S15 E10: The One About Barriers to Research Part 2 - Alexandra Brown

This week, I speak with Alexandra Brown, RE Teacher, speaker, poet, and researcher.

Her unique intersection between race, gender, neurodiversity, and sexuality has caused many people to put up barriers as she attempts to put her research into practice.  At great personal cost, she has had to navigate these barriers.

Alex speaks to us with humility and passion, from a place of pain and triumph, about her journey.

And wait till the end for something deeply profound.

To find out more about the work Alex does;

Artistic collaboration (which she does not often get to share)- Entitled ‘ Pain and womanhood

https://magicalwomen.co.uk/project/facilitated-collaboration-for-black-lives-matter/
Below is the link to the artistic reflection Alex did about the initial piece 

https://magicalwomen.co.uk/project/alexandra-brown/

She also presented a paper entitled ‘A Black Queering of Encanto: Unearthing atmospheres of violence’
Reparative Queering of Religious Institutions | Queer(ing) Religion conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D3Bd0Ypbis&t=1342s

Alex's section is from 22mins 28secs- 45mins 16secs

https://blackfeministcollective.com/contributor-alexandra-brown/

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Welcome to the RE Podcast. The first dedicated RE podcast for students and teachers. My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this is the RE Podcast. The podcast for those of you who think research is boring, which it is, and I will prove it to you. This interview today is part of some research I'm doing as part of the Cullum St Gabriel Leadership course on barriers to research. This is because of my own struggles engaging in and with research due to having ADHD. As part of this research, I wanted to talk to other people who may have faced barriers. So my guest today is Alexandra Brown. My initial conversation with Alex was so profound, not only because of her lived experience, but also because it highlighted the implicit bias in the language I chose for my initial questions. So because of that conversation, I've amended the questions, having understood my own implicit bias. So welcome to the podcast, Alex. Thank you, thank you. And thank you so much for being willing to share your lived experience with us. It means a lot and it's something that's so important to us as RE educators. So it's really nice to have this lived experience, but in a slightly different context. Do you want to just introduce yourself to the listeners?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yeah, well, firstly, thank you so much for this very warm invitation. Very excited to be here with you. Been looking forward to this all week, actually, so thank you again. So, hello everyone. My name is Alex Brown. I am a secondary school philosophy, ethics and religious studies teacher. So when I'm not fighting crime and solving mysteries, which is what I spend a lot of time doing, I am a researcher, a guest lecturer, public speaker, writer, and a poet. And my work focuses really on three key areas. So the first is Christian theologies of liberation, namely black liberation theology, womanist theology, and Asian feminist theology, which is feminist theology within the context of South Korea. The second is Islam within the African American experience and Islamic feminism. And the third is decolonizing issues of social justice pertaining to gender, race, class, sexual identity and disability within the English RE curriculum.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Right, I think you may have just invited yourself back on the podcast because it would just be so amazing to explore. Like wow, I just I'm I'm in slight awe of you actually. Just what an incredible person you are already. And also something else, a mutual friend of ours, Simon, does the film club. Yes. Um and you are speaking at that the 16th of June, I think, or something, isn't it? So just talk to us about what that is so we can promote that as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, of course. So uh I am a co-founder along with Simon Sella, Marin Davis, and Janet Orchard. Um, and we are co-founders of the Race and Education Film Club. So we essentially use uh film as a means to explore uh anti-racism and promote anti-racism within the RE classroom. Um I think it's within the next two to three weeks. Our up-and-coming session is deconstructing Karen. Um so the information I can send you a link after this, but it's also on our website, and we are very fortunate enough to be joined by Phyllis Curtis Tweed and Rose Chanty Luke. So it promises to be a very exciting session.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Yeah, a hundred percent. And actually, I joined up to that session before I kind of put two or two together, so that's amazing. Just talk to us now about your involvement in and with research.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah, so kind of branching off from what I said previously, my areas of research are somewhat broad. So uh the answer to the question very much depends on when it is that we speak. So I thought it would be perhaps easier if I just limit it to the things that I've been intensely working on within the last two years. So there are, I guess, four key things within that. So the first is embedding black liberation theology into the RE and Religion and Worldviews curriculum. I was very fortunate enough to be able to publish an article with the journal Philosophy of Education. It is a shameless plug, but I will do it. I'm very proud of that piece of work. So the paper is called A Reflection on a Womanist Theologian's Endeavour to Dismantle Whiteness through creating the religious education module, Black Religion and Protest. So the paper, in a nutshell, it provides the socio-political context of the actual unit, Black Religion and Protest. So it speaks about the murder of George Floyd, the way in which COVID and lockdown impacted the black community as well as my own personal experiences. It provides a systemic breakdown of the unit and it speaks about the way in which it was received by students, parents, and colleagues, and it closes by touching upon reflections and conversations that I had with fellow black, anti-racist, and decolonial teachers doing the same work. The second is creating and embedding a decolonial and religion and worldviews unit I titled Stories, Folktales, Myths and Legends. So in a nutshell, I wanted to move beyond the very Eurocentric understanding of what it means to have a view of the world as it were. So I picked the following continents and nations as like a grounding point. So South America, China, Japan, Britain with a focus on the Wim West generation, Africa with a focus on Ghana, Native America with a focus on the Standing Rock Sioux tribe, and Afghanistan. So using those parts of the world as a point of entry, as it were, I wanted to explore with my students how ancestral legacy, history, lived experience, tradition, culture, socio, religio-political beliefs are ways in which knowledge, truth, and wisdom can be explored, shared, and preserved. So that's the second. The third, and perhaps what I'm maybe perhaps most well known for, is decolonizing knowledge. So in a nutshell, decolonizing knowledge means that we are rejecting the colonial idea that to be white, middle class, property, heterosexual, able-bodied-minded, cisgendered, and male is the epitome of what it means to be human and thus normal. And this speaks to not only the full embodiment of this archetype of human but also its individual facets. So for instance, we're also decolonizing and resisting and pushing back on ideas that to be male is the norm and to be female intersex is the other. So when kind of comprising that and then holding that in juxtaposition of decolonizing knowledge, we're rejecting, we're agitating, we're dismantling, we're fractioning, we're fracturing, and reimagining beyond the harmful and disorientating ideas that the colonial embodiment of the human, the archetype that I previously mentioned, possesses the universal experience, objectivity, neutrality, the right, correct, and the only lens, and thus are the sole valid producers, transmitters and preservers of knowledge. So whilst decolonizing requires me to do that upon like multiple intersecting levels, my most recent focus has been a black queer critique of colonial notions of knowledge and a disability justice critique. And the last, I promise, and this is my most recent line of research, is exploring and examining how coloniality, so that is the continuation of colonial power dynamics in the form of black epistemological erasure, so in the form of the erasure of black knowledge, informs the logic, content decisions, rationale, and formulation of the RE curriculum. So in a nutshell, those are like my four big things.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

It's it's kind of overwhelming, if I'm completely honest. Because I think that that colonial legacy is so entrenched into every facet of our society and has become so normalized that it kind of hides this kind of web of messiness that really is impacting everything, the decisions we make on the curriculum, how we represent people, you know, the things that we choose, the things that we leave out, the nuance that we have in the approaches to teaching things, where we're getting our knowledge from. And so it's such incredible work. And I definitely, definitely, definitely need to get you back on and talk a little bit more about that in terms of what that looks like in the classroom. I think that would be really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

In terms of your kind of like journey with research, what has it been like? What has your experience been in terms of engaging within in research?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Well, thank you for your previous comments and also thank you a lot for this question. I really appreciate it. So if I can, I'd like to approach the question from two parts. So the first is my engagement with my research on a theoretical side, and the second would I guess speak to the practical side and the implementation within curriculums that I've helped to develop and I've subsequently taught within the respective schools that I worked in. So theoretically, in relation to the first three areas that I mentioned, so decolonizing knowledge, decolonising religion and worldviews, and embedding black liberation theology, I would say overall my experience has been wonderful. It's been enthralling, rejuvenating, and at times has kept me interested in the subject and has made remaining in the classroom more bearable because I'm sure for reasons you can imagine, teaching is not an easy profession at all. So when you're I guess when new life as it were is breathed into you through the things that are important to you and through the things that you believe will make a more just not only subject but system and world as it were, it keeps you invested and it keeps you interested. So I've I've been really appreciative of that. With regards to the work that I'm doing on black epistemological erasure, so the erasure of black knowledge. I have to be honest in that the nature of that work requires me to really delve deep into a lot of heavy topics. So I'm looking at slavery, I'm looking at the structure and the mechanisms of the plantation, I'm looking at anti-blackness and what it means to view blackness and black knowledge and black folks as a site of nothingness, non-existence, depravity, and an entity that's violent. Suppression acts as a prerequisite for whiteness and a structural formation of a quote civilizing education. That has been incredibly disturbing, it's been heavy, it's been disheartening, and if I can be honest, it's been enraging. Pragmatically, so in terms of the practical implementations. On one hand, my work has seen a lot of encouragement, seen a lot of praise and aberration. It's garnered a lot of interest from students, and it's brought the subject to life and it's transformed it within the schools that I've taught in from a subject that had little to no buy-in from students, little to no interest, to one of their favourites, which then subsequently led to an increase in uptake at GCSE and A level. It's played a significant part in helping school refusers become high achievers. I can think of two specific students. And it's allowed for me to cultivate and develop really wonderful students with relationships with students who are more reserved. And it's seen me receive a flurry of wonderful and wholesome emails from parents thanking me for challenging their students, broadening their horizons, and instilling a sense of cultural pride into their children's identity that I think they had struggled to instill or didn't really know how to approach. And they've thanked me also for teaching their children in a way that saw them eagerly rush home and ensure that the discussion around the dinner table centred around you know what they learned in Ms. Brown's classroom. I mean these are just some of the positive things that I've experienced, and they did and they continue to mean a lot to me, and I really do have to hold on to them through very challenging seasons as it were. As I'm sure you can imagine based on the nature of the things I'm talking about and my embodied experience, the work that I previously mentioned and the work that I'm doing has faced a lot of opposition and resistance, hostility and pushback, and it seemed to me how I would describe it as I've experienced the worst of folks, especially my white counterparts if I can be brutally honest. So I've experienced, as I would describe it, aggressive misogynoir. So for those of us who don't know, misogynoir is an anti-black form of misogyny that is directed specifically towards black women, and that has manifested and has been sort of carried out through the form of bullying, constantly being undermined, ridiculed, and gossiped about. I've been shamed and belittled for making errors or not knowing something. So for example, like typos on a PowerPoint or not being able to locate a document on a shared drive. I've experienced social isolation, been ignored, given dirty looks from colleagues, I've had my subject knowledge questioned, I've had my competency as a teacher questioned, I've faced accusations of radicalizing students, and as a result of that I've had calls for my practice to be under heavy surveillance. I've had questions surrounding my sanity. So because of my unwavering stance regarding decolonialism and anti-racism, that was apparently said to be symptomatic of my being mad, having mental health issues, having an unhealthy and obsessive nature, and in general just the evidence of my lack of sanity. And that has been said in front of my colleagues quite freely and also alluded to in front of students. And I've also had claims that the units that I've created are not real RU, and that I'm compromising the integrity of the subject by turning it into social studies or sociology or political science, as it were. One of the schools that I previously taught in was an independent school, so that then fueled accusations that I'm cheating parents out of money and that I'm fundamentally cheating their children out of a good education. Then those are just the highlights, and these are all things that I've endured throughout my teaching career, and to describe it as awful I think would be a gross understatement. But I do kind of wish to couple that by saying that I am incredibly grateful to be out of that situation in that environment, and I'm painfully slowly processing and really understanding that when you're in like a volatile and a harmful environment, it's incredible how much you can ignore and diminish just for the sake of your own survival. And it's once you leave that space and you gain some space and you're able to think back on that period with you know with retrospect, you realise just how dire things were.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Alex, I'm so I feel sorry, I'm really emotional. I feel so sorry. I I'm so so sorry that happened to you, and it it should never happen. But you know, and I think that amazing things that you've done in the young lives of people growing up in Britain and how you have positively empowered and impacted people, where you've removed barriers for young people in being able to succeed, and you've done that within a system that puts the barriers up. You know, I hope that you get to a point where you know what you sacrificed or what you gained feels worth it, and it's you know, not to the certain extent, but I've been unfairly sacked, I've been bullied, I've been belittled for lots and lots of different reasons. And it doesn't matter how unjust it is, how unfair it is, there's still an impact, there's still a little voice that constantly plays in your head where you question your own integrity and validity and truth because of the things that you're fighting against. So, you know, I feel I feel really privileged that one, you've been so vulnerable and shared that with us. I really appreciate that. And I'm really hoping that people listening to this have a little bit more awareness of the constraints that are within our system. You know, there is a move to decolonize our curriculum, but it feels like talking to you we haven't gone far enough yet. You know, there's still a huge journey in front of us to kind of unpack the long history of colonisation. What's interesting listening to you is I think probably listeners are beginning to see the intersectionality of things that have caused barriers for you to have to navigate. And I think the other thing to point out is that this episode is so applicable to what we're doing in the classroom because actually it will help us to ask questions about the students in our classroom and what could be barriers for them researching, i.e., learning.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

