Embark on an intellectual odyssey as we unravel the surprising links between Independent Scientology and Biblical wisdom, with the discerning guidance of Quentin Stroud and Lisa Burke, and myself, Jonathan Burke.
This episode is a tapestry of topics, weaving the threads of divine nature from scripture and Scientology's advanced teachings into a vibrant discussion on spiritual evolution. From the comparison of 'children of the most high' to 'sons of God' to the pursuit of Operating Thetan levels, we're piecing together the universal fabric of our spiritual being. Our conversation traverses the realm of sentient beings and demons, peering into the intertwining of the reactive mind and the devil, and the narrative of Jesus's encounters with the possessed as a metaphor for spiritual cleansing practices.
As the journey culminates, we grapple with the intricate dance of self-determination, personal accountability, and the interpretations of scriptural texts. The thought-provoking repartee between the Christian paradigm of sacrifice and Scientology's empowerment through self-awareness invites an introspection on our intrinsic value. We magnify the shared aspirations across spiritual doctrines, from Christianity to Islam, emphasizing the quest for tools that foster personal growth. So, listen in for a compelling discourse that may just alter your perspective on truth, ethics, and the endless quest for spiritual enlightenment.
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Embark on an intellectual odyssey as we unravel the surprising links between Independent Scientology and Biblical wisdom, with the discerning guidance of Quentin Stroud and Lisa Burke, and myself, Jonathan Burke.
This episode is a tapestry of topics, weaving the threads of divine nature from scripture and Scientology's advanced teachings into a vibrant discussion on spiritual evolution. From the comparison of 'children of the most high' to 'sons of God' to the pursuit of Operating Thetan levels, we're piecing together the universal fabric of our spiritual being. Our conversation traverses the realm of sentient beings and demons, peering into the intertwining of the reactive mind and the devil, and the narrative of Jesus's encounters with the possessed as a metaphor for spiritual cleansing practices.
As the journey culminates, we grapple with the intricate dance of self-determination, personal accountability, and the interpretations of scriptural texts. The thought-provoking repartee between the Christian paradigm of sacrifice and Scientology's empowerment through self-awareness invites an introspection on our intrinsic value. We magnify the shared aspirations across spiritual doctrines, from Christianity to Islam, emphasizing the quest for tools that foster personal growth. So, listen in for a compelling discourse that may just alter your perspective on truth, ethics, and the endless quest for spiritual enlightenment.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
Take our personality test and get a free evaluation: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHJQ6DY
Hey there, independent Scientologists. Discover a new perspective to your bridge by visiting aohyephngporg. Get in session with remote auditing using the Theta Meter. Are you curious about where you stand? Head on over to aohyephngporg now and take our free personality test. Join the growing group of independent Scientologists today.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome to another AOGP Outside of the Church podcast. This is season seven, episode eight. This is going to be part two of our independent Scientology and other spiritual practices Scientology and the Bible. So I'm here with Quentin Stroud and Scientologist Lisa Burke and we are going to dive deeply into the compare and contrast between independent Scientology and the Bible. So, quentin, where would you like to start on this?
Speaker 3:So I mean it's a pretty big topic. I mean, obviously LRHD had over like 4,500 lectures and you know, the Bible contains multiple, multiple books and messages and teachings. You know, I think that, more than anything, I want people to realize, and my particular experience was, like I said before, I was raised a very conservative Christian and so whenever I found or looked at anything, I always compared it to what I knew. You know, comparable magnitude kind of thing, right, data evaluator kind of thing. And so I had to see, okay, well, if I know this as my reality it was my, my truth then how does this compare to this, how does that compare to this? How does you know?
Speaker 3:And so for me, looking at Scientology with a biblical highlighter was kind of a natural thing for me. Like I had to kind of go through it with a with a biblical highlighter, like, oh, what about that, what about this, what about that, you know? And so I think that you know, just kind of opening up the dialogue to talk about what do y'all believe, what do the Bible say, what do you know, all that kind of stuff, like I think opening up the dialogue kind of bring some comparative religion topics into the conversation. So I don't know where we should start, but what are some of the some of the top beliefs and or teachings or principles of Scientology that we can start with?
Speaker 2:Well, it just occurred to me one of the things that I wanted to bring up that that Lisa's mentioned to me having a biblical background. Was you ready for this, lisa? The father, the son and the holy ghost. Oh, I like it. Okay. So you want to explain what your, your your take on that was, and what your realization and cognition was on that?
Speaker 3:Okay so okay, so, oh, sorry, go ahead, lisa.
Speaker 1:Okay for me. I had a realization one day and of course it's not necessarily true, and you know I mean every like. I don't want the Christians to come off to me and be like, yeah, you're twisting shit, because I know that they can very easily do that. But what I realized for myself was the connection between Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God and the, the mind, the faith, and then man. So there's like, obviously, a trinity with us and there's a trinity in Christianity as well, and so, and and how I really looked at it was the things that are said. So, for example, okay, I liken God to the mind, sorry, I liken the Holy Spirit to the Thayton and Jesus as man. So there's a lot of different things, like, for example, when, when he says, you know, you can't get through the father unless you get to me, well, you can't access the mind without having a body, kind of a thing you know.
Speaker 1:And the Holy Spirit, you know it says like one of the well, the sin that is unforgivable is to sin against the Holy Spirit. And then I thought about it in another translation, which was that it's impossible to sin against a Thayton, it's impossible to create, because a Thayton is immortal. And if he's immortal then he's also infinitely capable and therefore you cannot destroy him. You know so when you, when you look at all these things and you really go and you read the chapters and you apply this kind of thinking to all of it, it makes sense, it makes sense to me anyway. What that means, I don't know, but for me I have. I found a greater spiritual meaning with the Bible when I look at it in terms of this. Now, that doesn't mean that there isn't a creator, you know, I'm not saying that there is no God, but yeah, it makes sense to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know what impressed me about Scientology principle, particularly the eight dynamics. When LRH broke, life broke everything down through these eight dynamics and these concentric circles that expand outwardly to infinity. Right, the eight dynamic when and Jonathan, you might have to help me with this, but it says that when you, when, fully realizes their own the seventh dynamic, fully realizes and and understands the seventh dynamic, then one discovers their own eighth dynamic. Am I saying that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, on route to infinity, he describes. Now this is like 52. He describes the eighth dynamic as encompassing all of the other seven seven dynamics. That would be one through seven, and so the eighth dynamic is all of the other dynamics in in their entirety and later on that became the, you know, the, the spiritual dynamic type of a thing Got it. That's the one that's always stood out in my mind, because the eight dynamic before that to me was a little uh, uh, what sort I'm looking for it was. It was a little hard to conceive of what it was, and that helped. That helped me a lot.
