RE, and so was I. And we shared many similar frustrations and experiences of teaching in a secondary school, becoming a very popular department and not having enough staff and all of those things. And then it was really lovely to see her writing develop and then her begin to sort of champion changes that she felt were important for her subject. And I think as well, then when she published books, Dawn became quite a regular at coming to my secondary RE network meetings. She came many times over many years and led inputs and reflections on different topics and ideas that we were looking at. And she was always excellent. She always met her deadlines, she went above and beyond at all times. And so three years ago, when I was appointed to be the lead director of RE Hubs, it was a real honour to be able to invite Dawn to be part of the team that helped me curate and make our website, but also think about our social media, RE jobs, and all sorts of things. And she was an excellent strategic thinker, never shy from saying what she was thinking, but always open to hearing and listening to others and thinking as a team, working well together as a team. She was a delight, and as with everyone else who knew her, it's a total shock that she's not here now, and in some ways I think I'm still a little bit in denial about that. Yeah. And it makes me sad every time I think about that she's not here. But I think what we have is so many of her words and so many of her ideas and so many of the good things that she's done, that won't go away, and that's not going to be lost. And I think about the thousands of young people's lives that she's touched, and that's a living, growing legacy, hopefully making a positive difference in this world. So she will be greatly missed and obviously gone far too soon. And for her family and her loved ones, that just is so horrendous. There's no words for it, is there? But we love her, we continue to honour her memory, and I'm so glad that she was a colleague and a friend of mine.

SPEAKER_13: 56:16

So I'm here with Katie Freeman, who is the chair of Natural National Association of Teachers of RE, but also a friend of Dawn. Katie, do you want to just start by saying how and when you first met Dawn?

SPEAKER_00: 56:27

Yeah, so I first met Dawn, I don't know, I think it must be like Deborah will probably be able to tell you, it's probably like 12 to 15 years ago, and we were some of the first RE SLEs, and I believe that the story goes that Deborah was trying to find out who'd been given an SLE status. So she did her famous freedom of information request, and we all got these emails that were quite bizarre saying, if you have this status, you need to email back immediately, which I did, and then I ended up going on a train to London, which is very unlike me, and it was before the days I was involved in Natre, and was in a building that was right next to where they filmed The Apprentice. Went up in this glass like elevator, I think, and I think it was a city building, and there were four or five of us in there that were all RE SLEs, and I think I was the only primary one.

SPEAKER_13: 57:17

You just want to say what SLEs are.

SPEAKER_00: 57:20

So senior leader of education. So it was me, Dawn, Andy Lewis, Chris Giles, um, and a guy called Ben Davis as well. And we ended up in this room with Deborah having some coaching and mentoring advice and talking about leadership in RE. And Dawn and I ended up getting paired with each other for various parts of this day and just got chatting and just kind of instantly just became friends, which was yeah, it was amazing. I think in life you sometimes meet people who you're supposed to be friends with, and then your like life start kind of mixing in with each other, so you then start seeing each other at other events and stuff, and your friendship kind of grows from there.

SPEAKER_13: 57:57

So just tell us then some of those fond memories you've had over the last sort of 12 to 15 years, and any funny stories or anything like that might be nice.

