The Boyk Brief
Go into chambers with attorneys Chuck Boyk, Mike Bruno, Zac Shaffer, and the attorneys of Charles Boyk Law Offices on The Boyk Brief, as we talk with interesting personalities from the legal world, celebrities, experts, business & community leaders, and other engaging people about a variety of topics.
The Boyk Brief
A Jerk, a Hat, and a Pair of Heels: How Presentation Can Influence a Case
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In this episode, Attorney Mike Bruno shares stories about cases that hinged not so much on evidence, but on footwear, being a jerk, and humiliating a juror. Fellow Attorney Katie Harris talks about witnessing a serious clothing misjudgment in court and her own experiences as a juror. Katie also gives tips for appearing in court virtually, and Mike tells a story of how that was happening… in the 80s! Mike wraps up with a revealing story about an item of clothing that had his late father, Attorney Dominic Bruno, asked to leave the court!
Welcome to the Boyk Brief. I'm Desmond Stru, Marketing Director at the Charles E. Boyk Law Offices, located in Toledo, Ohio. The Boyk Brief invites you to go into chambers with the attorneys of Boyk Law as we explore real legal cases, talk to fascinating people in our area, raise awareness about community initiatives, and share helpful information about protecting yourself and those you love. In this episode, attorney Mike Bruno shares stories about cases that hinge not so much on evidence, but on footwear, being a jerk, and humiliating a juror. Fellow attorney Katie Harris talks about witnessing a serious clothing misjudgment in court and her own experiences as a juror. Katie also gives tips for appearing in court virtually, and Mike tells a surprising story about how that was happening in the 80s. Mike wraps up with a revealing story about an item of clothing that had his late father, attorney Dominic Bruno, actually asked to leave court. All of this coming up right now on the Boyk Brief. Today we have the illustrious Mike Bruno and the incredible, whip smart, talented Katie Harris, both from Charles Boyk Law Offices. How are you two doing today?
SPEAKER_02Doing really well, Desmond. How about you?
SPEAKER_01I am doing extremely well. I uh I'm disappointed though uh in Mike because I wore my bow tie today specifically so that we could be bowtie buddies and he's wearing a regular tie today.
SPEAKER_00Well, I've been described as illustrious only. Katie had about three or four dis different descriptors, so I'm upset with you.
SPEAKER_01Well, why don't I add sartorial master to your list of titles? Keep going. Okay, uh ruggedly handsome sartorial master.
SPEAKER_00All right, allow me to change my wardrobe now.
SPEAKER_01In your convertible, you've just got like a box of bow ties ready to go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a stash.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, as as do I. If only I had the convertible. Today we're talking about how to behave in court or how to behave in really any legal setting. This is something that I've heard quite a lot about since I started at the firm, making sure that people are presenting themselves in the best way for whatever situation they're in. Obviously, this applies to us in general life, but in a legal setting, it can have pretty serious ramifications. So, Katie, can you tell us a little bit about why is this such an important subject?
SPEAKER_02When we go into court or we go into a deposition which is a little bit less formal, but still a very important piece of our clients' cases, you only get one chance to make a first impression, whether that's on the judge, defense counsel, whoever it might be. And we all know that from childhood, okay, you only get one chance to make a first impression. It's really, really it comes into play a lot, I think, in these cases. And what I always kind of think is we never want to force our clients to be somebody that they're not. But my general rule of thumb is you want to be the best version of yourself, whether that's appearance-wise, the way you're presenting yourself, interacting with people, behaving, um be true to yourself while being the best version of yourself. And especially when you're talking in a deposition setting, you're sitting across the table getting asked questions by defense counsel. The first thing they're gonna do when they go back to their office is not only write down what you told them about your case, your injuries, uh, what happened in the accident, how you're doing now. That's all very important. And it's gonna get written down and sent over to the insurance company, but they're also going to write down little notes about how you acted, what their perception of you was, were you dressed sloppily, all those little things that build into the whole picture of who you are as a witness, should we eventually get down the road to a trial setting?
SPEAKER_01Wow. Your your appearance and how you behave can make a really big difference in the success or and the outcome of your case.
SPEAKER_02It can set a tone for sure, is what I would say.
SPEAKER_01That makes sense. So, Mike, what what type of advice do you give specifically to your clients in a general sense when you're getting ready for something like this?
SPEAKER_00Well, Desmond, we live in a different age. And because I'm the oldest man in the room, I'll tell you a little bit about the differences. Fifty years ago, when I took my first plane ride with my family, everyone got dressed up. Men wore coats and ties to get on an airplane. Well, that's changed. Sixty years ago, most men wore dress hats. Uh, now we're living in a time when it's not uncommon to see someone wearing their PJs at the grocery store. So we now have to counsel our clients on the appropriateness of showing the proper respect within the courtroom. And that doesn't mean they have to wear a coat and tie if they're a guy or a formal dress if they're a lady. But it does mean that you are going to a formal setting and you are showing respect. And so years ago as a prosecutor, I can remember sitting in the courtroom and Judge Restivo, who's long gone, calling a case, and a woman came up with a halter top on and he took one look at her and sent her home. Wow.
SPEAKER_02You know, uh Judge Christensen at the Toledo Municipal Court used to do similar things. I worked as an intern for the the public defender's office when I was in law school, and I remember he used to have rules posted outside his courtroom that if you're wearing shorts, you can't come in. And um, as people who are are growing up in maybe a more career like law or something like that, it might be surprising to us to think people would show up to court in shorts. But man, they do, and he would be really, really mean to them.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow. Well, and you know, that is uh it's an interesting thing. And you're Mike, you're right, that the culture has around dress and attire and appearance has dramatically changed since your first plane ride. But as we get into, you know, we step into the courtroom, the idea is essentially to dress in the best version of yourself, as Katie said, but also to you spoke about the respect for the court. So what does that mean for a uh client and what does that mean for people on the other side of the room?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh it all depends too on the setting. If we're simply going in front of a judge for some sort of a hearing where the judge is going to make a decision, we don't want the client to come in dressed in such a fashion that they're digging themselves a hole that they can't get out of. Okay. We don't want to prejudice the mind of the court before any facts are heard. If it's a jury trial, then you've got eight pairs of eyes sitting in that jury box at all times during the trial, looking at the client or the lawyers, out the window, whatever. But you can't expect that the jurors are going to miss out on something. So years ago, I had a trial, and it's a trial about what to wear and how something you wear in the courtroom could affect the outcome. But, anyways, my client and I was defending in those days. My client rear-ended a lady. So it was a clear liability case. The case could not be settled. So we were in the courtroom. But a week before I brought my client in and said, here's how it goes in the courtroom. We got to show respect. We stand when the court when the judge comes in. We wait till the judge lets us sit down. Uh, it's yes, Your Honor, no, Your Honor, all that kind of stuff. But I noticed he wore an earring. And the earring wasn't just an ordinary earring, it had a little saying on it. And I won't give the full saying, but it started with a letter F and ended with off. Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00And so I said, Mr. Client, you're gonna leave the earring at home because that would not be the appropriate thing to wear in a jury trial. He says, No, I can't. I says, I I've got to wear it. He says, My best friend gave it to me. He died a week later. I've never taken it off. I never will. So I'm like, okay, well, there's another thing to worry about in court. So as it turned out, he didn't wear the earring. But as it turned out, um, on the case itself, the uh person that was injured was a female, and we had an all-female jury. And I don't know what the case was worth, probably between $4,500 and $8,000. So we're expecting a verdict within that range. There's a knock on the door, the jury announces they have a verdict. They come in and hand it to the judge. The judge reads it that they're finding zero damages on the case. Whoa. And so you know, I look at my client, he kind of looks at me, we're kind of shrugging, but hey, I'm the defense lawyer, so I'm not gonna say anything. And we leave the courtroom and I went back to my office. I get a call from the bailiff later that afternoon. He says, Mike, do you want to know why the jury decided not to award the female plaintiff any damages? I said, Brilliant lawyering on the defense side. Well, clearly.
