Embark on a journey with us, your hosts Jonathan and Lisa Burke, as we draw back the curtains on the stark contrasts and challenging landscapes of corporate and independent Scientology. We kick off by tackling autonomy struggles faced by mission holders and dissect the Church's stringent ethics and security checks, contrasting them with the liberating practices among independent Scientologists. Join our expedition into a world where the essence of L. Ron Hubbard's teachings is sought after without the extremes of the Church's oversight, a realm where personal responsibility in ethics is not just a concept, but a way of life.
Our conversation then navigates the tempestuous seas independent Scientology practitioners face, from a scarcity of auditors to the quest for tighter community bonds. We share warfare tales of past harassment and how a steadfast non-engagement stance has ushered in calmer waters. The spotlight turns to the potential of AI in training and our vision of a retreat that could serve as a lighthouse for continuous learning, unity, and trust among those who walk the path of independent Scientology.
With the precision of skilled auditors, we examine the telltale signs of red flags in auditing practices and the pivotal role of accurate personality assessments, like the original Oxford Capacity Analysis. We stress the critical importance of handling Potential Trouble Source conditions and ensuring proper completion of courses to secure stable gains. The episode wraps up with a deeper look into why individuals might choose to venture into an independent Scientology organization, the controversies that enshroud Scientology, and a call to action for those inspired by Hubbard's work to safeguard the future of these profound teachings.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
Take our personality test and get a free evaluation: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHJQ6DY
Embark on a journey with us, your hosts Jonathan and Lisa Burke, as we draw back the curtains on the stark contrasts and challenging landscapes of corporate and independent Scientology. We kick off by tackling autonomy struggles faced by mission holders and dissect the Church's stringent ethics and security checks, contrasting them with the liberating practices among independent Scientologists. Join our expedition into a world where the essence of L. Ron Hubbard's teachings is sought after without the extremes of the Church's oversight, a realm where personal responsibility in ethics is not just a concept, but a way of life.
Our conversation then navigates the tempestuous seas independent Scientology practitioners face, from a scarcity of auditors to the quest for tighter community bonds. We share warfare tales of past harassment and how a steadfast non-engagement stance has ushered in calmer waters. The spotlight turns to the potential of AI in training and our vision of a retreat that could serve as a lighthouse for continuous learning, unity, and trust among those who walk the path of independent Scientology.
With the precision of skilled auditors, we examine the telltale signs of red flags in auditing practices and the pivotal role of accurate personality assessments, like the original Oxford Capacity Analysis. We stress the critical importance of handling Potential Trouble Source conditions and ensuring proper completion of courses to secure stable gains. The episode wraps up with a deeper look into why individuals might choose to venture into an independent Scientology organization, the controversies that enshroud Scientology, and a call to action for those inspired by Hubbard's work to safeguard the future of these profound teachings.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
Take our personality test and get a free evaluation: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHJQ6DY
Hey there, independent Scientologists. Discover a new perspective to your bridge by visiting ao-gporg. Get in session with remote auditing using the Theta Meter. Are you curious about where you stand? Head on over to ao-gporg now and take our free personality test. Join the growing group of independent Scientologists today.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome to another AOGP Outside of the Church podcast. I'm your host, jonathan Burke, here with my co-host, scientologist Lisa Burke, and we're going to do a little lined interview between Lisa and I. She's going to ask me a bunch of questions and I'm going to give answers regarding comparisons of the corporate Church of Scientology to the independent field Scientology, or the subject of Scientology, as I like to call it. So take it away, lisa.
Speaker 1:Are you?
Speaker 2:ready as I'll ever be. I have no idea what you're going to ask.
Speaker 1:Okay, question one when does the church differ from independent Scientology?
Speaker 2:Well, as far as control goes, you've got the Mission Holder Conference in the way. They control the missions and mission holders don't really have a whole heck of a lot of say. If they want to remain in the corporate Church of Scientology, they have to do what they're told and they have to abide by it and they have to pay a tithe, a significant tithe, and if they're not careful and they're too upstat they will be penalized, like Beverly Hills Mission was about 10-12 years ago. They did really really, really well and they had to do all kinds of ethics handlings and everything because they were actually applying LRH policy and they were nearly declared for committees of evidence and things like that. Yeah, and then you know the books.
Speaker 1:So we don't really have. You know, that kind of thing we don't declare and all of it.
Speaker 2:No, we don't have declares in independent Scientology.
Speaker 1:At least not public.
Speaker 2:At least not public.
Speaker 1:I've seen some people just be like that person's race of block the need you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a little little little covert, mission impossible, tom Cruisey, and you know you can be disavowed by other independent practitioners or something like that, but I've never seen any any group action on anybody. You know, like we've talked about in other podcasts, ethics is a personal thing and that's that's. That's probably one of the biggest and probably the biggest umbrella. That larger arc which is, you know, it's something you talk about a lot, is that ethics is a personal thing and this is something you don't. Well, there's a couple of aspects to this. In the church they tell you what your ethics condition is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you don't get to decide what your condition is. It's what we say goes, and this is one of the areas that we we handle right off the bat with people when we do a DFP interview, when we interview them on a Theta Meter, online, remotely from the comfort of their own home, and we find out about these wrong indication, these outlists in auditing that you get when somebody gives you an item and says you are in the condition of prison.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Church of Scientology, corporate church of Scientology, and we have an ethics repair list that's over 120 questions long and we clean people up on this, because ethics is a personal thing and I say this to people a lot when's the last time the church did a set of conditions with you See? So that's that's really important is you have to, you have to look at that and you have to get that cleaned up, because you're not always in the wrong now, you're not always right either, but you need to decide what your condition is and you need to work on your condition. And that's to me, that's the biggest of all issues in the church of Scientology, the corporate church of Scientology, the independent Scientology. Now, the the opposite side to that and this is going to be controversial for me to say this is the opposite side of that is is that you see, not us, we're somewhere in the middle on the whole thing but you see a lot of of independent auditors in the field who they almost tend to go around Overt's and with holds because they didn't, they didn't, they got mishandled themselves, so they tend to audit people to the degree that their case has bypassed charge on it as well and they go around this and Overt's and with holds huge, huge piece of tech, yeah, and it has to be applied and you can't. You can't go around that because that's you know, that's what the L's are about is Overt's and with holds on different terminals, whole track terminals, pt terminals. You know, terminals are people that you deal with in your life or valences, and this is something the church does in the opposite direction.
Speaker 2:Is this you know, a six month checks with false purpose rundown when you're on your OT levels, which LRH never said you had to do security checks, security checks, security checks and all this stuff, because they're dramatizing their own Overt's on their own public. There's a middle ground and you don't have to get crazy with it. You do what the old man says and you win every time. This is the big problem with the church is they dramatize their own out ethics on their public. Now, I'm not saying that everybody. When I say they, I mean specifically upper manager. We all know who that is and that's the big problem is it has become. It has become culty to that, to that degree where a thought crime is real yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, again, we're talking about something Tom Cruise has done, a movie about, thought crimes. You don't know for somebody just thinking something, you can be security checked for three intensives, four intensives on just having a critical thought about the church that's crazy yeah, so these are.
Speaker 2:These are some of the things on why we have, we have and we are independent Scientologists is you don't have to get crazy with this stuff, but another side of the coin if there was a, the edge of the coin is a lot of independent Scientologists. They never got cleaned up themselves either, these auditors, yeah, and, and they tend to dramatize their own cases on their own public, and that is something that sorely, sorely, sorely needs to be fixed. We consider ourselves a central organization Pirella Rages definition and we're more than happy to help fellow auditors out, and, you know, I'm even happy to do it pro bono to help get people cleaned up and make sure that we're all applying the tech standardly and get things straightened out to where we're all on the level playing field and we're not omitting things. We're doing what he says you need to do in order to get the gains that are available and possible.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So that's my answer for question one.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think if there was a succinct way of putting it, I think, from everything that you said, I would say that the the big catchphrase or line would be that it's self-determinism versus other determinants.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I think I've seen from the get-go that with the church it's almost like enforced responsibility, which is other determined. Yeah Right, if you want to help somebody, well, you've got to be at least that curious, yeah. So, yeah, I definitely think that those are some of the ways I also wanted to add you had mentioned, just for viewers listening, we had a little bang or something and so we had to rerecord, but the first one this is obviously the second take, but the first one you mentioned about prices and that kind of thing. Can you just touch on that as well?
Speaker 2:the comparisons, well, once upon a time you used to be able to get that auditing for roughly 10% of your income annually. That was the policy that LRAD set up. It wasn't supposed to be something. That was supposed that was completely out of reach. And you have to put a person way in debt and double mortgage their home and use their savings and all this stuff that's one of the biggest things is the cost of Scientology and it's so out reality for people that they have to pay that much money in order to go free that it's a stop for people, because obviously the way LRAD intended it was to make the able man more able.
Speaker 1:So you don't want to give things away to people for free, like the whole bridge, because honestly, we've been here a while and it just isn't appreciated, and then you get people who actually resent you for that. It's even in OCA data when you're looking at stats and stuff, but anyway.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I definitely agree that there should be a fee, but you've got to take into consideration what's happening now in this world where people are I mean, it's a joke when it comes to, I mean here in South Africa, just as an example people are getting degrees and they're not able to find work. So, all of those things need to be taken into consideration as well.
Speaker 2:Very much so, and that's the thing is. In independent Scientology, auditing is, at least by our standards, on the prices that we have, and everything Auditing is appropriately priced for what you're getting In the church. I mean, you know, a life repair is $10,000, sometimes 12. On average Ours is $3,500. So you know, I mean you can expect to get. We have people that we see on Facebook and other places that contact us and they're, you know, is there any way we can do it at this price or that price? You know, can you do it in payments? Every time we do it in payments something goes wrong and it's very much like, you know, you got to have some skin in the game in order to get you to the end of the finish line, type of thing, but it isn't near as much as it is in the church.
Speaker 1:And just so we're clear when you mean payments, it's more like like bottom dollar kind of thing, rather than, you know, average.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know it takes a lot of training, it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of training and people tend not to understand that it took decades for the training that I have and how much time it goes into that. We're training other auditors and everything like that, and it's it's your spiritual eternity that's on the line here, and you want somebody that knows what they're doing and how they're doing it, and they should be able to keep their lights on as well.
Speaker 2:But with the church it's the opposite thing, where it just puts you in the hole so much that you're constantly having a present time problem as to how much things are going to cost and how am I going to make it and meet and all this stuff. We don't do that.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a really good thing, because now more than ever, I think people need a hand.
Speaker 2:Very much so, and you know we also have scholarships, that for people that want to train as auditors and want to, or living as auditors and things like that. You know we're always looking for more auditors to work at AOGP. We have more business that we can handle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so everybody take this as an official, putting it out there, like if you're an auditor and you would like to join AOGP, contact us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, drop us a line and we'll give you the information on it. Make sure your tech is good and everything like that, and we'll keep our exchange with you in abundance and you can make a great living at the same time, because we've got more PCs than we do audit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yes, yes. Okay, question two, and just excuse the noise in the background. We have renovations going on, so we've tried to keep it as low sound as possible, but it's obviously just not happening. Okay, question two. Why do you think the church is failing?
Speaker 2:They're not applying LRH policy. They're not applying LRH tech. He says in numerous, almost countless places that if you don't do these things the way that he says now, it isn't because he says it. That's not the point. It is because these are hard one facts.
Speaker 2:Policy is policy typically because there was a mistake that was made and policy was adopted in order to make sure that these things didn't happen again. And when they found successful actions and they put them in there and everything. If you do these things and you deliver the tech the way it's supposed to be delivered, if you deliver the tech with the policy and you treat people the way they should be treated, then you will have a thriving org like we do. This is something the church doesn't do anymore. I have had so many people in the last year come to us from the church and go. I just couldn't do it anymore and they were there six weeks, four weeks, two weeks.
Speaker 2:This is why these orgs are empty and now they're just a real estate acquisition firm with a front as a religious activity. They've just become a real estate company, basically getting other people to pay for these buildings and then saying, oh, we've got a church, and then they charge rent to the orgs, and that's the other thing. Nobody on staff gets rewarded for what they do 40, 60, 80, 100 hours a week, and they're making chump change because the church sees it all. I mean it's human trafficking. There's, by definition, and that's why too, because if the staff isn't winning, why in the world, when you look at them as examples, why in the world would you want to be like that?
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:That's the issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, for real. I mean, I've personally experienced some of that myself and it's just it's. It's quite crazy the exploitation that goes on and all of that. Question three have you personally been attacked by the church in any way? Once okay, and.
Speaker 2:That I know of right that we know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was gonna.
Speaker 2:I can't, I can't, I can't confirm or deny it. I suspected it was twice.
Speaker 1:Yeah but once and obviously that you know there's this I Don't know things, things that have maybe happened online and stuff. Do you think you know people who come out and say you know, are they like moles or whatever you call them?
Speaker 2:well, the one time when I went to see Marty Rath, but down in down on Gulf Shores, they took pictures of me at the gas station and they posted them on on the duplicate website of his and All that and they called my dad's neighbor and they called my mom directly. When I was there, my mom, my mom, let him have it tried to third-party her on me and all this stuff and you know it didn't go anywhere. Nothing, nothing severe. Ever since they they lost the lawsuit to another independent Group. They really have a mess with anybody directly. They do it in much more covert means which would then lead to, you know, the the attacks that we've had on social media and stuff like that years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah years ago, but it's been quiet for Like almost four years, five years now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, I mean not much.
Speaker 1:I think it's probably because we're not, as they say, feeding the trolls. You know, I think I think, before Maybe being a little inexperienced as an organization, we would, I Guess, try and defend, but you know what that kind of makes a person look almost more guilty. Yeah so then it's like well, what do you do if you say nothing? It's a withhold, you know, but I think right now we've we've just focused on flourishing and prospering, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, if you, if you don't, granted being this, it doesn't go anywhere. We've got an actual Mean that we posted a couple times throughout the years that LRH says that is easy. You just don't acknowledge it.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it's, it's pretty much just come to a it's a lot more higher tone things that we can acknowledge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we're too busy to have to deal with CN theta All right.
Speaker 1:In what ways could indie Scientology be better? That's a loaded question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Well.
Speaker 1:And we can include our orgs as well, obviously.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2:Scientology as a whole indie Scientology as a whole. Well, that that's. That's something that I I've I've probably touched on in a couple of podcasts very, very briefly, but one of the things that we're looking at right now is is that if, if something isn't done About the number of auditors in the independent field by the time I'm looking for a new body, I would say within the next 30 years, maybe less, and I could be and I'm not talking about my, my, my demise and picking up another body, but I'm just saying, based off of the number of auditors that we've lost Just in the last two or three years. The numbers are dwindling and you're looking at a lot of these guys that were the original class 8s, class 12s. You know there aren't, there aren't many. We've lost Seven in the last three years who were highly trained auditors.
Speaker 2:Yeah some were more in tech than others and and these, these were all top guys. I mean, they weren't class 4s, these were class 8s, class 9s, class 12. You know that's. That's the the.
Speaker 2:The thing that needs to be fixed the most is is there isn't. There isn't enough of us and there isn't anybody doing doing anything. And I would, I would love, I would love somebody to say okay, aogp, we're gonna give you a run for your money. We're gonna do an online course where we're gonna have an AI Qualifications library that you can talk to that has all those LRH's lectures and tech volumes and OEC volumes and anything under the sun that LRH ever wrote. You can go in there and you can search for anything and find it immediately and have a conversation With it like chat GPT. We have that. We audit online. We're one of the one of the few, if not the only, that does that. But the thing that needs that needs to happen is that we we need to be a cohesive unit, not a bunch of individuals Individuating and all of that stuff and and Nobody wanting to share folders. You know, if somebody decides they want to go somewhere else or they want in-person auditing that type of thing, it's very, very secular.
Speaker 2:Yeah and individuated, and that's that's the thing that needs to be fixed the most and I've wanted for years in Queens talked about this too Is that we need to have a retreat, and we I'd like to do a retreat where Not only do people come just just for AOGP, but we have other auditors that come and everything and we we do our continuing education like chiropractors and dentists and doctors do and stuff like that, and we do heading and clean up and all of this stuff. At the retreat, we people get to mix and meet and there needs, you know, because there's there's a difference between Virtuality, online Scientology, independent Scientology, and where you get to press the flesh and you need to get to talk to people and you get to have a nice meal with people or nice meals and spend time with them and sit around a fire and just get an ARC. Yeah, that's the thing that's missing. Is this the ARC that you have with a third dynamic?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the independent Scientology doesn't have there's a lot of this Backstabbery and and nattering and and all this stuff, and nobody trusts anybody else on all the stuff. That's the big thing. Is the trust. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm not really sure why that is. You know, is it because we know, um? You know, is it because we know that you know a whole bunch of stuff, like you know, because I'm obviously I feel like you know, scientologists are here and then you know, everybody else not trying to, you know, individuate, but like we do know a lot about the workings of the world, the human mind, etc. So you know that puts us at a bit of an advantage. So I don't know if that Makes people already wary. You know, like, because of things like over-it's and with all it's, like as soon as somebody is being critical, for example, I'm like you've done something to me, haven't you? You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the, the, the withhold stands out, you know, because they're. You know, like Ellarade says, the hardest thing to spot is a missing, this. When's the last time we heard, yeah, had any direct communication from any other independent Scientology auditor or an organization? I can't remember. Probably it was probably it when it was a, a warning about a particular auditor From ronsorg I'm not naming any names. This was like four years ago. They sent this out about this, this particular person. That's the only communication I've gotten from anybody since four years.
Speaker 2:You know, and, and that that's you know. It should, it should be that we're all in common and this, the. The other thing that needs to be dispelled is, on a planet that has almost 8 billion people and there's 200,000 people plus born every day, I remember you and I sat down and figured it out how many people are born and how many, how many bodies die On a planet. That that many people. There's no scarcity of pre clears, yeah, and I think that that's the silliest notion of all is. Is that there's this covetous yeah, uh, about, you know, the scarcity of PCs and everything like that, and you know we all need to work together here. It shouldn't be this individuation thing and withholding this and stuff like that. That's what I think needs to to be fixed is that we're all on the same page.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I completely agree with that. What should a person look out for when joining an independent org or auditor?
Speaker 2:Well, again, you don't know what you don't know. The hardest thing, this spot is the missing, this there's certain things that you should, you should know, and that there are red flags. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna from it as a as a technical terminal. I'm just gonna say what these things are. Did they ask you for a personality test? What personality test are they using? Are they using the original personality test? Are they using the change personality test that the church uses?
Speaker 2:Refer back to our interview with mark schreffler about how the church changed their OCA's. We don't use. If you have an OCA from the church and you come to us, we'll ask you to do another OCA with the original questions, because it's it's an incorrect test that the church uses. If, if an auditor in the field isn't using an OCA to program your folder, that's a red flag. If an auditor isn't doing a Dfp interview with you on the meter, that's a red flag. They're just saying, well, I'm just gonna give you this and we're just gonna go in session and they don't do any setups, that's another red flag. And and if they're not consistently doing dfp interviews, if they don't do a test, yeah when you attest a certain action, how long is?
Speaker 2:is what it, what it is that you're doing as a PC? You, you don't know these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah you just, you just have to believe them Openly that that what it is that they're doing. But these are some of the things. Are you getting? You getting certificates For you what you're doing? That's another thing. We're backlogged on certificates by about six months and I need to get those out to everybody. But we do give certificates and we don't let anybody pass go. When they do a course, they have to do the course Holy and fully. This independent Scientology, at least from our standpoint. We're trying to do what Hubbard said, and that is you do the check sheet, you do the right way. We give you the checkouts. We make sure your clay demos are done right. Make sure you do your demos right. We make sure that you are a product. That is what assert a certification is for and, as far as auditing goes, is the same thing if you don't have it. We're gonna keep working on there.
Speaker 1:Yeah and uh, would you say that PTSness plays a role. You know, like if, if, if you've got an OCA and then says PTS, like, what, like, can the? Can the person just go ahead and do any auditing, or is there?
Speaker 2:no, no, I mean and I've mentioned this to another podcast before as well is that Preco of it? It was about, and you'd probably agree with me because you did most of our OCA's you were looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of about 65 70 percent of the people that we got OCA's from. They were PTS post COVID it's about 90, 95.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's crazy and it has been ever since. And the thing is is that if you're auditing a person with a graft that says their PTS which is below 32 on the D column, whatever gains they get in auditing are going to be rollercoastery or lost because they're still PTS. So the first thing that has to be handled is is, if you're getting sick, you've got a low D on your OCA, you're under suppression and you want auditing. That's the first thing we need to handle, along with a couple of other things, and we always look into that. Because the thing is is your money, is your money and you want to get what you want to get for your money?
Speaker 2:And that means that things have to be done. Your, your interiorization, exteriorization, has to be checked. Do you have any outlets? Are you PTS? You have out rudiments, these sorts of things, but I mean PTS. This has to be handled before you pass, go on anything, otherwise your auditing gains are going to be stable and you're going to be like well, what did I do auditing, for I'm still sick, I'm still unhappy. So we, we always do that. When somebody new comes to us and we get a PTS graph, we suggest that they do the ups and downs course, and they apply that material and then retest them. I don't know of anybody else in the field that does that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't think of anyone who has been doing that either, especially like I mean, it's honestly mind blowing when I think to myself that some people just don't use an OCA, that that that needs to be in so that you can see if the person is PTS. Otherwise they're just going to go around in circles. You're going to waste your time, you're going to waste your PCs, money and time. You know it's, it's insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like. It's like you know, being a pilot and not looking at the weather report before you, you, you, you submit your flight plan to the FAA and the United States, you know. I mean, you have to do these things because you don't want to go on choppy weather, especially if you're not trained to do that. So you need to know before you go. There's an actual reference the CS series that talks about that know before you go. That's why you do the interviews, that's why you do the OCA. You get the person set up for it so that their, their, their wins are stable, their gains are stable and they're certified on their courses and they and they know what they know.
Speaker 2:I mean, we're not doing this, we're not doing this to make money. We're doing this because we, we care and we love the subject of independent Scientology and we want people to take this and we want them to use it with other people. We want them to use it right and we want them to have the gains. And somebody say I want what she's having, I want that. That's, that's the kind of person I want to be Right, and so that's that's why it's important to make sure that there are no red flags and you're. Anybody is welcome to ask us. They don't have to tell us who their auditor is. We don't even need to know. Yeah, but if you want to ask You're probably even better that we don't that.
Speaker 1:there's no doubt in their mind that we're being biased.
Speaker 2:That's right, and and that way it's sort of a double blind thing. And you can say well, this is what they're doing with me. And then I can say this reference, this reference, this reference, this reference applies to this, that's right. And take it up with LRH. You're not taking it up with me. All I am and and and all we are is we're just, we just know where these things are and we can say this is what you're supposed to do. Give them these references. We're not saying we're taking you over, we don't want to take you over from that person, but get them to apply those, those references and and do what they need to do with you. And if they don't and they won't well then you need to make a decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then I also wanted to ask when it comes to an auditor's personality, what are some of the things that would stand out as bad things? So obviously I know that you know if an auditor a violin session, invalidates, evaluates, is aggressive, frustrated talks about their own case and session all of that stuff on no nose. Is there anything else that you could include in that?
Speaker 2:Well, whether in or outside of session, yeah, like LRH says, the only two things that can go wrong really in a session are either out TRs or bad metering.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And you know, having their basics and everything obviously helps as well. You know if, if, if their TRs are out, if an auditor yells at you which we've had many people come to us, and I'm not naming any names on who that auditor or those auditors were. I mean, you were a.
Speaker 1:BC yourself, and I think I remember you telling me a story about somebody shouting at you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's actually you know in a podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm not going to name any names you go back and find in the podcast.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that happened, that happened to me as a PC, okay, so, and you know I'm it's no big deal to me at all, but that's that's the type of thing is.
Speaker 2:Is your auditor should be professionals, they should apply the professionalism PL and the art series one on being a professional, and if they're they're unprofessional, then you might want to let them know Again. You know the. The solution to the problem is further communication, not less, but L or H, and you need to look at the auditor's code and you need to look at your code of honor and everything like that. And sometimes you don't know until you've paid them and you've gotten in session and something isn't right and and anybody is welcome to give me a scenario and you know I'll give them the references and and we'll help them with that. But you just need NT NTRs. They need to be at least at strong interest when they go in session with their PC and if you ask them for references and they don't want to give you references, that's a huge red flag, huge, probably the biggest red flag of all.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's, some right there.
Speaker 1:Why would somebody want to join an independent org above joining the church?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, simply put, money is a factor. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Self determinism.
Speaker 2:Self determinism. Do they grant you beingness? What's their tone, level and the way that they they approach you, you know? Are they, are they in strong interest? Are they granting you beingness? Are they being friendly? Are they pushing you around? Are they asking for you, for your credit card number and your banking details with in the first visit? We don't do that, elevator. There's no policy on that, you know. And again, they need to be able to show you what the policies are and they should not interpret those policies for you. We have all of the unchanged policies and ACOBs and you can always come to us and we'll give you access to our QAL library and we'll show you the references that are in question and you can compare the changed ones to the unchanged ones. And that's that's the main thing that LRH has.
Speaker 2:If it isn't written, it isn't true. And as as an example, back in I was probably around 2001, 2002, the International Association of Scientologists, which is a separate organization from the Church of Scientology. Most people don't know that they, for decades they've gone around saying you know, we need money, we need money, we need money. The suppressives are going to shut the church down tomorrow and if we don't get the money. This is the only thing that's going to stop this. And I just flat out told them in the hallway on the way to the Academy. I said look, what you're doing is suppressive. You guys have been doing this for decades, ever since I was a little kid. I remember I was there with my, my dad. You can't do this sort of thing and and expect people to to feel safe because the IAS doesn't do anything. It just takes money and that money goes towards you know who.
Speaker 2:And if it isn't written, it isn't true. You show me the documentation that says that this is, this is going to happen and what's the proof on this? Don't take any verbal data from the church. Don't at all. Get it in writing. Get them to show you. And the same thing with independent, like we said, with auditors and things like that. Get it in writing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean they're almost, in a way, like merchants of chaos, almost while taking money for it. Yeah, that's covert covert hostility.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is what it is Gaslighting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what requirements, if any, are necessary to join? I know that there's things like illegal PCs and PTSD et cetera.
Speaker 2:Well, as far as modern, like, for example, psychiatric drugs and things like that, the church just says nope because they look at you as a legal threat. We're not that way that much. There's very few psychiatric drugs that we can't get you off of. Typically it's four to six weeks that we ask you to get off of them before you get auditing or before you become a student, and that's really hard for some people.
Speaker 1:And then there's also the pure for drug rundown, and although is that for that as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they should do a purification rundown and a Scientology drug rundown as their first actions after that to get this stuff out of their system. We've had several public who can't get off of their ADHD meds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, adderall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, adderall is the primary culprit on that, and it's very, very difficult for them to get off because it's highly, highly addictive. And that's one of the biggest problems that we face with people is that they want help but they have to get down off of it gradientally. Do a purif, get a Scientology drug rundown. Some people can't do a purif Not everybody has to do a purif but at least the Scientology drug rundown to get this stuff handled and objectives as well would be highly recommended in that situation.
Speaker 1:So if we can handle it, if the church doesn't want to do it with people, that's kind of strange, because then that's kind of like invalidating things like the purif and the drug rundown, that it's like not working if they can, but they just don't want to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, they really don't want to help those people. They want to help people that they want to help, and Isn't there like a Narcanon or something like that?
Speaker 1:Is that also something?
Speaker 2:There is Narcanon. But Narcanon is, as far as I'm concerned, is non-functional. I have heard so many horror stories. I even know and we have public on our lines who actually owned their own branch of Narcanon and they were taken out by the church. Yeah, so you know, I mean you just have to look at it and you look at the statistics and go, okay, there are a lot more people out there that can be helped if you want to. Yeah, but it's also true that what Ron says is we want to help those people who want to help themselves and if you don't want to get off of it, there isn't a lot we can do for you. We'll try, we'll help you and, believe you me, we have tried.
Speaker 2:I've sent emails and emails and emails and emails to people to try and help them with that, and a lot of times they don't get back to us at all because they know they can't get off of it. And if they wanted to come to us in person, definitely, definitely, we can get them off of that or all, for example. But there are so many over the counter and so many prescribed drugs by psychiatrists that pretty much just stop a person right where they're at and they're PTS because they're on these. I mean, you know what I'm talking about. So it's a situation where we'll help you. We won't say no. The church would say no. That's pretty much what it comes down to. But you have to be willing to put in the work.
Speaker 1:What requirements, if any, are necessary to join. Oh no, I already did that one. What would you say to someone who has reservations about Inesontology?
Speaker 2:Read a book. Read a book. Probably the negative stuff on Reddit is one of the worst ESMB, that type of a thing. If Hubbard was a bad guy he wouldn't have written all. I mean, he's the most prolific author on planet Earth. There isn't anybody that's written more stuff than he has and it's not gobbledygook. Most people that criticize Scientology, the subject and or independent Scientology I mean you know the church because there's the criticism it gets because of it's not doing what Hubbard said to do. For the most part there are a lot of wonderful people that are still in the church. They're just PTSD David and his cabbage. But the point is, is that, what was your? What was the question? Again, I want to make sure I'm answering it.
Speaker 1:What would you say to somebody who has reservations reservations about Inesontology?
Speaker 2:Yeah, is look and see what he says about. Whatever your questions are, email us, we'll send you the references. Read fundamentals of thought. Read a new slant on life. Read the way to happiness. Super easy, you just look at it and go. It makes sense. These are the things I should do for myself and my first dynamic for me Listen to the 4,861 lectures that we have.
Speaker 1:On. Soundcloud yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:You can see, this guy cared about humanity and the future of mankind. He wasn't just doing it to make money. Nobody, I mean. He didn't have to write all this stuff. He didn't have to do these lectures to do that. He could have done it a lot more simply, but he did it because it was a research line and he was trying to perfect this over 50 years.
Speaker 1:For me I just wanted to go back to what you said about the black PR that's out there about Scientology as a whole and independent Scientology and Auditors etc Is that if you look at the tone of the people that are saying these things, you can clearly see that it is completely reactive, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that anything that's reactive isn't necessarily the truth. So if people are talking from analytical understanding and they're trying to put the pieces together or analyze the situation, etc. Then you can say, okay, well, that makes sense, that makes sense. But most of these people they're aggressive and they're reinforced, which means they're critical. Yeah Right.
Speaker 2:What makes a person critical over its withholds?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:The thing is, is you ask people, what are you basing this off of? What is it that is in writing that backs up what it is that you're saying?
Speaker 1:And they will just go in circles around it and you can't get an actual answer from them, because they're not dealing with fact, they're dealing with the reactive mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just baseless opinion. You say that type of a thing and I've taken people on on Reddit directly and said look, I know and I've been involved in this subject for almost 40 years and I know by what you're saying you do not know anything about this subject. Go back and school yourself and read a book and come back and tell me, after you've tried to apply it to your life, that it doesn't work. I know you know it works. Try it. Until then I'm not going to deal with you anywhere, because you don't know about what you're talking about One iota. It's just baseless opinion on top of opinion on top of opinion. Get it in writing from people if they're saying something critical, if they can't give you proof that it was from Hubbard or something else and verified that the person had the authority and knew what they were talking about and had the facts. Otherwise, it's worthless information and that person is just critical.
Speaker 1:But the sad thing is that, even if I mean sure, publicly people would make a butt out of themselves. But getting a person to change his mind, even if even when all the facts are presented to them, is nearly impossible because the reactive mind just wants to be right. I mean, well, the Thayton wants to be right and uses the reactive mind to make them right, and it's sad.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, you run into the same thing when you try and tell people about who are in the corporate church and you try and tell them what's going on. When I did that and I left the church in 2004, every single last person that I thought was my friend abandoned me because they had too much to lose. It couldn't be true. And here we are 20 years later. Since 2004, when I left the church, 20 years later, most not all there's only two auditors that I know of that were friends of mine Most of those people that I tried to get out of the church are now out out. They're not in the independent field and they're not in the corporate church of Scientology. They are out of Scientology altogether.
Speaker 1:It's like a bad memory for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an engram because they've been made wrong. They saw things they couldn't handle it. There was no justice and instead and one of these people blew me away this guy, this friend of mine, started CCHR Citizens' Commissions on Human Rights Against the Psychiatrists for the church. He is out out of the church. Another guy that I was on course with, who is the HES at Tampa Oregon, saw so many heinous wrongnesses on his post at Tampa Ward. When I contacted him on Facebook and wanted to get together with him, he said, yeah, come down and visit me, don't bring your meter when his wife was a classified auditor and a good one, a really good one out out. This is the kind of thing that happens when people aren't able to handle the wrongnesses because the upper management doesn't want them to handle the wrongnesses, because it was in upper management's favor and they had to commit the over. It's to be the grist in the mill. It really pisses me off.
Speaker 1:I think for some of those people I have seen where even the independent field has some really nasty people in it who are just incredibly self-important and it's like their way or the highway and they don't give you. I mean, just because they're outside of the church doesn't mean they don't have that church mentality.
Speaker 2:So that's true, you see it a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so.
Speaker 2:We don't do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some of these people that have left and they're like out out may have seen that as the scene and just been like you know well. I'm good.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and one of the things that I was told by one of my mentors is is, look, a lot of the people that you're gonna get are people the church couldn't handle, and there's a reason. They're in the field and they're not in the church. Now, you know, those reasons could be many, but the church can't handle a lot of people because they're not using the TACA probe really. So that leaves a pretty wide margin or who you can help and who you can't help. Yes, there are some psychotics that the church has sent our way and other people's way to cause harm. There are other people who just want help and they couldn't get it in the church and they were wrong More often than not. That's what it is and you can clean that up. We're happy to do a free ARC break session. You got a theta meter on your end for us to do it. Or we can handle it with just communication, with semantics, conditions and stuff, and indicate the bypass chart just with two-way column. We can do that as well.
Speaker 1:So you have it. There's an offer. There's some controversies about Scientology as a whole. Thoughts.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:We're talking almost in line of parasyntology and obviously not giving away the stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the confidential stuff and everything.
Speaker 1:We had a podcast on that In fact, you could even say, like why are things confidential, or was that in another podcast?
Speaker 2:Well, it wasn't another podcast, but it's worth mentioning that there's a fundamental that we try to operate off of is that just because you can doesn't mean you should. But the opposite side of that is, because I can, I will. Okay. And there's a fine line on self-determinism, self-control. As far as looking at upper level materials and things like that and being let out into the public, that falls squarely on David Miscavige letting that happen, and it's a good thing. We made lemonade out of lemons on that and that's why we can deliver what we deliver. But the other side of it is is that you need to be fair to yourself and you need to do it on a gradient. One of the big controversies in the churches that you people look at all the upper level material oh, that's bullshit, all that stuff. Well, of course it is because you're not set up for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it would be like showing a five-year-old child a rocket science, you know, or chemistry on a Not real to them, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not real to them and you have to do things on a gradient and if you're set up properly, I would stake my life on what Hubbard says is true. If you do it the way that he says to do it, you will get the gains that he says you will get. I have no reservation on that and I stake my reputation on it, or Org's reputation on it, period. And this is the thing why people have such a problem with the corporate church of Scientology and LRH says it If you don't deliver what's promised, people aren't gonna stay. That's why these Org's are empty, and part of delivering what's promised is granting people being this letting them be self-determined, not giving them wrong indications with OCA's that have changed questions, not changing the f-end to a three-swing f-end, making them pay for things that you screwed up on. We don't do that.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:I mean these are all important things in charging them outrageous rates that are completely outreality to them on what they can get for these things. These are all things you don't do what you're supposed to do. They're not gonna stick around. Two years or less is the turnaround for most people that get into the corporate church of Scientology. Maybe, maybe 3% of those people stick around beyond that and those are the people with the money who get the A++ service from the church because they're a whale type of a thing. But other than that, if you stay more than two years, it's uncommon because of the way that they treat people. And that's the biggest thing is, you wanna treat people the way you wanna be treated and they don't do that.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna TR through this. There's some controversies about Scientology as a whole. So when it comes to some confidential data and stuff like some confidential data and stuff, like I wanna say, yeah, okay, nevermind, we'll just skip that one.
Speaker 2:Well, the controversies, a lot of the controversy surrounds the upper levels.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. And I wanna say, but I can't say because yeah, obviously.
Speaker 2:Well, and the controversy is this the reason why it's confidential is because it's confidential for a reason okay, and you can't explain away the bottom end of the bridge from the top end of the bridge. Pierre Athea told me that and it is absolutely true, because it is a gradient the more charge you remove off the case, the more the person's awareness increases, and we're gonna have a podcast about the awareness scale here within the next week, talking about the awareness scale. If you're not aware that these things are going on, it's going to seem ridiculous and completely unreal and you're gonna think these guys are just nuts. But I promise you, if you do it correctly, the gains and he says this, it is completely unreal to somebody at the lower end of the bridge the gains that are available and completely possible If you do the tech correctly, you don't skip anything, you don't quickie anything and you do it right. This is why there's controversy surrounding the church is because they don't deliver what's promised, and that's why there's so much controversy, because people go and look at the upper level stuff and they go oh it's. You know all this there's and I'm gonna be blunt here and we're gonna have a podcast about this with Quentin the next podcast.
Speaker 2:There are so many things in the Bible, for example. So many things in the Bible that you could look at and you could say are just as unbelievable and unreal as anything in Scientology OT levels anything. Okay, if you believe there's a man in this guy that's responsible for everything that happens to you and he sacrificed his son, on and on and on and all this stuff. Jesus never said he was the son of God. That was put in there by a Roman emperor after Jesus was dead because they could sell the religion.
Speaker 2:Okay, these are things people need to understand and know. It isn't any more crazy than anything that you find in normal earth religions. I mean, you look at the Indians and the gods that they support and everything. But here's the deal we respect. We respect a person's viewpoint on what their religious beliefs are. The Church of Scientology says ah, you can be a Scientologist and you can believe this and all this stuff, but you better believe they're gonna invalidate and evaluate you for that really quick. Because all Scientology Scientology the subject does is it enhances your awareness of whatever it is that you believe. And if you change your mind, great, you don't change your mind and it's true for you. Guess what? That's totally okay, because what's true for you is true for you, and that's the way it needs to be operated off of.
Speaker 1:And we have our final question Do you think independent Scientology will make it and if so, how? Wow.
Speaker 2:Hmm, that's not a happy question.
Speaker 1:Well.
Speaker 2:I'll answer it.
Speaker 1:It could have been yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, there's two directions that it can go.
Speaker 2:It can continue on in the direction that it is and that there isn't anybody out there outside of us trying to make this stuff as available and cheaply, if not pro bono for people to get more auditors trained, because every day there are less and less and less auditors on this planet.
Speaker 2:The most valuable beings per LRH on the planet are auditors, and I'm not just saying people that audit other people. What needs to be understood is if you wanted to make a cleared planet now to me I don't think that it's terribly real to make a cleared planet in my lifetime. It would be if you had one person take responsibility for one other person and you just did that. You could have a cleared planet in six months to a year if people did that. That is one way that things could go positive, because one auditor can only audit about, can only make somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple hundred clears in their lifetime. Given the amount of time that it takes you're looking at 250 to 300 hours to make one clear I mean it's easy to do the math and look at it and go, okay, yeah, things aren't looking real great right now.
Speaker 1:I mean the people that we are helping like. Okay, so we choose the able people. Well, we, not we. But as LRH says, you know.
Speaker 2:Help the able become more able. Yeah, so Less and less able people every day due to all of these over the counter and these prescriptions and things like that. People taking all these medications the bad food. I mean you look at COVID and what it's done with the jab and all of this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so if you have that and you look at the people that we're currently helping, I mean these people are, they have their careers, their dreams, they're, you know, doing that. So it's difficult to see how we can use those kinds of people who are already established and know what they wanna do. You know, obviously, they're done, they're good, they just wanna learn how to be do and have more on their own. So now it's like well, who is left to forward the thing, who is left to make auditors, et cetera?
Speaker 2:Right, right and LLRH says that. You know, as people get older, they start to worry about what they have to come back to you. Are they gonna have Scientology to come back to you? If things don't change and we don't pull off the things that we wanna pull off, I don't think it's gonna be around in 50 or 100 years. I really don't. It'll fall the wayside, like so many other religious philosophies and things like that.
Speaker 2:And that means that you can't just procrastinate. You have to do something. And I'm not saying this from a viewpoint of you know, come, do services with us, pick up a book, start doing something about it, stop putting it off. Because the thing is is that, like he says, you have this brief breath and eternity to do something about this and turn the tides in this universe. And this is it, folks. You need to do something this lifetime. This year it's 2024.
Speaker 2:Now you need to get on the bridge, you need to get trained. 50% of the gains are from training, 50% of the gains are from process. It doesn't take as long as you think it does, it's just a matter. You can go full OT in less than a year and a half to two years from the bottom of the bridge to the top. You can get trained as an auditor in six months time. If you do it full time. You can get trained in a year part time, and that doesn't mean that you have to just go out and audit other people, but it means that you can go out and help other people and you can present Scientology to them and pique their interest and get them involved and do a touch assist with them or something like that, or teach them about the ARC triangle.
Speaker 2:Because that's what needs to be done is people need to be made aware of it. And LRH says don't worry about the degradation of society. The worse society gets, the more people are gonna look for something like Scientology, the subject, or independent Scientology, because they want to better the condition that they're existing in, because things have gotten worse. Scientology will be there for them. They just need to know about it. And the more you know about it and the more you use it, to the degree your dynamics are going to align and you're gonna find that you're gonna be able to survive happier, much more well. You're gonna be a lot more serene and you're gonna be a lot more cause over your life and the cause of other people's lives near you and that you associate.
Speaker 1:So we are really ending this off in a high note.
Speaker 2:Yeah, something can't. It's inspirational. Yeah, something can be done about the situation. It's just a matter of making the decision and just doing it every day, just like you decide to go to the gym. It's really no different. Spend an hour a day listening to a lecture in traffic or whatever. Start getting this information, Take a course, get some auditing, do self-analysis it's free. Do some book one. Quinn did 400 hours of book one with his roommate.
Speaker 2:Wow 400, I was actually over 400 hours. I mean it can be done and that's free. You can practically go clear just with that if you want to. I mean it takes a lot of dedication and there's some things that need to be cleaned up in between, but I mean the options are there, it's just a matter of deciding to do it. It's just that decision.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well, I don't have any more questions.
Speaker 2:All right, so we are at the 60 minute mark with this podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. Thank you, lisa, for doing the interview and we will get this up and on the net to all of the podcast services later this afternoon. We hope you enjoyed it, and for myself, jonathan Burke and for Lisa Burke. We'll talk to you soon with Quentin on our next podcast.
Speaker 1:Bye 短片.