Highly Sensitive Humans Podcast
The Highly Sensitive Humans Podcast offers insight into the world of the Highly Sensitive Person, and helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to feel more empowered and resilient without denying their authentic gifts.
Highly Sensitive Humans Podcast
Authentic Self-Expression for Highly Sensitive People with Jacquelyn Strickland
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In this episode, I speak to Jacquelyn Strickland, a licensed professional counsellor, who has worked exclusively with highly sensitive people since 2000. We speak about the barriers to self-expression and the tools and techniques that can support us in authentic self-expression and communication as Highly Sensitive People. We discuss exterior listening vs interior listening, our spiritual path, the concept of an inner calling, soul purpose and the importance of 'following our bliss.'
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Jacquelyn Strickland
Jacquelyn's practice has slowly transitioned into her current work as a Mentor and Coach for highly sensitive people. Her background in Social Work, Women’s Studies, cultural diversity and a graduate degree in Counseling still empower and informed her work. She has been
trained in hypnotherapy and utilized her Level II EMDR training in her psychotherapy practice. She has been certified to utilize Myers Briggs Personality Assessment since 1991, and is also well versed in the use of the Enneagram, using both of these modalities, when helpful, in her work. Jacquelyn is one of the very first pioneers, along with Elaine Aron, of what is now an international movement connecting HSPs around the world. She is a member of ICHS – International Consultants on High Sensitivity which is an international group of highly sensitive professionals trained in 2018 by Dr Elaine Aron. Jacquelyn made a brief appearance in the 2015 documentary: Sensitive, The Untold Story.
Stay in Touch
Jacquelyn's Website
Facebook page- HSP Gathering Retreats
Sign up for her newsletter, HSP Highlights & Insights
Resources Mentioned
John Hopkins with Ram Dass, East Forest - Sit Around the Fire
The Highly Sensitive Person and the Numinous
Become a patron of the Highly Sensitive Human Podcast and get early, exclusive access to the podcast, the written transcripts, behind the scenes content and a bonus Q + A with experts: BECOME A PATRON HERE >>
More about Jules De Vitto...
Jules De Vitto is a Transpersonal Coach who is experienced at helping Highly Sensitive People overcome anxiety, stress and burnout. Jules is Highly Sensitive herself and is passionate about helping Highly Sensitive People step into their authentic power and align with their true purpose in life. She lived in Asia for eleven years before moving to London and integrates Eastern practices and modern-day mindfulness into her work. She has a degree in Psychology, an MA in Education and an MSc in Transpersonal Psychology, Consciousness and Spirituality. She’s a Meditation teacher on Insight Timer and a published author through Changemaker Books and John Hunt Publishers. She wrote Resilience: Navigating Loss in a Time of Crisis to help people through the Covid-19 Pandemic available here.
You can stay connected with Jules through...
About the Host: Jules De Vitto is a transpersonal coach, trainer and experienced educator for Highly Sensitive People. She helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to navigate emotional overwhelm, step into their authentic power and align with their true purpose in life. She is a published author and wrote one of a series of books on Resilience, Navigating Loss in a time of Crisis. Her research has also been published in the Transpersonal Coaching Psychology Journal and Journal of Consciousness, Spirituality, and Transpersonal Psychology.
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The Highly Sensitive Human Academy™ - join our 3-month professional training: coaching Highly Sensitive People
Welcome, I'm your host Jules DeVito, and you're listening to the Highly Sensitive Human Podcast, the show that offers an insight into the world of the highly sensitive person and helps those who identify with the traits of high sensitivity to feel more empowered and resilient without denying their authentic gifts. So Jacqueline became a licensed professional counsellor in 1993 and has worked exclusively with highly sensitive people since the year 2000. Her psychotherapy practice has slowly transitioned into her current work as a mentor and coach for highly sensitive people. Her background in social work, women's studies, cultural diversity, and a graduate degree in counselling still empower and inform her work. She's been trained in hypnotherapy and utilized her level two EMDR training in her psychotherapy practice. She's been certified to utilise Maya Briggs personality assessment since 1991 and is also well versed in the use of the Heliogram, using both of these modalities when helping in her work. So Jacqueline is one of the very first pioneers, along with Elaine Aren, of what is now an international movement connecting highly sensitive people all around the world. She is a member of the International Consultants on High Sensitivity, which is an international group of highly sensitive professionals trained in 2018 by Dr. Elaine Aren. And Jacqueline also made a brief appearance in the 2015 documentary Sensitive The Untold Story. So welcome, Jacqueline, and thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Yeah, thanks for having me, Jules. So obviously, this podcast is about the highly sensitive person. And I was wondering, can you give us a bit more of a definition as to what the highly sensitive person is and what it means to you? So from your experience of working with highly sensitive people over the years?
