Gracie Fleming: Unearthing the Trends, Season of Sheltering in Place

Sociologist Gracie Fleming talks about the indigenous healing of her cultural heritage.

Resources
Teresa Y. Roberson is a writer, visual artist, producer and Zilis Independent Ambassador (#7161976). Zilis does not endorse the CBD & Poetry podcast nor any material presented as a result. Statements made in CBD & Poetry podcast have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Non-prescription CBD is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease or medical conditions. The CBD & Poetry discussion is not intended as medical advice and should not substitute advice from a healthcare professional.

Music

• Intro Music: "Green Magic" Cabrini Green, Green Magic Album. 
• Outro Music: "Bumpin That Real Shit"Cabrini Green, This Is Ghettostep Album
• cabrinigreenenterprises.com

Unearthing the Trends

The latest, hottest trend

Has been known to indigenous healers for centuries

Now prepackaged home remedies

For general consumption

Traditional knowledge lost

When we embraced the computer

Looking for the “American shaman”

What the hell does that even mean

True understanding lies in unplugging

Grounding into the earth

Into the long line of curanderas

Transcript

Teresa Roberson 

How did you first cross paths with CBD? 

Grace     

Well, CBD is something ancient in my world. I, this is not, I understand that a lot of people have come to it recently do to capitalism and all that. But for me, this is ancient. This is, this is my ancestry. So…

Teresa Roberson 

Well tell us. Tell us about your world. I love that answer.

Grace     

Well, in the indigenous community, there are healers and it happens that my grandmother, my mother's mother, was a healer. She was the person in that barrio where she lived, not just in her barrio, there was you know, people from around the town would come to her for any, pretty much anything. So, she was Obamacare before there was an Obama. So, it's just something that the healers do is to use nature, which is really what I'm most interested in is the extent to which we are interacting with nature, part of nature rather than putting ourselves above nature. So, I mean, the notion of healing with plants, that's been my whole, my whole life really, my mother would say, it's interesting because if we needed to go to a doctor, my parents took us to a doctor. We didn't go to a curandera for our needs as children. But for most minor things that people deal with my mother had some plant that she could use, or even my dad had, you know, my dad was Anglo, he wasn't from the indigenous culture, but his people also had held on to their knowledge of plants and how to use them. And you know, my dad was kind of nerdish. Also though, so he would, he would also check on the actual science of it. Like he understood you know, how, what, quinine has to do with grapefruits. If he was getting sick, he was he was gonna boil a grapefruit rind and drink that. 

Teresa Roberson 

Okay. 

Grace     

What quinine is. So, anyway, so that's that it's just it's just been my life. That's my mother had a variety of treatments as well for…

Teresa Roberson 

So your maternal grandmother was a curandera, which is a healer. 

Grace   

Yes. 

Teresa Roberson 

And did you grow up around her or did you live in a different city?

Grace     

I really didn't grow up watching her do what she does, if that's what you're asking. No, I did not. 

Teresa Roberson 

Okay, where did she live? 

Grace   

I got this from my mother. It was through my mother. Because my mother had grown up with her and knew she knew, "Oh, you have a cough here. Let's go get the purple sage. You know, like she, she knew things, you know, things like aloe. It was really funny to me even now to buy aloe in a package. You know, because because we you know, we know it's just out there, out there in the yard. Anyway, you were about to ask me something else.

Teresa Roberson 

So, it was beyond just home remedies, because that's kind of popular culture. Now home remedies.

Grace     

But that's not my fault…

Teresa Roberson 

Right. No, no, no. 

Grace   

What I'm pointing out is, this is something that's new to a lot of people. But it's not new to me. And it is not new to people of my background. It's not new. It's kinda like, oh, well, there they are capitalizing on something else that we've just been using forever, you know. So, yeah, I just I have, I think a little bit different perspective because of that. 

Teresa Roberson 

Right. Okay, and so for your your parents came from two different backgrounds.

Grace   

Yes.

