Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?
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Johnathan Arnold and David Fry discuss "the gospel of the kingdom" (Mt. 4:23). Topics discussed include:
- The gospel
- The kingdom
- Dominion, reign
- The image of God
- Dwelling
- Exile
- Hell
- The kingdom and the church
- The Great Commission
- Heaven and earth
- The millennial kingdom
The first reference to kingdom comes in the very creation of Adam and Eve, and key concept of humanity having dominion.
SPEAKER_01The second Adam, who gained dominion by his cross and resurrection, you know, has begun to exercise that now through his people, the church. You know, hey, if there's somebody listening to this and you have not bowed your knees to King Jesus, do it right now.
SPEAKER_00You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_01So I think our first ever podcast together was titled Happy Anticipation of Heaven on Earth. And that was the start of uh co-hosting the podcast together. And in that podcast, which we recently reposted, um, we discussed the way in which Christ, as the second Adam, subdues the earth, um, so that in the new heavens and the new earth, creation is renewed, and Adam's creation mandate to have dominion is fulfilled. And so Jesus doesn't take us back to Eden, but he takes us forward to a creation fully subdued, something that Adam never saw. And so this gets us right to the heart of what we call the gospel of the kingdom, the good news of the kingdom. And I've been thinking for some time about how, as evangelicals, you know, literally gospel people, um, our gospel seems to say very little to nothing about the kingdom. We kind of give the Romans road approach to sharing the gospel, which isn't bad. I mean, it's not a bad way to share the gospel. The gospel is so so big and so great and so glorious. Uh and certainly, you know, forgiveness through the substitutionary atonement of Jesus is is right there at the heart of it. Um, but we need to make sure that our gospel isn't um too small, you know, that that we're not missing out on the depths and the riches uh of our gospel. And I think that recentering the kingdom is a really important part of having a more um, you know, balanced and and holistic picture of what God is actually doing in the world through Jesus Christ. So that's what I'd love to talk about today is is the gospel of the kingdom. And what does the kingdom have to do with the gospel that we preach as evangelical Christians?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the first reference to kingdom concept, of course, comes in the very creation of Adam and Eve, right? In Genesis chapter one, and this key concept of humanity having dominion over the earth, over the sea, over the birds of the heavens, over the earth, over everything, all other creatures. And of course, we find right there in the next in chapter three, I guess, that uh humanity does not carry out that mandate well. And in fact, uh Adam attempts to exercise oversight and care uh for himself uh on his own terms. And so we are living in a world in which uh we live in broken dominion, and yet that mandate still holds, that design, the whole design of the creation of mankind is that mankind would have dominion, exercise dominion over the creation. And God has never given up on that goal, on that design. And that design is, in fact, uh fulfilled in Jesus Christ and uh will uh will culminate in his uh final kingdom and reign. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think it's helpful to when discussing the word kingdom or the idea of kingdom to connect it to kind of a cluster of terms and ideas like dominion or reign or rule or authority or lordship, um, these various ways of describing the different dimensions of what dominion or kingdom entails. Uh and we see there that you know, Adam's job was to be a king over creation, you know, through which the great high king of heaven would exercise his his rule or dominion. And uh when we discuss Adam's first sin, uh it was certainly an act of disobedience. Uh it was a it was a sin against God's command, his law that had been given, but it was also a failure of dominion because he is supposed to subdue every creature. I mean, when you're reading Genesis for the first time, I remember this almost feeling like, man, what like what is the deal? It keeps repeating, like, you know, all the creatures, you know, the birds of the air and the fish of the sea, and the beasts of the field. Like all the emphasis is totality. Every single creature is supposed to be under his rule or kingship. And then the story is one creature in particular, the serpent, gets dominion over him. So instead of him having dominion over the serpent and driving the serpent out, you know, the serpent invades this innocent and pristine creation, um, he comes under Satan's rule or dominion, so that Paul can now say that Satan is the god of this world. And so his sin in the beginning is a royal failure. It's a fail, literally, you know, it's a failure to have dominion, to exercise that uh over the serpent. And so the whole story of the Bible is set up in terms of this conflict between Satan's dominion uh and man's dominion, which he's you know failed to have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you mentioned that word subdue, which in our uh and throughout human history has uh tended to emphasize the almost a violent or forceful subjection of something that is out of order and forcing it if by handcuffs into its its proper place. Uh you know, there's a sense of the the world creatures have have rebelled against human dominion, and we have to kind of force it back. Well, uh, does that happen? Certainly. Uh there are there are times where that has to happen. But there's I think there's a a more primitive nuance that needs to be understood with subdue, and that is uh, I think the new uh living translation captures this. I think it uses the word word govern, and if I remember right, there's another translation that uses the word order. But to subdue creation, to have dominion, to subdue it, is is to bring it to order. Uh, is to take what God has created and is very good, but now to to oversee and to govern all of that good so that it flourishes together. It is an ordering idea, that humanity's dominion is a mandate to help bring things to proper order. Uh, we might say that it is to govern well over God's creation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so if you look at the opening chapters of the Bible through that lens, instead of subduing, man begins to subjugate. Instead of governing, they begin to tyrannize. Instead of having dominion, they begin to dominate. So, you know, you can look at Cain and Abel through that story. Instead of subduing creation, they're subduing one another. You know, they're they're dominating one another. Lamex boasting of his uh, you know, I has two wives and of his vengeance over Cain. Um, so this whole story of violence, man dominating is this unfold, the unfolding consequences of a failure to have um, you know, God, God ordained dominion. And I love to connect this to that verse in 2 Corinthians where Paul says, you know, the authority which God has given me for building up, not for tearing down. And so God gives Adam this call to govern, to order, to subdue, for flourishing, for good, for the good of creation. But we live in a world where um man has used his any power or influence that he has to tear down the other, that it's almost impossible to have a discussion about authority or about power without it being something negative, something to fear, something to be afraid of. And that's especially true in our in our postmodern world where everything is about um you know dynamics of power.
SPEAKER_02It is. And this is why the words of Christ when he came repeatedly said, fear not, you know, don't be afraid. And uh I and then uh there at the end of Matthew, he he says, you know, all authority has been given to him. Uh, you know, the apostle talks about uh all things being placed under his feet. Well, that's that's reference to the creation passage in in Psalm 8, where where God uh the psalmist is is describing God's creation of of mankind and is referring back to Genesis and dominion that he has given humanity dominion over the works of of your hands. You have put all things under his feet. Well, guess what? Uh we have done a terrible job of exercising uh dominion or subduing the earth, but Christ comes and and it is declared that the Father has placed all things under his feet. So we have the this rich theme also in this whole conversation of first Adam versus Second Adam. What the first Adam fails to do, the second Adam uh accomplishes. And he accomplishes it through death and through resurrection, and and through that shows his absolute authority over all things on earth, above the earth, under the earth. Uh he demonstrates his authority, and of course, that will be established in final resurrection.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my favorite place uh to go is Hebrews 2. Uh, I might even say it one of my favorite chapters in the entire Bible, because there in uh verse five, it says, It was not to angels that God subjected the world to come of which we are speaking. It has been testified somewhere. What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little uh while lower than the angels, you've crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Uh now, in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. But then here's the key at present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. It's like, no kidding. Look around, listen to the news, the world is a mess. You know, creation is in turmoil. Uh, you know, Romans 8 says it's it's groaning until now. But then verse 9 is so beautiful. But, but we see him. We see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels. You know, he became a man, he took on human flesh, uh, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. And then it goes down to talk about how through death he destroyed the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and made. So it's it's through the substitutionary atonement of Christ, it's through that death and descent into the dead and then the resurrection that the kingdom comes, that he has not just defeated this uh the enemies of God as a mere symptom, which is what you know the kings in the Old Testament could do. David could bring a temporary peace, he could put down the Philistines, but Jesus strikes at the heart of the problem. He gets to the root, he deals with the principalities and power, uh powers that animate this, you know, the kingdoms of this world, and by destroying them at the root gains uh an everlasting dominion over creation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And that's beautiful. The the connection between uh Hebrews, Hebrews uh two and and Psalm eight. Um beautiful and the Hebrews writer uh just makes such beautiful use of the psalms, especially, uh making those connections. And uh, of course, that then leads us, yeah, that connects all of it, right? Because it's creation. The psalmist is is talking about what we read about in Genesis 1 and Psalm 8. Hebrews writer comes along, quotes Psalm 8, uh, and uh and applies it to uh to Jesus Christ, saying, Hey, this this majestic king that you know we're talking about in Psalm 8, that's Jesus. He's the one under whose feet all things have been placed. Uh yeah, beautiful, beautiful use there of the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and the thing about uh this whole subject, I I feel this especially around Easter time when I proclaim, you know, death has been defeated and the serpent has been put under his feet. And everybody's like thinking, yeah, but you know, people still die and creation's still in turmoil. And if Jesus had his victory, it's it seems like why are things still so bad? But the good news is that this dominion that Christ has over the earth has begun to be exercised through the church. So even though creation has not yet been set right, even though that the kingdom is yet coming, it has been inaugurated, and we are supposed to see a glimpse of the coming kingdom of what is what we're anticipating, the new heavens and the new earth, in our life as the body now. So we are the people who go proclaiming that all authority in head in heaven and on earth has been given to him. Uh, we pray your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. And as Christ rules in our in our hearts and in the church and in the gathered community, I think it's Colossians that talks about you know the peace of Christ ruling among us. We're supposed to be like a little microcosm, this little miniature um world in which the peace and the joy and the harmony of new creation, of a world fully subdued, begins to break in now. And so we are like an embassy of the coming kingdom where we invite people to take refuge, you know, become citizens of the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom that is coming, and enter into this new creation community now, because the day's coming when the people who are part of the church are the citizens of the new creation. We are the new humanity that's going to dwell there forever. So, you know, the second major point is that the second Adam, who gained dominion by his cross and resurrection, you know, has begun to exercise that now through his people, the church.
SPEAKER_02Right. So let's talk a little bit about the relationship of the church and the kingdom of God. And I have made uh the statement in the past uh that uh bears some or needs you know some uh reflection, and that is that the church is not uh the totality of the kingdom, uh, but the church is today the ordinary and the visible manifestation of the reign of God uh on earth. And I think what happens, especially in many um minds that are going through a sort of deconstructive state, they're they're trying to rebuild, tear down some bad structure and rebuild some new ones, uh, what happens often is that the church gets left behind and this false dichotomy between kingdom and church creeps in. And uh the truth is that you're not going to come to a good view of the kingdom if it doesn't include the church, uh, and if it doesn't include the church at its foundation. Obviously, Jesus Christ himself is the cornerstone, he is the head, he is uh he is the it is is Jesus Christ speaking of his coming death and resurrection who says, I will build my church. And he is referring, of course, to his resurrection. Uh he will begin building the church by uh, you know, in three days rebuilding the temple, right? And uh so there's a connection, a deep theological connection that Jesus makes between the church and the kingdom. Uh so let's let's talk a little bit about that and then how that might uh relate to an eschatological view of what the kingdom looks like, uh particularly on earth.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you you made a great point there about um you know Jesus speaking about the kingdom and the church. And then you go to Paul, uh, you know, after Jesus ascends into heaven, Paul speaks about the church and much less frequently about the kingdom. So it's like sometimes this false dichotomy that people create is like a dichotomy between Jesus and Paul. So I've heard people say, like, you know, we're we're so Pauline and we're focused he was focused on the church. Jesus was much more focused on the kingdom. We need to get back to Jesus and his emphasis. But I think that's missing the relationship between Jesus and Paul and the epistles. The whole point is that the kingdom which Jesus preached comes and finds its visible manifestation in the church. Like that that's the whole point, is that it's in the church that his reign is exercised. So, you know, look at some of those key passages about the church in in Matthew 18 and 16. He talks about the church and its government, and it's all about uh the church exercising kingdom authority, uh binding and loosing. Uh in Matthew 16, where he you know promises that on this rock I will build my church, I will give you the keys of the kingdom. So where is kingdom authority? Where is the keys, the reign, the dominion of God exercised? It's exercised in and through the church as we use our God-given authority for building up, not for tearing down. And so the Westminster confession says that the visible church is the kingdom of Christ. And I think we can interpret that again, not as speaking of totality, but as saying that the a kingdom has to have a people and it has to have a place. You know, a king rules over a people in a place, and that people in a place is the assembled church, the the unity of the visible congregations in Christ, where the gospel of the kingdom is proclaimed, and where the sacraments are administered, uh, and where the church is maintained in its purity through through discipline, you know, to use Pope's uh definition there. And so I think in that sense we can say the church is the kingdom, even though it's not the totality of the kingdom.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Yeah. So you mentioned the Westminster Confession, which uh I believe is uh chapter 25. Um these are, of course, short chapters, we might call them articles today, but uh the visible church, it says, is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there's no ordinary possibility of salvation. It goes on to get to emphasize the visibility of the church, uh, the Catholicity of the church, and so forth. And I think this is where Matthew 18 is so important, Matthew uh 18, verse 20, especially, but really that whole passage 15 through 20, where you have two things happening that make the visibility of the church so important. One is the visibility of the church taking uh disciplinary action uh in regard to a sinning brother or sister. Uh, but then the second is the gathering, uh the visual gathering in verse 20 that that shows that indeed this is a gathering in Christ's name. And uh, you know, so what the church does in its gathering must show forth the uh the the Christ-centeredness of that gathering. And we've talked about you know the role of the sacraments in that and and other uh ways of visualizing that. But uh the point is that uh it is acknowledged, not only in Westminster Confession, but elsewhere, that the church is uh the ordinary and visible manifestation of the reign of God on earth. And that should elevate the church, no matter how imperfect your local church, my local church may be, it should still elevate our understanding of why God has brought the church into formation, why the Holy Spirit formed the body of Christ as the church. And we should uh then become very uh serious and and seek to have a robust ecclesiology that will support this massive theme of the kingdom in scripture.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I think the reason why people do end up pitting the two against each other is because they look at the church that they've been a part of and they say, man, this looks nothing like the kingdom of Christ that's that's promised in scripture. Where's the peace? Where's the joy? Where's the love? Where's the support? And so when you have a bad experience with the church, it's very easy to uh you know to pit it against the kingdom. But this is why we need to have accountability and we need to build, focus on building healthy churches so that our exercises of authority really are for building up. You know, the church should be a place where the poor are are loved and cherished and cared for, where widows and orphans are attended to. And that that's part of the reason why in the New Testament the church was so focused on caring for the widows and the orphans and the poor because all through the Old Testament that is a sign of what a righteous reign looks like. You know the righteous kings of the old of the Old Testament were those who gave justice for the afflicted for the oppressed for the outcast. Their reign and rule wasn't just about self-promotion and about amassing wealth and power but it was about giving uh the poor and the oppressed their due making sure that all the citizens of of the kingdom were cared for and and were flourishing. And so as the church as we exercise that kingdom authority we do it in a way that elevates everyone.
SPEAKER_02Yes yes and a a well ordered world only happens when there is a well-ordered church the when the community I think you earlier you called the the new creation community is living out the order and the design which God has placed upon us as as persons in communion it's it's out of that that creation uh begins to experience uh newness re refreshment recreation in a sense uh yes Jesus Christ hims you know the creation is renewed in Jesus Christ in his death and resurrection and ultimately in his return uh but he uses and will use the church to uh fulfill his mandate we can't forget here also that part of that original mandate is to fill the earth right to fill the earth uh to to carry with us throughout the entirety of the world the uh the reign of God the glory of God that that's what the prophets like to talk about this in terms of of the glory of God being uh throughout the whole earth right uh you know even nature itself you know the trees Ezekiel says the trees will know that he is the Lord uh and they will glorify him uh that that's all part of our mandate to to fill the earth and in our filling not only are we subduing not only are you exercising uh care and uh governing the world but we are showing the glory of God and carrying that out yeah and the church is the place where the glory of God dwells it's the place where heaven touches down and and meets with earth.
SPEAKER_01And so you know to go back to the garden uh in the beginning God creates the heaven and the earth heaven is where God dwells it's where his you know his glory make manifests itself it's it's the place filled with God's glory earth is man's dwelling but in the Garden of Eden heaven and earth intersect. You know Adam and Eve walk with God they experience his glorious presence and yet they're not supposed to stay there forever. They're supposed to fill have dominion over all the earth and so all of creation the whole earth which God has called very good was created for him. And so now as the church goes out and invites people into the church as we spread out and fill the earth and fulfill the great commission the glory of God is coming to dwell over all the earth and that's going to be fulfilled when heaven and earth in the end become one and the dwelling place of God is with man.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm so you have created a chart that I think you are going to use in your local church for some discipleship purposes. So let let's work through that here in just a moment. We'll put that in the show notes I believe for those who are listening and when you get to a place where you can look you can perhaps download this or take a look at it. But as we uh introduce this let me mention this by way of just theology that is the ecclesiology which is the doctrine of the church ecclesiology is a theology of the kingdom of God. You cannot do there is no other theologizing about the kingdom of God that is exclusive of the church. So ecclesiology is a study of the kingdom of God. So at the top of this chart you have a couple of lines from the Nicene Creed let me just read those and and that will uh start our conversation here about this uh this chart which which you'll make available it says he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead to judge their I understand to be you know put in place put in order um uh uh to to to subdue to use the language from Genesis 1 uh to make uh uh to make right uh the living and the dead his kingdom shall have no end and then I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come Amen. So those are a couple of lines from the Nicene Creed that uh summarize uh the doctrine of the kingdom. Uh so you know work us through this chart. Uh again if if you're listening and you are able to follow along, we welcome you to do that. If not you can look at this chart uh in the show notes and take a look at what we're looking at.
