Brush Creek Film Review
Brush Creek Film Review
KC Filmmaking with Alex Paxton
Buddy is joined by Alex Paxton to discuss the book and movie Order 86. View the complete show notes >
Welcome back to Brush Creek Film Review. I'm your host Buddy Hanson, and I'm joined today by a special guest.
Alex Paxton:Alex Paxton, how you doing folks?
Buddy:In this episode, we're going to talk about spy films and a film that was made right here in Kansas City. Good-bye 2021, and hello, 2022. Today's show we're going to focus on spy films. And today we're joined by a special guest, Alex Paxton. Alex, you want to go ahead and introduce yourself.
Alex Paxton:Yeah, my name is Alex Paxton. I'm a local filmmaker to Kansas City and we've been working on this for quite a while now, but it's finally done and we're ready to release it to the world.
Buddy:Cool. I got a copy of Order 86 and I gobbled it up in two nights. I read it really fast, which is a good thing. It wasn't for me like a forest read. I didn't have to push myself through it, you know?
Alex Paxton:That's good.
Buddy:Yeah, it was a really enjoyable read. Maybe we could start with the written Order 86. And you could talk about how this started, how you got involved, and then maybe move from there into like the film itself.
Alex Paxton:Sure. Basically, I started the book just as, kind of a novelization, cause I thought, Hey, wouldn't it be fun to just have another way to promote the film. And yeah, it kind of took on a life of its own as well. It actually gave me a chance to go back to one of our earlier drafts. Just so it wouldn't be the, oh yeah, here's the movie script in novel form. Some scenes were cut out of the film, other scenes we've since added. It's completely, well, not completely, but it's a pretty different experience between reading the book and watching the movie. So hopefully people will enjoy it on that respect. It also gave me a chance to go back and just different scenes that I always thought, Hey, wouldn't it be cool if when we were having our production meetings, it's like, well, yeah, that would be kind of cool, but we don't have time, or we don't have money for that, or you know, we can't get that many extras or, you know whatever the case may be. All those little fun production hassles that you run into when making a film, but on the written page, I mean, it's just me and the paper, so, you know?
Buddy:So you actually did the film and then you turned the script into the book. Is that how it worked?
Alex Paxton:Yes. Yes.
Buddy:Okay.
Alex Paxton:Yeah, like I said, it was basically just going to be a way to promote the film. You know, much like any other novelization turns out that people actually liked the book. So I was like, all right. So.
Buddy:Yeah, it was a really fun read and when we first talked and we're just kind of breaking the ice, but it was exciting to hear that, we had some parallel interests in common with books in the spy genre.
Alex Paxton:Yeah.
Buddy:I don't know how you feel about humor and action film or humor in the spy genre, but to me, it's even in like a Bond film, there's a lot of humor.
Alex Paxton:Oh yeah.
Buddy:In preparation for this podcast I have been watching and reading all kinds of spy stuff. And when I was getting my notes together for this conversation, I was like, gosh, I'm going to need, Alex's help to keep some of these films straight. Everything is just crammed in there right now. And I have to keep the actors and actresses separate and keep track of everything. Cause it's a big genre.
Alex Paxton:Oh, I know.
Buddy:The combination of action and humor is my all time favorite. I think it's the most entertaining, the most fun.
Alex Paxton:Oh yeah.
Buddy:I picked that up out of Order 86 and just love some of the dialogue between characters and some of the sequence of events. So, first of all, where can we find the film?
Alex Paxton:The film is currently available for sailor rents on Vimeo, or if you are interested in a physical DVD copy, if you go to order86movie.com find links for the movie, the DVD, the book, everything Order 86 is right there.
Buddy:And just to remind our listeners, we will definitely have a document attached with notes for all of the material that we're talking about in the podcast. So any references, like the website that Alex gave just now will be listed in the notes. And I highly encourage our listeners to check out the notes because sometimes there'll be links to videos on YouTube, trailers on YouTube, little articles, all the names of the directors in the films. All the reference material is in those notes and there's some really good stuff in the notes sections. So thanks Alex for the website. So I don't want you to give away any major teasers or anything, but can you give us kind of a run-through or a summary of Order 86 and what it's about?
Alex Paxton:Okay. Basically there is a computer virus that is, you know, it's, it's been condensed to a microchip and basically one man who inadvertently created it is now trying to stop it. So as the evil corporation that he created it for was trying to come after him. He ends up passing it off to this civilian waitress and she has no idea that she has it. So she ends up with most of the global intelligence services chasing after her, and she has no idea why. So, you know, it's just her quest to try and stay alive. It is kind of a twisty turny story.
Buddy:Yeah, it definitely has some good twists and I actually really liked the way it ended too.
Alex Paxton:Oh, good.
Buddy:Endings, I think are important.
Alex Paxton:Oh yeah, we went back and forth on that ending many times. In fact, not to give too much away, but it's like the ending in the book is not the ending of the movie. So. Yeah, that was another thing that gave me a chance. I was like, well, we never got to use this ending. What if I tweak it a little bit and rework it? Okay. So
Buddy:Yeah, the other thing is I have not seen the film version and I was back and forth with whether or not I wanted to check that out before the conversation. I ended up deciding to wait till after the conversation to check it out. So I'm definitely looking forward to it is on my to-do list here after the recording. So I have the story in my head just through the book and I just finished that two nights ago. So it is still fresh in my head.
Alex Paxton:Okay.
Buddy:What can you tell us about the film production side of things? How does that work? How long does it take anything you want to share with us about just the film production itself? Like what your experience was with it and what are some of the hurdles and challenges. You know, maybe you could just pull a couple of highlights or notes that people might be interested in as far as the production goes.
Alex Paxton:Yeah, well, took us probably, I want to say, you know, anywhere from like nine months to a year, I think we spent writing the script. Our original concept was like, everybody it's like, Hey, let's make a movie. Okay. What now? Well, okay. Everybody does a horror film because they're cheap and easy or a romantic comedy cause again, they're cheap, easy. And our particular strength happened to be stunt work. We're like, we should probably do something like an action film, but we didn't have the budget for like, car chases or falling off multi-story buildings or anything, that crazy. So we're like, okay, what would be something that would be kind of cool? It's like, Ooh, a spy genre. So we're like, okay, let's, let's come up with a spy story. And so I'd write a little bit and then I'd pass it off to, my partner, Richard Buswell and then he would kind of run with it and give it back to me and I'd just be like, well, yeah, okay, I like this, not too crazy about this. What if we rework that? Okay. And then a lot of back and forth with that, we ended up bringing in a third guy just for a fresh set of eyes, Jonathan Love, and he contributed a few ideas and then we're like, oh yeah, okay. No, I get it. Okay. Then once we had the script and of course, you've got to cast it and you got to get the crew together and you got to find your locations and it took longer than we wanted it to, but looking back on it, it was kind of a blessing just because. We had originally we're trying to race the Fall cause we're like, oh, okay. You know, it's like, wait, we could, we could do it here. You know, while it's still relatively warm outside. Okay. And I was like, well, but we don't have this, this or this. Okay. Well, we might be able to get this we might find that, you know, it was like a lot of the up in the air stuff. You're just going, oh, we probably should not be this up in the air on this many things going into it because it'd be too easy for us to get, you know, the leaves will change color and there goes continuity. So we're like, okay. So we gave it through the winter. We found a location scout, she started finding all these really amazing locations and. And then springtime came around. We're like, okay, it's a little warmer outside, everything's changing colors, things growing, I should say. And so everything was like a consistent shade of green or blue or whatever we needed it to be. And then, yeah, we were actually able to film it. Filming went pretty quick, I think three weeks with a fourth week, you know, do some extra pickups and things like that. So that went pretty quick. I was, I was impressed with that.
Buddy:So you shot the whole film in three weeks?
Alex Paxton:Pretty much. Yeah.
Buddy:Wow.
Alex Paxton:Yeah. I mean, it was just, it was a lot of it might've been like, oh no, scratch that wasn't three weeks, six weeks. Cause yeah, we were doing a lot of it on the weekends so that we could meet people's schedules because we weren't really paying them too much. We basically have backend deals with most of our cast members. Like when the movie starts to make money, that's the only pay you.
Buddy:This is an independent film, right?
Alex Paxton:Oh, most definitely. Yes. It's about as independent as you can.
Buddy:Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's cool. Some of the most creative work happens in indie film because of the challenges, you know?
Alex Paxton:Oh, absolutely.
Buddy:Yeah.
Alex Paxton:Yeah. So once we finally got the whole thing filmed, then it came down to, okay, do we get somebody to edit it? If so, how much are they going to charge us? Okay. Well, we might not have money for that. So we had to learn how to edit and it was basically one big learning curve after another, it's like as soon as you realize, like, okay, well, what do we need to do next to make this happen? Oh, okay, cool. That's what needs to happen next?
Buddy:Right.
Alex Paxton:Now we need to learn how to do that. So this ever ongoing struggle, you know, lots of training manuals, lots of YouTube videos. So yeah. Now it's just been a question of, okay, what's what's next? Oh, we, we get to release it. Cool. How do we go about that? And you know, it's like releasing a film during COVID I'm just going, this is just awesome, we get this movie done just in time for theaters to shut down. Okay, so it's just been another hurdle for us to overcome.
Buddy:So let's back up a little bit, so when did the project start and when did you finish the film? Cause you mentioned, it sounds like it was finished just before COVID happened.
Alex Paxton:Well, we finished editing and all of the technical, getting everything tweaked and just, you know, the sound right, and the picture right, and everything else shortly before COVID hit, we actually filmed this, I want to say, about four years ago.
Buddy:Oh, wow, okay.
Alex Paxton:And yeah, it's, like I said, it's, it's been an uphill struggle, but we've been there.
Buddy:Yeah. Well, just to give our listeners some perspective here, with the timeline for film production, it's not unusual for films to take years to make. And I've heard, like, for example, we did an episode about film called Sneakers.
Alex Paxton:Was this the one with Robert Redford?
Buddy:Yeah. And I was watching the behind the scenes for Sneakers and the interviews with the production crew, talking about the story and how it took them. I think it took about a decade at least.
Alex Paxton:Oh yeah.
Buddy:I just thought of that because you're talking about a very collaborative process and the process of bouncing things around like, okay, I have some ideas for this part of the story. Now you, you run with it, you come up with something and there's a back and forth. Which is very different than adapting a story exclusively from like the mind of Stephen King, for example, or a single book, or something like that. Film is incredibly collaborative. It's incredibly time consuming, incredibly expensive, you know, it's all these things. And when you dive into it to make an indie feel, there's obviously all sorts of different challenges and hurdles, but just to let our listeners know that the time that goes into making films, especially independent films, it's definitely like it's passion project kind of stuff. You're not going to get involved in this type of stuff, unless you're really passionate about filmmaking, storytelling. And so just so folks know, I would imagine some of our listeners might be surprised to hear that it took four years, you know?
Alex Paxton:Yeah. I mean, that's what, this is, what happens when you don't have studio backing.
Buddy:Right, yeah, but even with studios, there was some big name films out there that, Inception by a Christopher Nolan that film the story for that he worked off and on, on that for, I think at least a decade.
Alex Paxton:Wow.
Buddy:It was like this idea he kicked around and he kept kind of chipping away at it over the years. And it kind of bloomed into this golden nugget of an idea that, he wanted to wait until he had some more experience under his belt. He had the details of the story really kind of ironed out and you've seen Inception, right?
Alex Paxton:I really enjoyed it.
Buddy:Yeah. I mean, that's a complicated, very cerebral plot. So he really took some time to like iron that out and let it develop and mature kind of like wine, let it sit in age properly. So it took you four years to now when you say four years to make the film, are we talking everything like four years to write, cast, shoot, edit, everything?
Alex Paxton:It took us. Yeah. Like four years from the time we said, Hey, let's make a movie to the time. We're like, all right, let's put it out there. So, yeah.
Buddy:Okay. So you started around what? 2017 sometime around there?
Alex Paxton:Well, yeah, because it would've been 2016.
Buddy:2016. Okay. You had mentioned stunts earlier. So before this, you had done stunt work?
Alex Paxton:Yes. In fact, that's strangely how Richard Buswell and myself actually met. He was working as a, a stunt choreographer on another movie that I was recording sound for, and, we just happened to strike up a conversation. And then maybe a year or so later he was putting together this fringe show. That was basically just a lot of stunt work, stage combat things of that nature. And happened to call me up and was like, Hey, you know, it's like, you, you want to be a part of this. I'm like, absolutely, you know, this sounds like fun. Let's go do it. It just kind of evolved from there.
Buddy:Sweet. So this is your first full film production project, right?
Alex Paxton:Yes, yes.
Buddy:Yeah. Okay.
Alex Paxton:We'd done a handful of shorts previous to this, and we were just like, alright let's up the ante. If we're going to be serious about this, cause we do have our own film company, Merry BanD Productions,, but we're like, yeah, we're going to be serious about this. You know, let's, let's stop, goofing off and go make a feature. All right, let's go write a film. So.
Buddy:Nice. So Order 86 is out there. Has it been officially screened anywhere locally here in Kansas City?
Alex Paxton:We were part of the Los Angeles International Film Festival last summer. You know, again, it's like with COVID and everything online. It's like I have no idea how the movie did, we didn't win an award. So yeah, we've been in that festival. The there've been two or three other festivals that we've been entered into digitally that we keep getting all these replies from. And we've got a couple of certificates of merit. So, you know, it's, it's, it's racked up a few accolades here and there. We did finally have our cast and crew screening. So we were excited about that one, you know, the theaters are shut down, so it's like, okay. So we had a screening at the Screenland Armour, and then. We had another one shortly after that online, just to give everybody a chance to see the film, because wanted to see what they did. That's like, Hey, this is the work you people put in. So, check it out, we want to share this with you.
Buddy:Yeah. Screenland Armour is an awesome theater. I love that place.
Alex Paxton:Oh yeah.
Buddy:Cool. So it's out there. And are you still submitting it to festivals? Because I I've talked a little bit and some other episodes. We had a guest from a film called California Typewriter. That was kind of telling us about the festival circuit, which is not something I really know a whole lot about. I mean, obviously we're all kind of familiar with Khan and Sundance.
Alex Paxton:Yeah, South By Southwest and all those.
Buddy:But maybe you could elaborate a little bit on that because I think that's a really interesting aspect of filmmaking is, okay, you go through all this work to write the film, cast it, make it, edit it, and then release it. The actual marketing and getting it out there is a whole nother aspect of the process.
Alex Paxton:Oh yeah.
Buddy:And the festival circuit is a very important part of that. So can you maybe just tell us a little bit about that? What is it that you guys, as filmmakers we're looking at and, or what's the process? I have no idea what the process is. Do you like burn it to a DVD, or do you post it online and send them a link, or is it like applying for a job? Like I have no idea. What, how does that work?
Alex Paxton:It's pretty much all the above. It just depends because each festival has their own standard. A lot of them now with the virtual festival, either just download it somewhere that they can look at it, or yeah, you send out a DVD. If it's theatrical then you need like a digital cinema package or a DCP. So they can basically load it into a projector and play it on the big screen. But every festival is a little bit different. You basically just go out and look up film festivals and find out when are they, where are they, when are your submission dates, how much is your submission fee, can I afford the submission fee? It's just, there's so many things cause I mean, you could spend your entire budget just entering festivals. Kind of the ironic thing that again, it's like, thank you COVID we've basically got into the festival circuit so that we could possibly attract a distributor who would be interested in distributing our film into theaters. It's like, oh, everything's virtual. Alright, well, I have no idea if a distributors here or not. Okay. We've basically just gone to theater owners. If you want to play a movie, we got a movie. All right, well, we'll play the movie. So it's like, oh man, you want to talk about a grassroots project?
Buddy:No, I think that's great. It's at the grassroots where the magic happens in my opinion.
Alex Paxton:Let's hope.
Buddy:Okay, so Order 86, you can check it out on Vimeo. You said, right?
Alex Paxton:Yes, yep.
Buddy:Vimeo, you guys have a dedicated website...
Alex Paxton:Uh-huh, we do.
Buddy:...and I've read this story. I think it's super rad. It's a spy story, there's some great characters. By the way, the cab driver is my favorite character by far.
Alex Paxton:Yeah. The, the cab drivers, a lot of people's favorite, Bess was another popular.
Buddy:I'm really anxious to see how this translates to the actual film, because I purposely didn't look at anything so that after we talk, I could go check everything out for the actual film. But yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing, how the different roles are covered by the acting and it should be fun.
Alex Paxton:Yeah, the book is available through Amazon. You can either get your personal copy or, it is available through kindle.
Buddy:Very cool. Did you film in Kansas City or is it filmed elsewhere?
Alex Paxton:No, we did it all here in Kansas City.
Buddy:You did? Okay.
Alex Paxton:Yeah, we tried to make it anytown, USA, so we didn't go for some of the deliberate landmarks. But at the same time, we weren't trying to digitally erase anything or conceal anything. We just wanted to keep it more generalized. So people aren't just sitting there going, oh, look, it's it's Kansas City. Oh, look, there's the Liberty Memorial. Oh, look, there's, you know, Kemper Arena. Oh, you know, you're just like, oh, okay. So.
Buddy:Right. Are Kansas City listeners be able to recognize anything or is it filmed in a way that like, you might not be able to tell where you are?
Alex Paxton:Nah, you should if you're familiar with the area. Like I said, we didn't try to conceal it or make it look like anything else. There are probably some areas that people aren't as familiar with. So, it might be an interesting thing. Kind of like when when William Friedkin did To Live and To Die in L.A. and he's like, I don't want to just show the Capitol Records building and show, you know, everything else that everybody's familiar with. It's like, I want to go everywhere else. And so that's what we were trying to do. It's like, it's like, yeah, everybody else goes to like the West Bottoms and all these other different, you know, Liberty Memorial and The Sprint Center or whatever. And you're just going, okay, what if we tried down here? You know, what, if we, Ooh, that's an interesting place, you know, so.
Buddy:So any action sequences around the shuttlecocks of the Nelson?
Alex Paxton:Uh, no. Yeah. You'd think we'd have like a big old chase scene, but no.
Buddy:Well, that kinda leads me to my next question, which is when you were filming around town and I've read different things about filming on different sites, and different locations, and certain officials you have to talk to, and certain amounts of money, you have to pay to film in places. So I'm curious for you guys, how did that work with identifying sites for filming? Was it like guerrilla filmmaking where you, you know, okay, we're going to get into this spot at this time and we're going to get what we can until we get kicked off site. Or was it a more formal, like getting permission from like business owners or how did that work for the sites that you filmed on.
Alex Paxton:Yeah, that was pretty much that we went with the permission, you know, you know, it's like, yeah, looking back on it now it's like, oh man, if only we'd had known then, because our whole thing was, we didn't want to have any kind of lawsuits or legal problems for a distributor. Cause then they'd just be like, ah, no, nevermind. We'll we'll come back. When you guys get that all sorted out.'cause yeah, it was one of our big scenes. We were going to blow up a car and we went everywhere and we discovered that our main problem was we were asking permission where we should've just been like, oh, sorry. Cause I mean, at one point we had a spot that was perfect. There was like this vacant parking lot right next to a fire department, the fire department was on board, they were going to use it as a training exercise after we were done filming.
Buddy:Nice.
Alex Paxton:And then we go to the city council and we're just like, you guys are cool if we do this, right? Let us take a meeting and we'll get back to you. Okay. We took a meeting. The answer is, oh God, no. So you're like, ah, really.
Buddy:Yeah. Yeah. I read a book about indie filmmaking and digital filmmaking. And I can't remember the exact terminology, the author of this book used, but it was, he was talking about getting into sneak a shot without any formal process. Because the books about kind of like how to prepare your film portfolio and how to prepare your demo reel for folks that are just getting into filmmaking. And he gives some great tips and the book came with like a DVD with all sorts of like project files that you can experiment with and really excellent book. I'll get that title in the notes. But what was interesting is he mentioned that, cause he drops a lot of film references throughout the book, and mentioned La Femme Nikita in there and why some of the production stuff in La Femme Nikita was really significant. But I was surprised to read that there are a lot of shots and even in big name, big budget, Hollywood films, where the filmmaking crew snuck into a place, grabbed the shot as quickly as possible and got out of there.
Alex Paxton:Yeah, yeah.
Buddy:And like the one that comes to mind is a Lost in Translation, directed by Sofia Coppola. She talks about when they were filming in Japan, they did some stuff on the subway and they work things out with their crew where it was a very, very small crew following the actors around for just a couple of these, I don't know if it was a B roll or I don't think there was any dialogue or anything of these. And so they were just following the actors and actresses around the subway system, sneaking these shots. And I love those stories. Not that doing illegal stuff is cool, but we're talking to indie filmmaking, all these things can be really expensive to rent certain spaces and warehouses and, build props, and all this stuff. So anything you could do that site-specific and working on location somewhere. And that's why I think independent filmmaking can be really interesting because sometimes the process of solving problems, like coming up with a really interesting location where you don't have to build a massive, really expensive set, or you don't have to rent a whole city block to block off traffic or something. It forces you as filmmakers to like really think outside of the box and get really creative. So we might recognize some stuff local in Kansas City, but no, a big action sequences with shuttlecocks exploding, or people dangling from the Liberty Memorial or anything like that.
Alex Paxton:No, no.
Buddy:Alright, cool. Is there anything else that you want to add? Have you guys already started talking about other projects? Where are you at with Order 86? Are you still promoting it or?
Alex Paxton:Yeah, we're still promoting Order 86. We are basically just looking at getting into the cable market, like Showtime, some of the streaming platforms trying to figure out how to get into that. Yeah. I'd love to get into Redbox, you know, every little bit helps.
Buddy:Cool.
Alex Paxton:Yeah. At this point, like I said, we're just trying to promote it as best we can. We're hoping in the spring, we're in talks with a couple of local theaters.
Buddy:Right.
Alex Paxton:So with a bit of luck, we'll be at least on one screen. If not, a couple of screens, you know, in the springtime.
Buddy:Okay.
Alex Paxton:As far as upcoming projects, I'm actually heading into my third draft of a, this thing I'm writing for an audio book, which will basically be our next movie, but with everything the way it is at the moment, it's like, okay, we're doing it kind of the backwards way of instead of doing the movie with the novelization, you know, we've basically, it's like, okay, well here's a movie that's going to be coming out and then maybe next year it's like, you might see the movie, but that one's called Deadlines and Distractions. We're hoping to have that one out by summertime, just in time for the big reading season or in this case, listening seasons since it's going to be an audiobook.
Buddy:Awesome. So another question before we shift into kind of the next part of the show here, what was your reaction when you finally got a chance to sit down and watch Order 86, how do you feel about it?
Alex Paxton:Yeah. Seeing the finished product where everything's as good as you can hope for. And then you've got the music and everything and you see it on the big screen. Yeah. Part of you is just sitting there going, wow, we made a movie. This is cool. And then there's that other side of you, like you said, that, you know, you're just going, this is cool, but it's like, oh man, we could fix that. Now that I see it for like the a hundred and 14th time, it's like, you know, we could probably make that a little shorter. We could, oh yeah. We could change that a little bit. Or we could tell we could remix that and I just gone. Oh yeah. Okay. So yeah, it's, it's best not to look too long at it. I mean, I remember, you know, hearing stories of Stanley Kubrick changing 2001: A Space Odyssey. It had been released for like a week in a New York theater. And he was still reclaiming the print almost nightly and cutting out frames or trying to add stuff. And finally it's like, MGM just finally had to step in and go Stanley, no you're done.
Buddy:Yeah, sit down, you're done.
Alex Paxton:Yeah.
Buddy:I'm glad you mentioned that cause I was going to mention, I had watched a behind the scenes video and I think it was for the film Casino. I could be wrong, but it was a Martin Scorsese film and these worked with the same editor for decades. And I can't think of her name at the moment, but she's talking about the process of working with him and I think it was Casino cause she talks about, she was editing it at a time when avid digital editing was kind of being implemented in Hollywood. So the old analog film cutting process for editing was shifting over to digital editing.
Alex Paxton:Oh yeah.
Buddy:And it was a big learning curve for her. And she was sitting in the premiere for, I think it was Casino. I'm just going to go with that because I, I can't remember where I saw this, but she was sitting next to Martin Scorsese and they're watching the film and he just would not stop. He would not stop pointing out flaws and like things he wanted to fix. And at some point she turned to him and she was like, okay, enough...
Alex Paxton:Right.
Buddy:...it's done. Like, we're not doing anything else with this. It's done, just get over it. So yeah, I think, filmmaking attracts, especially directors and writers and it just attracts a certain type of OCD personality. You know, we've talked and I know you've got some serious passion for film and so even if you're not a filmmaker and you just watch a ton of movies, which is kind of where I come from, it's gotta be hard to finish a film cause there's always more that can be done. And so, yeah, I think I like knowing what that process is like, when it's time to say stop, don't touch it, it's done. Okay. That's going to do it for episode 13 and episode 14, Alex is going to be back again, and we're going to dive into some of our favorite spy films. Some of them are titles that you're probably already familiar with and some of them might be new to you. So, thank you so much to our special guests and that'll do it for this episode. We have a new branch manager at Waldo library, so welcome on board MaShonda Harris. The show is edited by myself and David LaCrone with additional technical support by Katie Montgomery. And our music was created by Franny Finstrom Clark. Thank you for listening. Take care, and we'll see you in the next show.