Alicia’s story is a rare story of survival. Twenty years ago, Alicia was abducted and raped by a man she met in an online chatroom. She was just 13 at the time. Her ordeal lasted four days, which was the time it took for the FBI to track down her kidnapper. Since her rescue, Alicia has devoted her life to fighting child predators and educating children and adults on internet safety and sexual exploitation. She is one of the most vocal and outspoken advocates for child safety legislation.
In this episode, Alicia shares her insights on the scale of the problem of missing children and sextortions, victim blaming and what all parents should do to protect their children from online predators. As we become increasingly mindful of the issues associated with the sharing of personal data, Alicia reminds us that this same information enables task force agents to rescue endangered children.
You can find out more about Alicia's work at aliciakozak.com
This podcast is brought to you by RELX.
Alicia’s story is a rare story of survival. Twenty years ago, Alicia was abducted and raped by a man she met in an online chatroom. She was just 13 at the time. Her ordeal lasted four days, which was the time it took for the FBI to track down her kidnapper. Since her rescue, Alicia has devoted her life to fighting child predators and educating children and adults on internet safety and sexual exploitation. She is one of the most vocal and outspoken advocates for child safety legislation.
In this episode, Alicia shares her insights on the scale of the problem of missing children and sextortions, victim blaming and what all parents should do to protect their children from online predators. As we become increasingly mindful of the issues associated with the sharing of personal data, Alicia reminds us that this same information enables task force agents to rescue endangered children.
You can find out more about Alicia's work at aliciakozak.com
This podcast is brought to you by RELX.
The Unique Contributions podcast is brought to you by RELX. Find out more about us by visiting relx.com.
Alicia Kozak:And the fact is that every child can fall victim, no matter what kind of community, no matter what kind of family, and that is just really important to remember that this can happen to you, it can happen to your family, it happened to me and I certainly never thought it would happen to me.
YS Chi:Hello, and welcome to series three of Unique Contributions, a RELX podcast where we bring you closer to some of the most interesting people from around our businesses. I'm YS Chi and I'll be exploring some of the biggest issues that matter to society, how they are making a difference, and what brought them to where they are today. In this episode, I want to delve into the topic of online safety and the dark world of internet grooming and abduction of children. My guest today is the extraordinary and internationally acclaimed Alicia Kozak, the internet safety expert and missing persons advocate. Alicia's story is a rare story of survival. 20 years ago, Alicia was abducted and raped by a man she met in an online chat room. She was only 13 at the time. Her ordeal lasted four days, which was the time it took for the FBI to track down her kidnapper. Since her rescue, Alicia has devoted her life to fighting child predators and educates children and adults on internet safety and sexual exploitation. She's one of the most vocal and outspoken advocates for child safety legislation. She testified before Congress and works to pass ALicia's law, her namesake, which provides funding to the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force, enabling them to rescue endangered children. She has also featured on The Oprah Winfrey Show, Good Morning America, ABC, CNN, and graced the cover of People magazine amongst others. Alicia, it is an absolute honour and pleasure to have you with us. Welcome.
Alicia Kozak:Thank you. I am so excited to be here and to talk about this incredibly important topic with your audience.
YS Chi:I believe your case was one of the first widely publicised cases of grooming, and child abduction on the internet. Since then, there has been an explosion of this kind of crime. And I recently read that there are 300,000 children reported missing each year in the US. Can you please give us a feel for the scale of the problem?
Unknown:Ah, well, the scale of the problem is, it's truly massive. When this happened to me back in 2002, there were no other stories like mine. And following my rescue, I realised that a big reason that this happened to me was because there was no internet safety education. And that's why I began sharing my story at the age of 14. But I knew back then that this problem was only going to grow because I had an understanding of the internet and internet predation that other people didn't seem to have at the time. Thankfully, we're realising now that this is an issue that we need to focus on that this is a danger facing every child and every family. But I still think people don't quite understand how big of an issue and how easily this can happen to your family. So when speaking about missing children, like you said, my story is actually quite rare. And in my case, statistically, I should be dead. But 300,000, over 300,000 children go missing every year. Thankfully, over 90% of them are safely recovered. But when we're talking about the internet, we are not just talking about children who go missing. This goes far beyond the child who is abducted and leaves with the predator and is groomed that is most absolutely an issue. But predators reach further than that. And it is more insidious and more hidden.
YS Chi:Can you elaborate a little more please?
Alicia Kozak:Well, when this happened to me, it seemed that the real only conversation that we were having, as rarely as we were having it, was children being groomed and kidnapped over the internet. And like I said, that absolutely happens. It happens far too often. And in many of the schools I've spoken in, it's happened in those very schools. But in every school I've spoken in, there have been cases recently of sextortion, and sextortion is so incredibly insidious that these children are held captive just as much as I was when I was chained in a basement. And I think that's hard for people to wrap their head around. But they're held captive by shame and guilt and fear. And what sextortion is, is that this child is groomed, and that they are then asked for a photo, or video or material. And now they are blackmailed. And what's been happening is that in most of these cases, in like 80% of them, it's not to get more images. It's for financial reasons, it's to truly extort. And kids don't know how to handle that. They don't know how to ask for help,
YS Chi:Alicia, in your knowledge, how much in those cases are family then brought in? Or do children just suffer on their own without being able to even talk about the financial extortion?
Alicia Kozak:Oh, so many children are suffering, I speak to so many of them, and I help them talk to their parents. They'll come up to me afterwards, and after a presentation and they'll say, Alicia, I'm really scared. I'm really embarrassed. I'm afraid my parents are gonna take my phone away. What do I do, and we sit down, and we talk about how to tell their parents. But often parents are brought in. I spoke in a school recently, and there was a boy, I think he was like 11 years old. And he had sent a picture and had been blackmailed and threatened and was terrified. But thankfully, his mom found out because she had looked at his phone. And when the police were brought into this to investigate, they actually discovered that this was in a foreign country with a room of like, 200 computers that this was, they are just targeting random kids.
YS Chi:Yeah, this is a big business.
Alicia Kozak:Exactly, and with this, it's often boys and with boys, we don't have the same conversation surrounding sexting and privacy and all of that, like we do with girls. And that absolutely needs to change.
YS Chi:Indeed, it needs to change and you know, culturally, it is so shamed, right. And yet, we overlook so many of the other things that our children do, that is not what we wish they do. And yet there is some kind of cultural barrier there isn't there.
Alicia Kozak:Yes, and unfortunately, it's natural now. It is part of dating, as wrong as that is, it's seen as dating and dating, whether you're two adults dating or two teens dating, they're kind of the same roles, and the same, for lack of any better term - obligations apply. And that has become so common, and I think also during the pandemic, when that was the only way that kids could really connect was through technology. That was how they were flirting. That was how they were dating, it was the only thing that they could do when they couldn't have any physical contact.
YS Chi:That's right. So I was going to ask, the pandemic did exacerbate this problem?
Alicia Kozak:Oh, hugely. When the pandemic first happened, I remember my first thought and I remember feeling almost kind of silly for it. Because I'm always like, "Oh, the children, like the world is possibly ending, but oh, no, the kids are going to be at home. And they're gonna be on the computers". And that was the first thing that came to my mind is how dangerous this is going to be to kids, as they were going to be at home and online and relying on technology more than ever. But not only that, all the predators were also at home, knowing that the kids were at home and that, for the most part, they were unsupervised. Because their parents, not for lack of caring, but were so busy also working from home. Everybody was at home, but incredibly busy. Yeah, exactly. Mom's on the phone call with Zoom. So now the kids in the bedroom on the phone by themselves. It was a really dangerous combination of things. And I've noticed that actually, in my presentation now that kids are different, that sometimes I'll speak to them, and they will be looking at me like I'm on a screen. Like they won't have the same reactions that they used to have. And they're sort of blunted by all of this and that they no longer, like they used to not want to go outside that when this happened to me, they no longer wanted to go outside because the technology was at home, like it was a desktop and you're on a computer and you couldn't leave. But when we were able to take our phones everywhere that that certainly changed. But now kids want to be at home again. I've spoken to a lot of parents and they'll say, "Well, I tried to get my kid to go out and hang out with their friends and I see them in school, and that's enough". They're not socialising other than online.
YS Chi:All right. So since you've seen this thing now over these 20 years, give us a little bit of the time insight. 20 years ago, this problem existed. 10 years ago, the online images morphed into the pandemic and now it seems out of control, almost at a breaking point. What went wrong? Where did we not do enough to stop this from ballooning like this?
Alicia Kozak:I love this question. Nobody has ever asked me this. And I always love being asked a question that I haven't been asked before. Nobody's ever asked me what went wrong. I don't think I don't want to say anybody is to blame. But when I first started speaking out, I was really called a fear monger. And people were saying that this couldn't happen, and that kids would know better. And it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily practical advice, and people weren't having conversations with kids in a real way. And that's one reason that my presentations were and are so effective is that I have a real conversation with them about where they're at and not, not above or below them. And that is so important. But I don't think people understood how big of an issue that this could become that, when we're looking at this little thing in our hands, this little device, that we are looking at the World Wide Web, and it is all the good and all the evil of the world, in that little box, and everything is just a click away. We understand that evil is around us, and typically, it's outside hopefully, and something can be going on at home, of course, but that we have to be afraid of what's inside. But this device, we have to be afraid of what's with us constantly and all the time. And a predator is really only like I said, just a click away. Also, as far as the groups that investigate these sorts of crimes, we haven't necessarily caught up to the ability of funding them appropriately. So like the Internet Crimes Against Children task forces are funded so little, and they are so overworked but now they're working on these images and with cyber tips that I speak to them and they talk about the case loads, like truly like what you imagine on a desk, just stuff piled so high that they can't get through because there's just more and more and more. And that's where Alicia's law comes in, my namesake, which helps to fund the Internet Crimes Against Children task forces. It's currently passed in 12 US States. Yeah. So not that many, I'm still very proud of that amount. In those states, there's been some really great outcomes, and working on currently making more connections. 2020 kind of put a pause on that, of course. But we need to fund these groups, because they are, they are protecting your children from almost a certain crime. When I talk to kids, that's what I say to them. I say that abduction is possible. But it is rare as compared to what you're facing, which I believe every child will face having. And pretty much every adult to be honest, will be faced with having to send an image like
YS Chi:So I was going to, you know, ask this question, and I that. think you gave me an answer already partially. The fact that it went from physical harm to this financial harm. That means that the number of possibilities of damage has absolutely exponentially grown. Right?
Alicia Kozak:Exactly. And when it comes to this, we're not talking about grooming, to form a false relationship as much. Yes, it's that but it's different because it's scamming. And that's a whole different angle. And it's even more random. This is truly so random that they're just targeting kids, anywhere they can find them.
YS Chi:And it sounds like it is being done. Not just by one or two individuals that are, you know, evil, but by an entire organisation - a business that's behind it.
Alicia Kozak:So let's ask you a question or anybody else who's listening to this - Have you ever almost been scammed? Do you ever get those emails?
YS Chi:Oh, yes, I get plenty of those.
Alicia Kozak:So think about that. Think about how often - on all my devices - Yep. I mean, we're probably getting them right now. Like I've had that happen. I've said that. And I looked down at my phone, like at my Apple watch or something. And I'm like, "Oh, look, somebody's giving me a free fridge". Like that's not true, obviously. But that this is such an issue. And people found a way to, to make money and people who don't care about the wellbeing of anybody and also think that they can hide behind the anonymity of the computer, or the phone or whatever technology they're using. And also, this is often in foreign countries where it's just harder to investigate that.
YS Chi:Exactly. So let me get back to this Alicia's law that you are advocating. Funding, where should funding be directed?
Alicia Kozak:So it needs to be funded, or directed to the groups like the Internet Crimes Against Children task forces to give them more boots on the ground, to give them actually more officers and more agents, better technology, more computers, just the whole gamut. I've talked to some of them and they are working out of teeny tiny little trailers or some have like one full time ICAC officer, it's it's disheartening. I go to a lot of conferences and I stand with these people and I present to them and I watch how much they're struggling. And I hear them talk about their case loads and it's heartbreaking because you can hear how much they want to do more and how passionate they are about their job. And sometimes they have like tears in their eyes. Yeah. And they know they can make a difference if they had the funding and the resources.
YS Chi:Can you just give us one example of a successful advocacy that in one of those 12 states, and what difference it might
Alicia Kozak:Sure. So a lot of it, I can't share. Some of it have made? I've been told with very little detail, but one of the best outcomes is and I get really giddy about this, you can hear Terrific. That is so uplifting to hear. I'm going to turn the it in my voice. I'm very excited because it has to do with a fluffy dog. So in Wisconsin, where Alicia's Law passed, they, Alicia's Law helped to fund a ESD dog, which is an electronic storage device dog. And what these dogs are able to do, angle a little bit and ask, this explosion of victims that we see they're specifically trained to sniff out technology. So anything from a giant desktop, to a teeny, tiny micro SD card, these dogs are able to sniff it out. Even if it's in the ceiling, or it was in on a desk and it was moved. It's really incredible. And the officer in Wisconsin, who is a dear friend among children that have been groomed. Do you think there is of mine, she named him Kozack after me. So I have this like furry crime fighting buddy. And he has been instrumental in finding, I believe he's been on 400 searches and on over 300 of them - I don't know the exact number off the top of my head - But he found devices that were missed. And it's not because law any study or anything that we know of and how this affects the enforcement isn't good at their job, or they're not looking hard enough. It's because they don't actually tear open mattresses and break open the lights. And a case is only as strong as its evidence. So if somebody is sharing Child Sexual Abuse mental health of young children? There are many other things material, and they have it on a drive, and they hide it, and it's hidden, and you can't find it, then that's missed evidence. And like I said, a case is only as strong as its evidence. So these dogs, there's more and more of them all over the country. And they are incredible. But that was one of going on in our world, that probably triggers more mental the most amazing outcomes, I think of Alicia's Law. health crisis. But there definitely is a visible crisis today. Do you think this has something to do with it? Absolutely, technology has done a number on children's mental health. There is so much they have to live up to through social media. There is this push for, for fame and to be noticed, so to not have a private account but to have everything public have a public Tik Tok, have it be shocking, have it be sexy, whatever. So kids are pushing the boundaries. But then when they fall victim to something like this. They're not telling, they're not coming forward, they're too afraid often. Because the whole point of this person who groomed them is to terrify them, is to shame them. I was recently invited to speak at a school and I'm speaking there next month, and one of their kids, heartbreakingly was extorted and had become so overwhelmed by it, that he died by suicide. And we're seeing this more and more where these kids feel helpless. And we really need to turn that around and in a way with, with finesse, and to come face to face with the fact that kids are doing this and not to shame them. Right? Because again, that's what is happening to them.
YS Chi:This is a this is a form of bullying by adults. Oh, absolutely. And it's really easy. And you know, you know, the outcome of bullying, you know, often is is tragic.
Alicia Kozak:Yes, and it's making it so these kids are having a hard time functioning, imagine you are a 10 year old girl, and you sent this photo. And now this person says, you know, do this and this and this, or I'm going to do that and you're at the dinner table with your family. You have 10 seconds to do this, or I'm going to do this awful thing. And I spoke to parent recently as well who got involved and was like you need to leave my daughter alone. And what that person actually said, that predator said, "Well, you know, if you've try to do something about this, I'm going to make sure she kills herself" and started threatening the mom. And that's why it's important to for the family not to feel shame to get help. This isn't just a one size fits all, one person goes to one person the problem solved. This has to be reported to law enforcement as well. And that's where the family has to stand up and not be ashamed.
YS Chi:Right. So I don't hear a tone of you blaming people. So I'm going to see if we can get your wisdom around. You know How do we tackle this? Now technology isn't inherently a bad thing, but it can, like everything be used for bad things. Every advancement we make, you know, has a light and shadow right? So there will be trade offs. It does enable predators, but it can also enable agents and investigators to catch them. As we know, every online transaction is encrypted, and leaves a digital trace or digital clues, which then police and investigators can use to find the abductors and abusers. I believe this has allowed them to improve the recovery rates of missing children. The game changer is speed and access to information. So as someone who campaigns so strongly for online safety, what are some of your thoughts on the tension between allowing law enforcement officials to access information at speed versus ensuring people's privacy?
Alicia Kozak:Okay, that was a great question, and I love it. And I'm going to answer in a second. But I do want to touch on the victim blaming really quickly. Is that okay? Because I think it's important. Yeah, absolutely.
YS Chi:Yes, please.
Alicia Kozak:Okay, so with the shame and the potential victim blaming, because these children are truly victims, we need to remember, and parents definitely need to remember because they'll see that what their child is saying and doing is shocking, the topics that they're covering, the conversations that they're having with these predators may be shocking. And the predator is pushing their boundaries. And in a way, forcing them to do that, that is what grooming is, it breaks down your boundaries and your values, and the child starts to make mistakes. And it can be something so completely out of that child's character, and something that would shock society and shock the family. But please know that that is what grooming is. And it is never that child's fault. No matter what they're talking about, no matter what poor choices they make. They are a kid. And this is an adult who is tricking them and manipulating them on purpose to do those specific things.
YS Chi:Yes, we all need to be remembering that.
Alicia Kozak:Absolutely. Because it's really easy to go,"Well, my kid wouldn't do that". Or you read a news story, and to just think that that child is a bad kid. And that's not the case at all. Again, these predators are grooming these kids to do things that they really wouldn't otherwise do, or things that they're naturally curious about. It's again, a dangerous combination of things.
YS Chi:So we need to catch these people - we really do. What is your thought on that tension between law enforcement having access to information and having privacy respected?
Alicia Kozak:It's tricky. Because I don't have an answer, that's an easy answer. And I wish I did. Because privacy is so important. In a time when we share just about everything, we overshare. We still need to have an amount of privacy. And I certainly want my privacy to be respected. I want your privacy to be respected. But when it comes to the protection of children, we have to find a balance. And I can't say necessarily what that balance is. But we need to realise that that has to come first and foremost, that there are children out there who are suffering and in pain that could be rescued based on something as simple as a quicker investigation. For example, in my own case, looking back and at the very early days of the internet, again, the way that I was rescued is that he had been live streaming, what he was doing to me to other people online. And there was a group of people who are watching this, who chose to watch this who are enjoying watching it and my pain and degradation. But one of these people who was watching it was able to recognise me from my National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children poster, and he ran out to a payphone at the time, that tells you how old this he ran out to a payphone and he contacted law enforcement. And he was able to give one of the screen names that the perpetrator used, but not anything else. He had no other information really. And so law enforcement was able to track down the IP address to the house address from that screen name. And they broke into that house to rescue me around 4.30 and he had left, he left me chained but he left that day to go to work. And when he came, when he was going to come back to that house that night, he had planned to kill me. Oh my. And so when we look at how important time is, we're talking about seconds and when you think about a missing child how far they can go, how far to how fast do cars go? Right? We're talking at least a mile a minute that your child is further and further away. And so we need to really weigh that and what that means and what law enforcement should have access to and absolutely needs to have access to because we have to keep kids safe, we can use the same technology that is hurting these kids, to protect them.
YS Chi:So I understand that a federal law was presented last year called ADPPA and that you came out to raise your voice about that proposed legislation, can you tell us what aspect of it you were either supporting, or asking to change?
Alicia Kozak:I just really need for legislators to look at it and realise that it could hinder the rescue of children and missing people and other violent crimes. That that's not something that can be overlooked. And I know it is a difficult area to look into. There is so much grey space and also black and white, it is just very complicated, but that we need to have those conversations and we can't ignore it. I know it is a highly supported bill. And there are parts of it, of course, that are really important. But as far as again, we're looking at people who are being harmed, and most certainly children and the inability to maybe find predators and rapists and human traffickers and other violent criminals. Yeah, we're looking at something so much bigger than that. And again, we're taking away something that could help solve such a big problem. We'd love to talk about problems in the world, right. But we don't necessarily talk about the solutions. And that's what I'm focused on. And that's what we need to focus on together.
YS Chi:Great. Well, I hope they're listening to you, because you've been advocating so long, that we know you're not, you don't have an extra agenda, other than the safety of children and their family. Absolutely. So then what advice would you have? We've heard about the issues we've heard about potential technology implication, and the legal implication, what advice do you have for parents and children? Is it education? Is it something more than that? What should the parents be doing?
Alicia Kozak:Now, this is a really scary issue. And it's something that you might think, if I ignore it, I'll be okay. Or if I talk about it, I'll bring it into my space of reference. And the fact is that every child can fall victim, no matter what kind of community no matter what kind of family, and that is just really important to remember that this can happen to you, it can happen to your family, it happened to me, and I certainly never thought it would happen to me and my parents, never in a million years thought something like that could happen to me. So first, you really need to realise that this is an issue as a parent, and you need to educate yourself as much as possible. And I know that's really daunting, and it's constantly changing. And these emojis and language and everything is changing so quickly. It's hard to keep up with, but that's no reason to not try. The other thing is that you have to talk to your kids about internet safety. You have to talk to them about the dangers from the time that they first touched that laptop or phone, which is very young, I see like toddlers in strollers. But you see kids who are so young on these devices, and they've had to have them because of again, the pandemic. Kids who maybe wouldn't have had that technology before, have had access to it. So to talk to your kids about it, and people ask me, How do I do that? Well just sit down and talk to them. Talk to your kids have a conversation. You know, your kid, you know, your kid best. Sit down and just have that conversation. I met a parent yesterday, I went to an event and she came home and she said she'd I'd never met her before. And I told her my story. And she came home and she talked to her 13 year old daughter. And she said her 13 year old daughter was like I know Mom, leave me alone. And the fact is that you might get that response. And that is okay. Because they do think they know everything. But I've learned just because you know more and you have more information, it doesn't mean that you know better. Next you need to monitor what your kids are doing, and do I mean to invade their privacy - kind of, you have to be able to pick up their device and go through it at any time at any time at all. And it's not because you're trying to get them in trouble. Say you found out that your child went to that party they weren't supposed to or they tried a beer or whatever kids do, that you don't point those out. But if something is really wrong, you can address it. So it's not to like keep ahead of your kid and get them in trouble. It's just if that really horrible thing happens. You have a tool necessary, but at the same time, you really can't completely rely on that tool. I see parents who are like, well, I downloaded this app. So now everything's covered and It's not, you need to have an active part in that. The next thing and I think it is the most important though, is to let your child know that they can come to you with absolutely anything at all, and you will not punish them, you will not shame them, you will not embarrass them. And most importantly, you will not take their device away, because that really is their entire world, that is part of who they are, that is their social identity. And you have to think about how hard it would be to come forward to your parents about something that you know, you could get in trouble for, like the kid who sends that image and now they're being blackmailed, and threatened, it would be so difficult. So having that ability for your child to come to you with absolutely anything that you'll sit down together, you'll work through it, you'll have a cup of hot cocoa and cookies. And you'll tell your child that you're proud of them for coming forward, that this is a very mature thing, you're proud of them, and you're going to solve the issue together.
YS Chi:Speaking of together, if this could be done among all of our community, it would even be more effective, whether that's family, friends, school, our Community Polls, you know, whether that would be you know, a religious institution or outside school activity, if everybody would be aware of this, it would really have a bigger impact than if just the parents had to try to fight this alone.
Alicia Kozak:Oh, absolutely. And that's my goal. When I speak to schools, I speak to not only the kids, but I definitely also speak to the parents. Because I talk to the kids about going to their parents so their parents need to have that right response, but also having the opportunity to speak to the school staff, the people who interact with those kids. And it is so important for people I know, everybody can't be on the same page, but to have this understanding of the dangers and what that response should be.
YS Chi:Well, there's no way to sugarcoat this issue. Kids are the victims, their families then become victims and our community is victimised in turn. Alicia, I can't thank you enough for spending the time with us. You are a true inspiration to all of us. Your ability to overcome adversity, and then turn it into a life mission to help others. This is extraordinary. Thank you so much.
Alicia Kozak:Thank you so much for having me. And again, giving me this opportunity to reach your audience. This is it's more important to have a conversation today than it was when it happened to me. And I'm seeing this by presenting to these audiences all the time. I'm learning from them constantly and seeing what kids are really facing. And we just really need to be prepared. We can fight this and we can we can do something about it. But we have to, we have to do it. It's not enough just to talk about it.
YS Chi:Yes, exactly. And thank goodness, we have you out there doing this so that we can all be educated, because we all have children, whether our own or our neighbours or friends or you know, relatives. We all have children and grandchildren that are affected by this. Thank you so much.
Alicia Kozak:Thank you again.
YS Chi:If you want to learn more about Alicia's work and help make a difference. Please log on to her website aliciakozak.com, A L I C I A K O Z A K.com. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. Don't forget to hit subscribe on your podcast app to get new episodes as soon as they're released. Thanks for listening