S17 E1: The One About Becoming An RE Teacher

This episode of the RE Podcast explores the importance of RE in today's society, addressing the misconceptions surrounding the subject, the current recruitment crisis, and the exciting future for aspiring RE teachers. The conversation features insights from experienced educators and new teachers, highlighting the diverse backgrounds of RE teachers and the critical role of RE in fostering community cohesion and critical thinking among students. The episode also discusses funding opportunities for those interested in pursuing a career in RE and emphasises the supportive nature of the RE community.

Funding

https://www.cstg.org.uk/funding/individual/

Karen's blog

https://www.worcester.ac.uk/about/news/academic-blog/education-blogs/how-you-can-make-a-difference-as-an-re-teacher.aspx

God - A very short introduction

https://academic.oup.com/book/484

Religion and Media Centre

https://religionmediacentre.org.uk/

https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1295498/episodes/11254078-s7-e2-the-one-about-religion-media-centre

National Content Standard

https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1295498/episodes/14530622-s11-e9-the-one-about-the-national-content-standard

Curriculum And Assessment Review https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1295498/episodes/18179527-curriculum-and-assessment-review-special

Routes to becoming an RE Teacher

https://www.cstg.org.uk/campaigns/teacher-recruitment/becoming-a-teacher/

Get into teaching (DfE)

https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/life-as-a-teacher/explore-subjects/religious-education

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:00

This episode of the Army Podcast is sponsored by Reimagining Education, an organization dedicated to making learning inspiring, relevant, and future focused. Just like this podcast, they're passionate about exploring life's big questions and helping both students and teachers thrive. Find out more at reimaginingeducation.uk. A huge thank you to Reimagining Education for supporting the podcast. Welcome to the R.E. Podcast, the first dedicated RE podcast for students and teachers. My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this is the RE Podcast. The podcast for those of you who think RE is boring, which it is, and I'll prove it to you. Now I wonder if any of you listening have ever thought about being an RE teacher. Or maybe you know someone who you think would make a great RE teacher. But what are the barriers to this? What are stopping people taking up this career? Maybe it's because you think you have to be religious to be an RE teacher. Wonder how relevant RE is even today in 2025? And is it, as I suggest, just really boring? Well, we are looking for great people to become RE teachers. And this episode is to give you a little bit of an insight into what it's like to be one and where it can lead in your career. Plus, we're going to break down some of those misconceptions. Now, in order to do this, I've invited an incredible group of people onto the podcast. So, first of all, we've got someone in their early career, we've got someone who's a bit more of an experienced teacher and is now running an RE department. We've got people that are training, we've got mentors to people that we are training, and then we've got Karen Still. Now, Karen Still is an RE advisor and she oversees, and I've got to get this right, the PGC course at Worcester University. Now, I want to be quite honest and upfront with anybody listening here that we're making this episode because there is a problem. Not enough people are choosing to be RE teachers, and we're in a recruitment and retention crisis, and we wanted to do something positive to address that problem. And I'm talking from experience of being an RE teacher and what a great privilege it is to teach this subject. And I kind of feel like, and I know the people that are on this episode with me feel the same. That I feel like I have this kind of secret, and I want to share that with you. Just that kind of knowledge and insight of what it's like on the inside to be an RE teacher. And so we ask, actually, we implore you, please share this episode with anyone you think might even be vaguely interested in becoming an RE teacher. So it might be someone in business, someone who wants a career change, someone who's about to finish their degree. Let's kind of see what happens. So, Karen, can I start with you? Do you just want to introduce yourself better than I did to the listeners and tell us a little bit about your career?

SPEAKER_08 2:52

So I'll go right back. I travelled a lot as a child. I think I went to 16 different schools myself. So I think at the root of my interest in religion and worldviews is that kind of being exposed to lots of different places and cultures and so on. And actually, when I left school, I I don't know if you know this about me, Louisa, I trained to be a nurse. I started nurse training, and it was actually in a Caesarean section when I decided I didn't really want to be a nurse. And cut a long story short, I uh went off to study religious studies at the University of Newcastle, and that was because I was just really interested in religion. It was just something that always fascinated me. And my kind of interest was really quite sociological, so I was quite interested in new religious movements and how religion kind of interplayed with politics and society and so on. And I kind of got a bit hijacked by biblical studies, which I really wasn't expecting, but I had to study the Bible in my first year, and I found that much more interesting than I thought I would. And at the University of Newcastle, they gave us an opportunity to go into schools. I was actually put in my second year one afternoon a week, going into quite a challenging school in Newcastle. And I discovered that I actually really liked teenagers and working with them, which was a surprise. And so I went on to do a PGCE, a one-year course to train to be an RE teacher at the University of Warwick. And that was the hardest and yet the most fun and a rewarding year, I'd say, of my life. And it was the start of just this incredible set of experiences that I'm still going through. It's a bit like a roller coaster that kind of started, and I'm still on it, and it's been absolutely wonderful. And I'm just going to give you just a flavour of some of the things I've done, not to show off, but just to give you an idea of how being an RE teacher can work out. So in my second year of teaching, I became a lead of Key Stage 5. So I was leading A-level and Key Stage 5 RE and sociology, actually. In my third year, I became head of department. So suddenly I had to was in charge of the curriculum and everything. And also in my time as an RE teacher, over 25 years, I've led on citizenship, on sociology. I've also been a head of house, a pastoral lead. I've been a member of the local Sacra, which is an organisation that organises RE locally, and I've been an advisor to them. I've done a master's in religious education. I've been a Farmington Fellow. Farmington is just an incredible thing where they paid my school for me to have a term off school and go into university and study and write a report, which was just wonderful. My last school I was in for 12 years, and I was able to build this wonderful department and curriculum that I was so proud of with brilliant results and young people who went off to do all kinds of exciting things. And if you're interested, there is an episode of the RE podcast about doing A-level RS, which is great because you see some of the things that students go on to do. And then more recently, in the last five years, I did a leadership course run by an organisation called Cullins and Gabriels, and that was a real kind of reinvigoration of my career. And because of that, I became a member of Nartra, the National Association of Teachers of RE exec. And I went on to be really brave and to apply for the job that I'm doing now, which is to lead a PGC at the University of Worcester. So this year I have 12 wonderful trainees from a huge range of backgrounds. It's just the greatest privilege to go around schools and to see them teaching and to see them growing and flourishing and becoming the RE teachers that we kind of talked about right at the beginning of the year back in the university. And they're just coming to, as Lucy I'm sure will tell you, to the end of their first placement. And already I've had in the last couple of days news of people securing jobs. So yeah, that's kind of where I've been and where I am now.

SPEAKER_07 6:27

And we'll talk to Lucy later on in the episode. But actually, just to say that there are so many different avenues that RE can take you, other than just teaching in the classroom, and you've made that clear. And there's definitely very little blood in teaching RE. So you're very safe. There's no kind of big operations needed if you're screaming. Yeah, I'm not going to pass out. No. Now, we're doing this episode, as I said, because there's a recruitment crisis in RE. So can you just kind of paint the picture for us? What's the extent of this problem and what has caused it?

SPEAKER_08 6:58

Yeah. Well, as you know only too well, Louisa, there's a real sort of cycle, isn't there? In that we know that there is some brilliant RE going on in the country, but we also know from Ofsted subject reports and so on that unfortunately there are too many schools who are not giving students the RE they're entitled to. And that's because of various things like the eBAC has not been great for RE because students have been sort of encouraged to choose subjects other than RE, because Ofsteds, when they inspect schools, often don't look at the quality of RE. So the quality of RE hasn't been great. And that's partly because there's a shortage of specialist teachers. We know that over 50% of people teaching RE, it's not their first subject, so they're not specialists. And that then has an impact on the attitudes that people have to the subject and the uptake at GCSE and then at A level. And that then feeds into degrees. So we know that the traditional routine was theology and religious studies degrees, but we know that universities are closing those departments because universities are under a lot of pressures, and that's then meaning that there aren't as many people opting to train to become RE teachers, and the whole cycle just kind of is self-perpetuating. And that, you know, you've mentioned misconceptions. There are all of these misconceptions, and if we don't have enough good quality people out there addressing those, then they just kind of live on. So there's that kind of cycle that we're kind of battling against.

SPEAKER_07 8:24

So we've kind of got this pipeline issue where everything's kind of making everything else worse. But in the last few weeks, there's been some quite significant changes within RE, sort of the political kind of sphere and some changes that have been made. Why is now a really exciting time to train to become an RE teacher?