Teresa Roberson 

Was there a culture clash when it came to medicine? Like I would, I would call it Western medicine versus indigenous medicine for lack of a better…

Grace     

Well, I just, no they didn't they didn't clash about it. They agreed pretty easily. They, they talk. Yeah. And we would hear them talking, talking it through when, when was it necessary to go to a med school doctor and when was it okay to lean on the remedies. You know, and even doctors will tell you, the vast majority of things we go to doctors for would cure themselves, whether we went to a doctor or not. I think most doctors, what I prefer. You know, in fact, my doctors have been really good about that. They don't have overinflated egos in that regard.

Teresa Roberson 

So, what would be the deciding factor of if you went through, would you call it traditional medicine versus med school doctor?

Grace  

Ah, I like to just call it “indigenous.” No, every one of us has indigenous ancestry. Every one of us does. There's, there's nobody on the planet who does not have such ancestry, which means we all come from a lineage where people use nature in their own healing. In fact, one of, you know, one of the things when they were colonizing here was the dependence on the Native Americans to teach the people who were coming in which plants to use for what and what was poisonous and, you know, all of that. That's one of the main things. Was Sacajewea the woman who, who went across the continent on the expedition? I think it was. I think that was her name. 

Teresa Roberson 

I think so too. 

Grace     

That was one of the things she brought. That was one of the things she did was that she could help them by knowing the plants and knowing how to use them. Yeah, she was a healer also. People don't talk about that very much, but she was. So, but it's not just indigenous. We think, “Oh, Indians,” and it's not. We all come from cultures that preceded this modern world that we live in now with our computers and everything. And we've let go of a lot of knowledge in the process of getting to our computer. But there are still people who hold on to those things. And you know, it's been impossible to keep 100% of it, and I'm not advocating that we should. But I do think we lost something huge when we lost our understanding of our relationship to nature.

Teresa Roberson 

I think and you're, you're certainly have a stronger background in this than I do, but in what I know about history, people tend to think, oh, it’s progress, what we're doing in modern times. So, when we think of the well, this is the modern way to communicate, or this is a modern way to heal. We forget that didn't just come out of a vacuum. Always an analog way to do something. And it wasn't exactly when we get the new shiny thing. It's not necessarily better. It's the new shiny thing.

Grace     

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Teresa Roberson 

So, I'm really interested in how for indigenous healers they would access things. Because now, it's like you said, your you can buy prepackaged aloe, for example. People can purchase prepackaged things. They don't have to grow their own. And they don't have to extract it. In some cases, they don't know what's been added in. How it's been manufactured.

Grace   

Yeah, yeah.

Teresa Roberson 

So, for the indigenous way of doing things, there was more of a relationship with the healer and knowing the background of, generally speaking, the environment in which whatever was being offered as advice is given to the person who's seeking it.

Grace     

Yeah, what I'm trying to emphasize is that the, the key relationship was the healer to the natural setting in which they lived, and thrived because they understood, you know, their little, their little piece of the planet. They understood what it produced. And they understood the balance within that their part of the planet. So that they, they knew which plants did what and how much you could use. There's some plants that it's healing if it's this amount, and it's, it's toxic if it's a greater amount.

Teresa Roberson  

Agreed, agreed.

Grace     

So that was it's so it's not just the relationship between people. There's a relationship between human beings and our environment. And that's part of what we lost in becoming modern. And you know, what we think of and referred to as progress does mean, we let go of some things. And that's one of the things that we let go of is that understanding of the nature of this planet that we're living on.

Teresa Roberson 

Now if you, and you don't have to answer this specifically, but the way I pose the question, it won't make sense unless I make it sound specific. If you had a reason to use CBD, would you be comfortable with purchasing something off the shelf? Or would you go to someone who practice indigenous healing?

Grace     

I would go to a healer. 

Teresa Roberson 

100%?

Grace     

 I would not go to Walgreens. I wouldn't stop at the, I wouldn't be writing down the address off the little CBD sign on the corner. No, I would go to a healer.

Teresa Roberson 

Now, it's interesting, you should say that and my next statement or question that I'd like for you to respond to is that a lot of different CBD companies take great pains and pride in saying, "Oh, this was derived from these plants that were in this location, and this is the formulation." And does that have any influence on your choice?

Grace     

No.

Teresa Roberson 

Okay. 

Grace     

But, but in all fairness, I should I should reveal that I'm not I'm not the standard that people that marketers are looking at when they're marketing when they're developing their marketing. I'm, I'm, I ask too many questions, and it makes people uncomfortable. So…

Teresa Roberson 

And that's precisely why I wanted to interview you.

Grace     

Yeah, but that but that also is just, I'm just throwing that out there as kind of a disclaimer is that I'm not I'm not typical. So, you know, I could imagine somebody else saying, "Oh, but it said 'American shaman,'" and I'm like, "Well, what the hell is that?" Like, you know, what, what does that even mean? And they don't know. They won't know. They'll just think they see those two words. And they, that's enough of the marketing to get them hooked in. So, now I would, I would, I would look for people in the indigenous community who are holding on to those practices.

Teresa Roberson 

Mm hmm. Do you still have relatives who are curanderas?

Grace     

Not that I know of.

Teresa Roberson 

But it would be easy enough for you to, through your network of friends and family.

Grace     

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah. I didn't mean to imply that. My family was the only connection.

Teresa Roberson 

Oh, no, I understand that too. Mm hmm.

Grace     

Yeah. And it's possible that in my extended cousins, there are people who are practicing, but it's not something you get on a computer and say, "Hey, I'm doing this." You know, like, I guess some people would, but for the most part, it's a very humble practice and pretty low key. So, it's possible I would ask around in in my, in my family, but not if I was looking for something for myself right now. I would I have other connections that I would go to do that.

Teresa Roberson 

Okay. Now in your work you study different cultures. Is that right?

Grace     

Oh, I wouldn't call it my work.

Teresa Roberson 

Okay.

Grace     

I am a sociologist by training, but in fact I've been a sociologist since I was a young child. It's just, it is the way I operate in the world. I'm very curious about the people around me and understanding what they're doing and how it came to be the way that it is. And I have a capacity for understanding institutions, social institutions, which isn't just corporations and buildings, but the whole notion of family, the notion of religion. Those are social institutions. Those are the building blocks that that are the makeup. That's the foundation of any, any culture and nationality. And I'm very aware of them and interested in them curious about them. So, which is why I mentioned earlier running into the student in the grocery store and that was just it. Like, it was such a short conversation, but we could say things to each other as sociologists, and yeah, so that just felt good to be able to have that kind of analysis discussion at that level, which sounds very intellectual, but at the heart of sociology is a real caring about human beings and human society. So, it's not just a detached analytical discussion. It's very real world.

Teresa Roberson 

Okay. Now, somewhat going from that perspective, if someone came to you, and I would love to be a fly on the wall if they ever approached you, and say, "Hey, I've got this thing called CBD, and this this new thing and you should try it and you would da da da," how would you politely I don't know, inform them really isn't the new shiny thing. How, how would you in a way, put them in their place or at least give them the context of this is around for centuries. As a matter of fact, let me tell you about my culture.

Grace     

Yeah, that's, that's my tendency is to be very direct. I don't, I don't think we're respecting people if we're not being direct. So, if somebody thinks they're going to come up to me and speak that directly to me, I would be just as direct right back with them and just let them know, this is not something new. It's been around forever. And, you know, I come from a lineage of curanderas, who've been using it in different ways forever. So…

Teresa Roberson 

I guess I'm trying to get you to tell us the questions that you would ask such a person.

Grace     

I wouldn't!  I don't find them interesting. Because I don't find them interesting. And, and they're coming, think about it. They're coming at me with an attitude of let me tell you, let me tell you. So, I don't have any indication this is a person who was open. So, if this person is not open, then for me, it's how much of my energy am I going to spend trying to open them up? This is not my crusade. So, I would not feel any inclination to try to enlighten them or educate them. I would, I would just say, no. That's, you know, and then it's in their ballpark. So, if they would go, "Oh, wow." And then we engaged in a conversation, then we could have a conversation. So, I'm not opposed to that. But that's how if you're imagining a conversation, that's how it would have to unfold. Because, you know, as I just said, I don't it's not my crusade to go teach the world because my experiences that the vast majority are really not interested. They're really not open. So, I would be looking for signs of somebody being open. That's a good question, Teresa.

