S15 E9: The One About My Barriers To Research

If you are like me and really struggle to engage in and with REsearch, or know someone who does, then listen to this episode.  I have left in parts I usually edit out to give you a sense at how vulnerable I was making this episode, and you will here at the end my leg bouncing with nerves.  I have ADHD, so I really struggle to read things, remember things and organise new information.  Listen to how Culham St Gabriel have helped me overcome my barriers to research and create some research on those barriers. I really hope it inspires you.

It might also give you an insight into the ADHD minds of your students and explain how the poor behaviour they present is masking an internal struggle they can't articuate.

If you want to find out more about the Culham St Gabriel Scholarship Leadership programme, then click on the link below.

https://www.cstg.org.uk/scholarship-programmes/leadership/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Okay, this is I don't think I've ever been quite as anxious about anything in my life. This is huge, and I've been trying to unpack why, and I think it's probably this is the most public I'm being and the most vulnerable I'm being in public. So although I'm quite an honest person, I'm actually not very good at being vulnerable, and this feels vulnerable. So this is quite a hard space for me to be in, but I'm gonna do my best. But just so you guys know my headspace a little bit. Okay, so we'll do it. Just to let you know there's a pun in the first sentence. It's terrible. It almost works written down, but I'm not sure it's gonna work. Say it out loud. I'm gonna do it anyway. Okay. Welcome to the R.E. Podcast, the first dedicated RE podcast for students and teachers. My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this is the RE podcast. The podcast for those of you who think research is boring, which it is, and I'll prove it to you. I'm currently part of the Cullum St. Gabriel's Leadership Scholarship Program. This program provides opportunities for emerging RE, RVE, and RME leaders to expand and deepen their reflections on educational leadership in the subject through receiving mentoring, structured challenges, research insights, inspirational network events, and experience of professional development delivery. So it's a fully funded program which develops leaders in four areas: being research engaged, curriculum engaged, politically engaged, and classroom engaged. The part of the program that I have found most tricky is engaging with and in research. To say I have struggled, actually, is an understatement, even to the point that I nearly left the course twice. And at times I've just buried my head in the sand and had panic attacks. But after amazing support from Column St. Gabriel and my mentor, I decided not to give up and instead to focus my research on barriers to research. This hasn't made the experience any easier. In some ways, it's been harder. As it's really the first time I'm publicly exploring my own new IDiversity. For me, my barrier is ADHD. I just find it nearly impossible to read things, take in the meaning of what I'm reading, organize the new information, assimilate the new information, plan a task. So both engaging in research and with research is a real challenge for me. And I know maybe a lot of you listening have never done their own research or really engaged with the research of others. And there might be lots of barriers for you that extend beyond not just having time, although I know this is a massive issue for teachers, particularly if you have other barriers too. So I wanted to talk to people from the world of research about the barriers they have faced and how to overcome it. But first I wanted to talk to Fiona Moss and Jill Giorgio, who have been with me on this leadership course journey. So Fiona and Gillian, welcome back, both of you, to the podcast. This is neither of your first times. So Fiona, do you just want to say sort of what your role is in terms of your role within the leadership course for Cullum St. Gabriel?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

So last September I started a new job as Education and Programmes Manager for Cullum St. Gabriel's. And as part of that job, I lead and manage the Leadership Scholarship Programme. But that suggests it's all new to me, but it's not because in my previous role, where I was an advisor at RE Today and I was the CEO of Natre, I was on the steering group of the Leadership Scholarship Programme and have mentored someone for each of the five years. So there are five people out in the world who have had the joy or the tragedy of me as a mentor, you'd have to ask them about that. And so that's my engagement. So I've taken over from the amazing Claire Clinton who was doing this role before. And yeah, I'm just finding my feet in this role and making changes and developing it as we go along.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

And as if you know starting a new job isn't big enough, you've been incredibly gracious and incredibly generous with your support for me. So I really appreciate that. Jill, you've had the task of mentoring me through this for my second year on the course, but just talk a little bit about what your role is generally, but then specifically what your involvement is with the Collum St. Gabriel leadership course.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Okay, so the day job for me is working as a diocesan RE advisor, so supporting infant junior, primary, secondary, special schools with all things RE. And like Fiona, I have been a mentor for the Cullum Leadership Programme for several years now. It's always a really great privilege to be asked to do that kind of work, to work alongside somebody who is moving into that space of leadership, particularly at a more national level, moving beyond their local area or their region of the country. But I would say for me as a mentor, it is as much about how my own practice is changed by the people that I am mentoring. And I think that is particularly the case for the work that we've done alongside each other, Lou, I think, um over the course of your time on the programme.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

And so let's just stay on that because I think actually for all three of us it's been quite an interesting journey and sort of learning and exploring things that maybe we hadn't necessarily thought about before. What have you specifically learned, Jill, about barriers to research through the experience that I've had?