SPEAKER_01Sure. I the definition of highly sensitive people or sensory processing sensitivity that I have relied on for over 25 years is that from Dr. Elaine Aaron, the research psychologist that coined the term. She didn't discover this trade, she coined the term, wrote a book, as we all know, wrote several books. And basically, I adhere to her definition and the facts regarding that, which I'll go into briefly, mainly because it's broad enough to include the 1.6 billion HSPs in the world, which are show, which show up, you know, different genders, different cultures, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different temperaments, and different degrees in the way in which we've integrated the trade or not. So I know I do acknowledge there are other people who have taken her work and expounded upon it and have created different terms for it, but I find those terms somewhat limiting and generalized, and um, and my fear is that they stereotype it. So Dr. Lane's Aaron's definition um that it's the DOES that we all have in common, and personally and professionally, I I come to the HSP trait from a cultural perspective, a cultural and sociological perspective, also a spiritual perspective. Those would be the three that that um inform me the most. Um I know there's a psychological perspective and a physiological perspective, and and I don't downplay those, but for me, um as an HSP, um I've I've realized that to embrace this trait is a spiritual journey. And by that I just mean it's it's a journey of discovery and healing and transforming into becoming who we truly are meant to be and to take our purpose in the world, however that may be for each of us. So um for me it's been a journey, and it's also the clients I've worked that I've been blessed to work with over the 25 years. It's a process of moving from exterior listening to interior listening and to connecting with a deep inner voice that inevitably leads us to a next right action if we choose to follow that voice.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful. Yeah, thank you for that description. And I really love what you said about you know it being a spiritual journey and it also relating to our discovery and healing and uh connecting with our purpose in life as well. And I'm just wondering if you could can you share a bit more about your story in being um in relation to being highly sensitive? And I know that's a big question, uh, but what are some of the um most significant parts of your journey that you've come across since you um found out about being highly sensitive?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's certainly been a life-changing um discovery for me, as it has been, I think, for every single highly sensitive person that I hear from. Um and my story started in May of 7, 1996. I was waiting for a bus in Marin County, which happens to be where Elaine Aaron lives. And I used to live in San Francisco, so I was back visiting and I was waiting for a bus. And in this bus shelter, there were all these flyers posted up, and it was raining, and many of the flyers are wet and soggy. And there was this one flyer that just said, ask a series of questions like, um, do you find yourself needing more sleep than the average person? I was like, Yes, I never thought about it, but oh my gosh, yes, that's so true. Do you find yourself needing more downtime to process events of your day, um, especially if stressed? I was like, gosh, I never thought about it, but oh my gosh, that's so true too. And do you find yourself being greatly soothed by being in nature or near water? I was like, yes, you find yourself uniquely spiritual with a keen of introspection. I was like, oh, yes. So this series of questions just kind of gave me goosebumps. Even to this day, I get goosebumps. And I was thinking, who has put together this series of questions that seems to bring forth something in me that I never put together? Then at the end, it said you may be a highly sensitive person. And it was Elaying Aaron before internet. She had her little phone number on the bottom where you tore it off, and she was looking for research subjects for her first book. So I tore it off, kept it for a while, kept looking up her name, found out she had a book. I'm making a long story short, um, got the book, found myself on every page as a licensed professional counselor in '93. It was now 96, 97. I was thinking about getting out of the mental health bill because it was very uh concerning to me that I felt like I was putting band-aids on serious wounds. And anyway, I came across this trait, um, started doing uh groups for it, put together an announcement for our newspaper, which said usually it's it was this short what group for highly sensitive people, when, date, cost, called this number, wasn't expecting anything to happen from it. Then a person from the newspaper called me, said she wanted to interview me. She did the following Sunday on the newspaper was this huge on the life section, this huge heading, Are You a Highly Sensitive Person? My phone was ringing off the wall. My groups filled up immediately. I had waiting lists of people, so I did these three groups and then three or and more groups of a unique um way that I do groups, which is sort of a social justice social work kind of framework, and sent them to sent the results to Elaine in a package at her snail mail address and told her I would be in San Francisco the following week in or month. Could I meet her? She never called back. I got home, felt kind of, you know, I don't know what a typical HSP would feel, kind of embarrassed, like, oh, of course she wouldn't want to meet me. Anyway, I get another letter from her, handwritten uh in the mail, saying, uh, dear Jacqueline, I'm so sorry I missed you. Sometimes I don't open my mail for days, sometimes weeks. I love what you're doing. Please call me. I called her up. We had we talked for about two hours, and she was like, Um, what's your theoretical orientation to working with highly sensitive people? And I said, Well, you know, I really don't have one because I don't think there's anything wrong with us. I do think it's a cultural diversity issue. So we got to talking about cultural diversity issues. And anyway, once one thing went to another, and she was like, Um, so what do you want to do with this? And I said, I don't know. I just think HSPs, we just need to somehow, you know, be together. And um, she was so she said, Do you want my California mailing list? I was like, Okay, oh sure. So anyway, I did I got that, and then we talked later, and it was something about, well, what are you gonna do? Like a lecture. I was like, no, not a lecture, a seminar. I was like, no, not a seminar, a conference. I was like, no, I don't even go to conferences. I said, we just need to, and we both sort of said it at the same time, gather. So that was how the HSP gathering retreats started. And the first one was in May of 2001, and there were 37 people there. I was totally overwhelmed, and everybody was so kind. There were tears, my tears, her tears, everybody's tears. It was so beautiful. And little did we know that 25 years later, these retreats would be national and international and change my life and change my work. And so it's just been a it's just been a really beautiful journey.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's incredible. What a journey. And thank you for sharing and such a series of uh synchronicities as well, it sounds like. So um you've been co-hosting these with Elaine Aaron, is that correct? When they they started.
SPEAKER_01No, actually, I am the the founder and the the I am the facilitator and I am the host. And Elaine and Air, Elaine and I, when we agreed to do these, it was okay, I'll show up for my part from 9 to 12, and you do everything else. So basically that's been our agreement. And um, and uh it's been really fun to watch Elaine um be a major introvert the first few years. I was instructed to make sure that no one came up to her at the end. She didn't want to sign anybody's book, she didn't want to be overwhelmed, she didn't want people to come up and want to hug her, and she wanted to leave right at noon, and I was like, okay, okay, I will I will do my best to honor that. And and now the last in-person gathering, which was gosh a couple years ago now, she now has people waiting up, 25 in line, to sign their books, she spends time with them, she hugs them. You know, it's really fun to watch her um learn to use her extroverted side in service to what she's doing in the world. But I don't know that that answered your question about those retreats in particular.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so what I was wondering actually is um from doing these retreats, what have you found to be the most um beneficial outcomes of HSPs gathering and coming together in community? What have you found to be helpful for people?
SPEAKER_01I think the most profound observation is people for the first time feeling a sense of being valued, being seen and heard, acknowledging that they have this trait and that uh there's nothing wrong with them. And and and just the sense of joy and love that is co-created over four days together in nature is really kind of just a profound experience in itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I think that idea of um experiencing being seen, being heard, being valued is so important for highly sensitive people. And I love what you said a moment ago about you know, there's nothing wrong with us. And you you spoke about um cultural diversity, it being a cultural diversity issue. And I was wondering, could you expand a bit more about that and what that means to you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what that means to me is that you know, if we're 15 to 20 percent of the population, some some reachers, researchers are thinking a little bit more than that, but we are a minority within a minority. We are a minority. And then I was thinking of the sensitive extrovert who's a minority within that minority, but just being a minority in the population is is one being part of a cultural diversity. And two, I think the traits of DOES are a unique, um, are unique, uniquely specific to this minority of highly sensitive people. And I think also the the gifts and talents, the positive sides of our trait are are not what is uh usually valued in our society and in many cultures. And so to me, cultural diversity means to be um have freedom of thought, feeling, action, perspective. And I don't think in our culture that highly sensitive people necessarily have freedom of thought, feeling, action, and perspective. That's something that my work, it's really important to me in my work is to empower highly sensitive people to own their perspective, to to speak out about things within their family, within their circles of influence, and and as we know, all the mill all the things that are happening in the world that affect highly sensitive people and other and others.
SPEAKER_00In relation to that, because I know as a highly sensitive person that speaking out about my truths or my perspective and being seen and heard or feeling understood has been a big challenge for me my whole life. And I'm wondering, yeah, could you talk a bit more about what you see as being some of the struggles of um self-expression and this ability to speak up? Absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Um, well, first of all, I think many people, not just highly sensitive people, but um let's just say for many highly sensitive people and others, knowing what one truly thinks and feels and needs is often foreign to them. So, first I think we have to, a barrier to self-expression is knowing what it is we deeply hold, we deeply hold true to ourselves that we deeply value. So really, really going from that external listening to internal listening. And then once we do that, we do realize that oh my gosh, I it seems I do think counter to the dominant culture in many ways. And when I have spoken up about that in the past, the repercussions of that have been unpleasant. People have not liked what I've had to say. And then what we HSPs do is we oh, then we kind of re you know, even me as sensitive extrovert, I become very introverted. I used to become very introverted. I would try to stay small, I would try not to broke the boat. Um, Ted Zeft has in his book, this highly sensitive boy, talked about the boy code, which I think is very, very real. Um, and that boys need to be strong. They always have to know the right answer, they have to play sports, they have to make a lot of money, they have to be in control at all times, not have any feelings other than anger. Well, there's a girl code too, which is don't rock the boat, don't, don't upset the status quo, be nice, be kind, serve others, you know, and those codes keep us small. And when we break out of the codes, as as you said, it has it is a struggle to stand in your truth and to take repercussions. Oh, she's just too, you know, she's just how many times have I heard? Oh, you're just too emotional, you're just too passionate, you're too B-I-T-C-H-Y, you're too, you're, you know, just you're too whatever. And so I think that keeps many HSPs small. And it's again part of my work to acknowledge that struggle and to help others and myself continue to stand in our truth and speak our truth with love, with care, and without attachment to the outcome.
SPEAKER_00I also, as you're talking, I feel so passionate about this as well, just because I know how much of a struggle it is. Like I said, for myself, it's been a big struggle in the past, and then a struggle for so many people that I work with as well in my my coaching practice. And I think, yeah, one of the things you mentioned was the unpleasant reactions we get from other people when we start to speak up or set boundaries, and being sensitive, we can really feel you know, feel that uh resistance from the other person or from society as a whole. So, yeah, there is a tendency to shut down or stay small. And I'm wondering what tools or techniques do you think highly sensitive people can use to help them stand in their power or break out of this code you were talking about?
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Well, at the retreats, the HSP Gathering retreats, I I I always usually bring this vision or this, it's actually someone drew it for me. Um, it's on a big piece of laminated poster board and it's of a castle. And inside and at the castle has these towers, you know, and it has this moat door that you open up to the water or to the outside, and it has these windows around it. And so I encourage highly sensitive people every day to climb up onto the tower of your own inner castle and look out into the world and into and anticipate who and what is coming your way today? What and what challenges might I face to who I am and what I'm trying to do in the world? Sort of be prepared for who and what might come your way. And then to understand is this a battle that I want to take on, or is it a battle that I can just sort of observe from the side? And then at the end of every day, um, I encourage people to go back and review their day. Where did I, where, as you were talking about, repercussions, where did I experience some a repercussion or some unpleasant feedback when I spoke my truth? Where did where did that hurt me, psychologically, physically, emotionally, spiritually? And then to go at the end of the day and go into that inner part of the castle, which I have called, come to call my own HSP inner sanctuary. And my HSP inner sanctuary is this beautiful, gorgeous place where I can feel 100% in held in love, held in grace, held in knowingness, um, and safety and nurturing. And I go there when I'm hurt or when I have been, when I have received negative repercussions for speaking my truth. And I go there at the end of each day and I encourage other HSPs to self-soothe our hurt feelings and uh the way we were misunderstood. And again, I I have these nurturing and protective figures that I've learned in my work in EMDR that I used to do when I was doing the psychotherapy practice. And we were all um taught to develop a nurturing and a protective figure. So my protective figure, no, my nurturing figure is Maya Angelou. So when people when I've received those kind of repercussions, often what comes to me when I'm in my HSP inner sanctuary is this lovely voice from Mayo Angelou, which says, Oh, forgive them, for they know not what they do, when they know better than They'll do better. And it sort of helps me just sort of smile and think, okay, yeah, when they know better, they'll do better. And and I'm going to continue, it just self-soothes me to continue to speak my truth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's fantastic. I I really love this analogy of the castle and then the inner sanctuary you were talking about and cultivating these nurturing and protective figures within ourselves. I think, yeah, this ability to self-soothe is so important for highly sensitive people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I will say that at one retreat, a person said, Oh, I hate castles. I just hate them. I just shiver when I think about them. Can I create a tree house? And I was like, oh, tree house is even better. That's beautiful. So, you know, whatever works in a metaphor for each of us to just anticipate our day, our week, anticipate who we're going to be around and what challenges those might bring.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And do you have any other techniques in terms of self-soothing that you think could be beneficial for highly sensitive people?
SPEAKER_01Of course, there are so many techniques, and I think I think they all are beneficial, but I like to um just make certain that a person has started to listen to their own inner voice, which then I think will lead them to the technique or tool that works best for them. Yes, grounding meditation. I love internal family systems and getting to know the different parts of ourselves. I think um tapping is is is important. I think therapy with EMPR for trauma and brain spotting. I mean, there's so many wonderful tools available to all of us. Um, so I I don't think I have a favorite simply because we're all so unique.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so drawing on a lot of different techniques, and I agree with that. I think different techniques work for different people, right? And like you said, we are we are unique.
SPEAKER_01And I would like to say, I would like to say again that these tools and techniques that we often think of as HSPs, quote, meeting, which I'm not going to be in denial about, but I also think the other 80% need these techniques and tools as well, so that they become in touch with their own inner um inner voice.