SPEAKER_08 8:44

Oh, it is just, it literally is the most exciting time because just in the last few weeks, you know, I don't think it's exaggerating to say something really historic has happened. I mean, I remember back when I was a trainee teacher writing an essay about RE being a Cinderella subject, because I don't want to go into all the history because it's complicated, but there's been a lot of debate and discussion and disagreement about what should be taught in RE, what exactly the purpose of RE is. And I think because the RE community historically is kind of pulled in different directions, governments and so on have been afraid to get involved with it. It's kind of seen as a bit of a basket case. But something really interesting has happened in the last few years where the RE community seems to have really come together. And the big sign of that was in 2023 when the national content standard was put together by the RE Council, which is kind of an umbrella organization. Lots of different faith groups and RE organizations came together and produced a document which was kind of a framework, a model for what RE could be like. And it was remarkable the amount of agreement and that had happened. And then fast forward a bit, we get a new government, and that government called for a review of the curriculum nationally, the whole curriculum. And in the RE world, we were really excited when we realized that actually RE was being considered as part of that and was being given due time and consideration that, you know, we weren't used to always being considered on the same level as other subjects. And on the 5th of November, I think it was, this report was announced and they made a recommendation. Um, well, firstly, they said, I'm going to get a t-shirt with this put on, RE's importance is not currently reflected in its standing in the curriculum, you know, this recognition that we're a really important subject and we haven't been given the airtime that we deserve. And they recommended that RE become a national curriculum subject. And the government have since responded to that and they have said, right, we're willing to listen to that if the RE community can reach a consensus. And of course, any community, there's going to be lots of different voices, and we need to be very mindful of that. But I really do believe, given what's gone on with the national content standard and so on, that we are at a point where RE is going to become part of the national curriculum and is going to really get the due sort of recognition that it needs in terms of its importance. And that is huge because I'm thinking, you know, head teachers now who are planning their staffing over the next few years, they're hearing this message and they are realizing that they need to employ subject specialists, which is why we need to be doing this and we need to be getting that message out there and getting good people to train to be RE teachers. And so there's that, but then there's also a lot going on in the last few years about the way we teach RE. There's been a real shift away from, you know, seeing religion as very fixed and very monolithic and so on, to actually looking at religion and worldviews and understanding the nuance and the complexity of lived experience and also looking at the disciplines. So increasingly, when we're studying religion and worldviews, we're looking at it from a sociological point of view or a theological point of view or a historical point of view. And we're drawing on these disciplines to make us better students of religion and worldviews. And that's why it's so exciting because yes, it's sad that we don't have the theology and religious studies people coming through, but we can be looking to sociologists and English graduates and psychology graduates and people from a huge range because they all bring something from their disciplines that's of real value to the study of religion and worldviews.

SPEAKER_07 12:18

I mean, I think what I will just say is I've got an episode on the national content standard, I've got an episode on the curriculum assessment review, um, which also means that we are the eBAC is now disappearing and we're going to be in the same bucket as history and geography. So we're going to be counted as a humanities that gives us equal status. And so a lot of those changes I've got episodes on, but what we're trying to make the point as that this is a historic moment, a landmark moment for RE, and it's the most exciting time, I think, to become an RE teacher. And because of the multidisciplinary kind of approach to RE, you don't have to have a theology, religious studies background in order to be a good RE teacher. One thing that could be a barrier is kind of some practical things in terms of funding. So we know that the bursary for RE kind of came and went very quickly, and currently there isn't. But there is hope, Karen, right? There is hope, absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 13:18

So actually, I just saw before we started recording, Colin St. Gabriels, who's an organisation I think I've mentioned already, who support the teaching of RE and do wonderful work, have just posted on social media a summary of some of the sources of funding. They themselves do provide funding to support people who are in hardship who are training to be RE teachers. But there are also organisations like the All Saints Educational Trust, who their applications open in January and they are offering up to 4,000 pounds. I think each application is looked at on its own merits, but there's potentially funding of up to£4,000 to support people who are training to be RE teachers. So if you have applied and you've been offered a place on a PGC, for example, you can then apply for this funding. And there are other sources as well, some of them are regional. So I would encourage anybody who's thinking about training to be an RE teacher to go onto the Cullum St. Gabriel's website because there's details there, or to get in touch with their local providers who would be able to point them in the right direction as well. So it's not the bursary that we would want ideally, but there are sources of funding. And if you speak to me or you get in touch with Cullum St. Gabriel's or your local provider, you can get that information there. The other barrier, as we're talking about barriers, I think is subject knowledge. So I think people often think I haven't done a religious studies degree or theology degree. Is my knowledge enough? But I think that's true for everybody. And I think I'm sure Lucy and Megan will talk about subject knowledge a bit later. But there are sources, there is support there. At Worcester, for example, everybody who gets a place in the course, I offer a one-to-one tutorial. We'll be developing a reading list. We're looking at having a few days before the course starts where we get speakers and visitors in and so on. So there are things we can do. But Louisa, you'd admit none of us as expert, none of us can know everything about every religion. It's just not possible. But people are bringing their own kind of disciplinary knowledge to it. And what I would be looking for when I'm interviewing somebody is that they have the passion, that they have, you know, the interest, and they have the wherewithal, you know, the willingness to go away and to get that subject knowledge and that understanding that it's a kind of a lifelong, career-long process.

SPEAKER_07 15:27

I mean, I had a religious background and did a theology degree, and I've been teaching it for 25 years, and I still don't feel that I've got to the end of my exploration into subject knowledge, and it's always changing and it's always growing. So I think that's what makes it brilliant because it's so dynamic. Absolutely. What about other sort of barriers in terms of misconceptions that people have about teaching RE? And how would you respond to those?

SPEAKER_08 15:50

Yeah, I think one is that you need to be religious. So I think a lot of people think I can't be an RE teacher, you know, I'm I'm not religious myself. That's absolutely not the case. We're quite interesting, I think, in the world, in terms of our religious education in England, I think it's something we should be incredibly proud of, that it's non-denominational and that for a long time we've taught about a wide range of religious and increasingly non-religious worldviews. So we talk a lot about non-religion in RE. And some RE teachers are religious, some are not. But nobody, but nobody is neutral. I think that's really important to understand. And I think being an RE teacher does require you to do some self-reflection, to recognise your own biases and your own blind spots, and to be conscious of that when you're in the classroom, so that you can then work with young people to help them to be aware of, you know, whatever their positionality is, wherever they're coming from, they're bringing baggage with them. And we all need to be aware of that if we're going to really engage with other people and understand where they're coming from. So I think that's one myth I'd really like to bust. Another is, you know, a Y Sadiari, you know, what's the relevance of religion today? Nobody goes to church anymore. And I mean, even a cursory kind of examination of international and national data makes you realise that, you know, religion is not going anywhere. It still has a massive influence in all sorts of ways. You just need to look at the newspaper. And, you know, I think what's important as well is that we're not about trying to sanitize things or make things fluffy and lovely in RE. We look at the dark side of religion as well. We recognise that religion plays a really important part in society in a positive way, but it also is potentially problematic, and we need to equip young people to engage with that, to be able to talk about that and to find solutions for that. Sometimes I've had people say to me it's an easy option, and that's one that really annoys me because we are a challenging academically rigorous subject. You know, I always talk about the fact that in RE is the place where you'd study Plato, and Plato's academy is where the word academic comes from. You know, we are a proper academic subject. And the other would be, and this is one that comes from parents, is RE doesn't get you jobs, it doesn't make you employable. And if you listen to the A-level RE podcast that we did, you've got a doctor, a solicitor. I had a student that I taught A-level RE to recently send me a picture of her becoming a barrister the other day. You know, RE is actually an enhancement in terms of, I think, your career opportunities rather than something that holds you back. So I think those are just a few of the misconceptions. I'm sure there are plenty more that other people could talk to as well.

SPEAKER_07 18:30

And I'm going to come back to you later. One question I was going to ask you is why RE is such a great subject. And I think we've got a sense of that from your questions. And I know that you've written an article about why teach RE, and I'll put a link to that so people can read it. I mean, you've expressed yourself brilliantly. So I think that would be really good. Karen, so you brought Lucy and Megan with you. Just explain who they are and let them introduce themselves and you can answer them some questions. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 18:55

Okay, thank you. So, Megan, I'm going to start with you, if that's okay. So, Megan did her PGC at the University of Worcester, I think it was three years ago, and is currently a mentor, so is working with one of our trainees, and so that's how I've met you. So, if you could start by just giving us a little bit of your background, how you came to be an RE teacher, and what you're doing now, please.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for that lovely introduction. So I don't come from a background of theology or religious studies. I did my undergraduate degree in filmmaking uh several years ago when I left college. And it was something that I enjoyed, but it wasn't something that really drew me into that world. And then when I left my degree, I had lots of different jobs, lots of office jobs, but I was really drawn to education. So I've worked in a secondary school, I've worked in a university in an admin role. Realised that those things didn't feel particularly meaningful to me. And when I reflected on what would feel meaningful, I was really, really drawn to teaching. And I think I was drawn to teaching RE because it was something that I loved at school, it was something that I loved at A level. But also at the time I was studying part-time for a master's degree in popular culture. So that was an interdisciplinary degree where we looked at film studies and English literature, and I did a religious studies module about religion and popular culture, and I just fell back in love with the subject. So I felt really driven that that was what I should do. Okay, lovely.

SPEAKER_08 20:22

And now you're teaching in a secondary school in Worcester, is that right?

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Yes, yeah. So I spent a year working in one school and then left and have completed my ECT2 and into my third year at a school in Worcester City. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 20:36

Lovely. So subject knowledge must have been a challenge for you. I said it's a challenge for all of us, but how have you overcome that? And what advice would you give to people similar to yourself who's coming perhaps from a different discipline in terms of how to build that subject knowledge?

SPEAKER_04 20:52

So I completed a subject knowledge enhancement that was part of a conditional offer to study my PGC course at the University of Worcester. And so I completed that subject knowledge with Worcester University at the time, but I also did an awful lot of wider reading. So my university lecturer, when I did that religious studies module on my master's degree, recommended that I read the very short introduction series by Oxford University Press. They are fantastic, and I've since lent those books out to people who are now studying to be RE teachers. So those are fabulous. I would particularly recommend a very short introduction to God by John Boker. It's fantastic as an introduction to theology. I would also really recommend just looking at current affairs. I think particularly reading anything written by a person of faith about their faith is a really fantastic introduction to lived religion, to the nuances of religion, as you mentioned earlier, Karen. And I think that would really it really opens your eyes to the fact that religion isn't one thing, that it can be many things. And that I think has really lent depth and nuance to my own teaching when I've taught, particularly faith backgrounds that I'm less familiar. With.