SPEAKER_00: 58:06

I think that both Dawn and I kind of got thrown into this world of RE, and I feel like she's always been much more um experienced and ready for things than I was, and I was quite nervous, especially as a primary teacher, kind of going into this national world. But Dawn was always sort of like the cheerleader in the background. So whenever I ran a session or whenever I spoke at anything, she would always be there with like a message, or she'd come over and give me a hug and be like, Oh, you've done so well. And we always kind of had that shared experience of going on the journey together. And I think you know, there's been things like my first Hellum St. Gabriel's concert, uh concert, I was gonna say conference back in the day when I had to do my first kind of workshop session, and I co-led one with Neil McCain, and I remember her just like coming down and saying, Oh, I'm so proud of you, and like she introduced me to lots of people because she was always really well sort of networked with other people, and then just kind of conference after conference, we saw each other, and it would always just be a bit of a catch-up. But I love the fact that when Dawn texted you and said, Let's chat on the phone, you knew you were in for a two or three hour conversation, and you'd be like making tea throughout, and then you'd be talking, like we kind of would go from like talking about like our personal lives and all these things, and she would tell me all about her cats and her travels and things, and we'd go in from that, and then she was like, What I was thinking about RE was, and then we'd have this really in-depth conversation about RE. And I remember that when I was nominated as chair, and I'll probably get into trouble for admitting this. I was told not to tell anybody at all, and they were gonna reveal it strictly RE. And I told Dawn, so she was the only person outside of the Isaac who knew because I knew that she would keep it absolutely confidential, which she did. Um, and I was so nervous about doing my chair-elect speech, and it was during COVID. And she was texting me all of the way through, and she was like, It's nearly you, it's gonna be you. I'm so proud of you, and just was really encouraging. I think like we went off to Israel, which obviously we did the trip with you. I remember getting into trouble every night because Kevin said he could just hear us talking about ridiculous things until like gone midnight. We'd just keep talking and talking and talking. Just her sense of humour and the laughs and her kindness. The fact she saved me from a pickpocket as well on the streets of Jerusalem. This man tried to unzip my bag and she whacked his hand out the way and told him no in her sternist teacher voice. Um yeah, just things like that. I think you know, we can all talk about how brilliant Dawn was as an RE practitioner. But for me, she was just a brilliant friend that could kind of pick up on those things of, oh, we're feeling a bit tired today, we're feeling a bit sad today. And she would kind of have a bit of an encouraging chat with you and just kind of work out how it was, what she could do to help you. And if you called Dawn, she was never too busy for you either. And I think that's a real gift in a friendship. So yeah, lots of things to say.

SPEAKER_13: 1:00:55

The last question I was going to ask you, but I think you've kind of answered it already, was just the qualities that you loved about her as a friend.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:02

Yeah, I think that she was such a brilliant academic, and all of her thinking about RE was so in-depth. But I think what she was really talented at was kind of honing in on those skills that other people had, and she could have a conversation with them at their correct level. So that could be someone with a PhD and she'd be talking really in-depth with them about RE, but then also talking to somebody who was a classroom teacher, changing her language and bringing them in on the conversation so that they really felt valued. I remember for my 40th birthday last year, I sent round some invitations and I texted her and said, I know it's a really long way to come. You don't have to come all the way down here. She's like, No, no, no, it's fine. I'm gonna stop and see Deborah on the way. And Deborah and I were like, She's coming to Plymouth via Hampshire. Does she really know where Plymouth was? And it got to about lunchtime, and Deborah was going to her, Dawn, you really need to get on the road. And she she didn't know exactly where it was, and she sort of arrived, and then I introduced her to all my like friends and family, and there was a group of RE people there that she was talking to, and she came over to me at one point and said, Katie, your middle name is Mary, isn't it? And I was like, No, Dawn, it's not Mary. And she's like, No, Katie, your middle name, it needs to be Mary, and I was like, No. She's like, what about other M names? Is it like Marie or something like that? Could you take an M name? And I was like, No, no, no, it's not anything with an M. Like, my middle name's Rebecca. She's like, Oh no, she was like, This is really awkward. And I was like, Why is it really awkward? She's like, open your birthday present and you'll see. And I was like, right, okay. She's like, but do it in a minute, do it in a minute. And then she spent around an hour trying to convince my family and my wider friendship circle that my middle name was in fact Mary, including my mum. My mum was like, no, no, no, it's definitely Rebecca. And then she's like, right, open your present. And she'd she was always a bargain hunter, so she would always turn up at like um an RE conference with a pack of pens and stuff that were a really good deal and she thought would suit you. So she she'd got me this notebook, which was if anybody knows me, you know, I love a bit of glitter and I love Disney. So she'd got me a glittery notebook with a mini mouse on the front of it with the initial M. We spent a long time texting about how hilarious this was after my birthday. And she said, You can tell everybody that I'm that silly friend who got you a notebook with the wrong initial. And I was like, This is the best story I'm gonna tell randomly to people, and it just really made me laugh, made my family laugh. And I think that was what Dawn was so talented at. She could have these really in-depth conversations, but she was just a beautiful friend who really valued listening to other people and just could really make other people laugh. Um, and I know my little niece, she's eight, and she met Dawn at my birthday, and she absolutely adored her. And she was like talking to her and showing her a little digital camera and stuff. And I think you know that was what was so lovely about Dawn is she just invested time in people and she really cared about people. It wasn't just about being polite, it was really wanting to get to the heart and the bottom of who they were and what made them tick. And that might have been RE, but it might have been something else, and she valued them for who they were and what they did. And yeah, I just really miss that. I think friends like Dawn once in a lifetime, and I'm grateful that I got that time with her.

SPEAKER_10: 1:04:26

Hi, it's Nikki McGee with my memories of Dawn Cox, my very dear friend Dawn Cox. Like many of us, I see Dawn as the Queen of RE, a reputation really, really well deserved because I can't imagine there's an RE teacher anywhere that hasn't used a book or a blog that she has written to help make themselves a better teacher. I use her work and ideas every single day and will continue to do so. I was always amused by how she was aware of this Queen of RE reputation, but also just a bit mortified by it all. It was all a bit embarrassing. And I recorded a gif of myself rolling my eyes. And if I was ever at an event where Dawn's name was mentioned, I would send her the eye roll gif. And she actually got really good sometimes at sending it to me before I had chance to send it to her. And back in the day, I will admit I found Dawn a bit scary. And I told her this, and she roared with laughter, and she said to me that we were like two peas in a pod, except I was the nicer version of her. That's absolutely not true at all. And the thing I'd love to share about Dawn that might not be so quite widely known is what a great friend and kind and thoughtful person she was. We were a few years ago meant to be going on a cruise. Like an RE teacher event cruise around the Middle East and had cancel because of my cancer diagnosis. And I was gutted, and she was so kind and said to me, Don't worry, we'll do it again in the future. And um I'm gutted that we will never get to go on that trip together and have those late nights of sort of laughter and ari geekery. And she was such a good friend throughout my cancer treatment and those really, really dark days. She checked in with me almost every single day. And she was someone that I could do dark humour with, I could rant at, or that I could be a bit vulnerable with. And I'm so grateful for her because she was one of the women that got me through those dark days. And I wish that I'd have had a chance to repay that thoughtfulness and that kindness. And so Dawn's legacy with me is being a bit braver, asking the questions that everybody's avoiding, but we really need to voice and bring out in the open. But I also want to be as good a friend to my friends as she was to me, and be as kind and thoughtful. And I wish I'd let Dawn know how much she meant to me. I think she did know. But going forward, I'm gonna let all my friends know how important they are to me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_12: 1:07:30

So my name's Rachel, and I've been friends with Dawn for I think for around about ten years. And can you sort of describe what your friendship was like with Dawn? So we used to meet up, talk loads, put the worlds to right, laugh a lot, eat a lot, shop a lot. I think that's how I describe our friendship.

SPEAKER_13: 1:07:59

And is there any sort of standout moments or standout stories from that 10-year friendship?