SPEAKER_01Yeah sure so I'm I'm just a very visual learner. I have to see it and I'm always doodling uh even if I'm lecturing or something I'll have notes in front of me and I'll be doodling as I'm talking. So it's just it just really helps helps me to visualize this. But just three simple panels uh the first panel is what we've we've discussed about the first Adam failing to have dominion so you've got heaven uh and then you've got earth those are two different spaces or spheres that are overlapping in Eden and Eden is where heaven God's dwelling which is filled with God's glory touches down and man dwells with God. But Adam is supposed to go out and have dominion over all the earth fill the earth and subdue it because all things were created for God. It was created very good. And so Adam is supposed to extend as it were God's reign over creation um by being an instrument through which that dominion is exercised. But we know of course he failed to do that. And so the second panel just shows how the second let me stop you there for a second.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah let me let me stop you there because I want to I want to make this comment that goes back to the my emphasis on filling the earth multiplying filling the earth subduing it that sometimes we pass over very quickly so why is it so important for humanity to fill the earth now as we go through these panels I I want to to give you know plant this seed of thought that God ordered humanity to fill the earth and that that mandate comes upon the description of Adam and Eve being created in the image of God after his likeness and that in the words of the prophet filling the earth means that they're going to fill the earth with the likeness, with the image of God that is with his glory in order to prepare it for God's very presence. So it's not this you know one-sided mankind go have fun throughout the whole earth and manipulate and and you know subject the earth to whatever you imagine but no it is fill the earth in order to prepare it to order it and prepare it for God to dwell with man on earth for a great wedding that is being they're supposed to be preparing the earth for a wedding that's that's the bottom line. So that's why filling the earth is so important to that whole mandate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah exactly and so another thing that comes in here it is exile because um instead of them going out from Eden and ex and filling the earth from Eden they're actually put out of Eden they're they're kind of like forcibly removed um and and forced to live in exile. So the earth becomes a place of exile from Eden. It's uh the same thing with Cain where Cain subdues kills dominates subjugates his brother and failed dominion leads to another form of exile he's forced to wander the earth has a mark upon him so when you when you fail to have dominion there's lost dwelling there there's the loss of dwelling with God. And so when Christ comes he comes to lead us in this you know new exodus out of exile out of spiritual exile and this world which is not our home right we're in exile here becomes a place for God's dwelling as the reign of God comes and the Spirit of God comes through and in the church of Jesus Christ. So the second panel here is that the second Adam gains dominion by his cross and resurrection and begins to exercise it through the church. And so now the church becomes the place where God's glory dwells the place where heaven touches down.
SPEAKER_02And now just like Adam we're going out we're going out into all the earth because Christ has authority over it and we're praying that his kingdom would come on earth as it is in heaven right and so we are filling the earth the church is called now to to fill the earth uh to to go out right that's our commission our commission is to go to you know every corner of the world and to uh carry on what Christ has has done which Adam failed to do and so there is the same vision exists right it's the same vision that uh the earth will be filled with the glory of God in humanity and that of course Jesus Christ as John says is the glory he is the glory of of God and we are the glory of God in Christ.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and I think you're right it's the same vision and that can't be emphasized too strongly because so often we pit those things against each other. I've I've heard people say the difference between a Bible college and a Christian liberal arts school is that Bible colleges are focused on the Great Commission and Christian liberal arts schools are focused on the cultural mandate. Oh that's just terrible right that's just a fundamental misunderstanding.
