The Veterinary Survival Show
The Veterinary Survival Show
The Hidden Culture of High Performing Vet Practices: Secrets to Success
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Explore the hidden culture of high-performing veterinary practices, focusing on intentionality, team dynamics, and leadership. Learn practical strategies to build and sustain a positive, productive practice environment.
key topics
- The feel and atmosphere of high-performing practices
- The importance of intentionality in culture building
- Strategies for hiring personality fit over technical skills
- The role of leadership and vulnerability in culture
- Financial indicators of a strong practice culture
Sound Bites
- "A high performing practice feels relaxed and energized"
- "Hire for personality, teach technical skills"
- "Accountability is rooted in shared values and trust"
Chapters
00:00
Introduction and Celebrating Culture
01:59
The Essence of High Performing Practices
06:00
Intentionality in Building Culture
09:57
Financial Insights and Culture Connection
13:02
The Importance of Team Dynamics
18:37
Defining and Measuring Culture
23:04
The Impact of Intentional Culture on Performance
28:39
The Role of a Practice Manager
30:49
Leadership Training and Team Dynamics
33:29
The Difference Between Management and Leadership
35:59
Transforming Practice Culture
37:42
Challenges in Changing Culture
45:43
Resources for Building a Better Culture
50:40
www.LGA.CPA
Resources
Dare to Lead by Brené Brown - https://www.amazon.com/Dare-Lead-Brave-Conversations-Courage/dp/0399592520
The E-Myth Veterinarian by Dr. Peter Weinstein - https://www.amazon.com/E-Myth-Veterinarian-Dr-Peter-Weinstein/dp/1119546794
The Energy Bus by Jon Gordon - https://www.amazon.com/Energy-Bus-Guide-Attitude-Change/dp/1118901742
Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek - https://www.amazon.com/Leaders-Eat-Last-Civility-Leadership/dp/1591848016
Traction by Gino Wickman - https://www.amazon.com/Traction-Get-Grip-Entrepreneurs-Operations/dp/1936661837
We know that running a veterinary business can sometimes feel like you're fighting your way through a jungle of financial insecurity, HR nightmares, and overall business confusion. Our goal is to give you the ideas and tools you need to not just survive in this jungle, but to thrive in the veterinary industry. By combining over 50 years of knowledge and experience with differing opinions and a little humor, we will help you get the information you need to make the best decisions for you and your veterinary business. Welcome to the Veterinary Survival Show with veterinary CPA and certified financial planner Mark McGon and Certified Veterinary Practice Manager and Practice Owner Jenny George.
SPEAKER_01Hello, everyone, and welcome to the next episode of the Veterinary Survival Podcast. I'm Chris O'Day. I'm here with Jenny George and Mark McGone. Jenny, Mark, how are you both doing? Well, I'm doing great. It's Jenny's birthday. She's great. It is happy birthday, Jenny.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Thanks. We didn't really need to announce that, Mark, but thank you very much. This is my last year in the 40s, so it's hitting a little harder, but that's okay. And I'm hoping, I tell my kids all the time I plan to live to be 100. So I'm like, I'm like not even at my halfway point. So I still have a lot left to give.
SPEAKER_01With all these medical advances, she might be 150. We we have no idea right now. So and then um I second you on that holding on. I'm when I I turned 38 this year, I'm like, I'm gonna make this year last. Like it's gonna not the rest of my theories just flew by. But all right. Back to on topic. We have an episode today. Listeners will love, and I know Jenny is going to love. The episode is titled The Hidden Culture of High Performing Vet Practices. So obviously, with this topic, Mark, all the questions are gonna be directed to you today. No, if you are a first-time listener of our podcast, Jenny is a big proponent of culture is king in veterinary practice. If you want a high performing practice, you need a high performing culture. So, Jenny, the first question is for you. When you walk into a high performing practice, what do you notice in the first five minutes that a camera probably wouldn't capture?
SPEAKER_02The if you are you talking about like a practice with a good culture, a high performing culture. Okay. The feel of it, you will see team members who are smiling, who seem actually happy to be there. You'll feel a little less stress in the air, like a little less tension. Um, you know how you walk. Sometimes you walk into a place and you're like, oh, like immediately you can feel that, you know, these people are unhappy. They don't want to be there. You know, they're answering the phone, like, can I help you? You know, and everybody seems stressed and nobody's talking to each other, and the the clients, you know, seem stressed. When you walk into what I think of as a high performing practice with a really good culture, your team members seem a little bit more relaxed. I mean, it still could be chaos. If you're working in an ER med, all hell could be breaking loose, and that's not uncommon. But your team is functioning, you're they're happy. They might even be joking around a little bit. Your clients are usually relaxed. Sometimes the clients are joking with the team members, but you can tell right away. Usually it's a nice clean facility, you know. So you notice that right away. Like there's not, you know, pee or poop someplace, or, you know, even if you look around like the floorboards, they're nice and clean. Like it, you just it should feel bright and energized, but also relaxed at the same time. That's the for, and I get that all the time from our clients when they walk in and they're like, everybody just seems happy to be there, you know? And maybe you're seeing the same people over and over again because you should have high retention if you have a good culture.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Yeah. So you could feel it in the air when you walk in. It's Phil Collins would say, so say you're in one of those high-performing cultures. What's the most underrated thing that high performing vet practices do consistency that no one really talks about?
