Inside the Wired Pod Project: How 24 Women Raised $1 Million for Commercial Real Estate

In this inspiring episode of WIRED: Stories of Impactful Women, hosts Kimberly Downs and Heather Luce sit down with Katie Ramos—Kansas City native, commercial real estate agent, and partner at DLM Commercial. Katie shares her unique journey from working with the Kansas City Royals to finding her true calling in commercial real estate, laying down roots, and eventually becoming a business owner.

Listen as Katie reflects on her path to partnership, the power of mentorship, and the challenges of being a young woman in a competitive, commission-based industry. She offers invaluable advice on embracing growth, building resilience, and seizing opportunities, even when they're outside your comfort zone.

Katie also gives us a behind-the-scenes look at the "POD Project"—a collaborative, women-powered commercial real estate investment that brought together 24 female investors to raise nearly $1 million. Discover how a vision from a fellow WIRED leader turned into a thriving project, thanks to teamwork, tenacity, and a belief in the power of women supporting women.

Whether you're a seasoned professional, aspiring entrepreneur, or just love hearing stories of women breaking barriers, this episode offers connection, actionable insights, and a dose of Kansas City spirit. Plus, hear Katie’s top advice for women considering their own commercial property journey—and the importance of saying “yes” to showing up.

Don’t miss this episode packed with wisdom, mentorship, and authentic conversation about growth, grit, and the future of women in real estate and beyond.

Subscribe now and join the WIRED community—where bold, brilliant women shape the future, together.

Transcript

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Just remember, in every time you lose a deal or somebody fires you or whatever the case may be, like, use that as a growth opportunity and just say, what can I take away from this? What can I do to make myself 1% better tomorrow? It was quite the task that you guys raised as much equity as you did as quickly as you did. Takes a team, a village, a big pod. Yeah, right, right. Welcome to Wired Stories of Impactful Women podcast, where we spotlight bold, brilliant women sh the future of commercial real estate, business leadership and beyond. I'm Kimberly Downs. And I'm Heather Luce. We're the voices behind Wired. That's women in real estate development and your host for honest, empowering conversations that go way beyond buildings. Every other Wednesday, we sit down with women of influence, entrepreneurs, innovators, and change makers to share their stories, insights, and the unfiltered truth behind their success. So whether you're building a business, growing in your career, or carving your own path, you'll find connection, mentoring, mentorship, and real world tools right here. This is Wired Stories of Impactful Women podcast. Katie, welcome. Hello. How are you? I'm glad you're here. I'm thrilled to be here. Awesome. Good. Well, thanks for joining us. Real quick, you want to do a little intro of who you are, where you come from? Sure. Awesome. Katie Ramos. And I come from here. Born and bred Kansas City girl. I grew up in the. What we call the land of milk and honey, Johnson County. Don't hold it against me. And I went away for college for four years to a little town in Nebraska. And then I came back and I'm here to stay. Return to the land of milk and honey. Yeah. Put down some roots and built a business and you're here to stay. Yes., m'am So you're a commercial real estate agent. You're also a partner of DLM Commercial. Correct. So tell us, kind of what, after college, how did that get you there? What was your path and how did you become a partner of your company? Well, I graduated from college, moved back here, and I got a job with the Kansas city royals in 2015. Go, royals. So that was the year we won the World Series. That was super fun. And I thought that I wanted to go into the, you know, the. The sports production industry. That was the back end of professional sports, which was producing all of the things that happened besides the athletes playing the sport. And it was a. It was a great ride. I had a lot of fun. But I quickly realized that there wasn't going to be, like, a lot of autonomy in my life. And very much freedom. And so I started thinking about what do I want to do. I, you know, I was raised by an entrepreneur. I thought I probably want to work for myself. Don't really like being told what to do. So being my own boss was intriguing. And so then kind of just started talking to people. And then Allen Bishoff, who was one of the guys over at dlm, heard I was looking for a job, and he called me and he said, why don't you come to the dark side and do commercial real estate? And so he had me on the hook at that point. And I said, what is this? I was a fresh, 25. 24. 