S15 E11: The One About The Pilgrimage To Karbala

This weekend, 5th / 6th July (10th Muharram), sees many Shia Muslims all over the world mark the Day of Ashura.  A commemoration of the martrydom of Muhammad's grandson, Husayn who died standing up for justice. In 2025 this fight is still poignant. Zam Hussain has already done an episode on Ashura which if you haven't listened then please do.  But this week he joins us to tell us about his own personal pilgrimage to Karbala to visit the grave of Husayn. In his moving, human and deeply spiritual account of this pilgrimage. We discuss;

• What the pilgrimage is and what happens
• The history of this pilgrimage
• How it links to Shia teachings
• The challenges faced and what practical things were put in place to support the pilgrims
• Fun stories along the way
• The emotions at the grave
• The impact of completing this pilgrimage

Zam has recently had a tattoo relevant to this pilgrimage - listen to find out more!

Please also look at this incredible thread with pictures alongside the episode to get a sense of what it looked like as Zam speaks

https://x.com/MrZHussain/status/1830714068795355512?t=5nJ_45aNpWkWl9gi4cbMug&s=08

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the RE podcast, the first dedicated RE podcast for students and teachers. My name is Louisa J. Smith, and this is the R.E. Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

The podcast for those of you who think RE is boring, which it is, and I'll prove it to you. My guest today is my friend and colleague and regular guest on the RE podcast, Samir Hussein. He just returned from a pilgrimage to Kabala over the summer. And after talking to him about it, the first thing I've been doing in my new notebook for my new job were the questions to complete this episode. Eight months later, we have finally found a time that we can do it. And so I'm really happy because I think it's come at quite a poignant time for both Zem and I and the RE community. So welcome back to the podcast, Sam.

SPEAKER_05 0:49

Thank you, Louisa. Great to be back as usual.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Do you want to just tell, for those people that are listening that don't know exactly who you are, just a little bit about who you are?

SPEAKER_05 0:56

Yep, so I've been working in RE for over 10 years as a head of department and RE teacher in secondary school, and I'm currently working with you as an secondary school RE consultant for a large multi-academy trust in London, which I'm loving and loving working with you as well, of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

And it's, you know, it's funny if we, you know, when we first sort of came into contact with each other probably, well, five years, six nearly six years ago now, you know, if someone had said to us, Oh, you might end up working together, we would have both been quite joyful about that, but weren't quite sure how that would work.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

So Yeah, no, no, no. It's really nice to be back. And obviously, I think you can say a lot of our conversations at work anyway, is like a podcast without you know, we always have these kind of conversations. It's time to record it now, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah. And actually, I probably just need to take my little uh recording device and just put it in our like um meetups.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

But it's I mean, it's such a privilege to work with you, and you know, I don't think anyone listening will be surprised that Sam is an incredible colleague and very wise and very inspirational. So it's a joy to work with you. Thank you, likewise. But what you're here to talk to us about is this pilgrimage that you completed last summer, and I think it's one that maybe not everybody knows about or knows a huge amount about it, even if they've heard of it. So can you just tell us about the pilgrimage you've done and what exactly it is?

SPEAKER_05 2:07

Yeah, sure. So to clarify to begin with, so obviously in the Muslim world, the pilgrimage that everyone is familiar with is the Hajj to Mecca, and that is obviously one of the five pillars of Islam, and something considered mandatory you have to do at least once in your life if you can afford it and are physically able to do so. The pilgrimage we're going to talk about today is not to be compared to the Hajj, it's a very different pilgrimage. It's not mandatory, it's not a pillar of Islam, it's something people like to do as an emotional journey. So the pilgrimage is to a city called Karaballah, which many of our listeners will know, is where the event of Ashura took place, where Muhammad's grandson Imam Hussein was killed on the day of Ashura. And the visitation of Karabalah is essentially where he is buried and where his grave is. And in the Shia tradition and the Shia culture, it is a very big deal to go there. So although it's not an obligation to go there, it kind of is in a sense, like in reality, like you must go there once in your life at least. Now, like Mecca, where I can compare, it's open 24-7 every day of the year. Obviously, at certain times of the year, it's busier, so Mecca is always open, but and Hajj time is 3 million people going there to perform the pilgrimage of Hajj. Likewise, Karabalah is open 24-7, but there are times of the year where it's quieter and times of the year where it's very, very packed. The two times where it's packed in the year is Ashura, so the day he was killed. So imagine you've got lots of people around the world who had to go there to be there on the day he was killed to be visit his grave. But the day it's the most packed is actually a day called Araba'in. Now Araba'in takes place 40 days after Ashura. Araba'in in Arabic literally means 40. Now the number 40 in the Islamic culture has got lots of significance. So you've got Moses spending 40 days in Mount Sinai. In Islamic spirituality as well, if you want to do a good habit, you do it for 40 days and it becomes part of your you know your being. And likewise in s in some Muslim cultures, 40 days is kind of the time given where when someone passes away, you spend 40 days and kind of mourning for that person before you can kind of move on if you can. So 40's got a big significance. Now, in this pilgrimage specifically, even though Ashura is the day where Imam Hussein was killed, the 40th day after he was killed, that's the day where many people across the world would visit his grave. And the reason behind it, there's a lot of symbolism behind it, lots of background behind it. Now, is it something that was done in original Islam? I'd say no. I can't find any evidence where 40 days after Hussein's death, a big pilgrimage took place. But something that came over time. What did happen though was for those who know the story, even if you don't know the story, once Hussein was killed in Ashura, his family members were taken captive and taken to Syria to be presented to you know the ruler of the time and humiliated in a sense. Forty days later was when they returned back to Karbala and they were able to kind of say farewell to the bodies and say goodbye and get that closure, you know, that their family members were killed. So what we do on this Arabain pilgrimage is almost mimic that we go to Hussein's grave on the 40th day after his death to honour his family who also went to visit him after 40 days. So this became a small tradition that people began to do, and then during the Ba'athist regime in Iraq, where Saddam Hussein was in charge, it became a banned pilgrimage, so it became very restricted and not many people could go, and people who wanted to go had to go very quietly. So the numbers you see today in the millions was you know, tens, hundreds in small groups would go. Once Saddam Hussein's regime fell in Iraq, it became a very big deal. Then you found millions of people every single year reviving this pilgrimage and making this pilgrimage uh and this walk towards Karabalah. And then you're talking now, in the modern last five-ten years, you're getting 25 million people a year going on this pilgrimage on Araba'in. So, again, not to compare, I'm not trying to show one is better than the other, but Hajj has got three million people as a cap because you have to kind of cap it in the sense there because rituals are done at the same time, they on the same day, and you have to have logistical issue there as well. This pilgrimage is 24-25 million people annually who go on this day or in that period, and then to be part of that is just phenomenal, it is literally a sea of people, and it involves a three-day walk. So, again, was this walk around back in the day? Probably not, because the family went from Syria to Iraq, so the walk we do is not the same walk. But essentially what you do is it's an 80-kilometer walk, which takes about three days to do. You start in the city of Najaf, and Najaf is where Imam Ali is buried, the first Imam in Shia Islam, and then you do a three-day walk towards Kabalah, it's 80 kilometers, and symbolically you're going to pay respect to the father of Hussein in his grave, and then you go towards his son in Karbala. So that's kind of it in a summary. It's got some background to it, there is some precedent for it, but it has developed over time into what it is today, which is a beautiful sea of people showing selflessness and devotion and spirituality towards the people going towards in the pilgrimage.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

So, what my brain is doing now is working out the math. So you're doing 80 kilometers in three days. You're doing over 25 kilometers in an entire day.

SPEAKER_05 7:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

So how long does that take each day to walk?

SPEAKER_05 7:17

So currently, Arabaein falls in the summer. Now, for those who can imagine, Iraq in the summer, we're talking 48-50 degrees Celsius during the day.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:28

It is very hot. Obviously, about 15 years ago, it fell in the winter when it was much colder. Obviously, the lunar calendar moves back 10 days every single year. So, in terms of daily, what we did this year and what happens currently is people walk during the night, they wouldn't walk during the day because it's too hot to walk during the day.

SPEAKER_04 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:45

So you are walking a good 10, 12 hours a day, but it does include breaks. So you'd walk a kilometre or two, then you'd sit down for half an hour, and then you keep doing that repeatedly until you find a place to stop off to stay for sleep and for food and that kind of thing. Yeah. So cumulatively, it is many, many hours. So technically speaking, you can do the whole walk in a day if you just don't stop.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:05

Which is possible physically, but not in that heat.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Not in that heat.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

So yeah, there's a lot of practicalities to think about. What's happened now, which is quite unique, and this it wasn't back in the day, they've kind of made a long road from Najab to Karaballah. So that road is dedicated to this walk. And it's weird because it's completely closed during the year. This road is like empty. But when Arabein starts, the road opens and it becomes a huge logistical thing where it's a pathway made for the pilgrims there. Now, this walk is 80 kilometers, but if you live in the area of Iraq and Iran, people walk from Iran as well because it's on the border, and that's you know, weeks of walking. And if you go from Basra, which is really, really, really far down into Iraq, that's another one-week walk. So people walk all over the country to Karbala. The traditional walk though is Najib to Karbala, 80 kilometres.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Gosh, okay. So obviously, this episode is um being aired on the Friday before Ashura, which is this weekend. And if you haven't listened to Zam's episode on Ashura, go back and listen to that because that will give you kind of the context of the significance of Kabbalah and the story of Hussein. But actually, as a Shia Muslim, what sort of Shia teachings are there that kind of inspire this? Because actually what you've said is it's not an obligation, but actually it kind of is a privilege, and it's a privilege that if you are a Shia Muslim, it's kind of honourable to take. But there's certain teachings within the Quran or within Shia Islam that kind of maybe inspire or motivate this pilgrimage in terms of how you remember the family of Muhammad.

SPEAKER_05 9:42

Sure. I think the overarching teaching, without labelling it, is love. It's an act of love. So as a Shia Muslim, I think with all Muslims, you know, that you interact with as well, I'm sure, you see this love towards Prophet Muhammad. There's a real devotion towards him, even saying things like peace be upon him after every time you mention his name, there's that love towards Prophet Muhammad. In Shia Islam, that extends towards his family as well in the same manner. So love for Muhammad as a prophet extends to his family as well, which includes the 12 Imams. So the main teaching I'd link this to from a practical point of view for teachers in the classroom, but also generally speaking, is actually the trickiest one because I'm pretty sure when you get to the 10 obligatory acts, the ones near the end are the ones people struggle with once you pass jihad. And there's one called Tawallah, and Tawallah is very hard to translate into English, but if you look at all the textbooks and all the translations of the word, Tawallah is an obligatory act in Shi'ia Islam, which means to show love and devotion towards Prophet Muhammad and his family. So Tawallah is an expression of you showing love towards Prophet Muhammad and his family. So in its most minimal form, it's you following Prophet Muhammad and his family. It's doing extra things like saying peace be upon him or peace be upon them after their names. But in its most purest and best form, this pilgrimage could be an expression of that because what you are doing is expressing the love towards Prophet Muhammad and his family by honouring his grandson in the way he was killed. So even the commemoration of Ashura itself, that is an expression of Tu Allah because me remembering Imam Hussein every single year on his death anniversary is an expression of me showing love towards Prophet Muhammad and his family. There's a very famous hadith which all Muslims kind of agree upon. So it's not a sunni-Ushia hadith, where Prophet Muhammad he holds his grandson in front of people and says, Hussein is from me and I'm from Hussein. Allah loves the one who loves Hussein. So you can see even in his lifetime when he was raising his grandchild, he showed to the Muslims that this grandchild of mine means a lot to me. And that phrase, not just he's from me, a grandparent would say that, but he says, I'm from him. So it shows that there's this deep spiritual connection in teachings, in likeness between Prophet Muhammad and his grandson. Any love you have towards me as a Prophet, you must extend to my grandson as well. So by me honoring Imam Hussein every single year, be on Ashura, be on the pilgrimage, be in any way possible, it's actually me extending my love towards Prophet Muhammad as well. Like in any relationship, if I kind of love someone, I'm gonna love their surroundings as well. So if I've got a best friend who's got a child, yes, I love my best friend, but I'm gonna take care of their child as well, and if something's wrong with their child, I'm gonna be there for them to help them. So likewise here, when I'm showing sorrow every single year for Imam Hussein, I'm actually expressing my condolences to him as well because he as a grandfather suffered, even though he passed away by then. But you know, I know in heaven he was watching what was happening there, and he mourns that as well in a sense, what happened to his grandson. So it's me sending my condolences towards him as well when I'm honoring his grandson every single year.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

That's really beautiful and very powerful. So you've talked a little bit about how the pilgrimage starts. So you will walk from Madjaf to Kabbalah, the 80-mile walk, and obviously that's going from the place of very love Ali, the first imam, to the place where Hussein is buried in Kabbalah, who was killed, and that is remembered in Oshura. Tell us a little bit more about what happens on the pilgrimage. Are there certain rituals you have to do? Are there certain things you have to do? What's the kind of journey that you go on from beginning to end?