SPEAKER_02They work on it. It's intention. Everything is with intention. If you're not intentionally working on your culture, it's building itself. And as we know by watching media, uh, you know, social media, the news, whatever, negativity takes over. You know, I mean, I always say this to my kids because they're like, there's so much negative stuff in the world. And I'm like, there isn't. It's just what is the loudest, right? So if you aren't working on your culture, the negativity will be what takes over. All of those, you know, you may have 20 people working for you. And if you've got two kind of negative people, they're gonna be the loudest, and that's what's gonna take over if you're not actively engaging the team in culture talks, values, behaviors, if you're not meeting on a regular basis and bringing it back to what your culture is and things like that. So to me, the most the thing that nobody sees is the intentionality behind it, you know, and the intentionality behind all that you do. Every decision that you make as a practice owner, a practice manager, someone in a leadership role should always come back to your culture. You know, if you're gonna bring a new piece of equipment on, does this fit with what we're trying to do, who we're trying to be, what we're, you know, or is it just the bright and shiny new toy? And so I think that when we hire, we hire the same thing. I hire, I always say it, I hire for personality. I can, we can teach people. If you're willing to be taught, you can teach people pretty much anything. But if you hire for personality, if you say, okay, you seem like you're gonna fit in really well here, you know, that makes all the difference in the world. You're not just hiring a warm body, you do everything with intentionality. So I think that that is probably the the most underrated and the thing that's not seen the most, but that is by far the most effective tool is just doing everything that you do with intentionally, not reactively, but intentionally.
SPEAKER_01Now when you're doing those interviews, is there certain questions you ask about to get to their culture, or is it more of how they respond or advise?
SPEAKER_02I yeah, I think it's more in how they respond. The questions that I ask are tend to be very open-ended questions. And I want to get a feel for who they are as a person. You know, so instead of saying, tell me the tasks that you did at your last business, it's why are you looking to work here? You know, what are you looking for in a position, you know, in a job? Not what do you need to make, but what are you looking for? You know, what is your ideal um, you know, what would your ideal benefits package look like? Or what would your, what, you know, what do you need? And I always, you know, what do you have for animals? You know, things like that. And if they just don't crack a smile or a joke, I'm they're probably not gonna fit in here because we're a very loud, extroverted group. And so a lot of that can happen, or you know, you can tell a lot of that in a conversation. You know, a lot of it is body language. Are they making eye contact? Are they sitting up straight? If they put their phone on the desk, I'm like, nope, because that means that that's more important than I am in this moment. So yeah, so I but I think when you interview, I think a lot of practices really get involved in the technicality of the positions, especially, especially if you're hiring for a technical position like a CVT, a veterinary, and things like that. I don't need to know if you can place an Ivy Catheter, we can teach you how to do that. What I need to know is are you going to be able to communicate well? So I might ask questions, you know, when was the last time you had to deal with an unhappy client? And how what how did you help resolve that? You know, just very open-ended questions, but a lot more geared towards communicating with team members, clients, and things like that.
SPEAKER_01Love that. And then one funny antecedent for me, when I interviewed for a job about 12 years ago, I was way too serious to have my interview. I joke, I love to joke, but then they asked one of my references, does he ever smile? He seems so serious. And they're like, Did you talk to the same person? And then so I learned don't bring my full joking butt. You gotta bring a little bit of your personality in there so they don't get the wrong idea about how yourself butt up.
SPEAKER_02That is 100% true. So one of my head CVTs, her name is Veronica, but we call her Amish because she's from Pennsylvania. She is not Amish at all. But she did her internship here and she actually went to school with Aaron and Ashley, who are two of my other team members, one's a vet tech and one's a road technician. And they were like, oh my gosh, you have to meet this. She's so funny. You're gonna love her, Jenny. So she came in her first internship, and she was so serious the whole time and boring. And I was like, this is who you guys are raving about. I did not see, and they were so adamant that I actually had her come back and do her second internship with us. And her per like, you can only hide your personality for so long, right? Internship. And I was like, oh, there you are. She has now been with us for 14, 15 years, and I freaking love her. But yeah, you have to, there's, you know, a term auth authenticity that comes out a lot, especially with social media. Be your authentic and your true self. And right, I think for those of us who have maybe been deemed a bit much, don't bring all of that to an interview, but but just a little bit of it, just because nobody wants to like hire, like I said, you shouldn't be looking for a warm body. You should be looking for somebody who brings personality. Now, if you are a clinic that is all very professional and straight laced and and quiet and a little bit more introverted, like you would never hire me. And that's okay, because it wouldn't be a good fit for me either. So you're bringing your personality to figure out if it's a good fit on both sides.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. So, Mark, you look at financials all the time, practices like Jenny's. Is there a financial profile that tends to go hand to hand with strong culture, or do great culture practices still look messy on paper, or is it very comment about Jenny or We know everything I do?
SPEAKER_02Everything I do is messy.
SPEAKER_00No, when I look at financial state, I mean I have my my parameters that I look at just to say, oh my God, or wow, these people are doing great. The lead-ins to culture, I think, I look at continuing education and staff events, functions, staff meal. It gives me a lead-in to whether they're committed to education, which I think brings people together and helps them operate better as a team clinically, professionally, etc. And the staff meals and events, I'm not talking about vendors bringing in pizza, I'm talking about sending out people to go go-karting or wine and art or go into a Red Sox game. I mean, you want to have those events that do things to bring the staff together. But I think, as Jenny said, is everybody gonna be on board with that? Are they gonna be the right personality to do that? The events, etc. Probably most people would. But the continuing education, I think it also shows that the owners are committed to getting their team to be a teen. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's things that go beyond just the norm, so that they're show that they're really invested in their people and not just try to check the box, as you said. Like we brought in pizza this year, three times, and said of we went we took our families to the fireworks and everything. So things that go beyond to build that culture of a place that you want to belong to and that wants you there as well.
SPEAKER_00I mean being yeah. Being inclusive, like Jenny brings her team to VMX, and there's people that I see there that I never saw before. I mean, I had a hospital up here that brought 15 people down to VMX one year, and they all showed up at our booth and crowded the whole booth, and I'm like, wow, nobody I don't see anybody doing that.
SPEAKER_01That that's rare. So on that, Mark, got a follow-up question for you. So owners often treat culture as a soft investment. Can you make the hard financial case for it?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I can look back at my own clinical experience as a paramedic where there were 50 paramedics in our department, and we kind of did everything together. You went to everybody's wedding, you went to funerals, you went to parties, you I mean, everything was celebrated, and it was everybody, you know, everybody showed up. Um, there were a couple people that weren't that high on the social calendar as as it may be, but predominantly everybody was there all the time. And it it it just translated to a much better work environment because you kind of knew everything about everybody. I mean, I knew what people liked on their bagels, but that's because I hung around them so much. And I think in veterinary medicine, I I those practices that don't do that, it's it's a job. I think it will be treated as a job by employees if it's not that step or that bridge towards a family culture or an extended family culture. I mean, you don't have to do everything together, but it's nice. I mean, it's it's nice if you know people's birthdays, if you know their children, if you know, you know, anniversaries, birthdays, etc. I mean, that kind of thing brings people together.
SPEAKER_02I think one of the financial, the positive financial implications that you could almost make a and I mean, there's no the problem is is there's no real hard studies on this, right? Like there's no benchmarks for this. Like, you know, you have the well-managed, but what is well-managed? When you're just looking at your ratio of how many team members per doctor, that doesn't necessarily mean well-managed. That just means that, again, you're just looking at bodies. So I think that when you look at your retention rate, you know, how many team members have been there for so long? So you don't have the turnover. That being said, it could mean that your payroll is a little bit higher because now you have team members who have been there for longer. So they're getting paid more. They're maybe at the top tier of your benefits, you know, things like that. So it might be a little bit higher, but also how much does turnover cost? And when you think about the fact that most certified or v vet techs or registered vet techs are professional veterinary technicians only are in the industry for five to six years. Like that's a lot of turnover. And these are people who've gone to school for this and have, you know, really put in the time and effort and have to get the continuing education. So if you support that financially as a practice, you're probably gonna have less turnover. So this year we actually have two more team members that have reached a 10-year mark. I had to go and get a new plaque. Our plaque has 12 names on it, and we've already filled that up. So right now, I have at the end of this year of my 26 team members, 14 of them have been with us for over 10 years. So that I think to me is a good financial thing to say. Like, and it helps with client retention because, you know, they come in, they want to see the same technician. They want the same technician to trim their dog's toenails. They're so happy when they talk to the same receptionist every time. You know, so I think that it it does show financially in your profit is typically a little higher. The problem is it's hard to say definitively because there haven't really been any studies on this, and we don't have a lot of, a lot of benchmarking on what on on a truly, you know, what is an excellent culture and what happens with that.
SPEAKER_00But don't you read, Jenny, that there's a lot of issues out there where when people quote culture, they're talking about there's no career track in veterinary medicine. I mean if there's no career track, why are people with you for 10 or 15 years?
SPEAKER_02Well, and that's part of that's part of like my culture is as you know, we do very much support continued education. You know, every single year I bring a doc myself as a certified veterinary practice manager goes to VMX. Sometimes we go to Western as well. Uh I'll bring a doctor, I'll bring a certified vet tech, I'll bring a veterinary technician or a veterinary assistant and a CSR. And I mean, these are your vet techs, your vet assistants, your your CSRs are ones that usually don't require, if they're not certified, they don't require continued education. I don't really care because I think it's important. There's we can always learn and grow. And so I think in a healthy growing practice, there are always opportunities for growth within your team. So yeah, Mark, you're right. If if you just show up every day and you punch in and you punch out, it's a job, right? We've we've frequently said that's typical of like Dunkin' Donuts, you know, any kind of fast food or coffee chains or, you know, those are just jobs. Those are not places necessarily retail. Some people can make a career out of it for sure. You know, there are people who manage, you know, work their way up and end up maybe being a franchise owner in a Dunkin' Donuts. And that's great. But the majority of people do not grow that way. In the veterinary industry, you know, so one of my one of my CSRs, who started with me, she started with me as a CSR. Then I cross-trained her as a road technician. She has horse experience. We needed her a little bit. She can do that. So she went out on, so now she goes out on the road. Then we started cross-training her also as a assistant, a vet assistant. So now she's cross-trained in three different places. I moved her up to head receptionist. So she leads my meetings and all of that, you know. And I've we've gone to leadership training and we talk a lot. And, you know, I kind of guide her, even though she's very young. I try and guide her as far as like, what does that look like? What does leadership look like? Now she's leading the way we're changing our practice management software, which is enough to make anybody's head explode. She's the one who did all the research and helped pick which one we were gonna go with. You know, she would bring me all of the information. She's leading up all the meetings, she's leading up on the all the training, she's leading up like answering all the questions. There are ways to grow. This is a CSR who has now been with me for 10 years and has had all of these new. Now, her goal is one day to be in this office and running the practice. And she, you know, she's decided that she's gonna keep my my paint color because she likes it. But, you know, she's like when I'm in this office. But I love that. I love that she's looking at it long term. You know, we hired her when she was, I don't even think she could drink yet. So I, you know, to have her here and to really look at those opportunities long term, you can make those opportunities. But that also means that you're properly delegating to your team members. Your doctors aren't doing everything, your certified vet techs aren't glorified animal holders, your owners aren't undermining every decision that the team makes. So I think all of that leads into culture and leads into, right, it's more of a profession than a job.
SPEAKER_01So there's a difference between good and great uh in a practice that has a good culture and one that has a culture built into it, how it actually operates. And I think you try you really hit on that, Jenny, with the intentionality. How do you determine if it uh it is there any way to tell if it has a culture built into it versus just having a a good culture because everyone's friendly?
SPEAKER_02Again, I think it goes back to the intentionality of everything that you do. You know, our culture has been built, and I think this is a mistake that some people make in that they think like, oh, I can talk about this at one or two team meetings, and that's good enough. Working on your culture is a constant and a slow process. It is not something that happens overnight. It is, and yes, you can. If you go in and everybody's happy, but right, you don't have, like Mark was talking about, you don't have the opportunities to grow. You don't have the support of your owners as far as continuing education. You know, yeah, everybody might be happy. I mean, I worked at an ice cream shop. My first job I ever got when I was 15. Well, other than a newspaper route. I used to ride my bike around and chuck newspapers at people's houses, but that was bad way back when. But, you know, my first job was at an ice cream shop. It was great. We had a great time. My boss was great. My all my the people that I worked with were great. We were all in high school. We had a fun. We never had team meetings, we never talked about any of this, and we had a ton of turnover because as soon as we graduated, the next group came in, right? That was a good culture. It was fun. It was a good place to work. We enjoyed it. But when you're looking at that, it was a job, right? When you're looking at professions, I think that, you know, when we have conversations about culture, when we were coming up with our four culture points, it took us seven months of two team meetings a month, really talking about what are we looking at? You know, okay, we say high quality patient care. Okay, every veterinary clinic wants to have high quality patient care, right? So what does that look like? For us, that looks like practicing maybe a little bit more fear-free. That looks like, you know, encouraging clients to stay with their pets if possible, or if they're coming in for surgery, bring a t-shirt so that it smells like home. You know, just thinking outside of the box, offering 50 million different kinds of really junky treats like bagin strips and and cheese whiz and all of that kind of stuff. That's and trying to keep the clients out of that. I can't tell you how many clients come in and they're like, oh, the pretzel rods and the cheese, is that for us? No, it's not for you. Okay. You shouldn't be eating this and neither should your dog. We just do it here. But that we literally sat there and defined what does high-quality patient care mean? What does excellent customer service mean? You know, does that mean sending flowers after they lose a pet? Does that mean, you know, making sure that if they have a uh a dog that's scared to come in, okay, we'll take care of that in the parking lot, right? Like, how does it calling to check up on them after their appointments? So we really sat down and and identified what these things were. And this did not come from Simon and I as the owners. This came from the team. So it took months to do that. It took months to go over what are our core values. Again, I gave my whole team a list of a hundred core values. I threw on some like Spa music and I gave them all 15 minutes because I didn't want to give them too long because they're all overthinkers to come up with their top three or four values that they felt identified with the clinic. Not them personally, kind of, you know, not what they thought of Simon and I, but the clinic. Then we take those values, I write them all on a big piece of paper and we vote for them. And the top four became our values. One of them was teamwork. Okay, what does that look like? What is teamwork? So we then we had to come up with a definition. That was a whole nother few meetings to come up with an actual definition. Not the Webster, you know, dictionary definition, but what is our definition of teamwork? Okay, now what does it look like to live in those values? But all of that was led by the team. All of those things. And now everything that we do comes back to that and we continue to talk about it. So it has to be, when I say intentional, I don't just mean like, oh, you're intentionally thinking about it. I mean you're actively working on it.
SPEAKER_01So Jenny, uh sorry, but on that, when you put all that work in, what changes do you see in your practice? Do you see people more invested or what positive changes from all that work did did you see pay dividends?
SPEAKER_02I think it helps holding people accountable because then so say we go back to our our our culture, one of our culture points is excellent customer care, right? High quality patient care. Okay, fine. Those are easy. One of our values is teamwork, another one is trust. Now you show up late consistently. Okay. So now I can say, do you feel like that's building trust within the team? Do you feel like that helps with patient care when you show up 10, 15 minutes late? And we have patients that have been waiting maybe overnight and need to be walked. And, you know, so we can always bring it back to these points with something as easy as, okay, your your attendance isn't great. Uh, you know, you're calling out late a lot, or, you know, you're taking a really long lunge. So it helps hold them accountable and it helps them be able to hold each other accountable because it can always come back to those points. So I think that that's really the most, like, that's one of the ways I think I saw differences. Also, the team felt included. This is their practice, right? It's not me saying, okay, you guys, like if Simon Simon and I did pick our own values beforehand, the team's values were not the same values as Simon and mine. We went with the team values because if all we're gonna do is tell you, this is who we are, and I want you to be that way, you know, I mean, that kind of works. But when we hash it out and they really talk about it, it becomes their values and it becomes their practice. And yeah, they are more invested in it.