25. And so that's kind of how I got started into it. Very cool. Very cool. So you've been with the same company your entire career? Yep. So I started with dlm, Otto Westerfeld and Allen Bishoff. They kind of brought me in under their wing. They were awesome. I mean, you could, I couldn't have had better mentors. Right out the gate, guys that were just like, had a completely open door policy. If I wanted to go to a meeting, they'd take me. If I had questions or had like, hair brain ideas, I wasn't scared to share it with them. And so I was super grateful for that. But out the gate, you know, this was a, this was a question on the front end. How, how did I get to the point of ownership? I was fortunate enough, like I said, to be raised by an entrepreneur. And so when I went into this, my dad made it pretty clear. He said, go work for these guys and have fun. But know that the end goal is you either own some of it or you go own your own thing. Right? That's kind of how we do it in this house. And so out the gate, it was like, hey, this is my goal. I want to be totally transparent and honest about that. I want to stay here and I want to build a team, but at some point, I've got to have some ownership. And they were supportive of that? Yeah, they were. And I think a lot of it was because I just set the expectation and I was, I was empowered by other people to be able to do that. And so I'm grateful for it. And so now got to a place where I had the opportunity to. To buy in. And. And now Allen and I are our partners in dlm Commercial Real Estate Services and DLM Property Management. What does DLM stand for? Just because you never know who's listening. There may be people that don't know what that stands for. So what does that stand for? It's development, leasing, management. Okay, so nothing super sexy. Pretty practical. Yeah. And do you guys specialize in anything specifically or what do you prefer? What's your ideal client? Yeah. So historically we've done a lot of retail, whether it's on, you know, the acquisition side, tenant representation, management, we've done a lot of retail. The last couple of years we've actually done quite a bit of office, which is shocking to some folks because that, yeah, that sector of the market's been a little bit dryer. And then we, we. One of our big things though, this was kind of from the get that this was like a standard for us is we try really, really hard not to say no. So I mean, I've done deals with people that are, you know, they want 900 square feet and they want to lease it for six months. Like, well, I can't fill up my, my tank of gas with the commission on that one. But here we are. I really like you and I want you to be successful and so I'm going to help you. So those, you know, that's kind of one of those things that we've always tried really hard to meet people where they are and not have to say no. Yeah, absolutely. And it also, you never know who you're going to meet and you never know what opportunities are going to come from situations. So it just, I don't know, stretches your legs a little bit, but it also, you know, it helps to. And at the end of the day, we're all just people. Right. Like, we're all out here just doing our best, working hard. Yep. And so let's just band together and help each other out. So what would you say is one of your biggest challenges? I mean, we all know that you know where you are now, but if you had to look back on what was some of your biggest challenges, getting from the start to where, you know, from that 24, 25 year old learning, keeping your eye on the prize and then where you are now. Sure. I just want to make it abundantly clear I have not made it still grinding. This is about owning your, your power. I will tell you. Like it, it doesn't end right. I mean it's just like every day that whole, the whole mantra of like 1% better every day, let's all just try and be 1% better every single day. And then like that's a win. And so that's, that's my thought process. I have by no means made it, but gosh, Am I, you know, am I working towards it? And sometimes, you know, you have to take a step back because hindsight's 2020 to your question and go, well, gosh, I have, I have done a lot. I've overcome. You made it to where you are today. Yeah. Yeah. And so I would say, you know, there's. There's this common phrase and kind of ideal that it's tougher to be a young woman in commercial real estate. I remember when I first got started, I went to a meeting once with Otto and someone was like, oh, are you here with your dad? No, I'm a. I'm a broker on this deal. Yeah. You know what? Come on, guys. So it's, It's. That was definitely harder in the beginning, you know, so coming through those. And walking through those challenges of just knowing how to hold yourself a. In those scenarios when, when somebody maybe says something or treats you a way that you're going. I don't, I don't think you treat everybody else like that, but learning how to, to stay poised and then just take it all in stride, I think is important. So, yeah, I. That's definitely, definitely been a challenge. And then Heather knows this, but, like, we're in an eat what you kill industry. So, like, when you're totally commission based, there are seasons of time that you're like, why am I doing this? Oh, yeah, I just had six deals fall apart or, you know, whatever the case may be. And so being able to, like, grapple through that successfully helps you, I think, with your longevity and stick with it in the long run. And I, I'm very, very fortunate that I, I was. I got married at 23, you know, so my husband and I have been married since we were babies. It feels like 20. I look back, 23, we had no idea what we were doing. We've, we. And he's always had a very consistent income, and we just were able to rely on that and live off of that so that I could spend the time building my career. Awesome. Thanks, Trev. Appreciate you Shout out. Yeah, exactly. It's all about. But it's all about how we handle those challenges. Right. And who we have in our corner helping us get there. So shifting gears just a little bit. So talking about Wired, your role with Wired, you've been a member. How long have you been part of it or how did. What brought you to it? I guess. Yeah. I can't remember who invited me to Wired in the beginning, but somebody told me about it when I first got into the industry-ish. I bet I went to my first coffee in like 2018 maybe. So it might have been REDI because you and I went through the real estate Diversity initiative program together through uli. That's where I think I might have originally heard about Wired . Girl, I invited you to WIRED You were already a part of it. It was. Because it was around the same time. It was around the same time, but I couldn't remember if you were actually a part of it or if you were also getting into it like I was. Yeah, yeah. No, I. I was already in it and I've been in it, but kind of like on and off as time allowed, you know, And I, I've got young kids and we've all, you know, it's like you've got that cycle of stuff and all those seasons, but. Yes. And so then I started after the REDI program with the uli, I think is kind of when I thought man, I got to dig into Wired a little bit more. So I started showing up for stuff more. I remember you were the voice for me that said, you know, you don't have to be a commercial real estate agent for this group. It can be anybody wants to be a developer or investor or, you know, own commercial. So I think I remember you being that voice of saying, you should just come check it out, you know, which is good. We all, I mean, we all needed that. And it can be intimidating when you're not sure and like, where do I fit in? And all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, you just gotta, like, you gotta take it for a test drive. Right. So moving forward all these years later, you obviously got more involved and now you're the investment chair on the board, right? Yes, ma'. Am. Yeah. So tell us about that and kind of what does that role entail for you? That is a really. Has been a really fun experience so far. So this is my first year doing it. 2025, somebody nominated me, which I think is more of just like a volun told type deal. No, I'd say you're. You're pretty qualified for the role. I total. It was awesome when someone said, hey, do you want to do this? And I'm like, yes, because I love to learn, you know, And I felt like it was an opportunity for me to continue to grow in. In certain areas that I identified that I, that I was good at. And then there were other areas that I thought, oh, I could, I could use some strengthening there. So as the. As far as the investment chair goes, really, my role is kind of like a, a first stop for anyone that's in Wired that has an investment opportunity that they want to pitch to the group, right? So if you're driving down the road and you're like, hey, that building, it's got, you know, it's looks like it's been neglected and nobody's given it any love for a while. I wonder what would happen if we. We went and we bought it and we filled it up. And then you call me and you're like, hey, Katie, this is what I'm thinking. And I would. I'd shoot back to you, Heather. I'd be like, that sounds awesome. Here's like, a list of questions to ask yourself. And here's a pro forma, like, template. Use this. Go, go answer some of these questions. Come back to me. Let's walk through it. And then if we think it has legs, then we'll refine it and we'll dig more into it and we'll get it to a place where we can take it to the entire group and start putting a pitch together. Yep, absolutely. So recently one of those was the POD project. Tell us all about that project and how it came about. Yes. So the Queen. Yeah, Sheryl Vickers. You know, Sheryl cast. I tell everybody this. Sheryl can cast a vision a thousand miles. So, like, if you need somebody help you, if you can see it in your head, but you can't figure out quite how to cast it, I would say, call Sheryl, but she'll kill me. Because then she'll be like, everyone's calling me Katie. Stop telling people to call me. But I would say, you know, she can cast a vision. So she called myself and she called Heather and she said, hey, I found this building. And I think that there's some. I've got some interest in it, and here's some of my thoughts and so on and so forth. Will you guys meet me at the building? And. And so she essentially did what you're saying. She brought it to the investment chair. She's not like the prime student. Yeah, you know Sheryl, you know, she's the reason we have steps in place, You know. she's our wild hair. But that's why we like her. And she gets deals done, and I tell people that all the time. So. So I said, yeah, let's go look at it. And so we went and we looked at it and we walked it with the broker who was listing it. And. And I said, wow, you really want to. You want to shoot for the stars on this one? And she's like, I think. I think it's attainable. And so we started talk about it. We started talking about the nitty gritty and all the fun little details and drilling down and. And, you know, coming there, they were. They're still on the Prairie Village project, but they were like kind of coming off of it. And so I think there was like a lot of really fresh experience from that one that they. That Sheryl and Heather both felt like that they could, you know, kind of bring over to this one to make it even more refined. Yeah, for sure. So once we, you know, you decided that it is a good project to present to the group, let's start pitching it. What were the first steps of getting as many people on board? Because it was quite the task that you