At the Intersection of Race and Mormon Studies (feat. W. Paul Reeve)

How did early Mormons relate with African Americans and Native Americans in the 19th Century West? This is just one of the many questions tackled by the extensive research of W. Paul Reeve, the Simmons Chair of Mormon Studies at the University of Utah. In today's episode, Dr. Reeve discusses his academic journey from Western U.S. history to Mormon Studies, the University of Utah's programs in its Mormon Studies Initiative, and the expanding field of interdisciplinary research between Mormon Studies and racial, cultural, and sexual studies.

To learn more about Dr. Reeve's own research, watch his October 2023 lecture at the UVA workshop on "Mormonism in Africa and the African Diaspora" on his "A Century of Black Mormons" database. Dr. Reeve is the author of Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness (Oxford 2015). Additionally, you can find a copy of his most recent book, Let's Talk About Race and Priesthood on Amazon or Deseret Books. And don't miss his upcoming book, This Abominable Slavery: Race, Religion, and the Battle Over Human Bondage in Antebellum Utah, releasing later this year.

Transcript

00;00;02 - 00;02;06

Nicholas Shrum

You're listening to Scholars and Saints. The University of Virginia Mormon Studies Podcast. On this podcast, we dive into the academic study of Mormonism, where we engage recent and classic scholarship, interview prominent and up and coming thinkers in the field, and reflect on Mormonism’s relevance to the broader study of religion. Scholars, and Saints is brought to you by support from the Richard Lyman Bushman Endowed Professorship of Mormon Studies in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia. The podcast was founded by UVA Religious Studies PhD candidate Stephen Betts. For the past several years, Stephen spoke with dozens of Mormon Studies scholars and helped connect thousands of listeners to the world of Mormon Studies. Starting this year in 2024, I, Nicholas Shrum, a Ph.D. student in Religious Studies at UVA, will carry on the podcast’s goal of exploring some of the most pressing issues and cutting edge methods in Mormon studies and put them in conversation with scholarship from the discipline of Religious Studies. On today's episode, I speak with Dr. W. Paul Reeve, professor of history and the Simmons Chair of Mormon Studies at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. Dr. Reeve received a BA and an MA in history from Brigham Young University, and completed a doctorate in history at the University of Utah. In today's conversation, we continue the podcast series on Mormon Studies by talking with Dr. Reeve about his academic training and his way into the study of Mormonism. Dr. Reeve discusses his educational background, scholarly projects, important events that shaped how he approached the study of Mormonism, and how the University of Utah's Mormon Studies Initiative engages the field. We also look forward to Dr. Reeves upcoming book with Oxford University Press: This Abominable Slavery, Race, Religion, and the Battle Over Human Bondage in Antebellum Utah, coauthored with LaJean Carruth and Christopher Rich, which will be published later this year. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Paul Reeve.

00;02;06 - 00;04;14

Nicholas Shrum

Welcome to the Scholars and Saints podcast. Today on the podcast, we have Doctor W. Paul Reeve, who is the professor of history and the Simmons Chair of Mormon Studies at the University of Utah. He's also the author of Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness, published in 2015 with Oxford University Press, and was the recipient of a number of awards, including the Mormon History Association's Best Book Award. He's also the project manager and general editor of the Century of Black Mormons digital database. And recently, Doctor Reeve was in Charlottesville at the University of Virginia as part of our Mormonism in Africa and the African Diaspora conference workshop, and gave a wonderful presentation on that database, entitled, “Century of Black Mormons as Quantitative History.” We'll make sure to include a link to that presentation as well in the show notes for this episode of the podcast and encourage listeners to go and see what Doctor Reeve has to say. It's a really, really wonderful presentation, so I encourage you all to go see that. Today, Doctor Reeve agreed to come on and continue this series that the podcast has been doing just diving into Mormon studies as an intellectual avenue, something that people dive into, they find their way into, oftentimes not having full intention to dive into Mormon studies. We're going to talk about, Doctor Reeve's understanding of Mormon studies as a field, how it's changed over time and, especially about his work and his engagement with Mormon studies at the University of Utah, given his position as a chair of Mormon studies there. So, to start off, Doctor Reeve, I'm wondering if you might give us a little bit of background on your schooling, your research interests, your current affiliation, and how you got to that position.

