Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddhart here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness, and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.

[00:41] Katie: Very excited to have Sukun Chopra on the show today. Sukun works as a coach, she's a conscious living facilitator, and she works mainly with gen ZS young adults on dealing with life challenges and navigating through the digital construct by making conscious choices. Fantastic to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining.

[01:05] Sukun: Thank you for having me, Katie. This is great.

[01:09] Katie: We met, what, like a year, two years ago almost, I think, at one of Daria and Sen's leadership program.

[01:18] Sukun: Exactly.

[01:20] Katie: Nice. So we've been on this journey together, sort of, and I was also on your podcast. That was great. And so we've got a lot to cover in just 30 minutes, so let's see how far we get. I would begin with a topic that I know you work with and I know that's important for your work, which is around this idea of psychological safety and connection in the workplace. So I'd love it if you could just say a few words on what that means for you and why you feel this is such an important topic.

[01:49] Sukun: Okay, so that's good start. So I genuinely love people, and if you see me anywhere, you'll see me with everyone and just meeting everyone. And I've just come to realize that there is so much we have to offer and every single one of us has a story to share. So basically my passion is to actually understand why we humans are wired the way we are with all our quirks and imperfections. And I guess my interest in human psychology and understanding people in the workplace context began when I was working in my family business and leading the HR function. And also some gaps in not just with my business, but also when you observe and hear of things happening, like in the global arena, there is a gap in terms of what people want to say and what they actually end up saying in the workplace arena. Right. Because we have so many barriers that we operate with, and that actually creates a lot of challenges in performance, because when people aren't showing up as themselves, not just at work, but otherwise, it creates conflict. Right. So basically my interest is to create connection in the world by creating my spaces, my circles that I do through empathy, through compassion, through understanding, and a few other tools that I use. Yeah, nice.

[03:13] Katie: And this reminds me of a question I had the other day in one of my group coaching sessions, which was, how can you show up at work and show your emotions, which is exactly what you're talking about. So people feel they need to hide. People feel they need to have these barriers to be professional. So what would you say if she had asked you that question directly? How can you still show your emotions in the workplace? What would you have said?

[03:37] Sukun: If who had asked me if the.

[03:40] Katie: Person in the group coaching was the other day, if they had asked you, how can you show your emotions at work, what would you have answered?

[03:48] Sukun: I think it starts with a collective sense of safety because I've come to believe that you can only go as far and deep with people as they are willing to receive you, because it is a risk sometimes to be vulnerable. And unless other people are willing to accept you and hear you out and also reciprocate that vulnerability, sometimes that can backfire. But on a general sense, the whole culture, the way it's constructed, is that we have to put on our best selves. We have to show up a certain way, we have to attach ourselves to the titles we hold and the authority that we have, and that creates all the division. But if it starts with the top right, if leaders can actually put themselves out there and create that sense of open expression, that's where it all begins. So I don't think there's too much of a problem in showing your emotions because we are emotional beings. Like, we think we're logical, but I think everything we do is driven by emotions, whether we like to admit that or not openly. It's all with feelings. And the more real we are, I think the more at peace we are with ourselves. And sometimes you just got to take that risk and put yourself out there and at least maybe be the first one to share what's going on within you. And even if it's about sharing a challenge you're experiencing at work or a request that you have, yeah, it takes a big step, but I think it's worth the results that it brings in the long term.

[05:13] Katie: Absolutely. And I love what you said about it starting from the top. I think this is so important. This is why I love leadership so much, because I feel that if there's that sense of trust, if there's that environment where people feel safe, then it's a lot easier for people to open up and be more vulnerable. And what would you say are some of the key elements that leaders can maybe put in place to help to create this safe psychological space?

[05:40] Sukun: I think the first one is what I remember from Amy Edmondson, who is the founder of Psychological Safety from Harvard, and she talks about something called leaders should model fallibility. Which means that putting themselves out there and admitting that we are fallible in the sense that I can make mistakes and I am imperfect in my own way, not like, in those words, obviously. But the idea is to actually make imperfection normal, like normalize mistakes normalize the fact that we can't screw it up. And that's a huge aspect to letting people down the line know that we're okay to sometimes make mistakes and yeah, screw up along the way. There's no big deal. We won't lose our jobs with doing that. Because if leaders can do that, then imagine the impact of people down the line doing that. The other thing is using empathy and understanding the needs and feelings behind people's reactions in the workplace. Really going deep with that, right? Because very often we judge and dismiss people because they're coming across a certain way or not doing or not performing or whatever else it may be. And I think it really is about maybe being more curious about what's going on with this person than being judgmental and dismissing them. Because empathy, I think, is like a solver for most issues that we can think of and what actually exists in the world. Right? Yeah, nice. Empathy, open expression, curiosity. And a big one from Amy is modeling fallibility.

[07:13] Katie: Yes. So admitting that they can make mistakes, so that makes it easier for other people to admit their mistakes. And then having that sense of empathy and also what you said, that ability and maybe that willingness to dig deeper. And to actually look at what's going on and pay attention to people and see and pick up on cues and notice if someone isn't doing well and not just ignore it and focus on tasks and results and ignore the people's well being.

[07:41] Sukun: And by open expression, I really mean allowing people to express themselves openly. Know, very often we would penalize employees for lying and making up excuses, especially in India, where I come from, like, oh, my God, the sense of fear is so high. People are just unhonest. And we judge them like they're always liars and they don't do the right thing. But it goes back to the same question, right? Why are they lying? What is a fear? Where's the fear coming from? And if companies can recognize at a collective level that it's because they probably haven't got the safety to express themselves and say the truth as it is and call it as it is, then maybe that's why they're lying. Because lying is what it's just a fear driven behavior. At the end of the day, that's all it is. And it starts when we're kids, right? Like, why do kids lie? No, kids are taught to lie. I mean, no one's born with a lying ability, right? Like, we lie because we fear consequences, whether it's our parents or teachers or school or whatever else, and then we model that pattern when we get out in the real world.

[08:42] Katie: Yes, I love that lying is a fear driven behavior. There are many fear driven behaviors. And yes.

[08:47] Sukun: And honestly, Katie, I'm not sure how much of this is a challenge in the UK or America because I haven't worked in companies overseas. But I do know that in India, people being dishonest is a huge freaking problem. It's really annoying. They just leaves all the time. My grandmother's died like 50 times. I can't come to work because my grandmam's died. I mean, people are just not honest. And it just makes you think that what is going on? Why is there so much fear in this country? And I think it comes with a sense of authority and hierarchy because we're so much driven by respect and these big, bold titles. And that's my other point. The more leaders identify with their titles or authority, the more divisions there will be in the workplace. It's just as simple as that, because you're inventing and you're creating a barrier that I am here and you are there and we cannot mingle. So dissolving those senses of titles is the number one step to actually creating a sense of safety in the workplace.

[09:45] Katie: Yeah, that's interesting. It's true that that sense of authority sort of places you apart. And instead of thinking on a peer level where you can actually open up and maybe share more vulnerably, some of your emotions or what you're struggling with, suddenly you feel like you get intimidated. And if you're intimidated by your manager or your boss, then you're more likely to lie, being dishonest, hide, or at least not open up. So absolutely. But there still needs to be some sort of I guess it can't be a full barrier, then it blocks communication, it can't be fully open.

[10:18] Sukun: Have to have boundaries. You got to have boundaries. I will say that, but sure, you were saying?

[10:21] Katie: Yeah, exactly. So there has to be some sort of respect, obviously, understanding, but with that openness and that vulnerability. Amazing.

[10:31] Sukun: It starts with mutual respect. Sure.

[10:33] Katie: But yeah, that's all relationships, hopefully.

[10:38] Sukun: Right. But before you ask, can I just ask you, how is this dynamic in the UK? Are they okay with saying it as it is or you will find some sense of lying in that context as well.

[10:50] Katie: I mean, I don't live in the UK, but I do work with clients.

[10:53] Sukun: Sorry. Yeah, wherever you are.

[10:54] Katie: I mean, I'm in Sweden and Sweden has a very different culture. I mean, if we're speaking about Sweden specifically, I don't think lying is the issue. I think it's more hiding. So I think in Nordic countries, UK might be different a bit, but I think maybe Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland I feel that people hide things so they don't necessarily open up as much and they might not share and they're more secretive and private. So I think that's know, helping them to get out of their shell is more one of the top issues versus maybe lying. In India, for example, I don't feel that lying is really what's done culturally. It's more that people are more private.

[11:33] Sukun: But hiding is also another form of fear driven behavior. Right?

[11:37] Katie: Exactly. Yes. And then it's also cultural. I feel in general there in Sweden, people are quite private so they struggle to open up. But yeah, it's also fear driven but also culturally part of how they function, I think. Yeah, nice, interesting. I want to move on to the other topic because really, really passionate about this. Although I feel that, yes, connection in the workplace, super important psychological safety. But I love what you share and talk about in terms of conscious living. And this is really directly connected to my why. So when I read it, I feel it really hits me, my why being to empower people so that they can connect with the magic of living. And by this I mean the magic of living intentionally because I feel that conscious living and living with intention. Just amazing. So I want to hear your words on this, your input on this, to contrast it, compare it and discuss it further.

[12:36] Sukun: Yeah, I think this whole subject for me really ties into this aspect of self awareness which I believe to be the greatest agent of change. Because even now some part of me is self aware and some part of it is very unconscious. And that of course, starts when we're growing up and the behaviors that we adopt, the beliefs that we fall into. And I believe that there is never a time to like, it's never too late to change as long as you are aware, self aware, are introspective and are willing to change. Because I have seen fully grown adults in the 50s acts like they're stuck in the past and with the child ego taking over them. And it just fuels this aspect so much more of being self aware and making conscious choices. And now I basically adapt that for the younger lot who are overwhelmed in whatever way that they are. Social media like celebrity lives and this and that. And it's sort of like swaying them away from living their truth. So, yeah, I try and make content and spaces for young adults to live more authentically by making conscious choices. Which is done through self awareness.

[13:48] Katie: Yes. It all starts with self awareness. Absolutely. Love what you said. The biggest agent for change and transformation. I think self awareness is huge. If you're not aware of it, you can't change. Of course it seems obvious, but people underestimate how important it is. I remember when I did my coaching training and the trainer said the aim for coaches isn't that the client reaches their goal. And I was really perplexed by this. I thought what? They hire you for goal? That's not the aim. And I remember him saying the aim is that they have greater self awareness. And I thought, that's it.

[14:23] Sukun: That's so simple. Right. The thing is, I learned this recently that simple and easy are not the same thing. And this is my I spoke to this guy from LinkedIn right now. This morning, I'm in tumor. And he did a Ted Talk on exploring why lifestyle matters more than happiness. And in that Ted Talk TEDx Talk, he mentioned how simple is not the same as easy, because what's simple in principle is not always easy to implement, right? And you get why that is. It's just like fundamental. But we obviously don't do the stuff that we know we should be doing, and that's the dichotomy of human behavior sometimes.

[14:56] Katie: It's the same with meditation. Meditation is very simple. When I tell people, like, it's great to start a meditation practice, I say, Sit down and just kite to ten in your mind as you breathe redirect to your breath. And they just look at me. I'm like, yeah, simple. It's not easy. And it's the same with a lot of things. There's a lot of things in life that are very simple, but they're not necessarily easy to put in place. What was the name of the Ted Talk that you mentioned right now?

[15:19] Sukun: The next talk, you'll be very happy. I'm sharing this on someone else's podcast. It's by Tumo Tuomo. And it's called Why Lifestyle Matters More Than Happiness.

[15:30] Katie: Why lifestyle matters more.

[15:32] Sukun: I'm going to do a podcast with him. I actually will do a podcast with him on the same subject.

[15:36] Katie: Nice. Interesting. I'll check out the TEDx. Nice. Thanks for sharing. Okay, fantastic. Yes. I love what you said about the self awareness. 100 million% agree on this. And how do you help people so when they come to you and they're feeling stuck or maybe, like you said, overwhelmed with everything going on, how do you help them step away from that overwhelm? Maybe that autopilot living in that reactive, impulsive way to a more conscious way of living?

[16:01] Sukun: Well, the first simple answer is I just listen to them. And the second answer is, I question. So I find questioning to be a very powerful tool, because the moment you ask a new question that they may not have asked themselves before, they get out of their own minds and they receive new perspective. So I basically do this in group settings as well, and I create virtual spaces, whether on Twitter, not too much Twitter, but like, Clubhouse and Zoom, where I get a group of people together. And through this idea of collective sharing, we help each other get unstuck by listening, empathy, and asking insightful questions and receiving questions, because that's very important. So in terms of the more technical aspects, obviously, it starts with asking questions that lead to self awareness. And the stuff I usually deal with is habits for young adults, making better choices, becoming more aware of your patterns and self worth is, I think, a big one right now. And that, of course, leads as you grow through life, which creates other problems. So, yeah.

[17:01] Katie: Yes, I think it's huge. Self esteem habits. I think those are fantastic topics and they're sort of connected but sort of different ways. Habits are more sort of implementable way of doing it. And self esteem is more the mindset than the way we view ourselves. Maybe let's dive a bit into sort of the self belief, self esteem side of things because I'm sure a lot of people listening struggle with it either now or have a lot in the past or maybe they're going through a phase. So what are either some of the tools or some of the questions or some of your approaches that help people to go from that place of lacking in self belief, maybe in self confidence, self esteem, to feeling more empowered and more proactive in control of their life?

[17:45] Sukun: So the reason that we stay stuck with low self esteem is because we're choosing to believe our past patterns and we identify with that. Right? Because I am, because in a dialogue, of course, that's where it all starts. And if you've convinced yourself that you will not change, then you will not change. And I have had the same problem with my life in some ways and that's very demoralizing because when shame is like a paralyzer, it generally paralyzes people. When people are told that they're never going to change or they have been made to feel shameful about their behavior, then they stay stuck over there. So the whole idea is to shift from your disempowering self talk to more empowering talk that can create change and a better perspective for your future. And then, of course, comes the aspect of self worth. What are you really thinking of yourself as? Like, how are you identifying yourself as? Right. And these days with the younger lot, it's really about stuff that doesn't really matter. And in some ways it's about what I call or what is called vanity metrics on social media. Like how I'm showing up, how many followers I have, how many likes I have. And I think that for me is the biggest danger when people relate their sense of worth to these things that don't really have any significant value, that's the danger I'm seeing. So I really focus on the crux of what I'm seeing poses a problem in today's world. But what was the question again? I think I answered that right in terms of self esteem and like self.

[19:16] Katie: Yes, you did. Because you talked about rewiring the self, rewiring yourself.

[19:20] Sukun: Yeah. Yes.

[19:21] Katie: And that is an extremely powerful one. And I love what you said right now about the self worth and how people tie it to maybe vanity metrics or other things that aren't really related. And I feel that part of the secret of self worth is that we're all totally worthy in and of itself just from being alive. And I think there's this notion of you need to do something to achieve something, be something, look a certain way, be smart in a certain way to be worthy. And this is also something that I feel is encouraged in today's society through consumerism, because that's how they sell. Get this dress and you'll be prettier. Get this computer and you'll be faster. So people sell this. You're lacking something. So then we believe this, and we feel this need to buy to compensate. But if we all went back in the jungle and we were all living in huts, I think our self worth would probably be fine. Probably in a few weeks, we'd be like, hey, it's cool. I've got some friends. I do my own sort of fruit and veg in the forest. And I feel it's also very linked to today's society. That's what I mean, right?

[20:29] Sukun: And school, of course, plays a big, big role in this whole narrative. I fell in the same trap for, what, like, 17 years of my life from school. School ruined me in more ways than one. No self belief, very low self worth, because they would judge my whole being and worth based on my freaking marks. And I hated academics. Like, it was so boring. I didn't enjoy anything until I met psychology in my high school, basically. So that's my story in a nutshell.

[20:57] Katie: Yes, I can definitely relate with this. I think my self worth and confidence was probably okay till I reached 18. And then I did these intensive two years of math and physics in France, it's called. You know about them?

[21:11] Sukun: No? My mind was like, wow, at math.

[21:14] Katie: And physics, I was like, oh, class prepaid. You know about it? Because I was an engineer before. So I studied math and physics for two years, and that really broke all self confidence, belief. Obviously not all of it, because I was able to pick it back up, but it lowered it because essentially you're told that you're useless during two years. Some teachers even insult you, tell you how rubbish you are, tell you to. It's a very French sort of punishment way of working. And I enjoyed it in some way, not because I'm masochistic, but I like the challenged of it, and I like the math, but in terms of the self esteem, I often came out in tears, and I felt really rubbish, and I felt I wasn't small. Now, it's helped me in a lot of ways those two years, even now, decades plus later, because, A, it taught me to work really hard if I wanted to and to be super focused, which I use and resilience. Also, that also helped. But also it helped me to stay humble if ever, at any moment I start to feel in any way superior or high, I just need to remember those moments and be like, all right, you're nothing, because for two years, you're taught that you know nothing. And yes, it's hard to explain, but it puts you very low. And so even though I don't want to go back to that place, if I just vaguely remember it maintains me humble. So I think that's also useful.

[22:40] Sukun: Yeah, that's actually very cool, what you just shared. Very important to sometimes remind yourself of not imperfections, but where you can improve and that can keep you grounded. Very interesting.

[22:51] Katie: Yes. But also just remembering, we know nothing.

[22:54] Sukun: Right?

[22:54] Katie: I mean, that's what it's always a balance, because we're talking about self worth, self esteem, self belief, self confidence. So for people working on this, don't think you know nothing, right? The idea is you want to boost your self confidence, self esteem, but then there's also the danger of it goes too high, and then it's just you don't want to feel superior to other people. So that's in those moments when you start to feel because, of course, the more you work on your self confidence, you more work on empowerment, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and growth mindset. You start to think differently, and that's great. And you take on challenges and that's fantastic. But you can't tap into that superiority arrogance thing. So when you start to feel it coming in, that's when you remember, oh, right, I know nothing.

[23:39] Sukun: Exactly. I think it's like a good balance between having big goals for yourself on the personal side and every side, I guess, and also allowing yourself to be imperfect because you're human. Because if you can do that, then you'll be happy along the way than be judging yourself all the time, because that's where people really can lose the game.

[24:05] Katie: Absolutely. I think it's a balance of that sort of confidence. Confidence and humility, I suppose, is the two you want to sort of maintain, because confidence isn't arrogance, but if you push it too much, it can become it. So it's sort of that confidence.

[24:19] Sukun: I actually have a conclusion or theory on this. Arrogance is only a sign of deep rooted insecurity. It's not confidence. It's insecurity. Because the more people feel insecure inside, the more they project arrogance on the outside. And that's what most people miss. They think that, oh, he's so confident, he's so cocky. I mean, it could be cocky sometimes. But arrogance is basically a sign of insecurity for me. Not for me, but from what I've observed and what I've studied and learned.

[24:46] Katie: Yeah, you're right. I did used to think that too. I guess maybe I'm thinking of something else. I think you're right. I think arrogance or superiority are a form of repressed, insecurities.

[24:59] Sukun: All very deep stuff, man. We're very complex beings, I always say. Very many layers to our being, and it all shows up in different ways.

[25:08] Katie: Yes, it is super important, what we're saying right now. Self worth, self belief, rewiring the self talk, I think. Yes, absolutely fundamental. And this, again comes, as we were talking about just before, in terms of self awareness, because the more you're aware of your inner dialogue, the more you catch yourself when you say I'm useless or I can't do this or this won't work, the more then you can sort of reframe, rewire, rewire. And that's why self awareness is such a gift, because then you can use it, right, to re empower, to change your self talk, to put in place changes that you want in your life. Yeah, it's kind of fundamental, I think.

[25:45] Sukun: Exactly. Because you know how the saying goes, you don't know what you don't know, and you can only change what you do know. There you go.

[25:52] Katie: Yeah. You don't know what you don't know. I know that's a big one. I often think about that when I think about when I started my own business, because there were so many areas I knew nothing about. And I just think, well, I just didn't know that. I didn't know there was Brand.

[26:07] Sukun: And there's never an end. There's always stuff you'll never know. And that's the whole point of life. You'll just always keep evolving and learning and receiving new wisdom on the way. That's what makes it so fun.

[26:18] Katie: Yes. It's interesting to think I think it was in the 15th century that it was possible for one human being, probably Leonardo DA Vinci. I don't know when exactly he lived, but it was possible for one to have literally all the knowledge in the world. Like it was almost physically possible in terms of time and mental space. Something like 15th century. Yeah.

[26:40] Sukun: No.

[26:40] Katie: Incredible.

[26:41] Sukun: Right?

[26:41] Katie: Like everything in terms of science, biology, because it was still limited the amount of science.

[26:47] Sukun: I see what you mean. Oh, man. Imagine that. Now my brain would burst, literally. Wow.

[26:53] Katie: Impossible. Impossible. They kind of makes me sad that there'll be things I never know. I mean, I guess I'm not interested in absolutely everything, but I love knowledge and I love learning stuff, so it kind of sad.

[27:06] Sukun: Who knows? Could be a possibility with neuralink. Who knows what the future holds for us?

[27:11] Katie: We might be able to have these inner chips that we put in encyclopedic chips, and then we all know everything. That would be crazy. That'd be scary.

[27:18] Sukun: Yeah.

[27:19] Katie: Nice. Anyway, we're coming to the last few minutes of today. We went on a lot of topics from psychological safety that was quick, man. I know. Connection in the workplace to more empowerment and how we can step away from sort of negative self talk and live more consciously, which is something we're both passionate about. What would be your last tip advice, last words for the people listening today.

[27:45] Sukun: In terms of connection in the workplace, what we talked about earlier? Sure. Meet people where they are to expand on that. Do you get what that means?

[27:55] Katie: Yes.

[27:55] Sukun: Meet people where they are at their level because that creates huge connection and trust. And that's very important in every dynamic, not just the workplace, but every dynamic in life. And then I want to say it is never. Too late to change or rewire your beliefs, as long as you're open to believing in that possibility. Do stay self aware and do not attach your sense of worth to what you see on the outside, because that's not worth it. Those are my few takeaways. Yeah.

[28:24] Katie: Amazing. I love this. Thank you so much for being on The Social kun I really, really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for being here today.

[28:29] Sukun: Likewise. And thank you for having me. Katie and finally we did it. Woo.

[28:34] Katie: Amazing.

[28:39] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Bee Show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback, so let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead.