{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":2.129,"endTime":6.089,"body":"Welcome to messy but"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":2.129,"endTime":6.089,"body":"essential, I'm Rod Stilwell, and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":6.089,"endTime":8.999,"body":"this is the podcast about the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":6.089,"endTime":8.999,"body":"people side of project"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":8.999,"endTime":13.079,"body":"leadership. It's where we help"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":8.999,"endTime":13.079,"body":"you improve your soft skills to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":13.079,"endTime":17.039,"body":"reduce hard costs. In today's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":13.079,"endTime":17.039,"body":"episode, we're going to be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":17.039,"endTime":20.189,"body":"talking about the importance of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":17.039,"endTime":20.189,"body":"clarity in roles and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":20.189,"endTime":23.429,"body":"responsibilities within"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":20.189,"endTime":23.429,"body":"projects. Joining me in the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":23.429,"endTime":26.249,"body":"studio today is my brother Dale,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":23.429,"endTime":26.249,"body":"who's my business partner, and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":26.249,"endTime":28.769,"body":"comes with extensive project"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":26.249,"endTime":28.769,"body":"experience around the world."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":29.639,"endTime":35.789,"body":"Now, let's jump into this topic"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":29.639,"endTime":35.789,"body":"using as a basis, a relatively"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":35.819,"endTime":39.809,"body":"well used acronym and tool"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":35.819,"endTime":39.809,"body":"within the project world, which"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":39.809,"endTime":45.599,"body":"is the raci chart. The ability"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":39.809,"endTime":45.599,"body":"to map out for all of the key"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":45.599,"endTime":49.019,"body":"tasks, who's actually"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":45.599,"endTime":49.019,"body":"responsible, who's accountable"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":49.349,"endTime":53.249,"body":"with whom we should be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":49.349,"endTime":53.249,"body":"consulting? And who do we have"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":53.249,"endTime":59.579,"body":"to inform once decisions are"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":53.249,"endTime":59.579,"body":"made? So I'm starting this"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":59.729,"endTime":64.079,"body":"podcast primarily because over"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":59.729,"endTime":64.079,"body":"the last couple of weeks, I've"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":64.079,"endTime":66.959,"body":"discovered with a number of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":64.079,"endTime":66.959,"body":"clients that one of the things"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":66.959,"endTime":71.249,"body":"that gets in the way is when"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":66.959,"endTime":71.249,"body":"people aren't clear on who's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":71.279,"endTime":75.779,"body":"supposed to be doing what. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":71.279,"endTime":75.779,"body":"as a result, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":75.779,"endTime":80.639,"body":"creates confusion, frustration,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":75.779,"endTime":80.639,"body":"in some cases, resentment, and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":80.639,"endTime":84.389,"body":"so on. So all these emotions"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":80.639,"endTime":84.389,"body":"come up simply because somebody"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":84.419,"endTime":89.129,"body":"wasn't declarative in who does"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":84.419,"endTime":89.129,"body":"what, and with that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":89.129,"endTime":91.619,"body":"other things that go with it. So"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":89.129,"endTime":91.619,"body":"tell me a little bit or talk to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":91.619,"endTime":95.369,"body":"him maybe a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":91.619,"endTime":95.369,"body":"your experience with respect to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":95.459,"endTime":97.529,"body":"either clarity of roles or lack"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":95.459,"endTime":97.529,"body":"thereof?"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":98.62,"endTime":102.04,"body":"Well, I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":98.62,"endTime":102.04,"body":"one of the the interesting thing"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":102.04,"endTime":104.83,"body":"with the lack of clarity is that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":102.04,"endTime":104.83,"body":"it, it sort of tends to go two"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":104.83,"endTime":111.67,"body":"ways, right? So you either have"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":104.83,"endTime":111.67,"body":"people who, where no one knows"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":111.7,"endTime":114.49,"body":"who's doing what or, or people"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":111.7,"endTime":114.49,"body":"are assuming that a certain"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":114.49,"endTime":117.79,"body":"person has a certain role. And"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":114.49,"endTime":117.79,"body":"so things drop through the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":117.79,"endTime":121.72,"body":"cracks, or you have the opposite"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":117.79,"endTime":121.72,"body":"problem where multiple people"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":121.72,"endTime":124.84,"body":"assume they all have the same"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":121.72,"endTime":124.84,"body":"role. And now everybodys"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":124.84,"endTime":128.17,"body":"stepping on each other's toes."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":124.84,"endTime":128.17,"body":"And so I think either of those"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":128.17,"endTime":133.54,"body":"is problematic and causes its"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":128.17,"endTime":133.54,"body":"own set of issues. But you know,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":133.57,"endTime":138.43,"body":"you either way, you've got gaps,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":133.57,"endTime":138.43,"body":"and you've got issues in your"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":138.43,"endTime":142.93,"body":"project. You know, not having we"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":138.43,"endTime":142.93,"body":"talked last week about things"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":142.93,"endTime":146.89,"body":"like trust and accountability."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":142.93,"endTime":146.89,"body":"And obviously, those are tied to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":146.89,"endTime":151.54,"body":"circumstances to these roles and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":146.89,"endTime":151.54,"body":"responsibilities. You know, we"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":151.57,"endTime":155.14,"body":"we talked about how you, in"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":151.57,"endTime":155.14,"body":"order to trust someone, you need"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":155.14,"endTime":159.34,"body":"to feel confident that they will"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":155.14,"endTime":159.34,"body":"do their job that they will do"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":159.34,"endTime":163.72,"body":"the things that they are"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":159.34,"endTime":163.72,"body":"responsible for. But if it's not"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":163.72,"endTime":167.89,"body":"clear, who's responsible for"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":163.72,"endTime":167.89,"body":"what now, you know, your trust"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":167.89,"endTime":172.84,"body":"can become eroded in someone for"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":167.89,"endTime":172.84,"body":"all the wrong reasons. And if"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":172.84,"endTime":175.72,"body":"you've got multiple people doing"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":172.84,"endTime":175.72,"body":"the same jobs, now you end up"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":175.72,"endTime":179.47,"body":"with this conflict, because, you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":175.72,"endTime":179.47,"body":"know, two people are working on"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":179.47,"endTime":184.42,"body":"the same things. And obviously,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":179.47,"endTime":184.42,"body":"most of us hate wasting our"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":184.42,"endTime":187.03,"body":"time, or the perception that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":184.42,"endTime":187.03,"body":"we're wasting our time. So"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":187.03,"endTime":189.88,"body":"there's nothing worse than going"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":187.03,"endTime":189.88,"body":"off spending a whole bunch of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":189.88,"endTime":192.79,"body":"time working on something to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":189.88,"endTime":192.79,"body":"come back and discover that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":192.79,"endTime":197.26,"body":"someone else has already done"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":192.79,"endTime":197.26,"body":"the same work. You know, and and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":197.26,"endTime":199.18,"body":"a lot of its overlap and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":197.26,"endTime":199.18,"body":"everything else. So I think"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":199.18,"endTime":202.66,"body":"there's there's a lot of issues"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":199.18,"endTime":202.66,"body":"in both of those arenas, when we"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":202.66,"endTime":204.07,"body":"talk about this lack of clarity,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":204.85,"endTime":210.34,"body":"I would concur. I guess two"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":204.85,"endTime":210.34,"body":"things come to mind. So one is"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":210.4,"endTime":216.22,"body":"anecdotal. I remember very early"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":210.4,"endTime":216.22,"body":"on in my career, working for a"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":216.25,"endTime":220.9,"body":"senior vice president, who would"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":216.25,"endTime":220.9,"body":"always have several people"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":220.93,"endTime":223.06,"body":"working on the same thing."