00;04;14 - 00;07;02;

Paul Reeve

Yeah. Well. Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity to visit with you today. So I am trained as a historian and I have two degrees from BYU. My bachelor's and master's degree, and then a PhD from the University of Utah, where I currently teach, and I kind of came to Mormon studies through a bit of a circuitous route, perhaps. I was at BYU when September 7 happened. You know, the sense that Mormon studies was not a welcoming place, that if you engaged in scholarship around the Mormon past, in my case, that your membership in the faith could come into question. And a fellow master's student and I kind of concluded that that was probably something that we would avoid. So now I'm chair of Mormon studies at the University of Utah. So things have changed, obviously, since the 1990s, in terms of, I think, how the institutional church even approaches the study of its own past as well as its relationship with scholars, not just historians, but scholars of all stripes. I mean, we're talking Mormon studies, right? So, it's a variety of disciplines that engage in a study of this religious tradition. So when I arrived at the University of Utah, there was no Mormon studies initiative. My colleague, Doctor Robert Goldberg, a Jewish colleague who grew up in New York City, and he made the case to the university, right, that in New York, you couldn't go to a university without a Jewish studies program. How is it that we are, at the University of Utah, you know, in the backyard of this, global religious tradition. And there is no Mormon Studies Initiative program, whatever, at the University of Utah. And he kind of willed it into existence. And so I am the beneficiary of, kind of, the groundwork that he laid.

00;07;02 - 00;07;08

Nicholas Shrum

What year, did the Mormon Studies Initiative begin at the University of Utah?

00;07;08 - 00;07;29

Paul Reeve

You are asking a historian for a date? That's really risky.  Off the top of my head. I don't know, but I will find out really quickly. 2010.

00;07;29 - 00;08;15

Nicholas Shrum

2010. Okay, so fairly recently, you spoke about, that when you were doing your undergraduate and graduate work, especially at BYU, you spoke about this time where especially Mormon history kind of came under a tough lens with the institutional church, where some high profile academics were disciplined for the work that they were doing in Mormon history. I'm curious if you could reflect on that time. You said that Mormon studies wasn't really a thing yet. What was your sense of the academic study of Mormonism? I mean, was it was it solely kind of tainted by that experience and those kinds of things that were going on?

00;08;15 - 00;13;14

Paul Reeve

Well I mean, like I said, I was a master's student at BYU and it seemed to be kind of, one location of a lot of angst over the academic approach to religious traditions. So,  the chair of my master's committee ended up leaving BYU in the wake of all of this. I was allowed to keep her on my committee. I had to find a new committee chair. I'm just saying the intersection became pretty personal as I watched this play out. So, Elder Boyd, K. Packer gave a talk the timing of which I think is like 1993, perhaps, someone will check me on the date where he calls the three enemies of the church: feminists, intellectuals, and homosexuals. And the chair of my master's committee said, “hey, I'm two of those.” And in the wake of a variety of these kinds of forces at play, left BYU. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of a personal intersection. And then we sort of watched the September 6 take place. I may have said September 7. I'm all over the place today. You know, it's obviously, Sarah Patterson's book that was published last year, by Signature Books articulates that it's much more than those six individuals, right, and sort of traces events before that and events after that. They sort of, solidify this moment because it all comes down in September, and it seemed that there was an intellectual purge taking place. And so I'm just a budding historian.  I had no plans. Like, I did not think I'm going to go on and get a PhD. I sort of stumble my way into even being a history major. I was an accounting major at first, and, didn't enjoy being an accounting major. No offense to the accountants, and just decided I'm going to do something I enjoy. I got a phone call from my oldest brother, who was just being a protective old brother and said, “what are you doing? You're not going to be able to provide for your family, you know, as a historian the economic opportunities are not great. Stick with accounting.” I ignored his advice, but I really had no plan. I just decided I'm going to do something that I enjoy. Right. So, then went on to get a master's degree, and it was during that time period where it just felt uncomfortable to engage in a scholarly approach to this particular religious tradition because of how the institutional church was treating its scholars, its intellectuals, at least in the 1990s. There really  were no jobs in Mormon studies, right? So, besides just the fact that there was this what seemed like a clampdown, you just make decisions that try to position you well for the job market. So I positioned myself as a historian of the US West, hoping that that would provide opportunities to land a job. And obviously, there are a lot of Latter-day Saints in the US West and so you can include them in your study of the broader, Western tradition. So, my dissertation project was published as my first book by University of Illinois Press, Making Space on the Western Frontier, Mormons, Miners, and Southern Paiute. Looking at these three cultural groups bringing very different meaning to the same geographic space, to the same dirt. Right. And so, yeah, I mean, Mormons are present, but I was positioning myself as a scholar of the U.S. West.

00;13;14 - 00;14;46

Nicholas Shrum

That makes sense. I think that this discussion, and I know that for many listeners that are familiar with the faith, as I'm assuming quite a few listeners will be, they might be familiar with some of this history of the academy's interactions with the Institutional Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City. But to listeners, here at the University of Virginia who are associated with the Religious Studies department, they may not have, as much of a sense that this was a tough time. I've heard scholars discuss this time period as essentially leaving an entire generational gap of Mormon historians analyzing Mormon history because of institutional interests and, in some cases, preserving a particular narrative or being wary, for good or bad reasons about the place that the intellectuals and academics have within the faith. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your first book that you just mentioned. How would you place that work that you did in launching you into the trajectory of the rest of your career? Did you continue that kind of method, which is more comparative of these cultural groups, into your teaching and also into your other scholarship? Just curious about how that worked for you.

00;14;46 - 00;17;20

Paul Reeve

Yeah. Well, I mean, to me, that's an approach that I learned in getting my Ph.D. in the history of the US West. Right? So, scholars who have studied this geographical region and, obviously there's this ongoing historiographical debate the field itself is launched by Frederick Jackson Turner with his frontier thesis. Right. So, “where is the West?” I guess this is my current debate, right. But, a lot of the scholarship around “the West,” sees it as a meeting and mixing ground of diverse peoples. And I saw this as the case in what is present-day southeastern Nevada and southwestern Utah. The Utah-Nevada border moves, in the middle of this chronological period that I study, because Congress is not sure if silver discovered in the region is in Nevada or Utah and doesn't believe they can trust Mormons to control this. And so they move the Utah-Nevada border to ensure that it's in Nevada. And the Southern Paiute are involved in all of this as well. Right? So to me, it became this hierarchy of Americanness. How do we situate these three disparate cultural groups. And, so I definitely kind of took that approach to how I view the history of the U.S West. Right? A meeting and mixing grounds of diverse peoples– they're bumping into each other sometimes with really sharp elbows, sometimes with guns. Right. So that kind of informed my approach to when I turn my lens more directly to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or other Mormon religious traditions, I'm interested in how they interact with others and how others looking at Mormons and perceive them. Right. So, yeah, I think my approach to the field of Mormon studies is definitely grounded in the things that I learned being trained as a historian of the US West.

00;17;20 - 00;18;21

Nicholas Shrum

Absolutely.  I haven't read your first book. I'm really interested now. I have read Religion of a Different Color. And I wonder if we can actually segue briefly to that because I think it really speaks to current conversations and even debates at times about what even Mormon studies is. And the reason I'm really interested in this question about your, academic formation and thinking about methodology and being comparative and thinking about perceptions of groups. I've loved the phrase this hierarchy of Americanness. Can you speak briefly about Religion of a Different Color and, just a brief understanding of what that book is. But then I think also, how you would situate that in the broader historiography of both the American West, American history in general, and then also just Mormon studies.

00;18;21 - 00;23;11

Paul Reeve

Yeah, sure. So, in Religion of a Different Color  I make the claim in the introduction, that in understanding the Mormon racial story, you understand the American racial story. And I didn't think that before I started this study, but, actually became convinced of that as a result of examining the evidence. So I try to situate 19th-century converts to the LDS faith within a racial understanding, not merely a religious understanding that was operating in the 19th century. And you have to understand race as very fluid and illogical for any of this to make sense. But, ostensibly, white Mormons are denigrated as not white enough in the 19th century. And they attempt to claim whiteness for themselves. The most significant way you do so is in distance from Blackness. I think it helps to contextualize the Latter-day Saint racial priesthood and temple restrictions. And the arc of the argument just goes from not white enough in the 19th century to too white by the 21st century, ending in Mitt Romney's run for the presidency with Lee Siegel, a social commentator who writes an opinion piece in the New York Times calling Romney the whitest white man to run for office in American history. His Mormonism made him too white, in other words, by the 21st century. The LDS church's response to not white enough in the 19th century is to attempt to claim whiteness for themselves and distance itself from Blackness. And by the 21st century, an effort at reclaiming the lost universalism that was articulated in the first couple of decades of the faith. So, articulating a racially diverse and international identity for themselves with the “I'm a Mormon” media campaign in the 21st century. That's sort of the argument in a nutshell. I think it operates in the historiography of the American West. There are two chapters, “Red, White and Mormon,” where I'm paying attention to how outsiders perceived Latter-day Saints and then how that helps to shape their view of themselves on the inside. And I see race as this negotiation between what is ascribed from the outside and what is aspired to from within. And I think, the Latter-day Saints sort of help us to see that. So in the outsider's imagination, Latter-day Saints are frequently, intermarrying with or have hordes of Native Americans waiting in the wings at their behest to join them to kill true white Americans. Right. So, when they are expelled from the nation, they go west and become native in the minds of outsiders, right? They sort of descend down the American racial ladder. So you see race as a hierarchy in the 19th century and I tried to situate Latter-day Saints in that hierarchy. So it fits a U.S West narrative. But, for Mormon studies, I'm also attempting to address significant questions that play out theologically. How are Native Americans and African Americans or people of Black African descent understood theologically by Latter-day Saints and the answer is they're racialized. They're racialized as not at the same level as white Anglo-Saxons. Right. So it's a way that white Latter-day Saint leaders are claiming whiteness for themselves. They're distancing themselves from other ethnic groups. And in exploring this racial story, there's also a chapter on what I describe as “Oriental, White, and Mormon,” and “Oriental,” this deliberate 19th century term, right. There's a way of then sort of explaining the variety of people who are attempting to find space in this American experiment in republican government, find space for themselves. And Latter-day Saints are among those but conflated with a variety of other undesirable groups in the process.

00;23;11 - 00;24;19

Nicholas Shrum

It really is an insightful, remarkable book.  I'm currently taking a readings course here at UVA where we're reading some classics of American religious history and some of the more recent interventions in religious studies such as Kathryn Gin Lum’s, Heathen: Race and Religion in American History, and a number of others, such as Sylvester Johnson's African American Religions. And it is just it's so interesting, having read Religion of a Different Color, to see these moments where Mormons truly sat, at a really interesting position as the United States was developing and negotiating and changing its understandings of race as it intersects with religion, civilizational theory, Orientalism, and connections to other religions that were that were understood as in need of being civilized. It's truly a great book, published in 2015. So I encourage listeners  to check that out.

00;24;19 - 00;24;24

Paul Reeve

Thank you. That's nice of you, Nicholas, I appreciate that.

00;24;24 - 00;24;40

Nicholas Shrum

Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the University of Utah's Mormon Studies Initiative. Can you briefly talk to us about it? We talked about its establishment a number of years ago. But maybe some of the things that it offers.

00;24;40 - 00;29;34

Paul Reeve

Yeah. So, the Mormon Studies Initiative, like I said, was founded by my colleague, Robert Goldberg, who has since retired, and maybe a little bit distinct from other Mormon studies programs in the nation. The Mormon Studies Initiative at the University of Utah, kind of focuses on programing as well as students more than tying up the funding into a chair. We have a permanently endowed pre-doc fellowship. So, every year we have students who apply for this fellowship from across the nation, and even internationally, those who are doing Mormon studies. And that means a variety of disciplines as well. They get an office at the University of Utah. They are past a comprehensive exam stage and are working on their dissertation,  it provides them an office at the Tanner Humanities Center at the University of Utah, as well as a stipend. And really, what's attractive is access to the best archives in Mormon studies. So obviously they can do research at the LDS Church History Archive, the Family History Library, the Marriott Library at the University of Utah, which has a really strong collection in Mormonism. BYU, Utah State right there, just centrally located to all of these great  archives, right, that house collections in Mormon studies. So that's a key component of the Mormon Studies Initiative. We also have funded a variety of courses, undergraduate courses in Mormon studies that count as religious studies credit at the University of Utah. I teach a course called Mormonism in the American Experience that counts as history credit and religious studies credit. Some of my colleagues, so Doctor Stone in writing and rhetoric, teaches a course on Mormonism and Rhetoric or Rhetoric of Mormonism. Doctor Chris Lewis and Margaret Toscano have taught a course on Mormon literature in the World Languages and Cultures department. We've also funded courses on the sociology of Mormonism in the sociology department. Gender and Mormonism through gender studies, Book of Mormon as literature. Those are just examples of a variety of courses that we've funded. We have also then held a few conferences, open to the public. Right. So two Black, White and Mormon conferences where we engaged with the place of people of Black African ancestry in the LDS tradition, one on LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their space within their faith. Those are kind of examples of the Mormon Studies Initiative. We also then, or at least my own scholarship, we house under the Mormon Studies Initiative rubric, The Century of Black Mormons database that you mentioned earlier. We also launched this year “This Abominable Slavery” database that makes publicly available all the speeches from the 1852 territorial legislative session that were captured in Pitman shorthand in 1852, but not transcribed into longhand and not published in the Journal of Discourses. Makes publicly available all of these debates around the Black servant code that was passed by the legislative body that year, as well as the Native American indenture bill. Those are now publicly available, thisabominableslavery.org, which in conjunction with my two coauthors, LaJean Purcell Carruth and Christopher Rich, those are the primary sources that we use to write a book that will be coming out with Oxford in October, under the same title, “This Abominable Slavery,”: Race, Religion, and the Battle over Human Bondage in Antebellum Utah. So those are examples of what's taking place at the University of Utah under the Mormon Studies umbrella.

00;29;34 - 00;30;05

Nicholas Shrum

It sounds like wonderful opportunities for scholars outside of the university, but also for students at the University of Utah and the faculty. I'm curious if you might share some of, so with the Tanner fellowship, what kind of scholarship has come out of that program  that you've seen as advancing the field of Mormon studies and  making it more complex?

00;30;05 - 00;32;49

Paul Reeve

Yeah, sure. So our founding fellow was Dr. Kate Holbrook. She was getting her PhD at Boston at the time. And she went on to become in her employment, a scholar of women and the Latter-day Saint tradition and was hired by the LDS Church History Department. So that's one example. Rosemary Avance from the University of Pennsylvania did a research project titled “Voices and Silences on the Construction of Mormon Identities.” She came at it from a media lens. Just a few examples. Gavin Feller, “Enamored but Ambivalent: Mormonism in 20th century New Media.” Let's see, we had David Hurlbut, “Understanding the Rise of Mormonism and the Hinterlands of Nigeria, 1960 to 2005.” He looked at religious traditions that fall under the Mormon rubric, who have engaged in mission outreach in Africa. So that includes Community of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Bickertonites for example. So, that's kind of a sampling. Let's see, we had Sasha Coles from the University of California, Santa Barbara. Her project was titled “Homespun Respectability: Silk Worlds, Women's Work, and  the Making of Mormon Identity.” We had Janan Graham-Russell, from Harvard and her project, “Churched Bodies” Embodied Practice and the Maintenance of Mormon Identity among Haitian Latter-day Saints in the United States.” So, a variety of scholars using a variety of disciplines to try to understand the Latter-day Saint tradition or Mormon traditions more broadly construed. So any religious tradition that traces its roots to Joseph Smith or accepts the Book of Mormon, those are the kind of projects that we have helped to facilitate through this fellowship that we house here at the University of Utah. Just really fantastic young scholars. I mean, it's really a thrill to give them a place to help complete their dissertations and have access to the sources they need.

00;32;49 - 00;33;49

Nicholas Shrum

Yeah. When I hear about those projects, I mean, that is the perfect encapsulation of what I think Mormon Studies is becoming. It shows exactly how interdisciplinary the projects are, the various disciplines that these scholars come from, from various universities, asking lots of different questions as it pertains to, to race, and sex, and politics. Just a wonderful opportunity there. Before we move on to, the question of and a very short discussion about how one might define Mormon studies, which is part of this brief series we're doing. I'd love for you to speak a little bit more about the Century of Black Mormons database. Again, as I mentioned at the beginning, there is a wonderful lecture by you that was given here in Charlottesville back in October of 2023, but just for the listeners, today, can you speak briefly about that?

00;33;49 - 00;36;20

Paul Reeve

Sure, and so the databases, at its basic level, are designed to simply, identify and give life to, remember, and honor, anyone of Black African ancestry baptized into the faith between 1830 and 1930. So the first 100 years of Latter-day Saint tradition. These are people who have largely been erased from collective Latter-day Saint memory. And so a part of it is a recovery project. But, as an academic project, I also see it as an aspect of social history. So, a lot of the scholarship that has dealt with the Latter-day Saint tradition and race has come at questions, especially around, the place for people of Black African ancestry in the faith from the perspective of the white male leaders: “Where did the racial restrictions come from that animated the faith for 130 years?” “What decisions were made?” “What theological arguments justified it?” “When did they come up with those decisions?” You know, it's largely been even Religion of a Different Color, right? It's largely been from the perspective of the white male leaders.  Century of Black Mormons is a project designed to try to understand what it meant to be Black and a Latter-day Saint from the perspective of Black Latter-day Saints in the pews. So it really, I think, allows us as scholars to answer new questions because the source base is different. and it helps us to try to understand what lived religion looked like for those who were of Black African ancestry and embraced this faith. You know, frustratingly, they left few records behind so their voices aren't always present. But, we've found some remarkable documents. Right. That do include Black Latter-day Saint voices. So it allows us to answer, I think, new questions that we never would have arrived at had we continued to just study the white male leadership perspective on the racial past of the Latter-day Saint tradition.

00;36;20 - 00;37;08

Nicholas Shrum

It's a very significant project. It's so important. And  as you mentioned, this lived religion perspective that often is missed. In one of our previous episodes, guest Patrick Mason spoke about just how much of a treasure trove of Mormon history is because of how many records there are. This is an interesting case of a bit of the opposite, but still, those were experiences that should and can be recovered thanks to the work that's being done with the database. So thank you for that work. I'm really excited to see what kind of projects come out of that and besides it being just a service to the Black Mormon community as well.

00;37;08 - 00;37;09

Paul Reeve

Yeah, thank you.

00;37;09 - 00;37;56

Nicholas Shrum

Yeah. Of course, of course. It's great. As we wrap up today's episode, I am interested in the question of “what is Mormon studies?” We've gotten a variety of answers, and depending on who you ask, sometimes it's a field, sometimes it's an intellectual trajectory aimed towards Mormonism. Sometimes people think it's not really a thing, it's not a discipline, in a traditional sense. I'm curious about your thoughts on Mormon studies, and what it is, and then maybe one question to get at it is “how one does Mormon studies, how one participates in it.”

00;37;56 - 00;42;01

Paul Reeve

Yeah. Well, yeah, it's probably pretty difficult to define. Right. But I perceive of it as an interdisciplinary approach to this particular religious tradition or traditions. You know, I want to be specific about that: religious traditions, all religions that trace their roots to Joseph Smith or accept the Book of Mormon. Right. And, I see Mormon studies as interdisciplinary approaches to that. So I think our list of scholars that we went through in terms of our, Mormon Studies Graduate Fellowship at the University of Utah, gives us an indication of what we're talking about. I think the academic study of Mormonism has long been grounded in history as a discipline. But I see Mormon studies moving beyond historical approaches to this religious tradition and including a variety of other disciplinary approaches. And I think all of that's fantastic. Right? It helps us to answer new questions or think about Mormonism in different ways as a result of these interdisciplinary approaches. So, is it a thing in terms of academia? There are four Mormon studies chairs at universities across the nation. But what does that mean? And what does that look like? It probably varies a little bit across those four different institutions. And are there jobs available, right, is the other question. And I think, like I said for my own kind of experience, students have to define themselves as broadly as possible. I think Mormonism can help us to understand, for example, what it meant to be an American in the 19th century. But, Mormon Studies is moving in global directions, right? So there are a variety of ways that, I think, this religious tradition can open up and answer questions about the human condition across the globe. We all use case studies, right? And Mormonism as a case study helps us to understand the American racial landscape in the 19th century. Right. So what can this particular tradition teach us about bigger issues going on in other countries? Using Mormonism as a case study to open up a variety of other lenses. So, that's how I try to approach the study of Mormonism and how I encourage students to think about their own projects, regardless if it's coming from a different discipline. What can it teach us about bigger questions that might be  animating your discipline. And I think Mormonism can provide some interesting lenses into those kinds of questions. So I think the field is wide open. It's encouraging to me. The variety of young scholars who are engaging yourself included, Nicholas, in the students that I met at the conference  at UVA, I think all kinds of fantastic projects and approaches to the field. So that's my effort at trying to articulate what it is. You know, maybe it's a little bit slippery, but that's okay. I think  that's actually a benefit. You know, people bringing their disciplinary approaches to trying to understand the various traditions that trace their roots to Joseph Smith and accept the Book of Mormon.

00;42;01 - 00;43;26

Nicholas Shrum

I agree, I really appreciate and like your answer there. You know, as you said, Mormon studies or at least the academic study of Mormonism has traditionally been very history based. And even in in the field of religious studies, we might call it more denominational, history-based, looking at the institution, sometimes how doctrines or beliefs have developed. But Mormon studies, I think as an intellectual exercise has so much to offer people outside of the tradition, whatever branch or institution, that might represent to my colleagues in the religious studies department here at UVA. I've had wonderful conversations about how Mormonism can help illuminate their own traditions that they study, especially in an American context. But as you mentioned, as well, in an increasingly globalizing faith, where most of the faith's membership resides outside of the United States and Canada. So, yeah, I like that it's a little bit slippery myself, as well. Before we end, I'm curious about what kind of projects you're working on currently or that you have on the docket.

00;43;26 - 00;45;40

Paul Reeve

Yeah. So, just trying to get this This Abominable Slavery, the manuscript, out into the wild. So I've been working on that with LaJean and Chris and we're told by Oxford it should be out in the fall. So encouraged by that. Saw a first draft of the book cover. So, excited when they have a finalized version to be able to share that. And then, continuing with the Century of Black Mormons project, we have over 130 names currently publicly available and over 200 more under research. So we'll be between 300 and 400 by the time we're done. And that's just really kind of, laborious research, so it takes a lot of time. But committed to seeing that through to the end. I'm currently serving as department chair and so that’s sort of capacity for me right now. I do have thoughts for future projects, but, I want to finish the Century of Black Mormons Project, and I have, some articles under way in which I try to interpret between the biographies  what we're learning. And I did some of that in my presentation at UVA, tried to say, hey at its base level, it's a collection of biographies, right. But here are things that we're learning. What are emerging from the margins of these biographies, what new lessons are we learning? What is it teaching us about those of Black African ancestry who converted to the faith? And what can we say about, their position in the faith as a result of understanding the biographies collectively? So several kind of, article-related projects associated with the Century of Black Mormons that are on the docket as well.

00;45;40 - 00;46;15

Nicholas Shrum

Excellent. Well, you're doing a lot. And again, we were just so grateful that you're able to come out recently just to share some of those insights. And, as mentioned, will include in the show notes for this episode, links to Century of Black Mormons, links to your your various books, to your faculty profile at the University of Utah, and also will encourage listeners to check out this upcoming book with Oxford University Press in the fall. And hopefully, we can have you back on the podcast to talk about that within the next little bit. So thank you.

00;46;15 - 00;46;40

Paul Reeve

Yeah, that'd be fun. Yeah. And include thisabominableslavery.org. So, that's currently publicly available, also housed at the Marriott Library at the University of Utah. So, just a fantastic resource of primary source materials related to Indigenous and African American enslavement in 19th century Utah Territory.

00;46;40 - 00;46;55

Nicholas Shrum

Wonderful. I'll be sure to check that out myself and include that  in the notes. Well, Doctor Reeve, thank you so much for joining Scholars and Saints and we look forward to having you back again sometime. Are there any parting words that you would like to include?

00;46;55 - 00;47;04

Paul Reeve

No Thanks for the opportunity. It has been a pleasure to talk to you and share what's going on at the University of Utah. So thanks for giving me the chance.

00;47;04 - 00;47;06

Nicholas Shrum

Of course.

00;47;06; - 00;47;24

Nicholas Shrum

I hope you enjoyed this episode of Scholars and Saints. Please be sure to come back to hear more conversations soon. A special thank you to Harrison Stewart for production-editing, and to Ben Howington for providing music for this episode. To hear more, visit mormonguitar.com. Thank you for listening.