Exploring Diversity and the Spectrum of Highly Sensitive People with Jole Berlage-Buccellati

In this episode, I speak with Jole Berlage-Buccellati about the importance of exploring the spectrum and diversity of experience found within the Highly Sensitive Person. We discuss the connection between HSP and trauma, HSP and being a change-marker and how HSPs are often high-potential individuals.

Jole Berlage-Buccellati's path led her from two degrees in science (biology/anthropology) and a minor in music, to a certification as a Pilates trainer with Alan Herdman. Years of training in Karate and Modern Dance taught her about the organized flow of life energy and the focused mind approach inherent in both. A master’s degree in music therapy allowed me to fuse these various threads into an integral and innovative approach to support highly-sensitives. Certifications as an Energy Codes Facilitator (Dr. Sue Morter) and in Embodied Processing deepened her understanding of the human energy system and qualified her to work with trauma. A few years ago, she created Qi- Pilates to support her clients in reconnecting with their bodies in a deep way. 

 Jole Berlage-Buccellati's Website: https://integralcoreproject.com/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:31

So welcome Lily and thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I'm really excited and looking forward to this conversation.

SPEAKER_05 0:40

Thanks very much for having me, and I'm also excited to discuss something in depth with you.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

So obviously, this podcast is all about being highly sensitive, and I always like to ask, what's your experience of being highly sensitive? Is it something you relate to personally?

SPEAKER_05 1:01

Yes, very much so. Though for many years I didn't have a word for it, I didn't have a label for it. Um other than you know, in part Italian. My mother was Italian, so there is actually a word for it in Italian, um, which basically refers to the to the vagus nerve, to to that part of our system that then it says that you have a sensitive part of that system. So um, but it was usually in many times framed as a problem, as a dysfunction. Um so when I came across Elaine Aaron's book, um, somebody actually a friend gave it to me and said, Look, yeah, you really need to read this because you fit that a hundred percent. And you know, I was already working as a coach and as a therapist, and it was like an epiphany for me. It was like, oh, okay. Um, because it helps human beings to have labels for things, it helps to have some sort of category or something that you can refer to rather than sort of just having this vague sense of being different. So, to answer your question, I think I've always known, even as a young child, that I was different.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Absolutely, and I agree that the label does give us a framework, a way of understanding our experience and how we experience the world in a different way. And I know that you refer to high sensitivity or HSP as a spectrum, you define it as a spectrum. So I'm wondering, could you talk a bit more about that? How do you understand it as being a spectrum?

SPEAKER_05 2:53

Yeah, I'd love to. Thanks for that question. So, you know, once I sort of understood that this was um a temperament or something that people to a large degree are born with, I realized that most of the clients that came to me were actually highly sensitive people. You know, that's how it works. Many times we attract the people that actually need our support or that are similar to what you know, what we can offer. And so I I really dug deep, you know, being also a scientist. I started out as a biologist, actually. So um, there's always a part of me that says I want to understand. And working with people, it either just occurred to me that there are high sensitivity is not one thing, that the people that were in front of me had different traits, they had a different emphasis on a combination of traits, let's put it that way. And I then realized different clusters need different help or different support because they have another, use that word again, a different set of challenges. Um, and then I also, you know, and then within that process I realized that my thinking, high sensitivity and high empathy is mixed too often into one bag. Um I know quite a few of highly sensitive people that you know would fit into that category that are not highly empathic. They just have this antenna, and I think this antenna for the emotions of other people sometimes gets too much mixed up with that trait of empathy, of high empathy. Um so at a certain point, because I'm very interested in in the highly sensitive that carry that trait of leadership, of wanting to really bring change to our society and to the world, that have this impetus of you know, I'm going to have to do it, or I'm I I want to do it. Yeah. Um, I realized that in order to do that, I needed to differentiate. And so I came up with that spectrum that for the moment um, you know, is that you you have all the the traits that Elaine Aaron describes in her her D O E S. Yeah depths of processing, the overstimulation, emotional reactivity or empathy, and then sensing the subtle, which is something I think that makes makes you a highly sensitive person. But then you can have um you know individuals that have high sensitivity, uh high empathy added in on top of it, meaning they have two things that they actually have to deal with. You're very, very empathic and you you you are highly sensitive. Um, you will have different challenges than somebody who's highly sensitive, um, but is what I call a change maker. Yeah, so that would be another category, and within that spectrum, or you have introverts and extroverts, they have a different way of expressing high sensitivity, then you have people that are also, let's call them high potential people. Yeah, not every HSP has a high potential. Um, but if let's say you you are an HSP, you're highly, highly empathic, and you also are very, very intelligent or gifted in one particular way, you have three challenges, not just one. And that needs a different kind of support because you want something else on this planet, you have another purpose on this planet. You um see what I'm getting at?

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Absolutely, and I really appreciate what you're saying. It relates to something I was writing about recently, actually, where I was describing how I think a lot of the time when we talk about high sensitivity, we put everyone into one category. So we believe that all highly sensitive people experience the world in the same way. However, I don't believe that's the case, similar to what you're saying, that there's a lot of subcategories within that umbrella of high sensitivity. So I think it's really important to um separate those categories out and really understand how there are there's a lot of diversity within high sensitivity itself, and that's what you're speaking to.

SPEAKER_05 7:45

Yes, yes, thank you for summarizing that well. Yeah, and being a therapist, I I you know I'm confronted with people not confronted, but I have clients that have you know quite a number of challenges, and if I give all of them the same kind of um food, let's use that analogy, um, I'm not actually very effective.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Right, absolutely. So, how do you begin to be able to differentiate, you know, who you're working with? How do you how are you able to identify if someone has high levels of empathy or low levels? And you spoke about change makers, and I wanted to ask you more about that because I know that's your area of speciality. So, yeah, how do you differentiate between the different subtypes of sensitivity?

SPEAKER_05 8:44

So, I guess I use one HSP trait most, I listen. I listen right, yeah. And um, you know, it helped me to sort of let's say it gets go back to science to have those categories because the categories, as you said, give me give me a framework into which now I can actually also listen and and and sense into certain qualities when I work with somebody. Yeah, so if somebody, for example, has a lot of overwhelm, um, maybe we could talk about that as well because I think the energetic level is so important with highly sensitive people. Um, it's usually not talked about, yeah, but just let me divert just I think we are um electromagnetic beings, and I believe we have an energy field. And that is what highly sensitive people actually pick up. That's a huge part on where we spend time, yeah. Energy field. So if I have a client who's very overwhelmed emotionally, very overwhelmed, talking a lot about other people, about helping other people, about supporting other people, about you know, I, you know, I get sort of interested. I'm like, oh, okay, do I have somebody in front of me who is very traumatized and uses that as a mechanism to regulate, yeah, and to be accepted, or is that a person who is just highly empathic by trait, by temperament? And that's how I start to differentiate. If somebody sits in front of me and says, you know, I have this deep sense that I want to move something in that and that area, and I'm so frustrated I can't do it because my body is constantly overwhelmed, or because I can't find community. I I know I have somebody in front of me who carries that trait of change maker or change leader. Some people, some of my clients will say, I'd love to support someone who is um leading change. And you know, so it's these kinds of clues that I'm after when I work with people. And I always like, I mean, the first question I ask my clients is what do you love? What do you enjoy? What makes life good for you? So I actually flip it around to what many coaches or or therapists do because I firmly believe if we don't have that trajectory, we will not go anywhere. Stay in solving problems, and we can do that until we jump into the last box, you know. It's just there will always be something that is challenging. So it's so important to to go to a place of what makes me happy. What what is um how can I say that? What is my my inner structure and am I going to follow it that?

SPEAKER_04 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

And there's a couple of things you've said which I really appreciate. One is listening to the person in front of you, using that as a primary tool, because even though we're saying the labels are really helpful, I believe that we need to go past the labels. And when we're working with someone, it's so important to work with their unique, um, yeah, unique temperament, unique traits, traits, and who the person actually is in front of us rather than which category they fit into. Um, yeah, and then you're speaking about connecting with the person's individual purpose in life too. What make what helps them move forward? So I know you talk about change makers and change leaders. So I'm wondering if you could help us, yeah, define those terms and how you see them as different from each other.