SPEAKER_02The Great Commission is the renewal of that initial uh that initial cultural mandate that the two cannot be separated right right no no they can't and and sometimes we we fall into these ways of thinking without really even understanding what we've done uh that we have have bifurcated you know uh concepts that need to stay together and uh there are probably a lot of examples of doing that I I think I'm going to go back here just for a second but this is I think it's such a powerful idea that failed dominion always leads to exile and I think the way you put it is lost dwelling.
SPEAKER_01This my mind immediately you know moves to to the concepts of heaven and hell uh ultimately that's exactly what uh what the difference between heaven and hell uh is uh either fulfillment of that that uh mandate or um or failure and uh one leads to uh you know perfection of the design of God uh the other leads to exile uh there's there there's just simply no alternative it it it really is a dilemma that faces the human race yeah yeah I mean if you fail to have dominion you're exiled from Eden the day is coming when Revelation 22 depicts the whole earth as an edenic temple so if the whole earth is going to be a new Eden, if the whole earth is going to be God's dwelling, if the whole earth is going to be covered in God's glory, where do people go who refuse to bow to King Jesus who refute to refuse to submit to his to his rule and to his reign? Well they can't dwell on earth earth can't be their place of exile now that they can't wander the earth there's no corner of the earth that isn't filled with his glory so hell is the place of exile from the heaven and earth place.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm Yeah exactly and you know we uh obviously Jesus had various descriptions uh lake of fire there the you know place of the dead the the uh you know a number of descriptions uh that describe a a place of torment and so forth uh without ever saying exactly where that is but that uh that the reality of failed dominion is exile cannot be doubted because that is the theme from literally from Genesis uh 1 to Revelation 22 even in Revelation 22 you still have the Holy Spirit and the church calling to those who are outside the city calling for them to to come in and uh yeah it it's and that's a complicated uh eschatologically to know okay where is this in the chronology uh you know has John gone backwards is this you know is this just kind of the the the last chapter and so this is chronologically the end i i don't know the answer to that simply but other than to say from beginning Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 the emphasis is don't be on the outside yeah yeah I and I think when people hear that word exile they think of the gray exile of Israel uh from the promised land to Babylon and I think this brings us back again to Genesis because all through the Bible there's these different um I don't know what the right word is instantiations of the serpent's seed and and Babylon is just and it's depicted in Revelation as well as like the demonic kingdom the place where the serpent rules and so exile is exile from the land of promise from the land where the temple is where God's glory dwells and exile to this land of darkness and subjugation and domination under the serpent's rule. And so when Christ comes he crop he comes to put down all earthly Babylons to put them under his feet and to make one universal kingdom over of all all creation where you know his presence dwells yeah and and for me one of the most formative scriptures comes in Revelation 213 and one of the reasons it's so formative is where it comes it's in it's in Revelation it's it's like a it's almost like it's a summary statement uh by by the apostle John as to where scripture has been taking us and it's that third verse in chapter 21 where it says the dwelling of God is with man. And that obviously is is drawing again from that that garden image that we have in Genesis 2 where we have uh God fellowshipping with Adam and with Eve there's a nearness there's a there's a presence there from which Adam and Eve in chapter three in chapter three are removed but again and here at the end then once again the dwelling place of God will be with man. And I think John is intentionally giving us the image that it's not man going to where God is as if he's some other place, but is God coming to where we are the dwelling place of God is coming. And so that's the image that he goes on to to describe with the city coming down from heaven not not us going up to the city but the city coming down all of the images that are used there in these summary chapters are depicting a a wedding a marriage of of God and man a marriage of of heaven and earth so that God's dwelling is with man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah if you believe that we are going to leave this earth and be up in heaven you know a place eternally separate from the earth as the there's a song you know he keeps me singing that says we will wing our flight to worlds unknown to reign with him above the sky that's not just that's not just one wrong belief that's like a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole story of the Bible like you've missed the grand narrative of scripture that's a that's a big deal and and from there all kinds of other things just get out of whack. And it's just such a it's it's such a small vision too the the promise of Christ is that we're gonna inherit the earth that that the promised land which was given to Israel is going to be expanded to include all of creation.
SPEAKER_02You know Peter says we're waiting for new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells and you know what a what a much greater and glorious promise to know that God isn't going to abandon this world but he he's gonna set it right I I think one of the things that people are challenged by is is imagining how heaven can be like this earth or how heaven can possibly dwell on earth or or how even speaking of resurrection how can you this body that I'm living in, how can it be perfected? What's it mean for me to have a a perfected being for this world, for anything material? Because we experience ourselves we experience the world we experience nature obviously and very much in a fallen state. And so it's it is difficult for us to imagine what that might look like if it were perfect. And so we are left with then a nebulous idea of something different. And so I want to say uh going back also to our discussion of the church but also in relation to the the present world that whatever the kingdom of God is and whatever heaven or our eternal dwelling place is, it is not dissimilar from the church or from the earth as we know it uh that is not to say that the church is perfect or that the earth is not fallen, but it is to say that there is continuity. That is that just as God has created man and woman in his image although we fail to bear out that image in any perfect sense we are nonetheless still uh in his likeness uh that is why God is redeeming us and this world and why he uses the church To show forth his glory. As imperfect as they may be, they show us something of what the eternal kingdom is like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, Paul uses the words if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, the old has passed away, all things have become new. And you know, I think about my old life and uh how different it was before I knew Christ. You know, the old Jonathan was very different from the new Jonathan. If you knew me back then, I was almost like a totally different person. And so when I say I'm a new creature, the old has passed away, the new has come, that has affected almost every area of my life. However, there's one thing that isn't different. I'm still Jonathan, right? I'm I'm still you would still be able to recognize me very much so. I look very similar. I, you know, I uh I sound very similar. There's more continuity at the end of the day than there is discontinuity, and in that sense. And so when we talk about the new heavens and the new earth, we mean new in this in a very similar way. The the earth, the old things of the earth have passed away. The sin, the crying, the curse, right? Revelation says there will be no more curse, no, no, nothing will be accursed. Um, God will wipe away all wickedness from the earth, you know, as Psalm 37 promises. The creation will be set free from its bondage, and all things will become new. However, it will still be the earth, it will still be recognizable. It will, there will be a fundamental continuity that in some sense runs deeper than the discontinuity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and there's another verse you have here on this chart that is so important to me, and that is Matthew 5.5 uh blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Uh meek, uh, or in our uh modern language, maybe gentle, uh, because I think this is the verse, this is the lens through which we should read Genesis 128 and that that mandate to have dominion. Uh we uh as a human human race, we exercise, attempt to exercise domination, but these words of Christ, blessed not those who dominate others, but those who are meek. Why? Because they shall inherit the whole earth.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that's the the third panel, the second Adam returns to fully establish his unending kingdom, uh, his reign and dominion on the earth. And so whereas heaven and earth were two separate but overlapping spheres, now uh heaven covers the earth. They're one place. Uh, there's a another song, another hymn, uh, this is my father's world, which says heaven and earth shall be one. And so we inherit the earth. So it's not that we're not going to heaven. That that is the goal of the Christian life, to get to heaven, as John Wesley says, to land on that happy shore. But that happy shore is earth. That happy shore is an earth fully subdued and fully renewed, not a place that's eternally separate. Uh, and if that was the case, all of Christ's promises to establish his kingdom on earth uh would would not be fulfilled. I want to ask you about one last thing before we uh come to come to a close here, and that's the millennium. I um, I'll be honest, I'm I'm kind of unsettled on my view of of the millennium, but I'm very comfortable with the pre the historic pre-millennial position rather than the dispensationalist view that there will be a rapture, but the historic premillennial view that there is a literal millennial reign of Christ on earth. But the lingering question that I've always had is what's the point? Why, why would Christ come finally, right? So this third panel is the second Adam returns to fully establish his unending kingdom. Why would he finally come and wait a thousand years? That's a long time, right? Oh, I don't really, I don't really want to wait a thousand years for all things to be made new. And um, Jim Hamilton is a premillennialist who wrote a little blog post, um, probably the best thing I've ever read on this whole issue. What's the point of the millennium? And he he says this um the millennium provides another point of contact between Adam and Jesus. So, you know, we've been talking about this first Adam, second Adam having dominion, and he says the millennium is about providing a typological point of contact contact between the first and second Adam. So um to kind of summarize where he goes with this, is that Adam was in this undefiled garden when it was invaded and defiled by Satan. So Adam and Eve did not withstand the temptation, but sinned and were expelled or exiled from God's presence. And so Christ, when he comes, comes to reverse that act of disobedience in the millennium, where once again, at the end of the thousand years, in which Christ is restoring creation to an Eden-like state, the serpent is released. He gets one more chance to go after Adam, as in the garden at the beginning. But this time, when the serpent tries to invade creation at the end of the millennium, the new Adam resists. He does what the first Adam should have done in the beginning. So uh he says, having established a millennial kingdom, a golden age of undefiled innocence, Jesus has subdued the earth, filling and ruling over it as God commanded Adam to do when Satan is released from the pit. And Christ at the end of the millennium will stand fast against the satanic revol uh revolt. He'll bring about a better Eden, he will conquer, and there's one line here at the end that I think is worth adding. Uh Adam sinned in Eden, but Jesus will overcome Satan at the end of the Edenic millennium. Whereas Adam was driven from the garden, the conquest of Christ opens the way for the eatening of all creation. And he uses that as a verb there, Eden, Edening, Edening of all creation in fulfillment of God's eternal purpose. And then he ends by citing Revelation 22, 3 to 5. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that. You know, I don't know where you stand on the whole issue of the millennium, but for me, that is by far the best answer to a question that I can continue to wrestle with, but you know, it's just lingering, like, what's the point?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I mean I think that's a very helpful answer to the question of a of a literal thousand years. Um otherwise, you know, an omillennialist will say, well, you know, it's not a thousand literal years, that that's figurative. Um but yeah, I mean, I think there's uh I think there may be something to this. I am with you. I don't I'm not dogmatic on where I am as in regard to you know pre-millennialism or uh amillennialism. I have um I some people might call me an omillennialist, while others might call me a pre, but uh regardless of all that, um, I don't even know what I am necessarily. But I have not come across this um before. I think it's very interesting that he uh he calls this the Edenic millennium. So this is uh the renewal as you described, a a renewal of Eden in order for the purpose of a reenactment of uh the first Eden. So that's very interesting. I'd have to think some more about that. Um yeah, very interesting. Uh certainly is one possible answer, uh I would say to it. Uh I have tended to see uh the millennium more in figurative terms. Um and I think that's uh probably uh the the major view in church history, but not necessarily the consensus view. Um and so yeah, but I think this is yeah, I definitely am warm to this, to these kinds of ideas too. You know, I certainly would not discount them or dispel them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, you know, in that chart, uh now I'm thinking about post-millennialism. Of course, Wesley was a post-millennialist. And in that chart, in the second panel there, where the church is going out to uh to exercise dominion, you know, the second atom is beginning to exercise dominion, post-millennialism basically says that that blue sphere begins to progressively overlap the earth until they are until they become one.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01It's like the the uh kingdom is fully brought through the church on earth. So even if you don't aren't a post-millennialism, which I'm not a post-millennialist, um, it's still interesting to realize that we all fundamentally agree that that's what's happening. That's the goal. How it's actually going to happen, you know, we differ on that, but the goal is that the reign of God would be brought on the earth. And to have this escapist view doesn't fit with any historic, you know, millennial view. Right. Uh doesn't really fit with historic Christianity.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, absolutely. And and I would contend that that's the only way that is to have this historic Christian view of heaven and earth being one, that's the only way to truly have a happy anticipation and to be able to long for and eagerly await the coming of the day of God in which his reign, unending reign, is established on earth.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Amen. It's good news. It's good news. It's gospel, it's the gospel of the kingdom. And uh, you know, hey, if there's somebody listening to this and you have not bowed your knees to King Jesus, do it right now. Bow now, find forgiveness from the king, enter into his kingdom through the church, and trust him because there's a great, great day coming, and you don't want to miss it. You don't want to live in exile from the presence of God, which is gonna fill this earth. Uh, we talk about when the when it's humid outside and it's so it's so thick, you could cut it with a knife. The glory of God is gonna be so thick over the earth, it's gonna be like we can touch it. I can't imagine what it's gonna be like. Don't miss that. Um, you know, find refuge in him. Happy are those who seek refuge in him.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Let it be so. Thank you for listening to the Holy Joys podcast. Email your questions to podcast at holyjoys.org, and they may be featured on a future episode. Our labors for a holy happy church are supported by generous listeners like you. Please pray about partnering with us at holyjoys.org forward slash donate.
