A/B Conversations: CFP® Your Way Out Of It – Real Advice on Building Wealth & Retirement Planning

Ep #137 - When Work Doesn’t Work: Can You Afford a Change?

• Benjamin Haas I Haas Financial Group

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What’s the point of having money if we are unhappy and unfulfilled? While earning money and saving is a necessary part of building wealth, there are times where the earning comes at a significant cost. Jobs can be stressful, cause anxiety, or take physical or emotional tolls on us. When you find yourself dreading work you might ask yourself, “Can I afford to leave or make a change?” What situations make a big change possible, or not possible? Listen in as Adam and Ben discuss both the financial and life considerations and how they try to help clients through these big questions.


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Investment advice offered through Great Valley Advisor Group, a Registered Investment Advisor. Great Valley Advisor Group and Haas Financial Group are separate entities. This is not intended to be used as tax or legal advice. Please consult a tax or legal professional for specific information and advice.

[00:00:00] Adam Werner: Hi everyone, and welcome to AB Conversations, where we will help you CFP your way out of it. A podcast where you get into the minds of a couple certified financial planners on how we think and feel about everyday financial planning questions, and what should really matter most to you. A healthier financial life starts now.

Hello there, Ben. How are you?

[00:00:31] Ben Haas: Better than the Phillies. How about you?

[00:00:35] Adam Werner: They're okay.

[00:00:35] Ben Haas: They stink. Frustrating right now. Very frustrating.

[00:00:41] Adam Werner: I've watched some games. They, yeah, they could be doing better.

[00:00:46] Ben Haas: That's all right. It's just April.

[00:00:48] Adam Werner: I was gonna say it's early. It's a whole lot of games left.

[00:00:51] Ben Haas: But losing three straight to the Mets, like that's the gut punch.

Like it could be anybody but the Mets. Anyway, that's not why we're here today.

[00:00:58] Adam Werner: No. Not here to complain about New York sports teams beating the Philadelphia sports teams, but in the theme of it stinks to watch the Phillies right now. I'll say we'll lead into the topic of the podcast today is, we've been hearing from some people, or at least in the past, maybe some recently too, that, yeah, the idea around my job stinks, or my job sucks right now.

Can I afford to do something different? So that's more around, we'll say the people that aren't quite at retirement yet, 'cause usually that decision, if someone's feeling that way and they're on the cusp of retirement, then it can often just be, should I just retire?

[00:01:40] Ben Haas: Right? Yeah.

[00:01:41] Adam Werner: This is more, I'm further away, or maybe even just younger in general, and with all of the recent changes in the world, right? AI potentially coming to maybe replace some people's jobs, maybe not feeling as confident that those jobs are gonna be around in a handful of years because of technology or all of the changes in government right now with scaling back government employment, people's jobs may be at risk or just worried in general about the economy.

The thought process here being, if I don't feel supremely confident that my job is gonna be around, or I just don't feel great about the current job that I'm doing, what are my opportunities to go explore something different? And I guess this is more around the realm of if that involved some sort of pay cut, right?

Yeah. Right, or change in benefits. I'll say a downgrade financially, but hopefully will be an upgrade, on the life side of things.

[00:02:44] Ben Haas: Right? Because that's a key component here, and I hope there's not this huge audience out there that's not having this conversation with financial planners because they recognize that, you know, the life considerations is maybe something their financial planner doesn't normally talk about.

Well, we do. I mean, I think there's a growing community of us that kind of recognize that there's something beyond just building wealth, right? That the role here is to help clients find fulfillment, however they define that, right? If it's engagement, relationships, having meaning or purpose, accomplishment, whatever it is for them, like we need to help align them to that, and if their work's not serving them, then let's have that conversation, right?

There are financial considerations, but like, we've seen it in clients before. To make all this money, but feel completely burned out to not be happy. Like that's not serving anybody to save up all this money and then die unhappy, like that's not serving anybody. So I guess just to open it, like these life considerations are important, let's like frame the conversation with them around, you know, here's, if you're fearful of making this change and some of that is financial, let's maybe put all of that in context and just have an open conversation.

