{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":0.78,"endTime":3.75,"body":"The unique contributions"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":0.78,"endTime":3.75,"body":"podcast is brought to you by"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":3.75,"endTime":7.59,"body":"RELX. Find out more about us by"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":3.75,"endTime":7.59,"body":"visiting RELX.com."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":10.86,"endTime":13.77,"body":"How do you stop"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":10.86,"endTime":13.77,"body":"programmes where they're losing"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":13.77,"endTime":19.56,"body":"25 to 30% of every dollar to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":13.77,"endTime":19.56,"body":"criminal groups, and I still"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":19.56,"endTime":23.79,"body":"don't believe the policymakers"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":19.56,"endTime":23.79,"body":"in Washington DC understand the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":23.79,"endTime":24.54,"body":"scope of it."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":41.37,"endTime":43.71,"body":"Hello, and welcome to"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":41.37,"endTime":43.71,"body":"series three of Unique"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":43.71,"endTime":47.1,"body":"Contributions, a RELX podcast"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":43.71,"endTime":47.1,"body":"where we bring you closer to"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":47.1,"endTime":49.65,"body":"some of the most interesting"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":47.1,"endTime":49.65,"body":"people from around our business."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":50.4,"endTime":54.21,"body":"I'm YS Chi and I'll be exploring"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":50.4,"endTime":54.21,"body":"some of the biggest issues that"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":54.21,"endTime":58.74,"body":"matter to society, how they're"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":54.21,"endTime":58.74,"body":"making a difference, and what"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":58.74,"endTime":63.09,"body":"brought them to where they are"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":58.74,"endTime":63.09,"body":"today. In this episode, I want"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":63.09,"endTime":66.57,"body":"to explore the astonishing story"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":63.09,"endTime":66.57,"body":"of what is possibly the biggest"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":66.57,"endTime":70.14,"body":"heist in American history. US"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":66.57,"endTime":70.14,"body":"government has published"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":70.14,"endTime":75.3,"body":"preliminary data showing $277"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":70.14,"endTime":75.3,"body":"billion lost to fraud in 2021"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":75.33,"endTime":78.27,"body":"alone through the pandemic"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":75.33,"endTime":78.27,"body":"unemployment assistance scheme."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":78.72,"endTime":84.51,"body":"This is a fraud rate of 18.7%."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":78.72,"endTime":84.51,"body":"And to put this in context, 3%"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":84.66,"endTime":89.07,"body":"is considered best practice. The"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":84.66,"endTime":89.07,"body":"number could be even larger as"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":89.07,"endTime":93.21,"body":"it is still collecting the data,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":89.07,"endTime":93.21,"body":"some schemes lost up to 50% of"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":93.21,"endTime":96.99,"body":"the money paid out. Now the"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":93.21,"endTime":96.99,"body":"people who suffered the most"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":96.99,"endTime":100.08,"body":"were those whose identities were"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":96.99,"endTime":100.08,"body":"stolen, for example, those who"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":100.08,"endTime":103.29,"body":"were made unemployed during"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":100.08,"endTime":103.29,"body":"Covid and couldn't claim"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":103.68,"endTime":108.09,"body":"benefits. This fraud and waste"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":103.68,"endTime":108.09,"body":"could have been prevented. So"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":108.09,"endTime":112.5,"body":"what happened? Why, and can"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":108.09,"endTime":112.5,"body":"something be done about it? My"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":112.5,"endTime":115.92,"body":"guest today is Woody Talcove,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":112.5,"endTime":115.92,"body":"Chief Executive of LexisNexis,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":115.95,"endTime":120.18,"body":"Risk Solutions, Government"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":115.95,"endTime":120.18,"body":"Businesses. Woody is an expert"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":120.36,"endTime":123.87,"body":"on how to tackle this kind of"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":120.36,"endTime":123.87,"body":"fraud. Woody, welcome. And thank"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":123.87,"endTime":124.2,"body":"you."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":124.83,"endTime":127.59,"body":"YS, thanks so"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":124.83,"endTime":127.59,"body":"much for the opportunity to talk"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":127.59,"endTime":129.45,"body":"about this really exciting"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":127.59,"endTime":129.45,"body":"topic."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":130.5,"endTime":132.33,"body":"Well, I know you're"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":130.5,"endTime":132.33,"body":"passionate about this, and"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":132.33,"endTime":136.17,"body":"you've been evangelising for"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":132.33,"endTime":136.17,"body":"some time. So I'm so glad that"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":136.17,"endTime":138.96,"body":"we can ask you some questions."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":136.17,"endTime":138.96,"body":"Now the numbers we're talking"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":138.96,"endTime":144.66,"body":"about are huge, $277 billion"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":138.96,"endTime":144.66,"body":"dollar loss to fraud in 2021"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":144.69,"endTime":148.62,"body":"alone! What is your view on"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":144.69,"endTime":148.62,"body":"this? How bad is this Woody?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":148.0,"endTime":153.01,"body":"Well, that's just"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":148.0,"endTime":153.01,"body":"the money that was lost in the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":153.01,"endTime":156.13,"body":"unemployment insurance"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":153.01,"endTime":156.13,"body":"programme, that didn't include"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":156.13,"endTime":161.02,"body":"PPP, and that didn't include"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":156.13,"endTime":161.02,"body":"other programmes, including the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":161.05,"endTime":168.49,"body":"SNAP programme for food stamps."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":161.05,"endTime":168.49,"body":"It is just staggering, the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":168.52,"endTime":172.78,"body":"amount of money that went to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":168.52,"endTime":172.78,"body":"criminal organisations located"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":172.78,"endTime":178.51,"body":"here in the US, as well as"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":172.78,"endTime":178.51,"body":"located overseas. The part that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":178.51,"endTime":183.37,"body":"really needs to be explored"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":178.51,"endTime":183.37,"body":"further, is this was a known"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":183.4,"endTime":189.01,"body":"issue back in 2012/2013. And"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":183.4,"endTime":189.01,"body":"almost nothing was done to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":189.01,"endTime":189.7,"body":"resolve it."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":190.0,"endTime":193.39,"body":"Was there just a lack of"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":190.0,"endTime":193.39,"body":"will? Was there a lack of"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":193.39,"endTime":195.52,"body":"technology or what?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":196.27,"endTime":198.58,"body":"It was a lack of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":196.27,"endTime":198.58,"body":"understanding. So what was"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":198.58,"endTime":201.55,"body":"happening, I've been here 14"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":198.58,"endTime":201.55,"body":"years. And what was happening"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":201.58,"endTime":206.56,"body":"was government went from paying"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":201.58,"endTime":206.56,"body":"benefits in line to paying"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":206.56,"endTime":211.51,"body":"benefits online, right, much"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":206.56,"endTime":211.51,"body":"like the likes of Amazon and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":211.51,"endTime":215.47,"body":"other e-retailers. Government"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":211.51,"endTime":215.47,"body":"was beginning to use these"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":215.47,"endTime":219.28,"body":"tools, but they weren't building"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":215.47,"endTime":219.28,"body":"the infrastructure. And as a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":219.28,"endTime":223.72,"body":"result, one of the things that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":219.28,"endTime":223.72,"body":"we did is we started a web page"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":223.72,"endTime":228.46,"body":"called fraudoftheday.com."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":223.72,"endTime":228.46,"body":"Fraudoftheday.com has over"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":228.46,"endTime":234.13,"body":"15,000 government subscribers,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":228.46,"endTime":234.13,"body":"and every single day, we educate"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":234.13,"endTime":237.67,"body":"the market on different frauds"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":234.13,"endTime":237.67,"body":"that are taking place. And then"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":237.67,"endTime":244.57,"body":"in 2015, YS, the team wrote a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":237.67,"endTime":244.57,"body":"book called WTF: Where's The"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":244.57,"endTime":249.58,"body":"Fraud?, focused exclusively on"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":244.57,"endTime":249.58,"body":"government fraudulent activity,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":249.61,"endTime":255.43,"body":"and in there, we predicted a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":249.61,"endTime":255.43,"body":"national crisis was going to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":255.43,"endTime":260.02,"body":"create the largest fraud in the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":255.43,"endTime":260.02,"body":"history of our country, driven"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":260.02,"endTime":262.78,"body":"by transnational criminal"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":260.02,"endTime":262.78,"body":"groups. Now, we're not"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":262.78,"endTime":265.42,"body":"Nostradamus, but we got that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":262.78,"endTime":265.42,"body":"one, right."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":266.13,"endTime":269.73,"body":"Yeah, getting it right,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":266.13,"endTime":269.73,"body":"though, doesn't mean that our"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":269.73,"endTime":272.22,"body":"leaders would actually take"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":269.73,"endTime":272.22,"body":"action, right, because they need"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":272.22,"endTime":275.7,"body":"to see evidence before they move"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":272.22,"endTime":275.7,"body":"on anything. How long did it"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":275.7,"endTime":279.78,"body":"take before people woke up and"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":275.7,"endTime":279.78,"body":"realised that this was such a"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":279.78,"endTime":282.72,"body":"problem, let alone actually"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":279.78,"endTime":282.72,"body":"addressing them."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":283.62,"endTime":287.16,"body":"I still to this"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":283.62,"endTime":287.16,"body":"day, before we did this podcast,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":287.16,"endTime":291.99,"body":"I went on the dark web, and I"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":287.16,"endTime":291.99,"body":"saw transnational criminal"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":291.99,"endTime":295.68,"body":"groups, organised criminal"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":291.99,"endTime":295.68,"body":"groups, using different"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":295.68,"endTime":299.07,"body":"techniques to steal money from"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":295.68,"endTime":299.07,"body":"unemployment insurance, from"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":299.07,"endTime":302.73,"body":"Medicaid from Disability"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":299.07,"endTime":302.73,"body":"Insurance from the Food Stamp"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":302.73,"endTime":306.6,"body":"programme, it's still not"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":302.73,"endTime":306.6,"body":"solved. And what happens is you"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":306.6,"endTime":311.31,"body":"get into this debate about, we"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":306.6,"endTime":311.31,"body":"want to make it really, really"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":311.31,"endTime":313.98,"body":"easy for people to get their"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":311.31,"endTime":313.98,"body":"benefits. I mean, of course, if"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":313.98,"endTime":318.27,"body":"you're hungry, if you lost your"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":313.98,"endTime":318.27,"body":"job, if you need your benefits"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":318.27,"endTime":320.7,"body":"to pay your rent, you want to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":318.27,"endTime":320.7,"body":"get it quickly. On the other"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":320.7,"endTime":324.69,"body":"hand, there needs to be another"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":320.7,"endTime":324.69,"body":"debate about how do you stop"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":324.99,"endTime":330.9,"body":"programmes where they're losing"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":324.99,"endTime":330.9,"body":"25 to 30% of every dollar to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":330.9,"endTime":335.13,"body":"criminal groups. And I still"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":330.9,"endTime":335.13,"body":"don't believe the policymakers"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":335.13,"endTime":339.36,"body":"in Washington DC, understand the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":335.13,"endTime":339.36,"body":"scope of it. Here's a fact for"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":339.36,"endTime":344.22,"body":"you. In the state UI programmes,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":339.36,"endTime":344.22,"body":"they owe the federal government,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":344.31,"endTime":347.52,"body":"the federal government Trust"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":344.31,"endTime":347.52,"body":"Fund for unemployment insurance,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":347.88,"endTime":352.65,"body":"they owe it $115 billion from"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":347.88,"endTime":352.65,"body":"the pandemic, and they have no"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":352.65,"endTime":356.43,"body":"way of repaying it. Either"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":352.65,"endTime":356.43,"body":"they're going to raise taxes on"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":356.43,"endTime":359.52,"body":"employers, or they're going to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":356.43,"endTime":359.52,"body":"have to ask for forgiveness,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":359.52,"endTime":362.73,"body":"they can't afford to pay back"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":359.52,"endTime":362.73,"body":"the money they borrowed during"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":362.73,"endTime":363.54,"body":"the pandemic."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":364.29,"endTime":368.13,"body":"And is there an amount"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":364.29,"endTime":368.13,"body":"of trade off that we have to"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":368.13,"endTime":371.58,"body":"absorb? You're simply saying"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":368.13,"endTime":371.58,"body":"that it's just too high? Right?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":372.2,"endTime":376.7,"body":"Exactly. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":372.2,"endTime":376.7,"body":"it's not sustainable. 25 to 30%,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":376.7,"endTime":379.52,"body":"fraud rate, 25 to 30 cents on"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":376.7,"endTime":379.52,"body":"every dollar, you're never gonna"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":379.52,"endTime":384.38,"body":"get to zero. But you certainly"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":379.52,"endTime":384.38,"body":"can get to 3%. And what we keep"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":384.38,"endTime":388.1,"body":"on articulating to our"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":384.38,"endTime":388.1,"body":"customers, to members of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":388.1,"endTime":392.69,"body":"Congress, to elected officials"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":388.1,"endTime":392.69,"body":"in the states is that using the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":392.69,"endTime":397.88,"body":"tools that the private sector"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":392.69,"endTime":397.88,"body":"uses, including device"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":397.88,"endTime":404.12,"body":"assessment, email analytics, and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":397.88,"endTime":404.12,"body":"other techniques that involve"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":404.12,"endTime":408.41,"body":"information in data, we'll get"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":404.12,"endTime":408.41,"body":"that fraud rate down to 3%,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":408.71,"endTime":410.75,"body":"which is completely manageable."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":411.08,"endTime":416.15,"body":"And who would be the"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":411.08,"endTime":416.15,"body":"most against application of such"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":416.33,"endTime":421.01,"body":"tools and technology? And what"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":416.33,"endTime":421.01,"body":"would be their fear, because we"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":421.01,"endTime":424.43,"body":"need to make sure that that fear"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":421.01,"endTime":424.43,"body":"is addressed."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":424.65,"endTime":428.16,"body":"The fear is that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":424.65,"endTime":428.16,"body":"legitimate people won't get"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":428.19,"endTime":429.84,"body":"access to benefits."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":430.02,"endTime":433.11,"body":"And that's a, that's a"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":430.02,"endTime":433.11,"body":"major issue. We all care about"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":433.11,"endTime":433.5,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":433.72,"endTime":437.47,"body":"We want to make"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":433.72,"endTime":437.47,"body":"sure that legitimate people get"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":437.47,"endTime":440.68,"body":"their benefits quickly and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":437.47,"endTime":440.68,"body":"easily. Now, it's interesting,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":440.68,"endTime":445.48,"body":"YS, the Identity Theft Resource"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":440.68,"endTime":445.48,"body":"Centre, which is a leader in"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":445.48,"endTime":449.44,"body":"identity theft in government,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":445.48,"endTime":449.44,"body":"did a survey over the pandemic"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":449.44,"endTime":452.44,"body":"for people that received"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":449.44,"endTime":452.44,"body":"unemployment insurance benefits."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":453.7,"endTime":459.4,"body":"42% of eligible recipients"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":453.7,"endTime":459.4,"body":"weren't able to get their"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":459.4,"endTime":465.1,"body":"benefits during the pandemic."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":459.4,"endTime":465.1,"body":"And why? Because the systems"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":465.1,"endTime":469.72,"body":"that some states put in place"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":465.1,"endTime":469.72,"body":"didn't work, because the call"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":469.72,"endTime":475.15,"body":"centres were overwhelmed. And"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":469.72,"endTime":475.15,"body":"because people who weren't used"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":475.15,"endTime":479.11,"body":"to technology, were asked to do"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":475.15,"endTime":479.11,"body":"things on the internet that they"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":479.11,"endTime":483.25,"body":"weren't capable of. Now, keep in"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":479.11,"endTime":483.25,"body":"mind, the criminal groups got"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":483.25,"endTime":485.59,"body":"through easily and at scale."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":486.1,"endTime":489.64,"body":"Right? Because they are"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":486.1,"endTime":489.64,"body":"technologically savvy."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":490.32,"endTime":493.29,"body":"The criminal"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":490.32,"endTime":493.29,"body":"groups that are doing this"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":493.5,"endTime":497.94,"body":"likely have more processing"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":493.5,"endTime":497.94,"body":"power than most states."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":498.42,"endTime":502.47,"body":"So tell us how does the"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":498.42,"endTime":502.47,"body":"fraud actually work? Why are"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":502.47,"endTime":507.9,"body":"fraudsters able to have such a"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":502.47,"endTime":507.9,"body":"field day? And who got impacted"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":507.9,"endTime":508.5,"body":"the most?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":508.0,"endTime":509.17,"body":"Well, you know,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":508.0,"endTime":509.17,"body":"and that's a great point,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":509.17,"endTime":511.54,"body":"because very few people talk"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":509.17,"endTime":511.54,"body":"about who got impacted the most."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":511.54,"endTime":515.05,"body":"And I want to start there, the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":511.54,"endTime":515.05,"body":"individuals that really needed"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":515.26,"endTime":523.54,"body":"benefits. The individuals who"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":515.26,"endTime":523.54,"body":"lost their job that maybe worked"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":523.54,"endTime":527.44,"body":"in the hospitality, or worked in"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":523.54,"endTime":527.44,"body":"retail establishments that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":527.44,"endTime":530.8,"body":"weren't able to be open during"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":527.44,"endTime":530.8,"body":"their pandemic. They were the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":530.8,"endTime":534.25,"body":"ones that got hurt the most."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":530.8,"endTime":534.25,"body":"They couldn't get through, they"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":534.25,"endTime":539.77,"body":"couldn't get their benefits. So"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":534.25,"endTime":539.77,"body":"the fraud is really easy to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":539.77,"endTime":544.51,"body":"perpetrate. There's been so much"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":539.77,"endTime":544.51,"body":"stolen information because of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":544.51,"endTime":547.87,"body":"data breaches over the past"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":544.51,"endTime":547.87,"body":"decade. Of course, the most"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":547.9,"endTime":552.28,"body":"nefarious was the OPM data"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":547.9,"endTime":552.28,"body":"breach, but e-retailers, credit"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":552.28,"endTime":557.8,"body":"bureaus, banks, virtually every"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":552.28,"endTime":557.8,"body":"industry has been hit. And I"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":557.8,"endTime":561.4,"body":"don't think there's an identity"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":557.8,"endTime":561.4,"body":"that hasn't been stolen. The"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":561.4,"endTime":565.3,"body":"only question is, has the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":561.4,"endTime":565.3,"body":"identity been used? So you go"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":565.3,"endTime":569.08,"body":"onto the dark web, you get the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":565.3,"endTime":569.08,"body":"stolen information, your name,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":569.08,"endTime":573.49,"body":"your address, your social"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":569.08,"endTime":573.49,"body":"security number, and you go on"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":573.49,"endTime":577.18,"body":"to the State portal and you"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":573.49,"endTime":577.18,"body":"enter the information in and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":577.18,"endTime":583.39,"body":"bang, the next thing you know,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":577.18,"endTime":583.39,"body":"you have a $26,000 debit card"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":583.87,"endTime":588.04,"body":"sent to your address or"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":583.87,"endTime":588.04,"body":"deposited into your bank"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":588.04,"endTime":592.51,"body":"account. It was that easy. Now"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":588.04,"endTime":592.51,"body":"then some of the states shifted,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":592.51,"endTime":595.81,"body":"they said, we need to start"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":592.51,"endTime":595.81,"body":"using facial recognition. So"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":595.81,"endTime":600.4,"body":"we're going to compare your"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":595.81,"endTime":600.4,"body":"picture through a video to a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":600.4,"endTime":605.26,"body":"picture on a licence, that was a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":600.4,"endTime":605.26,"body":"horrible idea. There are some"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":605.26,"endTime":608.08,"body":"people that don't have driver's"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":605.26,"endTime":608.08,"body":"licences, there's some people"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":608.08,"endTime":612.76,"body":"whose licences have expired, and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":608.08,"endTime":612.76,"body":"there's some people whose facial"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":612.76,"endTime":616.15,"body":"expressions have changed, right?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":612.76,"endTime":616.15,"body":"Maybe the licence is nine years"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":616.15,"endTime":619.15,"body":"old, maybe, you know, they lost"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":616.15,"endTime":619.15,"body":"a lot of weight, maybe they"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":619.15,"endTime":622.54,"body":"gained a lot of weight, etc,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":619.15,"endTime":622.54,"body":"right. And then what happened"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":622.54,"endTime":625.57,"body":"was one of the transnational"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":622.54,"endTime":625.57,"body":"criminal groups started selling"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":625.57,"endTime":631.36,"body":"fake driver's licences on the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":625.57,"endTime":631.36,"body":"web. So that allowed me to steal"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":631.39,"endTime":638.47,"body":"Ys's PII, take a picture of the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":631.39,"endTime":638.47,"body":"criminal on the licence, and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":638.47,"endTime":642.67,"body":"bang, the next thing you knew YS"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":638.47,"endTime":642.67,"body":"was getting benefits. That's why"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":642.7,"endTime":648.04,"body":"42% of people according to the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":642.7,"endTime":648.04,"body":"Identity Theft Resource Centre"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":648.04,"endTime":652.18,"body":"survey, didn't get the benefits"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":648.04,"endTime":652.18,"body":"they were entitled to, they went"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":652.24,"endTime":653.32,"body":"to criminals."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":655.18,"endTime":659.62,"body":"Does this require"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":655.18,"endTime":659.62,"body":"starting from scratch? Or are"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":659.62,"endTime":663.79,"body":"there ways to fix this issue?"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":659.62,"endTime":663.79,"body":"Because obviously, the"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":663.79,"endTime":667.18,"body":"fraudsters are ahead of the"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":663.79,"endTime":667.18,"body":"game, right?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":668.08,"endTime":670.06,"body":"Yeah, you know,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":668.08,"endTime":670.06,"body":"keep in mind, the fraudsters are"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":670.09,"endTime":673.27,"body":"always going to evolve. But"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":670.09,"endTime":673.27,"body":"really, when you break the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":673.27,"endTime":677.08,"body":"problem down into its natural"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":673.27,"endTime":677.08,"body":"parts, there's three parts to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":677.08,"endTime":680.44,"body":"getting a benefit. The first is"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":677.08,"endTime":680.44,"body":"identity verification, the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":680.44,"endTime":684.1,"body":"second is eligibility"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":680.44,"endTime":684.1,"body":"determination. And the third is"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":684.1,"endTime":689.29,"body":"population management. I would"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":684.1,"endTime":689.29,"body":"say 95% of the fraud happened"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":689.29,"endTime":693.49,"body":"with identity verification. Most"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":689.29,"endTime":693.49,"body":"organisations public and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":693.49,"endTime":697.27,"body":"private, outsource that. And"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":693.49,"endTime":697.27,"body":"using the tools that are"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":697.27,"endTime":701.83,"body":"available today in the private"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":697.27,"endTime":701.83,"body":"sector, stops that fraud"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":701.86,"endTime":706.24,"body":"effectively. So there is no"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":701.86,"endTime":706.24,"body":"reason to start from scratch."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":706.42,"endTime":712.15,"body":"Every federal and state"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":706.42,"endTime":712.15,"body":"programme needs to use leading"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":712.18,"endTime":717.07,"body":"edge identity verification tools"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":712.18,"endTime":717.07,"body":"that allow legitimate people to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":717.07,"endTime":720.76,"body":"get their benefits, but stop"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":717.07,"endTime":720.76,"body":"these transnational and other"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":720.76,"endTime":722.95,"body":"organised criminal groups from"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":720.76,"endTime":722.95,"body":"stealing them."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":724.56,"endTime":726.81,"body":"And what is the pushback"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":724.56,"endTime":726.81,"body":"on this?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":727.41,"endTime":730.8,"body":"I think you get"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":727.41,"endTime":730.8,"body":"back into this debate, right? We"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":730.8,"endTime":735.39,"body":"don't want to put any barriers"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":730.8,"endTime":735.39,"body":"up to make it harder for people"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":735.39,"endTime":739.5,"body":"to get benefits. I think that's"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":735.39,"endTime":739.5,"body":"part of it. Second, and I'll"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":739.5,"endTime":743.73,"body":"never forget this quote, I was"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":739.5,"endTime":743.73,"body":"in a meeting with a large state"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":743.79,"endTime":748.74,"body":"unemployment insurance director."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":743.79,"endTime":748.74,"body":"And what she told me was, \"I"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":748.77,"endTime":753.87,"body":"don't care that people have been"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":748.77,"endTime":753.87,"body":"in a backlog for months, what I"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":753.87,"endTime":759.9,"body":"care about, is making sure that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":753.87,"endTime":759.9,"body":"we follow our current process\","},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":760.17,"endTime":764.43,"body":"or my other favourite quote from"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":760.17,"endTime":764.43,"body":"somebody that currently works at"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":764.43,"endTime":768.69,"body":"the US Department of Labour in a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":764.43,"endTime":768.69,"body":"Senate appointed position. \"It's"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":768.72,"endTime":774.12,"body":"only fraud, if you count it\"."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":768.72,"endTime":774.12,"body":"Right, now, I do think we're"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":774.12,"endTime":777.9,"body":"seeing a shift in the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":774.12,"endTime":777.9,"body":"environment right now. YS, so as"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":777.9,"endTime":781.56,"body":"the economy goes through what"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":777.9,"endTime":781.56,"body":"it's going through, and there"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":781.56,"endTime":784.8,"body":"isn't additional money coming"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":781.56,"endTime":784.8,"body":"out of the federal government"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":784.8,"endTime":789.48,"body":"for pandemic relief, I suspect"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":784.8,"endTime":789.48,"body":"that we're going to start paying"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":789.48,"endTime":790.62,"body":"more attention to it."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":791.26,"endTime":795.19,"body":"Hmm. Are there places"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":791.26,"endTime":795.19,"body":"that are actually doing this"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":795.19,"endTime":800.32,"body":"better than their peers and are"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":795.19,"endTime":800.32,"body":"there success stories that can"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":800.32,"endTime":800.86,"body":"be shared?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":801.4,"endTime":805.84,"body":"Yeah, I go to our"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":801.4,"endTime":805.84,"body":"home state of Ohio. Governor"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":805.84,"endTime":813.25,"body":"DeWine, in April of 2020,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":805.84,"endTime":813.25,"body":"realised he had a huge problem."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":813.76,"endTime":817.27,"body":"And it started when somebody"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":813.76,"endTime":817.27,"body":"used his identity to get"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":817.3,"endTime":821.05,"body":"unemployment insurance. Now, the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":817.3,"endTime":821.05,"body":"confusing part is he's the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":821.05,"endTime":824.77,"body":"governor of Ohio and the person"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":821.05,"endTime":824.77,"body":"used his identity in the state"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":824.77,"endTime":830.05,"body":"of California. The second tip"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":824.77,"endTime":830.05,"body":"off to him was they had more"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":830.05,"endTime":834.67,"body":"people applying for benefits for"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":830.05,"endTime":834.67,"body":"unemployment insurance than they"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":834.67,"endTime":837.16,"body":"had citizens over the age of 18."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":837.81,"endTime":839.13,"body":"That should have given"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":837.81,"endTime":839.13,"body":"it away."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":839.96,"endTime":844.34,"body":"That was it"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":839.96,"endTime":844.34,"body":"right? So, and the governor has"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":844.34,"endTime":848.51,"body":"an accounting background, he"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":844.34,"endTime":848.51,"body":"brought in some people from the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":848.51,"endTime":852.17,"body":"private sector who had deep"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":848.51,"endTime":852.17,"body":"expertise in banking and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":852.17,"endTime":857.96,"body":"insurance. And they designed a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":852.17,"endTime":857.96,"body":"system that allowed the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":857.96,"endTime":863.9,"body":"criminals to get kicked out and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":857.96,"endTime":863.9,"body":"legitimate people to get their"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":863.9,"endTime":868.37,"body":"benefits quickly. And as a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":863.9,"endTime":868.37,"body":"result, and even this number is"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":868.37,"endTime":872.57,"body":"staggering. They only lost a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":868.37,"endTime":872.57,"body":"billion dollars to the criminals"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":872.87,"endTime":873.95,"body":"Out of how much?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":874.94,"endTime":880.43,"body":"They spent, if I"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":874.94,"endTime":880.43,"body":"remember correctly, 88 billion"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":881.21,"endTime":884.33,"body":"So well below the 3%"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":881.21,"endTime":884.33,"body":"threshold that you think is"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":884.33,"endTime":885.02,"body":"doable."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":885.36,"endTime":887.82,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":885.36,"endTime":887.82,"body":"Because they had the right tool"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":887.82,"endTime":891.9,"body":"in place and it also allowed"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":887.82,"endTime":891.9,"body":"people that weren't accustomed"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":891.9,"endTime":894.3,"body":"to filing for unemployment"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":891.9,"endTime":894.3,"body":"insurance, you know, somebody"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":894.3,"endTime":898.92,"body":"that isn't tech savvy, to be"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":894.3,"endTime":898.92,"body":"able to use the call centre. All"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":898.92,"endTime":903.18,"body":"right, and get it picked up."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":898.92,"endTime":903.18,"body":"Whereas in other states, one"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":903.18,"endTime":907.44,"body":"state in particular, it was so"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":903.18,"endTime":907.44,"body":"bad that the governor put a note"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":907.59,"endTime":910.83,"body":"on his mailbox, his voicemail"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":907.59,"endTime":910.83,"body":"box saying if you're calling"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":910.83,"endTime":913.65,"body":"about unemployment insurance,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":910.83,"endTime":913.65,"body":"please try to call the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":913.65,"endTime":916.71,"body":"Department of Labour, please"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":913.65,"endTime":916.71,"body":"don't leave a message for me, I"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":916.71,"endTime":919.98,"body":"can't handle the volume. Another"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":916.71,"endTime":919.98,"body":"good example is the state of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":919.98,"endTime":924.18,"body":"Kansas. And I've got this great"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":919.98,"endTime":924.18,"body":"chart that shows all the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":924.18,"endTime":928.29,"body":"fraudulent, inappropriate"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":924.18,"endTime":928.29,"body":"activity going on. And then,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":929.01,"endTime":932.61,"body":"literally, the next day that we"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":929.01,"endTime":932.61,"body":"turned on ThreatMetrix,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":932.7,"endTime":936.81,"body":"Emailage, ID Analytics and other"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":932.7,"endTime":936.81,"body":"tools. It dropped down to less"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":936.81,"endTime":940.11,"body":"than a half a percent. The one"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":936.81,"endTime":940.11,"body":"thing about these criminals, YS,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":940.68,"endTime":943.17,"body":"you gotta give them a lot of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":940.68,"endTime":943.17,"body":"credit. They're super smart,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":943.17,"endTime":947.07,"body":"they're super efficient, and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":943.17,"endTime":947.07,"body":"they will not waste their time"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":947.49,"endTime":951.21,"body":"focusing on places that have the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":947.49,"endTime":951.21,"body":"right identity verification,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":951.24,"endTime":954.18,"body":"right, when there's other places"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":951.24,"endTime":954.18,"body":"where they can go and rob and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":954.18,"endTime":955.11,"body":"pilfer at will."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":955.11,"endTime":957.3,"body":"Absolutely, there are so"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":955.11,"endTime":957.3,"body":"many places that don't have any"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":957.3,"endTime":959.58,"body":"gates, why deal with it right?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":960.3,"endTime":961.05,"body":"100%"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":962.4,"endTime":965.82,"body":"So there are solutions"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":962.4,"endTime":965.82,"body":"in working with private sector"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":966.3,"endTime":970.83,"body":"to address some of these issues"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":966.3,"endTime":970.83,"body":"up front. But what about when"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":970.83,"endTime":974.49,"body":"you catch criminals? Is there"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":970.83,"endTime":974.49,"body":"the stick side of the question"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":974.49,"endTime":978.42,"body":"here about how you prosecute"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":974.49,"endTime":978.42,"body":"those who are caught doing these"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":978.42,"endTime":979.5,"body":"criminal activities."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":980.11,"endTime":983.44,"body":"So first of all,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":980.11,"endTime":983.44,"body":"you start with the notion that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":983.44,"endTime":988.87,"body":"pay and chase doesn't work,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":983.44,"endTime":988.87,"body":"right of the approximately $250"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":988.9,"endTime":993.82,"body":"billion that was stolen for"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":988.9,"endTime":993.82,"body":"unemployment insurance. Less"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":993.82,"endTime":998.62,"body":"than $1.6 billion has been"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":993.82,"endTime":998.62,"body":"recovered so far. The second"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":998.65,"endTime":1003.81,"body":"issue is the capability at the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":998.65,"endTime":1003.81,"body":"state and local level to do"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1003.81,"endTime":1006.87,"body":"these investigations. When"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1003.81,"endTime":1006.87,"body":"you're dealing with"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1006.87,"endTime":1009.78,"body":"sophisticated transnational"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1006.87,"endTime":1009.78,"body":"criminal groups, when you're"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1009.78,"endTime":1013.71,"body":"dealing with sophisticated"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1009.78,"endTime":1013.71,"body":"organised crime groups, they are"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1013.71,"endTime":1017.64,"body":"very difficult investigations,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1013.71,"endTime":1017.64,"body":"you need deep technical"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1017.79,"endTime":1022.35,"body":"expertise. And you also need the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1017.79,"endTime":1022.35,"body":"government entity to cooperate."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1022.38,"endTime":1027.09,"body":"So there have been a couple of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1022.38,"endTime":1027.09,"body":"success stories. The best one"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1027.12,"endTime":1032.58,"body":"was in Washington State. They"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1027.12,"endTime":1032.58,"body":"were attacked by a Nigerian"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1032.58,"endTime":1037.11,"body":"criminal group that typically"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1032.58,"endTime":1037.11,"body":"specialised in romance scams,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1037.11,"endTime":1039.81,"body":"but moved their operation to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1037.11,"endTime":1039.81,"body":"unemployment insurance."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1040.38,"endTime":1048.39,"body":"Individuals stole $800 million."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1040.38,"endTime":1048.39,"body":"I'm gonna say that again, the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1048.42,"endTime":1055.35,"body":"individual scheme netted $800"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1048.42,"endTime":1055.35,"body":"million. And thanks to the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1055.35,"endTime":1058.59,"body":"effort of the United States"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1055.35,"endTime":1058.59,"body":"Secret Service, and the Federal"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1058.59,"endTime":1063.21,"body":"Bureau of Investigations, they"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1058.59,"endTime":1063.21,"body":"were able to identify the group."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1064.2,"endTime":1067.38,"body":"They understood that the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1064.2,"endTime":1067.38,"body":"ringleader was going to be"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1067.38,"endTime":1071.88,"body":"leaving Nigeria and was going to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1067.38,"endTime":1071.88,"body":"go to Mykonos in the Greek"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1071.88,"endTime":1076.17,"body":"islands to enjoy a little"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1071.88,"endTime":1076.17,"body":"vacation. And he was greeted by"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1076.17,"endTime":1080.04,"body":"the FBI who gave him a private"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1076.17,"endTime":1080.04,"body":"jet ride back to the United"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1080.04,"endTime":1083.94,"body":"States, where he's been"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1080.04,"endTime":1083.94,"body":"sentenced to 25 years in prison."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1084.27,"endTime":1089.07,"body":"But that's the anomaly, right?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1084.27,"endTime":1089.07,"body":"The fact of the matter is, if"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1089.07,"endTime":1094.86,"body":"you put the right tools in place"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1089.07,"endTime":1094.86,"body":"up front, you don't need to go"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1094.86,"endTime":1098.28,"body":"and do the prosecutions. The"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1094.86,"endTime":1098.28,"body":"other problem with prosecutions"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1098.28,"endTime":1103.2,"body":"right now is law enforcement is"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1098.28,"endTime":1103.2,"body":"not well staffed, on average, so"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1103.2,"endTime":1109.62,"body":"only at 71% capacity. So, this"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1103.2,"endTime":1109.62,"body":"type of thievery, which doesn't"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1109.62,"endTime":1114.51,"body":"involve violence, it doesn't get"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1109.62,"endTime":1114.51,"body":"a lot of attention. In fact,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1114.54,"endTime":1119.43,"body":"there's a great article in"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1114.54,"endTime":1119.43,"body":"Newsweek, about a year ago and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1119.43,"endTime":1123.3,"body":"the article asked citizens to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1119.43,"endTime":1123.3,"body":"stop calling the police"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1123.3,"endTime":1127.29,"body":"departments about unemployment"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1123.3,"endTime":1127.29,"body":"insurance fraud, because it was"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1127.29,"endTime":1129.27,"body":"taking up too much of their"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1127.29,"endTime":1129.27,"body":"capacity."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1129.36,"endTime":1133.41,"body":"I'm not surprised. Is"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1129.36,"endTime":1133.41,"body":"this unique to the US? Or are"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1133.41,"endTime":1136.41,"body":"you seeing this as a problem"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1133.41,"endTime":1136.41,"body":"across the world?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1136.75,"endTime":1139.72,"body":"That's a great"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1136.75,"endTime":1139.72,"body":"question YS, in fact, I was just"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1139.75,"endTime":1145.93,"body":"over in the UK in November, and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1139.75,"endTime":1145.93,"body":"I met with the Home Office. The"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1145.93,"endTime":1150.82,"body":"exact same transnational"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1145.93,"endTime":1150.82,"body":"criminal groups have also hit"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1150.82,"endTime":1156.13,"body":"the UK market, where they stole"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1150.82,"endTime":1156.13,"body":"money for unemployment insurance"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1156.16,"endTime":1162.31,"body":"and other pandemic relief. In"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1156.16,"endTime":1162.31,"body":"fact, there was a story on NBC"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1162.34,"endTime":1166.18,"body":"about three weeks ago, and what"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1162.34,"endTime":1166.18,"body":"it talked about was this group,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1166.21,"endTime":1170.92,"body":"APT41, which is a well known"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1166.21,"endTime":1170.92,"body":"hacking group, and how they were"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1170.92,"endTime":1175.99,"body":"stealing money from both the US"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1170.92,"endTime":1175.99,"body":"and the UK. These criminals, all"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1176.02,"endTime":1180.19,"body":"they want to do is get this"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1176.02,"endTime":1180.19,"body":"money, then they want to use the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1180.19,"endTime":1182.59,"body":"money for nefarious purposes."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1180.19,"endTime":1182.59,"body":"And that's one of the things"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1182.59,"endTime":1185.08,"body":"that most people don't talk"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1182.59,"endTime":1185.08,"body":"about. What are they doing with"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1185.08,"endTime":1192.55,"body":"this money? Buying drugs, child"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1185.08,"endTime":1192.55,"body":"exploitation, terrorism, and"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1192.55,"endTime":1196.09,"body":"other untoward activities that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1192.55,"endTime":1196.09,"body":"harm our democracy."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1196.69,"endTime":1200.53,"body":"So let's talk about"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1196.69,"endTime":1200.53,"body":"potentially some solutions,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1200.56,"endTime":1203.68,"body":"you've already touched on some"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1200.56,"endTime":1203.68,"body":"of them. But how do governments"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1203.68,"endTime":1206.89,"body":"and private organisations"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1203.68,"endTime":1206.89,"body":"address this balance between"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1206.89,"endTime":1211.33,"body":"speed and security more"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1206.89,"endTime":1211.33,"body":"reassuringly? And more"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1211.33,"endTime":1212.35,"body":"consistently?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1212.0,"endTime":1216.29,"body":"I think part of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1212.0,"endTime":1216.29,"body":"the answer is bringing in that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1216.29,"endTime":1221.12,"body":"next generation of leadership"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1216.29,"endTime":1221.12,"body":"that understands technology."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1221.96,"endTime":1226.04,"body":"Right? I think that's really"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1221.96,"endTime":1226.04,"body":"important. I mean, when you work"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1226.04,"endTime":1230.6,"body":"in an agency, and it's very"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1226.04,"endTime":1230.6,"body":"complicated, because you have"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1230.6,"endTime":1236.75,"body":"federal, state rules, you have"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1230.6,"endTime":1236.75,"body":"IGs, you got a process book"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1236.75,"endTime":1241.04,"body":"that's 1000s of pages long. It's"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1236.75,"endTime":1241.04,"body":"real hard. On the other hand, I"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1241.04,"endTime":1243.86,"body":"think certain people with"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1241.04,"endTime":1243.86,"body":"different technical skills can"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1243.86,"endTime":1248.48,"body":"make a difference. The second"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1243.86,"endTime":1248.48,"body":"part is from the top, from the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1248.48,"endTime":1253.94,"body":"elected leadership. They need to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1248.48,"endTime":1253.94,"body":"articulate that if you get"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1253.94,"endTime":1258.05,"body":"caught frauding there's going to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1253.94,"endTime":1258.05,"body":"be a consequence. I don't know"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1258.05,"endTime":1262.01,"body":"if you realise right now, the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1258.05,"endTime":1262.01,"body":"Department of Justice, literally"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1262.04,"endTime":1265.94,"body":"every single week now is issuing"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1262.04,"endTime":1265.94,"body":"press releases about people that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1265.94,"endTime":1271.1,"body":"have been caught doing fraud."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1265.94,"endTime":1271.1,"body":"That is a highly effective"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1271.13,"endTime":1275.3,"body":"deterrent, because if you think"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1271.13,"endTime":1275.3,"body":"you're going to get caught,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1275.33,"endTime":1278.75,"body":"you're most likely not to do it."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1275.33,"endTime":1278.75,"body":"Right. Really, it's a change in"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1278.75,"endTime":1282.02,"body":"leadership. It's a change in"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1278.75,"endTime":1282.02,"body":"getting people in there that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1282.05,"endTime":1283.76,"body":"understand technology,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1283.79,"endTime":1286.1,"body":"Right? But there were"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1283.79,"endTime":1286.1,"body":"three types of fraudsters,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1286.1,"endTime":1291.74,"body":"right? Individuals, and they"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1286.1,"endTime":1291.74,"body":"might be dissuaded. Domestic"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1291.74,"endTime":1295.4,"body":"organised criminals, they too"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1291.74,"endTime":1295.4,"body":"might be somewhat discouraged."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1295.7,"endTime":1299.6,"body":"But the transnational fraudsters"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1295.7,"endTime":1299.6,"body":"probably don't care. Right?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1299.59,"endTime":1302.99,"body":"Yeah, that's a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1299.59,"endTime":1302.99,"body":"great point, right? The average"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1303.064,"endTime":1307.574,"body":"citizen that got pulled into"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1303.064,"endTime":1307.574,"body":"this fraud, and some of them are"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1307.648,"endTime":1312.158,"body":"getting prosecuted right now."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1307.648,"endTime":1312.158,"body":"You know, they read about it on"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1312.232,"endTime":1316.89,"body":"Facebook, and YS, they just had"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1312.232,"endTime":1316.89,"body":"a bad day. And like to go ahead"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1312.71,"endTime":1380.24,"body":"Woody, is there a way to kind of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1312.71,"endTime":1380.24,"body":"rate local, state, federal"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1316.964,"endTime":1321.4,"body":"and prosecute those individuals,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1316.964,"endTime":1321.4,"body":"because the right processes"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1321.474,"endTime":1325.762,"body":"weren't in place. I got a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1321.474,"endTime":1325.762,"body":"problem with that. The organised"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1325.836,"endTime":1329.681,"body":"criminals, particularly when"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1325.836,"endTime":1329.681,"body":"you're dealing with the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1329.755,"endTime":1334.117,"body":"transnationals. It's not like"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1329.755,"endTime":1334.117,"body":"the groups aren't known. They"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1334.191,"endTime":1338.775,"body":"know the groups and resources"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1334.191,"endTime":1338.775,"body":"are needed, you know, within the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1338.849,"endTime":1342.915,"body":"FBI and the Secret Service to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1338.849,"endTime":1342.915,"body":"mitigate their ability to"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1342.989,"endTime":1347.573,"body":"attack. I mean, July 9th 2020,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1342.989,"endTime":1347.573,"body":"Michael D'Ambrosio testified in"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1347.647,"endTime":1351.861,"body":"front of the Homeland Security"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1347.647,"endTime":1351.861,"body":"Committee, Michael was the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1351.935,"endTime":1356.149,"body":"number two at the US Secret"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1351.935,"endTime":1356.149,"body":"Service, and warned them that"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1356.223,"endTime":1360.511,"body":"transnational criminal groups"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1356.223,"endTime":1360.511,"body":"were targeting COVID benefit"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1360.585,"endTime":1365.391,"body":"payments. Everyone knew what was"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1360.585,"endTime":1365.391,"body":"going to happen. Right, but they"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1365.465,"endTime":1370.123,"body":"just didn't have the resources."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1365.465,"endTime":1370.123,"body":"They didn't have the time, they"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1370.197,"endTime":1371.75,"body":"had other priorities."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1380.24,"endTime":1385.04,"body":"government according to how"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1380.24,"endTime":1385.04,"body":"effective they are in securing"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1385.04,"endTime":1388.61,"body":"these resources, and putting"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1385.04,"endTime":1388.61,"body":"them into use to prevent these"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1388.61,"endTime":1391.97,"body":"frauds? Because once they become"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1388.61,"endTime":1391.97,"body":"visible, maybe they'll do"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1391.97,"endTime":1395.24,"body":"something about it. And I'm not"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1391.97,"endTime":1395.24,"body":"sure it's just about next gen of"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1395.24,"endTime":1398.12,"body":"leadership that understands"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1395.24,"endTime":1398.12,"body":"tech, of course, that helps. But"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1398.12,"endTime":1402.2,"body":"I wonder if they are"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1398.12,"endTime":1402.2,"body":"accountable? Are the elected"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1402.2,"endTime":1405.95,"body":"officials in our governments"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1402.2,"endTime":1405.95,"body":"accountable?"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1406.37,"endTime":1412.16,"body":"So there's a lot to that. So the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1406.37,"endTime":1412.16,"body":"first piece, keep in mind, the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1412.16,"endTime":1416.36,"body":"unemployment insurance programme"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1412.16,"endTime":1416.36,"body":"has had the highest improper"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1416.36,"endTime":1421.1,"body":"payment rate for the last 15"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1416.36,"endTime":1421.1,"body":"years at over 10%. Right, the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1421.1,"endTime":1423.68,"body":"pandemic just accelerated that."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1423.77,"endTime":1427.7,"body":"Right. It was so quick"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1423.77,"endTime":1427.7,"body":"and so required, so necessary."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1427.73,"endTime":1428.09,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1429.47,"endTime":1431.6,"body":"There is a group"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1429.47,"endTime":1431.6,"body":"called the National Association"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1431.6,"endTime":1438.62,"body":"of State Budget Officers that is"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1431.6,"endTime":1438.62,"body":"working on that. And what I like"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1438.62,"endTime":1443.09,"body":"about what they're doing is it"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1438.62,"endTime":1443.09,"body":"gets into the governmental"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1443.09,"endTime":1449.0,"body":"auditing, no different than when"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1443.09,"endTime":1449.0,"body":"RELX gets audited. And that does"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1449.0,"endTime":1452.18,"body":"change how people view them."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1449.0,"endTime":1452.18,"body":"Maybe Moody's won't be willing"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1452.18,"endTime":1455.27,"body":"to loan them money, you know,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1452.18,"endTime":1455.27,"body":"the different rating agencies"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1455.63,"endTime":1459.11,"body":"will pick that information up."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1455.63,"endTime":1459.11,"body":"So I think that's going to help."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1459.38,"endTime":1465.59,"body":"I think the other part is the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1459.38,"endTime":1465.59,"body":"reality of the situation where"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1465.65,"endTime":1468.44,"body":"all this money went out the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1465.65,"endTime":1468.44,"body":"door. Now budgets are"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1468.44,"endTime":1472.13,"body":"tightening. And States are"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1468.44,"endTime":1472.13,"body":"beginning to say, I don't have"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1472.13,"endTime":1476.27,"body":"enough resources to provide for"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1472.13,"endTime":1476.27,"body":"the things that I committed to."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1477.14,"endTime":1481.25,"body":"Because I certainly, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1477.14,"endTime":1481.25,"body":"understand fraud, right. And"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1481.25,"endTime":1483.56,"body":"when you're dealing with the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1481.25,"endTime":1483.56,"body":"transnational criminal groups,"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1483.56,"endTime":1486.68,"body":"you're dealing with organised"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1483.56,"endTime":1486.68,"body":"criminal groups, none of which"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1486.71,"endTime":1491.66,"body":"are likely located in your"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1486.71,"endTime":1491.66,"body":"state. It's really easy to say"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1491.69,"endTime":1496.07,"body":"I'm not going to tolerate that."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1491.69,"endTime":1496.07,"body":"Right. Where you get into a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1496.07,"endTime":1500.75,"body":"challenge is the individuals who"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1496.07,"endTime":1500.75,"body":"have a bad day, who make a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1500.75,"endTime":1504.68,"body":"mistake. Right, but they don't"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1500.75,"endTime":1504.68,"body":"make up for their fraud is if"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1504.68,"endTime":1508.07,"body":"the federal government in the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1504.68,"endTime":1508.07,"body":"States just said, we are no"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1508.07,"endTime":1511.07,"body":"longer going to tolerate this."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1508.07,"endTime":1511.07,"body":"And we're going to put these"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1511.07,"endTime":1516.05,"body":"tools in place. Can you imagine"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1511.07,"endTime":1516.05,"body":"YS what you could do with $250"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1516.05,"endTime":1516.44,"body":"billion?"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1517.34,"endTime":1521.18,"body":"Oh, my goodness. Yes,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1517.34,"endTime":1521.18,"body":"absolutely. You know, I think"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1521.18,"endTime":1525.89,"body":"that we all know that we tend to"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1521.18,"endTime":1525.89,"body":"focus on things that get"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1525.89,"endTime":1531.41,"body":"measured. And so I was wondering"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1525.89,"endTime":1531.41,"body":"whether this fraud needs to be"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1531.41,"endTime":1536.66,"body":"measured more visibly for more"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1531.41,"endTime":1536.66,"body":"people to make accountable those"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1536.66,"endTime":1538.19,"body":"who should be addressing this."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1538.72,"endTime":1541.24,"body":"That's why I like"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1538.72,"endTime":1541.24,"body":"what NASBO is doing, because"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1541.24,"endTime":1545.86,"body":"that'll come back into the"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1541.24,"endTime":1545.86,"body":"credit rating agencies. It'll be"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1545.86,"endTime":1547.48,"body":"more prominently displayed."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1547.75,"endTime":1553.27,"body":"Absolutely. It really"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1547.75,"endTime":1553.27,"body":"will do that. Well, Woody, you"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1553.27,"endTime":1558.28,"body":"are obviously an encyclopaedia"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1553.27,"endTime":1558.28,"body":"on this subject, and just the"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1558.28,"endTime":1562.15,"body":"examples you've rattled off, I'm"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1558.28,"endTime":1562.15,"body":"sure there's 100 times more that"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1562.15,"endTime":1565.78,"body":"you can share with us. But this"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1562.15,"endTime":1565.78,"body":"has been really insightful."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1566.05,"endTime":1572.14,"body":"Thank you so much. And I hope"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1566.05,"endTime":1572.14,"body":"that somehow we can muster more,"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1572.77,"endTime":1576.85,"body":"you know, initiatives at the"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1572.77,"endTime":1576.85,"body":"government levels, all levels of"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1576.85,"endTime":1581.29,"body":"government that is, and start"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1576.85,"endTime":1581.29,"body":"to, you know, plug some of these"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1581.29,"endTime":1585.79,"body":"leaks in our system today. We"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1581.29,"endTime":1585.79,"body":"hope that we don't have another"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1585.79,"endTime":1589.6,"body":"COVID situation where government"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1585.79,"endTime":1589.6,"body":"needs to suddenly and quickly"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1589.6,"endTime":1594.25,"body":"spend this much money but even"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1589.6,"endTime":1594.25,"body":"for ongoing programmes, it would"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1594.25,"endTime":1598.51,"body":"be so unfair that that money"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1594.25,"endTime":1598.51,"body":"goes into the wrong hands. So"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1598.54,"endTime":1602.86,"body":"Woody, thank you so much. And I"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1598.54,"endTime":1602.86,"body":"hope that by building some more"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1602.86,"endTime":1608.14,"body":"trust into these systems, that"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1602.86,"endTime":1608.14,"body":"our regulators and lawmakers"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1608.14,"endTime":1611.8,"body":"will be able to more confidently"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1608.14,"endTime":1611.8,"body":"come up with necessary"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1611.8,"endTime":1615.04,"body":"programmes for those who are in"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1611.8,"endTime":1615.04,"body":"need. Thank you again."},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1615.46,"endTime":1617.14,"body":"Thanks. Have a"},{"speaker":"Woody Talcove","startTime":1615.46,"endTime":1617.14,"body":"great day YS."},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1617.44,"endTime":1619.57,"body":"Thank you to our"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1617.44,"endTime":1619.57,"body":"listeners for tuning in. Don't"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1619.57,"endTime":1623.02,"body":"forget to hit subscribe on your"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1619.57,"endTime":1623.02,"body":"podcast app to get new episodes"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1623.02,"endTime":1625.93,"body":"as soon as they're released, and"},{"speaker":"YS Chi","startTime":1623.02,"endTime":1625.93,"body":"thank you again for listening."}]}