SPEAKER_02Obviously.
SPEAKER_00He said, No, not at all. She's wearing high heels. I said, Okay. He says, Well, one of the jurors said, Look, I've had some back problems. I can't wear heels. And this lady's wearing high heels in the courtroom, said she had back problems, so she's lying. Wow. Convinced the other seven jurors, and they gave her a zero. So what I thought was going to turn on an earring, turned on a pair of high-heeled shoes.
SPEAKER_02You know, that doesn't surprise me at all. Um, but it really makes me think about something that Desmond, you and I have actually talked a little bit about before, as far as um, you know, men, lawyers, clients, whatever, they're it's kind of easy for them. They just put on their dress shoes, dress pants, a button-up shirt, maybe a tie. If you're the lawyer, you're gonna be wearing a full suit going into trial. I just women have so many more, uh, I guess we've got more options of what we can wear, right? But at the same time, we've got a lot more of those just weird lines to try to tread very carefully. And I can totally see how that plaintiff, even with her attorney, may have had that conversation of we're gonna be in a in a formal setting, we need to be respectful, you need to be dressed up. And so, to a lot of women, myself included, my initial thought is that means I should probably be wearing a pair of high heels. I even know women who've been in the legal profession, even in the 20 teens, who are have worked at places where they're expected to dress a certain way that includes heels. And just, man, to hear that it hinged on that is, I mean, it's just really something.
SPEAKER_01So, Katie, you also have a story about this, but in that instance, the item of clothing actually related to the reason the person was in court. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it's interesting. Like Mike, I come from a background where I worked as a defense attorney for a few years before moving over to represent plaintiffs, finally. When I was a defense attorney, I was working on a case that was a bar fight case, right? So a guy got injured at a bar. And as you might imagine, when those kinds of injuries happen, there's there's a decent amount of alcohol that's been consumed generally, which was the fact in this case. So we go to take the deposition, and in walks the plaintiff, and he's got, I think he had jeans on, a t-shirt, and he's wearing very visibly a Budweiser hat.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_02And it just was so funny to me. I was new. I had I'd been working at the courts for a few years. I was just new into actual private practice of law. It was the first deposition I ever went to. And I remember just sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, why would you, in a case that involves your alcohol consumption and things like that, why are you walking in here wearing a beer hat? I just couldn't believe it. So yeah, like definitely you don't, you don't want to do that. At the very least, don't do that. Yeah. I mean, it's just again, it's one of those little things where are you making the best impression that you can by wearing something like that? Do you really want the defense attorney to go right to the insurance rep, Mr. Plaintiff showed up and he was wearing a Budweiser or a Bud Light hat to his deposition? Uh it's not, it's not the impression you want to be making. It's not helpful for your case by any means.
SPEAKER_01And you might also say the opposite is true as well. Chuck told me a story about a gentleman who was an avid motorcycle rider that he had represented. The gentleman had the whole look going, the big beard, long hair, tattoos, and a leather jacket. When he arrived in court, however, he was wearing a three-piece suit and dress shoes with his hair pulled back. He simply looked like a different person. According to Chuck, it didn't sway the case against him, but it made a very strong, almost confusing impression on everyone in the courtroom.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if you're not being authentic to yourself, if you're trying to be a square peg and a round hole, your uncomfortableness is going to show through in a way that will I mean it it could manifest in any number of ways. If you are uncomfortable and you seem nervous, then especially if you're in front of a jury, is how is the jury gonna interpret those body language cues? You feel stiff and uncomfortable in what you're wearing because it's not true to you. Are they gonna look at you and think that your fidgety behavior is because of you not being truthful or something like that? That that would be my biggest worry is that you just give off all of these cues that people are gonna interpret in a way we have no control over.