[00:03:55] Adam Werner: Yeah, 'cause even something as simple as, like you just said the financial considerations, I think is what, what drives a lot of the decision making for people, even if they know this job is not good for me emotionally, mentally, physically, right?

But it pays the bills. So I'll suck it up.

Yep. I'm gonna just yep. Gotta deal. I'm gonna eat it. Yep. Yeah.

[00:04:16] Ben Haas: I've been with the company for 20 years, like, what's another 20?

[00:04:20] Adam Werner: Right. But as we know, and we've, and we'll throw out some client examples. Sometimes it's just from the client perspective, it's just the blind spot of if I pull this lever, then what are the other considerations.

Like what are the other dominoes? If I choose this one thing financially, but I don't even wanna pull that lever because it's the unknown and I don't even want to risk making a mistake or having somebody hopefully like us, a planner, that will have these conversations. Even if it's just exploring what's possible trying to find out how much do they really need to make in order to afford the life that they would like to live.

And you said it very well, it's making sure that these things align. That I'll say for who? For what? Right. The employment should lead to something. The income should lead to something and not just an accumulation of dollars. That's a great byproduct. But then what are those dollars intended to do? So if we're able to just help connect some of those dots and get people to a point where they can feel confident making that decision then yes, have this conversation.

But I guess going back to my original thought there is, I think just that fear of the unknown is what often just leads people to, I'm not, I'm just not gonna do anything. I'm just not gonna change anything because the devil I know is better than the devil I don't.

[00:05:49] Ben Haas: Well then let's lean into that a little bit because I think one of, one of the first things that we would wanna do in assessing that with somebody, like take all the conversation out of it.

If you and I were just looking on paper like, Hey, can somebody afford to do this? The through line for a lot of clients of ours that have successfully done this has been just good saving habits. And I, for sure I think it's important to define what we mean by that. There's money that gets thrown into these retirement accounts, right?

You've got the company match. It's always good for us to encourage that they do that. Financial planning 1 0 1 is have some sort of cash reserve and then, you know, when you have a cash reserve, it's okay to invest outside of retirement

too. And I think for people that have lived within their means and now are faced with either, again maybe it's a layoff or maybe it is, as you said, my job stinks and I just wanna make a change.

Yeah. It becomes a lot easier for us to encourage them and say like, you know, what's the worst thing that can happen here? If you needed more income, you can rely on this degree of savings to help you through a period of time, even if it's just a transition, right? Yeah. I'm gonna leave one job, I'm gonna try to make ends meet.

I'm still benefiting from not working in that job emotionally to prepare myself for doing the next thing. So, having some sort of savings, and I'll say in addition to just the, you know, the typical cash reserve that we talk about that is accessible. Yeah. That's real key here.

Very key.

[00:07:14] Adam Werner: Yeah. It really is. And that is one of the common themes or the common threads among our clients who have, maybe gone through this transition for themselves is they had good habits and they had, they started those good habits earlier in life, which for people that maybe aren't in that position, it's kind of hard to say, oh you just need to like, invent a time machine and go back and like re restart those habits.

But it's the reality of the situation, right? And this is why we preach to younger clients. Building those good habits on the front end will only serve you in the future because in our world, flexibility is key for many of these types of scenarios, these types of, well, what if I did this? Just having, like you said, having the non-retirement savings beyond just your, you know, emergency reserve your cash cushion gives a lot of that flexibility later in life.

I'll throw out the client example, was an executive for a retailer, was stressful, didn't love it. Needed to get out. And now is in a very blue collar job from a very white collar job to a very blue collar job. I'm out driving truck and I'm fine.