And so I want people that are listening to kind of keep that in mind is that what can we do to remove those barriers? So, as you know, listeners, as Alex is talking to us, really think about the students you're in your class and get takeaways for that, because I think that's really important. So, this is about you as practitioners, as teachers, as educators, reflecting on the barriers that are in front of you, but also please relate it to the children in your classroom. So let's have a look at these barriers. What barriers are you continually needing to navigate as you engage in and with research?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Well, I first we just want to thank you for your vulnerability and what you shared and for your reflections, uh taking down a lot of notes. So thank you for that. I I really do appreciate that. I hope that we are enriching each other because you're definitely pouring into me. So I just want to thank you for that. And before I answer that question, I I think one of the things that I observed and learned throughout my experience as a teacher was that that decolonial work in particular, that anti-racist work, requires me as a black woman to fundamentally shake the core of one's not only worldview but system in which they work, in which they've been taught in, in which they've been socialise in, but the fundamental core of their being. And I think to have that done so directly and so unapologetically, in many ways, was always going to then translate into some form of resistance. But I guess it's how that resistance kind of manifested that fundamentally became the problem. And I think one of the things we've seldom take into consideration when we're talking about decolonialism is that it's predominantly racialised teachers, those of us who are black brown from the global south and so on, who are doing this work, and there is rarely any talk of how do we care for these teachers, how do we put provisions in place? So my safety, as it were, my mental health, as it were, my ability to do my job whilst X, Y, and Z was occurring wasn't really a consideration, but rather acted as like this logistical barrier that the institution needed to overcome in order for them to mine my cultural, my intellectual capital. So when we I guess explore the lives of said practitioners, as it were, we really need to look at the ways in which we're not just inflicting harm, but by being silent, by being quiet, and not considering how this holistically speaks to their experience, how that in itself is further exacerbating the harm that's being caused. So I just wanted to add that to your question. Uh, in terms of the barriers that I'm continually navigating, if I'm to speak about the institutional systemic barriers, and perhaps interpersonal on some level, I would say that they are anti-blackness, white supremacy, so genuine, ableism in the form of disability, neurodiversity, homophobia, and one especially that I found in previous schools, and one that I often don't really think is spoken enough about is liberal notions of progress and white liberal notions of progress if I'm to be precise. I think that in itself requires like a whole other episode, but I think it's important that I justify that because I think that's quite a statement to make. So, with regards to the white liberal notions of progress or liberal notions of progress more broadly, from my observation and from my experience, I've found that they are content or it is content with making things better but not making things right. I think often conversations in relation to like racial justice are almost prefaced with the necessity of compromise before we even get to the actual problem and its far-reaching ramifications. I think its slowness can often lead to stagnancy. I think it praises and delights and calls for transformation without change. It struggles to move beyond the stage of quote meaningful dialogue. And I think it fosters an elite and self grandiose sense of self that allows the dominant group to act as allies towards marginal. groups in ways that is performative and superficial and as such being an ally allows one to show up and you know quote unquote do good so long as it's convenient so long as they can present themselves as a saviour. So like hi I'm Dave, I'm white ally or I'm that good male, that man ally, I'm a good heterosexual ally and as such being a liberal as it were or white liberalism as it were almost becomes part of one's identity and almost like a badge that they wear with pride and doing so elevates heroism. It doesn't cultivate community. And I think liberalism white liberalism in particular fails to understand that one's humanity will always be diminished or inherently harmful when it upholds the harmful status quo. I don't really think it's able to kind of understand that. And just to kind of underpin what I've just said I want to draw from the work of the Aboriginal activist Layla Watson who says your liberation is bound in my liberation let us work together and I just fundamentally think that liberalism, white liberalism, liberal notions of progress isn't able really to conceive of that and on an internal level as it were interpersonal level. I think it's important to be honest that at times we can act as a hindrance to our own progress, growth and flourishing so I think whilst I'm you know decolonising doing anti-racist work and so on and so forth I live within the system I work within the system to in any way suggest that I haven't internalized anything or using certain things to my advantage in order to make up for the way in which it disadvantages me would not be true. So I also have to be honest and open about that. But I do I would say you know multiple times a day have to battle with the constant thunderous roars, echoes and murmurs of self-doubt as you say that these things will have you doubting yourself and what you believe in in every way, shape and form. And I frequently have to contend with this all-encompassing sense of sadness and hopelessness because the more I learn and the more I study the more I read the more I understand the more I'm comprehending just the gravity of the injustice that I'm seeking to dismantle and and that in itself really really sits on me I have to say and more often than not I'm the first to be doing this particular work or this particular research in this particular area so I'm like the first decolonial anti-racist teacher too I'm the first black real woman to within the Hori RWV world I'm the first black real neurodivergent woman to and it's exhausting and in most instances I'm doing this work in isolation. So there isn't really like a format or a blueprint or an example to follow so that in itself adds to the weight of the work and the weight that I carry but I guess in the midst of that I try to hold on to two teachings that help to ground and centre me. So the first is from the black British liberation theologian Professor Anthony Reddy who says that as black activist scholars it's important that we do our work so that others can do their work and then I hold on to the words of the anti-racist activist Ley Lassade who says that my goal in life is not to be a good person. My goal in life is to be a good ancestor so when I hold on to those two things I'm reminded that I need to draw from the wisdom many examples and the lived experience from those within my community and those who have come before me and I need to remember that I'm not alone and that I'm helping others who I may never meet and that in itself makes my contribution even more necessary. And when I remember those two things it gives me strength and perspective.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Do you know what it's interesting listening to you because I think one thing that stands out to me is I don't think I fully understood how it's not even just a discomfort how painful it is to sit in this space where you are challenging and unpicking and fighting against these norms that there's a way I think that activism is often presented that it's quite empowering and it's quite invigorating in your passion and exciting in your change in the world but the actual reality is this is painful and this is cutting to the very heart of deep pain within you.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

But the other thing and I know we've spoken about A4 Hirsch is your entanglement with the system and you sort of mentioned that before that you're working within the system that you yourself are colonized. You yourself are impacted by the very structures that you're trying to unravel so by unraveling them you kind of almost begin to unravel a little bit as well. And all of that intersectionality makes this a very very very difficult place to stay in for long periods of time which you're having to do.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah it's as to quote the black feminist or G Lord the personal is political. Yeah you can't do that work and not be personally transformed by it.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Yeah yeah yeah yeah one thing that we spoke about is that for you your blackness is obvious to people and so often people see you as a bit of a two-dimensional person that is just reflecting this one perspective of black women. So there's so much there in terms of there's not a black woman experience because as you say it's personal but also they don't necessarily see the other things about you that make you a three-dimensional person with depth and nuance you've sort of said that actually these quotes kind of keep you grounded and the importance of being grounded when actually everything is swirling around how else do you kind of navigate through these barriers?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yeah thank you it's um I think if I'm to answer the question honestly and authentically as I always endeavor to I think it's important to note that these barriers as it were they predate my existence and they will I imagine will continue to exist long after I'm gone. But in the midst of that these barriers are you know very much alive and well and within facets of the RE RWB world education system and society more broadly I would argue that these barriers are thriving. As such I think perhaps maybe a more pertinent question maybe to ask within your question is what does navigating these barriers entail? So I guess the short answer would be it entails great difficulty but the long answer I think lies in this really powerful statement that I came across when I was reading the book Toward Decentering a New Testament a reintroduction by Mitzi Smith and Jung Sutkim. It's an excellent book I have to say for those who wish to decolonize and offer new perspectives of key events and texts within the New Testament it's great for those teaching Mark's gospel and those who are teaching units that kind of centre around the gospels and the miracles in particular you know there's so many gems in there I think it can easily be used and implemented within like key stage three and four work so please don't be put off by the book's you know academic posturing as it were it is really accessible. If I remember correctly one of the chapters I think it's chapter seven speaks about how the privatization of water under Roman occupation brings like a radical and different meaning to Jesus's baptism.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Sorry I'm not digressing but anyway it's yeah it's a brilliant book. Yeah I couldn't recommend it anymore it really is a brilliant book but in any case the authors Smith and Kim within the introduction make the point of saying that racism and sexism are not the elephants in the room racism and sexism helped build the room so as such I don't view the barriers like hurdles or fences that I have to jump over, run around, break down, push past or even crawl under. I understand them as a foundational cement that built the house of modernity or built the house of modern society as it were of which we all inhabit. So if I had to return to the reformulated version of your question it's not simply a matter of navigating it's also a matter of asking how do I exist? How do I breathe how do I thrive and how do I ensure that I don't become enclosed by these barriers by these rooms and ultimately by the house so in the spirit of honesty and transparency I guess I do that best when I'm doing my work and when I'm fighting for social reparative justice and when I'm calling out oppression and holding institutions systems and structures and individuals to account.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

So powerful and I think this is the part in the conversation that we had where you know this is quite a new exploration for me is looking at kind of neurodiversity but actually it shows my path on the journey is quite new because the next question I'm going to ask is what needs to change in society in order to help people navigate those barriers and I think I was very much like as a woman have masked a lot in order to fit in and I think I'm still in that point where I'm taking responsibility for my neurodiversity that what do I need to do to overcome these but actually you know we've got to think about that on a sort of societal level what needs to change in society in order to overcome these barriers.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Yeah no I agree. Again if I'm to I guess answer the question honestly authentically I have to ground my answer within my identity so I guess ultimately I identify as a black queer disabled neurodivergent woman of Ghanaian and Jamaican descent and I think it's also important to note that much of my work centres the black community and that's not to say that everything that I do will explicitly focus on them but I will never create support uphold or actively be complicit in something that causes the community harm. I'm a very proud African Caribbean woman and I make absolutely no apologies for that. My identity as I'm sure you can appreciate is complex as you say it's nuanced and it intersects and intertwines along various marginalized lines. However I feel like my race inevitably colours my lens in my experiences so whilst blackness doesn't make up the totality of my identity it is present within every facet of my embodied experience and whilst I fully appreciate that the black community is not a monolith don't all the same we haven't all had the same experiences a considerable number of us have and I think this segment of the community is this segment that I wish to humbly advocate for in this moment through answering the question. So again for me the question isn't necessarily about what needs to change within society but rather what does society's lack of inability and unwillingness to change cost not just me but what does it cost the black community? So in answer to that question I guess it requires me to I guess briefly dip back into I guess another anecdote as it were I'm full of stories. I come from a storytelling community so storytelling is what I do.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Yeah that's so powerful thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

So a few months ago I was listening to a podcast I won't name the podcast but the episode was on abolitionism. So for those of us who don't know abolitionism is a political movement that calls for the destruction and the removal of institutions that they purport to enforce slavery like conditions. So for example abolish the prison system as it were the guest on the show who wrote a book about abolitionism was called Derek Purnell and she was asked the question so for centuries black academics and activists have been writing about racism, injustice, systemic violence and the pursuit of freedom why do you choose to join this tradition? And I think it's her response that ultimately answers the question So society's lack of inability and unwillingness to change means that we as a community do not get to be tired about other things and it presents us as a community who is undeserving of having other problems. So in many ways it keeps us stuck and preoccupied by this like eternal state of affairs that dictates much of our existence. So by reframing the question I think it was important for me to do I can centre the community I can centre those who have been harmed instead of asking the question that frames society as this fundamentally good entity that needs to make minor adjustments and minor alterations and I think it's pivotal that we kind of make that shift when doing that justice work because it allows for us to speak to not only the reality of the situation but it forces us to remove the veneer of politeness and niceness and civility that British society professes and the liberal notions of progress that I believe holds us back and it allows us to see, identify and examine the harmful mechanisms that are in place for this society to exist and function the way it does.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Yeah what's really powerful are you ready to navigate the future of education to confront the challenges and develop the opportunities shaping young minds today. This July the Sea of Faith Network invites you to a pivotal conference Education for this life we're diving deep into the powerful intersection of education and religion exploring how artificial intelligence is transforming everything we know. What are the threats we must face? What are the incredible possibilities we can harness? And how do we ensure that every precious moment of curriculum time contributes to the education of young people in our rapidly changing world prepare to be inspired by leading voices in the field. I am thrilled as the host of the RE podcast to be presenting alongside the brilliant minds of Professors Rupert Weggeriff and Beth Singler, renowned specialists in religion, education and AI. And the wonderful professors Michael Rice and Denise Kush, leaders in the development of big ideas theory and practice in science and Ari. Don't miss this crucial event. Join us on Thursday the 24th of July and Friday the 25th of July 2025 at the Quorum Conference centre in London. Come for one day or immerse yourself in both. Secure your place and discover full details online at sea of faithnetwork.uk forward slash conference that's SOFN dot forward slash conference something you've not even alluded to I think you've been very clear about is the cost of the work that you do that we sometimes maybe simplify. Just talk about the sort of holistic cost of persevering with your research I mean you have faced intense adversity so the layers of cost that's going to be is going to be immense isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah. Thank you for that question I think it's really important that you centered it as holistic as opposed to sort of compartmentalize it because by using the term holistic you allow for me to kind of speak to my full humanity. So thank you for allowing me to be fairly human in the answering of this question. So it costs a lot to the extent that I would say on some days in some moments I would say it costs too much because the research is born from the injustices that I and my communities pluralizing it. I think again it's important for me to explicitly say that whilst my blackness and my women is very very important to me again that doesn't make up the totality of my identity as I mentioned previously there are other ways in which I identify as such there are other communities of which I am a member. So when I use the term community with initial respect I'm speaking to every facet of my being so much of my research is born from the injustices that I and my communities have and continue to endure. So as a result of that persevering with my research cost me time it has cost me peace it has cost me joy it has and continues to cost me my health it robs me of sleep it diminishes my ability to daydream it has diminished my ability to holistically recall a time place and plenitude when the weight and the burden of the house of modernity and its runes did not weigh heavy on me like an overcast it has and it continues to take a lot of existential and imaginative space which slows me down and prevents me from doing other things. But again simultaneously I'm grateful to the folks that the divine so I personally don't call God I refer to God as a divine so I'm grateful to divine for the folks that they have brought into my life whether that be at you know specific moments or during seasons or for what feels like a lifetime and those folks have really laboured to remind me that life is to be lived and enjoyed and that I cannot allow the actions of others and institutions and systems and so on to take away my divine right to enjoy the things that cultivates and colours the human experience and they often remind me that you know Alex you have a right to rest you have a right to love and to be loved you have a right to laugh you have a right to seek adventure and enjoy art in its multifarious forms you have a right to good food and you have a right to enjoy the things that bring you pleasure in this life and you know these are really important lessons that I'm learning and seeking to embed within my life you know in very small and grand ways every day. It's not easy and I'm not always consistent but it is something that I am consciously mindful of and seeking to do better in.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

I don't want to be reductionist but it feels as though it's kind of robbed you of your able to just be like it feels as though each moment is a part of that struggle and whether that's because you're reading something or writing something or thinking about something that your brain is kind of full with this struggle and so you just can't be in that moment or just do something frivolous or find joy because this is sometimes all consuming. And I'm really glad that you are now consciously making decisions to kind of take that back and find those moments of joy or peace or happiness or frivolity or whatever it is you need in that moment. I think it's important something you mentioned right at the beginning and actually just listening to you talk there is a poetic quality to the way that you express yourself and so it's not going to come to any surprise that you are a poet because I think that you express ideas in an artistic way and in a poetic way and I can see how carefully you've chosen each word and each sentence and the way that you place emphasis on things is incredibly powerful as a way of communicating and something that you asked if you could do and obviously this is such a great privilege is if you could share a poem that you've written with us. Just give us a context of this poem first about how it came about and then if you would still like to read that that would be wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Oh absolutely but before I do I just circle back to what you said previously about my being as it were I think you're absolutely right I also think that's exacerbated by the neurodiversity the fact that I am quite a deep thinker and an overthinker at times and I do again fundamentally wish to say that my experience and how I navigate and what I endured and how I choose to live through live beyond and live with all of that is not reflective of the black community in its totality you could you know bring in another black RE teacher and they could have had similar experiences and you know will be dealing with this very differently. So I'm very mindful of me not being the poster child for everything black all things black the black community so I do just want to honour my community in that and remind what I imagine will be predominantly white listeners of my humanity and of my subjectivity within what I've said. So I do I do just sort of think that's important.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

Of course with regards to the poem so yeah again when I'm not fighting crime and solving mystery is the poetry right as you can't see this and I can your demeanour has just totally changed it is like there is a likeness in you and it must feel that for you poetry is a way of offloading and finding peace and joy and release in expressing yourself in this way and I don't know if I'm reading too much into it but just that there was a lightness to you and then there just joy in your face just thinking about poetry so it was very beautiful to see.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Poetry is a dear companion to me and it it allows me to give language to that which I find difficult to articulate and communicate. For me I I think the writing reading engaging with poetry I consider that to be an active worship person. So yeah okay so context for the poem so several years ago I had a student of South Asian descent I won't name the country and he identified as a male boy and he was a member of the LGBTQ plus community and he was born and raised in a very traditional and a very conservative Muslim household so I'm sure you can Imagine the intersections of that was not easy for him to navigate at all. And I remember our first encounter was in the first lesson that I taught him, and I wasn't particularly fond of him, if I can be brutally honest. He did not make a good first impression at all. And I remember him saying towards the end of the lesson, Miss, I know you don't like me. Most people don't when they first meet me, but I promise you that I'm gonna grow on you.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

Incredible self-awareness.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

And he was being serious, but he was also being very jovial. And I think he meant to say it quietly, but said it loud enough for everyone to hear. So I then sort of gave him a cheeky smile as if to sort of communicate, I'm gonna like tease you here, but we'll continue this conversation later. And I just remember point back saying, Sorry, I just didn't see it happening. The whole class just burst out laughing, and um we caught up later and we had a conversation. And you know, he was right. Less than two months later, a complete turnaround, he and I grew very, very close throughout a significant portion of my time teaching him. He became a very, very dear student to me, and for the most part of my time of knowing him, I would say on many levels I was very blessed and grateful to have met him and to have engaged with him. And then over the period of one summer holiday, he just changed dramatically. Changed dramatically, and I would describe his demeanour, his behaviour, the way in which he carried himself. For me, this is how I would describe it. I think that he began to exude an overbearing, I wouldn't even call it toxic masculinity by the end. I think by the end we were looking at toxicity in the rearview mirror. Personally, I would have described it as an overbearing, poisonous form of masculinity. I think that's that really is how bad it got, and I think he did that in order to cover up his insecurities and to cover up the things that he felt uncomfortable with to conceal them also. And again, sort of linking back to what you said about Freer Hearst and how sometimes we were in proximity to power and sometimes we're not, and I think the facets of his identity saw him so distant from power that the one thing that he could not only gravitate towards but really clutch quite aggressively, quite violently onto was his masculinity. And I think that's what's played out, and my poem, my poetic prose very much speaks to what I experienced and what I observed of him before, during and post that season. So that's the context I wish to share. So this prose is called Look at You Look at You Like me, much of your intersections dwelled on the margins, at times on the cusps of the periphery. Because of this, I knew you were in pain before you confided in me about your anguish and despair. I recall one afternoon you shared with me that even your pain felt lonely, because it lay on top, and within a body that refused to allow its tears, heartbeat, and clenched jaws to loosen and respond with repetitive practices that would allow for self-soothing. You would not allow your pain to commute. I can still remember your face as you spilt those solemn secrets. Allah Allah knows best, you would often conclude. Have you forgotten the countless times I fended off salvating wolves whose teeth dripped venomous insults? Have you forgotten how on those frequent occasions I would throw my body in front of yours when concealing your pain became your only form of defence? I have lost count of the times I came to your aid without your knowing, and shielded you from the betrayals, projections and self loathings of those who would unabashedly refer to themselves as a significant minority? Do you recall how you came to me seeking help and support to build a safe space? A hospital centered on the wellness, healing, restoration and wholeness for those within the LGBTQ plus community? Do you recall the time when you told me that your identity was too layered, too dense, and too thick to become a celebratory cake? Then like a singular feather floating freely in the air because it had escaped the confines of the pillow, I gently uttered to you that it will take time, and whilst it may not seem like it now, joy and delight can be found within the chaos of the intersections. Then one day it was as if you had pieced together the shards of a mirror that was too heavy to carry, and on that mosaic you created a distorted image of yourself that would allow you to dominate, conquer, and rule. Tired of seeing yourself as an object, you became the subject. You made a mountain out of your maleness, and became the person you had once loathed and sought to flee from for most of your conscious life. Your appearance changed, your disposition changed, your language changed, your circle changed, even your energy changed. I experienced you as an email whose subject could be translated as arrogant, ignorant, condescending, deluded, and predatory in almost every context. You went from being somewhat meek and mild to being haughty and boastful. The lung capacity of your inflated chest made breathing in the same room as you stifling. Please do not mistake my understanding of you. I knew that such qualities surrounded the girth of your personhood, I was under no illusion. However, my gentle reminders about how you and those you judged shared a flawed humanity while still possessing the capacity for change and thus growth acted as frequent and necessary interventions that often and typically brought us closer. Accountability without judgment, response without anger, in many ways acted as an umbilical cord that tethered us together. Now you read as a soul who is lost in this world, desperate to join Patriarchy's clan. I do hope one day soon you return to a more balanced centre, not in the hope that you will become a carefully measured substance, but in the hope that you are able to live a life that does not see you let out a fierce and unforgiving roar at the break of every dawn. I hope softness and gentleness revisits you at the most unexpected moment, and that after you have finished gnawing and gnashing your teeth and slamming your fist at its very presence, that it suspends both time and gravity. I hope it plumps your pillow and lays you flat on the floor of which you stomp. I hope that your refusal to submit exhausts you, and that you eventually concede to the softness and gentleness that was once a distant relative to your body, flesh, bone, and marrow. I hope it disarms you. I hope it leaves you feeling warm, tender, and held. I hope it gifts you with a vision of a childhood version of yourself that would wish to be your friend. I hope as you lay there, you feel no desire for a blanket or armour. I hope that when you arise, that when you are awake, you will no longer feel compelled to respond to the beckoning call that requires you to face bow and prostrate towards the house of patriarchy. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Thank you, Alex. That's that's incredible. It almost feels as though it's uh it's what you'd want to say to the patriarchy more generally, and what you want to say to the structures in society is that I hope that there's a time in the future where it doesn't exist in the way that it exists now. I hope that you can somehow find something softer. It feels like a real release of all the sadness and the anger and the frustration at you know this concept or idea of what it means to be a man in society. It's really powerful. And I it's interesting. What do you think he would think if he heard that?

SPEAKER_02 53:40

That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

I think there would be initial resistance and and anger and perhaps denial, and perhaps maybe even suggestions that I'm jealous on some level because I have more proximity to power and you know he's not being mistreated in the same ways that I'm being mistreated because of my lack of proximity to power because of my intersections. But I hope after that is done and he's had time to think and reflect, I hope that it would humble him, bring him to tears in a more somber sort of state, and that he can have an honest conversation with himself, but I think perhaps more to the point, have an honest conversation with Allah and really ask the question, is this what my creator desires from me?

SPEAKER_03 54:34

And do you feel that there are parallels to kind of your experience and the narrative that people created around you as a teacher and your capabilities as a teacher? In that you spoke truth and there was resistance and attack, but actually maybe somehow your hope is that those people that attacked you and took you down at some point something will click and they'll suddenly everything that you did would make sense to them. Do you think there's a an element of that?

SPEAKER_01 55:06

I think that's a really powerful question. Thank you. I think I would perhaps need more time to sort of sit and reflect on that, but what came to mind immediately was that the work that I did at the school, you know, which was both curricular and saw me lead whole school CPD about I think five or six sessions throughout the course of an academic year. And I think what caused the most anger, what was most jarring, what was most surprising and perhaps the most unsettling, was that a black person, a black woman with a demeanour as mine, with a physical presentation as mine, had the audacity to not only be honest and to be open, but to look my white counterparts in the eye and engage with them and speak to them and hold them to a level of morality and ethics as though they and I were equals. And I think it was that perhaps they experienced that as a violent disruption of power, power dynamics. I think that in itself was perhaps inherently at the heart of the problem. And I think if I had been quiet, if I had been passive, if I had not been, you know, decolonial and anti-racist in all that I do and all that I stand for, and I had been there to look cute for the prospectus, as it were, and to make the website look more colourful as it were, I would have had a very different experience. But because of my disruptive force, as it were, despite me being you know quite small and short in stature, I'm very softly spoken, my mannerisms are equally gentle, I seem to agitate them in a way that led them to, as I said previously, act as their worst selves. So I think yeah, perhaps by writing this poem about my student, I'm vicariously living through the art that I'm creating and perhaps speaking to things that I haven't developed the language and maybe even the courage to speak to within my own life. I think that's a really powerful point. So thank you for the space to kind of reflect on that. I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

You're like the mirror in Snow White, aren't you? That reflects the truth, but it's not the truth that people want to see, and it's not packaged in the way that they want to see it and that they understand and connect to. Yeah. Yeah. Very powerful. If there was maybe one kind of main message that you kind of want to leave people with to reflect on as we kind of close this episode, what do you think that might be?

SPEAKER_01 57:39

I think when we previously discussed this point, I think you framed it as if I could wake up tomorrow and one thing could be different about the world, what would it be? I guess I would respond to it ironically. I'm gonna deconstruct it, but I'm gonna respond and deconstruct it. I've been doing a lot of that today. I think that when we're talking about social justice work and reparative work, I think there's a misconception that the structural and the lasting change that needs to occur will happen almost like instantaneously. So I'm gonna be perhaps the annoying guest who comes over to one's house and refuses to take off their shoes and decides and dictates what it is that we're gonna do this evening. But I'm going to paraphrase one of my favourite poets, Rupee Core, in order to redress the question into something more uncomfortable and indeed something more just. And part of that redressing I I want to dissect it into three provocations, if I may. So provocation one. I do not think that a decolonial, humanizing, and a just world is something I will ever awake to. It is not something that will simply occur. It is something that must be intentional, something that must be shaped and moulded, something that must be birthed. It is something that's nature consists of sustainable and transformative seeds that can be found in the soil of the earth, if only we were willing to sift through it with our bare hands and bear the stigmata of bleeding knees. Provocation too. And I just want to preface this with a content warning, because I'll be touching upon like very sensitive issues. So another favourite poet and writer of mine, Ocean Wong, who in an interview about his new book, The Emperor of Gladness, said that often when a person has reached the brink of despair and they have made their way to the bridge ready to jump, and they are torched down. He says that we will clap and we thank God if we believe in God, and we rejoice at the turn of the events. But we rarely ask ourselves, how is that person doing on day three, day twenty, day a hundred and ten, because we forget that the thing or the things that took them to the edge of no return still exists. And similarly, part of the redressing of your question and this provocation requires us to consider the formative clay, the precious gems and minerals, the conception and the birthing pains of what a decolonized and an anti-racist world would entail, and doing so requires us to look into, between and explore the shades and contrasts of what such a reality axes of us? And as such I think these are some of the questions. So how did it feel when such a world or existence was on the tip of your tongue within breathing distance? How did it feel when your eyes first beheld such a world in existence? Was it so beautiful and magnificent that you momentarily had to look away? Did your tired and weary body collapse and transition into another life because all you had within you and all that kept you alive was ensuring this world's safe delivery? And similar to the questions that I asked about those who Jesus healed, what painkillers, form of anesthesia, and mobility aids now act as relics and artifacts? What societal constructs are you still unchaining yourself from? Are you truly able to enjoy this life, which you were told was too unrealistic and too far fetched to exist outside of your imagination? Do you wake up panicking in the middle of the night in cold sweats, fearful that this world and existence is a dream that could be so quickly taken from you? And are you able to enjoy this hard fought life? Or does it leave you reeling in a constant state of anxiety and restlessness? Provocation free. So I want to kind of circle back to your question and actually think about the day, because I really do think the day in and of itself is important to think about. I think that's a really important question. And this is something that I often think about, this is something that I often pose when I'm in you know other spaces having other conversations as it were. So Louisa, if it's okay, I'm going to arts. So if we did it, if we dismantled and eradicated all the systems and structures and institutions of oppression on such a day, what would you wear?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

Do you know what? So I like you, am an overthinker. And so I had an immediate answer to this question. And then I overthought myself out the answer. And I thought about all the reasons why. No, don't say that, don't say that, don't say that. So I thought of an alternative answer, and that alternative answer just it just doesn't reflect me. And actually, as you were speaking there, I realized that my gut instinct, my initial answer, was the most authentic one. Because if that was true, I would not wear a thing. That's my honest answer. If every kind of barrier, misconception, discriminative way of thinking about things, structures, stereotypes, if all of that was taken away, there would be no need for me to wear clothes. And I think something that I have learned through this experience is how uncomfortable I am with vulnerability. So I am very comfortable with honesty. Yeah. I am not comfortable with vulnerability. And I think that when I am the most vulnerable in bed at night, that's it. I am completely my authentic, vulnerable self. And so if we broke down all of those barriers and society was truly free for every single human being, I wouldn't wear clothes. You'd be naked because you'd be free, right? I'd be free. And I would feel safe from any kind of thoughts, actions, words that would discriminate or judge or narrate my nakedness as an invitation or anything like that. I would be completely free.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

And people would see me, my mask would come off. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

That's that's a bit of a massive. That's actually made me very tearful. Thank you. That's a very beautiful answer. If such a day were to exist, what would I wear? I think if I again um to answer that question honestly, I think I would wear dungarees, I'd wear some crocs, I'd put some cool badges on them, I'd have a tank top on, and maybe an open check shirt, and that omnipresent sadness and heaviness would have fled from me. And I hope that in that feeling of like freeness, as it were, as you kind of similarly described, I would feel comfortable and confident to wear bold and bright colours, and I wouldn't feel the need to hide behind black anymore, which I is which I typically do. But then again, like you, I I overthought it. I was like, but that is my honest answer. And I thought, oh maybe I'll just go shopping the night before. I didn't know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:33

Just go like what's it available? I just keep that. Exactly, exactly, exactly. I hate yeah, that would be I hate buying clothes, like it's literally one of my worst things to do. And I'm like you, I mean, I'm wearing completely black now. I like you, yeah, I wear an awful lot of black or muted colours, colours that don't draw attention to me in any way. And if occasionally I do, so somebody buys me something. So it makes a bit more of a statement than I'm used to, and people comment on it. I'm just so I have to then justify why I'm wearing that thing. Like it's a yeah, there is so much complexity. Do you know what is such an interesting question? Because when we talked about this, and when I read what you wanted to do, I was like, it's it felt like a frivolous question, but it's just absolutely not, because it is a way of connecting to some really deep-held ideas, thoughts, barriers, all those kind of things. It's really important.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

It invites vulnerability if you desire to accept that invitation. And thank you. And uh the second question on such a day, if you were to write a letter to a loved one, how would you sign off?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

Mm-hmm. So I wouldn't. Because if they were a loved one, they would know who it was from reading the letter.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:55

So I don't have to label the ending. I don't have to label myself, I don't have to explain who I am or what I'm feeling or anything like that. If it was a loved one, I wouldn't need to sign off.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:10

That is a magnificent answer. Again, I'm uh you can't see my face, but I'm smiling like a Cheshire cat. That was that was brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

I really, I really thank you. That's yeah, that's that's beautiful. I'm gonna I'm gonna sit with that. Thank you. Because my response to that, I I don't know actually, but I've about less than two years ago, I was in this uh black queer writing workshop thing. I attended a couple of sessions and I asked the same question to the facilitator who was um the British Ghanaian speculative writer and curator, Amma Josephine Budge, and her answer visits me constantly. I think it's such a beautiful answer. And she said that by that time technology would be so advanced that we would be able to teleport. So she would be able to deliver the letter in person. So her sign-off would be to place the letter in her loved one's hand and to gently kiss them on the cheek. And I I thought that was I thought that was magical.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:13

Thank you so much. I um the whole experience of planning this and speaking to you has I don't even know if I can put it into words. I feel like I I've opened a door that I didn't even know there was a place behind it. You know, that's what I kind of feel like my centre of gravity is slightly shifted. You know, partly because you're asking me questions and and usually in this space, you know, I'm protected. I'm the one that doesn't have to be vulnerable because I'm the one asking questions and turn it on my head. But also just every conversation you have with every human being shifts you slightly if you are an open person, if you are a compassionate, empathetic person. I think this one's been quite profound. And what I do know, this will not be our last conversation. That's what's so lovely, is that there's certain people that you meet, you're like, this is not going to be the last time we talk about things. I think I have more to learn from you, and I'll look forward to that. So, you know, thank you so much for being such a generous guest. And I mean that not frivolously, I mean that the care that you've taken to think about the questions, create your answers, think about things, be reflective, tell stories, share poetry with us. It's been a joy, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:31

Thank you, thank you again for the warm invitation. It's been an absolute joy, a pleasure, and an honour to be in community with you. And uh I look forward to many more encounters with you.