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":223.93,"endTime":224.83,"body":"The scattershot approach."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":224.79,"endTime":228.18,"body":"Yeah, well, I remember"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":224.79,"endTime":228.18,"body":"challenging him on it at one"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":228.18,"endTime":231.48,"body":"point in saying, Ken, like, why"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":228.18,"endTime":231.48,"body":"do you have three people working"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":231.48,"endTime":235.74,"body":"on the same thing? And he said,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":231.48,"endTime":235.74,"body":"\"Well, here's the deal. They"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":235.74,"endTime":238.23,"body":"don't seem to talk to each other"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":235.74,"endTime":238.23,"body":"very much. So I've discovered"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":238.23,"endTime":240.51,"body":"that if I get them all working"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":238.23,"endTime":240.51,"body":"on the same thing, but I don't"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":240.51,"endTime":244.56,"body":"tell them and they bump into"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":240.51,"endTime":244.56,"body":"each other doing it, it actually"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":244.56,"endTime":247.44,"body":"creates dialogue, even if the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":244.56,"endTime":247.44,"body":"dialogue is just about their"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":247.44,"endTime":252.99,"body":"frustration with me.\" So well,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":247.44,"endTime":252.99,"body":"it's a strategy, it wouldn't be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":252.99,"endTime":256.32,"body":"my preferred strategy. But I"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":252.99,"endTime":256.32,"body":"think the other side of it is"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":256.32,"endTime":258.99,"body":"that, you know, when we look and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":256.32,"endTime":258.99,"body":"normally we kick off these"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":258.99,"endTime":262.53,"body":"podcasts with safety, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":258.99,"endTime":262.53,"body":"a little bit about our safety"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":262.53,"endTime":265.2,"body":"minute or whatever. And so I you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":262.53,"endTime":265.2,"body":"know, if I even relate back"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":265.2,"endTime":269.25,"body":"those roles and responsibilities"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":265.2,"endTime":269.25,"body":"to safety, how easy it is to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":269.25,"endTime":273.66,"body":"say, \"No, everybody's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":269.25,"endTime":273.66,"body":"responsible for safety.\" Or, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":273.66,"endTime":276.42,"body":"know, if we go back 10 years,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":273.66,"endTime":276.42,"body":"you know, we named a safety"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":276.42,"endTime":279.66,"body":"coordinator, and he or she was"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":276.42,"endTime":279.66,"body":"the person responsible for"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":279.66,"endTime":282.33,"body":"safety. And gradually, we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":279.66,"endTime":282.33,"body":"realized, no, everybody has to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":282.33,"endTime":285.9,"body":"own safety. But that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":282.33,"endTime":285.9,"body":"mean that everybody takes all of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":285.9,"endTime":288.54,"body":"the action they need, there"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":285.9,"endTime":288.54,"body":"still needs to be some level of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":288.72,"endTime":293.25,"body":"clarity on who's responsible for"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":288.72,"endTime":293.25,"body":"what aspects of safety, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":293.25,"endTime":298.62,"body":"know, and who's responsible for"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":293.25,"endTime":298.62,"body":"reporting on or calling, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":298.62,"endTime":302.28,"body":"know, when you come into work,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":298.62,"endTime":302.28,"body":"space and it isn't safe, who'"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":302.28,"endTime":305.58,"body":"responsible for halting the wor"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":302.28,"endTime":305.58,"body":"and saying \"no, we're not movi"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":305.58,"endTime":309.0,"body":"g forward.\" So if we're not clea"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":305.58,"endTime":309.0,"body":"on those roles and resp"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":309.0,"endTime":312.18,"body":"nsibilities, even within that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":309.0,"endTime":312.18,"body":"safety world, which we all kind"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":312.18,"endTime":315.42,"body":"of take for granted now, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":312.18,"endTime":315.42,"body":"now, we can run into some chal"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":315.42,"endTime":316.14,"body":"enges."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":317.05,"endTime":320.32,"body":"Yeah. So that brings up an"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":317.05,"endTime":320.32,"body":"interesting thing, you know, on"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":320.32,"endTime":324.58,"body":"a well functioning project team,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":320.32,"endTime":324.58,"body":"you hope that everybody on the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":324.58,"endTime":327.73,"body":"project feels responsible for"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":324.58,"endTime":327.73,"body":"the success of the project."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":328.42,"endTime":331.06,"body":"Right. So there's this shared"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":328.42,"endTime":331.06,"body":"team responsibility for that."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":331.39,"endTime":337.18,"body":"But clearly, the project manager"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":331.39,"endTime":337.18,"body":"needs to have this overall"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":337.18,"endTime":340.51,"body":"responsibility for the success"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":337.18,"endTime":340.51,"body":"of the project, it's their job"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":340.54,"endTime":346.99,"body":"to manage getting to the end"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":340.54,"endTime":346.99,"body":"result. So you know, that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":346.99,"endTime":349.78,"body":"doesn't take away from the other"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":346.99,"endTime":349.78,"body":"people on the project, feeling a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":349.78,"endTime":355.78,"body":"sense of responsibility. But you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":349.78,"endTime":355.78,"body":"do need to have someone who is"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":355.78,"endTime":358.96,"body":"the named person responsible for"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":355.78,"endTime":358.96,"body":"that?"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":359.5,"endTime":362.83,"body":"Absolutely. You know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":359.5,"endTime":362.83,"body":"there's lots of expressions come"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":362.83,"endTime":365.41,"body":"to mind, you know, good fences"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":362.83,"endTime":365.41,"body":"make good neighbors, which, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":365.41,"endTime":369.01,"body":"know, basically is about having"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":365.41,"endTime":369.01,"body":"defined boundaries. And the same"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":369.01,"endTime":371.56,"body":"goes obviously, in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":369.01,"endTime":371.56,"body":"relationships, even when it"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":371.56,"endTime":376.3,"body":"comes down to what could be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":371.56,"endTime":376.3,"body":"conceived as silly things or"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":376.3,"endTime":379.6,"body":"perceived as silly things. But,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":376.3,"endTime":379.6,"body":"you know, just understanding"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":379.63,"endTime":384.22,"body":"who's responsible for submitting"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":379.63,"endTime":384.22,"body":"x report, who's responsible for"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":384.22,"endTime":387.07,"body":"contributing to that report. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":384.22,"endTime":387.07,"body":"one of the reasons, you know"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":387.07,"endTime":390.61,"body":"years ago I kind of fell in love"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":387.07,"endTime":390.61,"body":"with the RACI acronym. And what"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":390.61,"endTime":395.77,"body":"it stood for was that not so"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":390.61,"endTime":395.77,"body":"much in the responsibility and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":395.77,"endTime":398.35,"body":"accountability, because people"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":395.77,"endTime":398.35,"body":"kind of mix those up and stuff."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":398.35,"endTime":402.01,"body":"And we'll talk about those in a"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":398.35,"endTime":402.01,"body":"moment. But in, especially in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":402.16,"endTime":407.29,"body":"who do we need to consult, whose"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":402.16,"endTime":407.29,"body":"nose might get out a joint"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":407.29,"endTime":411.1,"body":"because or feathers ruffled"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":407.29,"endTime":411.1,"body":"because they weren't consulted,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":411.55,"endTime":416.35,"body":"which just adds friction to the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":411.55,"endTime":416.35,"body":"relationships, because it wasn't"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":416.35,"endTime":420.85,"body":"clear who else needs to be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":416.35,"endTime":420.85,"body":"involved. And, you know, often"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":420.85,"endTime":423.49,"body":"when we start projects, where"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":420.85,"endTime":423.49,"body":"there's that kind of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":423.49,"endTime":426.64,"body":"feasibility, pre feasibility,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":423.49,"endTime":426.64,"body":"dialogue, and so on, we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":426.64,"endTime":431.95,"body":"establish almost unspoken"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":426.64,"endTime":431.95,"body":"communication patterns, if you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":431.95,"endTime":434.89,"body":"wish, that as the project grows,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":431.95,"endTime":434.89,"body":"and we do more things, and we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":434.89,"endTime":437.86,"body":"get into executing and we get"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":434.89,"endTime":437.86,"body":"into, whether it's building,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":437.89,"endTime":442.18,"body":"applying, installing whatever it"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":437.89,"endTime":442.18,"body":"might end up being, some of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":442.18,"endTime":447.58,"body":"those early communication"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":442.18,"endTime":447.58,"body":"patterns, stay with us. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":447.58,"endTime":450.4,"body":"that's why I come back to that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":447.58,"endTime":450.4,"body":"the whole issue of who needs to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":450.4,"endTime":453.79,"body":"be consulted, and ultimately,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":450.4,"endTime":453.79,"body":"who needs to be informed. So"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":453.79,"endTime":458.8,"body":"I've always loved that part of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":453.79,"endTime":458.8,"body":"the raci model. But what I've"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":458.8,"endTime":462.76,"body":"also discovered is that very few"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":458.8,"endTime":462.76,"body":"people have the rigor to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":462.76,"endTime":465.73,"body":"identify those, but they're"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":462.76,"endTime":465.73,"body":"pretty quick to have to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":465.73,"endTime":469.39,"body":"backpedal when they discover,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":465.73,"endTime":469.39,"body":"you know, partway through or"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":469.39,"endTime":471.94,"body":"later on a decision has been"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":469.39,"endTime":471.94,"body":"made, that they didn't talk to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":471.94,"endTime":475.09,"body":"the right people. And I think we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":471.94,"endTime":475.09,"body":"certainly both have examples in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":475.09,"endTime":478.81,"body":"our history where, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":475.09,"endTime":478.81,"body":"right people weren't at the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":478.81,"endTime":481.27,"body":"right meeting. And in fact, the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":478.81,"endTime":481.27,"body":"decisions we made weren't the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":481.27,"endTime":481.63,"body":"best decisions."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":483.15,"endTime":483.72,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":485.16,"endTime":488.13,"body":"So it brings me to, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":485.16,"endTime":488.13,"body":"know, let's step back in that in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":488.13,"endTime":492.15,"body":"the raci model. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":488.13,"endTime":492.15,"body":"first of all, identifying just"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":492.15,"endTime":496.02,"body":"the difference between"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":492.15,"endTime":496.02,"body":"responsible and accountable. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":496.05,"endTime":500.49,"body":"they're words that we play with,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":496.05,"endTime":500.49,"body":"often interchangeably, but they"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":500.49,"endTime":504.42,"body":"mean two very different things."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":500.49,"endTime":504.42,"body":"So take us through a little bit,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":504.42,"endTime":506.22,"body":"if you will, the differences"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":504.42,"endTime":506.22,"body":"between the two, Dale."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":507.09,"endTime":509.64,"body":"So you know, we"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":507.09,"endTime":509.64,"body":"traditionally someone who is"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":509.64,"endTime":513.57,"body":"responsible is the person who's"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":509.64,"endTime":513.57,"body":"actually doing the work. So you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":513.57,"endTime":520.08,"body":"know, they are the person who"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":513.57,"endTime":520.08,"body":"gets the result that is required"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":520.08,"endTime":523.41,"body":"for the given action. So if it's"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":520.08,"endTime":523.41,"body":"if it's sending out a status"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":523.41,"endTime":526.29,"body":"report, they're the person who"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":523.41,"endTime":526.29,"body":"actually sends out the status"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":526.29,"endTime":530.37,"body":"report. The person who's"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":526.29,"endTime":530.37,"body":"accountable is the person who"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":530.4,"endTime":537.21,"body":"ultimately will be judged on"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":530.4,"endTime":537.21,"body":"whether or not it happens. And"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":537.21,"endTime":543.24,"body":"so oftentimes, that has some"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":537.21,"endTime":543.24,"body":"form of a hierarchy to it. So"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":543.27,"endTime":548.04,"body":"you know, you may have someone"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":543.27,"endTime":548.04,"body":"on a project, who is in charge"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":548.04,"endTime":551.04,"body":"of communications, their"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":548.04,"endTime":551.04,"body":"communication specialist, it's"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":551.04,"endTime":555.96,"body":"the type of project that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":551.04,"endTime":555.96,"body":"requires some very precise"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":555.96,"endTime":559.38,"body":"language and some very specific"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":555.96,"endTime":559.38,"body":"things around how we communicate"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":559.41,"endTime":562.95,"body":"aspects of the project."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":559.41,"endTime":562.95,"body":"Something like you know,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":562.95,"endTime":566.28,"body":"something that's affecting"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":562.95,"endTime":566.28,"body":"people's livelihoods or has a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":566.28,"endTime":569.37,"body":"lot of HR impacts. Those types"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":566.28,"endTime":569.37,"body":"of things often require some"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":569.37,"endTime":573.09,"body":"very formal communications and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":569.37,"endTime":573.09,"body":"very specific communications. So"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":573.09,"endTime":575.61,"body":"you may have a communications"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":573.09,"endTime":575.61,"body":"person who's who's on the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":575.61,"endTime":578.61,"body":"project, and they're responsible"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":575.61,"endTime":578.61,"body":"for getting the communication"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":578.61,"endTime":581.19,"body":"out there for ensuring that it's"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":578.61,"endTime":581.19,"body":"accurate for ensuring it follows"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":581.19,"endTime":583.77,"body":"all the standards we're doing"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":581.19,"endTime":583.77,"body":"all of us do that. But the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":583.77,"endTime":589.68,"body":"project manager is accountable"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":583.77,"endTime":589.68,"body":"to the stakeholders to all the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":589.68,"endTime":594.6,"body":"rest of that for ensuring that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":589.68,"endTime":594.6,"body":"the communication happens."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":596.91,"endTime":600.03,"body":"Yeah, that's a good I like"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":596.91,"endTime":600.03,"body":"those two distinctions."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":600.18,"endTime":604.41,"body":"Ultimately, I think, because"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":600.18,"endTime":604.41,"body":"they do often get mixed up. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":604.41,"endTime":607.08,"body":"I've certainly been in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":604.41,"endTime":607.08,"body":"situations where, you know, all"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":607.08,"endTime":610.59,"body":"of a sudden, the project leaders"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":607.08,"endTime":610.59,"body":"name appears in every single"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":610.59,"endTime":616.26,"body":"line for accountability, which"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":610.59,"endTime":616.26,"body":"is, is untenable as well. So the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":616.26,"endTime":620.76,"body":"other side is driving those"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":616.26,"endTime":620.76,"body":"responsibilities and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":620.76,"endTime":624.75,"body":"accountabilities down to the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":620.76,"endTime":624.75,"body":"lowest level we possibly can, in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":624.75,"endTime":627.63,"body":"order to make sure that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":624.75,"endTime":627.63,"body":"ultimately we are able to hold,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":627.9,"endTime":630.3,"body":"you know, individuals"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":627.9,"endTime":630.3,"body":"accountable for the things over"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":630.3,"endTime":634.38,"body":"which they have authority, and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":630.3,"endTime":634.38,"body":"so on. So it may not always be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":634.38,"endTime":636.57,"body":"hierarchical. And in fact, in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":634.38,"endTime":636.57,"body":"many cases, it isn't"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":636.57,"endTime":640.32,"body":"hierarchical, especially as you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":636.57,"endTime":640.32,"body":"as you deal with, let's say, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":640.32,"endTime":644.85,"body":"know, cross functional teams. In"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":640.32,"endTime":644.85,"body":"some cases, in order to execute"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":644.85,"endTime":650.25,"body":"a project, somebody may actually"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":644.85,"endTime":650.25,"body":"now be overseeing or accountable"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":650.25,"endTime":653.76,"body":"for something and their"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":650.25,"endTime":653.76,"body":"hierarchical boss is actually"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":653.76,"endTime":659.13,"body":"now a doer. You know, so there"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":653.76,"endTime":659.13,"body":"are definitely, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":659.13,"endTime":664.5,"body":"opportunities to to say, bypass,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":659.13,"endTime":664.5,"body":"but certainly not get stuck in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":664.62,"endTime":667.56,"body":"hierarchically, just because"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":664.62,"endTime":667.56,"body":"you're hierarchically superior,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":667.68,"endTime":671.01,"body":"that automatically automatically"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":667.68,"endTime":671.01,"body":"makes you the accountable"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":671.01,"endTime":674.28,"body":"person, I think it's important"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":671.01,"endTime":674.28,"body":"to look at each task and really"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":674.28,"endTime":679.35,"body":"ask ourselves, how can we drive"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":674.28,"endTime":679.35,"body":"this down to the right level, in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":679.35,"endTime":683.61,"body":"order to then be able to get the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":679.35,"endTime":683.61,"body":"results? The other? So go ahead."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":683.67,"endTime":685.98,"body":"Yeah, to pick up on that."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":683.67,"endTime":685.98,"body":"I would say, you know, when"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":685.98,"endTime":689.28,"body":"you're looking at at who's"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":685.98,"endTime":689.28,"body":"responsible for a task, some of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":689.28,"endTime":692.46,"body":"the types of questions you need"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":689.28,"endTime":692.46,"body":"to ask yourself are, is this the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":692.46,"endTime":696.39,"body":"person that has the skills"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":692.46,"endTime":696.39,"body":"necessary to do the work? Is"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":696.39,"endTime":700.32,"body":"this the person that has that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":696.39,"endTime":700.32,"body":"has been allocated, the time to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":700.32,"endTime":704.52,"body":"do the work? versus someone"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":700.32,"endTime":704.52,"body":"who's accountable? The questions"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":704.52,"endTime":709.32,"body":"are more things like is this the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":704.52,"endTime":709.32,"body":"person who has the ability to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":709.32,"endTime":713.58,"body":"move the Road block? Is this the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":709.32,"endTime":713.58,"body":"person who has the approval, the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":713.58,"endTime":717.72,"body":"ability to approve certain"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":713.58,"endTime":717.72,"body":"things that needs to happen?"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":718.26,"endTime":722.76,"body":"Right, can sign off on this has"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":718.26,"endTime":722.76,"body":"the budget has, you know, those"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":722.76,"endTime":726.33,"body":"types of things, so you can't"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":722.76,"endTime":726.33,"body":"make someone accountable for"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":726.33,"endTime":730.29,"body":"something over which they have"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":726.33,"endTime":730.29,"body":"no control, you can put their"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":730.29,"endTime":733.23,"body":"name down, but there's no way"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":730.29,"endTime":733.23,"body":"you're ever going to be able to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":733.23,"endTime":736.86,"body":"hold them accountable for that."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":733.23,"endTime":736.86,"body":"And you can't make someone"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":736.86,"endTime":740.01,"body":"responsible for work that they"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":736.86,"endTime":740.01,"body":"can't actually accomplish."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":740.28,"endTime":741.99,"body":"Because they either don't have"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":740.28,"endTime":741.99,"body":"the time or they don't have the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":741.99,"endTime":742.53,"body":"skills."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":743.65,"endTime":747.25,"body":"Yeah, and in fact, I would"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":743.65,"endTime":747.25,"body":"even add a third element to that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":747.25,"endTime":752.71,"body":"the time the skills and the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":747.25,"endTime":752.71,"body":"motivation. Because I think"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":752.71,"endTime":754.93,"body":"that's the that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":752.71,"endTime":754.93,"body":"that's an area that we don't"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":754.93,"endTime":758.17,"body":"look at very often when we talk"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":754.93,"endTime":758.17,"body":"about clarity of roles and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":758.17,"endTime":761.83,"body":"responsibilities. Does the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":758.17,"endTime":761.83,"body":"person to whom you're assigning"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":761.83,"endTime":766.6,"body":"this responsibility really even"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":761.83,"endTime":766.6,"body":"want that? Or? Or is it a"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":766.6,"endTime":770.44,"body":"component that everybody, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":766.6,"endTime":770.44,"body":"know, somebody drew the short"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":770.44,"endTime":775.72,"body":"straw, and they're the ones who"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":770.44,"endTime":775.72,"body":"now have to do it? So how do we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":775.72,"endTime":779.14,"body":"get them engaged, excited,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":775.72,"endTime":779.14,"body":"passionate, etc, etc. So what"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":779.17,"endTime":783.88,"body":"what's the motivator behind"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":779.17,"endTime":783.88,"body":"that? If If I, if we're looking"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":783.88,"endTime":788.05,"body":"at, you know, kind of where all"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":783.88,"endTime":788.05,"body":"of this needs to go in terms of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":788.11,"endTime":793.72,"body":"understanding the importance of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":788.11,"endTime":793.72,"body":"applying some kind of a raci"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":793.72,"endTime":796.09,"body":"chart, whether you actually use"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":793.72,"endTime":796.09,"body":"the raci chart or whatnot, but"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":796.09,"endTime":798.67,"body":"that's, you know, somewhat"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":796.09,"endTime":798.67,"body":"academic, but, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":798.67,"endTime":805.81,"body":"understanding that clarity of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":798.67,"endTime":805.81,"body":"who's doing what, who's making"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":805.84,"endTime":808.6,"body":"room for you to do it. So you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":805.84,"endTime":808.6,"body":"talk about that accountability"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":808.6,"endTime":812.65,"body":"partner, as being kind of the de"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":808.6,"endTime":812.65,"body":"blocker, the one who gets stuff"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":812.68,"endTime":816.34,"body":"out of the way. So the person"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":812.68,"endTime":816.34,"body":"responsible can actually make it"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":816.34,"endTime":818.89,"body":"happen. You know, I remember a"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":816.34,"endTime":818.89,"body":"quote, and I'm gonna probably"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":818.89,"endTime":822.22,"body":"mess it up a little bit, but"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":818.89,"endTime":822.22,"body":"from Prime Minister Margaret"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":822.22,"endTime":828.13,"body":"Thatcher, when she was Prime"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":822.22,"endTime":828.13,"body":"Minister of, of England, she one"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":828.13,"endTime":832.45,"body":"of her many comments was, when"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":828.13,"endTime":832.45,"body":"challenged about leadership and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":832.45,"endTime":837.61,"body":"what she was responsible for."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":832.45,"endTime":837.61,"body":"She said, My responsibility is"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":837.61,"endTime":843.13,"body":"to create the vision. I can't be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":837.61,"endTime":843.13,"body":"responsible for the past, can't"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":843.13,"endTime":848.17,"body":"change it. I can't be really"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":843.13,"endTime":848.17,"body":"responsible for everything that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":848.17,"endTime":853.03,"body":"happens in the present, because"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":848.17,"endTime":853.03,"body":"I don't do it all. But I can be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":853.03,"endTime":856.84,"body":"responsible for creating a"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":853.03,"endTime":856.84,"body":"vision of the future, and then"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":856.93,"endTime":861.28,"body":"moving things out of the way so"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":856.93,"endTime":861.28,"body":"that people can achieve that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":861.31,"endTime":865.51,"body":"vision. And I liked that because"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":861.31,"endTime":865.51,"body":"one of the things that spoke to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":865.51,"endTime":870.07,"body":"was the fact that clearly just"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":865.51,"endTime":870.07,"body":"putting a name in a box, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":870.07,"endTime":873.34,"body":"mean it gets done and doesn't"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":870.07,"endTime":873.34,"body":"mean that people own it. So when"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":873.34,"endTime":876.16,"body":"we drive it down to the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":873.34,"endTime":876.16,"body":"responsible is the person who's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":876.16,"endTime":880.51,"body":"truly doing the work. Are they"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":876.16,"endTime":880.51,"body":"equipped to do the work? Do they"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":880.51,"endTime":883.21,"body":"have the competency? Do they"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":880.51,"endTime":883.21,"body":"have the motivation? Have they"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":883.21,"endTime":888.67,"body":"had the path cleared so that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":883.21,"endTime":888.67,"body":"they can do that work? Now, I'm"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":888.67,"endTime":891.67,"body":"I'm kind of reminded of, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":888.67,"endTime":891.67,"body":"know, living in Canada,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":891.82,"endTime":895.21,"body":"icebreakers that break the way"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":891.82,"endTime":895.21,"body":"for ships to get across, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":895.21,"endTime":900.04,"body":"know, the Great Lakes etc, etc."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":895.21,"endTime":900.04,"body":"You know, ultimately, there's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":900.31,"endTime":904.78,"body":"Their job is to simply clear the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":900.31,"endTime":904.78,"body":"path. So that accountability"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":904.78,"endTime":908.32,"body":"function as well as clearing the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":904.78,"endTime":908.32,"body":"path, so that the responsible"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":908.32,"endTime":911.59,"body":"individual can get the job done."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":908.32,"endTime":911.59,"body":"I think that's a pretty powerful"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":911.83,"endTime":916.42,"body":"concept to work with. In"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":911.83,"endTime":916.42,"body":"addition to that, let's Let's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":916.42,"endTime":919.54,"body":"now move from that we've talked"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":916.42,"endTime":919.54,"body":"about responsibility and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":919.54,"endTime":922.69,"body":"accountability. In that sense,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":919.54,"endTime":922.69,"body":"holding people accountable is"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":922.69,"endTime":926.77,"body":"always a bit of a challenge. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":922.69,"endTime":926.77,"body":"so if it's not clear, it's easy"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":926.77,"endTime":932.02,"body":"for nobody to own the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":926.77,"endTime":932.02,"body":"accountability. And I spent a"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":932.02,"endTime":935.83,"body":"number of years working in a"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":932.02,"endTime":935.83,"body":"banking world, where, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":935.83,"endTime":940.36,"body":"in one analysis, we discovered"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":935.83,"endTime":940.36,"body":"we had nine people who looked at"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":940.36,"endTime":943.81,"body":"a loan before it was approved."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":940.36,"endTime":943.81,"body":"Well, that made it you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":943.81,"endTime":946.84,"body":"when we decided to start doing"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":943.81,"endTime":946.84,"body":"some metrics to determine, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":946.84,"endTime":950.86,"body":"know, how could we improve a,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":946.84,"endTime":950.86,"body":"reduce the amount of time it"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":950.86,"endTime":953.71,"body":"takes to approve a loan, and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":950.86,"endTime":953.71,"body":"then be, you know, make sure"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":953.71,"endTime":956.23,"body":"that the loans were being"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":953.71,"endTime":956.23,"body":"approved by people who had the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":956.23,"endTime":959.8,"body":"competency to judge, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":956.23,"endTime":959.8,"body":"not just read balance sheets,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":959.8,"endTime":963.13,"body":"but also to judge whether this"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":959.8,"endTime":963.13,"body":"was a good fit, and so on. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":963.13,"endTime":966.4,"body":"we wanted to reduce that from"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":963.13,"endTime":966.4,"body":"nine people to two people, what"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":966.4,"endTime":968.62,"body":"we discovered was, when you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":966.4,"endTime":968.62,"body":"reduce it to two people, it's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":968.62,"endTime":973.72,"body":"very clear who's messing up. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":968.62,"endTime":973.72,"body":"that sends shockwaves through an"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":973.72,"endTime":977.8,"body":"organization, when to a certain"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":973.72,"endTime":977.8,"body":"extent, they can't hide behind"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":977.8,"endTime":980.29,"body":"the fact that, you know, must"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":977.8,"endTime":980.29,"body":"have been somebody else I, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":980.29,"endTime":983.32,"body":"know, I thought Bob was going to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":980.29,"endTime":983.32,"body":"be looking at that, I guess, Bob"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":983.32,"endTime":985.93,"body":"didn't, and that's why you know,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":983.32,"endTime":985.93,"body":"this failed or whatever. So"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":985.93,"endTime":989.23,"body":"again, it comes down to when we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":985.93,"endTime":989.23,"body":"talk about accountability, the,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":989.29,"endTime":993.58,"body":"you know, the clarity allows us"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":989.29,"endTime":993.58,"body":"to focus not in pointing"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":993.58,"endTime":998.2,"body":"fingers, but rather developing"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":993.58,"endTime":998.2,"body":"and growing people, in order for"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":998.2,"endTime":1001.5,"body":"them to be able to do the job"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":998.2,"endTime":1001.5,"body":"we're expecting them to do. If"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1001.5,"endTime":1004.32,"body":"too many people are involved in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1001.5,"endTime":1004.32,"body":"it's unclear. We don't even know"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1004.32,"endTime":1006.51,"body":"where to invest those resources."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1004.32,"endTime":1006.51,"body":"We don't know who needs to get"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1006.51,"endTime":1011.28,"body":"better at what. Now, let's move"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1006.51,"endTime":1011.28,"body":"to the consultant side, because"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1011.28,"endTime":1015.45,"body":"I, I think this is the part"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1011.28,"endTime":1015.45,"body":"where we we often just gloss"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1015.45,"endTime":1019.38,"body":"over it. We don't pay a lot of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1015.45,"endTime":1019.38,"body":"attention to who do we need to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1019.47,"endTime":1024.03,"body":"bring on board, get their"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1019.47,"endTime":1024.03,"body":"insights, make sure that we've"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1024.03,"endTime":1027.42,"body":"consulted them before we make a"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1024.03,"endTime":1027.42,"body":"decision. So what's your"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1027.42,"endTime":1030.18,"body":"experience been is this a one,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1027.42,"endTime":1030.18,"body":"something that is often"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1030.36,"endTime":1032.88,"body":"overlooked within project,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1030.36,"endTime":1032.88,"body":"certainly I can say in some of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1032.88,"endTime":1035.64,"body":"the projects I've been on, it is"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1032.88,"endTime":1035.64,"body":"often overlooked until, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1035.64,"endTime":1038.04,"body":"know, kicking and screaming, we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1035.64,"endTime":1038.04,"body":"drag them there. But what's your"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1038.07,"endTime":1038.64,"body":"experience been?"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1040.43,"endTime":1044.18,"body":"yeah, so I think what"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1040.43,"endTime":1044.18,"body":"often happens, or what does tend"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1044.18,"endTime":1049.4,"body":"to happen in technical projects,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1044.18,"endTime":1049.4,"body":"is that you get a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1050.21,"endTime":1054.56,"body":"on the project who assume that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1050.21,"endTime":1054.56,"body":"they have all the knowledge"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1054.56,"endTime":1058.4,"body":"necessary to complete the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1054.56,"endTime":1058.4,"body":"project or complete the area."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1058.4,"endTime":1063.89,"body":"And so sometimes there is a lack"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1058.4,"endTime":1063.89,"body":"of a desire to consult, because"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1063.89,"endTime":1067.58,"body":"it's easier to just assume you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1063.89,"endTime":1067.58,"body":"know, and so I you know, if"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1067.58,"endTime":1069.83,"body":"we're going to draw the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1067.58,"endTime":1069.83,"body":"distinction between consulting"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1069.83,"endTime":1073.07,"body":"and informing right, that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1069.83,"endTime":1073.07,"body":"consulting is this person has"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1073.07,"endTime":1078.14,"body":"valuable data, valuable input,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1073.07,"endTime":1078.14,"body":"valuable information, valuable"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1078.17,"endTime":1083.75,"body":"insights, that if you're really"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1078.17,"endTime":1083.75,"body":"going to be successful at doing"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1083.75,"endTime":1089.51,"body":"this task, at accomplishing"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1083.75,"endTime":1089.51,"body":"whatever this is, it's in your"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1089.51,"endTime":1094.19,"body":"best interests to get that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1089.51,"endTime":1094.19,"body":"insight data information from"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1094.19,"endTime":1098.78,"body":"that person. Versus inform,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1094.19,"endTime":1098.78,"body":"that's, that's a community"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1098.78,"endTime":1100.64,"body":"that's more of an outward"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1098.78,"endTime":1100.64,"body":"communication, that's really"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1100.64,"endTime":1103.7,"body":"more of a checkpoint keeping,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1100.64,"endTime":1103.7,"body":"you know, ensuring that that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1103.7,"endTime":1107.12,"body":"person has the right information"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1103.7,"endTime":1107.12,"body":"for whatever they're doing. But"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1107.12,"endTime":1112.28,"body":"you're not looking for something"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1107.12,"endTime":1112.28,"body":"back from them. And, and so, you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1112.28,"endTime":1115.49,"body":"know, part of that that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1112.28,"endTime":1115.49,"body":"consulting concept is, is being"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1115.58,"endTime":1118.79,"body":"open enough to look at it and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1115.58,"endTime":1118.79,"body":"say, okay, where are ours, their"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1118.79,"endTime":1123.41,"body":"expertise, that would be"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1118.79,"endTime":1123.41,"body":"valuable to this project, but"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1123.41,"endTime":1129.44,"body":"that can't be assigned to this"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1123.41,"endTime":1129.44,"body":"project. And I think there's a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1129.44,"endTime":1133.49,"body":"lot of power in that. But it, it"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1129.44,"endTime":1133.49,"body":"often my experiences, especially"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1133.49,"endTime":1138.95,"body":"on technical projects, that, you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1133.49,"endTime":1138.95,"body":"know, there's there's often"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1138.95,"endTime":1140.87,"body":"assumptions that we don't need"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1138.95,"endTime":1140.87,"body":"those people."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1142.25,"endTime":1144.23,"body":"I think that's really"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1142.25,"endTime":1144.23,"body":"valid. I'd like what you said"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1144.23,"endTime":1149.12,"body":"around the belief that we can do"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1144.23,"endTime":1149.12,"body":"it ourselves. And in course,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1149.12,"endTime":1155.66,"body":"let's be fair, sometimes it's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1149.12,"endTime":1155.66,"body":"just more expedient to not"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1155.66,"endTime":1159.47,"body":"involve a bunch of other people."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1155.66,"endTime":1159.47,"body":"But I've discovered that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1159.5,"endTime":1164.36,"body":"ultimately, you pay for that in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1159.5,"endTime":1164.36,"body":"the end, better decisions, you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1164.36,"endTime":1167.72,"body":"know, involving the right number"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1164.36,"endTime":1167.72,"body":"of people and so on. I think the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1167.72,"endTime":1172.79,"body":"other challenge that I see with"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1167.72,"endTime":1172.79,"body":"that consulting side is, you may"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1172.79,"endTime":1177.62,"body":"find that you're inviting people"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1172.79,"endTime":1177.62,"body":"to disagree with you. And most"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1177.62,"endTime":1181.94,"body":"of us have this ego that says, I"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1177.62,"endTime":1181.94,"body":"want to be right, I don't want"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1181.94,"endTime":1185.0,"body":"to surround myself with people"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1181.94,"endTime":1185.0,"body":"who are going to disagree with"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1185.0,"endTime":1189.95,"body":"me. So that ability to kind of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1185.0,"endTime":1189.95,"body":"bite down and say, Okay, I'm"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1189.95,"endTime":1193.37,"body":"inviting people to consult on"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1189.95,"endTime":1193.37,"body":"this. They may have very"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1193.37,"endTime":1197.57,"body":"different opinions than me."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1193.37,"endTime":1197.57,"body":"Ultimately, what we're looking"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1197.57,"endTime":1202.28,"body":"at is how do we get the best"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1197.57,"endTime":1202.28,"body":"outcome For the project, not for"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1202.28,"endTime":1206.57,"body":"me, now my ego kicks in and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1202.28,"endTime":1206.57,"body":"wants it to be for me. But when"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1206.57,"endTime":1210.35,"body":"we're really talking about"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1206.57,"endTime":1210.35,"body":"stellar project leadership, it's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1210.35,"endTime":1214.52,"body":"about delivering the project is"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1210.35,"endTime":1214.52,"body":"not about my ego, your ego, I"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1214.52,"endTime":1218.33,"body":"get credit, you get credit, it's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1214.52,"endTime":1218.33,"body":"really about how are we making"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1218.33,"endTime":1222.32,"body":"the best decisions for this"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1218.33,"endTime":1222.32,"body":"project. So the consulted part"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1222.32,"endTime":1227.45,"body":"of that acronym, if you wish to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1222.32,"endTime":1227.45,"body":"see in it is really about making"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1227.45,"endTime":1233.69,"body":"sure that we're we're also"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1227.45,"endTime":1233.69,"body":"incorporating the feedback of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1233.69,"endTime":1237.08,"body":"people who may disagree with us,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1233.69,"endTime":1237.08,"body":"or people who may not share the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1237.08,"endTime":1240.11,"body":"same opinion are the same. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1237.08,"endTime":1240.11,"body":"we got to get there. And there's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1240.11,"endTime":1244.55,"body":"other podcasts that will we have"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1240.11,"endTime":1244.55,"body":"or will be available when we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1244.55,"endTime":1247.07,"body":"talk about those tough"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1244.55,"endTime":1247.07,"body":"conversations? 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But But I think that ties"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1271.28,"endTime":1274.82,"body":"in very well to, to the concepts"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1274.82,"endTime":1278.21,"body":"of diversity as well, in that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1274.82,"endTime":1278.21,"body":"you want that diversity of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1278.21,"endTime":1280.82,"body":"viewpoint, that diversity of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1278.21,"endTime":1280.82,"body":"background, that diversity of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1280.82,"endTime":1284.99,"body":"opinion, and the more you you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1280.82,"endTime":1284.99,"body":"get that consulting, the more"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1284.99,"endTime":1289.1,"body":"you find out that information,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1284.99,"endTime":1289.1,"body":"the better chance you have of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1289.1,"endTime":1291.26,"body":"not running into some of these"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1289.1,"endTime":1291.26,"body":"major problems. I mean, we've"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1291.26,"endTime":1296.15,"body":"all seen the ad campaigns that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1291.26,"endTime":1296.15,"body":"launch and then get totally"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1296.15,"endTime":1300.41,"body":"panned and end up being pulled."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1296.15,"endTime":1300.41,"body":"And you're left thinking, did"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1300.41,"endTime":1306.32,"body":"you have no one from x group on"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1300.41,"endTime":1306.32,"body":"your approval process? Because"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1306.32,"endTime":1309.05,"body":"this was pretty obvious to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1306.32,"endTime":1309.05,"body":"anybody who had any kind of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1309.05,"endTime":1311.9,"body":"that, you know, background that"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1309.05,"endTime":1311.9,"body":"experience that understanding?"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1312.74,"endTime":1317.27,"body":"And so, you know, part of it is,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1312.74,"endTime":1317.27,"body":"is that getting the looking for"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1317.27,"endTime":1319.82,"body":"the right types of feedback, and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1317.27,"endTime":1319.82,"body":"that's often going to be the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1319.82,"endTime":1325.97,"body":"feedback of people that you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1319.82,"endTime":1325.97,"body":"think, might disagree. 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So if"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1336.14,"endTime":1339.89,"body":"someone has a level of expertise"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1336.14,"endTime":1339.89,"body":"that's required to actually"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1339.89,"endTime":1345.05,"body":"accomplish the job, and, or"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1339.89,"endTime":1345.05,"body":"should be the one held"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1345.11,"endTime":1347.78,"body":"accountable for this, then they"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1345.11,"endTime":1347.78,"body":"shouldn't be consulted, they"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1347.78,"endTime":1351.83,"body":"should be on the project. But"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1347.78,"endTime":1351.83,"body":"you know, so you have to be"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1351.83,"endTime":1354.92,"body":"clear that we're drawing the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1351.83,"endTime":1354.92,"body":"right lines. But you know,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1354.92,"endTime":1356.81,"body":"there's going to be subject"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1354.92,"endTime":1356.81,"body":"matter experts, there's going to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1356.81,"endTime":1361.49,"body":"be people out there who need to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1356.81,"endTime":1361.49,"body":"go to an approach and ask the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1361.49,"endTime":1364.97,"body":"questions, I mean, get the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1361.49,"endTime":1364.97,"body":"information from. And as you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1364.97,"endTime":1367.76,"body":"said, oftentimes it's it's the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1364.97,"endTime":1367.76,"body":"people that you expect are going"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1367.76,"endTime":1369.89,"body":"to challenge you that are the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1367.76,"endTime":1369.89,"body":"best sources."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1372.48,"endTime":1375.99,"body":"So moving from that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1372.48,"endTime":1375.99,"body":"consultant to the last letter in"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1375.99,"endTime":1380.85,"body":"the acronym, the raci acronym"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1375.99,"endTime":1380.85,"body":"that informed one of the things"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1380.85,"endTime":1387.03,"body":"that I found is that because"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1380.85,"endTime":1387.03,"body":"when we are intentional about"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1387.03,"endTime":1391.47,"body":"thinking about who needs to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1387.03,"endTime":1391.47,"body":"know, the outcome of this, we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1391.47,"endTime":1398.4,"body":"avoid a lot of application or"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1391.47,"endTime":1398.4,"body":"integration problems. People"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1398.4,"endTime":1402.09,"body":"love to know what's going on. We"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1398.4,"endTime":1402.09,"body":"I think one of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1402.09,"endTime":1404.94,"body":"challenges we all have is"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1402.09,"endTime":1404.94,"body":"communications. I don't know"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1404.94,"endTime":1407.94,"body":"about you, but I can certainly"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1404.94,"endTime":1407.94,"body":"reflect on the many times where"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1407.94,"endTime":1411.78,"body":"my wife has said, Why didn't you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1407.94,"endTime":1411.78,"body":"tell me about that? 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We know who we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1431.1,"endTime":1434.49,"body":"need to be consulting to make"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1434.49,"endTime":1439.14,"body":"sure that we have looked at all"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1434.49,"endTime":1439.14,"body":"sides of the argument. Now who"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1439.14,"endTime":1443.13,"body":"needs to know, who are the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1439.14,"endTime":1443.13,"body":"stakeholders that we need to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1443.13,"endTime":1448.26,"body":"communicate with? Now, this is"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1443.13,"endTime":1448.26,"body":"an easy one to overlook. And I"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1448.26,"endTime":1450.9,"body":"think it's probably one of the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1448.26,"endTime":1450.9,"body":"biggest ones that we assume that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1450.9,"endTime":1455.07,"body":"somehow through osmosis, they"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1450.9,"endTime":1455.07,"body":"will discover it. But they're"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1455.07,"endTime":1460.2,"body":"also the ones who can come back"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1455.07,"endTime":1460.2,"body":"after we were way too far down."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1460.47,"endTime":1463.95,"body":"You know, that the timeline, who"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1460.47,"endTime":1463.95,"body":"when they didn't discover"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1463.95,"endTime":1466.71,"body":"things, they come back, and next"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1463.95,"endTime":1466.71,"body":"thing, you know, we have to redo"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1466.71,"endTime":1469.86,"body":"things we have to wasn't that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1466.71,"endTime":1469.86,"body":"they had to be consulted. But"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1469.86,"endTime":1474.45,"body":"once they were informed, they"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1469.86,"endTime":1474.45,"body":"raised all sorts of issues. So I"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1474.45,"endTime":1478.29,"body":"think we don't have a column"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1474.45,"endTime":1478.29,"body":"that says when do they need to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1478.29,"endTime":1482.07,"body":"be informed. But part of that,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1478.29,"endTime":1482.07,"body":"who needs to be informed, does"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1482.07,"endTime":1485.46,"body":"need to include where does that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1482.07,"endTime":1485.46,"body":"fit on the timeline? And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1485.49,"endTime":1488.64,"body":"ultimately, we're informing"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1485.49,"endTime":1488.64,"body":"people to keep them up to date,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1488.64,"endTime":1493.11,"body":"of course, but also because at"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1488.64,"endTime":1493.11,"body":"some level, them knowing helps"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1493.11,"endTime":1495.12,"body":"move the project forward. Does"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1493.11,"endTime":1495.12,"body":"that make sense?"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1495.99,"endTime":1498.03,"body":"Yeah, it absolutely does."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1495.99,"endTime":1498.03,"body":"And I think there is a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1498.03,"endTime":1500.97,"body":"difference obviously, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1498.03,"endTime":1500.97,"body":"you would hope Each project has"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1500.97,"endTime":1503.94,"body":"some form of communication plan"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1500.97,"endTime":1503.94,"body":"laid out that does have those"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1503.97,"endTime":1506.88,"body":"times and for the regular"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1503.97,"endTime":1506.88,"body":"communications and all of those"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1506.88,"endTime":1510.78,"body":"types of things. But being"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1506.88,"endTime":1510.78,"body":"intentional about that informed"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1511.17,"endTime":1516.33,"body":"concept is for the is is even"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1511.17,"endTime":1516.33,"body":"more important for the things"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1516.33,"endTime":1519.18,"body":"that don't fit the regular"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1516.33,"endTime":1519.18,"body":"communication schedule. So, you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1519.18,"endTime":1523.53,"body":"know, there's there's a saying"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1519.18,"endTime":1523.53,"body":"about, you know, always deliver"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1523.53,"endTime":1528.57,"body":"bad news early. Right? Don't"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1523.53,"endTime":1528.57,"body":"don't now, its a, especially in"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1528.57,"endTime":1531.9,"body":"my experience, once again, on"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1528.57,"endTime":1531.9,"body":"technical projects, there's this"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1531.93,"endTime":1534.24,"body":"sort of concept that we're going"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1531.93,"endTime":1534.24,"body":"to keep the problem in house"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1534.24,"endTime":1536.73,"body":"because we're sure we're going"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1534.24,"endTime":1536.73,"body":"to be able to fix it. And if we"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1536.73,"endTime":1539.07,"body":"can fix it, that we don't ever"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1536.73,"endTime":1539.07,"body":"have to tell anybody, it was a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1539.07,"endTime":1545.49,"body":"problem. And that's normally a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1539.07,"endTime":1545.49,"body":"recipe for disaster. And so you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1545.49,"endTime":1550.44,"body":"know, if you do have these,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1545.49,"endTime":1550.44,"body":"these inform, these people who"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1550.44,"endTime":1554.94,"body":"you know, you need to inform of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1550.44,"endTime":1554.94,"body":"certain major milestones or"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1554.94,"endTime":1561.57,"body":"major work products on a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1554.94,"endTime":1561.57,"body":"project, then, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1561.57,"endTime":1564.57,"body":"the type of person that you need"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1561.57,"endTime":1564.57,"body":"to go to and say, Hey, we have a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1564.57,"endTime":1567.78,"body":"problem. Now, we think we have a"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1564.57,"endTime":1567.78,"body":"solution, we think we can solve"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1567.78,"endTime":1572.73,"body":"this. But we have this major"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1567.78,"endTime":1572.73,"body":"issue that if we can solve, it,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1573.03,"endTime":1576.3,"body":"is going to become a major"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1573.03,"endTime":1576.3,"body":"problem for the project. And the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1576.3,"endTime":1578.7,"body":"earlier, you're able to deliver"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1576.3,"endTime":1578.7,"body":"some of that information,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1578.73,"endTime":1581.97,"body":"ultimately, the better off it is"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1578.73,"endTime":1581.97,"body":"for you in the project, even"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1581.97,"endTime":1584.25,"body":"though that's not always the"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1581.97,"endTime":1584.25,"body":"most pleasant conversation to"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1584.25,"endTime":1587.04,"body":"have. And I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1584.25,"endTime":1587.04,"body":"being intentional about filling"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1587.04,"endTime":1591.54,"body":"out that informs category makes"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1587.04,"endTime":1591.54,"body":"it easier for you to do that and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1591.54,"endTime":1593.55,"body":"makes you more likely to follow"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1591.54,"endTime":1593.55,"body":"through and those types of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1593.55,"endTime":1593.82,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1594.289,"endTime":1596.479,"body":"I really like that I think"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1594.289,"endTime":1596.479,"body":"that's a really powerful"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1596.719,"endTime":1600.199,"body":"observation. And I think every"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1596.719,"endTime":1600.199,"body":"one of us have been guilty of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1600.499,"endTime":1603.919,"body":"withholding information, if you"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1600.499,"endTime":1603.919,"body":"wish, at some point, just"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1603.919,"endTime":1605.959,"body":"keeping our fingers crossed and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1603.919,"endTime":1605.959,"body":"hoping that you know, the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1605.959,"endTime":1607.609,"body":"problem was going to go away,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1605.959,"endTime":1607.609,"body":"and we would never have to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1607.609,"endTime":1611.539,"body":"divulge it. But I think you're"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1607.609,"endTime":1611.539,"body":"absolutely right. And when we"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1611.539,"endTime":1615.889,"body":"have identified from the outset,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1611.539,"endTime":1615.889,"body":"who those stakeholders are, that"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1615.889,"endTime":1619.789,"body":"need to be informed, it does"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1615.889,"endTime":1619.789,"body":"make it a lot easier to enter"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1619.789,"endTime":1625.459,"body":"into that conversation. This has"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1619.789,"endTime":1625.459,"body":"been a quick review, if you wish"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1625.459,"endTime":1628.669,"body":"of the raci process. And"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1625.459,"endTime":1628.669,"body":"primarily it's not about the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1628.669,"endTime":1634.399,"body":"process as it is about helping"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1628.669,"endTime":1634.399,"body":"people deliver their best,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1634.549,"endTime":1638.599,"body":"because they are clear on who's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1634.549,"endTime":1638.599,"body":"responsible for what they"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1638.599,"endTime":1642.169,"body":"understand where the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1638.599,"endTime":1642.169,"body":"accountability lies, they are"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1642.169,"endTime":1648.289,"body":"getting feedback information or"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1642.169,"endTime":1648.289,"body":"consultation from the right"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1648.289,"endTime":1652.129,"body":"group of people. And they can go"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1648.289,"endTime":1652.129,"body":"to sleep, you know, comfortably"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1652.129,"endTime":1654.859,"body":"at night, knowing that the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1652.129,"endTime":1654.859,"body":"people who need to know what's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1654.859,"endTime":1659.359,"body":"going on are actually being"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1654.859,"endTime":1659.359,"body":"communicated with any closing"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1659.359,"endTime":1662.299,"body":"thoughts as we wrap up this"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1659.359,"endTime":1662.299,"body":"podcast."},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1664.579,"endTime":1666.709,"body":"Nothing I don't that I"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1664.579,"endTime":1666.709,"body":"don't think we've touched on you"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1666.709,"endTime":1670.519,"body":"know, I think there's lots of"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1666.709,"endTime":1670.519,"body":"variations on those models and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1670.519,"endTime":1673.339,"body":"lots of tools for doing that out"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1670.519,"endTime":1673.339,"body":"there. And I think they all have"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1673.339,"endTime":1677.929,"body":"merit. And you know, you can"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1673.339,"endTime":1677.929,"body":"argue about individual extra"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1677.929,"endTime":1680.149,"body":"categories that are added and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1677.929,"endTime":1680.149,"body":"all the rest of that. But I"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1680.149,"endTime":1683.719,"body":"think as you said the concept is"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1680.149,"endTime":1683.719,"body":"really that intentionality and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1683.719,"endTime":1686.509,"body":"making sure that you're you're"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1683.719,"endTime":1686.509,"body":"deliberately looking at this and"},{"speaker":"Dale","startTime":1686.509,"endTime":1687.349,"body":"making choices."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1687.739,"endTime":1691.459,"body":"Awesome, good stuff. Thanks"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1687.739,"endTime":1691.459,"body":"very much. Well, for listeners,"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1691.489,"endTime":1695.659,"body":"don't forget to check out the"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1691.489,"endTime":1695.659,"body":"show notes. They are going to be"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1695.659,"endTime":1699.769,"body":"some additional resources, if"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1695.659,"endTime":1699.769,"body":"you wish in their definition and"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1699.769,"endTime":1702.469,"body":"explanation of the raci chart."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1699.769,"endTime":1702.469,"body":"So if you want to get that as"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1702.469,"endTime":1706.759,"body":"well as perhaps some links to"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1702.469,"endTime":1706.759,"body":"help you expand on that. It's"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1706.759,"endTime":1710.359,"body":"not about a specific model. It"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1706.759,"endTime":1710.359,"body":"really is about the concepts"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1710.359,"endTime":1714.859,"body":"behind them. And I've enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1710.359,"endTime":1714.859,"body":"this conversation. Dale, thanks"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1714.859,"endTime":1717.739,"body":"very much for being part of"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1714.859,"endTime":1717.739,"body":"this. Thanks to Ela for"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1717.739,"endTime":1723.199,"body":"ngineering today. And we're"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1717.739,"endTime":1723.199,"body":"ooking forward to connecting"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1723.199,"endTime":1726.979,"body":"ith you in our next podcast."},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1723.199,"endTime":1726.979,"body":"ntil then, have a great time"},{"speaker":"Rod","startTime":1726.979,"endTime":1728.599,"body":"eading messy people"}]}