Speaker 2:Now there was also, uh, when I was working with Andy Bagley, who was um LRH's original communicator back in 51 and 52, at this time Andy told me that LRH had considered um having a money dynamic as well. This was when he was writing the dynamics out. This was, you know, I was talking to Andy about this. This would have been 1989 and this occurred in 1952 and he said he actually asked Andy what do you think about money dynamic? And I thought, well, that's an interesting thing that LRH asked Andy about this and Andy smoked the pipe and it was an older, older fella in his 80s at the time, and and then LRH decided that the eighth dynamic covered that. That's why I mentioned it. I found that to be really interesting.
Speaker 3:Oh, interesting, you saw the eight, the eight dynamic. Oh, my god, okay. So you're touching on a couple of different things for me with this. So so when you say that the eighth dynamic encompasses and includes all the other dynamics, because it's, it is infinity. So what I used to say to people is this if god is infinite, right, if god is all that is, god is all there is, god is from beginning in the end, and the alpha and the omega, all that whole thing, right. If god is all that is, then everything must be included in god, in that. So there is no separation, right. We have this idea that god is way up there on a cloud and we're way down here on earth, but if you understand god as an infinite and all that is, then that would.
Speaker 3:That's how the eighth dynamic makes sense to me and john in the book of john, chapter one, and it says in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god and he was in the beginning with god. All things were made through him and without him, nothing that was made was made. So all things was made through this dynamic, all things was made through this expression, through this awareness of awareness, this understanding of what is and what is to be. All things are in that. And so if we talk about the father, the son, the holy spirit, and and we can we can put personality or personalities on it, anthropomorphize, anthropomorphize it as we as we can.
Speaker 3:But if, if god or the divine being, supreme being, as represented in the eighth dynamic, then we go to the seventh dynamic, which is the spiritual dynamic, which includes that holy spirit that we were just talking about, right, the holy spirit that we talk about. And then we have the son, or the full expression of all that in man. So if you look at that, eight dynamics reversed, you get a, you get a jesus concept, right, you get a, you get a divinity that became man. And if you look at it the other way around, you get a man that became divinity.
Speaker 2:Eight dynamics yeah bible, it makes sense it does well, and from the standpoint of, okay, what, what came first? The chicken or the egg kind of the thing, uh, it, it seems to me that that, from the eighth dynamic down to the first dynamic, it would be and, and this is sort of the way that it's explained in the bible help me here if I'm getting this wrong, because the bible isn't my strong suit but, uh, you're looking at it from the eighth dynamic down through to the first dynamic, because it's it's a summation and it started from the eighth.
Speaker 2:It didn't start from the first, it started from the eighth and from my experience when I did the elves and and this is sort of like the beginning of the beginning, of the beginning of time before the physical universe I've told the story a lot recently but, um, I don't think I've said it in a podcast, but what I came up with on the elves was, is, is, is. What that eighth dynamic was was sort of a little bit like the silver, surfer and galacticus type of a thing in marvel comics yeah yeah, glass, I always do that.
Speaker 2:Galactus said we, you and I've talked about this before where it was, um, you sort of peeled off like a, like a seed from, from a dandelion or something like that, and it was go forth and experience and report back and tell me what you see, what you find. And all of a sudden, there you are, in the physical universe and you're, you're, you're reporting back telepathically. And then one day, and after you've stumbled into all of this, you, you start running into opposing forces and things like that, and and then one day there's nobody to report back to and there's no universe, home universe, to go back to, so to speak. And that's that's how that whole thing happened, from eight down to seventh, through first.
Speaker 2:That that's that's the way that it appeared to have happened to me. It may be different for other people, but that is what I um experienced and and whole track wise and everything like that, so I can see how that would, how that would occur from that particular experience where you're going from eighth down to first, because at the time there weren't any bodies involved, it was just experiencing, yeah, this void sort of a thing. Right, you're going going from there, yeah exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3:And so, when we look at this thing, from the eighth dynamic down to the first, that you are an expression of all that is, you are an, a, a culmination, a, a source point or a viewpoint, maybe even of all that is right and all that is gets to then operate as you. So, as lisa, as jonathan, as quintin I am. That I am right. And so it's interesting then, because psalms, chapter 82 in scripture, psalms chapter 82 says that god elohim, the most high standard before the congregation of the mighty, and he judges amongst the gods, little g s the gods, and he says how long would you judge unjustly and how long will you show partiality towards the wicked? Defend the poor and the fatherless, do justice to the afflicted and the needy, deliver the poor and the needy, free them from the hand of the wicked. Listen to this number five, for they know not, neither do they understand. They walk on in their darkness and all the foundations of the earth are unstable. I have said ye are gods. Psalms 82 and 6 read it. I have said ye are gods and all are children of the most high, supreme being. But you shall die like men and you shall fall like a prince. Arise. Oh god, judge the earth and you shall inherit all nations.
Speaker 3:Hear me when scripture says that you are a god, you are a divine being having a human experience, a spiritual being having a human experience. This is very clear. And so, from eight to seven. Then you come into this life, experience this a life, uh, uh, the, the, the six dynamic, you, you come into some kind of physical experience, then you come into life, then you come into all these ways of living, these collections of, of, of, of sales, and bacteria, and paramecium, and blah, blah, until you become you and you be you and you express as you choose to express in your divinity. It and it says how long are you going to keep acting this way? How long, how long are you going to keep acting like you're not a god?
Speaker 1:and it's funny, when you said the, the known, I think you said knowingness or something like that, and I was just like, yeah, that's like so scientology as well, because, um, I mean they know, not yeah yeah, yeah, that thing, um, we, we definitely are in scientology to know. I mean see, I don't know.
Speaker 3:That's it. Yeah, they know not, neither do they understand they walk on in darkness, that they're clouded. They don't. People don't know who they really are. And it's next, the next sentence. As I have said, you are gods anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Oh well, and that that kind of comes down to. The One has to become aborated in order to play a game as one of the axioms.
Speaker 3:That's good.
Speaker 2:And so at what? At some point you said oh Well, I don't have a game of my god, I'm, I can't be a god because I want to play a game.
Speaker 3:The whole Mount Olympus story. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, serving number 37. You are now man At that point because you, you, you basically turned in your, your, your, your, god, god, pantheon of God's membership card because you wanted to play a game when the only person that that that changed their mind about the whole thing was was being themselves, which which goes along with what you just read.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really interesting because when I, when I started studying Scientology, I had to use my Bible, my Bible highlighter, and if it didn't make sense to me from Biblical perspective, it was. I'm telling y'all right now it would have been something I totally would have put aside Because I had to understand it based on my level of awareness and knowing this at that time. Now, this was 22 years ago, of course, but it just continued to evolve from there. So we talked about this supreme being. We talked about then the son, or the son.
Speaker 3:So, metaphysically, the Bible says son, son simply means a matured Expression, a matured idea. It says here you are all children of the most high. So there's children, and then there's the son, or sons of God. Scripture says that all of creation is moaning and eagerly awaiting the manifestation of the son's plural of God. And so we get to this whole awareness that that as we get ready to go OT, or as we're moving towards OT, we're maturing in our spiritual awareness. We become sons of God, we become, we become matured expressions of all that is and we now can operate Operating thing. We can now operate as we say we are or we know ourselves to be. That's the son.
Speaker 3:Well that that's. That's the matured expression.
Speaker 2:So okay. So what did Lisa? What did you say you? Your realization was with, but the, the ghost was the Holy Ghost.
Speaker 1:Oh, that, okay, it's, it's kind of, it's kind of hard when you know like, look, look, trying to compare, but If you have to say, okay, for example, jesus, right, one of the one of the big things that happened with Jesus was that he could well, he, he, he died, and that to me is is almost like a symbol of being mortal, which is why I identified Jesus to be along the lines of man, or at least possibly even the physical universe, whereas when you look at the Holy Spirit, you can compare that to being a Satan, because you, you can't, you know, like you, you, you can't destroy a thing because they're infinitely capable, they're immortal, all of that stuff, right. So there's that. And then when you look at God, well, it's kind of like the conversation we had the other day about with her medicism and I'm just bringing that in here briefly, where, along with your chat today, quentin where you said, basically everything is God and the eight dynamics and all of that stuff, right, and technically we're kind of all connected. So when you look at that and you look at other ages version, where I'll reach says, you know, we're all in the same room, and he also says that basically we're, we're creating this reality, right, her medicines, her medicism says All his mind, everything is mental.
Speaker 1:And then if you take that and you say all as in everything, then you get close to the realization that, well, if, if that's the case, if all is mental, then that's got to do with the mind, and then the mind is technically God. Now, no, that's not the most ideal Thing to think about. Like we, I think we might, we might want to Compare ourselves as statements to you know, higher beings, etc. But this is just the way I have put it in in. You know my no, you're standing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, you're definitely. You're definitely honest with something because, again, remember, lrh says that a thing is an awareness of awareness unit. So it is about my, it is a. It is a thinking of the mind. So it is about my, it is a, it is a thinking thing, is a thing that that postulates, considers, conceives and the whole bit has opinions, like when one can have all these things as a thing. But I want to give you a different word that might be a little bit more aproposal what we're talking about when we talk about the thing.
Speaker 3:So in scripture there's a Hebrew word called nephish, neph, esh, nephish, and nephish is basically the sentience of creation. Okay, so a bug, paramecium, or living like an organism. That wouldn't be, that wouldn't be necessarily nephish. Nephish is one that operates with sentience. And so in Genesis, chapter 1 and Genesis 2, where it says God blue and I'm sorry to step to where says God blew into his nostrils the breath of life, the breath of life or the essence of life, and man became a living soul. It's interesting because it doesn't say that man has a soul. And so what we teach In theology and in Christian theology is that the nephish is who you are, is not something you have. You don't have a net you don't have, since you don't have sentience. You are sentience, right, you Know you don't have a soul. You are that.
Speaker 3:I am, that I am and you operate as that Throughout life, with and to the degree that you understand your sentience or are able to Walking your sentience is to the degree that you'll have a positive life. Because if you're unsentient, if you're unwise, if you're un, unkind, if you're wicked, that's what wicked means. Unwise is what wisdom, reversed is the wicked ones. If you're wicked, you're not living in alignment with your nephish or with who you really are. Another word you're out ethics.
Speaker 2:There you have it yeah.
Speaker 1:Instead of God being the mind. What if the devil is the mind?
Speaker 3:because, well, at least the the devil is the reactive mind. Yeah, I already said that if there were a devil, the reactive mind would be right that makes sense.
Speaker 1:That makes complete sense to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know what? What I okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I was gonna. I was gonna say on the subject of the devil, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not gonna completely give up the goose yet because I actually shouldn't even know about it, but I do, so whatever, um, but I think people know from a YouTube video, my YouTube videos, that I that I do know about it. But if you look at certain upper level, upper levels of Scientology there's, you know, things that compare and and those who know know, but you sure Well, I know where you're going.
Speaker 3:We, you don't have to. You don't have to say any particulars when I'll say yeah. Finish what you're saying, because I want to comment on that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the, the, the bad guy, you can akin him to the devil, obviously, and the whole. You know, hell can be like well, the, the volcano story, and then obviously there's this, uh, souls and stuff like that. Well, that could be, you know, obviously we all have souls and stuff.
Speaker 1:Yes, and we are, we are that yeah, and then there's, you know, fallen ones which can be demons. Now, this part I don't really know if it's in there, but I did read that there was there was connotations towards fallen ones, so that could be things like angels, or it could be demons as well. So you know they. They are definite similarities between the bible and this upper level stuff.
Speaker 3:A demon. A demon is nothing more than a degraded angel if you if you're looking at it from the biblical perspective, right, and there are Fatens, and then there are degraded fatens, right.
Speaker 3:There are body things there. There are these things, that, that things that go bump in the night, as we talked about. If you go back and listen to that whole Paratons parasyntology series, which is some good stuff, like it like we talk about a little bit of these things as well, but like so, when there's a story in the bible where jesus encountered this man and he was, uh, possessed of demons, and in the scripture he says what is your name? Right? Who are you? And the demon spoke and says we are legion, for we are many, and the man was Throwing himself against the stones and cutting himself with stones and tossing himself against trees and hurting himself and doing all this stuff or whatever Today. Well, you might call it epileptic or schizophrenic or something like that.
Speaker 3:But, um, people have, you know, modern Viewpoints on it. My point is this is that this Um valence that this person was clearly operating from, says that we are legion, for we are many. Right, many of us are operating on this man right now. Okay, yeah and so and so Jesus turned to his disciples who had been tried to cure this man of his affliction, his, his possession. They couldn't do it. So jesus turns to his disciples and he says oh, this one comes through fasting and prayer. Now hear me, because when, when you hear fasting and prayer, you think about not eating some chicken.
Speaker 3:Yeah don't, don't get too literal. This one comes through fasting and prayer. Fasting is a way of purging. Fasting is a way of removing toxins and stuff out of your body. Fasting is a way of of keeping yourself from going Uh, uh, continuing down a certain path right. And so, when you look at auditing, when you look at diabetics, when you look at auditing, you're looking at a way of purging, you're looking at a way of releasing, you're looking at a way of cleansing, you're looking at a way of resetting the mind. This one comes through fasting and prayer. All these legion we are legion, for we are many. The way you get rid of that one, you gotta do some Like. You got to go bigger than just, uh, say, I believe that, god, I believe, I believe, I believe you got to go different than that there's. There's another way To get rid of legion. There's another way to get rid of the many.
Speaker 3:Jonathan, you know what I'm talking about, and so so, when, when People think about demons, don't think about like a little evil imp on your back trying to scratch you up Right. When you think about demon, think about it this way a demon Is an unhealthy demonstration Of a negative idea held in consciousness. It's a, it's a negative incident, it's some negative incident held in consciousness and this, this, this, this unhealthy Demonstration of a negative idea held in consciousness. This thing has been sitting there for eons, forever, for all this time, and it's been sitting there and it's been affecting you and it's been throwing you against the rocks and the stones and doing all this stuff, and yet your regular prayers and your regular stuff and getting them out right, and so this one comes through a different process. This one comes through a different way. If you wanna get off the Legion, we gotta go a different way.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's not so different from knots really Tell us about it and like we were talking about, well, exorcism and getting rid of the quote, unquote, demons and all of that, because it's not that different. It isn't, but it works. And I mean you do OT2 the way he says that you should do it. You do OT3 the way he says that you should do it. Ot3 seems really fantastic when you read it and you're like what? And then you start doing what he says to do and then you start seeing the reeds on the meter and you start picking the stuff up in your space, on your body, and you go, wow, this stuff works. And it's like Lisa said, it's not so different. To me it seems like one is an allegory of the other or vice versa. Thank you, thank you, and I just wanna say that for anybody who is skeptical and that the side to Scientology is a little whack or whatever.
Speaker 1:I used to think so too when I first started. But if you look at across religions, like all over the world, there's so many similarities, I mean, and this you can say is across oceans. So it's not as if, you know, a concept or whatever was brought over to another place, like there's literally, like one of the things, the Tree of Knowledge, throughout. You can look at the. You can just do a quick Wikipedia search and you'll see the Tree of Knowledge maybe has different names and different symbologies, but it's throughout religions, you know, and the same thing with these, with the knots case, the same thing, obviously, with demons and angels and that sort of thing. So it's like it's not necessarily a foreign concept, it's just, I think, where people get tripped up is the whole alien thing.
Speaker 1:Now, the thing is is that if anybody knows like and most people should know how huge our galaxy is, how huge our galaxy is Just our galaxy, and then you look at how many other galaxies are out there, you know, and then there's talk of parallel universes and that and that sort of thing, like it is astronomical and to think that we are the only ones who have ever existed on this tiny little planet, in this big solar system, in this even bigger galaxy, in this huge, huge universe, is a little narrow minded. So you know, the, the, the, the, the. I guess people would be like, well, why haven't they reached out? Well, maybe, who knows? But the point is that I think it's unrealistic to believe we're alone. So if, if for nothing else you know, you can't really pin it down to just say that's it, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, and I think, more importantly than whether or not angels exist, whether or not demons exist, whether or not aliens exist, what I think that we can all agree upon is that we're here right now, right and that, and that we're here right now, we're trying to find our best way forward. I think scripture says in Thessalonians. Thessalonians says work out your own salvation. With fear and trembling, right, you work out your own salvation, yeah, and so. So what we're all trying to do is work out our own salvation or our own survival as we continue on our journey.
Speaker 3:What I will say is that I'm skeptical about comparing the space opera situation or whatever, whatever. I'm skeptical about comparing that to the devil, because, because it is a little bit different, I would say it's more like this have you ever been in a relationship with a narcissist? Right, and you're in a situation with a narcissist, and this narcissist has such a command of your mind, has such a command of your attention, can almost pretty much get a person to do almost anything If they're, if they're good enough, and this person can pretty much control you to a certain extent. This creates this whole idea of co-dependence. You know, this creates this whole idea, and so if one could, with enough narcissistic juice, right, get so many people to drink the Kool-Aid, as it were, get so many people to come in and get on this, this, this spacecraft, get so many people to come in and get taken to this experience oh, we've been going around, you know? Whatever, whatever, get so many people to come in and do what I'm telling you to do.
Speaker 3:To me it's no, it's no different than somebody having that kind of ability or power or bad control, whatever you want to call it to bring somebody into these, these situations. So when you then look at the devil, who is a tempter, who is a deceiver, who is a and these are all the things that scripture refers some of the keel, steal and destroy, and it's not so far-fetched to say, huh, there is a consciousness, there is an awareness that thinks like that, there is a, there is a mindset we call them suppressive persons or whatever. There's a mindset that thinks like that, that can route people up, that can get people in a certain space, that can move people in a certain way. And this is why, in Scientology, it says it's not. I think you have to correct my verbage, jonathan, but we at the church believe that it's not permissible for you know to, to enslave another soul or something like that. How does it go.
Speaker 2:I don't remember it verbatim, but you, you, you. It basically comes down to self-determinism, and you, you can enslave a person or or force them to to have a a reactive mind, which is, you know, a pretty good step in the right direction.
Speaker 3:That that you have freedom freedom of choice.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and so and so, when we are faced with temptation and I was just talking to a client of mine about this James chapter one talks about this. And it talks about these temptations that we're faced with and it says that if you don't overcome these temptations, james chapter one, if you don't overcome these temptations, if you don't get through these temptations from from these temptations, is going to bring you into sin. Sin is simply missing the mark of who you really are. That's what sin is is to miss the mark of who you really are. And then from sin, it leads into death. Death, obviously, we're not just talking about body death, but we're talking about totally losing self. That's what death really is to a thing, because things can't die. So death to a thing is the loss of self, is to become messed. You become so degraded that you're solid, and that is a terrible condition to be in Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's self conflicted, because you, you chose to believe that. Yeah, yeah, it says it right here.
Speaker 3:It says blessed is the man who endorsed temptation. James, chapter one and 12. Blessed is the man who endorsed temptation, for when he has been approved to himself, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love him. Let no one say that God has tempted me, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does God tempt anyone with evil. But each one is tempted when he has drawn away by his own desires and is enticed. So you are doing this to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you are calls, you are putting yourself into this situation. This is why I teach there are no victims. Right, that you are putting yourself through this for whatever reason. You feel like you need to and you're going through all this stuff. But when you endure through that, you get to receive the crown of life. You get to receive the crown, the crown being the crown chakra out to the. You know the upper levels, right, you get to receive the crown of life and you get to come to an awareness of who you really are in all this. I've been through that. You can't get me no more. Have you ever been in a situation? Yeah, I've been through that, baby. You can't, you can't, you can't pull me in with that number. You cute it all, but now I'm good yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and that that comes back to where you know, at the end of the day, anything that happens to you good, bad or indifferent you cause, and you, you cut your own reach or you extend your own reach based off of your willingness to, to have the understanding, the knowledge of what it is, that that you really are and what your capabilities are, and to the degree that you diminish yourself for one reason or another, which is, you know a lot of.
Speaker 2:What Scientology is is all the ways that we entrap ourselves as a being is to the degree that you are no longer a quote, unquote God, but yet something less, and that's, at the end of the day, you know they're, they're, they're not so different in a lot of ways, if, if, if and I think you're, you're and excuse me for using the term interpretation, you're your interpretation of the things that are, that are in the, in the scriptures, are. Well, I mean you, you also have the Scientological understanding of it, whereas it seems to me that there are lots of interpretations to that sort of a thing. The thing with Scientology is is there, there isn't a lot of room for interpretation. It says what it says because it's, it's more specific than in the Bible. That's, that's what.
Speaker 3:I. It operates more along the lines of the physical sciences right.
Speaker 2:Right Of a physical sciences as opposed to well, what could he? What are you thinking by that today? Children type of a thing. It's open to interpretation and but if, if you're already a Scientologist and you read the Bible, you're like, oh, that's that. And, like you said, I do the opposite of what you do. I mean you, you were looking at it through the lens of having that data first and then getting Scientology, and I and I have Scientology first and I view everything through that lens. And then when I hear this stuff, I'm like, hmm, interesting, I didn't know that. You know, these all say something. I'm like, really, yeah, she's got the same thing.
Speaker 2:She, you know it was. It was the Bible before it was Scientology. So it's it's an interesting comparison to to look at it that, and if you, if you have an open mind, one one doesn't shut off the fruits of the other, if you allow that to happen, if you, if you do, and you go into it with a a, a John's viewpoint, you're not going to get very much out of it. I mean, it's a lot of it's student hat data.
Speaker 2:You know, if you're going to be a student, you need to be able to go in there with an open mind and it seems to me that a lot of the things that you've mentioned to to me over time aren't so dissimilar and, and, like Lisa was saying, one of the the videos that's on on YouTube is Zeitgeist one and two, and Zeitgeist one is the is the better of the two, in my opinion. And and they go through and they talk about the tree of life, they talk about Noah and they talk about all of these, these stories, and all of these stories one for one, in these different civilizations across the globe. They all have the same stories, yeah, which is really interesting.
Speaker 3:And I'll say this, in all of LRH's research and all of other LRH's studies, it it would be, it wouldn't be authentic to suggest that in all of this he never picked up the Bible and compared. You know what is this really? What is Legion? What was that? That was going on with that gentleman? You know what I mean, what was going on with with the whole you know Jesus Christ kind of phenomenon, what, who was that? What was that a whole thing about? You know, it would make sense to think that that wasn't even taking a look at in all the research.
Speaker 3:So you know, I think that when we look at it, like you said, more allegorical, when we look at the Bible more allegorical as a book of spiritual, spiritual psychology I don't know the better word to say it I say this the book is not a moral, I'm sorry, the Bible is not a moral book.
Speaker 3:It's a mental book, it's a book of the mind. And if you look at it as a mental book, at each character representing an aspect of one's own journey, when you, when you watch Star Wars, when you watch, you know, the Wizard of Oz and Dorothy, you know there's no place like home. Follow the yellow brick road, you know, going to see the Wiz, like. All of these are stories that are trying to get us to our home universe, our home space, our home place. You know that feels right to us and so that's how I look at it as I go through it, and then when there's as the wisdom comes out of it, then I get to say, oh OK, I can, I can rock with that, I can live with that. I can, I can work with that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It's interesting, because when you say something a moment ago about oh God, I forgot what you said just a second ago. That was a point I wanted to comment on. I can't remember what it is. Now. One thing I'll say about Scientology is that in Scientology independent Scientology we stress study. And so get into the college, study, do your courses, get your student hat done, do these things, because one thing about study that is really important and we stress this in Scientology well, so too does the Bible.
Speaker 3:The Bible says study to show thyself approved, and a lot of people don't know what that means. But it's not saying study so that God loves you. You know, I read my Bible today. That's not what that means. It says study to show thyself approved, or to prove to thyself that I know the truth of what I know. And so when you study, when you get on course, when you get tapped into truth, you now can prove to yourself that I know how to live, I know how to get through life, I know how to handle whatever life throws at me, because I have the right tech, I have the truth that I know of. At that point and at that dispensation, I study to show thyself approved and so then you're not the effect of life but you can be more cause over it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely resonate with what you're saying as well, and I just wanted to touch on how I feel, like at some point in time, like I can't validate this, but this is just a theory I have that the Bible wasn't meant to be other determined, because whenever I read it and I put it like what I said about Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God, all of those things have to do with me and the other person, et cetera, et cetera. It's about the being, not about somebody out there who's making decisions and stuff like that. So when I look at the Bible in terms of that, it is a lot easier to see. For example, like the 10 Commandments right, a lot of people say those are sins against God and you shouldn't be doing them, stuff like that. But when you look at it self-determinately, you can see how killing someone, murder, would be an overt against yourself because you're going to have to live with that conscience and the rest of them as well.
Speaker 1:Stealing, et cetera, et cetera. It's a corrosion of the well. You get more aberrated, and so it is such a huge difference going from growing up in a household that and around people and family members and stuff that were like, well, you've got to be a Christian because we say so Be. Your past expects it. See, god wants it. You're going to hell. It's all other determined. And I never, ever, got any better.
Speaker 1:There was always just a lot of shame around it, a lot of guilt, a lot of fear-based things. But then in Scientology the breath of fresh air was that it was just self-determined, and probably the one exception would be how but this is rather more the church than it is independent Scientology was where you had an ethics officer and you had to report to them and that kind of thing. That was something that I think is a bit other determined in some ways. But if you look at it with an independent Scientology, if there ever was an ethics officer in the independent Scientology, I would hope that they were. They would help the person become self-determined.
Speaker 1:Because, as LRH says, ethics is a personal thing, and I think we touched on this the other day as well. And you just I can't stress that enough and it's the biggest thing that I think people, if you still want to remain a Christian and you do wanna look at the Bible, that's the first thing I would say to you is look at it self-determinedly. Ethics is a personal thing. You're not gonna burn up if you don't do A, b and C. You will only corrode your own spirituality and your own ethics.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that and I think that that's probably why I feel so free in my spiritual journey, right, because I've always looked at the Bible as a. I always looked at my spiritual progress and process as a self-determined thing, like you can't tell me what's true for me, like for nobody, like not my mama, not my pastor in them, like you can't tell me what's true for me, and so I've always looked at it from that perspective and then with that I then I think scripture says that you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Like when you know the truth, or when you have the truth, or when you operate in truth, it'll make you live free, and maybe I'm free, right, and so it feels very good to kind of come from that perspective.
Speaker 2:Absolutely One thing I wanted to ask you and this is something that well, me coming from Missouri and you coming from Alabama, and this is something that you'd see, especially, it's weird, especially when you go north into the northern European influenced states North Dakota, south Dakota, minnesota, wisconsin. I can't speak for Ohio, ohio, I never saw it in Ohio, but what is your thought on the being self-determined and thinking for yourself and then the juxtaposition of that Jesus died for your sins? This is something you see on billboards.
Speaker 3:Ooh, it's good.
Speaker 2:These conservative areas and everything like that. I mean to me that just it seems so contrary, because what it runs up for me from a Scientological standpoint of it is is well, where is sacrifice on the tones again? First of all, and are you using using a and I'm not trying to offend by saying this, but are you possibly using a faux sacrifice in order to make people feel diminished that this guy did this for you and it doesn't seem like that. That's very self-determined.
Speaker 3:Well, it's a bit of a, I'm sorry, go ahead Liz.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to add something along those lines. There's this song I think I can't remember the artist's name, but he. It was super popular a few years back. And the lyrics go Lord, I'm not worthy, not worthy, you fix me, and something like that. And people were singing it all over thinking, wow, this is so great. But if you're constantly telling yourself you are not worthy, you need fixing, how much of an effect is that gonna have on your mental health and yourself?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, I'll say it to both of those points. And growing up Christian, I understand being in a state where that is very real to people being in a place where I do need fixing, right Need for change. I do need to change, I do need some help, I do need fixing and, lord, I can't do this myself. I need you to come in and Jesus take the wheel, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, because that's not self determined.