SPEAKER_00I I agree with that. And when you said that, it just reminded me of this idea that you know, we're not obviously being highly sensitive people, we're not um in a distinct or separate box, right? We're not trying to categorize ourselves as being completely separate from other people. I always talk about the fact that we're on uh the it's a spectrum of sensitivity, right? So we all have different levels of being sensitive to the world around us. And I think for me it's important to highlight that, yeah, we're not a separate entity in that way, right? So, as you said, we all need these tools and resources to help us navigate the world that we live in right now.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, and to shape the world that we live in according to higher values that appear to be missing in a lot of areas.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and um you mentioned EMDR. I'm wondering, could you just explain briefly what what that is? Because some of the listeners might not have heard of EMDR before. Sure.
SPEAKER_01It's um it's a it's a therapeutic intervention that's used especially for trauma, but it can be used for you know small tea traumas, such as you know, witnessing a dog get run over in the freeway or a major trauma, um, a large tea trauma. And EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization, reprocessing therapy. And it's proven to be a really profound um, I will go so far as to say, kind of mysterious and magical uh way to resolve trauma and have the left and right sides of the brain integrate trauma into a higher uh level of understanding so that one can go from a sense of being affected by trauma and in your body and your mind and your heart to eventually just sort of stepping outside and observing trauma from a different space. Um so it's just a really profound therapeutic intervention, and there's a new one, fairly new one now called brain spotting, which is somewhat similar, but there it's just a way of healing from trauma and reprocessing um events in your life.
SPEAKER_00And in terms of trauma, do you have you noticed that highly sensitive people are impacted or affected more so by traumatic events or experiences?
SPEAKER_01I would have to say yes to that from my own personal and professional experience. And again, because we've inherited a more finely tuned nervous system. So therefore, we're more responsive, as we know, to the environment, whether positive or negative. So the more negative, the more we suffer. The more positive, the more we thrive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And I know just before we started this podcast, we were talking briefly about the number of, I will call them traumatic events that are occurring in the world today, right now, and just how challenging that is for so many sensitive people, um, because we are so in tune with um, yeah, the the impact and the effect of these global issues that we're all facing right now. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01And I I don't, yeah, we we are, and and I'm often asked, so what advice do I have for highly sensitive people? And I turn that around and I say, what advice do I have for myself? Because quite frankly, yes, I go to my HSP inner sanctuary and I am able to self-soothe. And and prayer is a big part of my life, and but still I am still highly affected. Um, every day I'm highly affected by world events, and I can't help but here in Colorado, we have smoky, smoky skies, which are usually a brilliant blue, from relentless wildfires in the west here in the US. Um, but just yesterday, for example, I got out into nature for about three hours. My husband and I went on this favorite hike, and it started raining, and the smoke cleared, and we were wet, and we were sitting under a tree, and it smelled like earth, and and I could see the blue sky, and for three hours I felt like I felt so uh relieved, so grateful, so hopeful.
SPEAKER_00So I look for moments like that. Yeah, that's really inspiring, and I agree, those finding those moments of gratitude is so important. And at the same time, uh you reminded me of something you said earlier about is is this a battle I want to take on? Because sometimes I feel like there's yeah, there's so many um issues and dilemmas that we're facing right now, personally and collectively. And I have to ask myself, yeah, what can I take on? What do I need to set a boundary with? Because um, to try and address or um contemplate all of it is overwhelming. It's too much for me. So this idea of, yeah, what can we, where do we want to focus our energy? Where can we take action? And obviously, again, that's different for everyone, right?
SPEAKER_01Exactly, exactly. But I do think, you know, action is an antidote to despair. And I love when um Elaine Aaron tucks in the documentary sensitively untold story, towards the end, she is saying to HSPs, so dear HSPs, I beg of you, please speak out. So to me, I interpreted that, please choose a battle, any battle, please speak out. Um, you know, get involved with other like-minded groups. I'm I'm grateful to be associated with several social action groups here in Colorado and and beyond, um, where I try to make a difference. Um couple years ago, I took however small action I could take, I would I would call my elected representatives at least once a day, and just taking that tiny bit of action um at least helped me feel like I was doing something.
SPEAKER_00And in relation to that, talking about taking action, what would you say inspires you or drives you to do the work you do with highly sensitive people?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it just comes from I think getting back to um spirituality. And for me, um, I've always been a very strong spiritual seeker, a seeker of truth. And I've been aware of ever since I started doing interior listening, which was probably in my early when early to mid-twenties when I was able to move to San Francisco, where diversity of thought, feeling, and action was not only encouraged, it was expected. And for the first time in my life, I was, oh my gosh, I get to be free. And so in in that process, I was just became aware of a really deep sense of an inner calling. It's almost like a calling of a sense of being called home. And um, it's a spiritual path that I've simply learned to respond to instead of manage. So it just inspires me every day. Um I I love um here in Colorado, uh, we know, we know and love John Denver, who passed away many, many years ago. But his song Rocky Mountain High, there's this one verse at the beginning that says something like, I was born in the summer of my 27th year, coming home to a place I've never been before. So for me, it it was just this process of coming home to a place I'd never been before and and trusting that home, and it inspires me to just respond to my spiritual path instead of manage it.
SPEAKER_00That's really beautiful. Thank you for sharing. And I'm really uh fascinated or interested by this um idea of the being a spiritual seeker or being on the spiritual path. And I was just wondering what your perspective is, because I believe as highly sensitive people, we we seem to be more drawn towards uh spiritual seeking, if we want to call it that, or being on the spiritual path, or finding our inner calling. And for me, there appears to be something uh relevant there in terms of us finding our soul purpose. And of course, again, everybody has a desire to find their soul purpose, but I feel there's something um something uh stronger in us in terms of needing to find that.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, Jules, I would I would agree with you on that, and it's a it's a very complex question, isn't it? Um but I know Elaine Aaron has has often referred to us as Numinous, which is light seeking. Um and she has a beautiful article. Um, if you go to her website, ageusbirth.com, or just or just put in an internet search on Elaine Aaron Numinous, highly sensitive people. Right, yeah. I've read that yeah I love that article. Yeah, but um I think we have this yearning for light, we have this yearning for for a higher love, a higher, a higher way of being in the world. And I don't think it's an easy, it's not an easy path. It's it's but but neither is not being on it easy. And so, and I think this idea of soul purpose, I think sometimes it can be greatly misunderstood by by many people and that, oh, I have to discover this huge soul purpose in life. And and I say, no, you have to let it un have to let it reveal itself to you. Uh, when I was um home with my two children, um I think they were probably three and one, and I was feeling so frustrated. I was feeling either completely overstimulated or completely understimulated, and I was feeling, you know, what am I doing with my life? I'm this feminist and I'm changing diapers and hanging diapers on the line because I didn't want to throw things in the landfill. And I was just like, you know, what am I doing with my life? And um this small voice came out of nowhere. It's the first time I've ever experienced a clear audience. This voice came out of nowhere and it said, You could very well be doing it. I was like, oh, but I'm just hanging dadders on the line, I'm just making cookies, I'm just, I'm just, just, just. And I swear, probably the following week I saw an ad in a Pyrene magazine about how to start a mother center. And again, another synchronistic long story short, that led me to um starting a mother center in my community. I put a little ad in the paper. 25 people showed up. I didn't know what to do with them. A year later, we were a nonprofit with we were empowering women or actually the primary caregivers to um focus on their needs and to meet their needs together. So it was very similar to the work I did with HSPs. It led me back to getting a degree in social work and counseling. So again, I think our sole purpose is often we we think it's not in front of us, but for me, raising children was a part of my sole purpose. Uh, it didn't seem huge at the time, but looking back on it, it was a very important part of my steps toward my journey.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. And I think it's a great reminder that, yeah, this sole purpose is, as you said, not necessarily this huge um distant vision that we can't grasp onto, but it's often there right in front of us, and it and it's about trusting and letting it unfold as it is, and embracing it as it is and and loving it as it as it is.
SPEAKER_01And you posted that beautiful video from Ramdas this morning on your page, and it was talking about, you know, focus on what you love. Do you love the leaves in autumn? Then love that. Do you love the smell of earth? Then love that. Do you love, you know, raising your children, then love that. It's it's just like loving what's before you, um or or not everything, but discerning what what is most important to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And I know that's been a huge message to me lately, uh, which is part of why I posted that video, and I can put the link in the show notes for people, but um, this idea of following what we love or following our joy. Um, for me, I've been yeah, getting this message over and over again at the moment to just keep following the joy, and you never know where that might lead to, right? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And isn't that what differential susceptibility is all about? I was so keenly aware of that yesterday, sitting under this tree as it was raining about differential susceptibility. You know, um, we thrive in positive environments. You know, I agree, not everyone would agree that sitting under a tree in the rain was a positive environment. So you have to choose what's positive for you. But again, differential susceptibility when we are when we are surrounding our things, ourselves with things that nurture us and that which would be things that we love, um, we can't help to but to respond in a different way.
SPEAKER_00Right, absolutely, yeah. And that that idea, that uh concept of as and thriving in that, thriving in the positive or nourishing and nurturing environments. And I know you mentioned that earlier, this idea of a vantage sensitivity, which is yes, we we struggle a lot with traumatic events, but when we can find those moments of of joy, of uh self-nurturing and nourishment, uh, whatever that means for us, then yeah, there's so much beauty that we can take from that experience. And yeah, I think that's such an important reminder. Do you have a favorite book or quote that you'd like to share for our listeners today? Is there anything that stands out to you as being really important?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I wasn't gonna mention Ram Das because he's he's a mentor of mine from the early, early 70s and he's passed away now. Um and but you posted that beautiful video. So the book I was gonna mention was Be Here Now. And and it's just kind of it was kind of a it's kind of a controversial book in a way, but it was just really, really a profound book for me to read back in the 70s. And of course, Elaine Aaron's book are are my favorites. I always recommend those. But the quote I will share again from from Elaine Aaron, which kind of mirrors my own work, is uh this is from um a journal article called Counseling the Highly Sensitive Person, which was published back in '96, but I still find that article so relevant. And I don't even think you can get it anymore, but I use it at all. I hand it out to all my HSP gathering retreat participants. But her quote says HSPs are encouraged to view their work on their inner lives, their psychological or spiritual insights, their relationships and family life as significant contributions to the culture. They must have the courage to think differently, to liberate themselves to a certain extent from their culture's view, and to create rather than consume cultural values. And then another book that changed my life that helped me sort of get off this dominant, helped free me from this these dominant cultural messages that I internalized, which tended to keep me small as a woman and even as an HSP, uh, was a book called Pink on These Things by Krishna Murphy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I love uh from the quote you just shared, um, I think it was to create rather than consume cultural values. Yeah, correct. Yeah, and I think that's so powerful and so important. Especially, I find that highly sensitive people, we we have such a desire to create, you know, that's also something which I I know in myself I can really feel that that desire to want to create and to um yeah, make a difference, to make a difference in the world and and to to want to speak up about as I said earlier, about my truths or what I believe in. But of course, as we've pointed out, there can be a lot of struggle with that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but when we do, um I think inevitably we become emotional leaders. Uh, we become we we become part of a of a paradigm shift. And um yeah, it's not it's not easy. And there's a chat chapter in my book that's been writing in itself, and it's called The Irony of the Reluctant Priestly Advisor. And it's sort of like we're called to create, we're called to express, and when we do, uh the light shines on us, either with negative repercussions, as we've both experienced, I think, as women, and and I'm sure sensitive men as well. But even when for my own journey, even when I was getting and still do get often at times, but especially in the beginning of my work that's been going on for 25 years, all these people coming to me and wanting to know, you know, I was just just wanting to hear me or come to my retreats, it was just like almost too much. It was the light was shining on me, and I was like, oh no, I I want to shrink back to being small. And isn't that an irony that we're called to speak out and we do, and we know we have emotional intelligence to share, and then we get all this attention, and and I I've struggled with that attention, quite frankly. And uh I've learned to to manage it, of course, and move forward with my message. Thank you to people like you who you know are doing interviews and podcasts and allowing perspectives to be heard.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I can relate completely to what you just said. This I'm because I'm also introverted naturally. I've had to work on my more extroverted side and to um yeah, to speak up and and to share my message with the world. And it I've definitely had a long journey with that. Um and I think finding It relates actually to what you said before about the um connecting with our inner to interior listening. And for me, it's about listening to my intuition and knowing when I need to take a break or take a step back and nurture myself so that I can then step forward again in a way that feels like it's coming from a place of me feeling nourished and not burning myself out. So in the past, I've definitely burnt myself out by trying to take on too much. So I think, yeah, finding this balance and only we can discern when too much is too much or when we need to take a step back. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And that's something that I also uh one of the mottos at the HSP Gavin Retreats that has just revealed itself over the years is trust the process, even if feeling vulnerable or confused or anxious, always asking, what is there for me to learn in this moment? And most importantly, what do I need in this moment? And to take that on a much larger scale, it's just exactly what you said. To me, it's not, it's it's responding to what's happening in my day in my world instead of managing it. Because when I get into managing and setting a business goal that, well, in five years I'm going to have reached X amount of people and earned this amount of money. I get it doesn't work for me. And that's just me. It doesn't work for me. Um so for me, it's just trusting the process and like you said, knowing when I'm showing up authentically and when I'm pushing.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, so responding rather than managing, I really like that as well. So we're coming close to the end now. Um, and it's been so wonderful to talk to you about all of these topics. And I'm just wondering, is there anything else you'd like to share? Is there anything you feel like we've missed from um the the questions today?
SPEAKER_01Oh, you know, one little minor thing that is uh hopefully worth mentioning. I I know we talk a lot, we talk a lot about being deeply intuitive and following our intuition. And and I've been certified in the Myers Briggs since gosh 91 and done it with oh gosh, probably over thousands of people. But I just want to say that in that there are many highly sensitive people who would be like an ISTJ, an ISFJ, an ESTP, or an ESFP, which are kind of in the minority of HSPs, by the way, who's for whom intuition is their least preferred function. So a lot of HSPs I've worked with, they go, you know, I don't really trust my intuition. And so I don't think I'm an HSP because you know I don't follow it. And I and I think intuition is a learned skill, something that comes more naturally to many HSPs, myself included. But but it doesn't necessarily mean I I found it's it's not it's not easy for all HSPs, especially just from the Myers-Briggs perspective, if that's a perspective that you know one one finds helpful. I I found it helpful over the years.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, and I'm just curious, have you noticed a correlation? Uh just to clarify, is there a correlation between uh HSP and what you might come out as on the Meijer Briggs uh test?
SPEAKER_01Um oh absolutely. Um I've kept I've kept my informal statistics on that. Yeah, and yes, and I say that the majority of highly sensitive people I have found are in FPs, followed by INFJ, followed by surprisingly ENFP. And then we get into the ISFJ and um ESFJs, and then the NTs. So there's these temperaments, the NF temperament, intuitive feeling temperament, and the NT, intuitive logical temperaments. So the NTs, the ENTPs, the INTJs, they would be further down the line. But that's certainly been um every time I do the Myers Briggs class, um I have a limit of six to each class, and over the years, it's always been INFP shows up the exactly INFP the most, INFJ. Then we always have one or one IN ENFP and and yeah, on down the line.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that's really interesting. I'm actually an INFJ, so um there I am in the majority there, the HSPs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and then let's talk briefly if we have time, is about and what I think is so powerful from the Myers-Briggs perspective is if the majority of us are of the NF temperament or INFP or INFJ or ENFP, and we think about the dominant culture in America, and I think in the Western world even, uh, it would be extroversion and perceiving things specifically and factually, and taking that specific and factual information and putting it into a logical order, so it would be thinking and to be structured in on time. And so we live in an ESTJ world, and the further we are from that, the more we might have felt that we were swimming upstream. So I think the the message for that is um that I teach my Myers-Briggs is that, and Tracy Cooper talks about this, that we need to take our creative intuition but combine it with uh logical, rational thought, um, our creative thought and and in logical thought. I'm not sure exactly how he phrases that, but you know, it's like, yes, those of us who are intuitive and feeling, those are our gifts and our visions and our passions and what we have to offer the world. And we need to use specific facts and logic in service to those visions, not instead of because there's something wrong with us, but to use them in service to who we are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I can say also from personal experience, I used to work as a primary school teacher for a number of years, and I know that in the education system, mainstream education anyway, unfortunately, um those gifts of intuition and feeling are not necessarily valued in in children. They're not seen as being the most important um thing that we need to learn or cultivate. And um, yeah, I definitely feel passionate about us encouraging children to tap into their gifts of intuition and sense and you know, feeling and how they interact with the world and knowing knowing it's valid, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I'm certain that the stories that we hear about about children who, like let's say are 10 or whatever, and they saw a homeless person on the street and they come home and they tell their parents, and then their parents help them do something about it. Like, well, why don't you, you know, get it, you know what? I've seen so many stories where you know children have been moved by something, and so they use specific facts and logic to do something about it, like start a campaign and earn money. And and so it's it's we have to go beyond just being concerned and passionate about something to action. And and that's where you know, utilizing them this Myers Briggs from Carl Young's full-type spiritual development is is using all those together to take action on our passions. And um so it's kind of an exciting time and a and a challenging time. Uh, but I appreciate people like you in the world who are out there making a difference.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, thank you so much. And and the same for you and all of the amazing work that you've been doing over the past decades. And um, I'm really inspired by everything you've shared today. So thank you for being on the podcast. And is there anywhere in particular you'd like to direct uh listeners? Uh do you have a specific website that you can share with listeners today?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I have a it's actually a newly launched website. Much much overdue. It's simply jackwall and strickwin.com.
SPEAKER_00Okay, brilliant. So I will put that in the show notes for everyone, and also all of the resources and materials that we've spoken about today, I can list those so people can access those easily. So thank you again.
SPEAKER_01Yes, thank you, Jules. It was lovely to uh spend time with you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for joining me this week on Highly Sensitive Humans. Make sure to visit my website, highly sensitivehumans.com, where you can subscribe to the show and find out more about my upcoming workshops, my online eight-week course, and where I also offer one-to-one coaching for highly sensitive people. And if you found value in the show today, I'd really appreciate a rating. Or if you'd simply share this episode with your friends or other highly sensitive people, that would help support this podcast.