Navigating the intricacies of personal faith and organized religion can be akin to walking a tightrope, a balancing act I know all too well. Our conversation illuminates the path to spiritual autonomy for those entangled in the Corporate Church of Scientology's stringent grasp. We unravel the threads between the institution's control and the untarnished core of L. Ron Hubbard's teachings, guiding listeners through the murky waters of ethics within the Church, and the empowering journey towards individualism.
The gravitational pull of the Church of Scientology's dogma is strong, but the orbit of personal freedom is within reach. Quenton and I share candid experiences of misjudgments and the shadow of undue influence cast by the Church's ethics officers. We paint a vivid picture of the transformation that awaits when one steps away from the confines of the Church, embracing the liberating embrace of independent practice. The conversation steers towards the significant financial and emotional relief found in alternative Scientology practices that align with Hubbard's original vision, providing a beacon of hope for those seeking a more authentic spiritual path.
As the episode draws to a close, we reflect on the profound personal growth that unfolds from the courageous decision to forge one's own spiritual journey. The narrative of alienation from the Church is counterbalanced with tales of renewal and the formation of genuine connections, unshackled from the conditional relationships of the past. Our dialogue serves as a testament to the resilience of the human spirit, encouraging you to honor your quest for truth and embrace the boundless potential that lies beyond the Church's domain. Join us as we affirm that the quest for enlightenment is a personal endeavor, one not confined by the walls of any institution.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
Take our personality test and get a free evaluation: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHJQ6DY
Navigating the intricacies of personal faith and organized religion can be akin to walking a tightrope, a balancing act I know all too well. Our conversation illuminates the path to spiritual autonomy for those entangled in the Corporate Church of Scientology's stringent grasp. We unravel the threads between the institution's control and the untarnished core of L. Ron Hubbard's teachings, guiding listeners through the murky waters of ethics within the Church, and the empowering journey towards individualism.
The gravitational pull of the Church of Scientology's dogma is strong, but the orbit of personal freedom is within reach. Quenton and I share candid experiences of misjudgments and the shadow of undue influence cast by the Church's ethics officers. We paint a vivid picture of the transformation that awaits when one steps away from the confines of the Church, embracing the liberating embrace of independent practice. The conversation steers towards the significant financial and emotional relief found in alternative Scientology practices that align with Hubbard's original vision, providing a beacon of hope for those seeking a more authentic spiritual path.
As the episode draws to a close, we reflect on the profound personal growth that unfolds from the courageous decision to forge one's own spiritual journey. The narrative of alienation from the Church is counterbalanced with tales of renewal and the formation of genuine connections, unshackled from the conditional relationships of the past. Our dialogue serves as a testament to the resilience of the human spirit, encouraging you to honor your quest for truth and embrace the boundless potential that lies beyond the Church's domain. Join us as we affirm that the quest for enlightenment is a personal endeavor, one not confined by the walls of any institution.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
Take our personality test and get a free evaluation: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHJQ6DY
Hi and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast with AOGP. I am Jonathan Burke. My co-host here is the spirited and in the dark Quentin Stroud. They've been having electrical problems in the Philippines the last few days, so he's by candlelight, but he's here. He's here, so let's give him an A plus for effort on that, this episode. Well, quentin, I'll let you introduce it and you're going to be the prompter and I'm going to give the answers.
Speaker 2:This episode, I believe, is something that we really need as independent Scientologists, as those who study and practice Scientology the subject, it seems to me like there has to be a right way of doing things right, and we've done many podcasts about the ideal scene for independent Scientology as a category, as organizations, and the way we operate and function. But before we get into all that, let's go back a little bit and I want to ask you a question how does one leave the Church of Scientology? How does one escape? How does one get out? How does one leave the Church of Scientology? Is there a right way to do this? Talk to me.
Speaker 1:Well, you've got the Code of Honor, the Scientology Code of Honor. If you're in the Church of Scientology and you've been in there for more than two years, chances are you've done some things that you feel really good about and you really like the tech, and that's the thing, and that's the differentiation that needs to be made is that there is the corporate Church of Scientology and there is Scientology the subject, like we brought up in the last podcast the other day. And that's the distinction you have to make when you're looking at your Code of Honor and you're looking at a doubt condition. Maybe you've seen people behave in ways that you think are less than stellar as Scientologists in the corporate Church of Scientology as far as the way that they've treated you, the way they've treated others. We could spend a whole podcast on all of the outpoints, the things that shouldn't be happening in the corporate Church of Scientology, but that goes beyond the scope of this. So let's just say you're in doubt and a condition of doubt and you're in a condition of doubt because you know that the tech works and you've gotten a lot from it, but you're not happy with the way your experience is going either with people.
Speaker 1:And like LRH says. He says you know, if you ever have any problem with the tech, it's not the tech, it's the personalities involved, and that's a direct quote. So it's not the tech. So I'd like to indicate to our listeners who are on the fence in the church that it isn't the tech. The tech works. We have volumes and volumes and volumes of back research, a policy that supports this tech and how it works and what you have to do and everything.
Speaker 1:And this is the indication the church has gone off the rails. It went off the rails long before you ever got in to most of our listeners, and if you've been in for decades, you know what we're talking about. You've seen the subtle erosion of changes to where things are nowhere near what they looked like when you got into the church. And that is the thing that David M Cavage counts on the most is that there is this slow erosion. It's like a mountain turning into a desert over millions upon millions of years, and so you don't really see these changes because they're so subtle. And you get these, these events where they say the typist is the one that that caused all the errors in the books and that LRH never read the book.
Speaker 1:I mean, really, do they really think you're that dumb? So you've come to realize this. You've been in for decades and you probably have friends, many, many friends. You probably have business associates, you've got family that's in it. You've got all of the money that you have tied up on account in the church and these things. There's a few things you have to look at. Can you do this? Can you leave the church? And can you continue on an independent Scientology, with us or with anybody else? It's your choice. If you don't get help from us, get help somewhere, as they say on TV.
Speaker 1:But that doesn't mean that you should leave Scientology. There's nothing wrong with Scientology, the subject and you have to get off the off the doubt condition and the only reason that you get hung up in a doubt condition per LRH is the hang up a doubt policy letter which says you're either you've either got false data or your PTS to the church these are. You've got both and you don't know what to do and you don't know where to look and you've found this podcast on Google or Bing or Yahoo or Duck Duck Go or something like that, and you're looking for an answer. I've been wanting to do this sort of thing for a really, really long time, and I just want you to know that the tech works, the wins that you had are real, and that the church itself, the corporate church, has gone astray and has been taken over long, long ago, because it is a way out.
Speaker 1:It may not have all the solutions Scientology, the subject or the church but it has a way to give you the ability to find the answers that you seek, that you can't find in Scientology as an operating date nor an OT. Now what you need to decide is what's the greatest good for the greatest number of your dynamics To continue on in this and suffer through this miserable experience, or get out? Don't tell anybody, because LRA says it is an ability to withhold okay, withhold from your friends, your business partners, your family and stuff. Try an online course, get in touch with us, get in touch with somebody else in the field. That sounds like they could do what you need them to do as an auditor or train you or whatever. But I assure you that anything that you can do in the church, we can do better outside of the church without making you wrong, using ethics as a make-wrong ethics as a personal thing.
Speaker 1:99% of the people that come to us have been mishandled with ethics. That's one of the biggest reasons why people leave. That is because you have what is called an outlist. That's an auditing term. You've been given an item and that item is whatever your outlist is, but it makes you feel bad and it might even make you sick and you have to look at this and go okay, I need to get some handling, we'll help you. If you want to get handling on that and you've had some really bad ethics handling, we have the tech to do it. Get you a Theta Meter, we'll do a free handling, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Can I ask a question about that, because that's good to know that a person can start to feel like they want to disconnect or separate or just kind of go a different direction because they've had bad ethics handling. Talk to me about that. What does that mean? How does one get handled badly when it comes to ethics? Because if ethics is a personal thing, how is somebody going to handle you and your ethics?
Speaker 1:Well, that's the whole thing is that, for whatever reason, the church has gone off in the direction of the way to control people is to tell them what condition they're in in life. And the church the corporate church, scientology has the viewpoint that they can do no wrong because they're working harder than you are. And that is simply not the case. You are a public, the service. Pl states that service is above everything else, and you have to serve a person who has paid for services and you have to give them what's promised.
Speaker 1:This is something the church stopped doing a long time ago because they practically forgotten how to deliver auditor training levels. And people come to us all the time and they're spun in. I know people that have died on the survival rundown because they're delivering a rundown that LRHD didn't even develop and canceled. So as far as the ethics thing goes is when somebody tells you you're doing, let's just say, when you were a kid, for example, your parents said that you weren't trying hard enough in school. How did that make you feel? It made you feel pretty grabby, didn't it? That is a wrong item. Okay, the listing question is what am I doing? Possibly I can't tell you what the listing question, but we're just saying hypothetically what am I doing? Or what am I doing wrong? What am I doing?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:Only the PC knows, because what's true for them is true for them, but it's a wrong item when your parents say you're not doing enough to get your grades up and so they ground you. This is the same phenomena you get when somebody mishandles you with ethics in the church, because the thing your parents did with you is the same thing. It's an ethics thing, it's a wrong indication and wrong indications lead to tremendous amounts of bypass charge and outlist where the person can raise hell like nothing else. Lrh says this and uses that terminology. So what we've found is these bad ethics handlings really bypass a lot of charge. They restimulate the charge but they don't handle it and then it happens again, it happens again, it happens again and it happens again and you get all these weirdnesses that the church does.
Speaker 1:I mean I could tell all kinds of stories that I've had ethics officers yell at me and say you f*****g didn't you when I didn't. That's a wrong item. I've had people an ethics officer at Tampa Org say do you know who I am? I am the ethics officer. And she was German on top of it, with that kind of an accent.
Speaker 1:This whole year than now.
Speaker 2:This you know you have to do what I say.
Speaker 1:I control you in this altitude, horseshit. And this is what people run into and it makes them feel awful because it's in the list.
Speaker 2:It's totally. It's making me laugh, because I remember going to the ethics office multiple times, right, multiple times, and it was typically something going on with my courses being in the academy or something of that nature, and it was just always a thing. It was always a thing, and when I would go to the ethics officer because I had to per you know the thing, go to the ethics officer, and they'd be like you, like what's going on, man? And I'm like, listen, one of the things I remember distinctly was talking to this ethics officer and it was because I had been late. I was continually being late, right, and so of course, you know something's going on, right. And so I go to the ethics office and he was like what's going on? Why, why, why do you keep me late? And I said, let me be clear with you.
Speaker 2:I arrived at exactly the time I intend to. Okay, I said so. Whilst I understand that you have a thing that academy starts at this time, of course starts at this time, what? I totally get that viewpoint. I arrived at exactly the time I intend to, and that will continue to be my stable data. So, unless I can get back on course what we talking about, that was literally the conversation.
Speaker 1:Well, ethics is a personal thing.
Speaker 2:Right. So I don't understand what you could do and or say to me. I'm just talking about myself and I didn't validate anybody else's experience, but I don't know what you can do or say to me. That would make me feel bad about what I did.
Speaker 1:Well, your personality profile per an OSEA is significantly different than other people's. I mean, and on top of that, you're also Leo.
Speaker 2:I'm a Pisces with a Leo rising. Right Pisces with a Leo rising, so so I was, I was, I was boys seven days before LRH.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so there you go. So, and you know these, these, these when, when, when people feel like that, they have, and a lot of people get into the Church of Scientology because they need somebody to follow, they need somebody to tell them what to do, and that's, that's how they get into the message for change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and need for change at the, you know, the lower end of the awareness scale, but you know, on the great chart, just just below the purif on the great chart. So you know, you, you, you need to get out and you need to get a comparable magnitude, a comparable data to get out of the church. And you don't have to tell anybody about it, you just do it on your own, you do it privately, you speak to somebody like us or or any other independent auditor or organization, and you, you find out. Well, what are these guys like? You may need to talk to a couple of different organizations and and get an understanding of what it was, what I was dealing with, what I could be dealing with. Yeah, I could be dealing with what I was dealing with, what I could be dealing with, what I'm, what I'm dealing with, and and look at this and it's really just gone. I mean, I've been out of the church now as of this year, it'll be this. This coming October it'll be 20 years since I've been out of the church, 20 years, and the stories that people tell me every year get more fantastic, in a negative sense, and harder to believe that anybody could ever suffer that for any amount of time.
Speaker 1:And this is what you need to find out is that it's. It's gone so far off the rails. It's. It's that rumor line where you know you have a bunch of people telling a rumor, the, the chain thing and by the end it gets to the, gets to the other end of the person way down on the end, 12 people.
Speaker 1:It's completely different. That's what's happened in the church. That's how far it's gone. It doesn't. It doesn't resemble what I did in 1988, what my dad did in 1973. They're completely different things. They were different in 88. But they were really different in 73. And in 65.
Speaker 1:And you know it depends on and you know it depends on when you got in, what your experience was, and that's why we have all the infighting with a lot of the people outside of the church as far as auditors and things like that is because the realities were so different one when they got trained. This is my reality. This is my reality. This is my reality. Well, right, you know that's. The thing is you just have to get a different reality of what it could be outside of the church. You don't have to tell anybody, you don't have to tell the church that you left and people, scientologists, who may listen to this and go. What it's a withhold? Damn right, it's a withhold. It is a withhold because you can't speak your mind in the church, you can't have an opinion, because you will get retribution for it if you do.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you a question, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Finish the question that's fine, I mean, that's the whole thing is you're training, you're supposed to be getting all this information to be your own person and think for yourself, but they won't let you think for yourself. That's an out point.
Speaker 2:I hear you say that right, I said this to you as we were preparing for this podcast, because I was saying to you that it sounds to me like a lot of the horror stories and a lot of the stuff that we hear and see out there right now. These are people who were either A born into Scientology and, as they grew up and the years progressed or whatever, things totally changed. They were either on staff and got mistreated or had, you know, ED talked to them a certain way or treat them a certain way, or whatever. Or you know the chairman of the board to speak to them a certain way or treat them a certain way, or they were in the C org and they got treated a certain way I haven't really heard about, like a lay person that just comes in off the street, decides to do some courses, decides to kind of start to get their bridge progress or whatever, and they totally like get mishandled.
Speaker 2:Now again, I hear you say it by like poor ethics handling. I think you say that the auditing commands have changed and certain things have changed. That can create a flood, right, but I guess my question is is that if we're talking to the general person that could be listening to this podcast 2024, like, and they say you know what? I started this? It ain't really working for me or I want to do something different. I love the tech, I love what I'm learning, but I don't want to feel like I'm in this system, right, this religious system. What would that person do?
Speaker 1:Walk out and don't come back. We have people do that. We've had numerous, numerous, numerous people do that. There's nothing stopping you. Nobody owns you, nobody controls you and if anybody comes, comes to your door or sends you an email or sends you a letter or whatever, you don't have to respond. It's part of the Scientology Actions. You can choose to communicate or you can choose not to communicate and there's nothing to be afraid of. But they operate off of this draconian.
Speaker 1:We know better than you do and your spiritual eternity is in our hands. And if you slip up, well, I've got news for you. Your spiritual eternity is your spiritual eternity. Nobody can take that away from you. You're not going to lose it and it's more than available in the independent field and it can be done absolutely correctly and more thoroughly than the church ever could for a ridiculously less amount of money and less amount of time, because you don't have to deal with all of this Mother Mai-ai stuff.
Speaker 1:Ethics is a personal thing and will help you out with your ethics as far as leaving the church and things like that. But you have to look at are you happy? What is happy? Are you happy in the church? And happiness is your ethics are in. If you're unhappy in the church, your ethics are out. That's it Right. And that's where that doubt condition comes in. Is this am I happy with this? No, okay, talk to somebody in the independent field. Find out what it's like, what's it cost, what can I do for free to get a feel for it and find out if people are going to try and control me, because there's a huge button on that control aspect and there's virtually none. We do auditing from your own home. You can sit there in your PJs and go in session. You don't have to get dressed. Drive to the org. That's what I do, yeah.
Speaker 2:Let me say this because from my experience, my sojourn through church of Scientology, every independent Scientology, algp, and really like moving into this space of enjoying now, fully enjoying my spiritual freedom journey, it really started kind of how you said it it's like, okay, I'm not going back, I'm going to a different direction. Then finding different organizations or different independent people and doing different things that talk to multiple independent auditors and really just got a feel for what their viewpoint was, their style was their way of being, if we had some parity, some good ARC, that whole thing felt really good. I had some great conversations with people. When I found you, jonathan and ALGP, it was immediate kismet. It was immediate kismet. It was very much so like this person knows what he's talking about, gets how to deal with me as an individual, as a being, because I'm I ain't no joke, right.
Speaker 2:How to deal with me and keep me on live.
Speaker 2:You're a formidable being, and so it felt to me like I trusted. I trusted that this was going to be a right move for me spiritually, and in that I said, okay, what do I need to do now? As you talk to me about different ways of getting started, you of course talk to me about going all in and really committing to my bridge, and I had to take a look at what was really, really important to me at this dispensation in my life. So for me, I dealt with my personal. It was like about personal reflection and making the decision of how I wanted to move for myself. Then I did my research, I'd had conversations with people and then I'd made a decision on how I wanted to move.
