Brush Creek Film Review

Join Buddy Hanson and guests for a wide-ranging discussion of movies, filmmakers and cinematic story references. The show places special emphasis on titles that are available from the library collection of DVDs and streaming services like Kanopy and Hoopla.

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Brush Creek Film Review

SPY vs. SPY vs. SPY

July 07, 2022 • KCLibrary • Season 1 • Episode 14

Buddy continues the discussion with Alex Paxton about the spy genre focusing on spy novels and movies.

Buddy: 0:00

Welcome back to Brush Creek Film Review. I'm your host Buddy Hansen. And I'm joined today by a special guest...

Alex Paxton: 0:06

Alex Paxton, how are you doing folks?

Buddy: 0:08

This is episode 14 and part two of our previous episode, we're gonna continue our conversation about some of our favorite spy films. Alex, we covered your film project and talked a little bit about that. So shifting into the umbrella theme here, spy films and stories. First started talking and we were planning this episode and we got onto the topic of spy films and stories. We've never covered this before. I really had to kind of scrounge my brain to put together a list of films I've seen that fit into the spy film genre. And then since we started talking about this episode, I have basically just been gorging on spy films.

Alex Paxton: 1:25

Yeah.

Buddy: 1:27

I read Moonraker by Ian Fleming, one of the James Bond books. I've been watching Bond films in Flint films. So I've got all sorts of references in my head, fresh ready to roll. To kind of kick off the discussion. I'm curious to know what your take is on the spy genre. Like what is it that makes the spy genre? Exciting. Why was it so popular at certain periods in Hollywood history? What is it about the storytelling that is fun and exciting? And why is it that they're still being made? I mean, the Ian Fleming books for folks that don't know the book form of James Bond, which is what inspired the films. Those were coming out originally in like the fifties, right.

Alex Paxton: 2:12

Yeah. They were like the fifties through like the late sixties.

Buddy: 2:16

Yeah. The one I read recently was the title page said it was published in 1955. And I, I don't know what the newest bond film was. I, I'm not up to date on some of the newer Bond films.

Alex Paxton: 2:28

Yeah.

Buddy: 2:28

But clearly this is like a genre that is still chugging along. I mean, it's still popular and not just, not just Bond, but the spy genre.

Alex Paxton: 2:37

Yeah.

Buddy: 2:39

So when we got going on this topic and started talking about, you know, films that we like books that we'd read, I thought it was a really fun topic and it kind of brought some films to the surface that I hadn't really thought about in a while. And so I kind of went through my film memory and put together a list and I sent you this ridiculous list or amateur list?

Alex Paxton: 2:58

No, it was, it was interesting. Some of the stuff you sent me, cause like I said, I was going through and looking at him going, okay. I can see where he is going with this, going with this. Okay. Well that's different. Okay.

Buddy: 3:11

Yeah.

Alex Paxton: 3:11

All right, so...

Buddy: 3:12

Yeah, to kind of just summarize my introduction, thoughts here about spy films. For me, it's kind of new territory talking about it, especially the stuff you sent me. Cause I did watch almost everything that you sent me. And I read a couple things that I would not have read before we started talking.

Alex Paxton: 3:30

Oh, okay.

Buddy: 3:30

And it's been a really fun process because I'm gonna read all those Bond books now. I never thought of reading the books, but I read Moonraker published in 1955. Of course, there's a film that was released in 1979, which is why I picked Moonraker cause 1979 is the year I was born. And I was like, oh my gosh, there's so many Bond films to choose. What's one that I haven't seen and let's just kind of go from there. I think there's some really creative stuff that's happened over the last 10, 20 years. And certainly, you know, the 1960s and seventies had some great stuff.

Alex Paxton: 4:03

Oh yeah.

Buddy: 4:04

But I think the spy genre is still alive and well, and I think there's some films out there, newer films that you could tuck them in the spy genre...

Alex Paxton: 4:13

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 4:14

...but I think it's kind of broken open and there's all sorts of other stuff you might be interested in. And so I, I want to kind of kick things off with that thought because some of the films that I sent you, Alex, when you first see the title, you might think, well, that's not really a spy film, but there's so much packed into spy stories.

Alex Paxton: 4:31

Yeah.

Buddy: 4:32

Things like heists, like Heat, you know, is like one of the most popular heist films. Well, heists are a major part of spy storytelling.

Alex Paxton: 4:41

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 4:42

Mysteries. I could tell you as a librarian, mysteries are enormously popular, physically. A huge section of the library is just all mystery book.

Alex Paxton: 4:51

Yeah.

Buddy: 4:52

Who done it? You know, how, how did they do it? You know? Who's the villain, who's the traitor, that kind of stuff. So to me, what's exciting in talking about in kind of studying spy films. There's a lot packed in there. You know, there's a lot of different stuff packed in and there's some really clever devices and tricks. With the characters, the props, the setting, there's so much creativity packed into these things. Yeah. So what are your thoughts on this genre? Like what is some early spy films that you saw or some early books that you read and what are your thoughts on the genre overall? What's the magic sauce?

Alex Paxton: 5:30

Well, personally, I think that some of the better spy stories came out of like the fifties and sixties cold war was definitely in its height. You know, things started getting really technological through the eighties, even though, you know, I mean, you did still have the cold war, but everything was down to, oh, well, they're gonna push the button, they're gonna push the button. You know, it's like, oh, we've gotta get the latest technology, you know? Cause if you read some of like the John Gardner Bond books, they start off okay. You know, just because it's kind of cool in a sense, cause you're like, oh wow. You know, it's like, here's a character that I haven't heard from in a while. You know, it's, it's, it's kinda like, you know, you're like a long, lost relative, you know, it's like, wow. You know, it's like, I haven't talked to you and what 20 years, you know, it's like, oh, okay. What, what what's you been up to? Oh, all right. So you, yeah. You've, you've got the latest model car. Okay. Yeah, you got the, the latest model pistol. Okay. And the latest model, you know, super high tech electronic gizmo that you gotta go shut down because you know, somebody's gonna use it to knock down a spy, satellite or something. It's going, oh, okay. Here we go. Then of course, through the nineties and the new millennium, everything's become all about computers and oh, high tech surveillance and drones. And so it's like that stuff just kinda loses interest after a while. You know, when you can solve all of your problems with a cell phone, it's like, oh, you know,

Buddy: 6:50

I think I know what you're getting at it. Just to kind of riff off what you're saying. So Casino Royale, the book, the James Bond book came out in 1953. Now the first James Bond film is Dr. No, right?

Alex Paxton: 7:03

Yes, that was, I think, 1966 or five when that first came out.

Buddy: 7:08

Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I know what, where you're getting at with that is when the spy genre really hit the scene in full force with, you know, James Bond and films, like the Derek Clinton films or The Silencers. Is it Dean Martin?

Alex Paxton: 7:23

Yeah. Yeah. Dean Martin is Matt Helm. Yeah.

Buddy: 7:25

Yeah. Is it safe to say James Bond is, is where like the maximum audiences came out of the woodworks.

Alex Paxton: 7:32

Oh, definitely.

Buddy: 7:33

Cause obviously spy stories have been around way longer than that.

Alex Paxton: 7:36

Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've got spy stories going back to like before World War I, I mean, you know, you probably take it all the way back to George Washington's day, you know, and some stories. Yeah. It just, as far as the, be all super spy. Yeah. It was definitely Ian Fleming who created that. And when that took off in popularity. Well, actually, now that I think back, I guess, I guess Dr. No would've had to have been somewhere around 63 or 64 because the, the Flint and the Matt Helm novels or movies didn't start coming out until 66. But anyway, I'm digressing, but yeah, I mean, it just, you know, you, you had like this be all super spy, you know? And so suddenly everybody was like, James Bond, you know, and then you get television, you know, you had like the Man From Uncle and Danger Man. And you know, like all these guys, like coming up with, you know, the first form of MacGyver, you know, I was like, oh, I can, you know, call headquarters on my fountain pen. And I can also, you know, take out your car with it or whatever the case may be. And then yeah, you start getting into Derek Flint who is more of a parody of the super spy at one point, you know, even his boss is asking was like, is there anything you don't know? You know, it just, it's like the guy, you know, teaches ballet to the Bolshoi, you know, it just, he's, he's learned a new way to communicate with dolphins. He just like the guy just does everything doesn't even really need the government for anything. You know, they're trying to give him all these special gadgets. It's like, no, nevermind, sir, I've got my own, you know, it's like, I, I created this.

Buddy: 9:18

Let's just take James Bond cause it's prime real estate, okay.

Alex Paxton: 9:22

Sure.

Buddy: 9:23

Comparing some of the newer James Bond films with some of the 1960s, 1970s Bond films, I think what's really exciting about spy's storytelling is, you know, at the time when James Bond was really hitting, the, the big screen in full force was kind of a time when technology was kind of picking up the pace and rapidly evolving.

Alex Paxton: 9:46

Oh, yeah.

Buddy: 9:47

Late seventies, early eighties, or maybe even mid seventies is when computers kind of started to hit the scene.

Alex Paxton: 9:54

Yep.

Buddy: 9:55

I've read Walter Isaacson's book about Steve jobs and, and the history of apple computer. And I think it's like seventies when computers started to happen, you know?

Alex Paxton: 10:04

Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much the late seventies was when they started becoming more outside of like an office or NASA.

Buddy: 10:11

Yeah. And didn't fill like an entire room.

Alex Paxton: 10:15

Yeah. I mean, you know, they keep saying, it's like, oh yeah. It's like the, the technology that it took to send the first man to the moon can now be found in your cell phone.

Buddy: 10:24

Yeah, for me, pulling back the curtain and looking at sort of the mechanism, the formula for spy stories and trying to get at talking about like, what is it that makes them fun and unique and why is it that people keep coming back to James Bond? Every time they release a new Bond film or, you know, fans of the spy genre that are really into this. It's interesting to get into the technology side of it, because at the time that Bond was hitting, the big screen in full force was kind of a time when everything was technologically computers were just getting ready to, to be born into society at large.

Alex Paxton: 11:01

Mm-hmm yeah.

Buddy: 11:02

And when you're watching these films and like you said, you know, the clever things that are happening with the gadgetry and even like the way the films were made, like I was watching some behind the scenes for the Derek Flint films and some of these folks, critics and stuff, talking about why those films are so fun and unique and, and awesome. And how, like a lot of the Flint films are shot on sound stages.

Alex Paxton: 11:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Buddy: 11:27

And they use things like miniatures.

Alex Paxton: 11:29

Oh yeah.

Buddy: 11:30

There is a golden era of film when the technology itself almost paralleled the stories that were being told, you know what I mean?

Alex Paxton: 11:39

Yeah.

Buddy: 11:40

So the things happening in the Bond films that are really fun and exciting, the action sequences, the props, the characters, the places that you travel to, like, you know, cuz some of those Bond films, it's like you're visiting like four or five, six different countries from beginning to end, you know but the creativity that goes into the props. And the storytelling and because it is pre-digital effects and pre CGI, all that stuff had to be like actually built.

Alex Paxton: 12:12

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Buddy: 12:13

For choreographed, you know, for action sequences. There was no 3d special effects character that could be dropped in through avid or Adobe premier or whatever, you know, like...

Alex Paxton: 12:25

Yeah.

Buddy: 12:27

...if you wanted a guy to punch a guy or to fall out of a plane, like you had to convince people that, that looked real by actually shooting it in camera somehow, or, you know what I mean?

Alex Paxton: 12:37

Yeah. You had to have a guy fall out of a plane, you know.

Buddy: 12:40

Yeah. Yeah. So it was an exciting time in the sixties and seventies when bond films were being released and really on everyone's radar and really popular. The Derek Flint character. Do you wanna introduce our listeners to Derek Flint? Cause I had never heard of Derek Flint before.

Alex Paxton: 12:57

Oh really?

Buddy: 12:57

Just our listeners. No. We have two films at the Kansas City Public Library on DVD. It's a DVD set and it's two films and then a third disc that has some really great special features. The two films are Our Man Flint, which was released in 1966. And then the second one, which is In Like Flint.

Alex Paxton: 13:15

Yes.

Buddy: 13:16

Do you wanna kind of talk about the Flint character and maybe compare him to like James Bond? Cause I think everyone's familiar with James Bond. We probably don't have to get too much into bond, but Flint's unique.

Alex Paxton: 13:26

Yeah.

Buddy: 13:27

The most exciting thing about Flint to me is I was like, oh, this is what Austin Powers was inspired by.

Alex Paxton: 13:33

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 13:33

You know what I mean?

Alex Paxton: 13:34

Yeah, yeah.

Buddy: 13:35

Yeah.

Alex Paxton: 13:36

Because I mean, yeah, it. Derek Flint was yeah. A character, you know, played by James Coburn. I mean, he was what everybody could possibly strive to be if they were using all of their time well, you know, it's the things that this guy came up with. Cause I remember watching this as a kid. And, you know, cause I'd seen, you know, the Bond films. So it's like, I knew, you know, the whole concept of the super spy and all that, but it's like, there was just something about Derek Flint. I clicked more with the, wow. Somebody could actually come up with this or is, you know, if you had like proper time management, you know?

Buddy: 14:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like everyone. Someone in their life that could be compared to Derek Flint, the character.

Alex Paxton: 14:21

Mm-hmm.

Buddy: 14:22

I had a friend of mine in college who I would call Derek Flint. Cause we were real competitive friends and we'd play Scrabble and chess and darts, you know, and, and ping pong and racketball.

Alex Paxton: 14:32

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 14:33

And he was the type of guy that like was just immediately good at everything.

Alex Paxton: 14:37

Yeah.

Buddy: 14:37

And just so irritating to compete with. I was, you know, always been into competitive sports and mostly for the fun of it. And probably cuz I grew up with a competitive brother who is also into games and sports and stuff. And so, you know, I've always really enjoyed the competitive spirit of that kind of stuff.

Alex Paxton: 14:56

Sure. Yeah.

Buddy: 14:56

But yeah, that buddy of mine in college, you know, he was just that type of guy that was like, you look at him and you go like, what's wrong with you? Why are you so good at everything? You know?

Alex Paxton: 15:04

Yeah.

Buddy: 15:06

Yeah, I totally know what you mean. Derek Flint is a symbol of some kind of perfection that like only a few of us have. And most of us know, at least at least one or two people that have that kind of magic sauce, special golden ability to just be good at everything, you know,

Alex Paxton: 15:22

Mm-hmm yeah. He was almost like the predecessor to Buckaroo bonsai, you know.

Buddy: 15:29

Yeah. So tell us about Derek Flint, the stories like for folks that haven't seen it kind of in a nutshell, like what's the difference between Derek Flint and James Bond?

Alex Paxton: 15:37

Well, I mean, Flint really didn't rely on as many gadgets as Bond did, you know, Bond would always he'd get his mission and send off. And they're like, okay, you know, it's like, here's, you know, your briefcase that can do these eight amazing things and, you know, here's your car that can do, you know, another 12. And as long as you've got the car in the briefcase, you're indestructible. With Flint and the first one, Our Man Flint, it's like, he's got, you know, eco terrorists, you know, who could control the weather. And they're basically trying to get the world to submit their vision of, you know, Nirvana and they send in, you know, our man Flint he's gotta, you know, foil the plan. Yeah. Just some of the, the things he comes up with, you know, it's more of the reasoning behind it. They weren't just like the Austin Powers films, you know, like played to just kinda spoof on the super spy. Like they really kind of had an interesting message as far as, you know, some of the, the things going on at the time. Cause I even remember like in. In Like Flint, I'm always surprised that nobody's ever brought this up just in a film festival or anything as of late with all the, you know, things going on. Basically, you've got this group of women who are trying to take over the world and, you know, they're trying to beat the men at their own game and you're just like, well, that's an interesting idea. Okay. And then just how they resolve the whole thing. Cause I don't wanna give too much of it away.

Buddy: 17:05

Well, and by the way, there's only two Flint films. There's like a million bond films. There's only two Flint films.

Alex Paxton: 17:11

Yeah. Yeah.

Buddy: 17:12

There is a TV film for Flint. I'll tell you, Alex. I tried to stomach as much as I could of the TV film.

Alex Paxton: 17:20

Ooh.

Buddy: 17:22

There's some great behind the scenes stuff where they compare the TV film and explain why it's so terrible. If you check out the DVD that we have at the Library, you'll see what I mean, but it's very different than the two most popular James Coburn, Flint films.

Alex Paxton: 17:38

Yeah, no, I definitely wanna check that out.

Buddy: 17:39

But just so folks know the character's name is Derek Flint spy film. The first film was super popular.

Alex Paxton: 17:46

Yeah.

Buddy: 17:47

The second film I don't think was as financially successful, but it, for folks that are fans of the character, it, it's still a really popular series of films.

Alex Paxton: 17:56

Oh yeah.

Buddy: 17:57

But there's only two of'em.

Alex Paxton: 17:58

Yeah.

Buddy: 17:59

When you introduced me to these, I'd never heard of it before. And as soon as the first film ended, I like popped in the next one. They're just super fun.

Alex Paxton: 18:07

Yeah.

Buddy: 18:08

Just something else. I, I wanted to add to what you're describing with the story is some of the names they come up with for this stuff is hilarious. What is James Bond's organization? He's part of a, a British secret service, right?

Alex Paxton: 18:21

Yeah.

Buddy: 18:22

They probably actually have that, right?

Alex Paxton: 18:24

Yeah. It's MI6?

Buddy: 18:25

So Bond is kind of like a little bit more like rooted in realism. Mm-hmm Whereas Flint, they take a creative license and really kind of stretch things out to make things kind of larger than life.

Alex Paxton: 18:38

Oh yeah.

Buddy: 18:38

So for example, the organization that is part of the Flint films is called Z.O.W.I.E.. Yeah. Z O W I E, which stands for Zonal Organization World Intelligence Espionage. You know, like, yeah. And then in the second film, the villains are threatening to take over the world and they want to throw out the patriarchy and install a matriarchy. Their organization is called the Fabulous Face Organization.

Alex Paxton: 19:09

That's right. Yeah.

Buddy: 19:11

I think for me, what I really loved about the Flint films is. They're still rooted in like the spy storytelling, kind of the formula, you know.

Alex Paxton: 19:20

Mm-hmm.

Buddy: 19:20

Here's this character that has all these super special abilities, very charismatic, and everyone wants to be around him.

Alex Paxton: 19:29

Yeah.

Buddy: 19:29

And he's part of this super secret organization and he's capable of these incredible things with Bond. It's it's like they take it a level further. They exaggerate everything. The colors are more vivacious, everything's just like larger than life and accentuated more than the Bond stuff. You know what I mean?

Alex Paxton: 19:50

Yeah.

Buddy: 19:52

And so it's like a cartoon portrait versus like a fine artist. Rendering, you know what I mean? Like,

Alex Paxton: 19:58

Oh yeah, yeah.

Buddy: 20:00

That's kind of the way I think of Flint. He's like a characterization almost cartoonish, which some people might lean more on the Bond side of that and be like, no, I kind of like more of the realism, you know?

Alex Paxton: 20:11

Yeah. I mean, I, I totally get that. You know, people will always like Bond, of course, you know? Yeah. Back in the sixties, you had Sean Connery. I mean, right. It doesn't get any better than Sean Conner. Yeah, but the Flint movies were really just, like I said, like kind of just a takeoff on that, you know, it was like, you've got the, the super spy and we're just gonna amp him up and make him flawless, you know? Yeah. I mean, it was kinda like what you know, Dean Martin was doing with the Matt Helm movies, but to a lesser extent, I mean, Matt Helm was definitely more human. You know, things would go wrong, you know, he didn't have. All of his special gadgets, but the ones he had always seemed to work out just right at just the right time, you know.

Buddy: 20:55

I have that on my list and I did not get a chance to watch The Silencers. So yeah. Alex is talking about Matt Helm, which is another character just off the top of your head. Alex, are there any other characters, like if we're just kind of putting the other list of spy characters, you got James Bond, Derek Flint, Matt Helm. Some characters that I thought of that are part of my film list are Lisbeth Salander from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, I thought of the series, cuz I love the books by Steig Larson. Mm-hmm I don't know if you've read'em but

Alex Paxton: 21:27

I have, yeah. They're they're really good. I enjoyed'em.

Buddy: 21:29

Yeah, I just gobbled those things up. And when we got into the spy topic, I thought of that because to me, Lisbeth Salander the main character is really kind of like a modern or like a contemporary spy story.

Alex Paxton: 21:42

I can see that.

Buddy: 21:43

It's not the same as Bond or Derek Flint. Right. But there are a lot of similar elements.

Alex Paxton: 21:49

Yeah, cause she wasn't really a spy. She was just more like a reporter, you know, just.

Buddy: 21:54

Yeah. She was like an investigator hacker that had all sorts of special abilities and she was just this really intriguing, powerful character that had like a certain skill set that was very similar to some of these spy characters.

Alex Paxton: 22:08

Yeah. Yeah.

Buddy: 22:09

That for me is the parallel is, you know, those special abilities and things like mystique and intrigue, maybe not the charisma.

Alex Paxton: 22:16

Mm-hmm.

Buddy: 22:17

But, so when I was trying to think of anything that I've seen, that's related to spy films, because the spy genre is new to me.

Alex Paxton: 22:23

Yeah.

Buddy: 22:23

You know, I thought of some of the female characters, like what's the other one, the French film La Femme Nikita.

Alex Paxton: 22:28

Yeah.

Buddy: 22:29

Point of No Return are those spy films?

Alex Paxton: 22:32

Yeah, La Femme Nikita. I would call that a spy film. She was probably closer to like a female Bond as far as just, you know, she's got, you know, the license to kill. I mean, she's a trained assassin, you know, I've not seen Point of No Return. When I first saw the preview for it. I'm just going, oh my God. They've remade La Femme Nikita.

Buddy: 22:52

Yep. That's all it is.

Alex Paxton: 22:53

I just, I couldn't get that taste outta my mouth. And it's like anybody who saw the film was just like, yeah, it's, it's everything you think it is. I'm going. Yep. There's one movie I can avoid.

Buddy: 23:03

Okay. Yeah.

Alex Paxton: 23:04

I really enjoyed La Femme Nikita. I've I've seen that multiple times, but yeah, sadly I don't own it. So it's like, I wasn't quite as brushed up as I was hoping to be.

Buddy: 23:13

Right. So the characters that I think that's, what I like about this genre is, you know, I might not be like a hardcore spy film fan, but the elements of spy films are I think really fun.

Alex Paxton: 23:26

Oh yeah.

Buddy: 23:27

The creativity that goes into, like, there's nothing better than a really cool intimidating villain.

Alex Paxton: 23:32

Mm-hmm.

Buddy: 23:33

I think that aspect of spy films creating really cool villains is something I think is interesting from like a storytelling perspective. For me, the takeaway with spy films is that there's a lot of genres and stories related to spy films. It might not fit in the spy category, but there are things related that I really like. I like the heist things that writers come up with. All the clever tricks and characters that are part of those stories.

Alex Paxton: 24:02

Yeah.

Buddy: 24:02

Obviously some of the gadgets, my favorite thing about Derek Flint was his watch.

Alex Paxton: 24:07

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 24:07

that wakes him up when he is like in a meditative state.

Alex Paxton: 24:11

Yeah.

Buddy: 24:11

He's got this little watch that has this little wiry looking bar thing that pops out and it just like wiggles back and forth. To wake him up.

Alex Paxton: 24:20

Yeah. Uhhuh it's yeah. It's, it's just that slight sensation on his wrist that wakes him out of a deep coma. You're just going, this guy is so in tuned with his body, that that's all he needs.

Buddy: 24:34

Yeah. Well, and you know, there are things like Dick Tracy that had fancy watch, you know? Yeah. Two-way radio watch, which at the time, you know, was really creative.

Alex Paxton: 24:43

Yeah. Hell we still don't have that. So, you know?

Buddy: 24:46

Yeah. Well, we had the Apple watch, which I thought the, the first thing I thought when I saw the Apple watch was, oh my gosh, Dick Tracy, you know?

Alex Paxton: 24:53

Yeah.

Buddy: 24:53

Dick Tracy is almost here.

Alex Paxton: 24:56

Almost give it a, give it a couple more years, cause yeah. It's like, I always told myself, it's like, man, if they ever come out with a watch like that, I'll get it.

Buddy: 25:03

Yeah.

Alex Paxton: 25:04

And it's like, I saw it and I'm going, oh. I might have to go get that, but then I realized that, oh, it's just basically a satellite for your phone that you still have to have with you. I'm going. No, no, no. I want the phone in the watch.

Buddy: 25:16

Right? Right. I want the Dick Tracy watch.

Alex Paxton: 25:18

It's like, I don't wanna have to carry around two devices. I only want one and it's gonna fit on my wrist. And it's gonna be sweet.

Buddy: 25:24

I loved the Dick Tracy film and I think it was in the nineties.

Alex Paxton: 25:28

Yeah. It was like 91, I think.

Buddy: 25:31

Yeah. It was like Warren Beatty and Al Pacino.

Alex Paxton: 25:34

Yeah.

Buddy: 25:34

And a bunch of other folks,

Alex Paxton: 25:36

Dustin Hoffman, Madonna was in that.

Buddy: 25:39

Madonna.

Alex Paxton: 25:40

Yeah.

Buddy: 25:41

That was nineties, right? Like early nineties.

Alex Paxton: 25:43

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so that was like, it was either 90 or 91. It was like really early.

Buddy: 25:48

Yeah. Okay. So I was 10, 11 years old around that time.

Alex Paxton: 25:52

Yeah.

Buddy: 25:52

I remember my brother and I got for Christmas the year that Dick Tracy, the movie was out and we were a big fan of the movie we got, it was like a kid's toy. That was like a walkie talkie built into like a watch strap.

Alex Paxton: 26:05

Yeah.

Buddy: 26:07

They designed it to look just like the Dick Tracy watch you know, stuff like that is so much fun. And I think trying to introduce the younger generations right now to things like the spy genre and some of these old, you know, films, it might be a little challenging because. We've talked about this in other episodes, like for those of us that kind of know what the world was like before cell phones and computers really took over. There's some understanding of why things like the 1960s spy films were really fun and exciting. Whereas now some of the props and special effects might not be as impressive.

Alex Paxton: 26:43

Yeah.

Buddy: 26:44

But I always say I grew up right on the cusp of that stuff. And folks that kind of know the world pre-internet, I think there's kind of a shift in taste that comes with computers and all that stuff.

Alex Paxton: 26:55

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 26:55

I used to teach a stop motion animation, a small nonprofit here in Kansas City. And as part of the class, I'd always have a couple of films that I would show.

Alex Paxton: 27:04

Yeah.

Buddy: 27:04

Little clips of stop motion, animation, special. So for example, King Kong, Mighty Joe Young, all of the, like Clash of the Titans, Ray Harryhausen films.