SPEAKER_05 13:25

Absolutely. So the aim for the pilgrims is to be in Karbala by Urbain. Now you can either arrive there on the day or you can get there before, but you want to get there before Urbain and spend Arabain in Karaballah. Now, if you're a local, you live in Iraq, you kind of just go to Karbala on Urbain and just go back home because you're kind of a local. So the way it works is that you go to Najaf, Najaf, you spend a few days there because that is also a very holy city in Shia Islam specifically. The main seminary is there. If you want to become a Shia scholar, you know, the seminaries in Najab, it's a very scholarly city as well, and you honor Ali, and that's packed as well, by the way. I can't point to the amount of people that are there. It's like the whole world is there sometimes. I've been to Iraq off-peak as well, where it's much, much calmer. So seeing that contrast, which is kind of amazing. So you kind of go to Najib, you stay there for a bit in your hotel, and you kind of like rest up in a sense and prepare for the next few days, and then you get a coach or a bus that takes you to kind of the starting point of the walk, and then you start on the road. Now, what's interesting is that the road between Najev to Karabalah, there's poles. When I say poles, I mean like lampposts. And these lampposts, I think, are a hundred meters apart, and each one of them is numbered. So it's very practical in the sense that the group leader you're with, or the group you're with you like, right? We're gonna walk 50 poles and then stop, and then 50 poles again, then stop, and so on and so forth. Or if you're lost or you lose somebody, you can message them saying, I'm on poll number this, meet me there. So the polls are there to kind of break up your journey in a sense. So you start, you know, on pole number zero, and then there are, I think, one thousand and something poles by the end of the journey you go on. So yeah, you start the journey, and again, you're joining a seal of people walking in the same direction, and what you have to picture is that it's a very wide road, but on each side of the road are in English they're called tents. When I say tents, they're purpose-built buildings for this pilgrimage. Now, these tents have got any provision that you can think of possible that you need on this journey. So if you need a place to sleep, there's a tent to provide that's the main purpose of the tents. There's tea being served every five seconds by people, cold water, cold drinks, food of any sort, anything that you need is provided on that, and it's free by the way. So you can technically go on this pilgrimage for free if you just pay for your plane ticket and visa. You can go for free. You have a place to stay, eat, all that kind of stuff will be given to you. And essentially you're walking down this pathway, and the beautiful thing about this pilgrimage is that the people who are owning these tents or build these tents, they are begging you to come and get something from them. And they are offended if you say no to them. So even if, for example, they offer you an apple and you're not even hungry, they beg you, they might even follow you, like walk with you to say, please, please, please take this apple from me, just take something from me. And then you sometimes hear the background story of some of these people. So some of these people, they're actually in poverty, and any money they make in the year, they save towards building this kind of tent or buying something to provide to the pilgrims. I even saw, for example, not one person, but people giving that tissues. That was their token of appreciation for the pilgrims. Now you've got simple tents like that, you've got huge tents as well that are sponsored by countries or big, big, you know, rich people, where I didn't get to go inside it, but I saw I call it a tent, it was more of a building, it was a donut factory, and they would fry fresh donuts, ice them for you, and give it to you on your way to the pilgrimage. So any kind of thing you could think of, it was there. So from the grand, grand, you know, luxurious things like donuts at the time or a simple tissue, you'll be given on that pilgrimage. And again, the way they beg you, it's like, please, please, please. And then if you offer to pay them, it's even more offensive because they're like, no. What they want, and the reason behind this is what they want, if you ask them what you want in return, they say, when you get to Karbala, tell Hussein we gave you this. That's what we want. For them, the biggest blessing you could have is Hussein knowing that they served one of his pilgrims. And I don't want to sound arrogant or put myself on a pedestal, but this is the kind of the way you feel. Being a pilgrim is a very honourable thing there. So you're treated like a king. So if you're a pilgrim of Imam Hussein in Karbala at the time, you are the best thing on earth for them. So any provision they can give you is a bit of an honour for them. So part of it, when you realize that, you're kind of like, if someone offers you something, do take it from them because it'll really mean a lot to that person. So even if I, you know, I wasn't thirsty at the time, but someone offered me some water, I would take the water off them so that they feel like they've given me something. And obviously, when you get to Karbala, you remember these people and you pray for them that this person helped you on there. So essentially you're walking down this path. So every five seconds you're being stopped by something. Now, in the 50 degrees heat, it is very difficult, and you've even got people spraying you with water. And in a normal circumstance, with someone hosing you with water, it's very, very annoying. But in that instance, you're like, yep, hose me with all that you want. You're dry in five seconds anyway, because of the heat. So, yeah, every hundred poles or so, you'd stop, you sit in the shade in a tent for a bit, they'll bring you something to eat or food, whatever you might want at the time. You take a pit stop for like half an hour, and then you carry on walking, and you do that kind of over the day, and then there's specific places that are on the route where you can stop and actually sleep with air conditioned and all that kind of stuff. So, in the three days, we stop for two kinds of sleep, and again, for that, you're given you know a blanket, mattress, you know, there's bathrooms there, showers there, anything you want is there, they provide you food, they wake you up for prayer, and that's what you kind of do over the three days, and then it is very, very tiring. And on the third day, you know, I'm not gonna lie, it is very difficult, but the end is near, so you that energy that you get in the last day gets you towards the destination of Karaballah. And there's that, it's quite a famous sign now, but it's like when you get in Karabalah, there's a big sign that says, Welcome to Karbala, and that means you're in the city, and when you're in the city, you're like, Oh my god, I'm here now, and then there's a sign that comes up that says Imam Hussein shrine 1000 metres away, and that's like oh my god, I'm here now, and then that last bit dragged you to the end. So on that pathway, you've got everything that you want. I even saw like foot massages were being given for free to people. You've got hospitals and doctors being given to you, obviously, blisters at the time, and you've got people treating you for that. The best medical care that you can think of is given to you there, and we found this very, very funny. But anytime you were craving something from Britain, a few moments later, it just came to you. I remember I was with my dad, and my dad wanted Snickers. He's just craving Snickers. And in Iraq, you can't find Snickers, it's just not a chocolate let's find there. But about 10 minutes later, someone gave him the Snickers bar just out of nowhere. Yeah, it happens. And even like we was I really want some ice cream, obviously, in the heat, you know, having ice cream would be really, really nice. And there was a time where I love some soft serve ice cream, like a 99p flake, that type of one. And lo and hold, by five minutes later, we see a soft serve machine being giving you ice cream. So any kind of provision you want, is there any cravings there? And even like the best thing to kind of I know this is a taste of home, but just chips. You just want chips at the time. And again, you find people that are just frying fresh potatoes with some seasoning on it and just give it to you. So, like, any kind of thing you want, there's nothing there that I, you know, I was craving that I couldn't get at the time. So, coincidence, miracle, what you're gonna call it, it's just like main messages is like whatever you want is is given to you at the time, and yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful journey. And the thing is, and I'll give you some context as well. Last August, when I went, if you remember, the August that I went, it was the August slash July, where there were riots happening in the UK, the far-right riots. And I remember at the time when I wrote a bit of reflection on this, is like one week in Britain, the common phrase people like me were hearing was get out, you don't belong here, people of my colour, that kind of thing. Now, not directly, I never got that abuse myself, but you know, I could see that happening in the country in certain groups of people. And then one week later, the most common phrase I was hearing was welcome, welcome, come in. And just to see that contrast where I've got where I live is where people like me are being told by some people that you know you don't belong here, but I'm a foreign in another country, and they're saying, You belong here, stay here, come inside, and welcome, welcome, welcome. So just to see that juxtaposition between these two things that I experienced was also quite fascinating, and it kind of came at an interesting time because I've got this happening in my home country, but in A foreign country, I'm being made to feel like a king and welcome. And that path that you know at three day you just see the pure selflessness of humanity. So in one week I'm seeing kind of the worst side of people, but then it was cured by seeing the best side of humanity. And you know, we live in a time sometime where we do see the worst side of people sometimes, and it becomes you know the norm to see this, and it's always in the news. But that gave me a lot of hope in humanity that you know are there are really good people and they do anything for you if you just find them in the right places. I would think you find them in Iraq, because Iraq itself, you know, we think of it as a war-torn country with people who don't have the same way of thinking as as us. And Iraq is still rebuilding, it's been 20 plus years since the war ended there, and they are rebuilding, but with what they have, the look that they have, they give it to other people, and that's the beauty of that country and the self-instress of the people there, and there are beautiful people there.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Because we get stuck in a narrative, don't we, sometimes? In that there is a narrative around Iraq that possibly has been true in the past, but actually this counters that narrative and that changes, and so it's really nice to be able to shine a light on, you know, not just a beautiful experience as a pilgrimage, but also a country that is hospitable and welcoming and goes above and beyond.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

And I think, yeah, just as a counter-narrative to what people think about human nature, you know, that a lot of people think that humans are inherently selfish or bad, and actually, no, they're not, it's just they're the ones that get in the headline. And behind the headlines are this complete generosity of spirit. I just want to kind of get a sense of it, you know, it's really difficult to imagine 25 million people walking up this road with all of these tents and things like that. I think that's really difficult. But essentially, these tents are semi-permanent, so they'll go up for a period of time and then they are left empty or taken down or rebuilt.