SPEAKER_02 5:40

It's a really interesting one, isn't it? Because you don't see what you don't see and you don't know what you don't know until somebody points it out to you. So I, although I don't have a sort of a PhD or anything like that, I've always worked in the world of research throughout my career. And reach, I'll be honest, it comes naturally to me. Like I find it easy to read really complex stuff. I can see Fiona is shaking her head vigorously saying, nope, not me. But for me, it is one of my skill sets. I can take large bodies of information and assimilate it and and kind of replicate it in perhaps simpler language or or summarise things, that comes naturally to me. And I know it doesn't come naturally to everyone, but the idea of looking at a piece of research and just being too frightened to even turn the first page, that is not something I have ever experienced. So I think working alongside the mentees generally, but particularly working alongside you on your time on this leadership program, it's been a real education for me about how to support someone for whom the barriers are so significant that engagement is pretty near impossible. And how do you navigate around that, both in terms of making the sorts of adaptations that might be needed to help you engage with it, but also to deal with the consequences of the emotions that are involved with realizing that there is something that you're being asked to do, but you're finding it really, really tricky to do it. You know, it's not a neutral thing that it throws up lots of emotions, and I think we've had to figure that out between us, both the practicalities, but also the impact that it's had on you emotionally as you've gone through this journey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

And for me, it's been incredibly emotional, and it's it's not as simple as to say it's just because I couldn't do something and I felt embarrassed, although that was part of it. So it's not that I just can't do it. I didn't know how to move forward because I can't do it. And so I just felt sort of stuck and felt I felt trapped, and I think that was the hardest thing. And I do just want to say, listeners, that Jill, I cannot tell you how much she supported me. So there was this one thing I had to read, and I was really struggling to read it. One, I just didn't understand it. And if I understood it, I then couldn't remember it. By the time I got to the end of the page, I'd kind of forgotten what the first bit was. Actually, sometimes I got to the end of the sentence and I couldn't remember the beginning of the sentence. So Jill painstakingly voice noted summaries of every section, which kind of points to that skill that she was just talking about, that she can very quickly read something and understand it and summarize it. So she read it and voice noted summaries of every section to me. I then reread it out loud and recorded it, and I used AI to summarise it. Now, I don't still don't think I got it, but actually it was really interesting to kind of well, it was lovely actually to get your support for that. But also to try different ways of reading things. That actually sometimes, if that barrier is reading, you just think, oh, I have to read it and that's it. But actually there are things out there. Fiona, you I know you mentioned earlier that there's apps that will read things to you. Because I actually find it much easier to listen than I do to read. So, Fiona, let's talk to you, sort of personally, what you've learned through my experience of barriers to research within this course.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

I'm just going to take one step back to explain my vigorous shaking of head when I find it all very easy. Part of my job is I now support our doctoral scholars and master's scholars, as well as supporting the leadership program. And when I was interviewed and when I got the job, I said, Oh, that's the bit I'm going to find most difficult. I was very aware, even though I have done research, I did a Farmington and have done other research over my time as a primary school teacher. I was aware that it wasn't my natural home. But I have interestingly, we've not quite managed this with Louisa yet. I've fallen in love with it in a way I never thought I would. And it's interesting, one of the barriers we've talked about is time. And I have had to take time, as literally part of my job, to engage with research and discovered that so I'm not neurodiverse, so maybe that makes life a little bit easier for me. But I think what I'm trying to say is I understood where you were coming from, or where you are coming from, Louisa. And as well, I uh have people very close to me who have ADHD as well, and I've witnessed how they learn. Uh, one of them is just about to start a master's, Lou. So it would seem that she is finding her way through that. So I think some of the barriers that I have reflected on first year in the job, looking at how it's been difficult for you, some of it is the why. Being really clear, because I think, Lou, you would say yourself that you have sometimes gone, why are we doing this? Why have no idea?

SPEAKER_01 11:02

More than once, yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Why are you making me read this insert name of document that Louisa decides is the worst thing in the world. I promise I've not tried to make her read the things that are the worst thing in the world. But being much clearer about why is it important in this programme. That's why I was careful when I used the title of the programme, which is the Leadership Scholarship Programme. We have a tendency to just call it the leadership program, but actually, scholarship is in there. And we know that as a leader, we need to know what the latest thinking is. We need to engage with research, so whether it's Chartered Colleges Magazine Impact, or if you're doing an MPQ, there's lots you would do there, or for RE it might be professional reflection or even the British Journal of Religious Education, but let's stick with professional reflection for now. And RE has a really specific research history. So one of the things that I think was a barrier, and I intend to kind of work as we evolve the programme is to be really clear why this article or this piece of reading has been suggested. So something about clarity on why we are reading what we are reading. So, for instance, one of the things, and I can't remember whether this was your year or not, there was an article on personal worldviews, for instance, by Ruth Flanagan. And perhaps that was one of them that you could understand why we might want you read. But sort of it's also the skills that we are hoping that the members of the leadership program will develop in that. So that being able to think critically and say why you absolutely disagree with an author and the person who runs our reading group, because we have two aspects of research in the leadership program. There's a reading group, but there's also some small-scale action research. So if we just stick with the reading group at the moment that Sean runs, really sort of explaining why and being as supportive as we can. The first year now, and you didn't do this, Lou, in your first year, they have a reading group as well, and we focus very much in that reading group, the very first session of that, on how to read. So, Louisa, you talked about some of the things that Jill had done for you, and we're really kind of spending quite a lot of time, well, a whole session, explaining and going through that. So I actually did that session with Sean a couple of weeks ago, and we invited Katie Freeman and Sarah Dennis, Sarah, who's in the same year as you on the leadership programme, to talk about, because they both found it difficult as well, and to talk about what their difficulties were, how they had got over those. So being really clear on approaches like using AI, like having something read out, like there's I'm not going to be able to remember it now, but there's something that will turn a reading into a podcast. And two.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Without you, Lou, I wouldn't have found some of these tools. And they are enriching and expanding my own professional life. So I have to say thank you to you for doing that because you've made my professionalism better because we've had these dialogues. But I think it's also, as Fiona is saying, it's making things more expansive for the people that are coming behind you on this leadership scholarship program. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

I think it's also a change in technology and a change in how we think about these things. So I can remember conversations we had about, well, we mustn't use AI, and actually we've changed as a steering group and saying, okay, well, let's think about how we might use AI. Ideally, let's not use AI straight away. Let's read the first paragraph and read the last paragraph. And once you've read the first and the last paragraph, actually you probably understand most of what it's about. And that makes an awful lot of difference when you're reading, or, as you've just demonstrated, having it read out to you. So loads on the why, loads on the how as well. Do you want me to talk a little bit about the small-scale action research as well, Lou, or shall I leave that for you?

SPEAKER_01 15:30

I do, yeah. I mean, there's just two things I want to pick up before you do that. One is it's so significant, and I don't know if you realise how significant it is for someone who's new I diverse, which is explaining the why, because I'm still, you know, I'm still processing what ADHD means for me in terms of, you know, I don't really know where my ADHD ends and me starts, and what's just a personality thing, and what is a new IDiverse thing. But something I have noticed is that I am motivated to do two things: things I have to do and things I want to do. And anything that is outside of those two things, my brain, it's literally like it's making me not do it. Because I need to have a sort of, I have to do this. Like if someone's coming around to my house and I've got to tidy my house, I'll do it in half an hour. If I'm doing it just because I'm meant to, because I'm an adult, I'm never gonna clean my house. The other thing is like doing the podcast. I don't have to do the podcast. I love doing it. And so therefore, I cannot wait to get home to edit or to record or to publicize it or whatever. So that's what I've noticed in terms of my own personal motivation. So if I'm being asked to do something and I don't have to do it, and I cannot see any value in it, my brain just kind of goes, shut down. Nope, not gonna do that, in quite a stubborn way, which is entirely unhelpful. So you can kind of find techniques to kind of trick your brain into, you know, there's different techniques you can use, but I think that's that's really significant that you've come to that question of why, because it helps you to then hone the decisions you're making because you understand the rationale behind it, but it also makes it much more accessible to people that are neurodiverse because of the way their brain works and the way the brain categorizes to-do lists. So I think that's really helpful. The second thing that I just want to talk about that you've mentioned, and I just want to make sure that people really grasp hold of this, is what, and it's a why question, but why it's so important to engage in and with research. Because I think, and you know, I hold up my hand, I did not for the first 20 years of my life, like I really didn't engage in research. Although, I mean, I was kind of part of that cohort of teachers that was allowed out off to a day to go to some CPD in London and you gotta got a free lunch. But actually, that disappeared 10 years into my career, and then for 10 years I was just teaching. I wasn't in any way engaging in or with research. So sort of really clarify, Fiona, and then maybe I'll come to you as well, Jill, why research is so important.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

So I think research is really important because nothing is static, things change all the time. And as a teacher in my classroom, how am I going to find out about that? It's really difficult to find out about those changes. So I said I was really lucky in that I did a Farmington in the late 1990s, which back in the day gave your whole term out to study and listen and find out and go and look and see what was going on outside my own bubble. I taught in the same primary school for 15 years, and I kind of at the beginning assumed it was like that everywhere. Well, it turns out it's not. So research is taking you outside of your own situation. It is teaching you about what is changing, what best practices, what new ideas are. And as a teacher, our pupils deserve that. So, in essence, who are we doing it for? We're doing it for the children. We're doing it to ensure that they get the best that they possibly can. And sometimes, I suspect you thought this, Lou, we might make you read something or suggest that you read something that isn't about tomorrow in your classroom, that is about yesterday in RE. And by yesterday I mean the history of the subject. A particular favourite tone of uh Louisa's. But actually, it was really interesting. Your group, at the end, mostly, you may not agree, Louisa, they could see why we had read that because it helped us understand the changes and the suggestion of a religion and worldviews approach, and how they could see how all of that fitted together. So, research is important for our pupils, but also for us as professionals to understand why we are doing what we are doing.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Jill, do you want to just come in at this point?

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah, I think uh so slight sidestep here. One of the things I really value about the religion and worldviews approach is that it values acts of noticing and it values and draws attention to acts of interpretation, of interpreting. I think research does the same. I think what research is doing is research is asking us to notice, to really pay attention and to notice, but it's also asking us to interpret, but also to be very sharply aware of the different ways in which people might interpret the same thing. So, in terms of, you know, we want our children, we want our young people in schools to become more critically aware of themselves and of others, you know, their religious, their non-religious worldviews, that whole complexity of being human. That I think is what research is doing for teachers. It's asking you to become more critically aware and more self-reflexive about your own practice. So it's those acts of noticing, drawing attention to things that you may not have noticed before, but also giving you the skills, the tools to become a wise interpreter of what it means to teach, actually.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

So let me give, I want to give examples because this is how my brain works is that I need practical examples to demonstrate the points that you're making. So if we walked into an RE classroom and it was a secondary school, and the teacher was saying to the kids, I want you to design a prayer mat or make a poster or he's a word search as our starter, most people would go, Okay, that's not Good RE. In the past, that might have been acceptable. Now it's not. And so what research does is it's allowed you to judge what's the best way of teaching what we're now teaching, and then taking out those things that are not good RE, like making a prayer mat. The other point you're making, and actually this is quite typical, there's this very famous verse in the Bible that's used quite a lot where God says to Adam, It's not good for man to be alone. I will provide a helper for him. And that verse has been used historically by the church to subjugate women, to say that men are the leaders and women have the supporting role. What research does is it makes you go, hmm, that word helper, that's an interesting one. I wonder what the original word was. And it's Alma. And actually what that word means is the giver of life. And that's how you help, by giving life. And I think it's used maybe 21 times in the Bible. Once for Eve, 20 for God. So actually, this is not a subordinate role. This is really this is a really important role that women have, which is that you give life, which is extraordinary. And so that's what research does, is it takes something that's been widely used or believed to have been understood and just challenges the way you're understanding or interpreting that. Now, the only reason I can note those two bits of information is because somehow I done some research despite my challenges. And that's impacting how I teach RE to the children so they get the best version of what good RE looks like. So yes. Are you ready to navigate the future of education to confront the challenges and develop the opportunities shaping young minds today? This July, the Sea of Faith Network invites you to a pivotal conference, Education for This Life. We're diving deep into the powerful intersection of education and religion, exploring how artificial intelligence is transforming everything we know. What are the threats we must face? What are the incredible possibilities we can harness? And how do we ensure that every precious moment of curriculum time contributes to the education of young people in our rapidly changing world? Prepare to be inspired by leading voices in the field. I am thrilled as the host of the Ari podcast to be presenting alongside the brilliant minds of Professors Rupert Weggeriff and Beth Zingler, renowned specialists in religion, education, and AI. And the wonderful professors Michael Rice and Denise Cush, leaders in the development of big ideas, theory, and practice in science and Ari. Don't miss this crucial event. Join us on Thursday, the 24th of July, and Friday, the 25th of July, 2025, at the Corum Conference Centre in London. Come for one day or immerse yourself in both. Secure your place and discover full details online at seaoffaithnetwork.uk forward slash conference. That's sofn.uk forward slash conference. So Fiona, is there anything else you want to say or what we've already said?

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yeah, I just wanted to pick up on those two things you've just picked out. So that idea of interpretation that Gillian was giving us as part of research. And I think that's what in this reading group we have as part of the Leadership Scholarship program is looking at how the writer of the research has interpreted. Because every writer of research goes, right, this is what I've found out, this is what I want people to know. I want them to have my viewpoint on this particular piece, and so they write in a way to persuade you of their viewpoint. So one of the things we have to do, just as you demonstrated beautifully with that Bible verse that is used to Eve Shame, you've looked at that idea of interpretation. And that is a skill that you've clearly got, and that was one we are trying to develop, and also helping people to think critically, disagree or agree, and then explain their viewpoint, which is of course a skill that we expect our young people to do in our classroom. So I think I just wanted to pick up on those couple of things.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

I will just respond to this, and this is not antagonistic, but it's just my lived experience. You cannot do that unless you understand what someone is saying. So you can't be critical of their positionality unless you understand what their positionality is. If you're reading something, because I think if, and I've been asked to do this as part of the leadership, what do you think of their viewpoint here? Do you agree with it or not? I didn't understand it, so I didn't know whether I agreed with it or not.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

We didn't help you well enough with that how. You didn't manage to engage with the how. And sometimes you did, and some of them were harder, and some of them were easier to do that with.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Yeah, yeah. Can I just also observe, and again, this is why I think research is as much about noticing, the way in which research is not just carried out but also then disseminated, communicated, is a reflection of certain norms. And it's really, really, really important to notice what those norms are. It's not unusual if you are carrying out research, you know, the ideal research community is collaborative, it's supportive, it's healthy partnerships, but in reality, often it's competition for very little funding, it's justifying your own research by saying why somebody else's research isn't as good as your research. You know, there's a culture perhaps, and certain norms and expectations around even to the degree of you know what kind of language you use. So I started doing a PhD 20 years ago, and I'd got to the writing up stage of doing my PhD when my funding ran out. So I started working as a secondary school teacher of RE to help me supplement continuing my PhD. And I actually didn't finish the PhD, and one of the critiques I got in that period was that my language changed. So the language I was using to communicate my research became not appropriately academic because I had started writing for my students as opposed to writing for a purely academic audience. So I think there is something there where you take a group of people who are passionate about RE, passionate about their subject, passionate about teaching, and then ask them to engage with highly academic texts written in very specific language styles, you need to adjust for that. It's really, really important to notice those norms and then adjust for them.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Although Louisa knows this, but we are changing one of the pieces that is going to be read. That's not just down to Louisa. I read it too and thought, I think we can find something that's going to allow us to engage with this material in a different way. I hope Catherine won't mind me saying this, but Catherine, the CEO of CSTG, Catherine Wright, relatively recently got her PhD, and she told me that she was told by her supervisor that she had to write her PhD in a way that her husband would understand it. To be clear, her husband does not work in the field of RE. And so I think there's also it depends where you're doing it, and I think there has maybe been a change in some of the thinking around that.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yeah, I agree. It's the noticing both that I think is really key, particularly because I I know the range of research that you guys engage with as part of this leadership scholarship program is diverse. You know, it's a full spectrum of kind of really strongly academic thinkers and teacher researchers who are doing the job on the ground. There's a good breadth, I think, to engage with, but it's I suppose it's the sort of Wittgenstein thing, isn't it? It's the language games thing. And do you have the tools to be able to switch from one mode of communication to another? I think there's value in being able to do that because actually I think it's really powerful for those pure academic researchers to understand how their research is hitting with people who are actually doing the job. That kind of two-way dialogue is really, really important, really valuable. But for it to happen, the people who are receiving the research need to be able to engage with it and understand it and be able to interpret it and feel confident in doing so.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

So what you're suggesting is that historically there's been a bit of intellectual arrogance amongst researchers and academics that they have to kind of outwrite each other and sort of use their kind of new buzzword that they've just discovered. And actually their sentences are so complex that you can't access it. But also the referencing, now I don't know the different names of the different types of referencing, but the one that they tend to use is when you put it inside a sentence. So some other people do it as footnotes or do it as like a bibliography thing, but the way that it's preferred to be done is embedded within sentences. And that's a nightmare for someone like me because I lose the flow and the meaning of the writing. And so these things are, in terms of the norms that there is, a particular demographic of society that historically has been engaging in research that isn't accessible to people outside of that little academic bubble. So I think that's interesting. And I I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, Fiona, but there was one thing we read, and it's a positive thing about the article by Paul Smalley about locally decided RE. That was great, it was really great. I read it, I understood it, I had an opinion about his positionality, you know. So, you know, I think this is why, and this is maybe the message I want to give out to people, is that we all have our own barriers to research, and that might be time, that might be neurodiversity, that might be that we're outside the norms of academic research. And so, in terms of language or the sector of society that this research comes from, we just can't connect to it in other ways. But I think what message I want to give is there's such diverse research to engage with. You have to find, you know, whether that is, you know, for me it's podcasting, which is fantastic. Um and if you know, if you notice, if you listen to the RBE podcast regularly, I'm constantly trying to make things simple because that's how my brain works, you know? And that actually meets the needs of a certain group of people who appreciate things being broken down in ways that are accessible. And I try to make sure that my guests are diverse from diverse worldviews, diverse genders, diverse in all the ways that you can be diverse or sexuality and everything, because actually, you know, research is not just about big words written on a page. There is a wealth of, you know, different types of research, you know, whether that's a webinar or whether that's a conference or, you know, whatever that might be. It doesn't have to be reading stuff. Fiona, is there anything you wanted to say about the kind of active research part of the course?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Yes. So as part of the course, there is what I have taken to calling, as we've got further into this year, small scale action research, instead of just calling it action research. And I use the whole phrase again because I wish to emphasize the word small. As we're recording this, Columbus and Gabriels are holding a primary focus week. And we've had some little films that have gone out on social media, and one of them is from someone called Ian Coles. And Ian Coles is a primary school teacher in Ratford, where I'm from, and he's done a lovely little, I don't know, 30 seconds, where he talks about. Some people think research is might be scary, but we have all listened to a blog, read a blog rather, listened to a podcast like yours, Louisa, had an idea about something, a curriculum, put it into practice in our classroom, talked to some pupils, looked at some books, and done some tweaking. And I thought, I just love that description because that's what small-scale action research is. You don't have to read the sorts of things that we have just been talking about to do it. So I love some of the things your colleagues have been doing who are on year two of the leadership programme. Someone's going into primary schools, she's in a secondary school, and looking at assessment examples. Someone else is doing some pupil voice. So they are small things. We're not trying to change the world in the research that we're doing. And I think how it was perhaps understood by one or two people at the beginning was, oh my goodness, I've got to do this really big thing. And there's a form to fill in where you're sort of putting down what you might do. And some of them I had to say, that's more than a PhD. What you're suggesting you're going to be able to do there is absolutely massive. So something small in your context is the small scale research that we are thinking about. And again, as a result of sort of taking the program over and seeing how it's running for this first year, we're now going to have a what we call a community of practice for the people who are in their first year and at the end of their first year on what we mean by small scale action research with the emphasis on the small and on what Ian describes as you get an idea, you put it into practice, you then talk to pupils, you then look at books and you tweak. And just giving people the opportunity to do that and then tell some other people about it.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

So I'm laughing to myself, only because my first idea for my research, oh my gosh. I right, to be fair to myself, I still want to do this research at some point, but I would just want to say how big I went. And this is so, so typical of my ADHD. I go large and then I fail. So I go in all hyper-focus, right? I don't want to do a little bit of research, I want to change the world. So I went in and my research ended up, my first research that I've now put on the back burner until a less stressful time, was to essentially write a national content for supporting teachers with other specialisms. So there would be basically a step-by-step toolkit for training every teacher with another specialism in RE nationally. So that was going to be my small-scale action research.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

To be fair, a really powerful resource, actually, and meeting a very specific need. And I think even in the discussions we had, we recognised that this was not a job for a year, but actually to have the space during the course of that year to plan forwards and think about what it might look like, not just in that year, but the year beyond that and the year beyond that, and so on. But yeah, you're right, massive.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Absolutely massive. And not the number one person either. No, no, as a little group of people.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

So I think that was really interesting. But I think again, because we're talking about barriers to research, those barriers aren't necessarily stopping people researching. But an ADHD tendency to hyper-focus on something that you have to do in it being massive. So, you know, I don't just want to put away a few bits of my dishwashing. That kind of thing doesn't interest me. I want to clean my entire kitchen. And if I can't clean my entire kitchen, I'm not gonna put my dishes away. So that's the way that my ADHD brain works, is I work to extremes. So I have to hyperfocus and then I kind of fall apart. So if I'm gonna do anything, it has to be big, or there's no point doing it. So that's that's an interesting part.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

