Is Scientology a bona fide religion or an elaborate scam? This tantalizing question sets the stage for our latest episode, where Quenton Stroud joins us for an in-depth exploration of Scientology, examining the fine line between faith and deception. We dissect the true definition of a scam and weigh it against the practices of the corporate Church of Scientology. The conversation swiftly navigates through the misunderstood term 'cult' and makes intriguing comparisons with other religious beliefs, offering fresh perspectives on how Scientology's reverence for L. Ron Hubbard differs from traditional forms of worship.
Quenton brings his expansive knowledge to the table as we compare the practical application of Scientology's techniques to those of other religions, like Buddhism and Christianity. You'll hear firsthand anecdotes about the transformative power of Scientology's methods, including a heartrending story demonstrating their impact on an individual's battle with brain cancer. We also unveil the controversies within the Church, such as the alleged manipulation of Hubbard's original texts, and take a hard look at the International Association of Scientologists' fundraising activities, inviting you to consider the authenticity of the Church's claims.
We wrap up with a candid reflection on the importance of personal responsibility in the face of any organization's beliefs and practices, especially when it comes to Scientology. The Church's corporate structure, the original teachings, and the freedom of independent practice are dissected, and we encourage listeners to apply due diligence in their spiritual pursuits. This episode promises not just an intellectual journey through the complexities of belief and controversy but also a deeper understanding of the human search for spiritual truth within the enigmatic world of Scientology.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
Take our personality test and get a free evaluation: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHJQ6DY
Is Scientology a bona fide religion or an elaborate scam? This tantalizing question sets the stage for our latest episode, where Quenton Stroud joins us for an in-depth exploration of Scientology, examining the fine line between faith and deception. We dissect the true definition of a scam and weigh it against the practices of the corporate Church of Scientology. The conversation swiftly navigates through the misunderstood term 'cult' and makes intriguing comparisons with other religious beliefs, offering fresh perspectives on how Scientology's reverence for L. Ron Hubbard differs from traditional forms of worship.
Quenton brings his expansive knowledge to the table as we compare the practical application of Scientology's techniques to those of other religions, like Buddhism and Christianity. You'll hear firsthand anecdotes about the transformative power of Scientology's methods, including a heartrending story demonstrating their impact on an individual's battle with brain cancer. We also unveil the controversies within the Church, such as the alleged manipulation of Hubbard's original texts, and take a hard look at the International Association of Scientologists' fundraising activities, inviting you to consider the authenticity of the Church's claims.
We wrap up with a candid reflection on the importance of personal responsibility in the face of any organization's beliefs and practices, especially when it comes to Scientology. The Church's corporate structure, the original teachings, and the freedom of independent practice are dissected, and we encourage listeners to apply due diligence in their spiritual pursuits. This episode promises not just an intellectual journey through the complexities of belief and controversy but also a deeper understanding of the human search for spiritual truth within the enigmatic world of Scientology.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
Take our personality test and get a free evaluation: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHJQ6DY
Hi and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast brought to you by the advanced org of the Great Plains, an independent Scientology organization. I'm here with Quentin Straude. This is episode 11, season seven, and we're going to get started real quick and it's going to be about Scientology Scam, question mark, question mark, question mark and this should get quite a bit of interest on YouTube and everything like that. We're going to go over some of these topics, so let's clear up a couple of definitions here. What is a scam, Quentin? You hear that a lot. It's overused?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really is, and when you really think about it, it's anything that is dishonest in the nature of the scheme. So the scheme of itself is dishonest or it's a fraud in that it doesn't hold true to what it is seeking to do. It's criminal deception is really what it is. So if you're scamming somebody, you're criminally deceiving them in order for some kind of financial gain or something of that nature. So when we asked Scientology to scam, really that's kind of I wanted to kind of phrase it because when you really look at it, your journey, your process is your own and so it's. We can go into that more in depth later, but basically it is a deceptive practice in order to get financial gain.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so let's use that in a sentence. Is Scientology, the corporate church, currently a scam? Okay, that would be one sentence.
Speaker 2:That would be one sentence, yeah.
Speaker 1:I left the Scientology because I felt like it was a scam. That's another sentence. You got one.
Speaker 2:Sure, mr Ponzi scammed a lot of people Right.
Speaker 1:Very good. How do we feel about that? I think we got scammed.
Speaker 2:I feel good about what a scam is.
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, good, this is your introduction to how we clear words in Scientology. Is there any derivation for scam?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's working already. Let's take a look. Yeah, it is so scam. So scam? It says here you know it's a scam. Let me get the derivation of it. It says origin unknown.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, so no derivation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I see so far. Yeah, everything says origin unknown.
Speaker 1:Scamminous from late latin. So there's no derivation. Now this one, I know you know.
Speaker 2:Actually, as I go a little bit deeper into it, it says from the word scam, which is a swindler or a cheater. Is it possibly Possibly the word scam, which is a swindler or cheater, or a cam in Irish, which is a crook? Okay scam or cam. Yeah, a scam or a cam, which is a crook. In Ireland, danish has the word scam, skam or sham, something that's a sham, right, right, it doesn't hold up. Okay, it was a sham of a wedding.
Speaker 1:So they're all very similar. A mockery, something false on false pretenses, right, okay, and I know you know this one cult.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I take the definition of cult very literally, right, and I know a lot of people when they use words they don't really know the definition of the word. But a cult is defined as a system of religious veneration or devotion dedicated towards a particular figure or object.
Speaker 1:Ain't nothing wrong with that I can make a few cults.
Speaker 2:That works Right. It's a.
Speaker 1:Christian church.
Speaker 2:Right Dedicated towards a particular figure or object, like, okay, you want to use that in a definition.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, you know, let's get some examples, Some more examples. Would you say that Vedic is a cult Vedic?
Speaker 2:what Vedic, Well as far as the Hindu Veda. Yeah, the Hindu Veda.
Speaker 1:Would you say that that's a cult?
Speaker 2:No, no, that would be definitely a religion. A cult typically has a popular focus. We adore this person, we worship this person, we are all about following this person, and whether the figure is physical or non-physical or whatever, but the idea is that if it's, it becomes its own. The word cult is really is Latin for worship, that's what it? Means.
Speaker 1:And great Well. So in your instance as a Jehovah's Witness, being a Jehovah's Witness, you know when you want to talk about your Lord and Savior, jesus Christ. Is that a cult? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm curious.
Speaker 2:No, but by definition, anytime you put something or someone as the focal point of your worship cultist Latin that would be by definition a cult. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what would be another cult?
Speaker 2:Another cult where you again, when you look at the Catholic Church, the Pope, when you look at the, what was the cult in Waco at the time? The man Jim Jones.
Speaker 1:Well, jim Jones was in the late 70s down in Central America, central America.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he went down to Honduras and where it was Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would be a cult.
Speaker 2:But the Jim.
Speaker 1:Jones cult, that would be a cult. He was a central, he was about his figure. Yeah, so David Koresh, David Carrera, I guess David Carrera, I guess Michael yep, yep, I forgot his name. What about the Baptist religion? What do Baptists believe?
Speaker 2:So, again, if it's focused on one particular personality, person, then it would be cultish or a cult, because we're worshiping that. So, yes, so in other words, there was a network of Satan worshiping cults, right? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:How about Muslims? Or in Vietnam, thailand? Either one of those, because Buddhism is huge in Thailand.
Speaker 2:Right. Buddhism does venerate, by definition, venerate and do devotions. But the difference with Buddhism, in my opinion and based on and I've studied Buddhism, but I'm not a Buddhist the difference with Buddhism is that Buddhism teaches that you are your own Buddha, you are a Bodhisattva, which is kind of our version of clear right. It would be like you're a Bodhisattva, so the whole process of you becoming a Buddha. So it's not about worshiping somebody sitting up on our lotus tree or whatever. It's about you doing your process to become your own Buddha. Okay, buddha is a state of being, not a person.
Speaker 1:So does the Muslim faith. Does this correlate into as a?
Speaker 2:Again, we have Muhammad being venerated, not worshiped. Muhammad is not worshiped in Islam, but he's definitely venerated. And then we have the worship of Allah, which is not a person, so that wouldn't be a cult necessarily.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we got some comparable magnitudes then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because although they venerate Muhammad, they don't worship Muhammad.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:So it's different between venerating and worshiping Jesus Right.
Speaker 1:Right, okay. So, as we know, we're independent Scientologists, we're not corporate church Scientologists. So if I said to you do you worship El-Ran Hubbard? What would your answer be Absolutely not, absolutely not. And I would say the same thing I don't worship El-Ran Hubbard, nor do I worship Zinu. Somebody posted that a couple of times on our comments on YouTube. There's no.
Speaker 1:Praise Zinu? There's no. When somebody says, do you worship Zinu and you worship Zinu, or something like that, I know that that's a person that doesn't know their ass from the whole underground Because they don't know anything about this. Totally ignorant, totally ignorant.
Speaker 2:So even what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Now again you said this another podcast Ignorant. What's that? Real quick, let's clear this up. What is ignorance.
Speaker 2:So ignorant is, by definition, lacking knowledge or awareness, in general uneducated and unsophisticated. Okay, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if one said that Scientology worships El-Ran Hubbard, that's the subject of Scientology, church Scientology. They don't worship El-Ran Hubbard anymore. They worship David and the scavenger.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll say this. So veneration, if you look at, if you click the word veneration, veneration does mean to holding great respect or reverence.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So they venerate him, that's for sure. There's definitely great respect.