Speaker 2:I never wanted to stop learning, which is where the courses and stuff come in with the college. I never wanted to stop learning and I never wanted to stop progressing, which is my bridge activity. So both sides of the bridge training and auditing. So I never wanted to stop that, but I wanted to make it my own and that's what I feel like as an independent Scientologist I'm able to do now I'm able to make this my own, and that felt very freedom of choice. That felt very much like you know more than anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, more than anything, I was a self-determined being now on how I wanted to move forward. And when you start talking to me about the money and the pricing and I was like, wait, what this is serious, this is how I could do this. And I totally, for the first time, believed and saw for myself that I could do this and, trust me, I was in a position where I was willing to make some big financial commitments to my own spirituality, to my own growth, my own development. I was ready to do some things for what I need to do. And yet when I found AOGP, it felt like now this makes sense. Now it makes sense on why this pricing is in place, why these hours are necessary, why my technical service thing or technical.
Speaker 1:Technical improvement program.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's my tip why my technical improvement program was necessary, and when you cover everything for me very thoroughly and really enlightened me as it relates to what needed to be done to get us where we need to go in a very short period of time, relatively short period of time it makes sense to me and it was a no-brainer.
Speaker 2:So all I'll say is this what I really love about this process is that, whomever is listening to this, you are self-determined and you can make these decisions for yourself, by yourself. When you then team up or twin up with somebody who really gets it and has been through it and is ready to help you along the way Dorothy on the Yellowbrick Road, so to speak, help you along the way I just want to get to where I need to be. Who can help me with that? And this is why I started doing the podcast with AOGP too, because I wanted to, I wanted to. I didn't really have any doubt. Condition I just know I wanted to help people make this journey for themselves and the way they need to do it. So that's my story.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you. It's important to note that and this is the term I had to introduce Lisa to early on in our relationship was arbitraries. It's important to note to anybody that's leaving the church that you need to. You don't know what you don't know, and the hardest thing to spot is a missing, this Perelirage. There are a significant amount of arbitraries.
Speaker 1:These are things that are put in your road, that you have to do in order to go OT. One of them is hundreds of thousands of dollars. One of them is an IAS membership and you have to contribute so much money to that. So you have to buy these books and you have to have two meters, and you have to, and these meters cost $10,000. You can buy two theta meters for under $1,000. Two theta meters for under $1,000. You only need one set of cans, two meters under $1,000. This is an example.
Speaker 1:Most Scientologists in the Church have no idea that there is a meter that we use in the field the aforementioned Theta Meter that is more accurate and is a completely solid state, with the exception of the A to D, d to A converters, of the electrical signal that goes into the cans and into your body and back into the meter, it's solid state, it's software on your computer. These sorts of things are the cost, all of the things that you have to get approval for before you can do, and they have to ascertain for you that they know better than you do. When you've gone release on a particular grade and they say no, you didn't do this, you have to do this. I mean just, there's so many arbitraries that just don't have to be there. You can go from zero to OTA in two years, in two years or less in some cases. If you really push it In the Church, it would take you decades because they're going to milk you for all your worth, both in your efforts, your donations, your time, all of this stuff.
Speaker 1:This is an LRH. I'll give you an example. Lrh had the HAZI, which is basically the same thing as the IAS. The HAZI was basically the Church membership.
Speaker 2:Wait spell that.
Speaker 1:The HAZI, hazi, h-a-s-i, hazi okay, it's an acronym. You know how much the HAZI was for a lifetime membership?
Speaker 2:What Five US dollars Just before inflation is like 25 dollars.
Speaker 1:Yeah, miss Kavage did away with it. This is an example of an arbitrary. You didn't have to donate anymore or anything like that just five dollars. This is an example of how exacerbated these arbitraries are. You don't have to put up with that stuff. This should help you with your doubt condition. There are so many things that you don't know that you're having to do that you think that you have to do. That are arbitraries. You would blow your mind as a listener who's in the church and you're thinking about looking into other things.
Speaker 1:We have people all the time. Look at our website. I can tell. I can tell what they look at on our website and I can see yep, they're in the church. I can see their location Yep, they are in the church.
Speaker 1:You can break free of this. There's nothing holding you. You just have to decide to talk to somebody and say look, this is what's happening. A lot of the people that we get, like I've mentioned before earlier, or have done, or on the survival rundown, get off of it. It's not LRH. If you're feeling crappy about it, you're feeling crappy for a reason. We can fix that easily.
Speaker 1:Your overrun on your objectives is usually what it is these types of things if you're being made to redo all of your grades. You were told you were clear, you were told you were OT and they said, nope, you need to go all the way back down to the bottom and start over and do your SRD. You and my friend are being lied to. It is the cruelest, cruelest, cruelest thing to tell an OT you are not an OT, or clear that you're not clear, a grade two release that you're not a grade two release. That is evil. We could get into even more things that they've done on knots and things like that, the way that they do new OT four through new OT seven, where they're making people mock up a bank and come back and redo it so that they can sell them more auditing at knots rates and everything like that. It's the most evil thing in the world.