Speaker 3:Well, right, I think it does bring in the power of choice, but it also brings in what Eleanor H talks about help, right Help and dissemination. I think they help. I think there is something very noble about help. I think there's something very noble about somebody saying I'm here to help you, whomever you are, and I don't have to know you. Jesus took on a very fourth dynamic, and I think that's the kind of viewpoint in the story. But I'll say this the sacrifice part is what kind of really gets me, Because I've always seen it as this Jesus lived for freedom and died with his own self determined and self determined intact, His self determined as an intact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a good self choice yeah.
Speaker 3:He said if it be my will, take this cup from me, but let not my will. I will be done. I'm choosing to go through this. I'm choosing to take this step. I'm choosing to go through all this so that y'all can see what this human, degenerated justice I'm using air quotes. Y'all can't see it, but I'm using air quotes this degenerated justice looks like you know, and why we need such change, why things need to get better, and so this is why ethics are so important. This is why getting one's own ethics in is so important, because if you don't, you're gonna be subject to somebody else's justice right, and it ain't gonna be cute.
Speaker 2:So is that different than you know? He died for your sins. In saying that, what the point was of him? Jc in the story was that he was saying if I can do this, you can do this. That's pretty much what I get out of it. So it seems to me that it's an alteration of what the point was. It's an interpretation that he died for others since no, he was saying look, you're a lot stronger, If I can do this, you can do this.
Speaker 3:He said greater work shall ye do? He said look at all that I've done. Greater work, shall ye do? I used to have a song. I used to say anything Jesus did, I can do better. I can do anything Jesus could do. I used to see this stuff all the time Because he said it. He said greater works are you gonna do? So anything Jesus did, I can do better.
Speaker 2:And so and correct me if I'm wrong, and this is how little I know but this is when he died and then came back and then went through this again. Anyway, right, yeah, isn't that the sequence? Yeah, ok, so yeah, you know that says a whole lot there that if he died and he came back and he's doing this again, he's kind of trying to make a point that you can keep your own personal integrity and if you need be, and if I wanted to come back, I'll come back again.
Speaker 1:What do you guys feel about him saying why have you forsaken me to God when he was on the cross?
Speaker 2:Hmm, that's a good question.
Speaker 3:Lord, why has that forsaken me? Well, because so I've done all this right. I've done what I'm supposed to do. I figured this stuff out, I'm rocking and I'm helping people, I'm doing the right things, and yet I'm up here having to go through this suffering. Haven't we felt that way before, like I'm doing right, I was good, I didn't cheat, I didn't do all this stuff?
Speaker 1:I'd say it wasn't completely self-determined, then he's in in that way.
Speaker 3:Say it again now.
Speaker 1:I'm saying it wasn't completely self-determined then if he went back, that you know.
Speaker 3:Well, it depends on what you consider the Lord to be. So we haven't talked about that, because God is the Lord.
Speaker 2:That was my next question.
Speaker 3:Lord, lord, why has that forsaken me? So the Lord is the law, is the universal law of expansion and increase. If you read Genesis chapter one, god said that there be light. And there was light. And God said trees come forth and animals come forth and God said let us make man and our image and hope it. Genesis, chapter one. But if you go to Genesis chapter two, it says and the Lord God made, so God created, and the Lord God made. And then it says in John, chapter one we just read it before that nothing was made by him. That was not. Nothing was made, except it was made by him. All things were made. So the Lord made, god creates. And so if God is divine mind, universal mind, the substance of all, that is all in all, alpha and omega, beginning and end, first and last, if God is all of that, god has all in God. All things are in that infinity. And that eight dynamic right and the law of consciousness, the law of expansion and increase, the law of unfoldment, says we then make things that are in God, we then make things that God created.
Speaker 3:This phone was a manifestation of the Lord. Hallelujah, praise the Lord, I can talk to y'all in South Africa, right? So when Jesus went through all this stuff and said, lord, why hast thou forsaken me, god? He wasn't talking to the man on a big cloud somewhere in the spaceship, he was talking to the. He was speaking to the law of this law. I thought I figured this out and yet I'm here. What is this about? But you know what he was a little bit. Let me just go through it Right.
Speaker 2:so he was a little consternated about the physical universe.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You know we've all been there. We've all been there and you think you know I've crossed my T's and dotted my eyes, and then entropy hits Right.
Speaker 2:And you're like wait wait, wait, now this can't be happening, type of a thing. So I guess I've always had an MU, because I thought Lord was sort of a title like a king would have. Okay, you see what I'm saying. So I had a misunderstanding and I look at wait, you're explaining it to me and I may be getting this wrong, but it's a little bit like in video games and stuff like that, or magic to gathering. You know where you have mana and you have life life for force and you know the way the actions are set up in Scientology and everything. These are the rules. But you know there's always reverse vector. Lrh talks about reverse vector and in that case Jesus ran into a little bit of reverse vector where he thought things would turn out a little bit differently than it did.
Speaker 1:I guess I think it also depends on what Bible you're using, because in the King James version he literally says my God. So that also has to be taken into account.
Speaker 3:And who is my God? I am the Lord, thy God, and besides me there is no other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 3:I am the Lord, thy God and I have said that ye are gods right. I am the Lord, thy God, and besides me there is no other. Scripture says in Deuteronomy and so in his divinity, in his Godship, in his divine mind, he was like God. God, lord, lord, why has thou forsaken me? God, wait, this is me, this is me and I'm going through this. There's something.
Speaker 3:It's a different viewpoint and don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that there isn't a higher power. So let me be very clear for those of you that if there's a higher power, you rock with a higher power, rock with a higher power, supreme being. I look at it as infinity, infinite intelligence. I look at it kind of more on that perspective. And there's an excellent book called the Impersonal, the Impersonal God, impersonal God, and you look at God as the impersonal thing versus a personality. Because when you look at God as a personality, then you're subject to the whims of that personality, but when you look at God as impersonal, then there's principle. That stands forth. You can live a principle life. You're not trying to appease a sky god, you're actually trying to live a life of principle.
Speaker 1:Well, I still see it as sorry. I still see it, you know, again, in my sort of rendition of it. If you look at God and you take, like, again, God is the mind, and the mind everything's mental, which means everything that we can see, touch, feel, all of that stuff is part of the physical universe. So if you look at it in that way and you interpret what he's saying my God, why have you forsaken me? You can be like, well, the physical universe is in essence forsaking him because he's busy dying. So therefore the physical universe will not be there, which obviously you know. There's the mind, et cetera. The mind goes well, whatever it does when a person dies, I don't know, but that's one interpretation obviously.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, my God, why is that forsaken?
Speaker 2:Well, the other thing is, which I mentioned before, that the Bible was changed by the Romans. Nero, roman emperor Nero, was the one that changed it to Jesus, saying that he was the son of God. So if you take that out, okay you take that out and him saying my God or my Lord, you look at it as well. Maybe and you know, this is just, we're just chatting about this and hypothesizing maybe you know all beings are basically good and he was putting his ethics in in some way that he ended up on the cross type of a thing, and that's what he was saying. But I don't.
Speaker 2:I think you know, just like with anything else, if you have a person that's at one tone level and you have another person that's at a higher tone level and another one's a higher tone level with the chart of human evaluation, you're gonna get different interpretations of the same thing that they read or the same thing that they saw, because their duplication is significantly different from 2.0 to 3.5 to 4.0. And because you're looking at it with different through different lenses. And that's one of the things that I think is super important to take into consideration is that interpretation of these materials depends upon where you're at geographically, the education of the people where you're at geographically, what they're operating off of Like and we haven't even touched the King James version to the more recent version, because the King James version is a little bit more 1.5.
Speaker 1:I just love to see the original, but it's impossible because I think the Pope has that shit locked up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are a lot of books that were in the Bible that were not included in the Bible, and it would be interesting to see what omitted data is in there.
Speaker 3:What.
Speaker 2:You know I mean from a psychological standpoint. You know there's this one.
Speaker 3:Well, that's also why LRH yeah, that's also why LRH was very clear about keeping the technology working right and safeguarding the tech, because it's like when you make alterations to the tech, it'll work as well. Right, when you make these alterations to the tech, it doesn't work when you omit certain things or take out whole datums and lessons and teachings and whatever, whatever. When you take these things out, it doesn't work the same. And so having the full original tech really is something that is sorely needed in mainstream Christianity period, and that's just hands down, because Jesus didn't teach Paulinian Christianity. If you look at the book of Paul Acts, romans, corinthians, glacians, ephesians, philippines, colossians, thessalonians, timothy, titus like the teachings of Paul is what the church goes by now. But Jesus didn't teach Paul. Teaching Paul didn't even meet Jesus. He didn't even know who that was. He saw him. He said he saw Jesus because he was riding on the ass and he said the light of Jesus knocked him off his ass. That's what the Bible says in Acts. That's how he met Jesus.
Speaker 2:Well, when you put it that way, I mean you have to look at it and you have to go. Okay, so it's all a matter of viewpoint of where you were. I mean, it's sort of like prep checking you're suppressed to validate, not as failed to reveal.
Speaker 3:Right, all that.
Speaker 2:All that stuff, because what is it that you're reading? And that's why I think that's why LRH was so vehement about the tactic and everything like that, because you see all of these other things throughout history where, well, one of our auditors in training was just listening to the first lecture on student hat and he said that all societies go by the boards when they fail to educate properly. And this education, the education on the eighth dynamic and the seventh dynamic, are key. And a lot of people look at Scientology as a first dynamic education.
Speaker 2:No, oh gosh, no oh no, it's very much the same yeah yeah, it's very much up at the other end and then coming down type of a thing like an umbrella and that's the way that you have to look at it. We were this auditor training and I were talking and it's so silly how people they want to be spiritual but yet they're racist, for example.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And because of skin color, because of religion, because of where you live and everything like that. But, we're all beings and all this other stuff.
Speaker 3:Gender or whatever. Or gender or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's just so ridiculous that you know the hypocrisy of the whole thing and I think it's important to note that.
Speaker 3:Totally, totally. You know I've been in many of conversations with many Orthodox Christian and we've had these conversations. And you know, for me going to seminary so I'm a seminarian, I went to Bible college Like I know my stuff right and so I'm having these conversations with people and at the end of the day, you don't even have your original tech, like you don't even have your whole, you don't even have the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Like you don't even have the whole thing. You got altered data and you trying to argue the workability of altered data. It's like don't do me. Like we can stay in the book. Now we can stay in the book, but just understand that we're not working with the full tech.
Speaker 2:When it comes to Christian teaching, when it comes to Jesus' teaching, when it comes to Gnostic teachings and I said Gnosticism, sorry, all that- Well, and that's the thing is, it's very much a what is the frame of reference, and focus on what it is that you're looking at, and I freely admit that there are things in the Bible that I use as reference to others, as you would have done unto you, for example, and that falls right into over its own withholds and don't do something to somebody you would wanna have done to you. It's pretty simple and that's really important. There are a lot of great data in the Bible If you take it within the proper I don't know, you might have to help me out with this If you take it from the proper standpoint and you don't try to twist it or interpret it in a certain way. You have to understand enough about it what that data, where it comes from, what the viewpoint is. Lisa.
Speaker 3:Well, I'd love to just-. Lisa summed it up very nicely.
Speaker 1:No, go ahead, you go ahead, it's okay.
Speaker 3:No, I just said you summed it up very nicely when you said if you look at the Bible from a self-determined, if you look at it from it's about self and stop trying to apply it to others, it makes sense Like, oh, this is about me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and along those lines I wanted to go slightly against the grain and just say that it's not as if we're dogging on every other religion and we don't have this stuff in Scientology or anything. The big thing is that, yes, we have the tech, but obviously there's still reactive minds that we have to contend with and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:You know, like.
Speaker 1:so I mean, even in Scientology, there are people you know that I have well have had in my personal life that were Scientologists who won't even let me communicate with them to clear up an air or sea break, and so you know, when it comes to that kind of thing it's like well obviously that ain't bad.
Speaker 1:If yeah, I mean, if we're so good at, you know, communication, and we know about air or sea breaks, and we know about the reactive mind and all that stuff, we should be able to rise above itself determinedly and be like, okay, let's try and fix this. And that doesn't always happen, even in Scientology. So I think it's important to take, you know, an unbiased viewpoint and look, what is the? What is the big problem? It's not religion, it's the reactive mind. That's it.
Speaker 3:That's it. You're a thousand percent right and if we can get that out of the way, we can get a lot accomplished as a people. You know it's interesting because even Scripture says that you know. If you have an offering, you bring it to the altar. It says. But you realize while you're there that you have alt with your brother, you have a grievance with your brother. It says go and make peace with your brother, then come back and present your offering. So you can't even get nothing through to own heart, you can't even get your postulate through because you're so stuck in your own humaneness, you're so stuck in your own degraded thinking ego, whatever you want to call it. You're stuck in all that You're partially. Is that even going to stick? Is that even going to work?
Speaker 1:And that's why people do rudiments before. Why what it?
Speaker 1:is doing before carrying on, you know, with Scientology, because nothing can get through unless those things are sorted out. And also, obviously, this is why there's ethics, tech, then admin, because you know ethics comes first. If your ethics are out and you're having a problem with somebody and that's obviously a present time problem, and they are a sea break, you know all of this stuff and it feels wrong to you because, remember again, it's a personal thing. So you know you have to get that out of the way first in order for you know things like postulates to work and all that. I mean. People are walking around with so much negativity and so much stress and pain and hurt and stuff, and if they, you know, would just instead of, I think and I'm sorry to say this, but instead of believing in a higher power, maybe they should just believe in themselves a little bit too.
Speaker 2:A little bit yeah, and that's why I always say okay sorry, and you know that's what it's about is you have to be able to grant yourself beingness, which brings us back to what we were talking about earlier in the Bible, is you have to grant yourself beingness and you know. Whether you like the expression or not, you yourself are God and you are God-like if you so deem yourself to be. If you deem yourself to be anything else other than that, that is only because you deem yourself to be that other than God-like, and I think that that's one of the key points that the Bible is trying to get across. Again, that's my interpretation of it, but it's a lot of allegories that you have to look at, like you said, and I think the best view point is to look at it from a first dynamic, not on what you could you know. I mean I get you know. It's hard to say do not judge lest ye be judged, but that-.
Speaker 3:I love that scripture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. You know, that's a great first dynamic thing and it's a great third and fourth dynamic thing. But the key note there is do not judge yet yet ye.
Speaker 3:It's about you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's about you. Let's ye be judged.
Speaker 3:No, the full scripture says this judge not, lest ye be judged, for by the manner you measure, a man with you shall be measured by it also, and so you become the effect of your own cause. When you try to judge somebody, on whatever manner you, you try to judge them on that. When they say when you point one finger at somebody, you got three points back at yourself.
Speaker 1:And it also goes on the other flow as well, where you know it's you to yourself. So, like you know, in what ways are you judging yourself?
Speaker 1:Or okay so there was this woman who was gonna do services with us and very, very awesome, dal but she had basically sent a message and she asked look, she's having this problem and she doesn't want to believe that that she isn't a victim of this thing, because it was really painful and you know, and when you look at that kind of thing, like I really sympathize with that, but at the same time, she's giving her power away and because she wants it to be other determined, she wants somebody else to tell her you know it's okay and all of that stuff. But you know, looking back, it's like I'm not a fan of like I want victim shame and I really get it. When people are in pain, they're in pain. However, it's important to realise that when you're going through that, it is somewhat self-determined, because you know there was this. What is that? Because there's this element of you know you're giving your power away and you know like, yeah, Go ahead.
Speaker 2:John, the whole thing about you know why does dynamics work on everybody?
Speaker 2:Is because, well, anybody can be a victim, and anybody can be a victim, and it works because people can agree that you know something was done to them by somebody else.
Speaker 2:But at the end of the day, when you get to the other end of the rainbow, so to speak, you come to realise that being there and communicating is, in fact, the only thing you can be guilty of, and the only person that puts you there was yourself and that came down to the location you chose and the company you decided to keep. But, more importantly, it's the data that you decided to dismiss, or the data that you decided to accept as real or truth, and truth is well, truth can be pretty much anything, but you tend to find the truth is something that you can validate and you can use, and that's why I say that when people say, well, can I be a and still be a Scientologist, yeah, absolutely, because all it's going to do is, if you have things that you find to be true for you, then, yeah, you should keep using that information, because that's true for you, and all Scientology is going to do, and Dynamics is going to do, is allow you to make you a better you and embrace that information and reinforce it.
Speaker 2:And being a victim is not a truth, because that's the polar opposite of a truth is that there is really no such thing as a victim, and I'm not victim shaming either. I'm just saying that if you look at things in the Bible, like what we've been discussing in the podcast today, and you look at Scientology, they really aren't that different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it really isn't. And I really enjoyed this conversation because number one, I think that obviously everybody has their own viewpoint as a as a thing, you have your own viewpoint, but what one thing that LRH says that really stood out to me. He said we're interested in what works and if it works for you and you're happy with your experience of your own spiritual journey, 100%, continue doing what you do. My mother is a very, very big Christian and it works for her until it doesn't.
Speaker 3:And then, when she was about to have a heart attack and she called me I was living in Atlanta, georgia she called me and she says I'm on my way to the hospital. I said what's going on? And she said, oh, I just have these pains in my chest and pains in my heart and it's going into my arm. And she was really very, very scared about what was going on. And I said, okay, okay, get to the hospital, just let me know when you get there. But let me ask you a question what are you again? Because I was. I was like, yeah, she's pretty young.
Speaker 3:I said how old are you? Again? She said I'm 54. And I said, oh, okay, I said, wait, how old was granddaddy when he died of a heart attack. She said he's 56. And I said how old are you? Again, she said I'm 54. And I said how old was granddaddy? She said 56. And she paused and then she just cracked up laughing. She cracked up laughing and her chest stopped hurting and she realized she was doing life continuum. I would 100% use straight wire and I use a hammer from BlueClear's and I totally got out of a heart attack. We're interested in what works.
Speaker 2:Well, that's an example of you know, the differences in the technology from the Bible to Scientology, you know, I think it kind of goes without saying I could just pray for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you could just pray for it and make a postulate, you know that type of thing. But you know they both have their positive uses and they shouldn't be used to make people wrong. Yes, they should be used to make people right, and that you can be right, hcob and everything like that. And I think that that's the important point, you know, to tie this whole thing up with a nice red ribbon, is that there is value in any religion because, well, within reason, obviously that's been around for a long time, because people have used it and it's helped them, and you can invalidate that. But it is interesting to compare these religions to each other, and the Bible being one of the bigger ones, along with the Quran. Well, I think there's. Aren't there more Muslims in the right Christians? Was it the other way around?
Speaker 3:Yeah there's more Muslims in the right Sure.
Speaker 2:So you know there's a lot of truths there and everything, and you should use any truths that you get anywhere that you find to be true for you, whether it's in Scientology or not. Scientology doesn't have all the answers, but it does help you find them, and I think the Bible operates in the same way and I think the Quran operates in the same way, and I've met some incredibly, incredibly gracious granting of being this Muslims, who are the most wonderful people in the world and they give you the shirt off your back and they feed you and house you. And you know Mormons too you name it. I mean there are a lot of beautiful people out there and there's lots of great ways if you have the proper viewpoint on how to live in Scientology and the Bible, or two of them. So we've run a little long on this one, but it's been a really interesting podcast. Does anybody else have anything they want to share before we go?
Speaker 1:This is the last thing and that's that which goes along with the thou shalt not judge. Try not to judge that kind of thing, which is that the greatest overt is making somebody else wrong for their overt. So if something seems like an overt to you, like you know your friend being Christian or Scientologist or whatever, just grant them beingness. You know, just because something might be wrong to you or it doesn't mean it's to them.
Speaker 3:I love that. I'll just say in the words of Jesus. Jesus said that the spiritual man examines, indeed, all things. So if you consider yourself a spiritual person, examine research, dig deep, read a book and see how it helps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't ever stop looking, Don't ever stop learning and be open-minded and be willing to be a student all the time, because as soon as you close off your fruits of observation, down the chute you go. So for Quentin and Scientologist Lisa and myself, jonathan Burke, we hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'll see you next week, namaste, and we love you. Bye, peace.