[00:00] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddhart here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness, and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.

[00:36] Katie: It's a real joy to have Nyen Vrong on the show today. Ng is a contemplative enneagram thought leader, and today we're going to look into how we can use the Enneagram to better understand ourselves and to find fulfillment in our life. It's wonderful to have you here, Nian. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

[00:57] Nhien: Yeah, so great to be here, Katie. I'm excited about this.

[01:01] Katie: Yeah, we've got so many amazing things to cover. It's going to be super tight to fit it all in 30 minutes, but I'm sure we'll manage. And yes, I mean, it's wonderful. We met at the Enneagram conference in Stockholm maybe six months ago or so. Always great to meet people offline first, and we both share a deep interest on the Enneagram, and today we'll maybe touch on it a bit, but we'll look more into how we can be fulfilled and use this as part of our way towards fulfillment. Right. This is one of the key aspects of using the inogram. Okay, so let's dig in. Let's dive straight in. How do you feel that people can actually use their values and live a more values and purpose base in order to be fulfilled? Right, so let me reformulate. How can we use our values as a compass and have this strong sense of clarity around what meaning and purpose is so that we can live in a more fulfilled way?

[02:05] Nhien: Yeah, well, I would say that learning you mentioned the Enneagram, that learning our basic enneagram personality type is a way in which we sort of develop this map toward our authentic self. Right. So our own values is very different from the values that we took on, whether in our childhood through our family environment, our spirituality, or religion of origin. There are all these shoulds or all these ideas about what we think we want, what we should want, et cetera. And there's something about understanding that personality type structure as almost like the persona or the facade of you and then being able to dig in beneath that into what's true for you. So my passion is supporting people in this kind of sacred inner listening, because if we don't have that I work with a ton of leaders who are very successful right, in the outside world. Like, they're very capable people, very skilled, and oftentimes by the time they come to me, there's something nagging at them where they're not completely happy with where they are. Or maybe it's like after that next goal is accomplished right after that next vacation, is taken like the thing that you thought you wanted and you realize, oh, it's not actually satisfying. So what we could do using the enneagram is we can get beneath that by hearing the typical stories that your particular egoic persona or your enneagram type will tend to tell you. So we can give specific examples. I can use you if we want.

[03:49] Katie: Yeah, definitely use me to give some info to the people listening. My enneagram personality is seven, which is a sort of myo Briggs ENFP, which is a sort of disc hi, I then followed by s, seven, wink, six. And this means that I'm, like an eternal kid, means I'm driven by fun. So I like fun, enthusiastic, have FOMO a lot, and do lots of different things. And that's probably why my company is the focus p, because I've learned to focus, and that's something seven did a lot. So, yes, use me as an example, neem, by all means, yes.

[04:29] Nhien: Well, it sounds like you're already well on your path, because that would be exactly the recommendation for those who come to me who are any grand type sevens. I'll give you just a few examples of others. Like, I had this guy who's a founder of this startup company, and as he was managing those below him, he couldn't make a decision about what course to take. He was an idea generator, but there was a struggle with the people who worked with him of like, well, choose a path that was so difficult for him to commit to one path. And after working together. So not only was he able to commit to it, but they ended up selling the company in this magnificent way because he was able to kind of settle in to a choice point, if you will, understanding that the Sevens basic structure is about escaping from pain and escaping from limitation through maintaining sort of endless choices and options and ideas. Right? So that if one might not work, you can jump to the other. Is a lot of nodding here. There's a gift in that, right? Because sevens have this agility of mind, this ability to see things that most of us can't see, like just in their own head, sitting there, right? You have all these options already generated, but the idea is that sevens have a fear around committing to one. And so understanding that underlying thing allows a seven to be like, oh, if I'm willing to be with the strain and the pain of feeling limited, what I find is that by staying, by grounding, by committing, there's a richness, there's an inner adventure, there's space for something that wouldn't have unfolded had I not stayed right here. So that's an understanding of how fulfillment can happen, like in sevenness.

[06:39] Katie: Yeah, that's a really good example, and I can definitely see that. I mean, in me, obviously, everything you said, but I can see that with relationships and with a place that commitment leads to that depth. And where I struggle most is still in business. I still like to do a lot of things, but I don't want it to be focused primarily on me. Let's not turn it into but what I want to look at more is how this is a good example and these are the sort of things I still need to work on. But what I'd love to know is, okay, how through the enneagram or through understanding our personality in general, can we get to that place of fulfillment? So this was using seven as an example, but in general, what do you feel is like, the barrier that we need to go through? Like, in the case of seven, it was commitment, for instance, as an example or focus. But in general, what do you feel are the sort of barriers we need to go through to get to this place of fulfillment?

[07:40] Nhien: Yeah, well, I think the general idea is that each enneagram type, like, there are nine different types around the circle. I don't know how basic we want to get here around it, but let's just say there was nine different enneagram types, personality types. The enneagram is much deeper than the enneagram of personality. But that's just basically personality is like threshold, right? Like to the wilderness of our magnificent and dynamic self. It's like the doorway, if you will. And so what we find is that naming our personality type is a required first step because there's something about recognizing, hey, you historically might have identified with, well, I'm the fun one or I'm the interesting one. Right? What happens is you think that identification uplifts you when it actually limits you, right? Because you are more than just that. Like, you have capacities that are well beyond that. Here I am going back to seven because I love specific examples, but if you didn't know that was your persona, then you'd overidentify with. So the beginning is naming our enneagram type. And a lot of times people are like, well, I'm not just one type. Well, that's the idea. But the whole idea is historically we tend to identify with a certain persona and the enneagram names the one that you identify with unconsciously or consciously. And so by doing so, the idea is that the enneagram doesn't put you in a box, right? It helps you see the box you're already in and therefore helps you to transcend it. And so that transcendence is about like, whoa, there's this whole field of me, of who I am, my wholeness that wasn't even available, for instance. I'll use myself as an example. Now I identify as type three, which is often seen in leaders in the world because threes are the achievers, the performers of the enneagram, right? There's something about like, I am what I do that is like the essence of being well, what happens is if my identity or my worth is about what I do, then my life is like an endless to do list. Right. Threes are notorious for moving the goal post back. As soon as you've achieved a goal, you move it back, and it's like there's never satisfaction and never a sense of well being in that. And so this notion of, like, I am not just what I do. Right. That my wholeness and my worth is bigger than that. That's the beginning of the journey. But you first have to name that. That was your fallacy in the first place, right? That that was your limiting belief in the first place. That's what the Enneagram helps us to do, and it helps us to do that in nine different ways. Right. Again, these are just snapshots of what that might look like. But by understanding that, then what I come to recognize is, oh, wow, I live very differently, or I should say I lived very differently when I thought that my worth, like, my value to you, was earned continually. That means that in every moment, there's a sense of hustle. Right. There isn't a sense of peace, there isn't a sense of well being. And also, that kind of mentality creates competitiveness rather than collaboration. I remember most of my life I felt extremely lonely, and I couldn't understand why people could just feel it in me. Like, I'm not here to connect with you. I'm here to win. I was sad, but I didn't know because it was so unconsciously within me. So the first thing was consciously recognizing that spirit in me. And then the second thing was going, oh, having compassion for that attitude of, oh, that's how you think you'll be loved. But it actually takes you further and further away from love. It takes you further away from knowing your own belovedness. So if you will just stop. Like the willingness to pause, to stop, to practice being right, to not just think about what I could accomplish in a moment, but how each moment is for me, like, how I can enjoy it. How can I savor? How can I take the time to look at the tree that's outside my window right here? You can't see it because it's dark right now. It's only a m in the United States. But I actually enjoy life now. It's amazing. Right? And I enjoy it because I believe I deserve it. Whereas before, it's like there was an endless quest to deserve life. That aspect. Yeah. And so that's, again, just one example of how understanding the Enneagram could point me toward wholeness. I think the Enneagram points us all toward wholeness, but we start with different orientations, right? Yeah. And I want to add something about, like, in my experience, naming type and seeing the characteristics of the prison, essentially, that we each live in through this. Egoic identification is just the first step. In my experience. If people don't have some sort of mindfulness or meditative practice, it can be very difficult to transcend that way of being, right. But there's something about being able to self observe, right, which I would say is different from self reflection. Because when I was younger, I was like, I was a philosophy major, I was very self reflective. And by that I meant I would see well after the fact, well, I know why I do that, I just can't stop doing that. I know exactly why I do that. Right? And so many of us come to that place where we're like, oh yes, well, I know what I should and shouldn't be doing, but I can't stop. And what I find is mindfulness practices like meditation. Viktor Frankl said that in the space between in stimulus and response, there is a space, right. Between stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space lies our freedom. Right? Meditation for me, carves a larger space between stimulus and response. And it's like, oh, I don't have to act right now. Like if I'm willing to pause, if I'm willing to stay with the sense that I feel worthless and empty, then I start to fill up. It's not by going after that thing that I will fill up. Because that's endless, that's an endless journey, right, that never fulfills. And so that ability to stay, to be that's through the practice of meditation and mindfulness, which is part of the core of what I teach everybody I work with. I work with communities, I work with organizations, I work with individuals, I work with couples and families. In the end, if you don't have that capacity to be with in the moment, be with yourself. It's very hard to transcend that self.

[15:00] Katie: I definitely feel that a lot of people can identify with that sort of hyperachiever, goal oriented, achievement oriented perspective, even if they aren't type three, because there are a lot of people who are driven by these achievements. I know I recognize myself a lot in what you just shed. I have a lot of three energy. A lot of people think I'm a three. But it's also because as a type seven, I have this both with achievements at work, the never enough, the further the goalpost that once you arrive, they get next one. But I also have it with fun, so I have it with the hobbies and the social life. So it's like a double combo. So one of the things I had to learn most very similar to what you shared, be already, be grateful for what you have. Enjoy in the moment. Show that gratitude, be present and calm down, right?

[15:48] Nhien: Relax.

[15:48] Katie: Not always this sort of constant chase for more. More achievement, more things, more hobbies, more. Yes. So I think that was one of the things I know I worked a lot with my coach. I remember almost being in tears and saying, but it's just never enough. I was just thinking enough in terms of time enough in terms of goals, enough in terms of hobbies, and it's just a sort of greed for more things and stimulation. But that comes exactly as you shared from this avoidance, right? Especially in type seven, avoidance of the pain. But most people also avoid. There's always something that they're uncomfortable with, that they're not facing. Maybe they're not aligned in their career, and they'll just sort of avoid. And also loved what you said about Viktor Frankl and that space, because it's exactly what I say about meditation. I always know between what happens, that stimuli and the response. There's that gap, and when you meditate, you strengthen it, and that's when you're particularly impulsive, as I used to be, and many people are, and you snap quickly or you end up doing something fast. You need this gap to change that response. You need this gap to not snap or not act in a rush or not be impulsive. And that is really the best way to train it, is meditation. Of course there are other ways, but I really feel that's the core so love that, and so nice to hear someone else say it and explain it so well. Then I could just be when I'm explaining it to someone next time, I'll be like, wait a minute, open up the interview, just show people. And then you did it beautifully. So thank you. And it's so nice to hear that we are aligned on this. Okay, so coming back to transcending our personality and fulfillment. I love this theme of fulfillment. Someone asked me this morning, what's my mission? What's my goal? What's my vision? What's my mission? I just said typical seven. I just said I want people to be happy, but what I really mean is I want them to be fulfilled. And obviously not in an instant gratification type of way, but in a deeply fulfilled, living, meaningful, purposeful, intentional lives without the overwhelm, without the clutter and finding that peace of mind alignment and deep spiritual and intellectual and mental growth that they need for that sense of fulfillment. So love the theme of fulfillment. What is one thing, meditation, aside, that you feel really supports people to be more fulfilled? Aside from knowing the enneagram type and meditating, what do you feel really helps people to feel fulfilled?

[18:38] Nhien: Well, I feel like I'm just repeating myself a little bit, but I'm so passionate about this notion of presence. Yes, that presence is itself. It's like valuing the journey right over the destination. There is a way in which I'll say that when you come to know the enneagram at depth, you understand that both sevens and threes are future oriented types, right? So there's a way that each of us, no matter what our type, is not present. Some are past oriented, right? Some are oriented toward one aspect of the present moment. But presence is something different altogether. And it's the capacity to be like here, to embrace the joy and blessing of our sheer aliveness, right? Like our being. That, to me, is when people find fulfillment, right? It's only in the present moment because we're only ever in the present moment, right? So as soon as we're in the future, right, that's the present moment. But if our radar and the enneagram teaches us what our respective radars are, are for the future, are for the past, are for what's wrong? For type ones, it's like, what's wrong in the present rather than the fullness of the present. We're not present in that capital P presence way that allows us to savor. And I'll even give the seven as an example. So when you come to learn the enneagram, you come to understand that each of the numbers or each of the types has like a default addictive emotional habit, if you will. Some people call that the vice or the passion of the type. But essentially what you described, Katie, is that for the seven, it's called Gluttony, right? And Gluttony is like a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Like, it's never enough, right? And it's jumping around. It's not like all of one thing. It's like over, fear of missing out, it's a little bit of everything. And so that energy, again, there's a blessing to that because you have agility, right? But what happens is it becomes fixated and you can't stop when you want to. So what about when you grab a little bit of something and it's amazing, right? The seven is like, but what about that next thing that's the fixated seven. And the seven that becomes that acquires the virtue of the seven, which is called sobriety, which is like, there's just this enoughness of the moment that it's like, oh, I can savor the joy of this juicy good thing, right, without starting to already think about the next thing. Sevens are notorious for being on a vacation and planning the next one in their own heads, right? It's like, stop already. Like, you say you want joy, but I don't believe you because joy is here and where are you? Joy is here and where are you? So that's just an example of like so there's a degree of presence. So every type one can say that each of the personality types is one way we are occluded from pure presence. And so each type has a different way that that happens. I briefly mentioned the type one. There's something about there's always something wrong with what's here, right? And so there isn't like a gratitude for the isness and an acceptance of the isness, of being, of this moment. There's always something to correct or fix, but it's like, again, it's endless. A course in miracles, which is this wisdom path that I love, says the ego's mantra is seek but do not find. And so understanding your enneagram type is about understanding the way that your ego seeks and seeks and never finds because it's looking in the wrong direction. Whether it's looking for more fun, looking for more achievement, looking to perfect everything. Like you will not be happy, the ego says, until that's acquired. But it's set up to be an endless search, right, when instead it's like drop in, in and down into your being. Yeah. So that's the path I teach people. So again, it's not about not striving. It's not about not having joy. It's about having the capacity to experience and savor the joy that you've created, the achievement that you've made, the perfection that you've cultivated. Right? Yeah.

[23:11] Katie: It'S exactly that, right. The ego is striving, as you said, either for fun at the seven or achievement at the three or whatever it is, and never satisfied my whole never enoughness. That's a lot better. Now, it happens from time to time. Of course our personalities come back up, of course. But when I did have that, it was chronic, this just chronic feeling of gluttony, more not fitting things in. And then once you learn to be more present, it gets better somehow. You get to appreciate what you already have. I'd love it if you'd briefly said a word for each one. Because now I'm thinking people listen. I'll be like, okay, we get the seven. And they'll be like, okay, now one or three. And they'll be like, but I'm neither of these. So we're not going to cover all the personalities in depth. But it would be nice, maybe just the vice or that passion for each personality, because I think people will already see if they're a scattered seven with gluttony and want to do everything, or an achievement three or perfectionism one. But it would be nice to briefly do all of them. So maybe if you could just a couple of sentences for each one, I think people listening, otherwise I'll be like, no, I want to know mine.

[24:20] Nhien: Right? So I guess I'll go back to one. Again, that notion of there's always something to correct or fix in the moment. And I would add that ones tend to think and the burden is on me. And so the ones tend to carry the weight of the world on their shoulders. And it's like you don't even realize that you're the one who took it on. You're resentful that no one else is carrying the burden, but you volunteered. Ones don't really realize that there's like a basic assumption that of course they should. And then this is about unraveling that basic assumption. It's a flawed assumption, but ones tend to believe they're right. Like there's a notion that like, oh, this is the way things are. And so, again, it's unraveling sort of the story of your type. So for twos, there's this notion of being indispensable, being needed, right? So twos tend to overgive or like to be seen as generous in giving. Imagine a lot of twos end up in relationship, whether it's at work or at home with a lot of dependent people with not much mutuality. Like, when are people going to give back that gentle nudge to just stop that track of giving, to get that the two has that is often unconscious. The two doesn't necessarily want to get the same thing it gives, but it wants to get, like appreciation in its own way, a sense of love, right? If you need me, you won't leave me. There's so much embedded in that. But what if you knew that your needs are just intrinsically valuable, right, that maybe others want to actually support your needs? It's a total paradigm shift, right? But fulfillment creates a space where you're not always scanning for other people's needs, right? That's the preoccupied space that twos live in. We've already talked about threes. Again, that sense of it's not just about achievement. I want to say there's a nuance. It's about being perceived as successful and sort of letting go of that perception over my personal joy or value. Right? For fours, it's kind of the opposite of sevens, where for fours, there's an issue of overidentification with suffering and there's a trivialization of joy. I reject joy as not part of my psychological being. And I wonder why I'm not happy. Right? There's something but there's this idea of the broken wheel gets the grease, right? Like that forced believe. Oh yes, well, I'll get more attention because I'm broken, right? Not because I'm whole. So there's an overidentification with that. For fives, there's this issue of believing that if I know enough, then I can finally take action. So fives tend to be the researchers, the investigators, et cetera. And so we need to back off from that so that you can just take bold and what feels to you like risky action. For sixes, I'm sorry to go really quickly here because I know we're short on time, but for sixes, there's this belief that I have to guard against what could go wrong. The world's full of danger, right? And so sixes, unlike sevens, rarely ever plan for future joy. They plan against future disaster. And so the mind becomes preoccupied with planning against disaster. And again, not being able to relish the good of the moment or even of the future. There isn't a planning for best case scenarios, right? So that's what I work with sixes to do. We talked about sevens. Again, what I like to say about sevens is sevens think they're optimistic, but there's something about they're optimistic about the future, but not about the present. Like there's nothing here ever, right? The present holds nothing. It's over there, it's never here. And so the eight illusion is there's an us versus them mentality, that life is a fight. So with eight, if you get up, remember not to put on that armor. You don't even realize you're putting on armor to go into that meeting. And how is you putting on armor going to affect how you show up at that meeting. It's kind of like that energy of againstness. Right. For nines, there's this basic desire to remain peaceful via being undisturbed. And so there's this peace where, oh, if there's conflict, I simply avoid it. And by avoiding it, by not asserting myself, I may not be asserting my truth or my purpose. Right. I can't live a fulfilled life where I get to matter if my need to stay undisturbed to have peace is compulsive. Right? It's not that peace is bad. It's when it becomes compulsive that anything that's going to negate that gets written off. And so there's a fullness of life that doesn't get lived. Again, this is the most superficial just touching on each of the numbers in the interest of time. But yeah, so those are just a few of the things that I work with people depending on their type, like to support them in like, oh, there's another way, you just didn't know. Instead, you double down on your ego type. You're like, oh, I'm not happy yet. The three says, I will strive harder. Seven is like, it will be the next fun thing. The ego doubles down. It doesn't know why. Things get emptier and they get less fulfilled rather than more. And so yeah, practicing meditative practices to cultivate presence, to savor what you have, you're not going to lose your skill set. You're not going to lose that basic ability to be joyful or plan or scheme, if you will. But like as a severe right, that's always in you. But what you'll gain is like a fullness of me, right? Yeah.

[30:13] Katie: And thank you so much for covering the different types also because I feel the people listening will at least be able to identify maybe one more than the others. And that might invite them on the journey if they're not already familiar with the Enneagram. And of course, it's a lot more complex than this, but I also love how you shared that we fall down the trap of the egoic trap, which is we think that the next achievement or giving more or being perfect or perfect or all these things will bring us finally that fulfillment. And it's such a trap. And I feel that if we don't know the Enneagram, I mean, there's other ways to discover these things through spiritual work and meditation and being more grounded. And there are other ways to see this. But I think Enneagram is, like you said, such a shortcut because you instantly see this is what I'm doing all the time. This is what I feel will bring me joy. It's not working now what? And that's when you go down the okay, well, let me be more grounded. Let me be more present. Let me appreciate what I have now. Stop always pulling into the future. And there's also and I think you also mentioned this now, this fear that if you.

[31:29] Nhien: Stop, right?

[31:30] Katie: Like as a seven, if you stop, you're not going to have fun anymore. Or the three if you stop striving, what about all your goals? What about you still want? But it's not true. When you are more present, you can still work on your goals, you can still have fun activities in a social life, and you'll appreciate them more as you shared at the beginning, because you're present. And I think this is a huge learning curve for a lot of people. They think, oh, if I just relax and let go and just be present, then I'm just like, go lose all my goals and not be fulfilled.

[32:01] Nhien: But this everyone thinks that at the beginning. What if I do nothing? Yes, well, I do have to say, like a basic framework. So if you Google the enneagram, you'll see that it's a circle with nine dots around it, right? But the circle for me represents our wholeness understanding that, again, people are like, oh, when we identify your point on the enneagram, we're not saying this is all that you are. In fact, we're saying this is just the beginning. What you get to do by knowing your point now is open up to the whole circle, the fullness of you. And so, again, there's still a base where you would still have home base at seven, but now you have other points available to you, other qualities of your humanity available to you, and thus you have more choice because we think every day we wake up and we have this free will and we're making all these choices. Well, I'm like, well, yeah, and your days are all looking pretty much the same. You strive and strive and strive. So that's where we're unconsciously just choosing what the ego wants, right, and thinks is going to give you fulfillment. And it doesn't, and it doesn't, and it doesn't. And then you try harder and it doesn't, whereas like, oh, now you have other qualities of humanity available. You said earlier that I have some six energy. I'm like, thank God. That's more collaborative energy. That's very different from unhealthy three competitive energy. Right. There's more space inside me, there's more space for other people as I practice this, there's space for everyone to live our highest lives. Right. There's a spaciousness that's created. And so I love the circle represents our wholeness, but I think it also represents our unity and the belonging of all people. And so teaching the Enneagram from this framework is so important to me to be like, yeah, you know what? We are fundamentally whole. And let's move toward you experiencing that, knowing it beyond just your head, but feeling that and being with that and savoring that and yeah. In that wholeness, wow, now you have access to all this potentiality in your humanity. That you didn't have access to before when you were over identified with that little point right on the enneagram that you thought was you, that you thought you had to be right. Yeah. So just wanted to share that.

[34:37] Katie: There we go. Yeah. That was such a beautiful way to conclude the podcast. And I have to say, NIN, that you're probably the person I interviewed that gave me the most goosebumps. I was like goosebumps from head to toe, head to toe. My whole body was, like, pulsating, and then I felt it on top of my head. So I don't know what you're doing, but you're doing it right. Because I'm highly sensitive to energy, which is a very different topic, but in general, to vibrations. The goosebumps, I also get them sometimes when I listen to music, and I'm pretty certain I get it a few times in interviews, but I'm pretty certain this is the interview where I've had it. The box. I was literally, like, shivers, head to foot. So beautiful. Thank you.

[35:23] Nhien: Yeah.

[35:24] Katie: Beautiful.

[35:24] Nhien: So good to chat with you and yeah. Get to know a little bit about you and talk about you.

[35:30] Katie: Talk about my type.

[35:34] Nhien: Example. Yeah. So appreciate it. Thank you.

[35:37] Katie: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was really an amazing conversation. And where can people find you if they want to get in touch and find out more?

[35:45] Nhien: Yeah. Evolvingenneagram.com. So yeah.

[35:50] Katie: Fantastic. Okay. Thank you so, so much. And yes, and hopefully you guys listening are super curious into the enneagram message me message neen. Find out more about it. It's really, really worth the journey. And if you're already into it, then hopefully you still learned something new or got Shivers like I did. Go deeper.

[36:11] Nhien: Yeah.

[36:12] Katie: Bye.

[36:13] Nhien: Bye.

[36:17] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus B show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback. So let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you. And feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focus day ahead.