Speaker 1:Get out, come talk to us, come talk to other people, get a good sample of who's out there and have conversations, like Quentin did, and get in touch with people. You don't have to tell your family, you don't have to tell your business, but you've got to do what's right for you. Lrh says you've got a brief breath and eternity to do this and you need to take this opportunity now, because it might not pass this way again. Scientology works and it doesn't just change your life now. It changes you as a being from here on forward, up to time track, in the physical universe and in the theta universe. Your life will never be the same.
Speaker 1:I can guarantee you that the paths that you would take if you don't go OT will be different paths than you will take if you do go OT, and you will never be the same for the better. Make that decision, get in touch with somebody. There's nothing to be afraid of, nobody's going to hurt you, and we will stand for you and we will stand behind you all the way and give you all of the information and let you know what you didn't know. That's what I have to say about it.
Speaker 2:I appreciate this, I really do. I want to just say this as an insert. That's here when it comes to family and the relationships that you have, whether family is inside the church and there are some things with that whole situation or family who is outside the church and antagonistic or just doesn't want you to look into Scientology at all, I want to say this, and this is a statement from the state of man Congress and it's a lecture five on marriage. This kind of blew me away right. The other thing that says that mothers and fathers actually come later on the track, earlier it was just fate and brotherhoods and this pretense at association was something that seldom worked out very well, because everybody knew they were just pretending and they knew there was no real familial relationship.
Speaker 2:This falsity, or the ideas of this falsity, actually come forward into the modern family. It's very easy to break down a family because there is no relationship in a family except a pretend relationship. Think of it for a moment and you realize that you're supporting a thing which can't exist. Listen to this a Thayton was never the daughter of another Thayton. No, thayton was ever the father of another Thayton. No matter what the good book says, that's the truth of the matter. Now, anytime you have a relationship which isn't inherent or based on immediate and direct fact, you have to work at it. Now I'm not saying that marriage is a false relationship. It isn't. In the society and time, a family is the closest knit, self-perpetuating, self-protecting unit and is necessary economically and otherwise to the society the way it's rigged at this present time. And who destroys marriage destroys civilization. That's fairly sure.
Speaker 2:Let me say this when I read this and heard this, I was floored because I inherently knew and you guys know my story if you've ever listened to any of these podcasts before I came from a very conservative Christian family and it was very well controlled in that modality. But I knew that when my family I don't know how to say it, I really don't know how to communicate it, but I knew like, yeah, you're my family and I get you, like on the genetic entity line, like I get where I came from. But I knew as a being and I didn't have Thayton back then I just knew. I knew this wasn't the same thing, right, exactly. And so when LRH said this in the State of Manic Congress, I was like, wait, what did I just hear? Like I don't have to feel locked in to this pretended thing beyond my genetics shared genetics.
Speaker 2:I see you had it with this, I'm going somewhere seriously, because I don't have to be locked into this. And when I decided that and realized that for myself, whatever direction I took as a self-determined, causative being, I felt very good about it for me, right, and I remember many conversations with my mother and she tried to cast demons out of me, and I started casting demons out of her and we was going back and forth, right, and so we were having this whole thing, but I never felt like I was losing something. Hear me, and I want you, those of you who are listening to this and dealing with some kind of family condition I never felt like I was losing something. I felt like I was able, now, to create exactly what I wanted. I was able to postulate the family that I wanted. I was able to postulate the relationships that I wanted. I was able to have something better.
Speaker 2:And the last thing I'll say is this and the Bible says it that way too. It literally says it says that you will have many brothers and many sisters, many fathers and many mothers in this truth, in this awareness, and so I never felt like I was losing a mother or losing a father, or losing a brother, or whatever. I always felt like I was gaining an opportunity to create it exactly the way I wanted, and that's what I found in my journey into Scientology, the study of, and then independent Scientology in Ernst.
Speaker 1:So that's my story. Well, it's an interesting thing to note that and this has been my observation that a lot of people and there's a parallel here, since we've kind of gone off on a side reel here about family and marriages and things like that A lot of people they don't flourish and prosper until their parents pass away, because they've. I've seen it so many times. And you just look at the statistics and you go, you know, and they said my dad died. And then you go like what happened after that? Because you just became this beast of a creative person and you had a successful business and successful family and these things hold you down.
Speaker 1:Now the angle that I think that we're going for on this is when you're in the church, you're being held back. You're being held back because you've got somebody dangling this carat of spiritual eternity that's saying well, you know it's, it's going to be a long time and we're going to, we're going to milk this cow for as much as we can. You don't have to do that, you can get out out of it. Nobody's, nobody's going to stop you. It's not illegal. And I'll tell you this much when I told everybody what was going on with the church and I mentioned this in the last podcast, so I'll make it very brief, but every single last one of my friends that I thought were my friends discarded me and wouldn't talk to me anymore, every single one, even two of them who were my auditors and I was an auditor as well. They even get me to the curb and 99% of those people that I told are now out out of the church 20 years, did they?
Speaker 2:apologize. Did any of them apologize?
Speaker 1:Nope.
Speaker 2:And that's why, and that's why I don't let me tell you something A blocking is a blessing. Okay, yes, it is.
Speaker 2:A blocking is a blessing and I ain't got no problem blocking somebody because let me be very clear I tried to tell y'all 20 some odd years ago that something wasn't right, something was afoot, something was missed, something was or whatever. I tried to tell y'all you gave you taught, called me everything but a child of God. And then when you finally get it and you finally leave, you don't come back and try to make right what you, what you messed up, you know what, and that's why, and that's why I don't, I don't play those little relationship games. I really don't. I really don't know anything. You know me. Yeah, right, yeah. And LRH says it this way. He says he says a culture goes by the boards. If it's basic building block, the family is removed as a valid building block. But there is no reason we should get mocked up and silly about what the relationship is. The relationship, basically, is a postulated relationship. There is no truth in the relationship. It is a postulated relationship and when people stop postulating it it ceases to exist.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay, right, and that's what? Yeah, that's, that's what's happened with the church. There are many, many, many good people still in the church who mean well and want to help others and care, and there are lots of Siorg members that that feel that they're doing the right thing. But the thing is is you don't know what you, what you don't know, and it is. It is a postulated relationship that they they are behaving the way they're behaving towards you, the listener who is thinking about leaving the church. They're behaving that way because that's there Now I'm supposed to. This is how everybody else does it.
Speaker 2:This is how I'm going to treat you Now. I'm supposed to treat you this way. Now I'm supposed to act this way. Now I'm supposed to say this to you yeah, Right, right.
Speaker 1:So they're, they're misguided. I'm not going to go as far as to say that they're wrong, but they're misguided because and you, you, of all people, could probably give me all kinds of of biblical quotes on you know, you're only as good as the people that raised you, the people that taught you how to do these things.
Speaker 1:And you have to be your own person and your postulated relationship with the church is merely that apostulated relationship, and you have to change your mind and look at this and go. Okay, if they won't listen, so be it.
Speaker 2:Right, and again, I know I know my voice. Please, please, please, hear me people. I know my voice sounds like I'm a bit flabbergasted by it all because I am a little bit, but when you get as big as you are I don't know how to say that when you get to be as big as you truly are, you will. You will look back at all this stuff and you'll be like I can't believe I was being held down by that ball of lit. I can't believe I was being held down by that, down by that consideration of what these people think I should be at being doing, having acting like whatever, whatever putting in place. And when I say these people, I'm talking about the church, I'm talking about my family, I'm talking about whoever. I can't be held down by that.
Speaker 2:And when you start to leave the church of Scientology corporate structure and decide that your spirituality is something that you really want to take into your hands and make something, make a go of it like a real go of it, do something about it. Like when you get that auction, when you get the notion, when you get the thing, when the first, that first little question comes up, man, I don't know if I do something about it. I don't know if I should do something about it, get something going on that and then see where that takes you. Now, if it takes you and you say you know what, I think I'm good. I think I really want to just do what I'm doing now and I'm okay with the status quo. Fine, do what you do it, Nothing's changed. But if you really realize that feeling, that awareness meant something and is going to take you somewhere, follow that yellow brick road and see where it takes you and I promise you it's going to be a beautiful journey one way or the other.
Speaker 1:So this is good. If it isn't fun, it isn't Scientology. If you feel like you're looking over your shoulder and people are writing knowledge reports on you and you feel like you have, you feel like and this is the thing you feel like you have to be good. Okay, I got news for you. You're already good. A being is basically good. Thank you to recognize that folks. If you're in the church and you feel like you have to be good, no, no, no, no. That's not how this works. Scientology is really fun, dianetics is really Fun and it's easy to do and it's real flowy. And and there's, there's, there's not this effort, there's not this, you know, enforcement or inhibitedness going on. It's curious, it's understand, it's yes, no.
Speaker 2:You, you, you want to see what's next. You want to see how deep we feel. I remember having conversations with you, jonathan, and I remember going to session and I and it's like we want to see what we can dig up. We want to see what we can pull out of there and take that whole journey and that adventure. You know, beyond the beyond of the mystery, of the mysteries of who I am, I want to know that kind of stuff and that's what I'm gonna be. I'm being 100% honest, y'all. That's what Scientology has done for me. It's got me so interested in myself that I'm that I want to uncover more about me. And in uncovering more about me, I feel like it's something that that I'm almost like winning the prize, I'm almost finding a secret treasure of self, and that's what this has always felt like for me. And so I'm I'm I'm very, very happy in my journey. Good, better, indifferent. I'm very, very happy in my journey and this is something I love, love, love, talking about and sharing.
Speaker 1:Yeah and you know it, doing dynamics and Scientology, the subjects is a journey in self-adventure. And a journey in self-adventure should be fun and you know it's it's In the church it's. It's an adventure of how long I can stick around and play by their rules. That's not a journey of self-adventure. That's something quite, quite different and you really need to look at that and understand that and going. Am I having a journey of self-adventure here? Am I finding out more about myself and who I am and in my abilities, or am I being told that I have to do this and I have to do that in this enforcement? That's it's. It's. Unfortunately, it's degraded down to gestapo tactics. So, yeah, my best advice to you is is is to look at the doubt condition and compare, get you have to get comparable Magnitudes. You have to do that, compare and contrast how these guys are, how these guys are, how do they treat these things? You know and and and ask them and getting communication and Realize that you're being suppressed. And if you committed it over it against the church, write it down. Just use the OWPL time place, form an event, write it down, get it on paper and get it out of your head and you won't be PTS anymore, because your spiritual freedom is your choice and you should be able to walk that path the way you want to, because throughout history and In all the time track of the physical universe, there's always been somebody there telling you how To walk your spiritual path. And you don't have to do that. Lra just doesn't make evaluations for you. You make your own decisions.
Speaker 1:I was just talking to one of our auditors and training about this is that we never tell you what to do Inaudit. We never tell you what to do with with anything. We merely say this is what LRA says and we suggested to you. So our suggestion to you is is to take a look, step outside. You don't have to tell anybody and if you decide well, you know, you know I'm gonna stick with this that's fine, that's your decision, that's your postulated relationship. Or you can make another postulate and you can get up the bridge in less than two years If you want to, and you can get trained as an auditor and you can help other people and and your dynamics will flourish and prosper beyond your wildest dreams. So in closing, quentin, do you have anything you want to head? I?
Speaker 2:Mean, I think. I think you just summed it up and I will say Because again I didn't do the whole doubt condition thing, but I'll say this you know what feels right to you and, and despite all the naysayers, but despite all the Conversation about what is and what's not, and who does who's doing what and who's sleeping with who, and despite all that kind of stuff, you know what feels right to you. A you get to then move closer and closer and closer, in alignment with what feels good, and In doing that You'll see how you really want to be, how you really want to express, how you really want to grow. I personally suggest Really really talking to somebody like myself, like Jonathan, and getting like that two-way communication Because we know communication is the universal solvent and getting some good two-way communication Just to say, hey, listen, I want to talk to you about this because I don't know what I should be doing.
Speaker 2:Well, I want to talk to you about this because I don't know if this is the right track for me. Let's talk about it, and with no evaluation, but simply again, you've heard our stories, you've heard, you know kind of was there, and then let us hear your story and I'll ask does that feel good to you? Is that the direction, that is that the way you think it should have been handled? Is that you know whatever and, when you start to realize, say you know what, I Know what I'm doing for me, I know what's right for me, and then move forward with that. That's, that's the best advice I got to give you so I love it.
Speaker 1:It's right if it. If, if you're not having fun, you need to change things up and you need to change your postulates and get more information to make that decision. That's, that's the the best thing I can say as well. So, folks, we are at the end of this podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. If you have any questions, we've got the email on the website. You can get a hold of Quentin as well Through us and we will put you in touch with him. He's he's a great terminal, he's he's a, he's a chaplain for AOGP and he can talk you, talk to you and get the information and Help you out with these things. You know, whatever decision it is that you need to make, so for Quentin and myself and for Scientology outside of the church podcast, we'll see you on our next podcast here in the next day or two, namaste, and we love you. Bye, peace.