SPEAKER_00I would agree to a certain extent, but there are some people that if they stay within themselves should never enter in a courtroom. No, that's absolutely true. And I recall a case I tried years ago where my client was a big jerk. Okay, that's the easiest way to put it. Absolute jerk, and he couldn't hide it. I said, You gotta calm down, you gotta keep your mouth shut, don't do this, don't do that, blah, blah, blah. Just sit there, smile. Well, couldn't couldn't abide by those instructions. So during every recess, this particular client had his cell phone on counsel tables and was barking out orders to whomever his minions were at home or work or whatever, as if he was master of the universe. And he's doing this in plain sight of all the jurors who are coming in and out of the courtroom during, well, they hated him. Yeah. Their verdict reflected that. Yeah. A day or two later, they absolutely hated him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, when you've got personality things like that, I think I was talking more in the sense of like, you don't want to, like Desmond's example, you don't want to show up in a three-piece suit if that's going to make you sit fidgety. But if you're a jerk, oh my gosh. Nope. You can't do that. And if we're not going to be able to help you rein that in, then we're probably going to recommend that you're going to get a bad outcome if you go in front of a jury.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So in the same case, uh, I put the guy on the witness stand and I, you know, state your name, where do you live? Blah, blah, blah. And then I ask him a question about the accident, and he says something completely non sequitur. It didn't even answer the question. And I said, I'm sorry. What did you say? He says, I was joking. Oh God.
SPEAKER_02All right. Now's not really the time, but okay.
SPEAKER_00Here we are. You know, if I wasn't in that courtroom, and if there wasn't a judge and the jury, you know, within four or five feet of me, I would have walked up and just strangled my own fun. Right.
SPEAKER_01But I couldn't do that. No. So maybe this is my lack of understanding about how trials work and how decisions are made there, but it sounds like juries sometimes make judgments based on appearances and impressions, not just the evidence that we would assume they would. Mike, is that fair to say? That's not only fair, that's widespread.
SPEAKER_00Like I said, jurors decide cases on a number of different grounds. They'll pay some attention to the facts. They might listen to a little bit of what the law is that the judge gives, but uh they're looking at everybody and they're trying to do what's right, and they're gonna play favorites, and they're gonna, you know, go in the jury room and communicate with each other. We're living in a time now where there's polarization going on. So people can easily criticize and find things not to like about someone. And so my thought process is that those eight sets of eyes that are sitting are gonna look for some reason not to give my client the money he or she deserves. They're gonna look for it. And it might not be found in the evidence, it might not be found in the jury instructions, but it may be found on what's going on in the courtroom, outside the courtroom during a recess, or whatever. So I've heard too many stories and I've lived too many of that, too much of that over the course of 37 years of practice.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, I just was thinking because you said they'll they'll listen to a little bit of the law that the judge gives them as lawyers getting ready for trial. I don't know. Mike, it's probably been a long time since you've had to actually sit down and do them yourself because you now have little minions like me to do them for you. But jury instructions, that law that we give to the judge, who gives it to the jury, they take so much time. And we have these little or large disputes with the attorneys on the other side about, oh, how do we want to explain this? And then everybody kind of knows that you can give them the law, but the jurors are gonna go in and somebody might have checked their watch at a particular time. The the plaintiff or the defendant might have checked their watch or something that makes the jury think that they're bored, or any number of things that have nothing to do with the actual case. Um they they talk about it uh and it it factors into their decision. Juries really become a weird little social group where, yes, Mike, I think from everything I've seen, they want to they want to do the right thing. They do. Um and they become this odd little social group that I was on a I was on a criminal jury once, and it was when I was in law school, so I probably knew more than any of the other jurors about the way the process is supposed to work. But even there, you listen to the judge say you can only consider the things that are evidence. And the people that were in my group with me were trying to talk about other things and speculating about things and trying to make up their own stories to fill in gaps, and it just is um, it's not a perfect science. And I'm curious because Mike has been at this for such a long time. Uh, if there are experiences you've had where you have thought for sure that a juror was either on your side or was definitely against you, and it's come out just completely the opposite way when you've talked to them after.
SPEAKER_00I was thinking of jurors on my side, and I knew that they were on my side. And uh, you know you're trying too many cases when you start having repeat jurors on subsequent trials. That's when you know you're trying a lot of cases. Oh, wow. So the one lady I'm thinking of was seated on a panel, and the other lawyer was questioning her. And you're able to ask questions about background and employment and you know, some limited information that way. But the rule is you don't get too personal. And the best of all rule is don't embarrass that juror. Okay. Well, opposing counsel certainly did his best job of doing both, getting personal and embarrassing her. Because this lady was out of work, she had children, and he all of a sudden just asked the question, I don't understand, Ms. So-and-so. How do you support yourself? Oh my god. And then there was this pause, and it seemed like forever, and then she said, welfare. And I thought, well, he's gonna bounce her off this jury because we each get three challenges for any reason you want, which you don't have to state the reason. He left her on.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00Well, long story short, she became the four person of the jury and knew exactly what she had to do so that this other guy's client lost the case. Wow. Basically inserted the knife and twisted it and taught him a lesson. You said she became the four person? Right. What does that mean? Uh when the jurors go into the room at the very beginning, their first job is to pick a leader. Okay. A four-person, we used to call it a foreman, but now it's a four-person, uh, who basically uh keeps things organized, makes sure everyone's focused, isn't a decider or anything, has the same vote that everyone else has, but is basically the organizer uh of the group.
SPEAKER_01Is that the person who in in the dramas and uh in the movies is the person who stands up at the end and says, we the jury find the defendant blank?
SPEAKER_00Yes, because the judge would ask the who the four-person is, and that person would stand.
SPEAKER_02You know, that story about the lawyer just purposefully humiliating her in front of a group of people, I can't believe that. And most of the lawyers that I interact with and Mike that you interact with are great people. We get along with them, and everybody's just doing a job, even if we're on other sides. But there are some people that are the reason that lawyers get bad names and jokes and uh society at large. And I can't believe that I mean, it makes me really sad for her that she was treated that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but she had the final say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So changing gears a little bit with the the COVID situation, with everything happening, how has this conversation about appearance changed? Because we've really been talking about how you appear in person. You know, I know things are happening a lot over video conferencing and not in person. So, how has that impacted your practice? And what advice would you maybe give people differently if they're going to be appearing on Zoom?
SPEAKER_02This is my advice if you're appearing on Zoom. I understand that you're in your own home and it can be easier to feel more relaxed, but you are still in a court proceeding. And all of the advice we give you about being that best version of yourself, uh, presenting yourself respectfully, not being distracting in a bad way, it all applies. So, yes, we're all finding new ways to keep going about the practice of law right now. And I think that's going to continue for the foreseeable future. But just because you're sitting in your living room doesn't mean all those rules go out the window.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, maybe don't have your dog barking in the background.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, be mindful of distractions. Absolutely. Uh be mindful still of those appearance things that we talked about, how you're dressed, how you're Presenting yourself because now your first impression isn't even in person. Your first impression is across a video screen. And it's that much harder to get across who you really are when we've got layers of technology between us.
SPEAKER_01And I would also think that you're only able to transmit a certain amount of your body language because camera's only showing a certain part of you. It's a little bit like uh a close-up in a movie. Now all of a sudden you're just framed to your shoulders in your head. So every facial move, every reaction, I'm sure is probably going to be scrutinized. Mike, have you seen anything like that?
SPEAKER_00Well, we've only had a couple of months where we've been doing these things. So uh the stories will change over time, but um, it brings back memories. Back in the 80s, there was a judge named James McChrystal in Erie County, and he did not have live trials. Everything had to be videotaped, and then the video was presented to the jury. This is back in the 80s.
SPEAKER_02Really? Wow.
SPEAKER_00So there was no live testimony at all. The jurors would watch TV for a day or so and then announce their verdict. Now, Judge McChrystal was 35 years ahead of his time. His system would be working perfectly right now with COVID.
SPEAKER_02I'm so genuinely shocked by this.
SPEAKER_00But that was the only instance in my practice where any judge ever did that. And it was strictly limited to Judge McChrystal in Erie County, Ohio. Oh, wow. Wow. Once he retired, um, his bailiff uh took over. This was probably in 1990, and then she didn't adopt the whole videotaping, but his local rules all had endless rules on videotaping and when defile and how to preserve them and everything.
SPEAKER_02Wow, we got to track down all the lawyers around who used to do trials in front of Judge McChrystal and have you guys give us a seminar on how to be effective here because that's I was afraid to do that because we certainly, my firm didn't have the technology to do all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00And uh, you know, we were just starting in the 80s to videotape trial depositions. Uh in the early 80s, you were still getting a, you know, page-by-page transcript. And if that witness wasn't available, the bailiff would read the part of the doctor or the witness in court. So now, having said that, uh, my second to last trial is probably five, six years ago uh in a county west of here. And it involved Katie's father-in-law down the other side. And Jay Harris is an interesting guy who has all kinds of experience and pretty sharp guy at everything, but he had one witness that was unavailable for the case. And so he made the suggestion that he present the witness who is in Europe by Skype. And I thought, there's no way in the world this judge is going to permit him to do this. And lo and behold, the judge brings a monitor into the courtroom, and Jay's got his laptop, and he suddenly produces this guy's image. And right in the middle of the trial, he's presenting a cross-exam or a questioning of this person who's sitting in Belgium or wherever the heck he was in trial. And I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe this has happened. Well, that was five or six years ago.
SPEAKER_02My God, what an innovator.
SPEAKER_00But I mean, normally in the under the rules, you have to provide notice of this, and you know, you'd argue it with the court and everything. And Jay just had his laptop and it went, it didn't really turn the case one way or the other, but we can say it happened.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness. Well, thank you both so much for coming and chatting with me and uh helping me understand so much more about appearance. I didn't get to tell about my dad's wardrobe. Oh, you're right. You know what? Uh I think uh Chuck will Chuck may just have to wait. All right, let's uh let's let's hear the story.
SPEAKER_00So, anyways, my father, he's been gone for about five years now, uh, did a little bit of domestic relations work. He was normally a state planning type of lawyer, but if a divorce client came in, he'd occasionally go over to divorce court. And on this one particular day, he did have an appearance in front of his old law school classmate, June Rose Galvin, who was a sitting domestic judge. What my dad ended up wearing that day was of particular significance. Now, Judge Galvin, I would call her a feminist. I don't think she would deny that, and I'm friends with her today. But my father, Dominic Bruno, uh, was called Dom by his friends. And so he wore a tie with a pattern in it. And the pattern had his initials, D-O-M, and then uh the reverse side of a flasher and numerous.
SPEAKER_02Oh, God.
SPEAKER_00And so when he appeared in front of Judge Galvin, she apparently had fairly good vision on the bench. Uh, and she focused on the tie and nothing that my dad was saying, and basically instructed my father to leave the courtroom and not return unless he was wearing a different tie. So I'll let uh the uh the viewers or the listeners Google DOM as to the significance of that.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I guess it just goes to show that as much as we uh have been talking about clients making bad uh sartorial choices, sometimes attorneys can be just as guilty. We'll uh we'll leave that to the imaginations. Well, thank you so much both for being here. I really appreciate your time, and I appreciate all of the explanations about appearance and how that can make such an incredible difference in a case. Thanks very much for being here.
SPEAKER_02Yep. See you next time.
SPEAKER_01Tune in next week for another episode of the Boik Brief, where we'll be discussing more issues of law and life. Thank you for joining us.