SPEAKER_05 12:54

Hmm. No, happy to, you know, I insinuated it a bit already in the sense that um a change maker is somebody who, you know, every change leader is also a change maker. It's you know, define it that way. And I think it's the better way to to explain it. So the leader, and that's already in the word, actually gets up and says, I will do this, I will lead in this particular area with a particular issue that is dear to my heart. Um, and the change maker can also be somebody who says, I will support the change leader because I see a necessity for change. And that is a very important thing. If you're a leader and you have no one who supports you, you're going nowhere. Yeah. But you you need that you need people with that change maker quality that will actually invest in your project. Not I'm not saying necessarily in financial terms, but invest in in that, yeah, that's necessary. That needs to move, that have that sense of um that needs to change, which is an essential trait of many HSPs. We can talk about that as well if you like. But not every HSP has that structure, inner structure, and that's where I really liked. Um, you know, we talked briefly about that. The um the podcast you did with Sasha Chapman that talked about um high sensation seeking, which was an eye-opener to me really, because um it it uh taught me something about myself I wasn't quite aware of. Before I was aware of it as something working in me, but I didn't have a label for it, which I now do. Um, and it made me think whether actually highly sensitive change leaders have that trait, and I think I should probably include that in my spectrum, um, because it has that element of daring, of having that impulse of that comes from inside of I can do this, and I want to do this, even if it's challenging with other parts of my high sensitivity, like it challenges my nervous system, or it challenges all beliefs that I have, or it challenges my introvert, but I need to do this, and that's the change leader.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Yeah, and it's also something I can really relate to personally, and I know that you have this belief that most highly sensitive people are change makers. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_05 15:40

Yeah, I think one can say it that way. I think that we all care because we sense so much of the subtle, we sense so much of what is in the room. Um, you know, we we could talk about you know the many of these traits. We are system thinkers, we are people that think love complex thinking. And when you structure that way, you realize when things go wrong, you can actually you have this uncanny sense of, you know, I would have to make a movement, which is not easy on a podcast, but it's like you know, it's like a radar screen where things pop up, and because we have that ability of depth of processing and love for systems and complex things, which you know can be a problem, but it's also a huge gift because we are the ones that say, Oh, look, there, there, right, and that I think relates to that change maker aspect of because we are so community-oriented, let's let's get together, guys, and do something about this. Okay, so it's not that alpha type of, I want to really stress that, it's a different kind of leadership to what at this point, you know, the the the aggressive sort of lone wolf. Um, I will, you know, pull people into this and I will make them do what I need to, you know, it's not that kind of leadership, and I I call it the sensitives way of leadership. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

So yeah. So could you describe a bit more about what that looks like? You mentioned community bringing people together, and how else might that show up in highly sensitive change makers or change leaders?

SPEAKER_05 17:31

So um there's maybe another important thing I should um I should bring into the game here. And that is that highly sensitive people need to change the narrative about themselves in order to do what we are talking about. What I will explain in a moment, this kind of sensitive ways leadership. We need to actually remember our gifts. Okay. So and in tandem with that is what I really believe, and that is part of my work, is that we are the missing link in in what needs to change in the society. I mean, you just look around, there's chaos everywhere, things are systems are breaking apart, there's a high degree of complexity, there is a lot of disorientation um around us. So having said that, if you take these traits of highly sensitive systems thinkers, complex thinking, we want to decide things in community. We are very good at reading the room, we are really good at uh usually explaining things and talking to people and reaching some sort of consensus. So it's not my way, it's the highway. So and the highly creative aspect that we have, all of these things make for a leader completely different kind of leadership from I'm the alpha male or female in this room, and we need quick fixes for everything because in you know we have to report numbers in in three months or six months. Um, it's that leadership that understands complexity, that understands complex dynamic systems, that understands the human condition, because we are so exposed to our humanity and to our bodies. I think you know, we could spend some time talking about that as well. We cannot hide. We cannot be effective and hide between behind a body armor, like a lot of the old leaders could. Yeah, that lone wolf thing. So, what we bring to the table is that combination, that very special combination of looking at problems, solving problems, um, addressing problems and structures. I hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

It does, it really does. And I'm really stuck on this uh statement where you said we are the missing link. And I also believe that to be true. And in a way, I see how, and you were describing this, I see how as sensitive people we have this ability to assimilate a lot of information and process that information. And in a way, we're like alchemists, we have this ability to work with that energy and then be able to pull it out in into the world, and I think that's what you're speaking to, and that really is a gift, and that really is a different way of working and facilitating change and transformation, exactly, and it needs us to change the narrative because otherwise we are disempowered if we stay in that victim state, right?

SPEAKER_05 21:07

Um, you know, and we maybe we spend some time talking about trauma as well, if you like, but um, it's my profound belief, and maybe that is my mission, is to help us to step up that responsibility because I also think it's actually a responsibility that we have for the greater good, for society, for the world, for the earth. Um, and this is a time when we need to step up.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 21:36

My hypothesis, that's my belief. Follow me on that one, but that is my mission.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

I agree, and I would like to talk about trauma and how that ties into all of this. But before I ask you about that, I'm wondering, and you have alluded to it already, but what kind of change do you think is needed in society? In us.

SPEAKER_05 22:02

Well, I think that the hierarchical I can never pronounce the right words, um, are not serving us anymore. You know, that's one of the things. Then, you know, we all know there are many systems that actually don't serve the population any longer. They're sort of self-serving, they've turned into self-serving systems, uh, like many parts of the financial system, the economy, you know, in the economy there's so much that works in a frame of uh survival of the fittest. And um very many most of the resources going to a few. Yeah. Um our school system is a school system that is 150 years old. Um it doesn't actually cater to um diverse, open-minded, curious human beings. Um we are very much trained to stay on the mental plane all the time.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

Right.

SPEAKER_05 23:09

And that is something that is exceedingly exhausting to HSPs. Even the ones that are high potential or that love, like in my case, I love science, I think it's it's a wonderful thing, but it can also be very narrow-minded. Yeah, and it can just stay a mind game. And because our our bodies are so our whole system is so wired for connection and for receiving input, if we don't understand the body, if we don't understand the energetic and emotional, um what's the English word for that? Emotional planes of our beingness, we cannot function. And in a way, that is a mirror of our society. Okay, you have this thing of go back to your body but get more fit, have a six-pack. It doesn't say, you know, it's beginning to change. Reconnect with your sensuality, reconnect with your feeling body, understand that you're more than just what you think. So it's that kind of contribution, it's that kind of change. Um, that we can't help if we want to, if we are going to heal, that's what we bring to the world.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Absolutely. And I really agree with that. And I often speak about other ways of knowing and uh high sensitive, highly sensitive people, how we know information, not just through the mind, but through energy, through the body, what you're speaking to. And it's so important that we validate those ways of knowing and include them.

SPEAKER_05 24:49

You know, not just for HSPs, we are talking about that before. I mean, for everyone, because you know, being a biologist, I deeply understand that we are feeling beings, we are feeling beings, not thinking beings. I mean, the master is the feeling body, the sensuality, this being present in the world and and just um feeling the wind and the sun and and other people and community, and and it's not about the servant, the mind is the servant here. And because of the way we are structured, we cannot help but being that way. And we get ill if we don't accept that.

SPEAKER_04 25:29

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:31

We can also teach other people that are not HSPs because they also have this hunger. I mean, you can it's everywhere, it's all over Instagram, and I mean, any course you can book is about reconnection, reconnection, reconnection. But many times it's still on the plane of I'm gonna fix that problem.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Right, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 25:52

And that doesn't work. It's not about fixing a problem, it's about going from the inside out, not from the outside in. And that's what we are really good at.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying there. And in a way that this does segue into the link with trauma too. Um, and I say that because I see a lot of people talking about fixing or getting over trauma and that needing to be something which we recover from. I have a slightly different perspective on that, but I'm curious, what do you see as the link between trauma and high sensitive high sensitivity?

SPEAKER_05 26:34

So I think there doesn't need to be a link, but there is a link by function of our society because the way we grow up, um, because there is so much dysfunctionality in human beings and in our society for HSPs and non-HSPs. I mean, adverse childhood experiences are galore. You know, yeah, so it starts very, very early that this binding process that safety, safety of being in our body and safety of being in a relationship goes wrong for a lot of people, not just HSPs. HSPs, however, because our nervous system is so wired to for receiving impulses and understanding and and um connecting, it does a lot more damage, even more damage than it does to other children. So you there's this whole question, for example, with ADD and ADHD and other things, whether that is actually also partly due to trauma. So you get a lot of highly sensitive children that also develop ADD or ADHD. And that is very often not understood. Um, and that's where it starts. Then you go for many, actually, it already starts also in the family of this square peg in a round ball. Yeah, I'm different, I'm not understood, I'm not seen, I'm not heard, I'm not loved. Then you go to school, for example, I was bullied from day one in school, from day one, from day one to the last day of my school days. I was bullied. Okay, so um, it leaves you with a deep sense of dysregulation, it leaves you with a deeply dysregulated body and a dysregulated way of communicating with other people. And that is trauma.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

Right.

SPEAKER_05 28:35

So I I want to say it again, I firmly believe that the temperament of HSP is not a traumatic temperament, it doesn't invite trauma in that sense. So when I work with people, I I try and differentiate what about this person, about the dysregulation of this person or the HSP aspects of this person, let's put it that way, is actually due to trauma and not due to the high sensitivity. And I think that is a very important part of the process because otherwise you always end up again with the victim. So when you can understand that the sensing the subtle is a gift, you need to understand that whatever is not a gift about that is probably trauma, or you being in a society that does not suit you, not the other way around.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Yeah, brilliant. And I think again, it's really important to separate the two. And I often use the example of anxiety, so a lot of people believe that anxiety is innate or connected with the temperament of HSP, but it's not. You're not necessarily going to be an anxious person because you're highly sensitive, it is a result of your childhood environment or yeah, even environments later in life where we don't feel aligned.

SPEAKER_05 30:04

Yeah, totally, totally.

SPEAKER_03 30:07

Yeah, so I'm really glad you brought that up because I think that's a big myth in terms of what it means to be highly sensitive.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

I agree, and that they're back to claiming the narrative. Also, what society tells us ah, you're always anxious, or you cannot do this, or you're so sensitive, or you sit in front of a movie and you cry. I mean, come on, you know. I'm like, at this point, I'm like, yeah, I cry, so at least I'm able to feel this. I, you know, exactly. You're not apparently, or you don't allow yourself, but I do. You know, I'm happy to feel great sadness and great love and great joy. I remember my mother telling me that, and that you know, from the Italian side, because I have a slightly different interpretation on it. She said, But look, Yolia, you have so much more depth of perceiving the world and being the world and understanding poetry and art, and and now I mean I'm a lot older. I'm like, yeah, she was right. And I'm happy with it now. I'm like, let me cry. Who cares?

SPEAKER_03 31:16

Yeah, and I, you know, as you're saying that I really wish, and I think it's such a shame that there's so many children who are hearing a different narrative and are building that narrative that we, as you're saying, we need to move away from because they're being told from a young age, yeah, it's not okay to cry, it's not okay to have the intensity of the emotions they're having.

unknown 31:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

And that really, really needs to shift. And I hope it is shifting, but I think we still have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_05 31:49

Definitely, and there's also the intensity of our thinking, the depths of our thinking. I'm countless times I've had people tell me they're so intense, you know, and I would draw back and draw back and do less, and and that's not the correct way to do it, because that again is a gift. You might need to learn where it's appropriate, and where it's not appropriate, yeah, to to go to these depths because it might overwhelm other people, so it's also a form of respect, yeah. But in itself, um, that intensity is what makes in my case makes me a change leader.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 32:31

So if I take that out of the equation, which I did for a long time, it's like in a sense, like deadening myself, just because there's this label from people that don't have that trait of well, you too much.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

Right.

SPEAKER_05 32:45

Yeah, and claiming our power back and saying, Oh yeah, really? To have that ability, you know, because it doesn't mean just because we're highly sensitive that we don't have power. I mean, I did martial arts for a very long time and for a very good reason, yeah, and it gave me that sense of well, you know, you want to play games with me? Don't think so. And it goes really well with my highly sensitive part, okay?

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Yeah, so knowing it's possible for those to coexist, those energies, they're not actually they're not opposite, they're they're complementary and necessary.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

Exactly well said, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

And I agree that the intensity is really needed in today's society. I mean, as you're speaking to, we just have to look around and see how many problems there are. So for the change and transformation to occur, we need that intensity that HSPs have to initiate that change.

SPEAKER_05 33:57

Yeah, the ones of us that have that trait goes back to that spectrum. Yeah, maybe the talk um, you know, again with Sasha Chapman, she she you know, she talks about that as well. The ones that are wired that way, um yeah, they need to be empowered or they're giving themselves up because it's such a waste.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

And you mentioned ADHD a few minutes ago, and it brings me to another question, something I've been contemplating quite a lot lately. So there's been a lot of discussion on social media, especially about the similarities and differences between HSP, ADHD, autism, all of these different labels. And something I feel really passionate about is instead of us talking about the differences or what is this, what isn't, how do they overlap? It seems there's a bit of a divide happening. Um, I don't know if you've noticed that too. I've just noticed there's been a lot of disagreement. Instead, I believe we need to build um narrative and conversation between these different groups. And I'm wondering, yeah, what do you think about this in terms of there being this dialogue between HSPs and non-HSPs and these other labels that we use to define people?

SPEAKER_05 35:30

So um let me sort of deal with your first question and then go uh back to the non-HSPs. If I forget, please remind me.

SPEAKER_04 35:40

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:41

Um I have a slightly different way of looking at that, and maybe that's due again to the biology background. Um I'm I'm aware of that discussion. I've only been aware of it for about three-quarters of a year, so I I cannot say that I'm an expert in this in any way, anyway, clearly. Um but I think we know so little about all the components that lead to ADD or ADHD or even autism. There's this discussion, for example, that it might actually be due to um um toxic ingredients in the environment. Yeah, for example, autism. So there are many hypotheses about how this actually why a person um has that let's challenge, let's call it a challenge. Yeah, and then you're it I find it I find that discussion of labeling things in that sense not very helpful because again, we're back to that discussion of individuality. So for example, for ADD, there's this really interesting approach that says there are sort of um early reflexes that were not integrated into the nervous system that then can lead to ADD. Um, and in my case, for example, addressing that has helped me a lot to calm down my nervous system and that kind of rattling in my brain. Yeah. Then you have the question of nutrition, you have the question of how much of that is actually due to trauma, how much you know, I think it is so again, we're back to complexity. So maybe in one individual, the high sensitivity and the ADD are actually or the um challenging parts of it are actually really due to a high degree of trauma. In another person, it might have been that you know, while the child was developing, there were a lot of toxic metals, or I don't know what um in the mother's bloodstream, and then that's why something else develops. And that's why I'm very careful in this. I see overlapping things and I find the discussion very interesting, but I honestly have to say I haven't made up my mind yet. Maybe I never will sing with complexity. I tend to go with what I learned from very, very good teachers in college, and that is keep several hypotheses next to each other, learn to live with contradictions, which is so important, you know, because we want clarity, but we have to understand that the body and the mind are you know way beyond what we could label and understand in what leads to this, what leads to that.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Um, so I'm humble that way, maybe being humble.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

And I really like how you've described that, just dealing with the complexity and knowing it's not black or white, we won't be able to have a definite answer, or we can't separate them completely from each other.

SPEAKER_05 39:02

Not yet.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Maybe someday we will. Not yet. And then you had a second part of the question. And the notes, right? Yes, exactly. And there being dialogue between so that probably yeah, it ties in with what we said before.

SPEAKER_05 39:19

I'm very much against silos. And I've I can sense in the HSP community there is because we've been bullied so much, there is this let's stick together. Let's we are the better ones, you know, because we're more complex and we mustn't. And I think that is just turning the table and using the same kind of narrative, right? Um, which again divides us, which again makes it difficult to live to have a society where actually neurodiversity is and normal people are just one bat, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:54

Most normal people.

SPEAKER_05 39:56

Um, and if we're referring to the change leader aspect or the change maker aspect, I profoundly believe that there are skills that most highly sensitives don't have. Okay. Um, and we need people that have these skills if you want to build something. Somebody who's maybe less bothered by rejection, somebody who says, Okay, for the moment, yes, we know there's complexity and there are a thousand rabbit holes, but this is what we want to solve that brings us back from, you know, it just gives love to go down a million rabbit holes. We get lost there. If we are in cooperation, and that's a very important word, the cooperation with people that carry other traits, but we have the same goal, we have a similar approach to what we want to reach. We can actually really build something rather than having silos again and not talking to each other. Because how are we going to get this transformation in any direction that will improve the lives of most people if we do not cooperate? We don't understand that it's not just we that are special, non-HSPs are special as well. They have other gifts, and we need to work together, we need to respect each other.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

And I agree with that. I really always speak to the fact that I'm never claiming HSPs are better than because, as you said, it's creating more division and separation and that hierarchy that we're trying to move away from. So I think it's really important. And what I hear you saying is if we work together, our skills are complementary. So as HSPs, we might be lacking certain certain skills in certain areas, but others have other skills that we can combine, and it's very holistic in that way.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 42:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, this change leader um what do you call it, subject or or the mission that I'm on, um is not about let's go let's grasp power. It's about resiliency, it's about uh bringing yourself to the table, about it's about cooperation in community, it's about certain people saying, I I just know in which direction I want to take this, and then um sharing it, being able to share it with others to move something, right? About look how great I am, yeah. Yes, that's the old way, that's the non-sensitive way of leading. You know, I am the alpha animal, so you need aspects of the alpha animal if you want to lead, there's no way around that, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:02

But there's a different emphasis in terms of yeah, having a clear purpose, a mission, a sense of urgency in terms of things needing to change. And I'm just curious because this is something, again, I really relate to. I feel in my soul, in my body, there's this urgency I have to have an impact, to see change and transformation in the world, and I feel really driven by that. I'm wondering, do you have a sense of where that comes from in highly sensitive people? Where does that urgency or what have you observed in the people you've worked with? Do you see any kind of pattern or connection there?

SPEAKER_05 43:53

So we would have to talk about spirit, about the spiritual realm. Yes. Yeah, everyone's flavor. But even if I've worked um especially with men that you know not so eas HSB men that not so easily follow me in that in the end they end up there. So there is something that I find you cannot explain if you don't put uh spirit and soul into the equation. Now there might be people that contest that, but um that is my my belief. And it also if you know if if we understand how human beings are actually built and wired, and there is so much new neuroscience, it is to a certain point. I mean, there are people that will still be in the mechanical world, um, but all all the scientists that you know work with quantum science or work with uh consciousness um start drifting away from this very technical um you know, we're just a bunch of cells trying to survive until we go. So for me, that sense of purpose actually comes from something we bring. We are born, we bring it with us. And we have all the tools to actually do it. It's just that our the way our society is built interferes with it. So if I can just quickly say, for example, in other societies, uh HSPs were shamans, they were maybe not the war leaders but the peace leaders, the healers, yeah, and they were highly respected for it. So there are there are other models for societies, um for you know, having it work in sense of a team.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Yeah, it's having a different purpose, we play a different part in the uh community in that sense.

SPEAKER_05 46:05

Yeah, and maybe because we have let's agree on that term, that soul connection so openly wired. And I say openly wired because is you can't help on seeing and sensing that in other people. Yeah, so it's not something that we can keep to ourselves, it's just I think that is one of the most beautiful things about most HSPs is that when you actually really look at them, and now I have to say I've always been able to read bodies. I can't tell you why, but I read bodies, it is something that's completely obvious that their soul is just here to say, I want to play, I want to be here, I want to feel, I want to experience, I want to have highs and lows, and find out and be creative.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

Yeah, yeah, beautiful, and I really resonate with what you're saying. I do believe also it's uh a soul, a soul purpose, and we have to bring that into the equation. And of course, how you define soul or spirit is up to the individual, you know. We can all define it in a different way, but I I think it's necessary to bring that into the picture.

SPEAKER_05 47:18

Yeah, and sometimes my simple question that that you know, I ask my clients, what do you love is enough. That's what soul is about. What do you love?

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Yeah, beautiful. So I also want to ask you, and this is a question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast: do you have a favorite book quotes? Uh, anything you'd like to share with the listeners today?

SPEAKER_05 47:48

Well, my favorite one of my favorite quotes is by Oscar Wilde, who I think was an incredible human being, and yourself, everyone else is taken.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

Can you say that one more time? Be yourself, everyone else is taken. That's brilliant, isn't it? So simple, but so profound. Very profound. Yeah. Very profound for the path we're on.

SPEAKER_05 48:12

And the book, yeah, um, there's a book that's called Electric Body Electric Health, and it's by Eileen Day McCussick, and it talks about the human biofield.

SPEAKER_04 48:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 48:26

And it really um ex you know, we would kept coming back in this this talk to the energy field to to this other realm that HSP is also good in sensing. And I I really like her approach on this. There are wonderful exercises in there, and she she really builds that up in a way that makes my scientist happy.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

Oh, brilliant, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:54

So I would, you know, who anybody who's interested in seeing how that how you could describe that wiring that I was alluding to, that we are feeling beings. Right. I think her book is one uh one of the best ones.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, so I'll put the title and the author in the show notes for people to access. And I think it's really important too, because I also yeah, have experience working with energy. I'm a Reiki practitioner, and it's something that's always been fundamental to how I see the world. Um, yet I know it's often perceived as being quite woo-woo or not scientific. So I think to bring a scientific component into understanding the energy field is really important and helpful for people to access.

SPEAKER_05 49:52

Very, there's so much science on this out there. So just bear. I mean, it's just a question of knowing where to look.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

Exactly, knowing where to start, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:02

And there's lots of woo-woo stuff, let's say that very clearly. There's also stuff where I would say that's way out.

SPEAKER_03 50:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:10

Oh, that has I I'm not quite sure I understand the basis of it. So again, one needs to differentiate and really, you know, sense into yourself is there truth in here or is that just woo-woo?

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Right, yeah, that discernment. I call it rehashed woo-woo. I love that. It's a new term. Yeah, so using our discernment as HSPs, which I think we have that that skill, that intuition. Exactly. So thank you so much for this incredible conversation. I'm just wondering if there's anything else you wanted to add. Is there anything we haven't spoken about today that you wanted to speak to?

SPEAKER_05 50:55

No, I don't actually don't think so, other than sort of concluding um to be happy about your gifts.

SPEAKER_04 51:05

Use them. Right.

SPEAKER_05 51:06

Um self-love, self-love is so important for everyone, but for especially for people that we're always told that there's something wrong with them to go to self-that's the key for that's the basis for transformation into your power.

SPEAKER_04 51:26

Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 51:30

Whatever you're going to sort of fix needs to land in self-love. That's the key.

SPEAKER_04 51:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

I think that's a brilliant note to conclude on um celebrating our diversity, our differences, and our uniqueness. So thank you again. And where can listeners go to stay connected to you? Um, do you have a website, social media? And I will put the links in the show notes for people.

SPEAKER_05 52:02

Yeah, I have a website and it's bilingual. So it's it's in German and in English. And um it's called um www.integralcoreproject.com. And uh I'm on social media on LinkedIn. Um, you can find me on Instagram at um Anna Yoli Bucellati. So um fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 52:31

I will too, so that's easy for people to access.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

Thanks for joining me today on Highly Sensitive Humans. Make sure to visit my website, highly sensitivehumans.com, where I also offer one-to-one coaching for highly sensitive people and a members area with monthly community meetings. You can also visit the Highly Sensitive Human Academy to find out more about upcoming online trainings, including a three-month professional training on how to coach highly sensitive people, and a three-month professional training on working with highly sensitive children. And if you found value in the show today, I'd really appreciate the rating. And you can also support the show by making a donation. Your donations are what enable the production of the podcast and enable the show to keep running.