SPEAKER_05 23:47

Yeah, they're taken down and left empty, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Gosh. And then so these people of, you know, from every walk of life, from the very poorest to the very riches, are taking that time out of the rest of their year to plan for this event in order to provide for you. And they're all doing it to the best of their ability. So everyone's giving the most amount that they can give.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

To kind of support it, it's just, you know, I can't think of any other context in which this happens, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Honestly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

You know, it's just, I mean, to to a lesser extent, the Camino de Santiago, where you have the little, you know, there's little free stalls every now and again, but actually, essentially, you have to pay for your accommodation and pay for your food and that it's just beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 24:28

Absolutely, yeah. And like you said, it's anything that they can give.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

And some of their background stories, you know, they've been doing it, you know, you see kids doing it as well. So, like, the kids are brought up in this, so they know when their parents are gone, they're going to carry on this tradition of serving the pilgrims. And you can see them training them up. And like, whether it's late at night, whether it's, you know, peak heat in the you know, noon of the day, there's people there just giving to you, and like they don't care about themselves. And that selflessness, I just can't, it will stay with me forever. And it makes you learn, you know, something about yourself as well, in the sense of when you go back to your country, can you offer that selflessness as well to other people? Can you do a portion of that at least for the people that you kind of serve in your jobs or community or whatever it might be?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah. And actually for those children, what a positive context to grow up in.

SPEAKER_05 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

You know, where one of the highlights of their lives, you know, of their years, is to be able to serve other people. Absolutely. And they take it quite seriously, don't they? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:22

So, yeah, I remember we're talking about it, yeah, and we can talk about it now, but like, yeah, the kids there, firstly, you know, we've got toddlers till like kids who are 10, some are teenagers, but they just stand there. We just call them angels because they look like angels and they behave like angels in the sense of they're just polite to you and they just give you something. And every time I took something from a child, or we took something from the child, you just have to give them a hug and a kiss on the head just to thank them for what they've done. You could tell they appreciate it because they feel the love from so many people. And even like giving a tissue, and there was even some kids which I wonder I never saw before, they just be holding this little thing in their hand, and when you look at what it is, it looks like a lipstick, but it's not lipstick, it's just perfume. And all you do is put your hand there and they'll rub the perfume on your hand just to give you a bit of perfume while you're walking. And even that meant so much to them. And obviously, I think with kids, you don't want to hurt their feelings, so when you do see one, you don't want to ignore them and walk past them because they'll be really, really hurt by it. So you really want to kind of go and take whatever they're giving to you. Because there were instances I saw where there was a kid once, and a few people walked past the kid, they didn't want what they were giving, and the kid got upset when they're their mum or dad and said, They're not taking anything from me. So kind of the parent put them back on their path, so don't worry, they'll take it. And then when you see that, like you have to take something something from them.

SPEAKER_04 26:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

And you can tell, like you said, they're raised in that culture, and you just know when they turn a bit older, it's gonna be passed on to them and they'll do the same thing their parents were doing. And yeah, as I said, whether it's bang, middle of the day, middle of the night, they were there and being selfless and just giving youths encouragement. And when you see young children like that serving you, again, it makes you put a mirror to yourself as well to say, can I do any better as an adult?

SPEAKER_01 27:00

It's really incredible, isn't it? And I think this is, you know, part of the privilege of being a teacher as well, is working with young people and seeing the best versions of them where they challenge your own moral compass and you know what you value and what you're investing your time in. I think that's lovely. And I think also probably for you, you know, the walking is physically demanding, but actually you're constantly being kind of supported. And actually that probably was very motivating as well.

SPEAKER_05 27:28

Absolutely, yeah. You need that.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

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SPEAKER_05 29:29

Yeah, so I would say that's the fourth time I've been to Kerabala, but the first time I've been during this peak season. I don't know, whether people believe me or not, when you enter Karbala, the city, even without a sign, I would know I'm there because of the way I feel. For me, it's a city of sorrow because of what happened there. I've said this in my previous podcast on Ashura, but I'll say it again. Shia Muslims, you know, I speak for all of us here, I can say it quite easily. You know, I know we don't generalize usually, but this one I can generalise. We're raised with this story, you're told it as a child, it means everything to you. And then when you begin to enter the land where that story happened, it's very hard to describe. So obviously Karbala now is not a desert, it's you know, there's buildings and high rises and things like that and hotels. So when you enter that part of Kerabala, you can't see Imam Hussein shrine to begin with. You have to navigate yourself through different roads and pathways before you get there. But the moment that will always stick with me is when I saw the dome for the first time. It was very, very far. I could see it glistening in the sunlight. And even though I was kind of emotional throughout the journey, and you know, there's times where you are happy and upbeat, and sometimes where you're down, when you entered Kerabala on that third day, you're emotionally very, very tired, and you're physically very, very tired. You know, at the time I remember I had like a wooden stick that I was using to walk on because my back had given. Because I someone said to me in our group that the human body is not made for this kind of walk and this kind of heat. So I consider myself a fit person, but when things don't begin to work on this walk, it's not your fault, it's just the human body's not prepared for this kind of stuff. You can do all the training that you want beforehand. Everyone's gonna suffer in this walk because the human body is not ready for this. But I remember just walking, and when you see that dome, I just I I broke down and I was broke down because I was tired, but I also broke down because this is why I'm here. I could have got a taxi here. It's very easy. It's interesting, it's an hour taxi drive from Najev to Karabala in reality, or a three-day walk. But we chose to do the walk, and anytime during the walk, if you get too tired, you get ill. We had people in our group who are elderly as well, who did a bit of the walk, then got a taxi to the hotel. But we did the walk, and you're like, had it been for any other reason, I would not have done this, and I'm now here. And then as you walk towards it, I remember I broke down and it was a very beautiful moment because you had me, my wife, my mum, my dad, my brother and sister. This is the first time kind of me and brother, sister, and my parents had travelled together for after a long time because we're adults now, and we did it as holidays as children. But going on a pilgrimage together was probably the first and last time we'd probably do it. And to be in that moment with them and to see the shrine in front of us, we all kind of had our arms around each other and were just supporting each other in terms of emotionally. We were all crying and just dragging ourselves towards it. And that was the moment, even though it was probably the hardest moment of my life, I call it the most beautiful moment of my life as well. Because I had all my loved ones around me, and I was in front of me was my beloved who is Imam Hussein, who just means everything to me, and whose story I've heard every single year. It's the man whose death I honour every single year, and paradoxically, even though it's a moment of pain, it's my favourite moment because here's why I'm here. So as you're dragging yourself towards the thing, and again, without taking the shine off it, practically speaking, you've got to think of it like a funnel. You've got millions of people are funneling towards the city and that place in the city. So Karabala is a big city anyway, but funneling towards his shrine, it's like sardines, you're packed, and you are riding the wave. Security there is very tight as well, so there are times where you have to go through a security checkpoint to get searched and before you go into the actual city, so you're funneling towards that as well. And once you get past that, you just see the wave of people, the assault on your senses in all directions. The sound, I always say Shia Islam is a sound, it's not a belief, it's a sound. You have to hear Shia Islam, and the best voice of Shia Islam is in Keraballah. You just hear every single noise you can think of that you associate with Shiaism, prayers, mourning, poetry, drums, it's all there in that vicinity of the city, and you just see people pouring their way into that city. And well, you can't do obviously, you I couldn't straight away go into the shrine. You have to kind of go to your hotel, you know, change your clothes and all that kind of stuff as well. But just setting my eyes on the shrine for the first time, even though I've seen it many times in my life, that moment when you see it, it's just it all becomes worth it. And you're like, every single blister, you know, my my harmed back, all the heat that I've been through, it's nothing for you. I will do it again and again and again for you because that's what it means. So, as with all pilgrimages, I think the physical aspect is very important. I think walking somewhere or physically going somewhere and the demands of that physicality does play a part in the pilgrimage process, I think. And I think it manifests when you get to the place, and I think I felt that manifestation there. And then you kind of become conscious and aware of where you are. You're like, I'm stepping where he stepped, and I'm walking where he walked, and where was he walking at this time? Was he walking here? And you just flatten the image in your head of a desert that it was at the time, and you think, okay, this is where it was, this is where this happened. You say, Yeah, it's a very, very emotional experience, and you know, talking about it, recollecting it makes me emotional as well right now, but that will stick in my head forever, that moment, and I don't think it'll ever be topped.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

And I think you know, there's so many beautiful symbols within this. There's a reason why for thousands of years people have gone on pilgrimage, and that that isn't a ritual that has ever died, that there's something very, very powerful about walking, particularly taking a journey connected to a story that is so powerful.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

I think the other thing is that kind of metaphorical understanding of it, you know, not only about journeys being difficult, and actually you've got to kind of push through that difficulty in order to achieve whatever it is you need to achieve. But I really love what you said that actually it was kind of the most difficult thing you do, but the most beautiful. And I think so many people that have struggled, whatever the cause of that struggle in their life, there is a moment where you suddenly see that struggle as something that's beautiful because you see what it has led to. Whether you're Muslim or not, whether you're Shia or not, whatever your worldview is, I think everybody can relate to that human experience of the beauty in the struggle or the beauty in the breakdown. I think that's really powerful. But particularly, I think for you and for other Shia Muslims, the connection to that story, yeah, which adds that kind of extra beauty and power, I think.

SPEAKER_05 36:13

Absolutely. And I think another thing to add, you reminded me, I think a part of this pilgrimage is defiance as well. And again, if you look at the politics of this pilgrimage, where it was banned for a long, long time, you know, people used to get killed going on this pilgrimage by the Ba'aza regime in Iraq. So many people lost their life for this pilgrimage as well. And defiance is a very big deal. So I remember when the pilgrimage began to first reopen after Saddam's fall, and it became big. And then we had the incident or the time where ISIS began to dominate parts of Iraq. And one of the things on their manifesto was to kind of destroy Kabala and destroy the Shias in Iraq. And I remember the first Araba'een that took place since ISIS took over, it was the biggest one in history. So what people did was like, if you want to stop this, more of us will come. And it became a thing of, yep, come on then, we'll go then. It's weird with Shia Muslims sometimes where the more danger there is, the more people will go. Because there's that symbolism as well, where if you're going to die, dying in Keraballah on the way to Hussein, there's no better place to die and no better way to die. Because that man himself was killed for you know an unjust cause or standing up for a just cause in a sense. And if I'm gonna be killed or whatever, in the cause of Hussein, then what bigger honour for me? So the more dangerous it becomes, the more people began to go, and it became an act of defiance in a sense. So even that in itself, it's a big peaceful protest that takes place against any injustice in the world. So that in itself as well, the spirituality side of it as well. But I think politically and this defiance nature of it as well, I think also stands out to me that people will go no matter what. And even in history on people, it was a banned pilgrimage. The fact that people still went and were, you know, were killed for it, it just shows that it won't be stopped.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

So can I I don't want to focus on this because this is not the point, but the reason that it was banned, what was the narrative around that? Was it a Shia discriminatory kind of act, or was there other reasons behind it?

SPEAKER_05 38:14

Yeah, absolutely. So Saddam Hussein was very, very anti-Shia essentially. He knew the power of Shiaism and he knew the history of Shia'ism in that country, and the way to quell any kind of Shia uprising or any kind of Shia practice would be to discriminate against this pilgrimage specifically. So while Karaballah was open, it was a very different type of pilgrimage. My parents went in the late 90s when not for Arabain, but they went to Karaballah a few times in the late 90s when he was in charge. And the restrictions in place there was huge. So if they saw you even crying or showing emotion there, they're a soldier there kind of stopping you.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

And you know, you know, you heard it like sheep sometimes there. So the freedom to show your emotion there wasn't there, and if they saw any kind of not uprising, but any kind of fervor, they'd quell it straight away. And yeah, the people there are still scarred by that.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah, Saddam Hussein was called the Aziz of our time, right? There you are, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:09

That's it's called the Yazid of our time. And yeah, you know, there are people still there who don't know where their family members are who were taken away by him. And at the time as well, you know, the people who lived there, they tell you, you know, there was that sense of the walls have ears, so everyone couldn't trust anybody because if you're one of his people, you're a spy, and if you've you know were openly Shia, you could be discriminated against, or you worst case, killed. So when he fell, that release that happened afterwards, you know, I think 15 million people went there, I think the year after, straight away. It just became an open thing where people could go there now. So and again, very important to mention as well when I was there, every walk of life was there. So even though it's a Shia pilgrimage, I saw many Sunni Muslims there. There's a big Christian community in Iraq as well, the bishops there go to Karabala as well. So everyone goes there. Lots even people like bloggers and vloggers who are, you know, have these touristy YouTube channels, they go there as well. Everyone's welcome there and made to feel welcome there. So it's very different to what it was like 20, 30 years ago compared to what it is today.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

And then contrasting that to Hajj, where it's not quite as different, yeah. But also, I think there's a poignant irony in the whole story of Kabbalah and Hussein is about standing up against injustice. You know, and that quote that you shared with us last time of that, you know, every land is Kabbalah and every day is Ashura. The the sort of poignant irony of trying to ban something which is standing up against injustice actually is gonna kind of you know galvanize and strengthen a community because that's the whole essence behind the whole story of Hussein is about the underdogs essentially, isn't it? And those that are oppressed standing up against injustice. And so by trying to ban it, it's kind of proving the point of necessity.

SPEAKER_05 40:58

Yeah. In the Shia world, Imam Hussein is such a powerful symbol, and his ideology can break empires, it can make revolutions happen, and he is our heartbeat. So, as you mentioned, that phrase that people use, every land is cryable with Dez Arshura, is something that we kind of live by in a sense. It's just like he can get his way of thinking and his movement can get you through anything, and it's very, very powerful. I believe it's a wave you can't stop if you've got that. It's really, really an important symbol for us.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah, and that's what I said at the beginning that it feels a very poignant time to do this episode simply because of the amount of injustice that we're kind of seeing, and we're seeing groups of oppressed people having their rights taken away.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

But also, I think personally in the RE community, I think you know, there is a sense of grief within us. And I think to see how grief can connect people together and find beauty, I think is a really powerful symbol. So I want to kind of move on to that moment. So you've arrived in Kabbalah, you go off, you have your rest, you go back into your hotels, and then there's that moment where you're going to approach the grave. So just talk us from that moment.