SPEAKER_08 22:00

Yeah, no, that's really helpful. Thank you. So you've been teaching today. Could you just give us a flavour of what you've taught today? Just give us the headlines.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

Oh gosh, you've caught me on a date. I'm very PPA headed. Obviously, it's the end of terms, so we're drawing a close to lots of topics. So I've taught year seven today, and we've just studied a unit entitled What Was So Radical About Jesus? So we put Jesus into his social and political context and the people and the institutions that he challenged, and kind of challenging this notion that Jesus was just a kind, nice guy. And actually, people at the time really didn't like his politics and why that was. I've also we've drawn to a close a topic with year eight called, Does the world need prophets today? So we've looked at people like David Attenborough and people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and thought about could we consider these people to be prophets in comparison to Old Testament prophets like Isaiah or Amos? So that's the kind of thing that I've been discussing with my students today.

SPEAKER_08 22:59

I love asking RE teachers what they've taught that day because you get a flavour of just how broad and varied and exciting it is. So, Megan, what do you most enjoy about being an RE teacher?

SPEAKER_04 23:11

I think it is the dialogue that I get to have with my students and the privilege of being able to have dialogue with students that actually they probably don't get to have with anybody else, or looking at challenging subjects that maybe they don't speak about with anybody else or haven't articulated before. So talking to them about faith or ritual or death or ethics, these things that as teenagers they are thinking about and they are interacting with, but maybe they don't have any other space in which to really explore those ideas thoroughly. So I would say it's that privilege of being able to build those really warm relationships with my students whilst also really challenging them to think critically and giving them an opportunity to articulate things that perhaps previously they haven't been able to.

SPEAKER_08 23:53

Oh, right. I always remember people saying to me, there's no other lesson like this, there's nowhere else where we get to have these conversations and say these things. It's kind of a safe space to deal with quite tricky and sometimes, you know, difficult ideas. Absolutely. So is there anything that you found surprising or challenging about being an RE teacher?

SPEAKER_04 24:12

I think the fact, and going back to the fact that you've said it's such a rigorous academic subject, I don't think I was surprised by that. But I think when I discuss that with people, they find that surprising because of all of those misconceptions that people have about RE teachers. But I would also say people are sometimes shocked by how seriously schools are beginning to take RE. Particularly my school, it's really a subject that's at the forefront of staffing, of planning. It's really, really valued. And I think sometimes you hear voices that say, oh well, unless you're in a faith school, people don't really care about RE. And that's just not true. So I think that can be a surprise to some people when they come into this. And like you say, linking back to what you said about this kind of new national curriculum that's on the horizon, more and more schools will begin to value it as well. And students and parents hopefully will begin to value it more as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 25:05

And my last question is just about your role as a mentor. So this year you have had a very new baby RE teacher come to you and to teach her first lessons and so on. I just wondered what that's been like and if you've got any insights that you could share with people who are thinking about training from that experience.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Sorry, you kind of sent us these questions, and the first thing that came to my mind when you said, How has this experience been? was the word joyful. It has been such a joy to mentor. It's also been really challenging because it's shone a light on my own practice and really made me think about the way that I approach subjects. So I've been really inspired by my trainee. At times, they have done things that I perhaps wouldn't have thought to do and have really hit the ground running with their practice, which is great. And my advice to anybody thinking about doing it is do it. It really is. I sort of um denard about it. Would I make a good teacher? Is this the right subject? But do it. You don't have to know a lot about religion. All subject knowledge is learnt with time and practice. That's true of history teachers, that's true of math teachers, we are no different, so that shouldn't be a barrier or it shouldn't put people off. And again, like you said, we are lifelong students. We could do lifelong CPD for our subject because it's an ever-evolving, changing subject, and that's what makes it so exciting. I'd be really open as a trainee to deliberate practice, doing things that at times might make you feel a bit silly or a bit uncomfortable with that first go, and really be open to advice and finally just be really patient with yourself as your subject knowledge and your skills develop. It's something that took time for all of us and will continue to take time as we all become better. So just showing yourself that patience and compassion.

SPEAKER_08 26:38

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a good time for me to say is that you know, if you're doing a PGC, that's a really intense year, but that's only the start. You then have two ECT years, it's a three-year journey, but even then you're only at the start. It's a long-term slow burner, isn't it? Yeah. Excellent. So Lucy is a trainee at the University of Worcester at the moment. So just a couple of days away from finishing your first of two placements. So you're in two contrasting schools over the year. So, Lucy, would you tell us a bit about your background and how you came to be training to be an RE teacher?

SPEAKER_05 27:11

Yeah, so just like Megan, I don't have a degree in religious studies or theology. I have a degree in psychology. But when I was at school, I did a GCSE and an A level in RS. And that it was very inspiring, I think, just to learn about different views, especially because where I'm from is it's very white, it's very middle class. There's no diversity there at all. So, like learning things about like Sikhism, for example, was really eye-opening. But I think what the school wasn't very good at is it didn't tell us what you could do with an RE degree. It was very much you can either become a teacher or you can become a priest. And so I chose to do psychology at uni, but then the subjects, like the modules that I enjoyed most was like developmental psychology and moral and political psychology. And with like developmental psychology, I was thinking at this point, like, oh, I really enjoyed school, like I loved all of my teachers. Like, do I maybe want to consider going into teaching? And then because developmental psychology, like it mostly focused on like the earlier years, I was like, oh, let's go volunteer in a nursery, which very quickly learned was not for me. Like small children terrify me still. Absolute complete respect for anyone who does primary. And then when I was looking at like the moral and political side, I obviously I did my dissertation in political psychology, and that was kind of all of the conflicts in the Middle East was happening, and then the general election was kind of happening here, and I mean America, and it was very eye-opening to be like to see how other people viewed the world and their tolerances. I know we hate that word, but like would people be more tolerant if they did have that kind of discussion when they were in GCSE, A-level, RS, that kind of thing? And then I took a year out because I wasn't sure at the end of my psych degree what I really wanted to do. And I was like, okay, let's take a year out, let's not jump into anything. And I think I decided pretty early on. I think I applied in November to do RE at Buster, and here we are a year later.

SPEAKER_08 29:25

And so, how has it been? Tell us you're now about to take a deep breath after a quite a big term. Can you just give us a little flavor of what it's been like, what's involved and how it's been?

SPEAKER_05 29:35

Yeah, I think you mentioned it earlier when you were like it was such a challenging yet rewarding year, and it has it has been really challenging at times. Like there are so many plates that you have to juggle, like you have assignments to write for uni, and then you have to do your lesson planning and making resources, and then actually physically teaching as well. You're kind of there sometimes, and you're like, Oh, I'm a bit like a performing monkey, but it's been so rewarding, I think, to see. I mean, like the Lucy who started at the start, and to the Lucy now, like it's such a development. And my mentor, Chris Giles, for those who doesn't know, absolute wonder of the RE world, you know, he's there and he's like, You're doing a great job. And it's those kind of relationships forming and the relationships with the pupils as well, and they're all so invested in RE because we've been doing things like abortion and euthanasia at the minute. So they're very big ethical kind of situations, and they love it. Like they're like, Yes, keep teaching, go ahead, and that's been really joyful. And it gets better, like the lesson planning doesn't take as long now, so it's everything calms down and it's all fine.

SPEAKER_08 30:52

It does, it does.

SPEAKER_07 30:53

Can I just do a quick shout out to Jalsey? Um one thing I will mention is just that the RE community is delightful, and Jalsey is he's an encourager, isn't he? He's an experienced RE teacher on the Nature Exec and is a huge encourager, which I think is what you find with the RE community. So just a little shout out to him. Corey, I interrupted, go on, go.

SPEAKER_08 31:12

That's great, that's great. So just a little bit about subject knowledge, because I know Lucy, you've worked incredibly hard on your subject knowledge, and your subject knowledge is great. I know you won't agree with me when I say that, but what have you done? Just give us some ideas of how you've worked on your subject knowledge.

SPEAKER_05 31:27

Yeah, so I mean, I again I was very fortunate to do both a GCSE and an A level in it, so I had some kind of foundation to start off with. So I knew like the bare basics of like Christianity and utilitarianism and all of those ethical things, but I think I approached it very systematically. So I'd be like, okay, well, these are the practices and these are the festivals and worked it like that. But there have been some very great resources out there, like you wrote some really fab blogs over the summer, Dawn Cox wrote some terrific blogs, and then also lots of podcasts are like the RE podcasts, the Pansey podcasts, you know, they're all very terrific and they're all very different ways of kind of learning. Megan mentioned books earlier. I think I watch a lot of films, like sometimes the like the weirdest films like Joseph and his amazing technical or dream coat. I'll pop it on and I'll call it revision. I'm like, this is awesome. Great way to learn. Yeah, so just those ways, just a lot of different kind of ways, and approaching it very systematically and asking lots and lots of questions. I think Chris is sick of me asking questions. Bless him.

SPEAKER_08 32:34

I'm sure he isn't, I'm sure he's really pleased to answer them.

SPEAKER_05 32:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 32:38

So, what has been your greatest success or the thing you're most proud of so far? Can you think of a moment or a thing you've done that it's really stands out for you?

SPEAKER_05 32:46

Yeah, I think the relationships that I've developed with the pupils are my highlight. I think because I had such wonderful experiences with my own teachers, I was like, okay, when I start teaching, I want to be like the best parts of all of my teachers for someone else. And I think that I'm slowly becoming that, I think. And there were some cases where again we've been looking at abortion and euthanasia, which are really, really sensitive topics, and kind of voicing how the culture of the classroom, like being really, really supportive, if anyone needs to leave, they can, being very present and very mindful, I think. And some people did, some people did leave, and I'm like, that's absolutely fine. I'm so glad that you felt comfortable enough to come and tell me that. And in a very like similar lesson, because I use quite a lot of cold calling because of my assignment. A girl came up to me and she was like, Please don't cold call me. Like, I get really, really uncomfortable. And like that seems really daft, but I was just stood there and I was like, Yes, thank you for telling me. Like, I'm I'm so glad that you feel comfortable enough to kind of voice that because I wouldn't have when I was younger, I would have been like, Okay, I'll answer if you want me to, but I don't want to. So I'm really glad of the relationships I've built with pupils and how supportive that kind of classroom is becoming.