Speaker 2:There's definitely great respect in the field of Scientology that we respect El-Ran Hubbard as one who took the time, the effort, the energy to do the research and then hand it down to us as somebody who can now apply something and use it, just like I would greatly respect Alexander Graham Bale for helping us come up with a telephone, or who did the like Benjamin Franklin with a light bulb Like, oh yeah, we definitely hold these people in great respect. Web DeBose or anybody who is a great regenerator of something yeah, I'm going to respect you, but worshiping or deifying somebody is something totally different, right, and so El-Ran Hubbard is not a deity.
Speaker 1:He said I'm just a man. That's what he said, it's in his writings and a policy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, el-ran Hubbard is not deified, is not worshiped. There is great respect for El-Ran Hubbard, but, again, all of these things are something to consider when you ask the question. You know, is Scientology a cult? So, although that's not the topic of this conversation, we could talk for hours about what a cult is and what it's not, but we're really talking about scam.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because when you really look at it, a scam being again a scam, somebody who is a crook, somebody who is, you know, whatever, like, when you think about a scam, you're thinking about a dishonest scheme. Yeah, so how do we wrap our minds around whether anything is a scam? Right? So I take my car down to the mechanic and, for all intents and purposes, I believe that the mechanics that's working at this shop are qualified, educated, to do the work that they say they can do for me. Right? If they're not qualified and not educated to do the work and get the result that I want, then I would say, oh, you scammed me, you made me believe that you were qualified, you made me believe that you were educated enough, you made me believe you knew how to get the result.
Speaker 1:Right, right. In other words, a scam is where you're saying I'm going to do this for you as a service, or this will do this for you and I'm giving you the information to do this, and if it doesn't, it qualifies as a scam by a scamster or scam Okay.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So, in line with that, how does Scientology's ideology and practice compare to other religions or cults? Okay, so in independent Scientology, scientology the subject okay, not Scientology the corporate church, where things have been altered and they're incredibly expensive, and so on and so forth, which we covered in another podcast when you're comparing things, let's say you go to the Catholic church and you go in and pray and you attend Sunday services, maybe Wednesday. Oh, you better stop. You go in and you attend services and you say, okay, I'm making a prayer or prayers at this point in time and you're learning the gospel and I'm not knocking the gospel. We talked about that just recently in one of our other podcast oh yeah, the gospel is gospel, I'm not.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's a lot of great data in there, but the thing is is that if you're making somebody else responsible for things that are going on in your life, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't work. Now, in Scientology, you're given the data. If you do this, you do this, you do this, you do this. You'll get this every time Right and the two different methodologies completely Go ahead Right.
Speaker 2:And it's been vetted in the sense of let's go over this multiple times, let's make sure what we're saying is true in its application right Results. When you look at the word result, result really is the outcome or the consequences or effects of something. So if I do these things, the result is that right. If I hit the domino, the next domino is going to fall. The next domino, all things being in alignment, all things being done correctly, all things being applied the way we need to apply them. If I hit this domino and they all lined up right, it's going to, they all are going to fall. It's going to be a beautiful you know seeing other things on V2, but when you're like yeah, yeah, right big swirl.
Speaker 2:And it's wonderful when it happens right.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and you can get results in any faith. Yes, any faith. I mean, I'm not going to deny that. I've seen that, I've seen, you know miracles happen and all this stuff. The only difference is we have our explanation based off of our terminology, which we have an entire dictionary on in independent Scientology. Scientology, the subject and the church has altered theirs to where you can't even use a dictionary in the course room because they've dumbed it down to where the only different definitions that you need are the definitions that they give you.
Speaker 2:And the glossary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're getting a little Fahrenheit. Four, five, one ish there, Ray Bradbury and other other religions and does does Joe's witnesses? Do they have a dictionary?
Speaker 2:You know, not in the, not in the kingdom hall. Okay, like you have one at home now. We are encouraged, I'll say this we were encouraged, when reading the Bible, to have a dictionary and a concordance Bible handy so that if you come across the word, you understand, but you look up words to make sure you understand what they say. But the new world translation of the Bible, which is the Bible that is used it was used in order to make the verbiage more clear to modern English the new world translation, not the KJV or whatever.
Speaker 1:Okay, so if we, if we, if you don't mind me asking and I don't want to put you on the spot here Would you, would you say? Would you say you got results in while you were being a Jehovah's Witness?
Speaker 2:I got results that I was looking for. Right, I got results that I was looking for I didn't get. I can't say that yet, but I would say I didn't get everything that was promised. But I can't say that yet because they probably turn our life so right, right so well, and that's not so. That's not a paradise Earth.
Speaker 1:Right. That's not so dissimilar to what we're striving for in Scientology, which is your, your, your quote, unquote. And this isn't isn't said in Scientology, but I'm just dumbing it down for the sake of the podcast it's your spiritual, your spiritual eternity and how your, your next life. We believe. We believe in past lives, though it's not something that we strive for. It just happens when you get auditing that eventually realize these are my hands, but it's not the body that I was in. This person in the mirror is me, but I don't look like what I do now. So it's, you know, it's a new, a new meat puppet, so to speak. So they're not so dissimilar there.
Speaker 1:So when we come back to scam and we come back to cult, a cult is not a scam. A scam is not necessarily a cult. They're, they're, they're mutually exclusive. So so you know you can, you can get results in anything and, in comparison, you can get results out of anything. The difference for me in Scientology, the subject and independent Scientology, is that it's an applied, it's a scientific applied method. That's also a philosophical viewpoint, and Hubbard called the religion at one point. He said it wasn't back in in 5354 and then it had to be in order to stop persecution from taxation and things like that, which is fair Because it it is a religion, if you deem it to be, but that brings us to that's not so dissimilar, just does. Does Jehovah's Witness, do they have a? Do they suffer taxation in the US?
Speaker 2:No, there's a.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there there's.
Speaker 2:But the organization is a taxes organization. 5193. However, there's Jehovah's Witnesses don't have a clergy, in that the individual, like there's no pastor that doesn't pay taxes or there's no whatever, like like everybody pays taxes in Jehovah's Witnesses, except the organization is a 521 c3 tax exempt organization same thing with you. You could be the highest president, ceo, whatever you see you, but you could be the highest of the highest, you still paying personal income tax.
Speaker 1:Right. Same thing with the church of Scientology, same thing with right. Yeah, independent Scientology, independent Scientology organizations they could file for it, but I doubt that they would get it. So that's that. Yeah, I don't know if anybody that has that in the infinite field. So there are a lot of, a lot of parallels here as far as how to Scientology ideology and practice compared to other religions or cults. Now that brings us to how to Scientology recruit and retain members. My experience on that is somebody says, hey, read a book, this is great. And the person says, yeah, I agree with this, I've applied this and it works. So that's, that's no different than Jehovah's Witnesses or Baptist or Muslims or Buddhists, and it is. Is they recruit people for staff? They don't recruit people. I mean, the church goes out and they, they, they give out tickets for lectures or used to and it was very successful in the 70s. They ask you to come in and watch a film, ask you to take a personality test. That's really not any different than Jehovah's Witnesses, who?
Speaker 1:or Mormons who, who go out on what is it Mormons call it when they go out on a?
Speaker 2:mission. They go on a mission on a mission.
Speaker 1:Same thing, okay, so. So there's a lot of similar. I think it's two years to yeah, two years is a mission every, every male at the age of 18.
Speaker 2:Yep Signs up for mission.
Speaker 1:That's right. I had some very close friends who were Mormons and there's some of the sweetest and nicest, most giving, caring people ever want to meet.
Speaker 2:I use to study. I used to study with the Mormons in Thailand and they were Americans, but they were doing mission in Thailand and I had wonderful, wonderful conversations. It was very interesting looking at their Christology and how Jesus, after you know, dying and is Jerusalem going over to the Americas and doing his work in the Americas. It was very interesting as the layout but yeah, I mean again, when you talk about scamming someone, you're talking about being this honest in nature, right, this honest in nature, and creating a dishonest scheme in order to defraud and or take something from somebody without giving them an exchange, without giving anything back again a Ponzi scheme, which is a scam, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and it's when you look at the corporate church Scientology, they they presented as the works of Elron Hubbard, with alterations. They're not using the original, the original texts. So to me and I'm going to cross a line here for people who might be in the church listening to this podcast, and they'll probably click, click off is out. Lrh said don't change my stuff, keep it the way that it was meant and that's all there is to it. The church changes that stuff and they don't tell you that they're changing it and they've done this four or five times over the last few decades, depending on what we're talking about, at least before, sometimes five. And they're altering the lectures, they're deleting things from the lecture. So there's, there's a tremendous amount of change. And they're also well, they're closing organizations and combining them now, which is a policy that said the LRH says that is an active treason to do that. They're currently doing that in Paris. They're combining celebrity center Paris with Paris org and putting it into one.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's a prime example where it's so clear it's not even funny. It's the first thing in the policy says to do so is an active treason, okay. So there we go, we've got, we've got changes. That's fraud. That, to me, falls under falls under a scam, because you're not, yeah, you're not, you're not presenting.
Speaker 2:You're not presenting what was what you said, what you're saying. You're being presented and the interesting part is this, and the part I really stood out to me is that the changes are not Necess, they're not policy, in that LRH realized something wasn't really working the way he wanted it to or what we were supposed to, and they had to go back and make corrections and change things or whatever that happens with any organization, right. But when you're making these changes because the copyright ran out, you know what I'm saying Like the copyright you know, or whatever.
Speaker 2:the copyright has been 60 years and the copyright no longer, you know or whatever, like oh no, we need to change this in order for the copyright to start again. That's a different reason to change, to alter it is something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and the primary thing is they're presenting it as the original works, but they're not telling you anymore. It used to be at the top of the bulletins and the policy letters, which LRH would call a data trail. They used to say revised in this script at this point in time to fix, and they've taken that out and they've changed these things and, like Hubbard says, the hardest thing to spot is the missingness, is it's completely different in some areas, not all areas, but in some areas. Enough that any change is unacceptable per Hubbard's viewpoint. So why did you do this? They don't tell you so. Therefore, that's fraudulent to me. So that's a problem. Now that brings us to are there any documented benefits of Scientology practices?
Speaker 2:Well, I wanna talk a little bit more about the membership side, recruiting membership side too, because there is something in Scientology that, even as independent Scientologists, we still definitely use, which is called the dissemination drill. Right, and really the whole point of the dissemination drill is to get a person who might be dealing with some kind of problem right. You make contact, you handle any ruin, you handle any confusion that one might have, any misinformation that one might have or whatever. You expose the ruin and you give them a solution right, and so when it comes to dissemination, it really is. Helping people is what that's really. I think.
Speaker 2:You said give them a book or read a book, and, oh, I agree with this, and now I can study Scientology.
Speaker 2:Well, that's true, but if we're out in the real world so, for example, when I was in National Institutes of Health in Maryland and I saw somebody who really needed help because he was dying of brain cancer, like it was not it wouldn't end me to say, oh, just read this book and see how it goes right. It's like I wanna apply some Scientology to you. I wanna handle your ruin in this moment and by being able to actually use Scientology to get the result and literally seeing this man within less than an hour, being gray and jaundice and all discolored to be sitting up and eating his eggs and asking for hot sauce to put on his eggs. Like I can see the. You contact a person, you handle them, you present, you know, help with the ruin or whatever, whatever, and you give them the help that they need. That's helping a person become a Scientologist if they choose to continue their journey. If not, at least you got some help and now you can eat your eggs.
Speaker 1:Right, so they got something from it.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's the whole thing is. You know there are documented benefits of the practices, so there's lots. You get it on a gradient. You learn how to do one thing and the next, and the next, and the next, and then you apply it. If you do what he says, you'll get what he says you get. It's that simple. Yeah, that's not any stretch. And you know, that's something I've never seen in any other religion where you know you're at cause over it.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, that's so interesting to use that phrase because to me, that's really what a religion should do, Right, it should put you in a place of you being a free will, being self-determined, and I'm able to now live the life that I choose to live in alignment with what I believe or in alignment with who I know myself to be. I'm able to now live in alignment with that more fully. If you have something that's constantly causing you to have to, you know, throw money in a collection, pass it or whatever, whatever, in order to, you know, get some favor, you know what difference is that then, you know, let's sacrifice a virgin to appease the gods, Like there's no difference, except, you know, we put a modern day twist on it. So all I'm saying is is that I like what attracted me to Scientology the study of as a Bible believer, as a person who came up into that viewpoint, it was something that I could do, this and see the manifestation of what I'm applying, what I'm practicing, and that felt really good to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you can get the desired results from it as quickly as you want, and once you know how to do it, it's yours in perpetuity, in perpetuity.
Speaker 2:When I was living in my car broke. What do you say? Broke is a joke. Broke is a joke.
Speaker 2:When I was living in my car, I called one of my Scientology contacts and I said I need something. I need something because this ain't working. I live in my car. I'm not able to get out of this seat. I don't know how I'm gonna get out of this situation.
Speaker 2:I called my mother to ask, for I heard a co-sign with me on an apartment. She wouldn't do that. I was like okay, I don't know what I'm gonna do. So he read to me some references. I took notes and it was basically on the stats looking at my stats and the ethics and formulas, formulas for living and the whole bit.
Speaker 2:He read to me some references, not asking me to sign up for anything, not trying to sell me or read me on a course. I just needed help, right, and I put into play the references that he gave me the formulas and the whole bit and literally I was able to move out of living in my car to I got an upstat and now I'm in my friend's attic. I was sleeping in the attic on a twin size bed and then from an upstat to that to having a friend of mine literally give me her apartment, like she paid all the bills and everything and she gave me her apartment to then getting my own place and actually having a three story house to live it in my car, and so I was able to step it up and just continue getting the wins after wins after wins after wins, just using the reference that this person read to me over the phone and say do this and it'll get you out.
Speaker 1:And that's pretty unusual for a scam, that is pretty unusual.
Speaker 2:That's pretty unusual for a scam. That's off definition of a scam. Yeah, yeah, so that's some of the benefits of Scientology practices.
Speaker 1:You apply it, you get what he says. You get Pretty straightforward. Now, how transparent is Scientology and its financial administrative operations? As far as the church of Scientology is corporate church there's been a lot of people who have been to the church, there's been a lot about that and we covered it in the IRS podcast and everything like that. Well, the church didn't win the war with the IRS. The IRS took the church over. Basically is what happened.
Speaker 1:And now it's run by a bunch of non-Scientologists with David Miscavige as the figurehead and they have tax exempt status and but their parishioners don't get to. They don't get the joys that the corporate church does. They still have to pay a significant amount of taxes when they do services, for example, and that was something they weren't very transparent about when they said the war is over, we've defeated the IRS, all that stuff. Now in the independent field, you deal with an independent audit or an independent organization. You know, do your due diligence, ask your questions, get it in writing all of that and look at the success stories, get some references, talk to people, that sort of thing. But the church itself has run into a lot. The corporate church has run into a lot of issues with financial administrative things. If we get into the Lisa McPherson thing and what happened there and how they covered that up, that type of thing. So that's again. I think that airs in the direction of fraud.
Speaker 2:Myself. Well, you know I can understand that I don't know much about a lot of the big controversial things about the corporate church of Scientology, so I can't really speak to those. But what I'll say is this, and I don't mean to sound like I'm flipping in how I say it it takes two to tango. It takes two to tango.
Speaker 2:And so I believe and I work with the ideology that you're never a victim right. Everything that happens to you happens through you, and so for me, I have been scammed. I have been scammed once, and the time that I was scammed I was 19 years old. I was in Atlanta, georgia, and I go up to this convenience store and this guy has a little table and he has these three little walnut shells have some walnut shells and he has a little red ball. He has a little red ball under the walnut shells and he's moving them around the table and you could spot where the little red ball is. You get the money right and so you put some money in and I did this thing.
Speaker 2:I lost my whole mutts rent on this scam. And it was a scam of the little red ball thing because, not knowing that he would lift up the shell, he would pick up the ball with it, right, and it became a thing right. So he was like, look, follow the ball, follow the ball. So that was a thing I wasn't able to get my money back because a girlfriend of mine came when she had a knife as long as my arm, like a machete, and she was like, if he don't give that boy his money back, I'm gonna chop you up, and she threatened him and he gave me my money back, but I'm saying that the same is that I was there and I communicated with this person, Right, yep? And so I was scammed. For that reason, I'm trying to see, and I'm really here, I'm trying to see this, I'm trying to understand how you get scammed with Scientology.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to see how that might work.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's where due diligence comes in. Is it's only a scam if you allow yourself to be scammed with the corporate church of Scientology? And that's where they try and shut people off from the benefits of observation and say don't get on the internet. You know all these negative things and all this jazz and it's like, well, you know there's negative, you can, you can find negative things about any, anything. Walmart, sure, but you know, is Walmart a scam? You put it into Google.
Speaker 2:Walmart's a scam.
Speaker 1:You know. I mean, you know it's so it's. It's a matter of doing your due diligence and saying, okay, so what? What would be the best option be? Well, our viewpoint is, your best option would be to be an independent Scientologist, as opposed to being a corporate sheep Scientologist and dealing with, like the IAS, the independent Association of Scientologists which is not something that Hubbard ever sanctioned and as a separate and entity from the church, corporate church of Scientology completely and as a slush fund with a tremendous amount of money that's been put in it.
Speaker 1:And they go around and tell their parishioners Scientology is going to end tomorrow If you don't give us some money. We need your help and and and people believe it and they give them money and that's a scam. That's a scam because they've been saying this and I know this. I know when they started it back in the eighties, they were saying the same thing and I confronted them about it in the early 2000s and I said you've been saying this for over 30 years and it's never happened and it's suppressive. How dare you? That's a scam. That's a scam with three shells and a ball, mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:So you keep moving the ball.
Speaker 1:Right, you keep moving the ball and you keep changing the books and you say, okay, well, what was wrong with the books that I bought before? Oh well, we found out that, you know, the typist was suppressive and they invented this. And are you telling me that Elron didn't read his own books?
Speaker 2:Hold on a second, but I wouldn't have bought a new book. That's the thing, I guess that's my thing. I'm telling you that's my thing. Listen, if the book I got ain't working, then I'm just going. What am I supposed to do? Because I'm not buying another set of books? I just wouldn't do it. And I guess I'm trying to understand, like, the gullibility of it all.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm not going to call anybody gullible, because I don't think that. I think that people do what they know that they should do. What I'll say to that is is that why? Why any business? If any business? If you brought my pasta out to me at Olive Garden and I asked for no bacon and they had bacon on it, I wouldn't pay for a new plate of pasta.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Fix my pasta.
Speaker 1:Right, bring it back without bacon Right.
Speaker 2:Right. So if I paid for a book, this is me. Now it's just me. I ain't talking about nobody or their mama. If I paid for a book and you didn't put what you were supposed to put in there, bring me a new book out.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That's what I say Now. Am I wrong?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, the original books were the original books and they've been getting changed for decades and they keep reiterating. And then they said you know, throw out all those other books, burned the books. They burned lectures, original master tapes of Elron Hubbard's. They burned them in mass to get rid of the evidence of the alterations. This was. This was verified by a class 12 auditor who saw it verified. Okay, so that's. That's scammy to me, when you go changing things and you don't tell people about what it is that you're changing and you tell them that they have to get rid of their old stuff and buy new stuff, otherwise they can't become, they can't be a member and you're not allowed in the church. This is what happens in the corporate church of Scientology. Independent Scientologists don't do that. We give you the originals, so right.
Speaker 2:And for me go back to what you said about due diligence, because for me it was. I was very versed in LRH references and so anybody who tried to rage me like save with AIS or whatever. I did sign up for AIS once and that was years ago, but I never really reapplied. I never signed up again for the membership.
Speaker 2:But, but I'm saying that to say that for me, I had so much knowledge about LRH references that I could tell you, wait a minute, that ain't what they said there, because I remember reading that and it said, or I would say, show me the reference, I would love to see it.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, show me writing Right, and nine times out of ten. They would keep trying to enlighten me Right. They would keep trying to enlighten me on what's what or whatever it could be, but I just didn't. I don't know how I would handle that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, if it isn't written, it isn't true. I mean, the verbal tachycal estate COB says if it isn't written, it isn't true and it also states the original one which they've altered. States to the person who is who has put this in writing or is telling you about this that it's in writing. Have the authority to issue it. That's the thing you need to know is who's saying what. Well, hubbard wrote it. He's the one.
Speaker 1:That's where that's at, and they went and altered that particular HCOB to where it's completely different. Now I mean that's a biggie. So that's something where you have to really do your due diligence and get in there and find out what is true and what is not true, because if it's hidden and it's just been removed, hardest thing to spot as a missing is you don't know. That you don't know and that is what they prey on with people is the normal turnaround with people in Scientology, as they last about two years and then it's a new cycle, it's a new person and it's a new person. You get all these young people that are joining staff, joining Seawork and everything, and they don't know what it was originally like. They just believe in whatever they're told because that's the newest thing and that's all they know, right? That's fraud. Yeah, you're dealing with a complete different iteration. That's not Eddie Murphy. That's an imposter. He's not fraud.
Speaker 2:Right, and it would be different if they change the name into something else. So, in other words, if LRH said this is Scientology, don't change it. And then they change something, and then they change it to a miscavachology or use of something else.
Speaker 2:But yeah, okay, I'll work with something different. Okay, no problem, that do you. But you know everybody got to hustle. But if you are gonna say that this is what it is and this is what it's always should have been, or the way things should have been, I can't wrap my mind around it.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and that's the problem If you don't know that, you don't know well, you might be getting scammed. So that's board due diligence is the key thing. So that brings us to how does Scientology respond to criticism?
Speaker 2:controversy Not very well, I wanna say this Scientology the subject okay Does. It's very, very transparent and very easy on criticism and controversy. So, number one, we all know that Scientology is controversial in and of itself and LRH talked a lot about it and he talked about it in, I think, one of the books where he said that this is not a political I think it was self-analysis this isn't a political thing, it's not a political jaunt, right, and so controversy, I think, and the word and warfare of what Scientology is, because it is something very different than what has been presented to the world by and large. But as far as criticism Scientology, the subject is very clear. Take a look.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all right there and writing and you can see it for yourself. It's not hidden away somewhere that you know you have to go to some secret library, so on and so forth. But the policy says what the policy says and the response is that the corporate church gives do not follow policy, because he says if you deliver what's promised you won't have any problems. And the reason why the church has the problems that they have is because they're not delivering what's promised. It's that simple.
Speaker 2:Which sounds like a scam, which sounds like a scam.
Speaker 1:All right. So that brings us to enclosing. Are there any allegations or proven cases of illegal or unethical practices within Scientology, the corporate church of Scientology? Yes, many, many, many.
Speaker 2:Unethical practices. Yeah, things that should not be is what we say, things that should not be. And somebody putting their hands on your body without your permission or consent should not be right. Somebody forcing you to do something against your own self-determinism should not be Like. So these things are definitely there, and I think that, when we talk about independent Scientology, one thing that I love about stepping into where we are now is that number one, we're ahead of the curve when it comes to technology, so this allows us to now be in two totally different countries and yet still you auditing me to give me the wins that I need going up the bridge, and that's something that we don't create. The barrier of space now right, we don't allow the barrier of space to be a thing. It's one of those barriers to have to deal with.
Speaker 2:The fact that, with ALGP, the rates are very reasonable, right, which means that we know that this is something that is reachable for the average person working a full-time job. Like you can do this right.
Speaker 1:It's conceivable that you could go the whole way and not break the bank and double mortgage your house and borrow grandma's retirement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it feels good to know that the average person with a full-time job can actually do what they need to do in order to be better. And, like I said before, even in my experience, go up and, up and, up and, up and up in your accomplishments and achievements and abilities so that you can have more as you continue to go up the bridge, so it just becomes a lot better. And then I'll say the last thing when it comes to Scientology, the practice or the study of the actual working of Scientology, the subject, right it is, or it contains a body of ethical, the subject of ethics is contained in the study of Scientology. So, with it being unethical, then it makes sense when it comes to the study of Scientology, the subject of Scientology, because it contains a whole book and or series of lectures and a whole bit about ethics being the main thing.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. So and that's a very important part is that you're looking at an incredible body of data and that it can take you years to read it all, even if you're studying 10 hours a day. I mean, the St Hill Special Briefing Course is mostly reading and listening to transcripts. Listening to lectures and transcripts takes a year full time just for those 425 lectures. So you're looking in the neighborhood of five or six years to learn all of the data that's there and if you use it, you apply it, you'll get the result. That's not a scam itself. You just have to make sure you understand what it is you're reading, clear your words, get checked out on things to make sure that your understanding is consulted and that you can then apply.
Speaker 2:Well, let me ask you so, okay, you just gave a big chunk of the apple right. So, for example, this one St Hill Special Briefing Course being a whole year of study right, mm-hmm. And if you apply what you're learning, you can see it, you can operate with it, you can get the results of it. Some of that? So is college a scam? Ha?
Speaker 1:Well, you can.
Speaker 2:I used to work with PhDs at McDonald's Because I couldn't get a job Because you can't get a job with it, Like you're getting the result of what you said you were supposed to get.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's a very narrow thing.
Speaker 1:I don't know man, if you have a PhD and if you can't get a job with it and then you have to pay, you've got a mountain of debt for it. Well, that mountain of debt supersedes, absolutely supersedes, what it would cost in independent Scientology to get that training and then you could go out and you could do anything that you wanted to with this information. It's not that you just have to become an auditor. You can go out and start a business, you can become a CEO. You can go out and help people in a myriad number of other ways and make an excellent living with it.
Speaker 1:It isn't just this narrow, myopic thing. It can be applied to anything in life. That is not something to do with many other spiritual practices. It is completely different in that wise. So to wrap that up for us, you're gonna have to do your own due diligence. You're gonna have to do your own research. Don't take our word for it. Talk to us, get in touch with us, get our opinion three sides to every story yours, mine and the truth and you're gonna have to, per the Scientology Code of Honor, keep your own counsel. And this is where people go wrong and they blame the corporate church for what's been done to them and you and I both are of the same viewpoint that there's no such thing as a victim.
Speaker 1:You were there, you were communicating. You chose the people that you decided to work with, and that's the thing. Know your tone, scale, understand how the different personalities do different things. Read the science of survival and learn how to pick your people and who to stay away from. Apply that technology. Learn about the basics affinity, reality, communication and understanding the ERC triangle knowledge, responsibility and control KRC triangle. Make up your own mind. Don't let anybody tell you that Scientology, the subject is a scam. Make that distinction Corporate church of Scientology, scientology the subject, independent Scientology. Those last two are the closest two things, but you still have to do your due diligence and find out for yourself, because you don't know what you don't know until you find out. Getting communication, win in doubt. Communicate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, communicate. And let me be very clear I am very open to communicating with anybody on the subject and other subjects too, but particularly on the subject of Scientology because, again, 22 years practicing Scientology and outside of the church and just coming to an awareness that if you have questions you can get honest answers. You can get honest answers from people who know what they're talking about and once you have that good two-way communication we do say communication is the universal solvent. So once you have the good communication, you can solve your conundrum, you can solve your problems, you can solve the question of whether or not this is something that you should pursue for yourself and I welcome you guys to reach out. I definitely do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's absolutely the truth. I feel the same way.
Speaker 1:So, we're gonna wrap this up a little over 45 minutes, probably 50, 55 minutes somewhere in there. We really appreciate you listening to the podcast and check us out at aio-gporg For more information. We also have what's called the Oracle. If you do a major service, we have almost all of the lectures transcripts on there, all of Hubbard's writings all searchable, and you can have a conversation with the AI, similar to chat, gpt 4.5, and we're not hiding anything from you on that. You've got access to the information. You can talk to the whole library if you want to. This is something the church doesn't even have, so it's not hidden away, it's for you and it's there and we want you to use it and know it. So for Quentin Stroud and myself, we really appreciate you being here and we will see you very, very soon with another podcast, very interesting subject coming up next time. We'll keep that a secret. Take care, everybody, namaste, and we love you. Bye-bye, peace.