I think there's some intersectionality within that. I think different people have that differently. So for some, it can be right, I want to look at this very small thing in quite a lot of detail. Yeah. And I want to look at it upside down and and inside out and all of those things. So I think some people are perhaps a little bit different there, but absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Just before we close, ladies, there's just, and I think we've kind of touched on this, but I just wanted to sort of make sure we've got the key bits of information. And Fyodora, you've talked quite a lot about this in terms of what's going to change about the leadership course. So let's just bring a lot of those ideas that we've mentioned together a little bit, because you know, I'm not saying it's all changed because of me, but I think in your sort of first few months on the job, you've had lots of conversations with people, but specifically looking at barriers that there are to research, what changes are you making within the Cullum St. Gabriel leadership course?

SPEAKER_00 39:20

So we have recruited 11 people for year one. I cause trouble from the moment I start. There are 10 spaces, and I've recruited 11 people. And I'm having a one-to-one meeting with each of them in July before they start the program. And you aren't the only reason for that, though. I think it's really important for me overseeing the program to understand what their situation is. So, do they have caring responsibilities? That might mean. So, one of the things we we suggest we'd really like people to do is to go to the Ariac All Ray Conference, which is a residential conference. And for all sorts of reasons, you might not be able to do that. And that's not something we ask anyone to put on any application form, because why would we? But I'm having a one-to-one conversation where, for you, Louisa, if you had felt you wanted to, you could have talked to me, if you'd have known about it at that point, about your diagnosis of ADHD. Or another person could have talked to me about caring arrangements they have got, or something else that might mean that they know particular parts of the program might be a bit troublesome for them. So one of our previous members of the program is dyslexic, and so she knew she was going to struggle with the reading, and she was quite open about that. So we were able to work out ways that she could do that, and she'd got strategies that she had learned. So if I know about that, I'm with their permission going to be able to tell their mentors about that, and also kind of work out are there some extra things we need to do? But also, if I know that, and they know I know that, they're going to be able to come and say, Well, you know, I said this is why I might need to do this a little bit differently. And we've already changed the program for this year. So rather than just speaking at national events that mean you have to go somewhere, we are partnering with Ulray on July the 10th this year to have an online opportunity for people to speak about the small-scale action research that they are doing as well. So, yep, meeting with people, finding out other places for people to speak. Obviously, that why and that how that I talked about around reading, be clearer about the why, be clearer about all the strategies that people might use, thinking carefully about what we are reading, that's already evolved during this year, and I've said something else is going to change as well. Be much clearer about that small-scale action research and talk about how think about your context. Think about something you small you can do within your context. So here are you, Louisa. You've talked about needing to do things that you love. Well, we came to the idea of you doing something around this on the podcast because we know how much you love the podcast. Uh, you may not think about it, but you have to research loads before you do each of your podcast episodes. But I think you don't think of it so much as research because you want to do it. So it's finding those things. Yeah, I think they're probably the main things that we are doing and have started to change as the years gone on.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yeah. Yes, thank you, Fiona. Jill, how do you think this has kind of shaped your thinking about the leadership program more generally and also specifically as a mentor, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 42:47