SPEAKER_01I love that. So there's a famous Colorado cross-country coach named Mark Wetmore. He won a bunch of national championships, but he'd always have the team set the goals. So it was you it was their goals, they're invested in it, they have to do the work. So love that. Mark. So you could well, let's not drop what's it called, the hidden culture, but just hearkening back to the other part of the episode title, high performing vet practices. When you look at the financials of a truly high performing practice versus an average one, what do you see in the numbers or what do you see that the numbers alone can't explain?
SPEAKER_00I see profitability, whether it's IBITA or adjusted earnings, whatever nomenclature you want to reference it by. I mean, they're doing well. Usually I I I zoom to the bottom line and then I zoom to the top line, and I'm like, what's the relationship and why if I don't know anything about them? It's not like I can drive by most practices, they're all over the country. I go I do Google Earth them.
SPEAKER_02You're like, oh, this looks so nice from a top view.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I go to a street view too. I actually I do on every single practice. I try and just determine the relationship. And it, you know, just like Jenny has a gut feel about people, I have a gut feel about practices until they tell me something different. But it's usually, you know, if their profitability is 18, 20, we have some one that's 25%, you know, at four to six million of revenues. Those are like great benchmark practices. And then we when we dive into what what are they doing, we can understand better. But a lot of times it's a great leader, it's whether it's a great owner, and a lot of our owners are hands kind of hands-off. They have a great manager that directs the practice and directs the employees, and and maybe it just leads them a little and they're already doing great on their own. But there's something there that's high performing, and and a lot of the times it's the culture.
SPEAKER_01So pick up on one thing you said there. What do the best practice managers do that average ones don't?
SPEAKER_00I think a lot of practice managers are reactionary. I'll say, What is this in your financial statements? And they're like, I have no idea.
SPEAKER_02I may have said that before.
SPEAKER_00Not a lot, but usually it's I don't know. I don't know. And that there are ones that the owner told us to always do this, so that was their unwritten policy. Normally I can ask a question about inventory, and they're like, Well, when we did our last cycle count in November, it was this, and then the accountant adjusted it to this, and I don't agree with that. And, you know, we can we can kind of dive into the backstory. There most are very proactive. We see some that are reactionary, which doesn't lead to great results. And I'm sure if it doesn't lead to great results financially, what are they doing operationally and from a human resources standpoint? Hopefully it's not one and the same.
SPEAKER_02I think it is important. You know, a lot of practice managers are still sometimes on the floor. So a lot of practice managers have been moved up from like a certified vet tech position, which can be good. It can also be bad if you if one, they didn't want it really, or two, you haven't given them true autonomy over the position. Like, you know, they say something, then the person didn't like it, so they go ask the owner, and the owner completely undermines everything that that practice manager did. You just cut the legs right out from underneath them, right? Also, I think if you don't train for leadership, techs love to go to these conferences and learn all the new dental techniques and anesthesia techniques and surgery and da-da-da-da. And I'm like, yeah, and we're gonna go to this leadership one. Yay! But I think it's very important for them to have that training. And so I think that a good practice manager has knows what each position does. Like, I can never be a CVT. I've never, that's not what I went to school for, but I can work as a veterinary assistant and that puts me right with the CVTs. And then I can definitely be a CSR. That's where I started. And so I understand all the positions of that job. I understand the stresses of it. And I think when your team members see you helping out, taking the trash out, doing a little cleaning, helping assist when, you know, somebody calls out sick and they come up and say, Hey, Jenny, can you come down and work this afternoon? Yes, I can. Let me change into my scrubs. Let's get this done. It messes up my day, you know, but it doesn't happen enough that I can't get my work done as well. But you have to have a pulse point on every aspect of your practice. You know, you have to kind of have a big, you know, you're the big canopy overlooking everything. And I'm not sitting there and it's fun because when I'm downstairs, they tell me what to do. I am not the boss when I'm on the floor as a vet tech. I am not the boss. That is not where I'm the most comfortable. So, like, Jenny, I need you to do this. Jenny, I need you, okay, fine. And they think it's great because then they're in charge. And I'm like, yes, ma'am, you tell me what to do. As a CSR, I do tend to be a little bit more in charge because I've been doing that for so long. But, you know, like even just this morning, I had one of my assistants come in or one of my road techs come in and she goes, Jenny, I need to hold you accountable. And I'm like, bring it. What did I screw up? And I did. I messed up setting up an appointment and not getting the right information. And she told me that, and that's great. And, you know, we talked about you're right, I didn't double check everything, but they're not afraid to come to me. So this goes to like psychological safety. Your practice managers have to be able to talk and be able to, there has to be psychological safety there where your team can say, Hey, I have this idea. Will you listen to me? Or, hey, you kind of messed this up. Can we talk about this? And so I think there has to be a vulnerability and leadership. And I think that there has to be psychological safety so that your whole team knows that it's okay to screw up because we all do it. And but I think that the really big thing is that your practice managers have to have a pulse on, like Mark said, I don't do it, I hate inventory. I don't do inventory. But I bet you 10 bucks right now, if you came in, I could pull up whatever reports you needed to. I know who to go to to figure it out. Controlled substance, I obviously have a very strong finger on that. You know, we know what goes in, what goes out. And I think that that's part of being a good, good practice manager is having just knowing what all the different moving parts are.
SPEAKER_00So that technician that's basically highly analytical, highly technical, has no aspiration for a career path, and you're sending them to leadership training, is that to give them a flavor of leadership or to understand leadership or both? And the second, it's a bigger question, we have practice managers who don't have the same interaction that you have because a lot of them are we we've seen them being remote. And I I think if you don't have boots on the ground, at least partially, that you're not gonna know the undercurrent of what's actually truly happening. You could have cameras in every exam room and front front desk area and inventory, and you will never know what's going on, even though you see it.
SPEAKER_02So, for to your first question as far as leadership training, I only take people to leadership training once I have had conversation with them. Are they interested in a leadership position? I'm not just gonna put them up there because they've been there the longest. That is a huge error that we make in BentMed. I became a practice manager or I started doing my first, I shouldn't even say I was a practice manager. I was not. I basically was a bill collector. But I got moved up into that position when I was, I think, 21 years old because the practice manager that worked at our practice embezzled and and uh didn't pay taxes and gave her notice and moved to Belize. So that was fun. And then the IRS comes and knocking. And our practice owner was like, hey, Jenny, can you help me? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. But he never asked me if I he didn't, I had no skills. What did I know? You know? And so I think that that's a mistake that we make a lot is we're like, oh, yeah, you seem like you can do this. Let's do this. So I try and have conversations with each one of my team members. Is this something that you even want? Because there are some team members that I have that don't show up to the team fun things. They're introverts. This practices a lot. They come in, they do a great job, they go home, and that's all they want.
SPEAKER_00Do they want to work at a CPA firm?
SPEAKER_02No, you're not taking anybody from me. Are you crazy? Try it. No, I I I do think that there is something to be said for some of those people that are just at a point in their life that they don't want that extra added thing. Or maybe they're at a point in their life where they can't take on anymore. You know, maybe they're a new mom, or maybe they're taking care of an elderly parent and they just can't take anything more on. That's okay too. Then this isn't the right time, and maybe an opportunity opportunity will arise later. So, no, I do not include everyone in leadership unless they've made that decision and we've talked and decided that yes, this is the route that we want to go. We want to go, they want to go. You know, it's not me forcing anybody into a position. Now, to your sec, what was your second part of that question?
SPEAKER_00Remote practice management.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yes, remote practice management. I think there's a huge difference between a manager and a leader. Okay. A manager can easily tell people, here's what you need to do, here's your list, get it done. That is a manager. A leader, what is it? A leader inspires people to go where they didn't want to go in the first place, right? Like, okay, we're changing practice manager software. Everybody is not happy about this. I can tell you, I got about three people that are like, oh, this is gonna be great. The majority of them are like, how hard is this gonna be? My God, what does it mean? Like they're sweating, you know. Okay, so we have meetings. I talk to everybody. Hey guys, this is why we're making this decision. This is what this new program is gonna go for. None of us know exactly what we're doing right now, and it's gonna take some time to learn. So let's all hold hands and go together. That's leadership, right? So I think there's a huge difference. I think if you're at home working remotely and right, you're just looking at things. Maybe you're listening to them. If you are, you have to tell your team members. You can't just have a camera that records video and audio without letting your team members know. So even if you're listening, you're not hearing everything. I can tell you that right now. You're not hearing what they're talking about out by the car when they're leaving. You don't have a feel for it. So I do think if you're gonna do some remote work, you have to be able to get into a practice a few times a week. The other issue with that is, and I run into this, my office is upstairs. As soon as I walk downstairs, everything's fine. Nobody's complaining, nobody's talking about anything. And I'll have team members come up and they're like, Jenny, oh my God, it's so bad down there. And I'll be like, looks good to me. So that's where your middle tier management and leaders come in, is they can help with that culture when you're not there. But I do think to be a true practice manager, which should also be a leadership position, I think to do that 100% at home. I don't I my opinion is that would not be as effective to actually leading the culture of a practice. It might be great at managing people, but I just don't see that as a good, as a good leadership tool.
SPEAKER_01Your second question for that is what did the financial picture look like on the other side if they change their culture around? So first off, have you ever seen someone uh turn their culture around?
SPEAKER_00I have. I've seen them turn their profitability around, their culture not as much. Like Jenny said, it has to be intentional and you have to work on it. I think a lot of people, I mean, we have practice owners in their 30s, we have practice owners in their sixties. The people in their sixties may be committed enough to work their culture, but it's not like, oh, we're gonna sell in two years, let's let's ramp up our culture.
SPEAKER_02It's not the focus.
SPEAKER_00And profitability, I think if they had worked more intentionally on their culture years before, that their profitability would have followed too. Because then everybody's committed and everybody can see the benefits. But those people that spend $210 for a staff of 15 on continuing education, I'm like, oh my God, that's like nothing.
SPEAKER_02Pennies. It's not gonna get you anything.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't get you anything. I mean, you know, we had a practice spend $50,000 on continuing education for their team of 40, and they thought that wasn't enough. Uh but they did complex surgeries, they had boarding, grooming, doggy daycare, massage therapists for their their pets that were being bored. I mean, everybody was highly trained. You know, it it it it just I think it brought everybody together because a lot was expected of them. It's not like please just show up and do almost a moderate job and you know, collect your paycheck and we'll be really happy that you showed up. That wasn't the goal. It was to be everybody to be the best that they could and how could get they could get there. It was training, whether it was, as Jenny said, culture training, leadership, technical skills, whatever somebody you you know wanted their role to be, they could be that at that hospital.
SPEAKER_01No, you you you speak around the country on culture, and I call it conference pixie dust, like someone gets so inspired, they like, I want to like follow up and do this and do this. Have you ever had someone like that follow up with you and actually put that culture into effect and make those changes?