SPEAKER_08 34:11

And I know how hard and how much thought you've given, how hard you've worked to create that kind of inclusive environment where everybody feels comfortable and valued. So that's a real success. You'd be really proud of yourself for that. So, final question from me, Lucy, is what piece of advice would you give to somebody who's listening to this podcast now who's thinking, should I become an RE teacher?

SPEAKER_05 34:30

I'm gonna echo Megan and say do it, first of all. I think also do your research. So find the course that's right for you. So with Worcester, they do a uni route and then they also work with regional training hubs. And I'm on a regional training hub route, and that works perfectly for me because I mean I knew my placements since the start, I know who my next mentor is in my next placement, and I think I'm quite anxious, so that works perfectly for me, that kind of extra support. So I think do your research, but definitely do it. If you've got any qualms, it's fine, go for it.

SPEAKER_08 35:06

Thank you so much, Lucy.

SPEAKER_07 35:07

I've brought two guests with me, I've got Dan Deep and Monique, and I have the great privilege of working with them. And I asked them to be on this because they are two of the most inspirational teachers that I've met in my career, and I feel so privileged that I get to work with them, but they're both at very different stages of their career. So I wanted to have a chat with them. So, Dam Deep, do you want to just explain where you're at in your career and what your current role is?

SPEAKER_06 35:31

Yes, so obviously I'm a religious education teacher, but I'm training through Teach First, and I'm in my ITT year at Chobham Academy, and still very early, early stages, but I've been thrown in the deep end. I've got a year 11 class, I've got a year 13 class, I have two sets of year tens, I've got three sets of year nines, two sets of year eights, and three sets of year sevens. So I'm the deep, deep end, but I'm glad because I feel like I'm being challenged, and with me, I love being stretched as a teacher, and my background as well, similar to Megan and Lucy, is not a theology background. It's a background in history and political thought. So naturally bring more of an analytical and interpretive lens when I do teach my RS lessons. A lot of my academic work is focused on epistemology and hermeneutics, which fits in really nice with the Key Stage 3 toolkit, which is basically rooted in hermeneutics.

SPEAKER_07 36:29

Yeah. So it's a toolkit we have at Key Stage 3 that's based on the national content standard that we met earlier. And I know that Dan Deep is doing Aristotle with her year tens and is incredible. And just for anyone who doesn't know, ITT is initial teacher training, so that's just the sort of stage of career. Why did you become an RE teacher? If you did history and sort of politics more side, what made you wanted to be an RE teacher?

SPEAKER_06 36:50

So in my second year of university, because Queen Mary finishes very, very early, like I was done all the way back in let's say March with the entire content. So I was just I had a lot of free time in my hands, and I was doing unqualified teaching for an agency, and I luckily got employed by this school right in front of me, it's called Little School, and I did a whole like from March to July, just taught unqualified RE as a long-term cover, and I taught everything abortion, euthanasia, what do religions think about factory farming. I was teaching the whole shebang, and it was absolutely enjoyable. I had a lot of yenines, and each Yanine student would come to me and say, Miss, are you a teacher? Miss, are you a teacher? And when I'd say, No, I'm 19 years old and I'm still in university and I'm literally doing this for fun, and they would be so surprised. They'd be like, Oh my god, I cannot believe you're an RE teacher. Like, you're generally unqualified. I was like, Yep. I'm just like very like freeballing in that sort of sense. I'm very good at like putting on the lesson. Like, no one questions me and says, Are you a trainee? Are you this? Are you that? I'm like, no.

SPEAKER_07 37:53

And just sort of talk to us about your sort of experience of your first term in the classroom as training to be a teacher. What's it been like?

SPEAKER_06 38:00

It has been really intense but really rewarding at the same time. I've seen some students make huge progress, especially once the routines, the modelling, and the high expectations have become constant and consistent. Lessons like exploring resurrection symbolism through Narnia and analysing Mark 8:31 and John 10.18 have shown me like that the pupils can handle deep thinking when the structure is correct and they rise to the challenge when they feel safe and supported. And what was such like a motivational, like sort of like showing me that what I'm teaching my attends is working, is that a lot of the kids use the quote John 10 18, and that wasn't originally in the slides. I just put that in and I fully broke it down, like very Doncock style. I broke it down, put it into its context, and I was like, this is what Jesus is trying to say, and this is what Jesus is in the point of view of humans, and this is Jesus in the point of view God the Father. And do you see the different interpretations? And I love that about eight students mentioned that quote in that six marker, which they did in November for their assessments, and that made me really happy. Yeah, sorry, just a big flex of mine.

SPEAKER_07 39:07

And actually, what's so lovely is we're really getting a sense of the kind of things that you teach and your approach to teaching as well. Why do you think RE is such an important subject in 2025?

SPEAKER_06 39:17

I think RE, again, it's very important, like Megan, like Lucy, and like Karen have said, it teaches worldview literacy and how to understand beliefs, non-beliefs, culture, ethics, and the frameworks people use to make sense of their daily lives. It's the interdisciplinary subject. Me and the consultants me were talking about this. If you can write for RE, you can write for English, you can write for history, especially with the new method that we're teaching, like through hermeneutics. It's all about interpretations. What is the context? What are these people saying? Why are they saying this? And it links directly to English, and it's building that key religious literacy for all the students, and it'll benefit them across all of the humanity subjects and English as well. And it also builds empathy, critical thinking, and the ability to navigate a very diverse society, which has now, especially with the increase of social media, we've become very chronically online as well. So just having Ari there to build that critical thinking is really, really important. And young people need those tools now more than ever. Yeah, and it creates a lot of media literacy as well, I believe.

SPEAKER_07 40:23

That's amazing. And you're obviously a massive advocate for the subject and you know, exemplary practitioner, but what do you find most challenging about it?

SPEAKER_06 40:31

I think what I've noticed about again, it's like the identity and the personal beliefs is a major problem for me when I'm teaching it. Like emotions can run very, very high. So the challenge is keeping that classroom environment safe, fair, and respectful while pushing pupils academically and supporting disengaged pupils can be very complex, especially with religious education. So it involves a lot of relational conversations, solution-based conversations, and a lot of trauma-informed pedagogies and approaches. And collaboration with the CEN department is extremely needed when teaching RV, especially when it's exam classes as well.

SPEAKER_07 41:06

Yeah, because we're dealing with a lot of you have talked about the importance of the relationships that we have with our students because of the nature of our subject and creating safety. And I think that's great, but not then dulling the information or simplifying it. And that's that's a really interesting thing. Can I ask what your personal worldview is and how that you sort of hinted at it there, but actually that sometimes there is a little bit of a tension?

SPEAKER_06 41:29

Yeah, so my worldview, brought up in a Sikh environment, I am Sikh myself, and especially that idea of like Miri Buri, which is like it's about balancing the inner values with the outer actions. For me, it's being showing again compassion and dignity in how I treat pupils while also holding clear routines and expectations that help them succeed. I think Zame, the consultant, when he observed me, he said it himself: when the students enter the classroom, they know it's like entering the library, they know that Miss Clover's classroom is quiet and respectful. And when the discussion is required, they will be discussing the tasks and they feel comfortable enough to have these discussions. I find it so interesting that Key Stage 3, sometimes they'll drop in a bit of Nietzsche and the concept of eternal recurrence, and they'd love it. They always ask me more. They're like, Miss, what does he mean by this? And then I'll implement it into the lesson and it will it'll land so perfectly. I think what I've done recently, my worldview is also like to teach for a decolonial lens as well. And we have one lesson which is I think it's verifying truth claims, I believe, or something about universal truths. And I linked it to the Rochamon effect and how truth isn't universal, it's contested. And when we teach RE again and links back to history as well, when they learn history, they learn about sources and how subjectivity and how do we interpret, and it's just crazy how it's just all related, and they find that so interesting.

SPEAKER_07 42:56

And it shows how RE is connected to so much of reality and the world and our experiences, which is great. And just to say, you're mentioning Zam there, so we'll do a little shout-out to Zamu Hussein. So regular listeners of the podcast will know who Zam is. He's been on the podcast a few times, he's your consultant in the school that you work at, so and he speaks very, very highly of you. In terms of your sort of future career, have you got any thoughts about where you'd like it to go?

SPEAKER_06 43:20

I think I definitely want to stay as an RE teacher. I want to continue proving my practice and becoming a strong and reliable classroom teacher. I'd also love one day to become a head of department, because right now I am in charge of making all of the key stage five ethics resources. So, in terms of utilitarianism, naturalism, in charge of making them. And I would love to be a head of department. And if it doesn't happen, I would love to pursue my master's in political thought and sort of contribute more to the R Rest curriculum development and eventually combine that academic research with my classroom practice.

SPEAKER_07 43:56

I mean it'd be really fascinating to have a unit of work in a series of resources. On religion and politics. Yeah. And having a look at the interplay between those two disciplines would be, I think, fascinating. Yeah. You know, and if we think about America and having a separation of church and state on paper, but actually in reality not. You know, and so actually I think that'd be really fascinating. Yeah. So Monique, you're sort of slightly further on in your career. So just let us know sort of what your current role is.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

So I am a secondary school teacher for religion, philosophy, and ethics at Harris Academy in Morden, which is in South London. I'm also the subject director, which is the head of department in some other schools, they would call it the head of department. I teach all of key stage three, so years seven, eight, and nine, and I teach all of key stage four. My current school doesn't have key stage five, unfortunately. We only go up to 16, but I have previously taught key stage five as well. So I studied religion and politics at university, but much later, so not at the conventional age when students go to university. I went to SOAS University and then I qualified with my PGCE from the Institute of Education, UCL, in 2020, the famous year when everything was really straightforward.

SPEAKER_07 45:05

What was it that made you want to become an RE teacher?

SPEAKER_01 45:08

My why is quite big. So I didn't have a conventional route into education or into being an RE teacher. I actually didn't decide to become an RE teacher until I was around 25 years old. So I made the decision due to a number of reasons. A significant event that had a real impact on me when I was at school, which I do attribute to my career choice, was actually seeing the 9-11 attacks on the news when I was in year nine. And then as a result of that, seeing the ethno-religious tensions that happened as a result, it kind of exploded this narrative of them and us in the media and in school. And then that shaped my experience with Key Stage 4. And for me, in my memory, it also triggered a dark period of religious intolerance in the UK, which we're still seeing the effects of today. So after that, I left school. I didn't initially go to university, started in retail, made my way up to the sales manager for a fashion retailer, was there for about six years, and I then started to reflect on where my career was going. I was good at the role, but I felt a lot of dissatisfaction in it. Found myself wondering what the point of it was, particularly at times like Christmas, which for anyone that's ever worked in retail, they'll know you see the side of society that is enveloped in greed, stress, and chaos. But the part of that role that I did enjoy was the people side, so the staff training and the development. And I really enjoyed leading a diverse team of people that were varying ages. So some of the people I managed were 16 years old and they were still in school having their first weekend job, all the way up to people that were 70, they'd already retired, but they continue to work just to provide them some stimulation, people from different religious backgrounds, different life experiences, some had children, some didn't, and they would all come together for the purpose of work. And something that stood out to me whilst I worked in retail management, that sadly still happens in workplaces today, was a lack of knowledge. You could even go as far as to say ignorance when it came to the needs of the staff and the compassion that management would show them when they were dealing with people. So for me, deciding to become a teacher was grounded in the fact that I was good with people and I was good with collaborating with them on their development, and I knew that that could easily translate into teaching. But in terms of picking RE as my subject specialism, that stood out to me as the subject that could solve the problem that I could see happening in the working world, and it could solve the problem of ignorance in society and the lack of compassion that I noticed. I noticed there were certain staff from particular backgrounds that would be viewed as like more critically when they'd make requests for religious holidays, staff social events that would be centered around alcohol and specific dietary requirements. There would be Muslim staff that would feel uncertain about making requests for breaks around prayer times because of the response that they would get from management. And this made me feel deeply uncomfortable. And I knew that with better education, these people who were in positions of power and leadership would be making better decisions about their staff. So that experience kind of really deep-seated my decision to become an RE teacher when I was kind of having those reflections of where I was going in my career.

SPEAKER_07 48:22

There's a sense of social justice. Yeah. There's a sense of religious literacy, there's a sense of social cohesion. There's all of these things that feel so relevant to today's society in a way that actually would make society better for every single person that lives here, not just a few or not just a privilege. And actually teaching our young people the skills they need to navigate that kind of world where we see things that are happening that are just painful for us to see, to feel that you're actually part of that solution, I think is really important. So I think that really gives us a sense of why you think RE is such an important subject. But is there anything else you want to say about why RE is such a great subject?

SPEAKER_01 49:05

There's so much about the subject that is important. So hopefully, lots of what I've already spoken about is indicated towards what good RE can offer and what makes this such an important subject. But I want to give a comprehensive view of what makes the subject important. So religious education is vital for understanding the diverse beliefs and values that shape society and the global events that we see happening around us. It reveals how religious principles have influenced law, ethics, governance, helping students grasp the foundation of justice and human rights. It promotes respect and dialogue and RE strengthens community cohesion in multicultural contexts. And moreover, it questions. So it also develops critical and analytical thinking through the exploration of complex moral and philosophical issues and lots of sensitive topics. My favourite part of what makes it an important subject, though, is that it allows for students to ask questions about topics that they might usually not feel so comfortable to ask, or they rarely get the opportunity to ask. And that is exactly what the subject does, and that's what makes it so important.

SPEAKER_07 50:10

It's a mic drop moment, isn't it, though? Like that I couldn't have said it better. Give us a sense then, because these are all quite big, lofty ideals. Give us a sense of break it down of what happens in your classroom. What kind of things do you teach the students about? What lessons do you have in your sort of normal working week?

SPEAKER_01 50:30

So we teach in my academy multidisciplinary approach, so through the lens of theology, philosophy, and social sciences. So I try my best to begin by the way we approach everything, we set the scene first, so we give the context as so whether that means students are knowing the historical and political context first and better understand how something develops over time, or it could be a particular religious figure we're looking at and understanding their worldview and their context for them to understand a particular person and where they're coming from and what their position is in the world. But also, I begin by setting the scene of how we, and I say we, I'm included as the teacher, even though I am the expert, but we as learners are going to engage with this particular topic in a curious and respectful way. So that just ensures that students know that they have to approach something even if they don't agree with it in that respectful way. So the kind of way I approach the classroom is setting the scene in that way, in terms of academically, but also in terms of their behaviour and their attitude towards it as well. Now, just to kind of go through a few things that I've taught this week. So today was a completely different day. I had all of my key stage four students off timetable on a personal development day. They had a bit of an experiential RE, they met with a Hindu chaplain from King's College University, and then they also had some lessons on Hindu Dharma taught by teachers with other specialisms that I planned for them. Some other recent topics, Christian worship, for example. This was particularly great to teach to a class of year tens who are largely from a Pentecostal Christian background. So some of the liturgical traditional worship was very different from their own background as well. Year 11s have been undertaking an in-depth study of the diversity of thought and interpretation of Genesis along with teachings in the Quran and what impact that has on how Christians and Muslims engage with climate issues and the human responsibility for taking care of the planet, and that has sparked some of the most insightful and curious discussions around science and religion. It's been really interesting. And then we've also been looking at religious and non-religious attitudes towards abortion. My year nines are currently learning about moral philosophy and how we make decisions about right and wrong, which has been a really great unit of study for them developing their OSI skills in the classroom as well.

SPEAKER_07 52:44

Yeah, it's incredible. It's so good, it's so good. Now, what's I think interesting is a lot of people when they think about being an RE teacher, they think that's quite a static job, but actually you run a department, and actually that's a slightly different set of skills to being an RE teacher, although there's sort of some crossovers. Talk to us about your role as an RE lead, leading a department and what kind of skills you need for that role.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Yeah, so I absolutely love the fact that as the subject director for the department, I have autonomy over how we teach what we teach. So that's when you get to know that you've actually had an impact, the influence your curriculum can have on those young minds, and you give them the aha moment. But it's not just seeing me do it. I get to go and observe other teachers delivering on the curriculum that I've helped develop as well and that I've been leading on. It also helps you see the connections that the students are making for a curriculum that you've mapped out over time. So something that is probably the best feeling is the subject leader seeing them go from year seven to eleven, knowing that you've mapped something out for them over those years, and then seeing the impact that has on them in year 11. The skills that are needed to be the head of the department, you need to be patient. You've got to be patient with yourself, with your students, with any teachers that you're also line managing. You've got to be self-driven and self-disciplined, but you need to be incredibly reflective. You've got to be reflective of your own position, you need to think about the biases you might be putting on your department, reflective practitioner who's open to feedback and constructive criticism. And you also need to be confident and have conviction in the decisions that you make. So a lot of it is being prepared to justify why you've got something in the curriculum in the way that you've chosen. And the special thing about R is there aren't that many specialists in the subject, sadly, with Love More, but you just need to make sure that you're able to justify that decision. And it could be to people who don't necessarily share the same passions as you on the subject, although that is changing, and it's great to hear lots of others talk about how that is changing. Being able to engage others with it and get their buy-in. So I have teachers with other specialisms that teach my subject, getting their buy-in, that is a skill you need to hone in on, making sure they feel comfortable to deliver the subject and knowing that they are well equipped with the subject knowledge, because as we've all highlighted, we all know we're never going to know all of it. So for someone who is totally new and teaching something else, having the skill as the subject lead to be able to make them feel confident is one you really need to hone in on.

SPEAKER_07 55:08

And you've given us a sense there that it's not necessarily always an easy job. So, what do you find sort of some of the challenges of teaching RE and of leading a department?

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Definitely the challenge of getting the buy-in of a subject from the senior leaders. I feel like that's something that takes time. Can sometimes be the challenges of the student buy-in, sometimes parents is the lead of the department. You might have some parents that have questions about what their child is being taught. It does take time and persistence and tenacity to overcome these challenges, but that can be a good thing. So I remember in early stages of my career being absolutely terrified of speaking to parents, and now the minute there's even an inclination of a child's disengagement and it's linked to perhaps some misconception they're getting from home, I'm on that phone straight away. So actually, that challenge has turned into an opportunity for me, and I find it's something that I'm quite confident of dealing with, and if anything's gone to SLT, without my say-so, I'm definitely one of the first ones to say no, I need to know about this because I'm the expert and I'm the one that's well equipped to deal with this challenge. There's also a lot of parents that have misconceptions about what we teach, so they might encourage their children not to choose it as an option at GCSE. And some parents have got a lived memory of quite restrictive and confessional RE as well, so they kind of make assumptions about it. But one of the biggest challenges I find actually is that the sad reality of the imperfect world is that not everybody shares the values we have, not often, but sometimes there might be some hateful or harmful rhetoric that students do bring into the classroom. But if you make your classroom a safe open space for dialogue, that can be taken as an opportunity for you to totally shift that student's mind, and then that's how got an effect on how they go out into the world themselves. And I think RE is really best positioned as a subject to tackle that.

SPEAKER_07 56:58

I tell a little story I had a student in a school I work at come to me and went, Miss, can I ask you a question? I've never met this guy because I don't teach, it was just a one-off lesson I was covering. He said, Miss, can I ask you a question? He said, I don't know if I should ask you because I think it's rude. And I said, This is a safe space to ask any question. He said, If Islam is the correct religion, why do the other religions still exist? And I said, Well, actually, I said we have religious freedom and you can choose the religion that you want or choose not to be religious, and that's your human right. And he went, Yeah, oh now I get it. And I just thought it was so simple that it was a very simple answer to his question. He wasn't trying to be antagonistic or rude or anything like that. It was a genuine curiosity. I gave him an answer, and actually, you think now that like sliding door moment, he's now got a new way of understanding the world. It doesn't take away from the truth of Islam for him, but it allows other people to do other things as well. And he was completely okay with it, and I think that's great. Can I ask where you want your career to go? Like if we're thinking about sort of career progressions within RA, what would you love to do?

SPEAKER_01 58:01

I really enjoy where I'm at at the moment, and I really enjoy the teaching and learning part of my career, so I'm likely going to focus on developing that area. However, I am also very much interested in remaining current and adapting with the society that we live in. So I'm currently showing a keen interest in adopting digital solutions in the curriculum, specifically how AI can enhance teaching and learning, and how education can embrace AI in an ethical way. So my career development will hopefully move in that direction so that the subject remains relevant and doesn't get stuck behind in such a fast-paced world that we're living in at the moment.

SPEAKER_07 58:40

And so actually, I know Monique's doing an apprenticeship in AI and education, so just look at how we can use AI sort of effectively and ethically. So really fascinated to see how that turns out. Can I just very quickly ask, as my last question, what your own personal worldview is?

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Yes. So I grew up in a household without religion, but it was discussed very openly. So I wasn't socialized into religion, but there would be attendance of church, for example, every so often. Parents were quite anti-religious because they had quite heavy Catholic upbringings themselves. They said that I could choose if I wanted to be baptized, and I never got baptised, but I would describe myself as wholeheartedly agnostic. I see divine truth in all scripture, and actually that's why I enjoy the subject so much. But I wouldn't refer to myself as being part of a particular organised religion or worldview.

SPEAKER_07 59:29

Yeah, that's really fascinating. Thank you so much. So, David, can you just introduce yourself to our listeners and just explain what your current role is?

SPEAKER_00 59:39

So I'm David Aston. I'm an executive principal for Harris, and I currently oversee two Harris Academies. One is a secondary academy, 11 to 16, Harris Academy Clapham, and the other is Harris Sixth Form in Clapham.

SPEAKER_07 59:54

Amazing. So an executive principal oversees more than one. So each site would have a head of school, and then you kind of oversee as an executive principal.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Yes, the sixth form has a principal now, but before I moved to Clapham, I was exec principal over Harris Bromley and Harris Orbington.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

And I began that in 2018. And before that, I was principal at Harris Bromley from 2014. And I joined Harris in 2008, I think.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:21

Amazing. And I mean it's such a great trust to be part of. But paint a picture of your career before that. So before you went into headship, what was your career and how did that career progress?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

I went to university in 1991 in Leeds, and I did a degree in theology. And following that, I met a remarkable head of department who was working in Milton Keynes, and I met her in my final year at university, and she was looking for an RE teacher, and they'd been going around all of the colleges in the country to try and find one because there was a recruitment crisis even then. And I met her and we just had a meeting of minds, really, and um I got the job there. So I started teaching in 1995 in a school in Milton Keynes with her, it was a Catholic school, so religious studies was a core subject with the same parity as English and maths. All of the children in the school did it, and we had a huge A-level cohort as well. And it was at that period that I learned how to teach, but also I think developed a vision of what religious studies could be. I worked at that school for eight years, and then in 2003 I became head of religious studies at a school in Car Shelton where the previous head of department who'd met me at university had become the head teacher, and I was head of religious studies there for five years, and again a core department. All of the children did religious studies and we had lots and lots doing A-level. And then in 2008, I applied for and secured the position as faculty director for the sixth form at Harris City Academy, Crystal Palace, and then after about a year and a half, I became vice principal for the Sixth Form Federation, and I did that role until 2014 when I became principal at Harris Girls Academy, Bromley, and then the rest is history, as they say.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:11

Yeah. I mean, there's so many interesting things that you've said. One is there's almost a serendipity to your career that you know you sort of met somebody and they kind of took your life on a path that maybe you hadn't necessarily thought about. And also to have a head of RE that went into headship, it kind of provided that blueprint for what your career could do, which I think is really interesting. There's one thing you said that I want to pick up on in that you sort of started to create a vision for RE. What was that vision at that time?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

I think religious studies is a unique subject in many ways, and obviously it's different in different schools. And I worked in the Catholic sector for the first eight years of my career and then left and moved into academies at Harris. And obviously, religious studies is different in those two kinds of contexts. But I think one of the common characteristics is it enables people to reflect upon bigger questions around purpose and meaning, and it allows children space and time to think in a structured and purposeful way about what they're doing, why they're doing it, the role that they have in terms of their own individual context, but also more broadly around the role they have within a particular organization or culture or place and time. You know, obviously lots of subjects strive to have that kind of ability to really reflect and think, but I think religious studies is uniquely placed to do that, and in many ways is a really significant part of any curriculum, and certainly in the schools that I've run, religious studies has been critical in terms of the school improvement work that I've been involved in, helping children to understand their own role, but also the role of us as an organization and what we're trying to do in terms of them and their futures and the impact that they can have more broadly on the world.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:07

And I think that's something that's sometimes not seen is that how much it empowers children. And if you talk to anybody that works with young people, their need to feel that they can influence and be a positive impact on the world around them is so good for their mental health. To be able to understand how they can do that and be taught the skills to be able to do that effectively, I think is such a unique skill that RE teaches them. So let's apply that to the modern world. If we look at the UK and maybe more broadly, sort of internationally, the world that we are currently living in 2025, why do you think RE is such an important subject for modern society?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

I mean, I've been doing this now for a long time, and I think over the 30 or so years that I've been involved in education, the world has changed quite profoundly. Particularly, I think, for young people. And certainly, I think more now we're dealing with young people who are really questioning their own sense of who they are, what they're about, what they're going to do, more broadly than jobs and the mechanics around earning money and paying for things. But there seems to me a sort of fundamental shift in purpose. They're being bombarded now with information that's very difficult to control, very difficult to quality assure. Attention spans are massively depleting as everything comes in bite-sized chunks, and the space and time to reflect and to have periods of quiet and taking time to make considered decisions seems to me to be more challenging now than it's ever been. Religious studies at its best enables people to do those things and to have time to read and to think and to contemplate in a world. That's increasingly moving at a pace which is sort of contrary to that. So I think over 30 years, in some ways, people might argue that it's less important than it's ever been, but in my view, it's never been more important to understand difference and diversity and developing skills of tolerance and empathy. These things I think have certainly in my teaching career never been more important than they are now. And whilst religion as an institutional organization, maybe the views around that have changed, I think, considerably over the time that I've been in schools. The need for people to be able to think in a structured way and develop an understanding of others, I don't think it's ever been more important than now. I think young people are being bombarded with information through various sources that it's impossible to control. And we talk in schools, don't we, about you know, cognitive overload and chunking and trying to manage information in a way that children can understand. And as soon as they leave school, there's this enormous amount of information being transmitted to them in small bite-sized chunks at a volume that their minds, I'm sure, can't possibly process. And the ability to be able to filter through all of that and decide who they are and what they want to be and what they want to do in an increasingly multicultural and cosmopolitan world, I think is a challenge. And I do think we need to endeavour to try and help them to filter through the information in order to establish a sense of who they are and what they are and what they think. So I think in terms of national identity, that's a very challenging question, isn't it, at the moment? And I'm a very internationally minded person, partly because of my own family dynamic, perhaps, but I think it's more about trying to understand the world in which we live as it is now. And religious studies, it seems to me, is an incredibly important part of that because, in some ways, it's the subject that addresses those challenges about now more than others.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:14

And I think you're right that actually we have a duty of care to prepare our children for the reality that they're going to face when they leave school. And so, therefore, all subjects that we teach at our schools have got to do that. And RE specifically has to equip them to navigate and be empowered within the situation that we find ourselves in and teach them the right skills, and that is our duty as schools to do that. In terms of your career, can you see sort of how teaching RE has prepared you for the roles that you've done?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

I was asked an interesting question at my interview for the role at Harris Bromley, and the person who asked me the question was a mathematician. And she asked the question in my previous roles in leadership as a mathematician, I'm informed by numbers. That's the currency that I'm really familiar with. And the question was, how has the subject that you teach, how has that informed your approach to leadership? Which I thought was a really good question. And I think in terms of my career, I've always been driven by meeting people where they are in terms of their level of experience and understanding, whether that's students or adults. I ask far more questions than many, I think, which has been informed by my training of my love of subject. And so those two skills I think are really important in leadership. And I always try really hard to understand where somebody's coming from. And often in schools, I think, and I suspect in larger organizations, there's a kind of a mirage around the difference between reality and what people perceive to be the reality in school leadership and certainly in school improvement, which is what I've been doing for much of the last 15 years or so. You have to really truly understand where you actually are. What's the organization actually like? What do the people that you're working with feel and understand about the situation that we're now in, and moving from that principle to where you need to get to? I think you know, empathy and understanding and tolerance and all of those things that you learn as a religious studies teacher, they're all critically important skills, I think, for leaders. Because certainly, in the last period of time when I've gone into schools, as new head or principal or exec, you have to understand how the organization feels as a result of the experience that it's been through. And a lot of what I've done has been going into schools that perhaps have needed some help, I think. And you have to understand what that previous experience has done to that organization and move from that position to where you want it to be. And it's the same with children and students in schools. We were talking last week with the Year 11s, and you know, they're in their final year of exams, they're very nervous about things. As a leadership team, we were spending a lot of time trying to understand how they actually feel about the situation that they're in at the moment. Every year 11 I've ever worked with feels differently at different points of their final preparations. And what we do as a school has to match their actual reality of where they are now. And I think that's really important in terms of leadership and certainly informs most of my work. I always ask the question of people that I'm working with: how does it feel today? How does the school feel? And I believe that to be a really important starting point. You can feel how an organization is, and that kind of organic process of improvement. And you move from where the organization is at any point into where you want it to be. And I think I've learned that certainly in my degree, and certainly in my studies in preparation for classes that I've taught, that sense of moving from where we actually are and understanding and being tolerant of the situation that we're actually in. And I think that's a really important part of headship and certainly the role that I've been doing more recently.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:02

It starts with people, isn't it? It's where people are at, and it's listening and being open and empathetic, but also trying to build in the skills that's going to take that person where they could be. It's about holding different viewpoints in your head at one time, but it's also being aware of your own positionality, which I think is a skill that RE teaches. Because where is my bias and where am I coming into this situation with a bias that could actually impact how effective my leadership is because I'm bringing my own misconceptions, preconceptions, ideals, or whatever it might be, it's kind of removing those and kind of being a bit more objective and looking at the real situation. That's a really interesting answer you gave.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:46

I mean, I think by its nature, religious studies and I taught a lot of philosophy and ethics, and by its nature, there is no commonly agreed answer to most of the questions that you ask. And therefore, you're dealing with difference and diversity of view constantly. And you become equipped, I think, at being able to deal with many diverging views and processing those and then deciding what your view is in light of all of the things that you've considered. If you're in a school leadership position, that's an incredibly important skill because the information that's coming at you, if you're a head teacher, from compliance to health and safety to results to parent views to student views to staff views, the local community positions on things, different heads of subjects have all got different views on how things should be. So you're constantly having to process all of this different information that's coming to you. And ultimately, if you're a successful headteacher, you have to make a decision and drive forwards with one view. So I think religious studies, certainly in my experience of being working with it, it's been a critically important part of being able to manage that difference of opinion. But also, you know, one of the best pieces of advice I got was nobody wants an indecisive head teacher. So you have to make decisions and drive forwards. But in order to do that, you've got to be able to process all of the information. And certainly I think religious studies has been a really important part of that journey for me.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:18

Particularly that sort of philosophical way of thinking, which is let's look at what our evidence is and let's try and find a logical way forward to come to some kind of conclusion that is sound. You know, and I think although we can be very pluralistic, I think as RE teachers, and we can celebrate diversity, there is the underlying belief that there are wrongs, but there might be more than one right. But actually, we've got to look at our context and find the right thing for that context. And I think that sort of skill where you're looking at quite complex conceptual ideas, but trying to find a logical path forward to come to a conclusion, I think is something that we are very skilled at and what the best of RE can provide with our young people, so that actually we can train them to go into leadership where they've got those soft skills, those people skills, but they also know how to logically think through problems to apply to a situation in order to kind of, you know, exact change.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

Yeah, but I think in my view, there are things which are wrong and there are things which are right. And I have developed pretty clear views around how I think things should be done. But I do think lots of people talk about place-based change and making sure that you're improving the organization that you're actually in rather than the organization that you think you're in. And one of the things I think is common in terms of going into schools that perhaps need some help, often the strategies are right, but they don't match the organization that the people are in. I think that's really important. And there are often more than one way to get to where you need to get to, and it doesn't actually matter which of the options you choose, as long as you you can unify people behind that strategy. I think that ability to be able to process lots of different views and then galvanize a large organization behind one of those views requires quite a lot of soft skills, I suppose. And all of those things are aspects of a strong religious studies curriculum.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:14

I'm just interested now in what advice you would have for anyone who is thinking about becoming an RE teacher, or maybe has never thought about becoming an RE teacher and has listened to this episode and went, oh, okay, I could consider this. What would you say to those people?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:30

In some ways, I think, in terms of the work that I've been doing, and I don't want to say anything negatively about other subjects because clearly the all subjects in schools are critically important, but I do think religious studies has a particular ability to do things that other subjects perhaps can't. And from my perspective, it's certainly one of the most important subjects in a school, and you can change the community in an incredibly positive way through a well-considered and well-delivered religious studies curriculum. So I think from that point of view, if you wanted to become a religious studies teacher, you would be endeavoring to work in a subject that has the power to transform lives way beyond probably what you realize you'd be able to do. So I think it's a very noble and important endeavor.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

I think that's the first thing. And I think in terms of the skills that you develop, if you're interested in in leadership and in transformational change, certainly from my perspective, I wouldn't be in the position that I'm in, I don't think, if I hadn't come through the route that I came through. And a lot of the skills that I developed around empathy and tolerance and understanding have helped me, I think, in the role that I'm doing. And I I don't know whether I'm doing the role well or not, but I'm certainly doing my best. And I think those skills that you learn by delivering religious studies and working with younger people have, I think, in my experience been critical to the view that I have around how leadership can transform lives in schools.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:02

One thing I will say, David, is that I've not had many dealings with you in the last 80 months, any one or two times, and it's been always very positive, and you've stood out as someone with a lot of wisdom and a lot of kindness and a lot of compassion, but also very, very committed to high standards. Every conversation I've had with anybody about you, they speak very positively about your leadership. But also just on a personal level, it's so refreshing to have people that champion RE in sort of the leadership systems of a school. It's a lovely context to work in a trust that does value RE. And it's because of people like you that sort of champion it, and I really appreciate that. Do you mind me asking? I think there's a misconception, possibly, that to be an RE teacher you have to be religious. And actually, RE teachers come from very, very different religion and worldviews and are non-religious as well. Do you mind sort of just sharing with us your personal worldview?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

So my family are Catholic. We were brought up in Catholic schools. I worked in Catholic schools for the first eight years of my teaching career until 2003. I think over time my faith has been a challenging thing, and probably at this point in time I'm not religious, I would say. And that's been my sort of position for a while now. I don't know whether that's changed my view on teaching religious studies because I never considered it to be a vehicle for changing people's views or confirming views. I always felt it was a powerful way of helping people to think and understand difference and diversity. So I don't think my philosophy on teaching religious studies has changed particularly over my career because I never considered it to be a way of enabling others to believe the same things that I believe. That was never my view on religious studies. So I think many of the teachers that I've worked with or worked with, you know, are not particularly coming at it from a faith perspective. And I don't think that's an issue at all. I think it's about understanding the world in which we live from whichever perspective you're you're viewing it. And that's as valuable from a position of religiosity or not, I think.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:17

And I think that sort of phrase, we teach people how to think, not what to think. And I think that, you know, nobody stands nowhere, that's the big thing. We all have our own perspective and we come to teaching from that perspective. But I think what you've just illustrated is that worldviews are not static, that your worldview changes over time. And so to say that you have to have a particular worldview in order to teach RE doesn't make any logical sense because worldviews are not static and they change over time. And so what we want, what we celebrate is diversity. And that is the same in leadership. The more diverse your leadership group is, the more effective that school will become. And I think, in the same as teaching RE, the more diversity we have amongst our teachers, I think the stronger the curriculum becomes. I think the stronger our teaching becomes. And I think it allows children to see themselves in our subject, which is really important. If we're talking about the new Osted guidelines about inclusion, diversity creates inclusion. And so I think it's interesting to see that your worldview has changed. Thank you for those answers, David. Karen, I want to bring you back in for a second because I want to look at some sort of bigger issues in terms of kind of what's going on in the UK more generally and how RE fits into that. And so one thing the government is currently talking a lot about, and it's something that's been brought up a few times as we've been talking, is this idea about community cohesion. What does the government mean by this and how does RE support that value? Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:43

Okay, so as I said, I think Monique spoke beautifully about community cohesion. I think it was really kind of woven through what she was saying. And it's clearly something the world we're living in at the moment, and the news and a lot of the issues that we're experiencing, it's not surprising that that's community cohesion and how we can get along with people, people that we don't necessarily agree with, people who have very different worldviews from our own. We've got an increasingly diverse society, and we need to find a way to kind of rub along together. And for me, I love this phrase about disagreeing agreeably. And I think that's one of the things I've always wanted to encourage in my classroom is that no, we're not all going to agree on everything. We're not all going to see things in the same way, but we need to find a way to live with our differences, to listen to each other. And I think I go back to what exciting time is for RE. There are two bits of the curriculum and assessment review that I've just pulled out that I thought kind of shows that there's a recognition at this really high level about RE's contribution to this. So on page 108, it said RE supports strong, secure, and confident communities with good relationships. And was there ever a time that we needed a subject that can help us to do that? And the second was, and I think we've just heard about classrooms, wonderful classrooms where this is happening every day. RE provides a space for pupils to learn about human mutuality and reciprocity. It develops their capacity to understand one another. And I think we've just had a number of illustrations of how we're doing that in RE. Anybody who knows me will know that one of the things that I'm really passionate about is intellectual humility and that we need to put our egos aside. We need to learn to really listen because, you know, as I said earlier, we all have biases, none of us is neutral, and we need to step back and we need to examine ourselves and we need to listen more carefully to one another. And RE is absolutely the subject where that can happen, and that's what we need to have community cohesion.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:42

And actually, we've got to put our words into practice when we're trying to create a curriculum and get consensus amongst our, you know, the whole RE community. Absolutely. Is that we've got to go in, being aware of our biases, listening to each other, and actually find a solution. So this is going to be a really interesting process to put into practice what we're teaching.

SPEAKER_08 1:23:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:00

The other thing we've mentioned it a few times because we've mentioned sort of different people within the community. Talk to me a little bit about the RE community more widely and why it's such a wonderful community to be part of.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:12

I mean, I don't want to diss other subjects, and I'm sure they have wonderful subject associations and so on, but I genuinely, talking to colleagues from other subjects, genuinely believe that RE is unique in terms of just the diverse number of organisations we have. Maybe it comes from being, you know, historically a Cinderella subject and perhaps feeling that we weren't always understood and so on, but there are so many individuals and so many organisations really committed to furthering RE and giving you opportunities. So that reason I went in some detail about my career was because it illustrates just the opportunities that I've been afforded. You know, where do you get a term off to go and do research? Where do you get a leadership course where you get mentored by experts who really challenge you to read very academic stuff, to really think about where you're going and where your career is going. This is the community. When you become an RE teacher, you join this community. And at every stage of your career, there are new opportunities and new challenges and so on. So whether it's Nartra, the National Association of Teachers of RE, whether it's Farmington, whether it's Cullum St. Gabriel's, whether it's the wonderful organizations that are offering to fund RE teachers and projects. If at any point you had an idea that you wanted to pursue, there are places you could go and people you could talk to and you could find that funding. The only thing's holding you back is time and energy, really. And then just friendship, you know, so there are people who are genuine friends that you've made through being an RE teacher. A lot of people I consider to be friends, you know, through social, like yourself, Louisa, through social media initially and so on. It's just a really, really joyous thing to be part of.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:49

It really is. I found my people, I found my tribe.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:53

Because also I think they share that passion but compassion. They're ambitious but humble. And so you've got these kind of contradictions that make these people really beautiful and really supportive and encouraging and pushing you forward to be better. One thing that's come out a lot from the people that we've spoken to today, and a word that's been used is diversity. I know, Karen, you've got a few statistics and numbers maybe about sort of the diverse backgrounds that RE people come from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:26:21

So I'm not going to quote you loads of numbers and so on, but you know, Nartre, one of the things they do is they kind of monitor and produce reports about what's happening in the world of RE. And their data shows consistently that RE attracts a more diverse applicant pool than most subjects in terms of ethnicity and so on. In fact, some recent data I saw showed that RE teachers are significantly more diverse than the general population, almost double. So we do tend in RE to attract a wider variety of people. And if I just talk about my PGC trainees in the last two years, in terms of age, I've had trainees from 22 to 60. I've had people of all sorts of backgrounds in terms of their ethnicity, their nationality. I've had Ukrainians, I've had Nigerians, people from Italy in terms of their backgrounds, their degrees, their studying theologians, philosophers, sociologists, criminologists, psychologists, English and history graduates. But each one of them, when you actually sit and talk to them, a bit like the people we've talked to today, is hugely diverse and that brings so much share. So I think RE people, um I think perhaps is the nature of the subject, RE attract to people who have had all kinds of experiences, all kinds of backgrounds, and are genuinely curious about life and the human condition and human existence. I think that's the thing that unites us.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:41

And just a quick practical question in terms of what qualifications you need to be an RE teacher.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:46

Okay, so you need a good relevant degree, but I say relevant is hugely broad because I've always said I challenge you to find me any subject that we can't make really meaningful links with our subject, whatever it is. And when I interview an applicant, what I'd get them to do is do a subject knowledge audit to see where they're at. I would expect there to be gaps, I would expect there to be, you know, significant weaknesses. But what I'm looking for is can you talk about the relevance of your degree? Can you talk with more passion and interest about how your particular area of expertise relates and also how the skills you've developed and so on can be applied. So there would be that. And I'd be looking for somebody who's enthusiastic, generally knowledgeable. I think Megan said about being aware of what's going on in the world, absolutely crucial. The Religion Media Centre, if you sign up for the Religion Media Centre, you get daily updates with what's happening in the world, and it's the best. CPD for RE teachers is just drops into inbox every day and it's just knowing what's going on in the world and looking for a genuine passion for teaching the subject. I think that's the most important qualification.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:51

Yeah, I've got an interview with the RMC as well, Religion and Media Centre.

SPEAKER_08 1:28:54

Oh, brilliant.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:55

So if you want to find out more about them, then absolutely. And actually, even if you think about something like maths, if you think of something like Blaise Pascal, you know, a lot of sort of ancient philosophers were mathematicians, were scientists. And the links with it didn't have these separate disciplines. Yeah, absolutely. Right, exactly. And numbers and all of this kind of stuff, and logical approaches to argument and making arguments and unpacking these in sort of premises and things like that.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:18

I've not interviewed a mathematician yet, but I'm looking forward to the day that I do.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:22

Yes, 100%. You heard it here first. Megan, could I ask for your kind of final thoughts? So it could be anything you just want to leave our listeners with a sort of final message.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:33

I think RE is really valuable and I'm biased because I teach it, but I think for all of the reasons that all of my colleagues here today have highlighted, it's really, really essential that we can live together cohesively. When you look at the violence and the horrific things that are going on in our world, that highlights so much that cohesion starts with us, and that's such a privileged position for us to be in. And I would encourage anybody to come on board and help us educate and promote that diversity and that cohesion that we desperately need.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:03

Amazing. Thank you, Megan. Lucy.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:06

No, I agree with Megan. I think RE is so fascinating. I mean, at the start of all of your podcasts, you're like, I'm gonna prove that RE is boring, but it really, really isn't. And it's so fascinating, and it is literally everywhere that it's just so important to kind of have an awareness of.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:24

Brilliant. Thank you, Lucy. Damn deep, sort of final thoughts that you want to leave our listeners with.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:29

I think genuinely, like Ari isn't just about like Megan and Lucy and everybody else has been talking about. RE isn't about telling the students what to believe. It's about genuinely just teaching them how to think critically. The subject's just about worldviews, ethics, meaning. The toolkit we're teaching right now is just naturally there to stretch each student to think more critically about the world they're living in. How is religion a social construct? Is it a strong social construct or is it something natural? It's getting them to think from a social science view, a philosophical view, a theological view. It's just broadening their worldviews. And the misconception is that the RE is just about learning religions. It's definitely not. In reality, it's one of the most intellectually demanding subjects in the curriculum because it asks students to interpret, question, and make sense of human experience. And they realize that sometimes religion, again, like Karen mentioned earlier, will teach about the dark sides of religion and how it can be used to control individuals, but not just also control people, but how it can also liberate them. So teaching them keywords like liberation, theology, that sort of stuff, just to enlighten their well-being even more.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:35

And actually, we obviously we do teach about religion, and we do it from a point of view, as Karen said earlier, of lived experience. Because religion is not something that happens in a textbook, religion is something that people live out every day. And actually, Monique, you said something earlier that reminded me of my view that a kid asked me the other day, Miss, are you religious? And I said, I'm not one religion, I said I'm all of them. And I said, there's something in every religion that I love that inspires me, that you know helps me to be a better person, but I couldn't choose just one because I like all of them. And so actually, there is this idea of engaging with religion, which I think is important, but it's so much more than that, exactly as you said, Dundee, and using those skills that are so transferable. Monique, final thoughts from you.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:16

My final thought for today's episode is just to anyone who is uncertain or worried, or doesn't think that they have what it takes to get into teaching RE, I would just say remove all of those nerves and worries because every single person that has gone into RE teaching has felt like that before. To anyone that might be worried about not knowing everything, even as experienced RE teachers, we are still learning and still finding out more. There is it's impossible to know everything about religion, philosophy, and ethics. So it's a journey for yourself and for your students as well. And just go for it. Absolutely go for it. I couldn't recommend it more. It's one of the best decisions I've ever made. So please go for it.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:02

David, what would be your final words that you'd want to say to me?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:05

Well, I think if you're a student of religious studies at GCC or A level or before that, I would encourage you to become a religious studies teacher. I've worked with teachers who I taught religious studies to in schools, who subsequently went on to become teachers. And that's a fantastic situation to be in, and always a bit nerve-wracking when I meet them for the first time. As I asked the question, Did you do all right? Uh, did I do an okay job teaching you?

SPEAKER_07 1:33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:34

So I think that's the answer I would give to students of GCC and A-Level Religious Studies, continue to study it, become a fantastic teacher of religious studies, and adults who are considering becoming teachers of religious studies, I think it's an incredible subject where you will constantly be amazed by the capacity that young people have to be empathetic and joyful and if you want to spend your life in a joyful endeavour with young people who will amaze you, then you should become a religious studies teacher like I am, I think.

SPEAKER_07 1:34:11

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's beautiful, thank you. That's so great. I want to thank all of my guests. I want to thank Karen, Dan Deep, Monique, Megan, Lucy, and David. And I want to thank you all for listening. This podcast is supported by ReimaginingEducation at reimaginingeducation.uk. My name is Louisa Jane Smith, and this has been the RE Podcast. The podcast, for those of you who think Hori is boring. But it's not. It is a dynamic, multidisciplinary subject with transferable skills relevant to life in modern Britain. It's challenging, academic, invigorating, and a complete privilege to teach because it gets to the heart of what it means to be human and it empowers our young people to find out and explore who they are and who they want to be. But thank you so much for letting us bore the life out of you.