Huge pay cut, but the habits were there was a great saver in and outside of retirement plans. Lived well within their means, did a lot of the building blocks to success, and that gave them the flexibility to make that big decision to take a large decrease in pay. Yeah. Just build, building those habits early I think is a key component to that flexibility and being able to do what you want to do later.

[00:09:05] Ben Haas: And there was clarity on what they needed, like, and that's an important element here too, like how can we help? We talk about they,

they've built these buffers or they have these savings that they could rely on, right? That parachute cord that, hey, now this income isn't doing enough. But in multiple examples here, I'm thinking of another woman we've probably mentioned to her in other podcasts too, because she's like the poster child for this, but it was clear on what she really needed to live as opposed to what she also wanted, or what was on the wishlist, right?

If where was earning here and spending here, it was a very okay trade off for her to kind of maybe scale back some of the spending until she felt comfortable earning less money, right? So there was clarity on what can I afford to make, to save, to spend, and even if it was a whole new situation.

That's gotta be our role. We gotta help people understand if you're gonna make this change, like let's not just have fear of the unknown, let's assess it all, and then you can figure out if you're comfortable making certain trade-offs or not.

[00:10:05] Adam Werner: Yeah, and I think one of, one of the biggest driving factors I believe in addition to just, what's the income, right? What am I bringing in from this job? But it's a lot of, I shouldn't say a lot, most people's benefits are tied to that employment. So if I'm going to do something different, and maybe the healthcare coverage is wildly different, or maybe I'm gonna make the move from being an employee and I'm gonna branch out on my own, and now I gotta go cover that myself.

[00:10:34] Ben Haas: Oh, it's a whole nother element here. Yeah.

[00:10:35] Adam Werner: Yeah. But just the idea of looking at somebody's total picture when it comes to the, I'll say their total compensation package. Benefits are certainly a part of that. So even if it is a step back in terms of pay, maybe the benefits aren't, or maybe it's a step back in benefits, but it's not a step back and pay, just being able to help walk somebody through.

Again, just those potential trade offs or, if you make this change, here are the ways that we can fill that gap. Right? And that's where maybe some of that non-retirement savings can kick in to say, well, great, we're gonna turn off dividend reinvestment in this account.

And anything that gets generated, that's what's gonna help pay your health insurance premium to make this transition. Not saying it's gonna work for everybody, but that's just an example of some of those levers that can be pulled.

[00:11:31] Ben Haas: I'm glad you brought up the benefits because I wonder how often outside of, you know, a comprehensive financial planning and relationship that really looks at things on an annual basis.

We're probably guilty of not doing this one all the time that I'm about to bring up, but, you know, you get so ingrained if, let's assume husband and wife here, if they've been working in the same jobs for a while, like maybe those important benefits elections were made years ago, but now somebody in the scenario we're bringing up here maybe feels like they really need to make a switch.

Well, yeah, this is a great opportunity to re-familiarize yourself with, okay, if you're gonna lose benefits over here, but you can jump on over here, like what's the net loss here? Like again, explore it. Let's do that. Let's build these different scenarios out so we can say, if I do X, then how are we handling the savings over here?

How are we handling the benefits here? What are we conceding on timeline for retirement? What does that mean for, you know, what we had allocated over here for the kids? I don't know. I'm making up scenarios like there are dominoes. I get it. Yeah, we need to address those dominoes with facts and figures and what the options are.

Not, I don't, I just don't want somebody to sit idle in the anxiety or fear that if I make this change, I'm going to fail.

[00:12:40] Adam Werner: That's it. And I think that's our point here, right? Is that we just don't want anybody who's maybe having these thoughts or even considering exploring the possibility to be in that spot where it's the unknown, it's the uncertainty.

And again, path of least resistances. I'm not even gonna explore that. I'm not gonna poke the bear. I'm just gonna continue doing what I'm doing. But we've seen it. Again, we've shared some examples and there's more that we could share that maybe that gap between what is currently happening and even if it is a step back financially, being able to maybe help quantify that gap can be enough to just put somebody over the edge to say, okay, I can make this decision. And sometimes that gap may be too large and we get to the end of that process. Maybe it doesn't fit. Maybe they can't make that shift. But in that, if that's the worst outcome in that scenario, at least you explored it.