guys raised as much equity as you did as quickly as you did. And so I'm curious, kind of how that process came about and like, did you expect. I don't know. I don't want to say did you think you could do it? But it was a tall task, like you said, and you did it. And so I'm very curious from your perspective of what that was like, kind of going through that about this is what we're going to have to do, and then you start doing it, and then this is what we did, you know. Sure. No, I. Out the gate, I was like, this is a tall order. This is office. People are kind of like, not sure. Some folks are shying away. Some people are running towards it. So, yeah, it was definitely out the gate. It was like, this is going to be a big one. So the. I'm going to back it up. One of the questions that you asked in there was, what's one of the first things? It's the proforma, because it's all about numbers, right? It's gotta stinking pencil. And it's got a pencil, theoretically, it's got a pencil if everything goes wrong or if 20% of things go wrong, if, you know, 42% of things go this way. And so it was a lot of just like going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth on that, and then just refining that as best we can. But if you ever heard it, heard me give a pitch, you know what. What's my thing about pro formas? Every pro forma is wrong, right? Because they're all liable to change, right? So you do the best you can to make as many projections as you can, but they're all going to have. Have something in them that changes. And so as they change and they flow, we change and we flow with them. And so it's like, I don't know. I kind of look at a proforma as a living, breathing document and that we're like, we're working. It's like one of our teammates. Yeah. It moves along through the process with you. It's a silent teammate that you've got that's always like in the back of your head. And so I think getting that done and getting, and at least getting that to a place where it's presentable and it, it paints the picture clear enough as far as the dollars and cents and then you build everything else around that. Getting into the numbers, what did you know you had to do for this to be a successful group investment? Sure. So I think one big thing was a heavy due diligence. Right. If you're going to go out and ask a, a bunch of people for money for a project, you better have your stuff in order. And so I think one of the smartest things that this group did was out the gate, create a sponsorship team. And so there's four of us that were kind of leading the charge. And I don't take credit for that. That was Sheryl and Heather kind of recognizing that from the Prairie Village project. And one of the best things we did is we had an attorney join our team right out the gate. Having Danielle Wallace on is huge. I mean. Yeah, game changer, right? And so it was Sheryl, myself, Heather and Danielle. And then so the four of us basically just teamed up and we, we ran after this thing as hard as we could. We turned over every stone we could possibly think of during that due diligence and inspection period. And we asked as many questions as we could. And you know, you're, you get to that point where you're starting to get almost self conscious of am I, am I being obnoxious? Yeah. And then you're like, wait a second. It'S a lot of money. Really darn obnoxious. I can't quit on this until I feel like peace and I can sleep at night and I can go. There was no stone unturned. Let's move forward with it. And that's what we did. And I mean, it took a lot of time and a lot of energy. And so you have to, as you go into these types of things, really be willing to, to set that apart within whatever your already daily life frame looks like is to be able to, to work in some extra time. Yeah. That's what I always think about is everybody has full time jobs. You know, this is on top of what we're already Hustling on every day, and everybody's mom's in that group, and everybody's, you know, got, like, responsibilities outside of the project. But you do it because it's a good opportunity. And you see, like, again, the ownership, in the end, the equity you're building, like, it just. You see the opportunity there. Let's talk about how many women did you get successfully to get in on this, to make it the group? And then how long was the time frame from the time you started doing your pitches to the time you closed on the property? We have 24 total investors. Awesome. All are females, which is pretty cool. Yeah, it's awesome. And we started, like, pursuing this project right at the beginning of March. Okay. And then we closed July 10th. Nice. And how much money did you raise? Do you mind me ask? We raised, right, at a million bucks. Just a little bit shy. from 24 wired women and investors who. Some of them don't have any ownership in any other commercial real estate. Is that right? Yeah, there's a handful that this is their first commercial real estate project. That's incredible. And so for those people, one, just to be a part of it, but two, to get to learn from this group of people. I'm in on a couple of the other group investments with Wired, and to get to learn from these developers up close and be in partnership with them is such, like, a unique experience I probably would never find elsewhere, but I just think it's insane. Like, that's a million dollars in that short of time. And how is the project going? Like, where. So you've been. You've had it for a little while. Where are you guys at now? And kind of what is also one thing we didn't talk about is the future of it. What do you imag imagine this to be? Why do you call it the POD project? Yeah, so. Oh, man. We could be. I could do a whole dissertation on this building at this point in time. So it feels like. So the POD project, the. The history of it, it was built in 1969. It's at 6330 Lamar. And it was built by TWA. The campus was the Breech Academy. And so it was where all of the stewardesses that got hired by twa, all around the country, they sent them to this campus, and they lived there for, like, six to eight weeks. And that's where they did all their training camp back in the day when the training was like, they had to wear stilettos and they had to, you know, use, like, real China with coffee and the Coffee cup would be on the saucer and it had the coffee in it. And then they had to practice walking down a flight of stairs in their heels. Pencil skirt. pencil skirt. whole thing Yeah. So wild. And so the, the building that we bought was one of the dormitories and they had like, we found. We've dug up some old pictures that we're hoping to kind of put on display in the building. But they had these like sunken living rooms and each one of the dormitories. Each one of the, Each one of the dormitories or each one of the pods was a different country theme. So there was like Africa, Asia and they, you know, had the decor to match it and that kind of stuff. And so the reason we call it the Pod project is because there's essentially five different offshoots and they look kind of like pods. Yeah. From like an aerial view from an aerial view You can see them. And so that's why we've been calling it the pod Project. That's awesome. And what do you imagine? What kind of tenants do you imagine being in there or do you have anybody pre leased or anything like that? Yeah, so we've got, we've got one lease that we're working on drafting right now. Just general office use. We've showed it to kind of a myriad of different types of uses. General office use. And then we've had like a little bit of interest from a CPA and an attorney real estate company. We've showed it to a title group, got a construction group that one that needs a new home office. We're showing it to next week. We've also shown it to some health and wellness folks because we've got this one really cool, cool space that is like, it's an atrium space. So we had one group look at that that thought maybe they would. Great lighting and design. Yeah. And there's gosh, probably six or seven. Well, what are they called when there's a window in the roof? Skylight. S kylight. Thank you. There you go. Ding, ding, ding. Gold star for Kim. So yeah. So there. So it's just a really unique spot. The really cool. One of the cool parts about this, this particular campus is the building just to the east of us has a coffee shop in it, which is pretty uncommon for office campuses. Office buildings. But we've got that just across the way, there's a pond and then a building over there that's within walking distance. There's a restaurant. We've got a walking. Yeah. Green space. Tons of green space. We've got an area that we're hoping to turn into a bit of a Zen garden, quiet zone that's on our property. It's. It's uniquely positioned, but not so unique that it's necessarily funky. Right. You know, because sometimes funky can be hard. But it's unique in the way of that. That I think you could really find a lot of. A lot of different types of uses that would enjoy the The project. It just also offers a lot of amenities for your tenants, which I think is great. To have a coffee shop right there is just incredible. It's conveniently located for, you know, for our metro area. You can. Yeah, it's pretty central. You can get to I35 or 435 pretty quickly from there. Jumped onto the plaza. Yeah. So there's. There's a lot of opportunity, so we're. We're showing it right now. There's still quite a bit of work to do, but there's some spaces in the building that we could potentially lease out. You know, deliver October 1st to the right type of tenant, and then tentatively January 1st for everybody. Cool. Love that. So how can we support the project right now or moving forward? Yeah. So I think in the coming months, we'll probably have some open houses. You guys are obviously welcome to come to that and invite everybody you know, and then anyone you know of that's looking for office space that's in that Overland park area, we'd be happy to show it to them. And like I said, we've got some health and wellness folks that have looked at it. There's one spot that I think would actually be a really great dental office. You could have direct access to your space. There's. There's some options to do that. So we're working on what those packages would look like. So I think just getting the word out there and letting people know about it and that there's like a really cool group of people that just bought this building. Yeah. And, you know, women landlords is always a bonus. There you go. So also, I mean, what advice do. You have for women that are looking. To grow or just even make their first commercial purchase? Learn about it. The proforma you you met mentioned, you know, different things like that where some people are probably like, oh, my goodness, that's foreign language to me. What does that look like? I know I mentioned in past podcasts, that was one of the things you guys talked in and wired one day, and I was like, okay, I don't. I. I do residential all day long, and I can tell you all of those Words and what they mean. But when you mentioned that, I was like, what is that? And Sheryl talking about how she just, you know, held somebody's hand and taught them what it was and because I think we think we have to know all of that or research it ahead of time. So what would be your advice to women that want to make their first purchase or even just want to look into what does that look like? Sure. My. Well, my first response is come to wire. Yes. Come to Wired coffee or happy hour, always. It's a great starting, starting spot. And if you don't know anyone, come find me or Heather or Kim and we'll, we'll be your friend. And then on top of that, I think one of the biggest things that's made me successful to this point is mentorship. So, so find a mentor. And sometimes that is uncomfortable because what it looks like for a lot of folks is they have to go ask. Like as a mentee, you have to go ask and say, I need a mentor. I need somebody that I can call and ask what I feel like the stupid questions are to, but not feel insecure about it. Right. So I, I just, and it's hard because sometimes people have a really hard time doing that. Not every, not every personality is inclined to be that, as that assertive. But I would say if you really want this, muster up the courage as best you can and go find a mentor that'll be open and honest with you and, and help you walk through all of this. Because that's what got me here. There's a lot of women, I think that not just in commercial real estate, but that have started a small business or are wanting to be an entrepreneur and start things on their own. What would be one thing that you would tell a young 23, 24 year old girl that says, like, we've had in the group this coffee last month and we were like, I think we had three or four and they're like, I'm 21 and I just don't know what it's about. You know, what would you, what piece of advice would you give them besides having a mentor to just say go for it or keep your eye on the prize? Like what would you say? I would say put yourself out there. So even if it feels like uncomfortable to go in the room, like go in the room because there's a lot of growth opportunity there, you know, keep a growth mindset of every time you get beat down. Just remember in every time you lose a deal or somebody fires you or whatever the Case may be like, use that as a growth opportunity and just say, what can I take away from this? What can I do to make myself. Myself 1% better tomorrow? And then put yourself back in the fire and. And continue to assert yourself. You know, I kind of alluded it to it in the beginning, but, like, set expectations. Be honest about what it is that you want with folks. I've been told that I'm pushy or that I'm, like, aggressive. I've also been told that I'm diplomatic and assertive. So it's all about how you frame it. Right. And so I. I try really hard to treat people with kindness. I want to, and I want to be honest, but I also want to be super clear with people about who I am and who I am as somebody that. That. That wants to just get out there and get it done and just keep supporting other people, no matter what they look like or how they think or anything like that. You know, my goal is, let's all try and be successful together. Right. It takes a team, a village, a big pod. Yeah. Right, Right. Well, you're. You're just a strong woman and you know what you want. And I think that, that, that's such a great piece of advice in life, but also just in business, like, you don't know unless you ask. Right. And if you do know and you. You know what you want, you have to put it out there because nobody's going to read your mind and nobody's going to just give it to you. You have to put it out there. So I have always admired you, Katie, and I love that we are friends, and I love that we're connected in so many different ways, and I'm really grateful that you joined us today. Is there anything else you want to plug or anything coming up? Fun in your life? Life or anything? I'm going to Italy next week, and I'm. I am going to say I am. You guys, the first podcast you did, you talked about taking care of yourself and all that kind of stuff. I am going on a true vacation, which means my laptop is staying at home. The first time I can remember doing that very long time. I don't think they have wi fi in Italy. I don't think that's a thing. Yeah, I'm like, wait a minute, I was just there. They do. But it was the first trip that I took and took no laptop. Yeah. Last year. And it was amazing,. guys, I leave my laptop home so quick. It's also a little embarrassing. Like, the most exciting part about my trip right now is that I'm not taking my laptop. It's like, all right, I need a little more balance in my life. I haven't been to Italy. I've been to a lot of places. But I hear that you will have a lot more things that are more exciting than that when you get back to tell us about. So have some pasta. Have some bread for us. Absolutely, yeah. Thanks again for being on the podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to Wired, where Kansas City ideas come to life. We hope you left today with something useful, something you can act on, share or carry forward. And make sure you check out our next episode, which features Cheryl Hartell and Jenny Vergara. They are women leaders in the culinary world and also Wired leadership as well. Subscribe to the show so you don't miss what's next. And if this conversation matters to you, chances are it'll matter to someone else, too. We will catch you here right on Wired.