[00:00] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Suddar here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness, and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.

[00:36] Katie: Super excited to have Norsheen I Chen on the show today. Norsheen is a public speaking coach and twice TEDx speaker. She has over 15 years of experience in training, speaking, and coaching, and she's currently helping leaders to speak with high impact on stage and on camera. Wonderful to have you here today, Nosheen. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you.

[01:01] Nausheen: Thanks so much, Katie, for having me. It's going to be a great conversation, I can feel it.

[01:05] Katie: Well, I love your energy and I love that you specialize in speaking. It's also an area I'm really passionate about, also with leaders. So I'm sure we'll have a lot to discuss. I'd like to begin with the number one thing that you see people struggling with when it comes to speaking. So people come to you for public speaking, whether it's on stage or on camera. What's the number one thing that you see? That's sort of a blockage for them.

[01:33] Nausheen: The number one thing that they hate is that they don't sound or feel like themselves when they're on stage or when they're on camera. They know all of the right things to say. They have the knowledge, because these are usually people that are either experts in their field, they are leaders of their companies, or they are coaches or entrepreneurs who really know what they want to talk about inside out. And when they talk offline in one on one conversations, they have mastery of that knowledge. But somehow when they're on camera or when they're on stage, that's when they start feeling like they're not themselves. And when they watch themselves back, it's a really strange, unsettling feeling and they hate it. So eventually they have this relationship that they develop with the camera or the stage, where they hate watching themselves back. They don't feel like this is the ambitious, insightful person that they feel like they portray. They don't see that back. And that is really unsettling. So it's that kind of fear and feeling dissatisfied with seeing your own, like a pale reflection of yourself. That's what people mostly come to me.

[02:52] Katie: With, and I can sort of picture that. And how do you help them to overcome this? How do you help them to shift both the way they speak on stage or on camera and the way they then see themselves? Right. Because there's those two aspects.

[03:08] Nausheen: So we start with figuring out what are their current strengths, what are their current opportunity areas, and their current fears and inhibitions. Once we understand what it is that's making them either freeze up, go blank, or just not be as articulate as they can be, not be as impactful or energetic as they can be. Once we figure out what it is that's causing that, then we come up with strategies to counter it and address it. So a lot of the work that I do is on two levels. The first level is the simple one where we go over the basics of being a good speaker. So we talk about good body language, good posture, articulating yourself, pauses, getting rid of filler words, figuring out how to modulate your voice, having high energy. All those things are boxes that you can and should tick because those are the foundations of being a good speaker. But then, on the other hand, I also work on a deeper level, which is way more personal to every single person that I coach. And that is what it is that's actually holding them back. Some of them have an impostor syndrome. Some people feel that they just don't understand how to feel the words. I've had that from a client where she said that I know what I'm saying. I've rehearsed them, these words. But as soon as I start speaking, I cannot feel my words anymore. I say them and it would come across because she would be able to Ratle off the speech, but it would be in this weird news announcer type voice. And she said that, I know I'm doing it. I don't know why I can't control it, and I cannot feel my words. So at this level is really where a lot of the magic happens, where we figure out what it is that's holding them back from being that impactful persona on camera. And then there's a third step that happens after these two things happen, which is we really work on crafting curating and refining the on camera and on stage personas. So really coming up with what are the things that this person wants to be known for that are already a part of their personality? But how do we amplify it? How do we put it on steroids for the stage and for the camera so that the audience can make an impact so that they can make an impact on the audience and they can relate to the audience?

[05:40] Katie: Yeah, those steps are fascinating. I'm really curious about this last step that you just said. So I'd love to hear maybe an example that you could share around how you put it on steroids, so to speak, and help them to really craft their message in a meaningful way.

[05:57] Nausheen: It's about the message as well as the delivery. Crafting the message, I would say in a lot of cases, is the easier part. We have more time when we are crafting the message. You can go back and forth, you can revise the tone and the language and the vocabulary, but the actual delivery part is where most of the work goes it's what's more challenging, and that is where your persona comes in. So let's say that a person has regular energy when they're just talking to someone one on one, even on a Zoom meeting. You don't need to be this slightly larger than life version of yourself, because you're just relating to one person. But the moment you translate that one to one to one, to many, you want to be reaching a whole bunch of people. But at the same time, you want to be in a zone where you make them feel like you're having a one to one conversation with all of them at the same time. You're the one who is setting the energy and the vibe for all of them. If you come with the right energy, the right articulation, the right vibe, then they're going to feel it. So it's really about first figuring out what are the different parts of your personality that can be very relatable for people. It could be something really simple. Like, I want to be known as the funny person. So I will come up with funny stories that I will sprinkle throughout what I'm saying, and I will deliver them. I will practice my delivery so that I'm there for the audience. When they're laughing, I perform it a little bit, and I wait, and I hear their laughter, and then I continue. So making the audience feel like I'm there, they're a part of the conversation with me. So figuring out what are the different parts of your personality that you can really amplify and then intentionally using them a little bit more. For me, a lot of the times it's by energy. A lot of people say, oh, I really like your energy. And I tell them, yeah, because I make an effort. And thank you. I appreciate that you're seeing that, because I want to be known as a person who brings energy, who lights up the room or the Zoom call or the podcast. I want to be the person whose smile you remember. So I will make sure that I smile more when I'm talking because I want you to be able to relate to me. I want to be friendly. So those are characteristics of my personality that are very real, but that I'm not always thinking about when I am just talking to a friend or talking to my husband on the couch. So that's really what it is. It's really simple. It's just about being intentional and drawing out parts of yourself that you think will really relate to the audience.

[09:00] Katie: Essentially, you're taking aspects of the personality that someone has. Like, in your case, energy, smiley, friendly. And like you said, you're sort of amplifying them a bit to make them stand out. I've never thought of it that way. I think in my case, it's similar to you. People say I have good energy and I'm smiley. And it's true that when I'm speaking on stage, maybe I think about it a bit because I do want to be friendly and enthusiastic and motivated. Right. So I guess it makes sense. I like what you said also about the humor of being funny, because it's something I really struggle to do on stage. I'm smiley, I'm nice, I might say something slightly amusing, but it's very rare for me to get really the whole crowd laughing. And I think I don't know how people do it because people have different humors. And so saying a joke that's funny for one person might not be funny for someone else. And it's also still a professional context, so it still needs to be taken into account. And I often think, like, how do you make an audience laugh? This is actually one of my challenges this year. I've decided that I want to make the audience a bit more ease, especially if you can start off with a joke, make it a bit more light hearted. And because I'm already smiley and enthusiastic and energetic, I think it would be nice to just have the OD joke. I'm not saying it has to be a stand up comedy, but every like 15 minutes, ten minutes, just something a bit light, something a bit funny. And last week I was telling you offair, we went to a seminar and we talked with James Nestor, and he's an excellent speaker and he's the author of Breath for people listening who don't know who James Nestor is. And I noticed that during his presentation, there was humor. Like, we really laughed. And I thought, how's he doing this? Let me take notes because I want to be able to put this in. So I guess what I'm saying is, what would you advise to people that maybe want to get the audience to laugh a few times but don't really know how to go about it? What would be a good place to start?

[11:06] Nausheen: First, you have to understand your own style of humor because it has to be you. It always has to be coming from a place is this is what Katie is, this is what Nashin is. It's not borrowing someone else's jokes or showing a few memes, I'm not really much into that. So figuring out what is your own style of humor and then a number of things that you can do in the prep stage that really help when you go on stage. So one, keeping a story journal. This is something a lot of great storytelling coaches do, where you have something interesting happen, even if it's not that interesting in the moment, just write it down, document pretty much every day of your life. And then when you look back at it, you just try to see which stories can fit in with your sense of humor. And of course, some senses of humor are better left in one on one conversations. Like extreme sarcasm generally doesn't tend to translate too well to a wider audience, or the same can be said for Perverted. Sense of humor can be great with old friends, but to a wider audience, maybe not. So you have to be a little bit choiceful. And for me, I prefer figuring out things that might have a subtle chuckle impact versus ha like a belly laugh because I find that easier and more real to do and that also translates to the rest of the presentation. So if you're getting people to chuckle once in a while, the whole mood kind of stays light and there's less pressure on you to deliver those big laughs. It's something I learned in Improv because I was literally going on stage and a lot of my teammates at the time, their aim would be to get those big belly laughs and my aim would be to get the chuckles. And I liked the chuckles. I liked people just going like and that for me, it's like they're thinking, they're thinking about it in their heads. Maybe they'll laugh again about it, maybe they'll chuckle again about it. Maybe they're just smiling because that's just the way that my humor works. So really figuring out what it is that you're finding funny and then finding real world stories to back it up, those two things make a really good combination.

[13:43] Katie: Thanks for the advice. I'm going to take this into account. And I was thinking yesterday was talking with a friend of mine on the phone and I really made her laugh talking about this anecdote. So I thought it's like that but more purposeful, not just talking about random things and mentioning it. More purposeful and linked to the messaging and yes, with that sort of intention. And I also like what you said about the chuckles. I definitely think I'm more your way inclined, more chuckle oriented than big laugh. Also it's a huge pressure if you think, okay, I'm going to tell this story and everyone needs to roar with laughter and it's deadpad silence. No, I think at least if you're aiming for chuckle and people vaguely smile and nod, I think that's probably more encouraging. Okay, I'd like to move on to another topic that I think is really fascinating with what you do, which is helping people to speak on stage and helping people to speak on camera. Because I was talking with one of my clients the other day, and it's true that this person was struggling a bit with speaking. And I thought there is a huge difference. Because as I began speaking, as I began explaining about how to speak on stage, then she mentioned, yes, but it's actually online. And I was saying how it helps if you connect with the audience if you think about how they feel versus how you feel, and you're really trying to get your message across. But it's true that on camera sometimes if you're doing one of these sort of workshops where you just see your slides and you don't see anybody. It really is just talking blankly to the camera. So I'm wondering what sort of differences do you see between on stage and on camera and how you help people to sort of manage that.

[15:27] Nausheen: The absence of the audience is definitely a big one and it's very unsettling. First of all, I do not understand these apps and platforms that don't show the audience. I first did a webinar like that maybe four or five years ago and I thought, okay, it's just the tech. We're very limited, but they still exist. And it blows my mind. I don't understand if zoom can show just little windows of people looking at you, which is still something I don't understand why these other platforms can't. So that's just something that boggles the mind. But yeah, for sure, the lack of an audience, it really unsettles people both in terms of live events and webinars and trainings, but also when you're creating content and it's just you and a camera, you and a phone, and you're trying to talk to the phone as if you're talking to a person and it doesn't happen. It's very difficult. So that's really the first thing, that the first challenge that you have to overcome. And that's exactly what you have to do. Get into the zone of having a conversation with a person and figure out what it is that's going to get you in that zone. Some people use googly eyes and they put them on top of their webcam so that they have eyes looking at them and they can look into those eyes. Some people use postit notes saying, look here. Some people just imagine having a conversation with a friend. Some people use stuffed animals right behind the camera. I've seen that. So whatever works for you to get you into the zone of having a one on one conversation. That really helps. And of course, if you're doing a live event, even if you can't see the people, I'm assuming in most cases you can stop and ask for engagement, whether it's through voice or through chat. So do that and do more of that for yourself mainly, but also, of course, for them. But it really helps you remember and understand that a people are there, they're paying attention and they want to engage and they're understanding what you're saying. So build in a lot more engagement and build an easy engagement. Just tell me which city you're joining us from. That's one of the easy ones. And in the middle, just give me a yes or a no for this question. So let it make it really easy for a lot of people to respond to you so that you can quickly see and then you can even comment on it and it gives you a second or two to breathe and to pause. But that is definitely the biggest difference. And I have seen it both ways, so I've seen people that are super comfortable on stage, but they really dislike being on camera. And I've seen it the other way around where there are people that have made a lot of content. Usually these are younger people who are really comfortable on camera, they love creating this content, but you put them on a stage and they don't feel as comfortable, they're not in their zone. And then for them is the opposite problem. They have people staring at them and they feel unsettled by that. So then it's about putting yourself in the zone of creating a connection with each member of the audience and looking at them as individuals versus this big crowd that is faceless and is just intimidating you. So that's the key difference.

[18:58] Katie: Interesting. And I can sort of see that, I can imagine people who are used to maybe doing lots of mini videos for their TikTok or Instagram or what have you, and then suddenly they're speaking to an audience and it's really intimidating. Or people who enjoy that rapport, that connection when they're speaking to an audience and suddenly they're just staring at the screen. So I can see why some people would be more comfortable with one or with the other. One thing that I'm sure probably most people come to you or at least ask you about is how to manage the nerves. Because generally, especially if someone lacks experience or it's fairly new for them, or if it's just something that puts them really ill at ease. I know a lot of people struggle with anxiety before speaking on stage, whether it's on stage or in front of a camera, how do you help them to sort of tune down that anxiety?

[19:50] Nausheen: It always has to be a three step process. So what do you do before the event or going live? What do you do during and what do you do after? And a lot of people forget about the after. So before create a really good, what I like calling a pregame routine for yourself, where you come up with a series of steps that put you in the zone, that get you comfortable, that get you just energized and calm at the same time. It will entail spending some time by yourself. So for me, a few minutes before the event or before going on camera, I stop doing other work, I stop answering emails, I stop checking socials and I'm just by myself, I grab something to drink, I start thinking about what I might say, I start thinking of the stories I might bring up. I just sometimes sit by myself and just think for a few minutes. I use the time to put on makeup. So creating that series of steps that leads you into the event or leads you into the live will always help you. And that's your go to. In terms of what to do during, of course it's many different things that you've probably heard being able to breathe, take pauses, remember that you've rehearsed it. Hopefully you have rehearsed it. Hopefully you have done your preparation. And always remembering two key things about the audience. One, that they're on your side. People always forget this. Somehow they feel that the audience is judging them, when actually the audience is rooting for them to win. Because if you win, the audience wins. The audience has now spent however much time they've spent listening to you, they have had a productive time. So why would they not want you to win? And the second thing is, if you forget something, only you know that you've messed up and you can keep going. Most people will not know the difference. Even if you skip a slide, even if you do a slide again, it's okay. Making mistakes is okay. I had to make my piece with this because the second time I went on the stage on TEDx, I accidentally had some makeup on my pants. And later I was just looking at my pictures and I wanted to go hide somewhere, thinking that, oh my God, why did this happen to me? And I realized most people did not notice it. It was just me. I was the one agonizing over it. So it's not as bad as you think. And then after is a really important piece because it will feed into the next before. So after every event, it's really important to a get a recording if you can, super, super useful. B to try to document your feelings, your thoughts and your inspirations. Very often you'll come off after an event, you'll be buzzing with thoughts and inspirations. Capture them and use that to tell yourself for next time that I did that, that was cool. I was scared before doing that, but I did it, so why can't I do the next thing and the next thing? So taking that bit of time to really give yourself that piece of positive self reassurance is really important. And then it builds this whole virtuous circle going into the next time.

[23:29] Katie: I love this idea of the three key steps. I generally put a lot of emphasis on before and during generally is for me very easy, and after I never really think about. So I put all the emphasis on the before. And I know that when I did, for instance, host a TEDx, I didn't do a TEDx speech, but I was the MC. I know that. What helped me a lot was I did squats. This sounds funny, but I think you have the amount of cortisol that rushes in and I was like meditating a bit and that helped a bit, but I just felt all this sort of energy pulsing. And so I just did loads of squats. And afterwards I felt super calm. And so now I was telling one of my clients who had a bit of fear and anxiety before talking on stage and on camera, said, release physical release, whether it's a walk or squats or push ups, whatever you can do without getting too sweaty, obviously. But that really helped, I feel. There's that amount of energy. And then it's also easier if you're going to do a bit of meditating or breathing. It's easier once you have that physical release. Then your body's like, okay, you've got a bit of a boost of endorphins. You can sit and then suddenly you can breathe more calmly. Anyway, that helped me.

[24:46] Nausheen: Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. I normally don't, but I definitely put that in as recommendations for clients. Physical warm ups, voice warm ups. And I also added expression warm ups where you do things like take a statement and say it in different voices with different tones to get your expressions free flowing.

[25:10] Katie: That's interesting. I've never heard of that before. I've heard of exercises for the mouth and tongue and stuff, which I haven't done, but that's also useful. But expression, that's interesting. Singing also help. I love singing. I sing quite a bit and it's also release, right?

[25:27] Nausheen: Yeah. Nice.

[25:29] Katie: Amazing. So we've covered so many different things and we're approaching the end of today's episode. What would be sort of your last tip for people who maybe are listening to all of this and want to speak more on stage, want to speak more camera and they're feeling a bit blocked, aside from working with you, which obviously we both highly recommend. But aside from this, what could be an action step that they could take to move forward.

[25:56] Nausheen: Understand your why. I think if you can figure out why you want to do more speaking, it's going to create this natural motivation for you to start. And it really is about making that start, because once you start and you're terrible, you might be terrible. Once you start and you're terrible, that should give you more motivation to figure out why you're terrible. A lot of times people wash themselves back, the ones that have the courage to do that, and they don't know why. They can tell you that I just hate it, but they can't tell you why they hate watching themselves what it is about their performance that they just can't stand. So the more you speak, the more bad videos you create. That's when you'll really start getting a feel for what it is that you're comfortable doing and what it is that you need to improve on. And making videos, I would say, is really a great entry point. It's low risk. Everyone has a high performance camera in their pocket, and you really have no excuse if you have your why, if you have your motivation, just start creating video content and create it for yourself first. Don't give yourself the pressure to post it on socials right away. Create the first few videos just with the intent of not showing them to anyone else. Just so that you get your body language and eye contact and posture and expressions and articulation, right? And if you don't know how to get that right, then you know what it is that you need help.

[27:42] Katie: Absolutely fantastic tip. Love the part about the why and the practice. Everything gets better with practice. Thank you so much, Noreen, for being on the show today. Loved our conversation. It's a fantastic topic and I love your energy. Like everyone tells you, where can people find you? What's the best way to get in touch with you?

[28:02] Nausheen: Thank you so much, first of all, for having me on the show. It's been a great conversation and thank you for asking all these amazing questions. Every time I talk to you about something else, like writing down, like, oh, this could be a video, oh, this can be a post. So thank you for making me think about things in this way. And, yeah, LinkedIn is a great place to find me. I'm Nasheen. I Chen on LinkedIn and I also have a free newsletter that is@speakasaleader.com which, if people subscribe to, you can also get a free guide that I just made last week that I'm really excited about. It's called never fear the camera again. And you can get that for free if you subscribe to the newsletter.

[28:45] Katie: Amazing. Thank you so much, Nasheed. Thank you.

[28:50] Nausheen: Thanks so much. Katie.

[28:55] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Be show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback. So let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead.