[00:00] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddhart here aka the focus b. And on this show I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.

[00:36] Katie: Absolutely thrilled to have Anna Nord on the show today. Anna is the global people partner at one of the tech leaders on the market. Anna specializes in supporting leaders and employees through rough and rapid changing environments. Wonderful to have you on the show today, Anna. Thank you so much for joining.

[00:57] Anna: Thank you. It's pleasure to be with you Kathy. Today talking about important topics.

[01:03] Katie: Yes, talking about important topics. I remember when we recently met and we met face to face, which was great. You mentioned that you need a team of 6000 people.

[01:14] Anna: Yeah, it's not it's a unit 6000, but yeah, it's around 3000. It's a lot.

[01:22] Katie: Amazing. So you know quite a fair bit about leadership and also navigating uncertainty and change and this is what we really want to focus on during our conversation. But first, before we discuss change and uncertainty, what would you say are some of the key components to being a great leader?

[01:43] Anna: It's abroad, right? If we had more hours, I would talk about this in a deep but I think that overall managing nowadays in a rapidly changing environment with the really economic downturn and volatile times, you expect it to be the authentic leader. You expect it to be trusted role modeling behaviors. You expect it to be the leader who is creating the leaders, not followers. And of course leading with integrity and purpose. This is something that super important right now when we build leaders of tomorrow and what we expect for them from them in current environment.

[02:32] Katie: I love what you shared about the authenticity and the integrity, but also about what you said about creating leaders and not followers. Can you explain a bit more how leaders can go about doing that?

[02:46] Anna: Yeah, I think the leaders, they were not born right. It's something that you get skill by practicing the right behaviors and how you're navigating all of the difficulties, a job and life. And I think it's very important nowadays for leader to step back, to really look what's going on, to try to understand your team, to get as much as possible data if you can, to get feedback from your people and really listen to them. And then based on that, making your evaluation what's happening, and then, of course, this kind of openness, because people really feel that they are leaders who can be open and very trusted. So if you open for them, the people will just want to work with you. And another thing, I think what creates a good leader, it's showing vulnerability, showing that I'm also a person, I'm also human. I also understand that this is a difficult but we will manage together and people really like such kind of leaders. In my practice, what I see when you show that you are together with your team and no matter what you try to navigate the change and difficult times together, it's really engaging for the people. So talking about the topic, about the change, I think navigating change for leaders, of course it's tough and we are talking that it's not easy and we understand in what kind of environment they are. But also some leaders, they do a mistake. They think that communication equal engagement. And I don't think so because it's not enough just to communicate the change. You need to think about how you engage your team, how you work with them and what motivates them in this time, especially in the change management time. So it's kind of broad, I would say. But the most important listen your people, I would say yes.

[05:03] Katie: It's not only about the communication through, like you said, engagement, but through also listening and understanding. And this leads to sort of the second part really of the conversation around managing change and uncertainty, which is how can leaders help teams and company to navigate change? Especially when some of the members are very resistant to it. What are some of the methods in which leaders can facilitate that change?

[05:33] Anna: Yeah, I think key here is the basics, right? When we listen about the change of course it's a normal to be resistant first, we want to understand how it impacts me second, we need to understand reasoning and then we want to understand the perspective what would be in the future, what would be this kind of change? So I think like four components very important in the communicating. First it's communication. Why so reasoning? Why it's changing? What's behind of that? Helping people to really understand and connect the dots then it's very important to clarify priorities in this change, clarify timelines what is going to be happened. So more about the what part because people, they want to understand what's happening on what phase and how it will impact me but also to plan their life accordingly with what's happening at work. So it's absolutely normal. So I think the third piece it's also giving the somehow control and give people to be the essential part. Of this change. You can't offer this everyone, but you can find change agents in your team to involve them into conversation, to make them feel that they really influence this change together. And then these change agents, they would be kind of ambassadors for other employees. And this is I'm talking in a big scope organization. Of course, for small organization, it's working much easier because you can reach every employee, you can talk to them in a bigger scope. You really need to plan all the stages and phases for that. And the final part. It's very important, of course, to understand during the way of the change feedback what they're telling to us, what kind of support people need because support part is super important. What they missing in this change? Do they need understand more about the change curve? Do they need any, I don't know, learning some people maybe they need even more crucial support like a therapy for the employees for whom changes affected their job role, for example, or even the position in the company. It could be kind of massive. So giving the support super important and helping people with just explaining that we the same on this boat. And I think this is a good practice, managing change comparing with the pandemic time. Because during the pandemic it was kind of easy for. Not easy in sense of the overall what's happening in environment. But we were all on the same boat, so we had almost the same situation together. And that makes a really good belonging for people. Now when we're working in post Pandemic time, but in a very difficult time because lots of industries they shutting down. Some of the industries they have not a good financial situation and overall situation, geopolitics, globalization, digitalization. It's tough. Environment. War in Ukraine. So all this impacting of course, the business. And in post pandemic time, it's easy to lose the belonging part during the change. So you need to keep really all of these attributes. Why communication? As I mentioned, give a support to your people feedback and find your change ambassadors because you're not only one leader who is making the change, it's a teamwork.

[09:39] Katie: Yes, I love this idea of change ambassadors and it was very interesting what you're saying, that when there's one global problem that affects everyone, that does create that solidarity and that sense of belonging. But on the other hand, when there's multiple different sort of issues affecting people differently, then you no longer have this connection. And on top of that, there's the complications of hybrid work online offline and these sort of things that now have really shifted and changed culture, I think, in many ways. And speaking of which, I'm sure that throughout your experience as a leader, you have gone through many culture shifts and changes. And is that similar culture shifts compared to Navigating change? Do you feel it's a similar framework?

[10:28] Anna: I think no, I think it's very similar. I think now, as I said, managing change, it's a managing mindset and managing mindset, it's a managing culture. So that's why for me it's absolutely equal and it's good when companies really prepared for the difficult times, when they had the programs around the culture, when they put what's the leadership expectation, what's the employee expectation, what company can you provide, what's the purpose and vision connected to the cultural shift? So for me it's definitely they're equal.

[11:12] Katie: Yes, I also see it that way. And you touched on something very important just before when you mentioned that it's important that people feel that they are part of the change. And I think that some people really live change and cultureship as a victim mentality feeling that they're victims and just things are changing around them that they didn't want in the first place.

[11:36] Anna: Right?

[11:36] Katie: So you've got people who thrive on change. That's me. I love change and novelty. But there are people who don't. And of course nothing is better than the other. It's just we all are different and wired differently. And so for these people who feel they're bit of victim circumstances and change, how can you help them as a leader to embrace that and actually take part and be part of it when it's not what they initially chose?

[12:05] Anna: I think it's important to always show the positive effect because not necessarily change means something negative. You can look at change from the different angles, it's how you look at the changes right? So I think it starts with the simple communication that we now live in such a volatile world, and every day is just a change. So if you explain more that change is a new comfort zone. So look at the change as a part of the opportunities and chance instead of change as a negative word, then I think more showing the real examples, how positively it can affect you. That will bring people some of the idea about oh, I can look at from the different angle. And we all have a life situation very difficult and we struggle. But from my personal experience and when I felt the time when my life is totally roller coaster, I always try to look at dissertation understanding. It's a short term. It's not going to be such a difficult for so long. But it's going to be light in the tool now. And this positive thinking will help people. I think to overcome difficulties, change not being so resistant to that and understanding that we are living in such a world. It's just the way we need to change our mindset around that. And of course, communication is key here. So to help leaders to better communicate about change, to in place and support leaders in that they're also missing, that we expect from them so many things to be done. But sometimes you understand, they, of course, busy around. That. But if they chose to be the leader always say it's a people leadership. Then you need to understand this is the way you choose to be. We understand leadership. It's not easy. And change is not easy. But you become a better leader when you have also difficulties. Not only easy and non bumpy road on your way, right? So yeah something like that I feel.

[14:48] Katie: Like what you're saying is for a leader to help people to navigate change, navigate uncertainty and deal with it they need to be able to do it themselves and through that roller coaster that can be both in work and in private life. The more a leader is able to ground himself and master dealing with that anxiety and that change, the more then the leader can be a role model also for other people. And they will maybe see, because as you said, if they're vulnerable and they're open, other people will maybe see, oh, this was actually pretty tough for them as a leader. Therefore if this is tough for me, that's okay, right? It's part of the journey and there's no sort of perfectionism, there's no leaders out there managing change super easily and then other people struggling and falling. It's more like everyone has ups and downs through life and then it's how to stay centered. So maybe here would be interesting to explore. How do leaders learn to stay grounded with uncertainty and change? It can be very tough personal circumstances or business circumstances or world circumstances that can really shake individuals. But sometimes, often leaders have more pressure, right? They have more responsibilities and to manage and they need to show up more effectively because they're also role models for others. So how can leaders then master themselves this navigation through change?

[16:20] Anna: I think it's all connected to the as we mentioned before, vulnerability, right? Understanding that you're also human and sometimes you need to set boundaries and focus on your mental health. And I think here it's very important part and piece that connected to all of this change management and leadership, it's a well being piece. So if leader prioritize correctly time for the family, for own well being then it's better for the leader to do the self management piece, I would say. And then role modeling this behavior because we see a lot when the leader is showing respect to the well being, own well being, sharing the stories about own hobbies, prioritizing time with family, spending really quality vacation time, setting boundaries with the real stories and examples, that really has a snowball effect. So people start to really addicted to that. Okay, my leader role model in this and I have a tough situation, I also need to prioritize. So I think it's a good balance between work life, your well being and also I always said that you can do quality job only at that time when your brain well rested. So you need to give in your crazy life circumstances and crazy work to give a space for well being. It's super important. So I think being connected with your team and role modeling you need to really respect your well being as a leader and sometimes step out and said that it's for me important just to feel okay, to deliver great results and to be connected and role modeling great behaviors.

[18:33] Katie: Yes, I think that if you're able to role model and show that well being has an important place in your life then as you said, it's easier for other people to model that or to get inspired by it or to feel that they're allowed to do it. Also, this is quite common. Some people, if they're in a very high pressured environment or company with leaders who are working insane hours, then they can feel that pressure to do the same. And of course that can lead to burnout overwhelm people leaving. Whereas on the other hand, if you've got a leader who really values their time off, who doesn't send emails over the weekend, who is present for their family and has those boundaries, then employees feel that they can do the same. And this is where I always feel that the self leadership, the self management which includes obviously well being practices is a fundamental aspect of leadership as a whole.

[19:32] Anna: Right?

[19:32] Katie: You can't have leadership without self leadership.

[19:35] Anna: Yeah. This morning I participated in one of the HR community breakfast. This is actually first time after Pandemic. Was so cool to meet people in real and all of that. You look at the person virtually for maybe three years, knowing this person and then meeting face to face, it's so cool. But the topic, what we raised today was around the burnout and how to manage that because the pace overall of the business and intensity is really high after Pandemic time specifically and the business and geopolitical environment crazy. And it was a lot of discussion about how we can prevent this burnout of the people leaders. So we covered this topic as well, that this role modeling well being becoming even more important than during the Pandemic time. Because now after Pandemic we can learn really great practices, habits, how to manage that. But now it's kind of another level of complexity and work and life difficulties and we see the world becoming not easier every single year. And if we personally not be prepared for that, not be resilient, then it would be really bad outcome. So it's a really time now for companies and especially people function together with the business, working closely really to prevent burnout, thinking about the well being of employees in this volatile time. So I was really happy to hear that around 30 participants, it's on agenda, all people community. So everyone just saying yeah, it's one of the priority right now, honestly.

[21:39] Katie: Yes, you're saying that it's almost more important for leaders to do this just because then they're able to set the example for everyone else. So if they focus on it even more then it can really help others to get inspired. And what were some of the outcomes that were discussed this morning? What were some of the ideas in terms of helping leaders to have these well being practices?

[22:02] Anna: Yeah, very interesting ideas about, of course tools, what kind of tools, what kind of benefit packages. But at the end we talked about a lot about the culture and this mindset shift. So if company really embracing the culture, empathy, humanness well being, diversity, then it's much easier for company rather than the old school model. So giving the space in your people strategy, focusing on well being, it's definitely a competitive advantage now in hybrid way of working. Yeah, and some really good findings, sharing, surround engagement of people, what kind of practices of well being in terms of the benefits companies using. So I think it's always good to hear other insights other than when you work in a specific company and then to look what others doing in this area. But yeah, leadership in change, in transformation, it's becoming really crucial and then we as a people function, it definitely need to be in partnership with them to help them not with the way of admin stuff, but with the coaching into the right direction of managing this change in a correct way, in a correct way, nobody knows. But you need to practice that with the, as I said, empathy, with really clear communication, with trust to your people, respect. And of course building this resilience, it's very important.

[24:03] Katie: Yes, the resilience is always important. No matter what you do. It helps you to stand on your feet and navigate life in general. And yes, it always interesting to sort of brainstorm with a group of people on these sort of topics. Other people and leaders and companies have different way of doing things. I'm also curious, what was a key learning you had in your leadership journey maybe a while back where you really felt okay, you had a key sort of mindset shift or a change in your leadership style that helped you to navigate change or to manage people that were resistant to it. So if you look back 510 years, maybe as you took on some senior roles in HR, what were some of the shifts you went through?

[24:50] Anna: I think shifts started becoming not only leader who deliver and execute, the key shift coming to leader, who human, who empathetic, who listen in people and who is the people leader. So I see more and more need in organization and how I feel that now you don't need so much technical leaders, it's very important, but you need a combination. You need strong technical leaders, but at the same time you need the people leaders who knows how to work with employees, who knows how to with the soft skills, correctly communicate, engage them, listen, opinion, do really professional presentation. So these soft skills, people leadership, it's becoming super crucial and I definitely see this shift and it of course depends on the organization you're working in. Current organization, strong focus on culture, empathetic leadership, fact based decisions, execute, but really strong focus as well on the shift in terms of well being, it depends on the company, of course. But I see overall what I listen from my colleagues and from my network, it's definitely need now in people leaders who can deal with the employees on a natural level and help them to grow and becoming the next generation leaders because nobody wants to have followers. Every leader creates a new leader generation. And that's very interesting to see how some of the leaders, they managing this, but some of the leaders, they just on the same stage of development. And it means that maybe that's not a good choice to be the leader, then maybe you need to move to individual contributor role. So it's also fine. But, yeah, you need to be the natural leader nowadays, navigating such a huge scope of overall work and life and it's not going to be easy in the future.

[27:27] Katie: Yes, it's always like this with leadership. And I love what you keep saying about leaders create new leaders. And I think that's really the key. If the emphasis is put on just having people following your rules and orders, then you're totally disempowering the organization and people around you. Whereas if the emphasis is putting on helping other people to grow, that's where what you said, the people skills, that empathy, that's where it all comes into play. So what would be your last words? Because we're already approaching the last few minutes of today's episode. What would be your last words regarding helping leaders to navigate change and uncertainty?

[28:06] Anna: I think it's like a final world. It's a unique time we live in. It's definitely not an easy and I have a strong belief that if you focus on your authentic leadership well being, focus on employees well being, it will help a lot to lead and navigate change. And also for me, it's super important to focus. Sometimes you feel it's very huge as a change, but focus on what you can control and influence what you can influence. And sometimes you need to do the baby steps just to see the results. So I think nowadays it's super important to really recognize even small results and engage people in that. That's super important.

[29:13] Katie: Amazing. Thank you so much, Anna. This has been such a wonderful conversation. It's been lovely to talk about leadership and navigating change, but also well being, culture shift. It's been a real pleasure to have you on the show today.

[29:26] Anna: I was delighted to talk to Katie today. Thank you for this opportunity.

[29:32] Katie: You're welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[29:39] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Be show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback. So let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you wonderful, magical and focused day ahead.