Alex Paxton: 27:15

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 27:16

Cause I didn't realize until I was putting that stuff together for classes that Ray Harryhausen the animation effects guide, I mean, that was like some of the earliest special effects in film history, you know?

Alex Paxton: 27:28

Oh yeah, yeah.

Buddy: 27:29

So introducing kids to the effects that we're using King Kong, they could be so detached from like, why that was really cool, you know? But it's interesting to see like younger generations see that resonate.

Alex Paxton: 27:47

Exactly. Yeah.

Buddy: 27:48

There's this one scene in one of the, the Derek Flint films that behind the scenes disc talks about this, where this guy's talking about, you know, when he gets locked into the safe, ah, there's a scene where Flint gets locked into his safe, they slam the door shut. And if you're paying attention, you'll notice that like, the whole set moves when they slam the safe door, you know, so some of the effects and stuff can be a little primitive and clunky, but it's also kind of part of their charm. You know what I mean?

Alex Paxton: 28:17

Yeah.

Buddy: 28:19

What are some other characters?

Alex Paxton: 28:21

The late sixties, early seventies, when Michael Kane was doing Harry Palmer, who was based off a character from the Lynn Dayton novels. Cause he had, was it the Iris File, Funeral in Berlin and The Billion Dollar Brain.

Buddy: 28:36

So those are spy stories.

Alex Paxton: 28:38

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, Harry Palmer was, wasn't quite like a James Bond type more like something you might find in like a, you know, John le Carré novel or something.

Buddy: 28:47

Okay.

Alex Paxton: 28:47

But yeah, no, he was, you know, fairly popular character, obviously. I mean, they made three movies off of it. I believe there were only the three novels if there was ever a fourth one, I, I don't know about it, but I didn't really follow Dayton all that closely, but yeah.

Buddy: 29:01

What about the list I sent you? Did you recognize anything in there? Like The Saint directed by Phillip Noyce from 1997, which has Val Kilmer playing the main character there. Are you familiar with that one?

Alex Paxton: 29:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing that, cuz yeah, that was based off of the TV series. Ironically enough, starring Roger Moore. Was he a spy? Was he more of like a cat burglar.

Buddy: 29:24

You know, it's been a while since I've seen that one.

Alex Paxton: 29:26

Yeah.

Buddy: 29:27

John le Carré, the Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. I saw that one recently. Have you seen that one?

Alex Paxton: 29:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That last one they just did with Gary Oldman. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I thought that movie was really good.

Buddy: 29:40

Yeah. I wanted to get that one in there because did you know if the author died recently?

Alex Paxton: 29:44

Yeah.

Buddy: 29:45

Yeah. It was sad to hear that. I just, strangely enough, like read, I forget if it was his last novel or his second to last novel.

Alex Paxton: 29:52

Just a couple of months prior to that.

Buddy: 29:55

Yeah. That's a prominent name, some other names that came up, just a casual list of recommendations for anyone that's interested in spy books, Lee Child, the Jack Reacher.

Alex Paxton: 30:05

Yeah, I love that series.

Buddy: 30:08

I'm not familiar with it, but it's on my list. I will be reading those soon.

Alex Paxton: 30:13

Yeah.

Buddy: 30:13

The first one in the series is called killing floor by Lee Child.

Alex Paxton: 30:17

Great book, go read it.

Buddy: 30:20

Whenever I get into a genre, like I'm very, I have a very kind of academic mind. I can't just casually read a book and call it good. Like I have to read up about the author and I love like all the behind the scenes stuff. If there's films out there, you know, like, you know, when I'm into something, I really thoroughly like to absorb all the details, you know?

Alex Paxton: 30:39

Yeah.

Buddy: 30:39

Some of these, I got a chance to read and others, I didn't. But another one that I thought of when we first started talking, Alex is a Spy versus Spy. The old Mad Magazine comics.

Alex Paxton: 30:50

Yeah.

Buddy: 30:50

Illustrated by Antonio Prohias.

Alex Paxton: 30:52

Yeah.

Buddy: 30:54

He's a really interesting artist that created the Spy versus Spy series. It's one of my favorite comic book titles, because for folks that don't know, or aren't familiar with Spy versus Spy, it's a black and white comic book series that was featured in every issue of Mad Magazine.

Alex Paxton: 31:10

And yeah, I used to get Mad Magazine just to read spy versus spy. I love that.

Buddy: 31:16

Yeah, it had like kind of a cult following and it's still, I think it's still around.

Alex Paxton: 31:22

It might be, it's been a long time since I've read Spy. So I couldn't tell you.

Buddy: 31:26

Yeah, it's kind of like some of the Disney titles that have blown up into these huge franchises where you can get Spy versus Spy, everything, you know, they're just toys and games and video games and, you know?

Alex Paxton: 31:37

Yeah.

Buddy: 31:38

But the original Spy versus Spy was a simple black and white comic book or comic strip that was in every issue of Mad Magazine. And what's really unique about it is there's no dialogue whatsoever.

Alex Paxton: 31:50

Yeah.

Buddy: 31:50

The entire story is told just through the illustrations.

Alex Paxton: 31:54

Yeah.

Buddy: 31:55

When I was a kid, I loved Looney Tunes, cartoons, and Chuck Jones, all the Chuck Jones stuff. But one of my favorite series was the Tom and Jerry cartoons. What's interesting is Spy versus Spy and Tom and Jerry are kind of related because Tom and Jerry, they never had me dialogue.

Alex Paxton: 32:13

Yep.

Buddy: 32:13

It was all sound effects and music, you know?

Alex Paxton: 32:16

Sure.

Buddy: 32:17

You're familiar with the Spy versus Spy, but that, you know, you could pack that into a, a list of spy stuff, you know?

Alex Paxton: 32:23

They've got a bunch of those collections out there. Spy stories. Charlize Theron and Atomic Angel or no Atomic Blonde. I'm sorry, Atomic Angel's a band, but yeah, Atomic Blonde yeah. Came out, you know, a few years back.

Buddy: 32:35

Oh, okay.

Alex Paxton: 32:36

That's a really good movie. Oh, I enjoyed the hell out of.

Buddy: 32:41

Okay.

Alex Paxton: 32:41

Again, it was one of those movies that in an age of, you know, where you've got Jason Bourne's and you know, all these little, you know, technological spies that you know are just more hackers than anything else. One of the things I really enjoyed about this film was the fact that it set in 1989 at the fall of the Berlin wall.

Buddy: 33:01

Yeah.

Alex Paxton: 33:02

And I'm just like, oh, okay. So this is gonna be like a really good old school spy story.

Buddy: 33:07

Right.

Alex Paxton: 33:08

You know, nobody's gonna solve this thing five minutes into it because they can just sit there and call in reinforcements on their phone. You know, it's like, you've gotta track down a phone, put a quarter in, dial a number and hope that somebody's home to receive the call. You're like, okay.

Buddy: 33:22

Right, right. That's actually a really good point because I don't know, there's a certain time period that like, they kind of fit really nicely into.

Alex Paxton: 33:30

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 33:31

If we're talking about spies in 2021, I mean, surely there's still spies. They still exist in reality. You know what I mean?

Alex Paxton: 33:40

Oh, sure. We're always gonna have spies.

Buddy: 33:42

I would imagine the spies of today, the skillset and the, the actual work of being a spy is very different than like a spy from 1989 or 1950, or, you know what I mean?

Alex Paxton: 33:55

Oh yeah, yeah.

Buddy: 33:56

From like a storytelling and especially filmmaking perspective, the time period is kind of important, you know, cause there's a big difference between contemporary spies of today and spies of, you know, yesterday or a decade ago or five decades ago, you know?

Alex Paxton: 34:13

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 34:15

So, yeah, that's cool. How about this one? Okay. So what do you think about Batman bringing that into the spy discussion?

Alex Paxton: 34:24

That one was an interesting one.

Buddy: 34:26

You know, cause the more I thought about it, the more I was like, if I take the Bond films out of the picture and I was like, what other current spy films are out there? And, you know, for some reason, Batman and like, especially the Christopher Nolan, the three Dark Knight films that he did cause in my mind, those are by far the best of the Batman stuff.

Alex Paxton: 34:46

Yeah.

Buddy: 34:47

And part of it is I'm just a big fan of his, his style.

Alex Paxton: 34:51

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Buddy: 34:52

Like I just saw The Joker not too long ago and I was pretty impressed.

Alex Paxton: 34:57

Mm-hmm

Buddy: 34:57

They have taken that comic book, which has been around for a long time. They have taken that story. And it has evolved to a level of, I almost wonder if a hundred, 200 years for, or maybe a thousand years from now, if the Batman stuff will become kind of the Greek mythology of today, you know what I mean?

Alex Paxton: 35:16

Yeah.

Buddy: 35:16

It is amazing how much that has evolved and how the story changes through each director's perspective. But then the more I thought about it, the more I was like, Bruce Wayne, come on. That is like a modern. The new films, the Dark Knight films that is like just another form of James Bond.

Alex Paxton: 35:33

I can see that. Yeah.

Buddy: 35:35

You know what I mean? Yeah. Batman was featured in the detective comics and I mean, I guess, I guess you could argue that it's like more mystery.

Alex Paxton: 35:43

Batman is essentially like super cop.

Buddy: 35:45

Super cop. Okay.

Alex Paxton: 35:47

If you didn't have to play by, you know, the Miranda rules and anything else, you know, the it's like, yeah, Batman. Okay. He's he's the ultimate cop.

Buddy: 35:56

Yeah. He's the ultimate vigilante, you know?

Alex Paxton: 35:59

Yeah.

Buddy: 36:00

Yeah. I thought that was kind of an interesting spin, you know, like maybe I can't convince everyone that Batman is just kind of like a different form of James Bond, but come on, there's some things in common, you know, the access to incredible technology and super abilities. He's very stealthy and like capable of bringing down the top bad guy and, and ways that are uncanny and totally unfamiliar to all the other heroes. You know, the regular cops couldn't even come close to Batman because Batman's got his own special skillset.

Alex Paxton: 36:30

Yep.

Buddy: 36:32

So which Bond is your favorite? Which actor are you like the best?

Alex Paxton: 36:36

Well, I'd definitely have to say Sean Connery really followed up closely with Pierce Brosnan.

Buddy: 36:42

Oh, really?

Alex Paxton: 36:42

Yeah.

Buddy: 36:43

Oh, okay.

Alex Paxton: 36:44

The only one I've really had a problem with was Roger Moore. Well, it wasn't so much like his portrayal. Cause I, I thought he, Roger Moore's a good actor. It's just the, the films that he was in. Once he got past Live and Let Die, they just started becoming kind of corny.

Buddy: 37:01

Yeah.

Alex Paxton: 37:01

You know, it's like, he was always kind of telling some dumb joke and you're just going, really? This is not Bond. This is like Bond light, you know, you're just going, I mean, not even Flint would tell these kind of jokes. You're just going, come on, people.

Buddy: 37:15

What do you think of Timothy Dalton?

Alex Paxton: 37:18

I thought he did a good job as Bond. It took me a long time to warm up to Living Daylights basically because they wrote the script and then they found the actor. Most of these people, they, you know, found the actor and it's like, okay, we will write a script around him. So it's like, yeah, I thought the storyline was okay. I thought he was all right. The one after that License to Kill was the one he did after that. And I enjoyed that. A lot of people don't a lot of people will list that as like one of their least favorites. And I understand it because it's basically, is he James Bond or is he Sunny Crockett? I mean, it's basically Bond going after cocaine dealers really, you know, this is the best you guys could come up with.

Buddy: 37:57

Mm-hmm.

Alex Paxton: 37:58

You know, and I also thought that Robert Davey made a good bond villain. Yeah. I don't know. Like I said to, to me personally, it's like that, that's probably my favorite Timothy Dalton, you know, bond film.

Buddy: 38:09

I was curious what you thought of him because was it Licensed to Kill? Did he do that one?

Alex Paxton: 38:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Buddy: 38:15

That was the first Bond film that I ever saw. Oh, you know how it is. Like, if your first introduction to a story is backwards, you know, like you see a recreation first and then you see the original or something like that.

Alex Paxton: 38:27

Yeah.

Buddy: 38:27

So Timothy Dalton. If I hear someone say Bond, he's the first actor that comes into my head because that was the first film I saw of the Bond films. But also I liked him because when I read Bond, Timothy's image is like the closest for me, him and Sean Connery.

Alex Paxton: 38:45

Yeah, that's kind of why I was leaning towards Pierce Brosman when they announced that he was gonna be playing it. I'm like finally somebody read the book.

Buddy: 38:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Paxton: 38:55

You know, cause like they always talk about, you know, it's like the, the dark hair and the, the dark eyes and you know, it's like all this stuff's going. Yeah. That's him.

Buddy: 39:02

Right. Kind of wrap things up since we're kind of focused on books and films and you know, this podcast is Kansas City Public Library. If we're trying to encourage folks to, to get out there and check out this stuff, where do you think people should start? Maybe pick like one or two books and one or two films that if you're gonna check out spy stuff, these are the books you need to read first, or these are the films you need to check out first.

Alex Paxton: 39:25

Book wise? Yeah, I would probably say, Casino Royale by Ian Fleming.

Buddy: 39:31

Oh yeah. Why didn't I mention that yet?

Alex Paxton: 39:33

Well, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, John le Carré.

Buddy: 39:36

Is there an older version of that film?

Alex Paxton: 39:39

It was more of a, a mini series. It was like a, I wanna say a two or a three part mini series that played a lot on PBS. It had Alec Guinness as George Smiley and I've only seen pieces of it, you know, Alec Guinness did a really good job with it. Yeah. I mean, it's like as far as. Anything accessible if you can't get ahold of the miniseries then yeah. I'd say the Gary Oldman film.

Buddy: 40:01

Mm-hmm yeah. So Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, Casino Royale. So we're talking Ian Fleming and John le Carré and he's actually British, right?

Alex Paxton: 40:10

Yes.

Buddy: 40:11

British.

Alex Paxton: 40:12

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Cause le Carré is actually an alias or a no du plume. I forget his real name, but

Buddy: 40:19

okay.

Alex Paxton: 40:19

Yeah. He used to actually be a spy.

Buddy: 40:21

Oh, okay.

Alex Paxton: 40:22

Yeah. Both him and Fleming, which is how both those guys tell such really good stories.

Buddy: 40:27

Oh yeah. We didn't even really get into that. But yeah, I read some of that stuff too, about Fleming and you know, he worked for what? The department of Naval intelligence during World War II.

Alex Paxton: 40:37

I believe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Buddy: 40:39

So that's cool stuff. So Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy was published in 1974, just to remind people, definitely check out the notes, if you wanna check any of this stuff out. So Alex, just to kind of wrap things up, you know, we mentioned some films books, like if you were recommending just one or two spy films.

Alex Paxton: 40:58

Well, I'd have to go with Dr. No.

Buddy: 41:01

Okay.

Alex Paxton: 41:02

And...

Buddy: 41:04

Order 86.

Alex Paxton: 41:05

Sure. why not? Yeah.

Buddy: 41:10

Come on. That was a big segue right there or big.

Alex Paxton: 41:13

That, that was, yeah, that was, that was over the plate.

Buddy: 41:15

Yeah. Order 86 and Dr. No, and you're good.

Alex Paxton: 41:18

There you go. Yeah. Yeah. You never need to see another spy film again after that. So.

Buddy: 41:24

Yeah. Okay. Well, I, I really enjoyed reading Order 86 and I can't wait to see the film version. Thank you so much, Alex. Really appreciate your time.

Alex Paxton: 41:34

Oh, absolutely.

Buddy: 41:35

And check out Order 86, Dr. No, the Ian Fleming books, all the references are there. I think we, we laid some good groundwork, but yeah. Thank you very much. That does it for this episode.

Alex Paxton: 41:46

Thank you.

Buddy: 41:48

We have a new branch manager at Waldo library. So welcome on board MaShonda Harris. The show is edited by myself and David Lacrone with additional technical support by Katie Montgomery. And our music was created by Franny Finstrom Clark. Thank you for listening, take care and we'll see you in the next show.