SPEAKER_05 42:06

Yes, so get to the hotel, you you know, get dressed, all that kind of stuff, shower rest. I then fainted in the hotel, by the way, so from exhaustion. I was wiped out for a day anyway. But it's in a sense, yeah, in a sense, you're like, you might need that rest just to charge you up. So now my hotel, you could see like the grave from there. It's like a literally opposite the grave. Um again, that five-minute walk becomes a half an hour walk because of the amount of people that are there. There's a practicality thing as well to think about. So there's lots of people there, it's very emotional, and that drags you into the thing. So you go into the grave, and maybe it's my fault I didn't talk about it much, but what's very important to know is that you've got Hussein's grave, but you also got his brother's grave. So every if you ever Google Karaballah as the images, you'll see two mosques there that are quite near to each other. There's one big one with the dome, another big one with the dome as well. And some people ask, Well, are they two shrines? Well, one shrine is for Hussein and the other shrine for his brother. His brother's called Abbas, who is buried separately from him.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Okay. Did he also die in the Battle of Karbala?

SPEAKER_05 43:10

He also died in Karabala, yeah. And he was the commander of his armenist flagbearer. So he's also a very important part of Shia mythology and culture because he is seen as uh an example of how to be loyal to Hussein, because he was the most loyal person towards Hussein. And what you do traditionally is something I've learnt since childhood is that when Hussein was alive, if you wanted to meet him, you had to go through his brother first. His brother was like his bodyguard. So symbolically, again, before you go to Hussein, you go to his brother first, and you almost symbolically ask his permission that can I go and see Hussein before, you know, after I see you. So you go to his brother's shrine, which is again as packed as you can think of, and that in itself is beautiful. And then you go towards the grave of Hussein. Interestingly, I I don't call it coincidence, but you know the two mountains in Mecca, Safa and Marwa.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

The walk seven times. The distance between Hussein and Abbas is the same. Exact same distance. Safa and Mara, yeah, exact same distance. So go there, you walk then towards Hussein. Hussein shrine is even more packed, of course, because people are always going towards there. And when you're inside, you do just see people. Um, you see his glistening grave from afar, which you can see, but you just see people. Now, practically speaking, in Shia teachings, you don't have to touch his grave. When you're in Karabala, that's enough. You've done his pilgrimage. But obviously, when you're there, you want to touch his grave because you've come all this way and you want to touch his grave and receive the blessings of that energy that place holds. So you kind of walk towards, and it is, even though it's chaos, it's ordered chaos, there's people there who work for the shrine and they make sure there's kind of crowd control and a flow happening. They've made one-way systems as well, where you can walk certain ways, can't walk certain ways. But essentially, once you get towards that courtyard of his shrine, you are then going with the crowd, you have to commit. So you, if you're gonna go in there, you've got to commit, you can't get out otherwise. And I'm claustrophobic sometimes as well in this situation. I'm like, you know what, it's fine. So you kind of go in and you go with the crowd, and essentially, you can't walk towards the grave, you're kind of pulled towards it by the people. And sometimes you're being pushed back, sometimes you're pushed forward. But when you slowly, slowly, slowly, you're gonna get there. And when you get there, and again you see the beautiful shrine in front of you, you try and grab it, you try and touch it, which I was able to do a few times. And again, one thing you're taught as a Shia Muslim is that when you go to Imam Hussein's grave, don't think of him if he's dead. So when you hold his grave, you're holding him, and when you're hugging it, you're hugging him. And when you think of that in your head, you start crying even more that I'm hugging you, like because you're there. And again, one of the misconceptions about Shia Islam is that Shia Muslims worship the Imams and worship graves. That's not the case whatsoever. We just believe that there's certain places in the world where there's energy where God's mercy is even more present than it is in other places, and that's one of the places that are there. We also believe, for example, that the angels, you know, in the GCC spec, we just know Mikael and Jibrael. We might talk about the angel of death, we might talk about the scribes, we might talk about the people in the grave. But in Shia Islam, there's many, many more angels, and there's specific angels whose job it is just to go to Hussein's grave and pray for the pilgrims. That's their job for eternity. So you're aware that you're in this place, Hussein is there, angels are coming from heaven to send their blessings upon you and pray for you. We also believe, for example, that even Prophet Muhammad, his daughter Ali, they come to visit Hussein as well on this time. So you just become aware that I'm actually in the presence of angels, I'm in the presence of God's mercy, I'm in the presence of Hussein, and Prophet Muhammad's here as well, his daughter's here, Ali's here, and the other Imams are here as well. Once you manifest that in your head, you become aware of where you are. And then you look at the people around you who are crying emotional. One of the things I love to do, I do it every single time I go to Keraballah, if I can ever find space, I sit by the door, the door that enters the shrine. And what I do is I just look at the people walking in. I could do that for hours. So there are times where I sit there for hours and I look at every single person walking in, and seeing every single person's different reaction as they walk in to me is really special. So I could tell who's first time, I can tell who comes in every single day, I can just tell, and I could see every single person's journey. And when I sat by the door and just looked at people come in, it's like, oh my god, someone from India, Indonesia, I've got Saudi, I've got UK, I've got Americans, I've got every single walk of life coming in, and everyone's reaction is very, very different. Some are crying, some are on their knees, some are crawling, some can't even look at his grave because they're too overwhelmed, and that is very beautiful because I see every walk of life coming to honour this one man, because that's what he deserves. And that's it essentially. So once you've done that, you've kind of done the pilgrimage. While you're incredible, I was there for another week, I think. You just go there every single day when you can, and you just spend every single minute you can in the shrine. Because for me, whenever I come back to England, my biggest regret is always I didn't spend enough time in the shrine. Even if I spent 24 hours there, it wasn't enough time there. So that was interesting. I was also fascinating as well is that you bump into people who you know in England or other countries who in the millions of people there, you bump into them. Oh, what are you doing here? Oh my god. Um, and you say hello to them and you speak to them as well. So you recognize people as well, which is really, really cool sometimes. So yeah, it's very, very profound, and rituals-wise, there's nothing you have to do there. You can recite a salutation towards Hussein where you send peace upon him. But for me, this is personal to me, I guess. What I like to do, and again, when you go to Keraballah, all your family members will tell you when you go there, can you pray for me? Can you pray for this? Can you pray for this for me? I want a child, I'm going through this illness. Can you pray? You pray for these people, of course. But you sometimes go with a list in your head of things you want to ask God there for in the presence of Imam Hussein. But when you get there, that list in your head disappears. And all you say is thank you. That's all I can say. I say thank you. That's the one thing I say. The second thing I say is, how dare me be here? What do I deserve to be here? Who am I? So you feel like gratitude towards that person who gave his life. Also, who on earth am I to be here? I don't deserve to be here. I'm a nobody compared to you. I don't deserve to be one of your people. That's my overwhelming emotion there. So I don't do any rituals there. I just sit and reflect. I just think. I think about who he was, I think about what he did for me, I think about what I can do for him when I come back to England, and I'm just grateful to be there because I know there are millions of people who wish they were here, and I'm someone who's here. And my mum you always tells me that, just she goes, remember, if you're there, it means he invited you. So don't think you don't deserve to be there because he invited you. And if he invites you, it means you deserve to be there. So that stuck with me as well. I was like, what have I done to be there in your presence? And you feel ashamed to be there because you know, you just think that part of the overwhelming emotion that you feel for Shia Muslims, the reason why we go there as well is like we weren't there a thousand years ago, but if we were there, we'd be standing by your side, giving our life up for you. So the fact that I can't do that then, I'm doing it now, that I'm in your presence now, and on judgment day, I want you to testify to God that this person was was one of your people, so that we can have that salvation in the afterlife, that we're one of your people being there. So lots of emotions there, lots of rituals you can do, and some people do do rituals, but for me, it's about reflection, introspection, and just remembering how grateful you are to be there.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

So there's that real sense of gratitude, but also humility.

SPEAKER_05 50:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

You know, and I think they're two very powerful emotions. But what I really love from what you've just said is that linked to that humility, you can't walk yourself there. You know, because it's so crowded that the crowd takes you and it takes you at a slower pace as to what you would go. So your ego disappears and your ambition disappears, and it's the community that takes you in a very slow way. And sometimes you go back and sometimes go forward. And I think that's a really powerful symbol of something very profound in terms of yeah, just not being able to take yourself there. And I think that adds to that sense of humility as well.

SPEAKER_05 51:17

That's very profound. I wish I thought of that whilst not getting back in the face then.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

And also the juxtaposition of physical discomfort, and as you say, being hit in the place and probably people treading on your toe and jostling you around and you know, you losing your place and being moved backwards and things like that. But if you contrast that to the beauty of the shrine, I think.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

I mean, what I'll do is I'll put an image as part of the material that goes out. What did you call it? You said glistening, you used the word glistening earlier. It really is quite physically spectacular, I would imagine. And you talked about your sense of sound, but actually the visual sense, I would imagine, looking at this shrine is quite magnificent.

SPEAKER_05 52:01

It feels like someone described it to me, and I agree. When you're there, when you're in the shrine itself, it feels like lots of bees buzzing. And what's happening is that every single person is having their own conversation with Imam Hussein. And every single person feels like he's got their attention. So even though there's thousands of people there honouring him, saying things to him, you know, whatever they want to say to him, everyone's got different language, different way of doing it. Some people are saying it with humility, some people are saying it with expression. And it's like, wow, that's a different kind of atmosphere that you never experienced before.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

One thing I was gonna say, something I was thinking about, that the maybe misunderstanding of Shia Islam that it grave worships or or whatever it worships a human. But you were saying actually it's just a place on earth where you feel much more connected to Allah and to the angels and to, you know, the natures of Allah. Is that comparable to what Christians might say is a thin place? If they go to Iona, if they go to these places of great natural beauty, it's not that God is more present there, it's that actually there's space to really connect to God. Do you think Kabalah has got that similar thing of being a thin place where there's sort of the barrier between Allah and humans, heaven and earth is thinner?

SPEAKER_05 53:21

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. And I just think the Quran talks about houses that Allah is honored on this earth and places he's honored on the earth, and that's just one of those places. So, I mean, you can't tell me, like, let's say for a Christian, if they are in Jerusalem on Good Friday versus in Britain, I'm sure in Jerusalem they'll feel much more spiritual and much more presence of Jesus there because that's where he was killed and where he lived, you know what I mean? So likewise here, I'm in the UK and being in Kerabbalah, I'm gonna feel connected towards God more in Kerabbala because there are angels there, his presence is there more. And even if I go strip it back, the Kaaba, you can't tell me for a Muslim that being in Mecca versus being in the UK feels the same. You just feel God's presence is there more in Mecca because his house is there. So it's a place where that God is honored, I believe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

And I think, you know, it's interesting, you know, I am not a religious person, but I've been to a lot of places of either religious or social significance and had spiritual moments. So I know when I went to Varanasi and went to the river Ganges, there was an energy there, there was there a shift of energy as you walk down the steps towards the river Ganges and Varanasi. And it made no logical sense because it really is not a very pleasant place at all, and there's it's very sewery and there's litter everywhere, and it's not very nice, but actually there's something like that. There was an emotion, you know, and I think that whether you are Muslim or not, whether you're Shia or not, whether you're religious or not, there is a human experience whereby things have significance and are emotional. And I think we can all relate to that, you know, regardless. I think that there are places which have significance, which are beautiful, which you can't explain logically. So, you know, I think if you're not sheer Muslim, it doesn't mean that you can't connect to the experience that you had, because I think there is so much more to this world to experience than what is just provable and tangible.

SPEAKER_03 55:18

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

What impact do you think this has had on you? Because it's it's such a profound experience, you know, sensory, spiritually, you know, physically. What was the impact of having completed this pilgrimage?

SPEAKER_05 55:30

I would say I think it's an imprint in my mind, I would say, and in my soul, in the sense of even though, again, I repeat this all the time, I honour him every single day. He's my role model, he's my inspiration, he's my hero. But when I honour his death every single year on Ashura in England, that in itself is powerful. But then going there, the impact of it is still gonna be gratitude. I'm just so grateful for what he's given me, what he did, and every single thing he stood up for is something that I take with me. So I think the impact on me, I always believe that anytime you go on a special journey, it should change you in some way for the better when you come back to your hometown. And I just think that sense of selflessness stuck with me quite a bit. And just remembering that it made me think life is temporary for some reason, that you know, that not to get worried about too many things, is that you know things will pass. And I think the biggest thing is the word legacy. When I think of the word legend and legacy, I see it manifested in that man there, even though not many people know about him in the world, you know. We know about ancient Greek philosophers, we know many, many other people. I do feel his name should be in that bracket as well, where people, every human knows who he is. But I just feel like I come back thinking, what have you done for the world? And how will people remember you? So that's something that motivates me quite a bit, in the sense of when I leave this world, um, have I left some kind of impression on people that's positive, where they remember me in a in a positive light. And secondly, I guess I want to come back being an ambassador for him. That any goodness that is seen in me by people will be attributed towards him because it comes from him. Any good that I do is because of him and because of his teachings and because of his legacy. That's I'd say the main impact for me. And just that whole I think when I daydream ever during the day, my mind's always there. So there's that mental impact as well where I always think about that.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

In retrospect, when you look back at this time, so you're now sort of, you know, nine months on from this trip, and obviously it's not the first time you've been or anything like that. What do you think that you've learned? What have you discovered as you look back on that?

SPEAKER_05 57:39

I think it does give me hope in the world that there's goodness out there. I just feel like more people need to know about this. I don't mean it from a preacher sense, I'm not a preacher person at all. I just feel like if you know about this pilgrimage, it can actually make you reflect on yourself. Any human being can benefit from it, whether you go in it or just know about it. So this is one of those things I want people to know about. That's why doing this podcast is very, very important. Also, it's a good way for me to just talk about my thoughts because I talk about it with people, you know, who understand me in a sense, or the same worldview as me, you could say. But it's nice to talk about it openly to a different kind of audience.

SPEAKER_04 58:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:18

Because I just think this one man can cause people to do such good things. Surely there's something in there that we can all learn from.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

100%. And actually, one thing that's really lovely that we've done this episode now and didn't do it before, because actually you've just, and when I say just, I mean a week ago, finished a half-sleeve tattoo to kind of try and somehow mark things that are significant to you that are very much linked to this pilgrimage. Can you just talk us through the tattoo that you've had and the significance it has?

SPEAKER_05 58:48

Yeah, so I think if I had gone on the pilgrimage or not, I would have got this kind of tattoo, but obviously going on the pilgrimage made me want to do it even more. So, yeah, I have got a large forearm tattoo that I've just done, and essentially it's an honouring of Karbala, and a couple of quotes that mean quite a lot to me. So one quote says, I saw nothing but beauty. That is a profound quote to me because it's esoterical, it's mystical, but also profound. So that was actually said by Hussein's sister. So once she was taken to Syria as a captive after Ashura, she was asked by Yazid, the ruler of the time. He kind of mocked her and said, How how do you see what I've done to you and your family? And rather than saying, I'm this straw, I'm this, she saw I saw nothing about beauty. And part of me is like, Did she see the future? Did she see what would happen to her brother in terms of how the world honour her honour her brother? So I like that quote quite a lot. So I've got that and I've got a picture of the dome, I've got, you know, the cage with his shrine and an angel coming towards the dome to signify the fact that angels come there. And on the other side of my forearm, I've got an honouring of his brother, Abbas. So Abbas was very famous about him, is that as you probably know, Imam Hussein was starved with water for three days before he was killed. So on the day of Ashura itself, Abbas was able to get to the river and fetch some water for his family and he himself was thirsty and he held the water in his hand and he goes through a conversation with himself where he says, in essence, I will never drink water before my brother. This is not gonna happen because I'm so loyal to my brother. So he said this famous piece of poetry where he says, O self, after Hussein, you have no importance as he held that water. And that for me is a summary of what I want to be, that when I speak to myself, you are not important after Hussein, that he's the most important thing. So I've kind of got an image of two palms holding water and that quote above it. So it's kind of a storytelling of the Ashura story, a couple of my favourite quotes, and yeah, you know, you know me, you know, I wear rings as well. So I like to show my Shi'ism sometimes, and I like to things that look like remind me of that. So even my rings are symbolic of Ashura and of Imam Hussein. So having a tattoo on my arm as well is also something permanent that I will know I'll never regret this because it's something that will remind me forever of my pillars, but also what this man means to me. So yeah, people express themselves in different ways, and I know tattoos are a way people express themselves, and I chose to do it this way. I know just to clarify, I know you might ask.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

You can read my mind.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:10

Yeah, yeah. You don't find very often Muslims getting tattoos, yeah, which is the case. And again, with any kind of laws in Islam, especially something modern like tattoos, there's a difference of opinion.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:21

In mainstream Sunni Islam, tattoos are seen as forbidden or haram, for whatever reason that might be. In Shia Islam, many scholars do allow tattoos. It's not recommended, but it's not seen as haram by most people, with some restrictions, so you can't, for example, get a Quran verse in Arabic tattooed on your arm, or the name of Muhammad or the Imams in Arabic on your arm, because obviously, as you know, if you want to touch a Quran versus in Arabic or their names in Arabic, you have to be in the state of wudu. And because you aren't in the state of wudu all the time, something permanent on your body like that will not be appropriate. So as long as the tattoo is not disrespectful towards them or doesn't break those rules, it's generally seen as allowed. So um I did do my due diligence before getting my tattoo.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Yeah. You know, and I think little things like that for me as an RV teacher, it humanizes religion. Because I think sometimes we don't sanitize it, but I think we simplify it. And actually, it's things like this that bring a faith alive and bring lived experiences alive and helps us to get insight into the lived experience of people following faith. So I think that's really fascinating. What would be really helpful, I think, because I think this has been a really beautiful insight into your lived experience, into the significance of this pilgrimage. But I think it'd be really lovely to now to sort of link it back to the curriculum and sort of give some like practical suggestions of how we might weave this knowledge into our curriculums. So what would you suggest to people?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:46

Sure. So I know, for example, primary schools generally who do thematic units do stuff in pilgrimage. So it'd be a really nice way to show a pilgrimage, a different type of pilgrimage. Obviously, Hajj, again, I'm not in any way devaluing Hajj at all by anything that I've said in this podcast, but Hajj is something you study at GCSE. Islam is studied quite a lot. Maybe using this as an as a different type of pilgrimage in Islam that exists would be quite cool. I know, for example, Oak Academy and Adam have done some work on this topic in their key stage two, I'm gonna say, curriculum on Oak Academy. So do check out their lesson on that because I did some reading and some proofreading for them on that. And I think going further into your your key stage three and GCSE, I think even though the GCSE talks about Ashura on the specification as part of festivals and commemorations, I think showing how Shia Muslims honour Hussein, this is one way to show that. And as I mentioned, as teachers struggle with the last four obligatory acts in Shia Islam in the GCSE, I think the best manifestation of Tawallah is this pilgrimage because you are seeing love and devotion towards Prophet Muhammad's family as well. But also the idea of Sadakah. So we've got zakah, as we know, and Khumsa's two fixed kinds of giving. Sadakah, as you know, isn't a very open type of charity. It can be a good deed or it could be a monetary thing. So the three days that I walked down that pilgrimage, I saw the most best forms of Sadiqah I've ever seen in my life. I've got self-served ice cream, I've got tissues, I've got perfume, without any reward being asked of me. So the idea of giving can be taught in this pilgrimage as well. And I just think the idea of the Ummah as well, the Shia Ummah, but also the Ummah wider as well, where everyone's welcomed in this pilgrimage. Very, very important. And I think lastly, again, GCSC, top of my head, Imamate. I think the fact that Imam Hussein is one of the Shia imams is one of the big reasons we do this pilgrimage because it's not a normal man we're honouring, we're honouring someone chosen by Allah to lead the Muslims at the time who was killed in a very brutal way. So again, you've got manifestation of that belief coming into practice in this pilgrimage as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

And I think it's always really lovely to have a really dynamic answer to those four mark influence questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Because I think, you know, sometimes we do tend to, the interests of time and simplicity, simplify those answers. You know, they will fill this or they'll do that. To actually have a really dynamic example of the influence of a belief in the imamate, I think it would be really, really powerful for children because they then see the value in the question.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

Rather than it just being a sort of a tick-bock exercise. So I think, yeah, if you're creating a key stage two curriculum and there's a thematic thing on pilgrimage, or even if you are looking at Shia Islam, use that oak national lesson as I don't know if it's widely available yet, but will be coming soon, on Kabbalah. If you're doing a key stage three curriculum, then I think this is something to bring in because I think what we've got to be very careful not to do is repeat in key stage one, two, and three things that they're going to do quite a lot at GCSE. So I think this is a really good example to use, but it also does really complement and fit very nicely into those um exam specs at key stage four as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

You know, and I think also RE is bigger than just curriculums and syllabuses. There is a meaning to this pilgrimage that I think is really. Powerful. And I think if we're kind of looking more at like personal knowledge and personal reflections, there's so much to bring out of this that can you know help students to unpack the human experience and what life is like. I think that it's a really impactful story to tell as well. Just as we close, Sam, is there anything else that you'd like to say? Sort of any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:22

I've said a lot this podcast, but yeah, I think my main message to people is do look at this pilgrimage and just know about it and be aware it exists. Um I think the largest peaceful gathering on earth, not being known by many people, is something that's a bit of a travesty. So I think it's very important that people research the pilgrimage. There's many things out there. As I mentioned, in the age of social media, lots of vloggers go there now and you know vlog about this pilgrimage. And I think maybe when you put this out, we can maybe put my Twitter thread or X thread which I made on this for teachers that could be seen by people, yeah, share some images and what I went through every single day kind of thing, almost like a narrative. Um so yeah, be aware of it and take something from it, I guess, is very, very important.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

Yeah. Sam, thank you so much. I as always, my life is always made better when I have a conversation with you. And I think your passion for something that is so wholesome and beautiful and impactful and positive in a world where there isn't always those things put front and centre is always inspiring. So thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:28

Noah, thank you for having me as always.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this has been the R.E. Podcast. The podcast for those of you who think RE is boring, but it's not. It helps us focus on gratitude and humility. But thank you so much for listening to us all the life out of you.