SPEAKER_02Well, say no, not at this point. But if you have, if you've come and heard me speak and you want to tell me about it, I would love to hear it. I think the problem with it is a lot easier when you start fresh. It is very difficult when you walk into a toxic practice and say, I'm gonna turn this around. Because a lot of it is getting rid of those toxic team members. And a lot of those toxic team members have been there forever, you know? And so it is, and as I think we all know, veterinary professionals are extremely emotional, right? We we make decisions every single day based on emotions. You know, I am more likely to purchase inventory items from a vendor that I trust and who I feel like has my best interest at heart, even though I know that they're just, you know, trying to up their numbers. Like I get that. I'm not dumb, but I'm still gonna make an emotional decision. So I think that when you try and turn a culture around, I do think it can be done. And I think it became, but it sometimes it's done in very small baby steps and can take literal years to do this. But part of that is saying, okay, you have to have a very inspiring leader. You have to have somebody that everybody trusts. And so you have to build that trust, which takes time. Then you have to sit there and say, okay, this is the road we're going to take, right? We're gonna, we are going to work on our culture, we're gonna change it, and this is the road that we're on. And everybody who wants to get on my bus is welcome to get on my bus. And you are gonna have some people who are like, screw your bus, I'm not getting on it. Okay, well, then I'm not gonna run you over with my bus, but maybe you need to liberate them to go elsewhere. That is a very difficult thing to do, especially if it's someone who start maybe was with the practice from the beginning and started it and they've been set in their ways. And, you know, your big key is anybody who says, well, this is how we've always done it. That is not someone who is open to change, right? That is not someone who's gonna be like, ooh, I'm gonna jump on the Deerfield vet clinic bus and, you know, they are like, this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and I don't want to do it. It is extremely difficult to let those people go when maybe they've been there for 15, 20 years, because the toxic ones, the negative ones are the ones that hang on the longest, right? It's kind of like, you know, the really nasty old chihuahua who bites everybody and has always been a little asshole, lives to be 21, but the really sweet lab dies it too of some bizarre cancer. You know, it's so in a practice, you're always gonna have those negative ones hang on the longest. Part of it is because they've made all those great ones leave, because the really great ones are like, I don't want to work with this person anymore. I'm gonna go find someplace else that brings me joy. So I think to turn an actual culture around is going to be very time-consuming, very frustrating, and very difficult. Can it be done? Absolutely. And even if it's just like, okay, how can I make it a little better than we were last month? And then a little better better than we were before that. And that just these small steps can make a huge difference and can help profitability and can help retention. But you have to have a practice manager who isn't afraid to hold people accountable, isn't afraid to be difficult, and can still be a trusted team member, not somebody that everybody's going, oh my God, if I piss her off, she's gonna fire me. Right. Like you don't want to be that practice manager. So it's a really strong balance and it takes a, I don't know, a different personality. But I have never, I would love to hear somebody who came up and said, Jenny, I turn my whole culture around thanks to your talk. I don't think it's ever gonna happen, but one can hope.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what movie you just described? What? What is a famous movie from the 80s where they bring in a highly compensated person to change the whole culture around? They had a really toxic culture, things weren't going right, so they they reach out to this guy that's uh and he comes in and he has to get rid of some of the toxic staff right in the beginning and he works on the floor. It's a little movie called Roadhouse. But if you remember, in Roadhouse, first thing he does, he observes the staff. Yeah, Patrick Swayze, my man. He observes the staff and cuts out the toxic people, the things not ready to do their way. He says it exactly what you said, my way or the highway, but he's on the floor with them, working with them. Again, I'm a big Patrick Swayze fan, but we might have to hire you as the cooler to go around to turn around these practices.
SPEAKER_02Didn't he rip someone's heart out in that movie? I feel like, oh, that's wrong. Now they did redo that. Jake Jillenhall redid it. And I can say I was very impressed with that. I was also very impressed with his physique, which was the main reason I watched it with my husband. But I would you're you were right. I don't, I don't recommend inciting violence, but yes, that is one way to look at it.
SPEAKER_00So there's there's two times that you can reinvent your culture kind of with systemic change when you acquire a practice. Yes. You give people a coming to Jesus talk, and you know, you're either with us or you're not with us. And we've seen it when people move into a new building where they treat it like it's a new practice and everything's gonna change, whether they may have changed their software, their equipment, their floor plan, their layout, their parking lot, everything's different. And they use that as a time to evaluate people's performance and whether they're gonna stick with them and be part of the culture and part that they're not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, those are two really good times, actually. And and but it's not to say that you can't work on it on a regular basis. Right. But you just have to have those meetings, make the time for it, be intentional, and make sure that your team's on board with it. And if they're not, I'm gonna tell you this there's you don't have to try to bang a square peg into a round hole. If it's not a good fit anymore, it's okay. And it's okay for both sides, right? Because if that person really doesn't fit in with your culture, they're pretty miserable too. So it's okay to just say, hey, this isn't. Working anymore. And we have had to do that. Like we have had to let go of people that just didn't fit in anymore. And it's hard and it's sad, but everything has a season, right? And some people are with you for a certain period of time and some people are with you forever. And so I think it's important to be able to say that when it comes to if you keep somebody or not, if you're going to really work on it. But if you have people who are fighting you, if you really are passionate about changing your culture, you can hear this is like I love, love this stuff. And I truly believe, I know, I know, because I've been so quiet, but I truly believe that this can make or break a practice. I mean, there are practices that do great that have toxic cultures. I worked at one of them. They were open from 1977 to 2009, 2010, somewhere in there. So I mean, it had a good run. It was always profitable. It had a lot of turnover. You know, it was not a place I stayed there for four years and that was plenty for me, you know, but I stayed there for four years and I managed to make it fun for myself. But that was not a place that I would have ever grown or had opportunities or anything like that. So I, it's not to say that you can have not every profitable clinic has a great culture. It doesn't even have a good culture. But if you're willing to be passionate about it and you have team members that are like, oh, hell no, then it might not work. If you are passionate about it as a practice manager or a team member and your practice owners aren't on board, leave. I did that, I will say, I tell that to people a lot at conferences. And I'm like, this, if the practice owner is the problem, if they're the ones that are like, I don't want to have anything to do with this, it will never get better because they're the ones who sign the paychecks. It's their money and they are allowed to make the decisions that they want to make. But I tell people all the time, I'm like, you are not gonna change this. If you have no control, you are not gonna change this. And so go find a practice or start your own. If you're VEP, you know, you can start your own and then and then you can build your c culture however you want it to be. Awesome.
SPEAKER_01So, Jenny, if someone wants to look for resources on how to build a better culture, I know there's a book that you guys love there, but was there any other resources that you recommend?
SPEAKER_02I wrote a chapter. Hang on, I'm grabbing it.
SPEAKER_00Did you just get your copy?
SPEAKER_02I did. So I wrote a chapter for this was edited by Dr. Peter Weinstein. It's the veterinary clinic small animal practice clinics review article. These are the books that we used to get that were blue, and now they're, but they're by Elsever. Anyways, there's a lot of good resources in here, but I did write a whole chapter on building a culture. I also think anything by Brene Brown as far as leadership, dare to lead, is I think it that's a great one to read with your leadership team. The energy bus, when I said everybody gets on our bus, we read that together as a team, and we all got on the bus and I gave everybody their bus ticket, and we wrote down what what we were gonna individually do to live in our values on each bus ticket, and then I laminated them. I mean, it was a whole thing. But that's a great way to kind of get everybody on board is to read a book like that together. Uh Simon Sinek, Leaders Eat Last. That's a great one. I don't know, Mark, do you have any?
SPEAKER_00I actually told you I like Simon Sinek now.
SPEAKER_02That's because he's amazing, right?
SPEAKER_00He is. I've I've come around. Okay, good. I'm so glad.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, anything that Simon Sinek writes, as far as I'm concerned, is great. And then if you're looking for like protocols and stuff like that, Dr. Peter Weinstein wrote a great book, The EMyth Veterinarian, that is a lot about systems and the need for them and how to kind of get that going. So that's a great one that's specific to the veterinary industry. Traction is another good one with regards to, you know, coming up with SOPs and making sure that everybody's kind of on the same page.
SPEAKER_01Mark If say, as you said, you can start at someone's buying a practice and they're in that at the beginning and they want to invest in their culture, but again, margins are tight. How can they start investing in that culture without breaking their books or any final advice on investing in any culture from the financial side?
SPEAKER_00I mean, you don't have to break the bank to invest in your culture. I mean, I think it's setting aside time to talk. You could have a meeting outside of work at somebody's house. You could have a cookout, something simple. Um, but devoting the time to it and having an agenda for what you're going to discuss instead of letting it be in a two-hour bitching session.
SPEAKER_02Right. You do have to control those. Radical Candor was the other book that is excellent as a for different styles of leadership communication and how to like when it's appropriate to use those. You know, like during COVID, I just had to say, this isn't up for conver conversation, this is what we're doing. That is not my normal leadership style, but you just have to make those decisions and say, okay, here's how it's going to go. This isn't up for discussion. We're doing it. And then there's other things where you can say, no, I would love your feedback. How do I take that? And there's different times for each one. So radical candor is really good for that.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Well, lots of good nuggets in this episode. Love talking about culture. I'm a big culture person myself, also a big roadhouse person myself, as I don't rip anyone's trachea out. Okay. Be nice until it's time not to be nice. But any uh Jenny or Mark, any upcoming speaking or anything that uh listeners can we'll see you at?
SPEAKER_02I am speaking. Let's see, my next one is July, AVMA in Anaheim. I will be there speaking and going to Disneyland with I listen, I had to be.
SPEAKER_00I know, I know. Points. Points. Points. It's a wonderful world.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And then I'm speaking at NAVC Hive East in August in North Carolina. And then I think, I'm hoping I will be speaking at another hive in Phoenix in October. So that's in the work. So those are my this year. Yeah, very excited. And that's all, hopefully, it's all about culture and team building, which I'm working with Amy Newfields, who is also in Massachusetts and does a lot. She wrote Oops, I became a manager, which is also a great book for anybody who maybe wasn't quite ready to be a manager and now is.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I'm speaking for Scratch next week. Scratch National Payment Mechanism Processor.
SPEAKER_01I was I thought you were saying you were here, you weren't speaking for that big of a fee, but I'm just saying. For scratch.
SPEAKER_02That was bad. Dad joke. No.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, thank you for everyone. And until we see you, have a great time investing in your culture. And remember, if you are going to see Jenny speak at any of these locations and you have turned your culture around, she will give you a prize. So go up and let her know and tell that story. So I will. Until next time. Bye bye, everyone. Thank you for listening to the Veterinary Survival Show. If you have any questions for Mark or want to learn more about how LGA supports veterinary practices, visit our website at lga.ca. Again, that's lga.ca.