Now you have maybe a better idea of what's feasible and what's possible, and you can now take that to the next step and maybe adapt what could have worked or what you are looking for moving forward.

[00:13:55] Ben Haas: It brings awareness to your own financial situation, but it also like, like we can reverse engineer this and say, all right, if I'm stepping away from this what would I need to do elsewhere to what am I looking for?

Right. And you started with this, the economy's changing how people get compensated are changing, like knowledge is worth something and there's that the old like, I'm so gonna butcher this word 'cause it's Japanese word. It's, I think it's, ikigai. I don't know, I'm gonna sound so naive, but it's the whole philosophy of like, reason for being, what am I good at?

What do I enjoy? What does the world need and what can I get paid to do? And where those four things come together. That's a reason for being, that's like happiness contentment, right? I love your example there of you can almost reverse engineer in the same way that we do some retirement planning to go.

You gotta get outta this job. What do I need to go make part-time money to transition into retirement? It could be the same formula here. I know I'm earning this, I don't want to be in this job. What am I good at? What do I enjoy? What does the world need? What can I get paid for? Okay, here's what I need to make to fill this gap where the concessions on income over here, ah, that's vastly covered by, I'm just a happier person.

I'm more engaged with my work, my relationships are better. Like all of that is a net positive result.

[00:15:15] Adam Werner: Yeah. Yeah. And that, I mean, everything you just kind of laid out there goes back to that one client scenario that you said we've probably thrown out on many different podcasts. But that was her situation.

She went from a job that I think was very stressful. She wasn't fulfilled in, she made the choice through a lot of planning to get into a role that certainly paid her less but came with the upside of she's helping in her community now. She gets the fulfillment and the, all of the positive, positivity of making an impact at a local level that she did not have in her other role.

That again, assuming we can align things on the front end and do the right planning to help somebody make that decision, I think she is, maybe we need to bring her on, but I think she would tell us, and anybody listening, I would venture to guess she would not have made a different decision with 2020 hindsight now, a few years later. Yeah. She would do it every day of the week.

[00:16:19] Ben Haas: Yeah. So, so maybe I'll tease the next podcast that we have not yet talked about doing, but I, it's, maybe this is full circle back to how we could have started this. The concept here when we think about money is just what is enough? Yeah, what is enough for you individually, whether that's earning it or having it saved in order to serve you in retirement.

Everybody's enough is gonna be different and it's gonna be relative to them, but that can't be independent of what just makes you happy, having positive emotion. So thank you for engaging in this one. If you're out there and you're listening to this and you feel like, Hey, this resonates like, I'm not loving my job and I'm wondering what's possible, talk to somebody.

[00:17:00] Adam Werner: Yeah, for sure. Yep.

[00:17:03] Ben Haas: All right, go Phils. Let's hope they win a game by the next time we have the podcast.

[00:17:09] Adam Werner: That's how we start every podcast. Now here's our biweekly Phillies update.

[00:17:13] Ben Haas: They're 13 and 12. It's just not great. Alright. Thank you pal.

[00:17:17] Adam Werner: See ya.

[00:17:18] Ben Haas: Till next time.

[00:17:25] Bem Haas: Hey everyone, Adam and I really appreciate you tuning in. Please note that the opinions we voiced in the show are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific recommendations for any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be most appropriate for you, consult with your attorney, your accountant, and financial advisor, or tax advisor prior to making any decisions or investing. Thanks for listening.

Investment Advice offered through Great Valley Advisor Group, a Registered Investment Advisor. Great Valley Advisor Group and Haas Financial Group are separate entities. This is not intended to be used as tax or legal advice. Please consult a tax or legal professional for specific information and advice.