It helps me to root the work that I do on this program in the broader sort of strategic vision of Cullum St. Gabriel. So there's there's something within Cullum's sort of overarching vision about empowering the current and next generation of RE teachers and leaders. And what's really come through to me really clearly as a mentor on this program throughout this particular year is that there is a really strong commitment to having as expansive as possible an idea of what that looks like. So whether it comes down to the systems for applying, making sure that they are as accessible as they possibly can be, whether it's about really carefully analysing the kind of the ongoing feedback that you're getting, you know, formative, summative assessment, right? It's looking at the responses that we're getting as we are mentoring and as we're delivering sort of the communities of practice work and so on, but also at the end point, you know, how has this actually landed? What barriers have people been experiencing? How do we then adjust for that for the next cohort of students? On this particular programme. So I think it's sitting the work that we do very firmly within that broader strategic vision. And it's helped me as a mentor to be really clear that some of the core values of Cullum are driving how we should be supporting our mentees. So, for example, the idea of integrity or openness or collaboration, you know, for me, one of the big things I've done is reach out to researchers who are neurodiverse to have a chat with them and say, How do you do it? How can you help Luke? Let's try and put you in touch with each other and have a bit of a chat. Because I can't have that conversation with you because I don't experience what you experienced. So really rooting the work that I do as a mentor within that broader vision and values of the organisation, that's come through much more sharply as a result of this year.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah, I think you know it's interesting just that this is about future leaders. And what we know from research is that the more diverse leadership is, the more successful it is. If you've got the same model of person becoming leaders, then actually the leadership is not going to be as effective as if you've got diversity. And I think, you know, I don't want to, what's it called? Over over stir the pot, over egg the button, over egg the pudding. Whatever it's called. Over egg the pudding. I don't want to overstate this, but actually by breaking down those barriers to research, we open the path for a more diverse leadership. And I think particularly in RE, this feels very poignant because of the nature of our subject, and actually that the purpose of our subject is about inclusivity and plurality and diversity. But also because it's a proven way of making leadership successful. You know, if we look at the example of business, the more diverse your workforce is, the more productive it is. And because everyone has their own skills and it all kind of works together, you know, the sort of stupid analogy of a body. So, you know, if every part of the body was ahead, it wouldn't work. You know, you need to have your feet and your hands and your arms and and things have different roles, different jobs, you know. So if you if you said to an arm, you know, I need you to blink, it can't do that. Because I think, you know, the big picture of breaking those barriers of engaging in and with research and making it a more inclusive place is actually going to benefit everybody. Jill, any final thoughts just as we close?

SPEAKER_02 46:32

I think just to reiterate that the dialogue is crucial, it's not done, and that for people who are supporting those current and future RE leaders, the conscious act of listening and noticing and reflecting is what continues to strengthen things. So as far as I'm concerned as a mentor on the programme, for as long as they let me continue doing it, and I hope they will, that's really how I intend to keep driving things forward is listening, noticing, and responding.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Well, there is nodding from Fiona, meaning Jill will be continuing as a mentor. Fiona, any final thoughts from you?

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Jill's done all the best ones. Um, I think there's an importance of flexibility. I hope you better not answer this if the answer's no. Louisa feels we've been able to flex and change. So when Louisa has made herself vulnerable enough to say this isn't working, and I've really respected you for that, Louisa, that hopefully we've been able to whilst not go, no, don't bother with the research bit of it at all, which you might have liked. But hopefully we've been able to be flexible within parameters as to what can happen. And that's one of the things that for us, I think I would want Columbus St. Gabriel's to continue to be because of that importance of the diversity of people who are on the program. And we are already thinking about how we can look at the application process to make it not just potentially paper-based, so that we can not look people in the wide of the eyes, but you know, sort of look at people and talk to people and enable them to ask some questions around that. So we we're truly make it possible for different people to engage with the program. So flexibility and openness to a diverse membership of the program are things I'm aiming for.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Or reflexivity to use a word from the National Government standard.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Oh, yes, you would research language, Louisa, always. I was trying to simplify it.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Yeah, I think you know, and I think I found it. It actually cried. I think I'm gonna cry now because it was very emotional to be seen. And when you guys said what I could do for my research, which was to shine a light on barriers to research, it felt very emotional. It felt very poignant because I know there's gonna be people listening to this that have felt the same as me, that have not engaged in research, that have been made to feel as if they're not clever enough or they can't do something. And I really hope that by listening to this, there's someone out there who is a future leader who has so much potential and has never seen it, and that this gives them permission to kind of forge their own path that doesn't fit into the norms of the past. Because I think that's actually gonna benefit the community because they bring something so unique. And I feel very emotional about that, and I'm very grateful for you guys. And I'm not gonna say to anyone out there this has been easy, there are barriers to research, and there still is, but this has kind of been like giving birth. There's been labour pains, and I'm not like sorry for freaking out now. You know, it's it's a bit like that. You know, there's times when you're just going, no, no, don't take it back. I don't want to do this anymore. You know, and there have been those times, but actually, hopefully, what's going to come out of this is something very beautiful, something new, you know, this kind of like new life that is breathed into the RE community and to research into our future leaders. And that's what I hope. So, ladies, thank you so much for your time today, your time and patience with me, and your ability to see me and to support me in moving forward and not giving up, which I would have done without you. I would have just given up. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

It's been a real privilege, Louisa.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Yeah, absolutely. Absolute privilege. My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this has been the RE Podcast. The podcast for those of you who think research is boring. But maybe it's not. Maybe there's just barriers that you can overcome. But thank you so much for listening to us or the life out of you. We did it. Well done.