SPEAKER_12: 1:08:04

So we used to meet a lot in Norwich, and we used to really like to try out different restaurants. And one of our favourite things was to try out new types of food or new types of menus at restaurants. And we once found in the assembly rooms in Norwich that you could have an afternoon tea version of breakfast. So we decided to go there and have this breakfast, morning time kind of afternoon tea, and it was so huge that it took us nearly four hours to eat it. And even then, we had to leave with boxes of this food. It was absolutely amazing, but we were there for four hours and we still had we couldn't eat anything for the rest of the day. We were so full of this meal. I think it was the best place we've eaten. We tried many other places as well, but that in particular really stood out. I mean, as I say, we had to move in the end because somebody else needed our table for afternoon tea. But we had a wonderful, wonderful time there eating our huge amount of breakfast for that long and also chatting constantly the whole time we were there, of course.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_12: 1:09:14

So that was one of our favourite things that we used to do. But we also used to enjoy because I love books, so we used to spend a lot of time searching out secondhand bookshops, going into charity shops and seeing really good finds that we could get from these charity shops. But in addition, she used to introduce me to clothes, but we were only allowed to shop in certain places when there was a sale on. So she really liked Fat Face and Sea Salt, but we could only go there if there was a sale on when we went shopping. So that was something else we used to do. As well as exploring Norwich, so I was really good at getting lost. So many times we got lost as we explored the wider areas of Norwich, because I'm quite good at that.

SPEAKER_13: 1:09:55

Oh, I love that, Rachel, and it's you know, something that's come through a lot she loves a bargain.

SPEAKER_12: 1:10:03

Yeah, she really likes bargains.

SPEAKER_13: 1:10:05

But we both like bargains to be fair.

SPEAKER_12: 1:10:07

Is there anything else kind of you want to just share? Yeah, just a couple of other things. So when she first bought her camper van, she came over here where I live and we found this campsite for her to put her campervan in, and Roy stayed in the campsite for the day. Me and her went off and we decided to do one of the Faith Trails in Smetvik. We had such an amazing time on the Faith Trail. We spent a long time in one of the shops picking up artifacts that we could use in the classroom, but that was a really good day out that we had exploring different places of worship in Smetvik. We did do some RE things or some educational things. So we did a couple of courses together. So we decided to do an online course on assessment, another one on theories of learning. But we were supposed to meet up, I think it was like once every three weeks, just to discuss some of these questions we answered. But most of the time we were there for like three hours just chatting on Zoom, keep coming back in, just and we just talked about all kinds of stuff. We used to often forget about the courses that we were on. Yeah, because we just got chatting about all kinds of things as when we were on them. We did learn things together. And another one we did was we did a hermeneutics research project with Bob at Canterbury Child Church University. That was really good. But once again we spent a long time chatting. We used to often forget the doing part, the reason why we were there, as we caught up because we lived at different ends of the country, so we often used to find time to catch up. But yeah, as I say, a lot of our friendship involved food, chatting, and laughter. Even before the last Strictly, we met up the night before and stayed in the same hotel and then went out for dinner and had a whale of a time before Strictly the next day. So yeah, that was the main thing I'd say our friendship was food, laughter, and lots of chapters.

SPEAKER_13: 1:11:55

Is that Bob Bowie that you were talking about there? Yeah, Bob Bowie, yes, I and are you were you both then like the naughty kids in this in the class that Probably actually, yeah. Well I'd be allowed to sit next to each other because you talk too much.

SPEAKER_12: 1:12:06

Well, to be fair, we were very good when we were in the sessions. But when we were over lunch and beforehand and afterwards we spent a long time catching up. So we were good when we had to be, very good, but um around it, yeah, we used to do a lot of chatting. And do you think there's sort of any final thoughts that you'd just like to leave us with? She was just a really good, honest friend. That you it doesn't matter how long it was, the gap. I mean obviously we used to chat on the phone in between, um sometimes for a long time. But it didn't matter how long it was until we'd seen each other, as soon as we met each other again, it was like the time had been nothing, that we'd seen each other the day before. She was a really easy friendship, really good, and I you know I miss her terribly.

SPEAKER_13: 1:12:47

And it's interesting because actually her impression of her was that she found friendship really difficult. And what's coming through so much, actually, what great friendship she had, and what a good friend she was, and that she was so generous with her time and her care, and that she, you know, had a very strong sense of joy and fun and companionship. So, yeah, it's really lovely to get that sense of her from you. So, thank you.

SPEAKER_12: 1:13:14

Yeah, she was a good friend.