Teresa Roberson 

I know. Well, it kind of helps that you and I have talked before on different things. And I must admit, I'm always in awe of the level of depth that you can go into relating this thing, to another thing. I mean, it was a conversation we were having about religion. I would be asking you questions about that, but it's just, and of course, you have the formal training, but also as a child, you grew up…

Grace     

It's been my whole life. Yeah. Yeah. And I lived in a household where it was okay to do that. Yeah, both my parents were okay that I asked so many questions. I mean, at times I'm sure they were a little nervous because they're like, I don't know how the hell to answer that one. You know, you could kind of see it on their faces, you know, sometimes, but they never told me to quit asking questions.

Teresa Roberson 

Were they also professors or sociologists?

Grace     

No, no, no. They were both high school graduates who just had a deep appreciation of knowledge.

Teresa Roberson 

Were they avid readers or travelers? How did they access knowledge mostly?

Grace     

Um, my dad was constantly reading. Both my parents read the newspaper daily and watched the watched Walter Cronkite every night, you know, so…

Teresa Roberson 

So, did my parents. I'm familiar.

Grace     

Yeah. So that was that was the norm in our household. So, we always knew what was going on, you know, from a worldview all the way down to our tiny little town on the border. Being informed was part of being in the community or that was my assumption. It wasn't til later that I understood that most people weren't given that appreciation of information in and of itself.

Teresa Roberson 

Now when you said the border, you're talking about the Texas-Mexico border?

Grace   

 Yes. 

Teresa Roberson 

Okay. Just wanted to clarify.

Grace   

Yeah. Yeah. 

Teresa Roberson 

You just, sorry. You just made me think because I used to live in Mexico for three years. And so, crossing the border, I would always cross through like with my car. So, you just you just gave me a flashback there on the border, and I was just wondering, wow, I wonder if she lived in Laredo or McAllen because too, and I know there's more border towns in Laredo and McAllen. Those just the two ways I've crossed.

Grace     

I've not lived in Laredo, nor have I lived in McAllen. I didn't, the valley McAllen and Brownsville and all that valley. Actually, Laredo is like the northernmost edge of what they call the valley. It's not really part of the valley, but probably the northern most.

Teresa Roberson 

That was the first of…

Grace     

And it's kind of a nowhere. Where I, where I grew up was more of a semi-arid nowhere. It's west of San Antonio. It's south San Angelo and north of Laredo, and everything west of there was desert. I mean, you're headed towards Big Bend when you leave, don't real where I grew up.

Teresa Roberson 

Okay. Okay.

Grace     

That's a real specific geography.

Teresa Roberson 

Now, do you grow your own plants, whether they're healing plants or just food or decoration, I don't know what we call decorative plants.

Grace     

I have some plants. It, my mother had the talent for the plants, which is part of the curandismo. You know, my ex-husband used to talk about that because he lived in Mexico. He's this white guy from southern Louisiana, but he lived there and he loved the culture, which is why he went to live there when he did, but he said he figured out who the the witches were, which is, you know, the, it's another way of thinking about the curanderas. He wasn't being he was a demeaning or anything like that. That's really how some people refer to them. But he said you always know where they are because their their properties are so lush, no matter what else is around them. There's so many plants just everywhere because it's part of what they do and what they use. So, my mother had that knack for growing plants. So, I do have plants in the house and out in the yard and stuff. And the reason I laughed is because I've been wanting to put in a garden, but by the time the weather cooperated and I had all my stuff together, this COVID-19 thing happened and I'm not supposed to be going to nurseries. Like I think there's some that are open and are finding their ways of selling their goods, but so I don't have vegetables going right now. I've done that in the past, but I don't have any edibles right now. 

Teresa Roberson 

Okay. Okay. Well Gracie, as always, it is a true gift and pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective on this whole CBD phenomenon, which is not shiny and new. That's primarily why I wanted to interview you because I knew you would bring a very, very different perspective to this conversation.

Grace     

Okay, You're quite welcome, Teresa, glad you're doing this and I wish you well. 

Teresa Roberson 

Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai