SE7EP19 - He met LRH and Quentin Hubbard - His Story

Ed, our Class 8 auditor guest from a phone interview in April of 2020, pulls back the curtain on a life enmeshed in the glitz of the Sands Hotel's golden era and the enigmatic world of Scientology. His story is no ordinary tale; it's a rich tapestry of celebrity encounters, mob whispers, and the pursuit of spiritual freedom. As he recounts his days of training under the watchful eye of L. Ron Hubbard and the Guardians office to the tragic narrative of Hubbard's son Quentin, you'll find yourself transported to a time when the stakes were high both at the casino tables and within the secretive corridors of the Corporate Church.

Our conversation with Ed doesn't shy away from the gritty realities of an existence straddling two formidable institutions. Witness the unexpected parallels he draws between managing a top-tier casino operation teeming with mob influence and steering the disciplined teams within Corporate Scientology. Ed's reflections on authority and transformation provide a sobering look at the personal cost of ambition and the haunting consequences of power unchecked. As he shares anecdotes from his interactions with Corporate Scientology's upper echelon and mob figures alike, the episode exposes the human vulnerabilities that underlie even the most controlled environments.

As we approach the episode's conclusion, the focus turns to a heart-wrenching anecdote about Quentin Hubbard's final days. In a touching account of their last interaction, Ed reveals the ominous signs that foreshadowed a young man's tragic end. The discussion unfolds to consider the heavy burden of hindsight and the sobering task of confronting the stark details surrounding Quentin's demise. Engage with us as we navigate through the complex emotions and the lasting impact this event had on those left to grapple with the aftermath. This episode is not just a glimpse into a world few have seen—it's a deep, emotional exploration of the human condition within it.

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Transcript

Auditor's Scientology Experience and Insights

Speaker 1 0:00

Hi and welcome to another AOGP Outside of the Church podcast. I'm your host, jonathan Burke. We're going to do a little bit different format. This is a newly uncovered interview that I had with a Class 8 auditor from 1971. We'll call him Ed, and Ed was my guest in a two hour phone conversation where we spoke about many, many topics, including meeting LRH and his son, quentin, in the late 70s, as well as what Ed's history in getting trained in dynics and Scientology from the bottom to the Class 8 course.

Speaker 1 0:38

Ed was also involved in the Sands Hotel back in its heyday with Frank Sinatra, dean Martin and the Rat Pack, and LRH took an interest in what it was he did for a living and invited him out to have a conversation with him and in so doing he also got to meet Quentin Hubbard, lrh's son. It's a very controversial subject matter. It's not pretty in some places, but please keep in mind the context is from Ed's viewpoint and what he experienced and we talk about the tech and LRH using the tech and others and what he's found that he could use it for outside of Scientology once he left the corporate church. I really hope you enjoy this podcast and I think it'll be probably one of our best listen to podcasts, as there's a ton of data in here and it's a very heartfelt, open, honest conversation. So please do keep in mind that everybody has a viewpoint, and this was Ed's viewpoint, from what he experienced and what he took away from these experiences. We really hope you enjoy this podcast. All right, so what?

Speaker 2 1:41

did you have any questions of me?

Speaker 3 1:45

Well, I just wanted to. If you could just give me your background, you know, as far as what you were telling me yesterday, I'm very curious how you got into Scientology and what led you to do the courses you did and then run the sands at the same time. Find that terribly intriguing.

Speaker 2 2:06

Oh well, I was sent out here from New York. Well, I was. I'm only going. You never leave the mob. I was in the mob and sent out here by a land comedian. So a young man came to work for us at the Freedman Hotel. You might know the name, frankie Freedman. Yeah, yeah, frankie. And he actually went to our dealer school and we had a deal about for about a year or a year, anyway. Then he left, didn't see him for years and I met the sands about 1970, I think he walked in and he looked different.

Speaker 2 2:56

He looked, he looked more sure of himself, very see, more confident Right away, just because my business was trained to observe people's home Right, Right I asked him what are you even doing? He says have you heard of Scientology? And I said no, I haven't. He said that's why I've been doing it. I said well, you look great, but that, that, that that I said, you know I was over a job. He said no, no, I was, it was amazing. He says I want to talk to you and about your life.

Speaker 4 3:42

I remember he worked for me here.

Speaker 2 3:52

And that's really changed and we're good friends then, and so then I, when we were, it turned out he was here on a mission with, did you know, lloyd, lloyd?

Speaker 3 4:05

Colms Lloyd Freeman. I've heard the name Lloyd Young, yeah.

Speaker 2 4:10

Great. Well, the best plus I've ever met in my life is sweetheart of a lady. She worked with Lloyd. When Lloyd so did Frank even and they were at the organ invited me over over on Dushin Road, a small little place. I went over there and talked to them and but I anyway, I ended up doing the usual. I took the common course which was free.

Speaker 2 4:43

I think I thought it was interesting that, because I'm in the business of handling people, I thought, wow, they made this whole science of. And then I can see why Frank he was he was much shyer.

Speaker 2 5:02

So then I got life repair and Frank, he was my owner and after the it took me a fessure to because who I am and you know my position with the log. You know I didn't want to hold a can, but I didn't. I didn't want to answer any personal questions, but he knew me, so he did. He did a thing that later I did an AO I'll tell you about that later and he said okay, put the cans down. I thought he didn't hold any fucking things on me how do I know where this goes here and we first session we just talked. And then the second session I picked up the cans and then he showed me the meter and stuff and I thought it maybe was recording or something. So he showed me that and anyway, I would say, and then three weeks, it took three weeks. I would go over there in the afternoon, then come over and go to the sands at seven o'clock at night. Anyway, I found it amazingly helpful. I couldn't believe that I was talking about things I had told nobody about.

Speaker 2 6:33

Part of it was frankly very safe, good terminal, and the questions which got me interested. I remember saying why, when did Frank learn to ask these questions? I said this is amazing. And then she was told me about auditing and you could become an auditor, blah, blah, blah blah. So I thought I would use that just for casino purposes. So I took the dinetic course, I remember it. And then I read on the course. I read some which we call now H-D-O-Bs hovering and I thought they were amazingly told you what to do. But when he writes he really can inspire people. I thought this is. I thought of collecting them and she made it as a special thing because it was a staff only. I told her hey, I wanna copy anything. She then, from that day on, gave me a copy of everyone that came in and I would take them home.

Speaker 2 7:57

And then I'd make a pack out of them, but anyway, so I did that got the meter. I bought a meter and I just had that meter here and I thought it was, I thought it was an amazing instrument. So anyway, did that. The other thing, though that leads to many things that happened later. I saw the first infighting that was going on.

Speaker 3 8:32

What year was this? This was 1970.

Speaker 4 8:36

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 8:42

Boy, it was doing a great job.

Speaker 2 8:44

It was like she took the place from eight students to 28 students she's a fire foreman and worked day and night, and so did Frankie, and I noticed the guardians office, susan Reed jeez, I haven't remembered that name. Susan Reed started asking me about her and all this negative stuff. And I'm wondering, because I'm thinking they're a team. Especially after you read these stuff by LRH, you think this is a great team, right? And I'm from the casino. I was there. There's this fucking infighting going on. What is this shit?

Speaker 2 9:24

She wanted me to spy, susan Reed wanted me to spy online and I think, oh, what the fuck is going on? It's almost like the casino, and so I watched all that and things. But that was the first sign of that kind of problem. And then a guy came to me. Have you ever heard of Artie Maron? Yeah, yeah, artie was at that time. He was like PR for the GEO, but, as I thought, mainly because they don't know what to wear a suit, dress properly, look okay and he came to talk to me at the fence, realized that I'm a big boss there and he had a sense of the community, but he was on a mission that I didn't find out until months later, with the sort of contact with me and see what you Si can be and what and they.

Speaker 2 10:33

And then he fed that back to Barry Sue about this casino boss and that got LRH sort of on the line, which later I'll tell you is communicators little messages were told me. You know, hey, he's always had a fascination with Las Vegas and especially gambling. But on another side I'll get into it a bit later. Well, now he had an interesting interest in bad, powerful people which shows up later when I talk to him.

Mob Connections and Scientology Training

Speaker 2 11:26

So he started sending me telexs that they were delivered to me. And then, in 73, 73, 77, I went down to Asho, remember on Temple Street, asho, and I did the. You know what do you call it?

Speaker 2 11:52

the bricky course, you know, and while I'm there, I would visit the geo guys once or twice a week down on Ninth Street downtown LA, and Harvard would send telex questions to them about me. And already, faye, he's very important, you know, treat him. And he would say he's with the mob, he's with a lot of guys, I know, you know, and so I'm looking at him like you know. But that's when I got a lot of telexs and I would answer them right there. But an interesting point for you as a class eight would be even in the telexs he was interested in the power of the town. He was interested in the powerful leaders of what we did, whether it was Myer Lansky or he brought up not Myer, he brought up oh, I'll take it with that a famous mob guy, you know. So he would ask questions what were your tools for controlling the town?

Speaker 4 13:11

you know, and all that Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 13:15

The Woofen Warp, in other words, yeah he's want to know how it works and what. And I remember telling the guy in the job he was sending a telex back there and I said I said that you're asking too many personal questions and the geoguy was stunned you know, like this. I said send it, that's it. And Elrache liked it. He said no, I know, I know the world you live in, I understand it. And he said I know these guys, you know. And he said I almost sort of pseudo-apologize this. I almost sort of pseudo-apologize.

Speaker 2 14:04

This Uh-huh, it was showed a sensitivity and a smartness on his part, right? So anyway, I did that. It was doing those months that year. And then what's his name? A guy in the job. He was an undercover guy for the family. What does he mean? He had yet to see a layer in the papers and they raided Washington and all that. So then they raided, you know, they raided the Geo's office In 73, right there when it was now connected to the AO and the matter the matter on Franklin and things.

Speaker 3 14:48

Yeah, I was there right after they purchased it.

Speaker 2 14:52

Yeah, what the hell you would know the name. I think you would know it, but he was sort of the agent for the family itself.

Speaker 4 15:03

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 15:05

And he started talking to me and he has a lot of the same questions in a way that I guess he had a way of transmitting them where they were not going through the regular Geo guys, which is just between being two because, remember, I'm from the casino business, so I'm well as a, I've been even this LRH guy. I could, time I was a war I was. I thought this was one shock. Son of a bitch, Uh-huh. He sends out these things, he keeps everybody inspired. He's got kids working for nothing, working day and night, running all his places. You know, Uh-huh. I just thought it was interestingly well done.

Speaker 3 15:55

Right.

Speaker 2 15:56

So I thought, and then I would read things that he'd write. You know, whether it's my philosophy, or even things about ordering is inspiring technical excellence, which we did in the casino. We wanted our deal, the deal correctly, we wanted standards and we wanted so that hit home with me.

Speaker 4 16:23

Uh-huh, that's a.

Speaker 2 16:25

I would think, boy, this Ron pushes everybody. Because when I would talk to staff, what do you do? They're all getting training, all getting training on admin. But although I saw the first glimpse of something I didn't like, which is most of them never got auditing on themselves and stuff Right, it was all training. I thought Jesus Ron is pushing the auditing and changing lives and most of all the staff haven't even had an auditing session.

Speaker 2 17:02

Uh-huh, and I remember a boy wanted to change that and Susan reading the deals off and wrote it up and wrote the thing and I thought I didn't know what was going on. I just admired LRH for his not just his leadership but his communication, Because in the casino I got to keep the team on purpose for the week-hold now on purpose, Uh-huh, but you have to keep them going Uh-huh, I was shocked at how well he did that.

Speaker 3 17:38

But one question I'd have for you is how in the world did you find the time to do the briefing course while running the SANS at the same time?

Speaker 2 17:47

Oh, that's another story. I talked to her by the by 72, 73, I had already told Carl Cohen. Carl Cohen was the casino manager of the SANS.

Speaker 4 18:04

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 18:05

I was under him, I opened up to him about it and I found out a whole other side of him, this mob guy. He's a severe mob guy. I can't go into on the phone, but I'll tell you Anybody that crossed his path in the wrong way. They never did it twice. I mean they weren't around, but this is a stone fucking.

Speaker 3 18:30

Anyway, cold methodical killer, yeah, so.

Speaker 2 18:38

I, uh, I told Carl about it and he said he had heard about it. I brought him the book of life, what's?

Speaker 3 18:49

it called Unlife. New Slain on Life. You got it. New Slain on.

Speaker 2 18:53

Life. The next day he come over to me telling me something in there. He liked it, fully liked it. He thought this is good and he liked that I had changed. Like Frankie had changed, I had changed.

Speaker 4 19:09

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 19:10

Where before I was a kid I was now showing authority, which a lot of the stuff you get from Scientology at least I did. I know a lot of staff, you know God bless them. They're never gonna be able to run a canister, but uh, they could work with one. They'd never run it Right. So I told Carl Carl about that. So I wanna get advanced training. I told him, I told him the briefing course and I hear you. You hear the acceleration on audio tapes every day. And he said go ahead. And he gave me a leave of absence.

Speaker 4 19:55

Wow.

Speaker 2 19:57

So I went down there and I did the briefing course and I did the same thing. When I did, I went to AO, which is your guys name now, through AO, which at that time was connect to the manor, uh-huh.

Speaker 3 20:13

Remember, yeah, that little low building Franklin, uh-huh.

Speaker 2 20:16

Yeah, I did the same thing. I got a call, I got, got time to go down there. In fact, I arranged with Sarah Strasburg Sarah, what's her name, she was CEO at that time, sarah, nice. Anyway, I arranged her that on weekends I would go back. She was unheard of.

Speaker 3 20:46

Yes.

Speaker 2 20:47

But my connection in juice. Do you know what juice is?

Speaker 3 20:51

No.

Speaker 2 20:53

Juice in the casino business means powerful connections you have?

Speaker 3 20:57

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 20:59

And since I'm in the mob, I have juice in Las Vegas. So I had juice with the CEO and I had juice with LRH.

Speaker 1 21:09

Got it.

Speaker 2 21:10

So I told Sarah, sarah Strasburg, what's her name. Great lady, she was there. She's the wearer of the uniform. She was on a mission, she was running AO. I told her check with Ari Maren, check with his guide, and they get back to me. She said yeah. They said okay. So I did the class A course and on weekends, went back. Wow, that was another interesting thing to me, because I'm watching a lot of things that didn't make sense. I'm on the class A course. What's her name? A sweet lady I haven't talked to Ron about it, anyway a sweetheart of a lady. She's eating half of a head of lettuce every day at noon Because fats are down and I'm you know, this is fucking nuts. And here I am. At those stage. To me, a class A was what Frankie was. That was the epitome I thought. In fact I stayed in because I said I will become a class A one day.

Speaker 2 22:35

I want to be excellent of Frankie and thing, although between you and me I found out the great order is class A's. I know it don't come from the class A, it comes from them being great people who just do the course Right. Because the course was amazingly weak and it was more of Ron angry and trying to put standards in because he realized nobody could do it like he does it, and you know.

Speaker 3 23:07

Right, yeah, I felt the same way when I did it.

Speaker 2 23:10

Yeah, I thought shit, he doesn't tell you how to see us here, no. And then I found out talking to messages and stuff later that's what it was from. He was angry and he believed nobody can order like he can, but of course he didn't allow it.

Speaker 2 23:31

Right and but I was that style I used to tell lawyer. I said I listened. After the briefing course I said this is the way, this is the way I talk to, this is the way these son of a bitch talks. I said he's the most nonstandard, the way you guys are doing. And that came up on the class A course.

Meeting With LRH and Answering Questions about the Mob

Speaker 2 23:52

Sarah, sarah, sarah, what the fuck's her name? Anyway, I'm on the A course, just ending it, and they send me a staff member who wants to blow who's really effective girl Gabor and bring her in. I remember we had a warrant in somebody's room. They got how unprofessional it was for that day we had an order in somebody's bedroom. She comes in and is breaking down, crying uncontrollable grief and I told her oh, and they're recording this Because they said they'll use it for my internship. I thought go ahead. And I tried to get her to pick up the cans and she wouldn't. And I said to her what Frankie said to me when I first came in. I said listen, don't pick up the can, let's just talk. And it was shocking. It was the first which I found out later when I got in a session with her. It was the first person who talked to her nicely.

Speaker 2 25:06

Because the seal of dramatize all this fucking force. I said, yeah, just talk. And I said she's just an overwhelmed staff member, hardly eating, working day and night, who wanted to see her child and I thought God damn, what are you doing? So anyway, I did that and then and the most interesting thing is probably you would want to hear Then I'm back in Vegas and I'm CS for the Celebrity Center here, as a favorite to our great girl. You know, hands clever, you, son of a what's her name Yvonne, yvonne, yeah, yvonne, personally asked me to do it.

Speaker 4 26:10

I said yeah, just talk to her, right, okay so every afternoon.

Speaker 2 26:15

I mean they only had one order over there. I'm at CS for that, Anyway, but then watching a lot of trail moral, a lot of things that GO wanted to do, artie would talk to me about and this guy I told you I met. I'm trying to figure out who was a personal agent for the family Things they wanted to do. I say, guys, you know I'm in the mob, we're here trying to operate legally, we're trying to stay out of trouble. You fucking guys are going to end it because they're all doing things that were fucking illegal. I think what the fuck are you? I don't care if he's a fucker, I don't care what he is.

Speaker 2 26:59

He can't do this and pushing the envelope, in other words, oh yeah all crazy things and stuff that I end up testifying in clear water about.

Speaker 4 27:16

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 27:17

Yeah, because we're sure we were going through folders and we were, you know, taking stuff out on people and stuff, you know. Uh, it was just, it was like weird, everything Ron was preaching against.

Speaker 3 27:35

Right. Yet it's happening, Did it seem? Did it seem like it was dictated from LRH, or these people were just doing it on a rogue basis? That?

Speaker 2 27:48

was my question Was this guy, what's his name? Head of the? Uh, the GO and LA, and then what the fuck's his name? Anyway, that was my, but I believe it couldn't happen without his knowing, because this guy from the family knew about it, because I talked to him and I end up getting the answer later, but at that time I didn't know.

Speaker 4 28:12

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 28:13

So, uh, I'm on a, uh a frequent, not a frequent. But months later I'm at the GO's office in in LA and they tell me and then the family guy oh, what the fuck's his name? Anyway, he tells me that LRH is in the country and moving to Southern California. I told him I want to see him, but I hear back later. He wants to see me. What?

Speaker 3 28:48

year was this 78, 79, 80, one of those years, uh-huh, big blue.

Speaker 2 29:06

The base yeah.

Speaker 3 29:08

Anyway, uh, in La Cuencha Right.

Speaker 4 29:12

Oh, okay, watch what happened.

Speaker 2 29:15

So what's his name? Tell me it's La Cuencha. I said I know the place. He said what? No, it's a secret place. I said Hollywood guys, it's actually the Gilman Hot Springs. Me and other mob guys play golf there. And at first he didn't believe me. He said no, it's a little place that nobody knows about and it's in right outside of La Cuencha. And I said oh, I'm telling it, it's Gilman Hot Springs. It's a. It's a golf course, a bar bar. He didn't know because he had not been there. Then the word comes back to me that I can come down there, and I actually first traveled down there with Artie Marin, and that was interesting. I go down there with Artie Marin, who to me was a big shot. I mean, you know who Artie is.

Speaker 3 30:13

Vaguely you could tell me, that would help.

Speaker 2 30:16

Yeah, he was the. His official title was PR for the golf club, but he he had connections to Mary Sue and he handled any major PR flaps in the United States, mainly because he was the most sensible one, talked well with most of the guys in the GOs would like to fucking eat Young people. Look like I wouldn't hire it at the Sands. Nobody would.

Speaker 3 30:48

Right.

Speaker 2 30:49

So Artie was, Artie was a smooth talking guy. Here's what happened though. I go down there and it's nothing like you see. But I see on the end of it now, it had no fences, it was a little block wall that was like four feet high. It went around the property, but they told Artie Marin to stay at the gate, and it wasn't even a gate, it was just an entrance.

Speaker 2 31:18

And I was shocked at that because I thought he's a big man. But that's what I started to get the feel with L Rage. You could remember I'm, I've been in the, I know what it is to run, I know what it is to hide and I'll take it. This guy that I admire, what the fuck's he? What the fuck's he running from. So, anyway, two young people come up and they take me to. It's like a. There's a house which I think we're going to. We don't, we're not going to this like trailer, big trailer, and I go in there and they want me to wait outside for a few minutes. And I come in and Elerace is in there and as what's her name? A communicator, what's the name of the two that went to? Were he in or dying in Northern California?

Speaker 3 32:29

The two they were actually the most powerful. So the guy in the gal, yeah, yeah, I forget their names right now. Yeah, I'll figure that I got to know them well later.

Speaker 2 32:43

Right, that's your sweet people. So they told me later how Elerage had primed himself for like 40 minutes waiting for me. He wanted to place that up, and you'll see why when I go in there. But when I talk to him, to me it's like a great honor and I'm thinking so this is the fucking guy that runs everything and at first he had this seller cap off, you know.

Speaker 2 33:23

I even asked him about it. He took it off, so I think he could sense things. But anyway, so we talked. I was shocked at two things. One, his bad teeth. I was just wow. Two, how he was playing up to me so much Because, remember, I'm in a casino, people play up to me all the time to see Satchir, to see Sammy. You know he was playing up to me. What can I do for you? Everything alright, you're a big boss.

Speaker 4 34:06

And then he would always say yeah, I know all the big bosses.

Speaker 2 34:13

What the fuck is this? Anyway, we were talking about these guys. He was brought up, al Capone from the fucking 40s, you know, I thought man, he's pushing it, which later I found out that he was. That's what he got At the time. I'm just going. Why is he treating me so well? Here's why, as we started to talk, you would know, in the class eight, we're looking for their interest factor. His interest factor was the powerful bad guys he wanted to know. You know, did I know my last guy? Oh yeah, my boss, I know him. I told him a watch story, blah, blah, blah. And then, oh, forgive me for my memory.

Speaker 3 35:08

No, that's okay.

Speaker 2 35:11

I could tell that he's kept an eye on it and he seemed fascinated with Vegas and he almost looked like we took over the town. That's the way he would put it. I said, well, yeah, some ways we did.

Speaker 3 35:31

But here's the important thing. Burke, that's your name, right? My last name is Burke. My first name is Jonathan. Is it what John? John or Jonathan? You can call me John.

Speaker 2 35:42

John. Okay, john. He wanted to know about what made Lansky Carl Cohen oh, I had to talk about it and these people powerful Mm-hmm. He even said this line, which I want to tie into OTA in a second. By the way, have you seen the original OTA, not what they gave out? Or have you talked to anybody that's seen the?

Speaker 3 36:13

original OTA. I've talked to people who have seen the original OTA I also and it's available. And if you know how to search on Google and know people, there's only one. Oh really, yeah, there's only one reference that is designated in the upper left-hand corner for the OTA course and it's a hell of a reference. It's called why Fatens Mock Up. Wait, say that again. The name of the title of it is called why Fatens Mock Up.

Speaker 2 36:45

Very good, that's what I want to get to. I haven't seen it. Oh well, I'll send it to you, okay good, I'm telling you from this interview talk with Elevation, another one. He loved evil, powerful people, but so did I, so you know it's fucking made sense. He thought that we in the mob had power ruthless power over the people and that's why we got things done. That will fit into all the crazy things you hear later that happen to people on the ship and stuff, you know.

Discussion on OT VIII

Speaker 3 37:30

Yeah, one of the interesting parallels and I'm sorry to interject, but it's germane to what you're talking about In 2010, I went to the Gulf Coast to meet with Marty Rathbun, who was the head ethics guy for the church under Miss Kavage, and I spent a couple days there interviewing him. He attempted to audit me, but it was really a strange affair, but that's another conversation. Marty told me that Miss Kavage's hero, the icon that he looked up to, if you will, being a fictitious character, was none other than the character Don Corleone. Oh my gosh, really Isn't that interesting.

Speaker 2 38:26

Yeah, ask me later about that and the movie. Okay, and I'll tell you about who's actually who in the movie.

Speaker 4 38:33

Okay.

Speaker 2 38:33

Anyway, can you Caller Gambino was my boss.

Speaker 3 38:39

He's the guy that sent me to Vegas. Right, that's what I figured.

Speaker 2 38:42

He's actually a very small, sweet little guy. Brando changed it, which I'll get into later for other reasons. That's what the producer, bob Evans. But even in the movie, brando shows the wisdom of the godfather which the Gambino had Mr G, we call him. Anyway, do you know that Harvard brought that up? Harvard knew about the families and the thing and he was I had I called him sir all the time. Sir, I said sir, let me explain to him if you're the mafia and the mob, they're not the same. And he was like tell me, tell me. And I described the difference. The mob is a totally Italian, sicilian, blah, blah, blah. The mob is us, who won the gambling policy. He's like that. He's ah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 39:43

I said, I told the guy you mentioned earlier, al Capone. He's not in the mafia. The mafia is a separate little New York group that had power, but because they brutally handled things. But very smart. Anyway, my fork I want to get over to you is I went away from that me. I met with him who was supposed to be scheduled for half an hour.

Speaker 4 40:08

I was with him for an hour and 15 minutes.

Speaker 2 40:15

I saw a very interesting guy, a guy caught up in almost trying to live out of his naval experience, because he would tell me about that try and explain himself.

Speaker 4 40:35

You know, I'm thinking what the fuck's the Navy have to do with what you're doing, but he seemed I don't know.

Speaker 2 40:43

He seemed like the Navy showed him how the discipline he needed and then he failed and then trying to prove, so I listened. The other thing I noticed was that he was a lot like us in Vegas. He knew it's a brutal game to play. The third thing was how he was trying to impress me. I never expected that, but he's a fucking. I looked up to him. I thought I'm going to need a fucking another call calling.

Speaker 2 41:21

And he's not a call calling I don't know. He's looking for some kind of recognition, what we would call Scientology admiration, but he wanted it for me, which you know yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I'm there to admire him.

Speaker 4 41:45

But.

Speaker 2 41:46

But what's the name? The two there were LRH up where and the scavenger moved him out two sweet people. They end up telling me about that that he thought you were a gangster and he admired how you took over Las Vegas and Made the casinos work. He thought it was the brilliance you got, the organizational operation you had.

Speaker 4 42:19

He said, that's why so.

Speaker 2 42:21

I thought that. I thought that was interesting. Now back to the OTA thing. So I had that, but I never told anybody about it Because it first he can't tell Scientology like that about it. He wouldn't in first thing. It wouldn't make sense to him.

Speaker 2 42:47

And then somebody tells me about that they're they're trying to hold on to the OTA, ota, they're not going to release it. I said why not? Well, it's true, what's it have in it? They just tell me about some things about the Catholic Church and things and bull something, something about little children and some and both. But I Said to this guy it was here in town. I said what? What was shocking to you? He said he was trying to show that evil is a very powerful force.

Speaker 3 43:29

Listen to this, john. Yeah, I said really.

Speaker 2 43:34

I Was he calling. He said OTA is truth revealed. I Thought the old man is fucking Going out gonna tell what he really thinks. That's what I think happen. I think the old man, because it's a very honest side to him, wanted to tell no words. Ota is a lot about him.

Speaker 2 44:01

We need most of the weapons are mm-hmm the joke is the classification chart is his case. But anyway he's Truth reveal. I think the old man wanted Joe To, and it's funny, what's the name? The two Husband and wife, great, anyway, the two young people told me he was in that mood, he wanted to Tell more of what he thought.

Speaker 3 44:35

Now, when you say, tell more of what he thought you are you talking about as far as the the, the Contrast between good and evil, sort of thing, and yeah, he wanted to let them know that Evil was a very powerful force.

Speaker 2 44:56

Mm-hmm and that he understood it. It's almost like he was saying I have part of that power myself, because that's what he told.

Speaker 3 45:12

Yeah, I can't think of their names either, but I know you're talking about that many times.

Speaker 4 45:21

Hmm.

Speaker 2 45:25

So you know and I always loved that the title was called truth reveal I thought the old man wants to let the truth out and, of course, from what I hear, it never happened.

Speaker 3 45:40

But so you think it was squashed because of the content that people couldn't have?

Speaker 2 45:45

yeah, yeah, the ones who had the original copies were these two Scavages down all of them and Then it was a. What this guy got. There was a first edit. It was left. A lot of certain lines were taken out. This guy told me something about children. These powerful children were given as gifts. Your own is that. It went far back as soccer days or something, all of them. You know all the stuff of showing evil people.

Speaker 3 46:20

So are you talking about the, the pedophilia, and the, the hierarchy of the top 2%, sort of thing?

Speaker 2 46:28

Yeah, I haven't seen it there's.

Speaker 3 46:30

this guy was telling me yeah, well, he was, he was on on, on track on that. It was what LRH was on track on that. I mean, that's, that's a reality.

Speaker 2 46:41

Yeah, yeah, so it's. It's the guy in town is. The reason I want to give you a name is because he has a source very close to the scavenging of people running it now. Yeah and, but anyway, the scavenging, that and a few other things. You know, I actually put him in a position Because this guy in town said when the scavenging had the tech In other words he was the remember LRH talking about the hidden data line Uh-huh here, the scavenging house, the hidden data line.

Speaker 2 47:28

Oh in other words, the people are flared or not even getting what LRH said.

Speaker 3 47:36

Right, he's, he's lying to them.

Speaker 2 47:38

Yes, he's what Miss Gavage is lying to the people at flat oh you have exactly right scavenging and two of the other guys that one of them is out telling how bad science how he is. He was one of the fucking guys that crucified most people, but uh, anyway, I thought that was interesting. Anyway, then the turning point was a Some the Heartwell boy, ernie Hartwell, and his wife were recruited here because he was a carpenter.

Speaker 2 48:31

They would what's called a master carpenter, you know, For construction here and they recruited them, they bring them that way and John, in one week he sent to what I call Gilman us phrase. You guys call it.

Speaker 4 48:49

Quinter.

Speaker 2 48:52

He sent that Mainly because I guess they needed to. He'd last about two weeks and it sent back and I'll never forget. I pick them up, we're gonna. His wife calls me, I pick them up and Susan Reed in the Gears office wants to talk to him, so I Actually drive over to Susan Reed's office and we're sitting here all these dingy fucking place. But I'll never forget the day, because this is a guy, because remember all these geo people never met. All right, you know the whole idolizing they never met right removed.

Speaker 2 49:38

And I admit him, so I know he's not what they think, but he's not a bad guy in right in fact he's very human.

Speaker 2 49:46

He has the human as a classic ordering a lot of people. You would know it. He has a lot of the class 8 difficulty most people are fighting. I'll talk about serious sexual difficulties, fear problems, lots of stuff that human beings have. Anyway, hard-well, his wife are sitting in front of me and she says what are these lies? That you are big.

Speaker 2 50:16

And Ernie remember he's in Scientology two weeks. She said you actually saw her L1, robert, yeah, yeah, how are you describing? She meant physically, how are you describe? And Ernie says he's fucking nuts. And I was the shock that he would say it. Susan was shocked. What do you mean? Not well, well, it comes over. He starts screaming at everybody. He tells me to build these shells for these Mechanisms of film and stuff, he said. He said I asked him one of the measurements and he thought it's screaming at me and he said oh, make it happen. He said. And Then he's in Scientology two weeks. He goes what the fuck she talked about making happen? I Need tape measure. I told you know, it was just. It is actually so.

Speaker 4 51:19

See all this and so LRH right, but it made.

Speaker 2 51:24

Susan read just I Think it broke her. It made you know, because a lot of people idolized LRH is a glass shattering moment, absolutely because I've talked to Susan read, since this is a lie witness, and he's saying it in that honest anger, and she heard little things about it because people would come from the ship back to Vegas, right, they wouldn't come into.

Speaker 4 51:52

York.

Speaker 2 51:52

They wouldn't say why, and they were, and they were talking about all Irish being sick and Susan, we always thought that was a lie. You know the SP, you know it's a big lie. They say what that L Ron Hubbard is sick. I they say what? That L Ron Hubbard is sick, so and so in town there and says, yes, summer trouble all the time. You know, I know it to be true.

Speaker 4 52:19

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 52:20

I'm thinking Jesus. Here's the head of the Geo's office. She doesn't know what's going on, but that was interesting, so things were compartmentalized.

LRH, Quentin, and Scientology Insights

Speaker 2 52:32

I was gonna I they send Audi Marin up here, mm-hmm, to handle the hard rolls Ernie, and Because she wrote this crazy report making him dangerous not dangerous at all, fuck, but she wrote this day. So Our America comes up to me in this urgency Like a life and death matter. And he knew my connection to the family and he's going. We must protect Elevation by the detective for what that they're talking about, taking serious actions against Ernie. And I'm gonna hold it slow up and I'll never forget John walking down From my house and through blocks because we're talking all the time he seemed in such urgency, Uh-huh and.

Speaker 2 53:28

I said you Wanted me to do. I said no, I'm not doing it. And he says you gotta do it. I said I ain't fucking doing it and he sat down on the curb and cried.

Speaker 4 53:45

Hmm.

Speaker 2 53:51

He's frightened to death himself.

Speaker 4 53:54

Right.

Speaker 3 54:00

Right, he's supposed to be the stable datum.

Speaker 2 54:07

Right and then I knew it tied into things. Already said that Fear is a motivating thing, because he said that to me at what you guys call a quinter.

Speaker 2 54:30

He said so you kept the town and fear? I said no, no, we didn't, I Said. I said, sir, let's say I get people. Oh, he said, what do they do if they don't pay a question? Yet what? If they don't pay, they'll pay you for casino credit. I Said well, quite honestly, the first thing we do, we don't worry about it. We tell guy, don't worry, we invite him back Because let's he comes back, we lose a customer. I Said now, if he does it a second time, then we have a serious talk.

Speaker 4 55:05

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 55:06

He said. He said what if he does it the third time? I Said all I can tell you then he will get a special vacation.

Speaker 4 55:18

Elevations. What's that?

Speaker 2 55:19

that's a vacation you don't come back from, that's right, he Didn't go, he's mild, he loved that fucking force that we applied in town, which we had to at the time to operate the town right.

Speaker 2 55:39

But anyway. So I was gonna go down there Anyway, oh yeah, already Sitting on the curfew crying and I get back and get him back to PT and get up before he's telling me that if I don't Crotail, ernie, stop him that I would be in trouble, afraid of going on the RPF. Mm-hmm, oh, it was at that time I thought would never happen. I do your pm For people who School up. You know it's well, you know. Then I hear later Heber, who I knew well, heber gents member, goes on the RPF.

Speaker 4 56:21

Uh-huh, which the room right here.

Speaker 2 56:24

He's never fucking come out of it.

Speaker 4 56:25

No, he hasn't.

Speaker 2 56:27

Really yeah, he was the president of the church.

Speaker 3 56:31

Yeah and. A good guy to For a while you're gone, husband.

Speaker 4 56:38

Yeah, that's why I thought they're going to sir Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 56:43

They are going to sir. Anyway, I told I'm going down there. I think, yeah, I'm gonna drive down there. I said I'm going to the gate and I'm gonna tell what you're like all of the old man. I said I'm gonna tell the old man you gotta stop all this shit. So he listened all this stuff. Uh-huh, two nights later, the other a show at the base and the back of a car is Commit, a gate is told me in the backseat on the floor I'm thinking what the fuck? And he told them a gangster was coming after him. So I thought you know what fuck? Anyway, so my take on it is just a brilliant, brilliant man who, the worst of them, came out toward the end Mm-hmm. But geniuses are not regular people anyway. So you know, right, seems some after a cry, frank's a monster. Everybody thinks he's a great entertainer we have, but they look at him as this powerful man. I've been right. Frank Lee was so Worrying about his performance he would cry. So you know, these guys like a race, they're not regular people.

Speaker 4 58:13

Right.

Speaker 2 58:15

So I was caught in admiring him, and I still do. Okay, I've used most all the stuff I learned in Scientology to make a very profitable business. Uh-huh so I'm well off now. I Started to law firms here and I most all of it was stuff from Scientology and I never told that uh-huh, you know, cycles of action upset problem.

Speaker 2 58:42

You teach lawyers the difference between a problem person so they can talk to the husband, and the upset person is usually the wife and average day. It would be gold for them, gold because they had no idea, so you know. So there is no doubt in my mind how great the stuff LRH put together and how much good use I've made up out of it.

Speaker 4 59:13

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 59:14

The sad part is the organization fucked up so bad I can't even say when I got it from right, so it's uh.

Speaker 2 59:24

And I've. I've told a lot of that stuff. I change it, I change Cuz. Now I gotta worry one that I don't do any more than that For five years. Oh, I still handle this lover. I had a worry because I mentioned having it. The fucking person Google it. This is Scientology, you know. I said, well, that's things I've learned from the whole bunch of way. Which the joke is, which, probably, john, you would admit there's a lot of LRH and all that.

Speaker 3 1:00:01

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:00:04

So His embellishments is pushing it. Hey, you have to do it. You have to do it at your organization to keep everybody inspired.

Speaker 3 1:00:16

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's tricky.

Speaker 2 1:00:21

By any questions you have any questions.

Speaker 3 1:00:23

Well, you mentioned yesterday and it seemed to be a bit of a touchy touchy subject, and one of the areas that is Most unclear has to do with Quentin and his relationship to LRH and and how that whole thing Went down. What, what, what, what are you comfortable in telling me over the phone?

Speaker 2 1:00:46

Well, my age, I don't worry about the phone anymore. 82. The FBI is now. They don't track me anymore. All my mob bosses are dead, so then they are not gonna come back at me, so I don't really.

Speaker 1 1:01:01

I don't care right.

Speaker 2 1:01:04

Quinn. I First met him. Somebody else brought him into Las Vegas, a friend of Frankie, frankie Freeman, who when Frankie was First on the ship, told him about me because Quinn had heard about LRH Telexing this, which LRH called the monster. But there's this boss in Vegas, so he had heard about that and this, this guy who's now out buddy, called me and quit one bit to meet me and you know I'm like Jesus quit another holy shit.

Speaker 2 1:01:51

So I met with him at a public park and he seemed very nice and very sweet, very nice. I want to know what he wanted for me. He was almost looking at how do you get in a casino and how do you get a job? I'm picking up this thing. He should look at the leaves. I mean this guy. And then Six months, eight months later, he comes to Vegas and this time he called. He comes to LA, la and calls me. It comes up to Vegas. And now he's opening up to me that.

Speaker 2 1:02:36

His father, which he calls his father, is just ruthless, doesn't understand him. It's not the life he wants and that's how he got into it. He preaches to me and he got put in the hole or someplace on a ship where he got locked up for three days, quinton said, for his own sexual problems. A funny story. Then get me back to Quinton. A funny story about how I was when I'm c-s-ing at the Celebrity Center here. I remember a guy comes in, walks up to the c-s-roll, opens the door, says to me Are you Edward Wilson? I said yes. He said don't you stand up? I said stand up for what he said. Do you know who I am? I said no and he said Captain Bill.

Speaker 3 1:03:54

Robinson, or do you know what was his name? Robert Robinson, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:03:59

He said I'm Captain Bill Robinson. If I had heard about it from the lawyer, I said well, good, and I thought he's yelling at me. He thought I was in the sea. All here I am, I'm running a million dollar casino and I'm doing this as a favor, which later you'll see. He gets reprimanded than this because he's going back down laying in the summer. But that ruthless command value they're all trying to dramatize LRH.

Speaker 2 1:04:37

And I told him. I said no, I'm not in the sea. Are you on staff? No, I'm not on staff. I said give me any more fucking trouble, I'll take a walk. He had just nodded, so he went. I almost thought of a name. He went back to the sea I was a great lady and a shoulder who I was. Then he goes back to LA and these fucking guys, you know, they write up what was it called Nausea Report or something he writes up.

Speaker 2 1:05:13

a Nausea Report and the fucking Mary Sue had to tell him oh, you picked on the wrong guy, hold it. She had a name for LRH, a private name that wasn't Commodore.

Speaker 3 1:05:31

Mary Sue did yeah.

Speaker 2 1:05:33

She had a name for him. Anyway, all right back to Quinn. So Quinn comes up and now he opens up to me. He wants to leave and he's caught in what probably most Scientology is. He wants to leave which would be self-determined. Everything he is he's like I think he's only was the highest class ordinar on the planet. You know phrases like that. He's trying to get permission to fucking leave and I'm thinking, you know one doesn't stand with the other Often. Be the highest class ordinar on the planet, you got to get permission to fucking leave. And the guy who's your father is you're describing as a fucking Quinn thought his father hated him. Hated him, meaning hated him as a being, you know. And then Quinn opened up about his personal life and he described it. Today they call it gay, but he described it differently.

Speaker 2 1:06:49

And I told him don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. I said anybody know about it? He said it was in all the folders and his father he'd always called him his father. His father controlled the ordinating. And I thought, gee, anyway, we went through all of that, looked through a bunch. It was just solidifying the things that I realized anyway. But I was thinking, you know, if Eleoracea would treat his own son like that, then I can see why Lloyd was locked up. Other people were locked up. I mean, these are fucking supreme orders. Class 8's are special people. At that time I looked at Class 8 as superstars.

Speaker 4 1:07:36

And Eleoracea's are gonna lock him up. I thought I thought it's something wrong All right.

Speaker 2 1:07:47

Then he comes back a third time and he said he's leaving. I thought it was the seal. He told me on the phone he's leaving.

Speaker 3 1:08:03

He didn't like being in the sea org.

Speaker 2 1:08:07

No, he thought the sea org. He described it as his father's dramatized organization. He said my dad failed in the Navy and his cover-up is to be the most powerful nasal officer in the world. And that actually makes sense when you see a lot of things, eleoracea, he said in that description. He failed there and his solution was to be the most powerful. Notice he didn't say the best the most powerful naval officer on the planet.

Speaker 3 1:08:44

The most powerful naval officer on the planet? How? With his own organization? Absolutely but by powerful.

Quentin's Demise and What Does All This Mean?

Speaker 2 1:08:53

Yet it means dramatizing, putting people in the hole, yelling at them Powerful, not a good leader. Powerful Got it and that makes sense. That's what this young boy was running from. But here's the thing he said I'm leaving. I say now foolishly, but at the time I said good man well done.

Speaker 2 1:09:22

He said I've decided to leave. I said okay, where are you? I said I'm in Las Vegas. I've got something to do. I look at all this differently now. He said I've got something to do. I said all right, listen now, quentin, stay in touch, let's get together. This is first. I have to leave. I said good man. I said I'm proud of you.

Speaker 3 1:09:53

What did he say to that?

Speaker 2 1:09:57

Not much, just acknowledging.

Speaker 4 1:09:59

He was a beaten kid Right.

Speaker 2 1:10:02

And I look back now, I just read all of this, or conclude, and I think on the shop I just read all of this he committed suicide the next day.

Speaker 3 1:10:16

The next day, yeah, the next day.

Speaker 2 1:10:20

In a car out on. Some said I would stand out there to look at it. There was no doubt it was suicide. I know you hear all these rumors.

Speaker 3 1:10:33

Can you describe what the scene was? What?

Speaker 2 1:10:37

Yeah, it was a car. It had, like this tube going from the, from the outlet gas, whatever you call that, or whatever you call that, or over to the rear view mirror, rear window, and the window was put up to hold that in place. Apparently he had bought that day Then, so I looked at it. My next assignment was to get a hold of the autopsy report which you read in John, a tax book, I think, or some of the books. They mentioned me and I've never replied to it, but I did. I had a source at the hospital, whatever you call it. Anyway, and this girl I knew I got the autopsy report showed the suicide. It also showed Seaman in his honor In his what?

Speaker 3 1:11:47

What do you call that? His ass, his ass, you know? Oh, got it Okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:11:56

So. So I brought that original copy too. I brought the real copy over to Susan Reed, I wouldn't hear it. I'd go and get a hold of LA and tell them what I find. And they send a guy up here I'm trying to figure out what's his name. You hear me a lot about him when they raided Washington and he ended up getting going to jail. Anyway, these rolled up that day and I told them I've got to get this back and they made a copy, a very bad copy.

Speaker 3 1:12:40

It wasn't a contra machines like we had today. Right, it was rough yeah.

Speaker 2 1:12:46

Very bad copy. But he was shocked. Nobody can see this. Well, something in the public people thought was probably no one else, because Whitton told me that his friends on the ship knew he was gay. He didn't use the word gay but he couldn't trust them. In fact LRH had them auditing like sex checks just to find out what they knew.

Speaker 3 1:13:19

The people that knew about Quinton?

Speaker 2 1:13:22

Yeah, I think here's LRH he has all those great seconds, he's using it to fucking protect himself. It's actually everything against what he originally tried to start, so I think it was his best time of his life. So, anyway, he made a copy. I got the copy back in the hospital here. We only had one hospital at that time in town. So anyway, do you have any questions, I'll ask.

Speaker 3 1:14:09

Well, did you ever talk to Mary Sue about it after that? Not personally, no.

Speaker 2 1:14:18

I talked through this guy. I probably even have notes on him somewhere out there. He said he wanted what he called a fuel report. They were very into all this fucking official names, right lady? The only word I got back is that I had failed by letting the autopsy report go back. I thought, Jesus, nutty as a lorraine, you can't fucking steal this fucking stuff. There was an investigation going on. That was weird.

Speaker 4 1:15:07

The original investigation, the police thought it may be murder.

Speaker 2 1:15:13

Which has started the reports that I read in one or two books on this year. They're right, there was a murder investigation, but I don't think there's any murder. I don't think I could be wrong?

Speaker 3 1:15:27

Yeah, but one of the rumors I heard is that his wallet was found under a rock nearby. That's right, it was why. Why would he do that? Yeah?

Speaker 2 1:15:38

but no inquitny would do. He, stupidly, was trying not to have it on him so he would identify who he was, but he's not smart enough to go put it in the proper place. We're not dealing with fucking great minds here Right. Gwenton was a very naive, soft guy. What shocked me was there. He was supposed to be the highest grade auditor in the world. He was like a child a child.

Speaker 3 1:16:16

He was looking for somebody to give permission to leave. That's how I taught the CEO. So he was really PTSD to his dad. In other words, that's a good reason, that's a good technical observation. Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:16:35

He was a very student here.

Speaker 2 1:16:36

that's very good. There's a joke I used to say to people years ago I don't talk about time to our team, but they say, well, do you ever get sick? I said SPs don't get PTSD Right. Technically it's right, but that observation is made. I haven't looked at that. Well, he was PTSD to his dad. That's an interesting view.

Speaker 3 1:17:11

Well, with that in mind, ron says that when a person becomes so PTSD that they eventually snap in and become the terminal that is suppressing them. So my question to you and I've said this in interviews myself where I've been on podcasts and stuff, and I wasn't there, I was a kid at the time Do you think that, based off of your conversations with him, with Ron, do you think that he ultimately caved into the suppression that he was receiving towards the end at St Hill, when he was kicked out of England and forced onto the ship and went through all of the you know, being kicked out of ports and being denied ports and all of this stuff, once he came up with with OT2 and OT3 and he sort of started dramatizing the terminals that were suppressing him? Does that seem like?

Speaker 2 1:18:19

Yeah, this may shock you LRH over his first days in New York and again has always been SP Based on. He's always been looking to put himself, put others down His original, which I end up getting as original writings to the FBI. He believed that people like that hustlers.

Speaker 4 1:18:51

Crooks are powerful people.

Speaker 2 1:18:56

His golden life was to become a famous writer, and he just reminds me of Woody Allen. I just finished the Woody Allen book and Woody Allen says in there they all make me intellectual.

Speaker 3 1:19:10

My goal was to be a thief, but I don't have the guts to be one Right, that sounds like Woody, that's.

Speaker 2 1:19:18

LRH. Lrh wanted to be evil, didn't have the guts to do it. So who did he pick on? Weak people who idolized?

Speaker 3 1:19:29

him.

Speaker 2 1:19:31

So it's been a flavor of SP in him. This is why he declared and used SP.

Speaker 3 1:19:42

He's accusing other people of his own, his own over his. You got it.

Speaker 2 1:19:48

And he used sex checking to get over it Because he believed other people were like him. They had secret goals which we can go into tech for you about that. He had secret goals and he was trying to enmasse them. The truth is that was LRH. I just mentioned goals, I thought completing the brief of goals and then remember when he goes through GPS, gps and he goes through problems of mass and GPMs. It was actually brilliant. He was trying to find the road to clear Right, but he realized that everybody who wanted to achieve something had a goal which created a problem, which created mass.

Speaker 4 1:20:34

It was actually brilliant.

Speaker 2 1:20:36

As class 8s, we handle that in every upset and problem people have, and then he gives up on it to do all the listing which he took out of all the folders. Did you know that the clearing course items all came?

Speaker 3 1:20:51

out of the folders of people on the briefing course.

Speaker 2 1:20:55

No, I didn't know that, yeah and I'll tell you some of the tech things. Yeah, that's it. He gave up because he found out first, they had to do it so well. Two, they couldn't learn to so well, the ordered is good, but the public couldn't. So he got his people and a spur of brilliance to go through all the folders and take out all the readable items and what was the name back then Reading items of that? And that's how those lists come out Justice, faith, sex, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I thought it was brilliant. In fact, I think I've seen people at every stage. They're the most overwhelmingly pleased with themselves and for power, but they're the cleanest after clear.

Speaker 3 1:21:46

Yeah, and I always thought people should do clear every two years or so. And when you say clear, what do you mean? The clearing course, the clearing course.

Speaker 2 1:21:57

Yeah, the clearing course items which are nothing but items that a person goes over, and flattens the regional. All those items come from the folders which is brilliant on his own Because he knew now they don't have to go find it. He's put it there and things are going to be fine. But if it reads, okay, there's some, there's some what would be the technical word.

Speaker 4 1:22:25

you know connection to you, uh-huh.

Speaker 2 1:22:28

And the idea was flattens and I've interviewed people. That's what I owe. By the way, one of my most disappointed things in my life in Scientology Is after becoming class. A completed internship. They wanted me to spend a month repairing OGs and I was shocked how fucked up they were.

Speaker 4 1:22:55

Uh-huh Shucked.

Speaker 3 1:22:57

I had worked seven eight years to get here, right, right, and then you're dealing with that.

Speaker 2 1:23:04

There were children and most of them, a lot of them, never recovered from OG3. Trying to make it their own incident, which later I'll tell you about where that comes from, but uh, and I can't tell you how many times, which it was hard to tell the reading I, you know what L1C is, remember? Oh yeah, and they are. You don't want to read, it's not your item. And when I was given to them they felt a relief. Most of them were back in shape when before they were coming in every two, three months to AO Because they were still disturbed ding, boom, boom and worse. They'd come in and don't know if it's them or the BTs. I had one OG sitting in front of me. He did not know. Now it was the movie he wanted to see or the BTs wanted to see it. I mean, he was. They had lost all sense of himself.

Speaker 4 1:24:10

And the power of himself.

Speaker 2 1:24:12

Because, remember, the power gave him beautiful things. They're clear. The OG3 ruined it. They now didn't know who was powerful.

Speaker 4 1:24:25

Because a lot of these OGs are. You know, they're babies.

Speaker 2 1:24:31

So, anyway, that was shocking to me. I did that for a month. What's the word? What's the word? You call it. We're not repairing it, you know.

Speaker 3 1:24:52

What's the word? You call it Rehabbing.

Speaker 2 1:24:54

Yeah, you know, just getting them back. They're all in a disillusioned stability point why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 1:25:05

Oh, here's why. See, when they're doing the grade, it's them. It's them answering the questions. They're always teaching about self-determination and teaching about it's your universe. So it's great. It gives them a point of reference. Right, they do power and they get the sort of their operational code on how they operate it. Then they do clear, and that being now is not reacting to all these items. And they're actually the most stable. I've ever seen them most clear. Then they do OT1. Do you want to know the story?

Speaker 3 1:25:48

behind OT1? Please fill me in.

Speaker 2 1:25:53

OT1 came out about on the ship. After Ron got the clearing, he cleared, he actually ordered it. All the people that do clear. They were, but they were so stable they weren't neurotically idolized to him. He noticed that they would not think whether they wanted to work all day and stuff. So you know you think about SB. He thought they're too fucking clear Because one of the things you do on a clear you would lose the items that Harvard has over you.

Speaker 4 1:26:43

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 1:26:44

You see that.

Speaker 3 1:26:45

Uh-huh so this false dedication on this. Well, you become self-determined, pan-determined as well. You're mad. Better than ever, right? So God bless him.

Speaker 2 1:26:57

Ron had achieved what he always wanted from the 50s, it was clear.

Speaker 4 1:27:03

You're just not reacting Right. He achieved it, but he lost his people on the ship, uh-huh.

Speaker 2 1:27:14

So they were unstable. The original OP1 was nothing but having this process.

Speaker 3 1:27:21

Did you know that? Well, the one that we have is basically, basically, it's an objective process, 13 different steps, where you go out and you observe people in the environment, things like that. Yeah, notice them walking on the ground. Yeah, that was to solve Ron's problem with the clears. In what way?

Speaker 2 1:27:49

They were such a state of cleanness they wouldn't ferociously work day and night. They had lost their functionality. Yeah, and their fear of him, and because that'll lead to OD too. So he had lost the power over them. They all believed he could look at them and find their over. They believed that.

Speaker 3 1:28:26

Telepathically, they what Telepathically? Or just knowing perception.

Speaker 2 1:28:33

And he would build it, he would play. I know what you did. Go see the ethics officer right now. You better tell them the truth Because I know what you did and they would believe it. They'd go to the other's lover and say whatever they did, which could be staying up late or not Simple fucking thing. But they believed and I've talked to messengers and stuff and all worked with Ron, including Lloyd and Frank, they believed it that he could read their over. So OT.1 got him back, connected to the ship again, which is what he was trying to do. He was trying to make a human being back out of him.

Speaker 2 1:29:10

But the joke is that the human being with the frail things Because that's what he is on the ship, all right, that lasts only a few months and they're acting different he comes out with OT.2. Ot.2, he tells them you have whole track over it. And I don't know what OT is now, but this is the original OT and it was to uncover it and they all believed it. But two things happened. One, they go in and find their over this lifetime, other lifetime, blah, blah, blah. The other thing is they wow, ron knows us better than anybody, ron knows us whole track over it. Now they were all back being Ron's people again, which is an interesting thing to do. It's actually, when you look at it, very suppressive. It's very. He couldn't have pure clears on the ship, his staff.

Speaker 3 1:30:21

Right, because it would get in the way.

Speaker 2 1:30:22

Which will tell you why, years later, very few staff got personal auditing.

Speaker 3 1:30:27

Right, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:30:29

Because the auditing worked. What do you guys do with the AO? There it works. People actually get better.

Speaker 3 1:30:38

Right.

Speaker 2 1:30:38

Ron wanted dedicated, hardworking administrative staff. He didn't necessarily want him getting better, Meaning they're as powerful in life as he is. An interesting phenomenon.

Speaker 4 1:30:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:30:55

And do you know the OT 3 story.

Speaker 3 1:30:57

Oh well, I mean, I know the materials, but I don't know the back stories.

Speaker 2 1:31:05

What happened was he got very sick again, stomach trouble. Oh, what's her name? God, I don't even want to give a, just to give him a met up, All right. Anyway, he now thinks, being totally clean himself, that there might be PTSD on the crew. So he goes off to an island and the guy in town was one of the guys that went on this road boat, whatever it is, went on to a little island and did auditing on himself, Came back looking 10 years younger, looking healthy.

Speaker 2 1:31:58

See what he did is he ran self-dianetics, because that's his belief. He's always loved and believed in dianetics and he has a right to it, because most dianetics work. I've helped people with nils in life and dianetics. It's a very powerful thing. Anyway, he comes back to the ship and Otto Rus and all of them are gone. They're all in order. Ron being Ron, they're just saying that he had to say I just ran the most dangerous incident that's ever had, and then in a few days he's putting out it's an incident everybody has, but only I could face it, and this is believed by everybody.

Speaker 4 1:32:45

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 1:32:47

And what's the other tech guy? Who's the tech guy? He actually ordered a Ron a lot.

Speaker 3 1:32:56

David Mayo.

Speaker 2 1:32:58

Who.

Speaker 3 1:32:59

David Mayo.

Speaker 2 1:33:00

You got it, David Mayo. David Mayo wanted him then to write this up because Ron was playing Ron, as I have the most powerful ones that nobody in the world of fire or all that you know. He'd build it all up, David Mayo. God bless them, thinking everybody needs it. And the original write-up was by David Mayo, not by Allerich Of OT3. Allerich.

Speaker 3 1:33:32

What Of OT3. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:33:35

The wording of the opening. You know the opening scenario that's. Allerich, but the running of it was devised by David Mayo, of running the Bee Gees and finding out how to find them and all that. He knew how to make it workable. Anyway, that's the story behind it. You know, even Quentin said to me, said to me that he's living that lie. What's the lie? I, like everybody, believe we all had Ron's incident, ron's case. Quentin had the cognition that all the tech is Ron's case.

Speaker 3 1:34:26

Yeah, I've heard that before.

Speaker 2 1:34:28

Yeah, and we are just keeping up with it. And that because Quentin I felt Quentin loved the tech. He loved it was something that he was great at. By the way, I've felt people have been ordered by him. He was superb because he had the quality of the tech and the super-safeness as a being which I think makes the great order. Whether it's Frankie Friedman or Laura or probably you, it's your beingness that makes it work, it's not the tech working.

Speaker 3 1:35:07

Sure the amount of ARC in the session.

Speaker 2 1:35:10

You got it. You got it and I can feel some of that talking to you on the phone. You're the type of guy who can actually make Ron's stuff work.

Speaker 3 1:35:22

Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 1:35:26

Just like you said. Thank you. There you can have that thing Anyway, four or five years. But Ron himself was not interested in the OT level, as, operating fate and level there were, they would put there to solve the problems brought about by his phenomenal creation of the clearing materials. Now think of your question you asked me 20 minutes ago Did he turn SP when he got older? No, no, he just become visible.

Speaker 3 1:36:11

Right he was looking for solutions to his own self-created problems of control and management.

Speaker 2 1:36:20

And John, I don't say this out of disrespect. I actually, as a person, I love and respect Ron. I just know he has a case where all the others are all thinking he's Superman.

Speaker 3 1:36:32

Right.

Speaker 2 1:36:34

And I wish the fuck I could have ordered him.

Speaker 4 1:36:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:36:38

But the joke is now think about SP. I don't know, because I've had others say to me they know I'm a good auditor. I would say but I don't know if LRH would allow me to do that.

Speaker 4 1:36:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:36:55

All these tough cases he tells you about, he's telling you about himself.

Speaker 3 1:37:00

Yeah, well, he got into in 71, with research into expanded dianetics. He was really really, really focused on these SP-type personality cases and studies into OCA's and how the OCA's improved and all of that. And then that led to the L rundowns and almost entirely the use of LNN and the L's get really really huge results with listing and knowing.

Speaker 2 1:37:39

Yeah, if people have any guilt or stuff, it works. Yeah, I was the second class 8 XDN auditor in the United States.

Speaker 3 1:37:55

Then you obviously know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 1:37:57

Yeah, and I did it at ASHO. Remember ASHO on Temple? Yeah, I did it at ASHO and then I became an XDNCS. But again I saw wrong. Just he's so into people's overwits and that you have to get rid of the bad to become good.

Speaker 3 1:38:28

So do you think he was looking through that lens of seeing people, through his own overts and case in that particular band?

Speaker 2 1:38:40

Always. If you listen to his lectures, you'll hear his case.

Speaker 4 1:38:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:38:45

In fact, listen to the lectures again, you'll hear these. The jokes aren't funny, they're put downs and the audience likes it. Yeah, yeah I can see that.

Speaker 2 1:38:59

Listen to him again, there's a little bit of nastiness and you can actually see him. He goes into that bailout, he goes into opening, then he goes into usually good amount of tech, then he slips into His voice changes and he goes into this nasty balance. We're superior than the damn Because we have the answers. We know what they're doing. You know, in all this, I thought but an amazing man. I am glad to have met him. I am glad to have gotten hold of his stuff. I still haven't here at the house. He's made me wealthy. So fuck, as I would say to Frankie Freeman and others. Hey, there's a little allureation. All of us and I've taught us stuff to the lawyers. I had to change a bit so that it's not strictly Scientology. I've seen organizations change. I've seen people change. They take it as gold. You and I, as class 8, take it as every day. It is gold to them.

Speaker 3 1:40:18

Yeah, yeah, we take it for granted.

Speaker 2 1:40:20

I tell a lawyer yeah, when a client just acknowledges Well, how do you know? You know how to do it. No, it doesn't mean you agree, it just means you heard and understood it and I hadn't practiced it and fucking clients would love it Because these lawyers didn't know how to talk to people, which is the big. What's your answer to this question, John? You've been around in a long time. We had more tech on handling people, appreciating people, loving people, handling people and yet end up in the fucking mess we're in. Why?

Speaker 3 1:41:07

Why? Well, I could give you a glossy cover answer and say that no, give me your real answer.

Speaker 2 1:41:19

You're too bright not to have thought about this. Well, don't give me something you would say to your people at AO. Tell me, as one old time or two another how did we end up in this mess? Because a guy like Muscavige could not have been there by accident.

Speaker 3 1:41:43

Oh well, it's simple. It's an inability to confront.

Speaker 2 1:41:48

Inability to watch Confront.

Speaker 3 1:41:52

Either way, confront watch, an inability to confront their own case, or evil. I would say evil first.

Speaker 2 1:41:59

Well, that's a good, yeah, that's a good.

Speaker 3 1:42:04

In themselves or others.

Speaker 3 1:42:07

Either way, either one of the flows, you do them, or them to you, others to others, and then ultimately, I don't know, I don't know that flow zero them to themselves. And then there's the flows that are on the Ls as well, but the primary ones are the four biggies that I just mentioned. But I really think that that is. It. Is that how in the world could this possibly be? And then you discount it or you justify it and you look the other way, or you've got your own over. It's that stamp out your ability to confront evil. Or I mean LH even said he says even I have a hard time confronting evil. Well, there you go, right, there he's got it, it's in writing. He says that I have a hard time confronting evil too. It's in any easy. So ultimately, that was that was copied, that the valence was copied, that he had, and he set the example. And in so setting the example, so went the organization. That has always been my feeling.

Speaker 2 1:43:16

No, I think you're right, but you see that another way. You know, why doesn't the Catholic say let me crucify God? I wasn't even there, I am no part of it. Right, they accept their link to badness, right.

Speaker 3 1:43:29

Right, they make it OK in so doing, and then they become culpable.

Speaker 2 1:43:35

Yeah, they're always trying to prove they're not bad.

Speaker 4 1:43:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:43:42

It's an interesting humbleness. That's wonderful, but it's like I said, they wouldn't be able to run a canister Right. To run a canister you've got to be ruthless at times.

Speaker 3 1:43:54

Yeah, there's very few people that can really own up to their own doings. That's just what I see. I mean, ron says one out of 18 people is actually has the potential to be an executive One out of 18. And I think that that's probably pretty accurate, you know.

Speaker 2 1:44:19

I would say he's actually being nice.

Speaker 3 1:44:21

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:44:23

I've run two casinos. I'd say one out of 50 could be a fucking executive yeah.

Speaker 3 1:44:29

I've always thought that it's probably a lot higher than that. But he's probably taking into consideration the tech that he already had and how he could straighten people out who otherwise maybe have been borderline, where something like TR0 through 4 can change a person utterly. And it's probably the pro TRs course which I did at Flag probably was the best course I've ever done in Scientology to date in getting people to actually just be there and be comfortable. But it all comes well. He's got that reference. It says the world begins with TR0. It's true, I agree, that's where it begins and that's where it ends.

Speaker 3 1:45:19

And if you don't hit home with somebody like that right away, they're not going to make it because that's it. It's the matter of confront, whether it's whole track confront whether it's problem confront whether it's being an executive, confront whether it's. And then I'll tell you this if somebody said to me and I've actually answered this, they have if somebody said to me, where did LRH go wrong? If there was any critical point that he failed at, where did he go wrong the most? And it comes down to science and survival and plotting people out on the tone scale and where they were really at, not their social but their chronic tone level. That is where he failed with his communicators, with Ms Kavage, with all of these people that he settled for, people that he shouldn't have settled for. He went into agreement with their behaviors and then that was it, and that's all she wrote.

Speaker 2 1:46:22

Yeah, when you say the question which I hear a lot where did he go wrong? It sounds to me like you guys are all asking where did he go wrong in Scientology? And that's not where it started.

Speaker 3 1:46:36

No, no, it was the first dynamic thing.

Speaker 2 1:46:42

Absolutely. This is an unusual young man, even as a writer and stuff and things he dealt with. No, he's see, they're trying. People ask me that they're almost like where did this great man go wrong? First thing, he was never a great man, he was just a good man trying to make the hustle work and he was brilliant at it. Yeah, but they all think it's in Scientology. It didn't. You've got to realize. This guy writes a book, you know, 1950, dynat. It's now a bestseller. Do you realize what it is for him? He's a writer, it's a big deal.

Speaker 2 1:47:30

For him to be number one. He's achieved stardom and couldn't handle it.

Speaker 3 1:47:38

Yeah, well, I mean you look at what happened in Wichita. Yes, that's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 1:47:44

Yeah, and he knows it's Dr Winter and the other guy, he mishandled his own people.

Speaker 3 1:47:50

Yeah, he fumbled the ball, lost the rights and said, well, fuck, I'll just do it again and started coming up with a different angle on the whole thing and created Scientology and then eventually got the rights back to Dianetics. Right, I've cognated on that a couple of years ago and I was like, oh fuck, I get it now.

Speaker 2 1:48:10

Yeah, you know, here he is the bestselling author, can't even get along with the people next to him.

Speaker 4 1:48:18

Right.

Speaker 2 1:48:20

They vote him out of his own organization. Yeah, so none of this started in Scientology? I mean, it's just. And then he writes letters to the FBI saying they're all communists. Did you know that?

Speaker 3 1:48:36

Yeah, I've heard that yeah.

Speaker 2 1:48:39

I have some copies of the I have. Did you know? I have a copy here? I don't know because I've been out of this arena for so long. I have a copy of the letter of him asking for psychiatric treatment.

Speaker 3 1:48:58

And what year was that?

Speaker 2 1:49:01

I have to look at it. I just got all the stuff out the other day. This would be it. He comes out of the Navy. He's actually put it Old Go Hospital, which is psychiatric ward. How do I tell Scientologists that your A-C exercise comes from what he soared at Old Go Hospital? That's what they would do with patients Walk them to this wall, walk them back, turn around. But he looked at it as OK, this will get me strong. But you know how do you tell Scientologists, because they think this is all superhuman no, he got it from Old Go Hospital Anyway, while he's there, which he was sent by the Navy. There he asked for psychiatric treatment I have a copy of the letter and got turned down. They thought and this is interesting, they thought he was actually faking it. There's a name for it, a medical name for it that he's actually saying he's sick and he's not.

Speaker 3 1:50:11

Goldbreaking. What Goldbreaking? You know he's a goldbreaker.

Speaker 2 1:50:17

No, yeah, that's what we did. There's a medical name for it. That's how he got off the ship, by the way. So he got off the ship for having these ailments.

Speaker 4 1:50:28

Right too, it's almost like a Section 8.

Speaker 2 1:50:31

That's what they thought they had on their hands.

Speaker 3 1:50:33

Right.

Speaker 2 1:50:34

Then when they realized he used to spend time watching the people walk these people through the walls and he was taking notes on all this. So that's where the famous line comes out, that's in his for years, when they put him out saying he has no psychological disease of any kind. Because then he puts that in his my purpose, you know, and stuff. He's right, but they did it to get him out of the hospital.

Speaker 3 1:51:09

Move on.

Speaker 2 1:51:10

Yeah, he was sent there because you know he turned the cannons or whatever you call on the ship, on the submarines that turned out to be logs.

Speaker 3 1:51:27

So he could have been a better seaman then.

Speaker 2 1:51:32

Yeah, he failed at it, which is what Joe Quentin said, which is why he's trying to be the most powerful officer on the planet. So he's caught up in all the stuff that he's giving the Scientologists to do. Interesting but his research, especially through the briefing course, his research through the 60s at St Hill into problems upset. He's the first man to ever notice the difference between a problem and an upset, the first to do it, and I've made a ton of money using it ever since.

Speaker 4 1:52:10

Right.

Speaker 2 1:52:11

He is brilliant. Brilliant and a concept of withholds by itself are brilliant. His tapes on problems are among the most brilliant things technically ever written, because he admits all the problems he has there and I say, where is that as honest, Coming before the group and trying to figure it out. It's not secret, he's talking to the people. The honesty of it is just wonderful.

Speaker 3 1:52:46

Yeah, yeah, it's transparent.

Speaker 2 1:52:52

What do you think as a practitioner class A? What do you think has been the most valuable, remarkable tool for all the people? What process, what grade, what level have you felt has done the most for all the people you've handled?

Speaker 3 1:53:16

Wow there what I'm trying to think. There's different things with different situations, with different people, different OCA graphs and stuff like that. But I'll be perfectly honest with you. To go back to what you said about what you did with the girl who was beside herself and she had a kid and all of that, and this is probably eneclamactic it all comes back to two-way communication. The things I can do with two-way communication, based off of all the other understandings that I have.

Speaker 2 1:54:03

Beautiful. I love what you just said.

Speaker 3 1:54:07

It's as simple as that. I don't need a meter. All I need is TRs and some time to talk to the person, and I can resolve almost any issue that they have that's going on, or at least get it going and get them on some sort of a plan, destimulate them and make them feel like there's hope and that there's future. And if I continue that two-way com with them, I can handle it. The meter is great to have defined areas to run and all of that stuff, but I have been given the gift of GAB originally, and Scientology made it far more than a gift.

Speaker 2 1:54:51

I love what you're saying. I've trained a few auditors. Now they do life coaching.

Speaker 3 1:54:57

Yeah, that's how we present ourselves in modern day, to avoid the S-word.

Speaker 2 1:55:04

And I was talking to Ken A'Jane. He's a world champion poker player. He now makes a living coaching and he always said to me he said, before we went into this isolation, we had dinner at our own garden. He said, Eddie, you've said it for many years, with all the people I work with, with all the process, you told me about nothing matches good two-way com.

Speaker 4 1:55:31

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:55:33

He said holy shit, eddie, there's a science to it. If I know how to get them smiling when they leave, I know how to open them up when they start. Eddie, because they use that. What do you think is the most powerful? I said well, I told you. I said the real pros know it's all about what LRH knew. If you look at the original Dianetic sessions that he gave, it's fucking brilliant to wake up. A lot of bullshit, a lot of you know.

Speaker 4 1:56:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:56:09

He had a flare. Your ability to talk is what makes you the great guy you are. Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:56:18

And, like you said, on the ProTRs course, there's four or five different tapes that are pulled from the briefing course. One of them is fishing and fumbling, checking a dirty needle, and even at the time that I was trained in the in 88, they were already. Well, this is how LRH did it, but we want you to do it this way. And I thought, well, those are two totally different classes of things. Why would I do what you tell me that I should do when I don't see any evidence of this from the old man?

Speaker 3 1:56:58

But I see, I see this in a tape that's a little over 20 years old that you're having me listen to, and I get his ARC. I get that he's not evaluating, I get that he's not invalidating auditors. Code is in and he gets to the bottom of this thing, just using the meter as sort of like a little bit of a metal detector to find that area. And you know his acknowledgments, his, you know all right sort of thing, and you're like, oh, I get it, I get how this has to be done, sort of a thing, and that that that was the first major course I did in Scientology and I was 19 years old when I did it.

Speaker 2 1:57:37

Wow, the comp course is so interesting. It's probably the course that has less significance and more mass and gets the best results.

Speaker 3 1:57:49

Yeah, yeah, it's really just about doing this and just you have you my cognition and I realized Pro-TRs came after you. We have a actually have a podcast. It's an audio interview with a fellow by the name of Mark Schreffler and he he became a real big power broker in Scientology in the 80s because he developed two different organizations that pulled in doctors and dentists and chiropractors by the thousands into the church and caused the the second big boom in Scientology. Yeah, and Mark had the privilege to be at Flagg and Clearwater on the Pro-TRs pilot that LRH was doing there and he had back and forth communication with LRH on the Pro-TRs pilot. It's a great interview. It's our best podcast to date as far as the number of people that listen to it, because you really get a feel for what LRH was looking for and trying to get people to duplicate.

Speaker 2 1:58:58

Is that? Let me take this down. Is that, is that on your site, on your, your website?

Speaker 3 1:59:05

Yeah, if you, if you click on our website and you go to podcasts podcasts, okay and you click on the the area where that you see the Apple computer symbol, that will take you to iTunes and you want to listen to the first interview, number one interview with Mark Schreffler on the about LRH working with LRH. Mark Mark, that is by the last name, schreffler S-H-R-E-F-F-L-E-R. Schreffler I'll look at that because yeah.

Speaker 2 1:59:46

Because I I when I taught, I changed it for my own safety, but when I taught it to lawyers and stuff the TRs and acknowledgment, it changed their life.

Speaker 4 2:00:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:00:03

They had no idea what they'd say to me. Well, the client says this. I said I don't know what he says, no, but I don't know what to say. And when I told him that, and the idea of confront, just the idea of sitting there looking at them, they they first think it's weird, then they realize it's amazing.

Speaker 3 2:00:29

Yeah, it for me what it was is.

Speaker 3 2:00:33

It was sort of like if you had a circle or a clock and you were at at at high noon and you came around and you started to realize that there were certain things that you had been patterned to do, either by you know, the people that raised you, or people you'd been around in your, your formative years and you had this comm cycle and you start to delete these things and you keep deleting them and then you round about six o'clock, you start to realize the appropriate ways that you should do this and that you have to have presence.

Speaker 3 2:01:04

You have to have, you have to be in present time and you have to be listening and duplicating what the person says. Duplication comes around about six, six or seven o'clock and by the time you get to nine you really start thinking, well, all right, I think I can do this. And then it's about just being there and being comfortable and ready for whatever it is that they say and having an answer on deck that is appropriate for that that particular person or PC, and in in you come full circle and you're like, well, wow, it's, it's the same thing I was doing, with just these minor modifications and then, once you've got it, you've got it yeah.

Speaker 2 2:01:44

It's, it's, uh, when I teach it to the lawyers it's astounding. Uh, the results, Uh, and that's, you know it's, it's a joke. I said with Frankie and this guy in town that, uh, it's weird. Elrich shows us how to do it in the beginning. He does it his way. We all want to do that. And I said and some of a bitch uses us class thing to go to this thing called standard tech and stop everybody from doing it his way. Interesting.

Speaker 3 2:02:31

It is. It is interesting. I was very disappointed with the classic course. Uh, because it was basically, it was basically a review course for me.

Speaker 2 2:02:42

Right.

Speaker 3 2:02:43

There wasn't any new material on there.

Speaker 2 2:02:47

And the guy teaching it. You know, uh, my, my great Elrich, he's angry and he's he's blaming people. I'm thinking this is what made Class eight.

Speaker 3 2:03:02

Right. Well, and you, you see that modern day, I've seen a lot of the, the class eights that that uh have been made from like even the late, late eighties, especially into the nineties. Um, they're very unarc, full, very uh it's the word I'm looking for they're very accusative, they don't grant grant beingness and I'm I just I could never think with that and I thought this is not what I know. Why in the world do these people behave this way? Because it's very much a mind determinism not yours and, uh, very dogmatic, the dogmatic thing especially. And then when I did it, the class eight course, I listened to these lectures and I think this is a guy under PT stress, a tremendous amount of PT stress. He's got bypass charge out the ass. Why isn't anybody handling him on this? And then I thought, oh well, wait, nobody could handle him on it because he wouldn't let them handle him on it.

Speaker 2 2:04:03

That's exactly right. Uh, I heard David Mayo tried to handle him in session and it sounds like the question you asked me 20 minutes ago. He would not let it happen.

Speaker 3 2:04:22

So he wasn't in session.

Speaker 2 2:04:24

That's right, he's not in session. Ron is an interesting guy, brilliant on one side, suppressive on another, courageous on one side, in total fear on another. He has all these dichotomies, which is interesting. He gives us eight class eight to use dichotomies to handle people Right and I. I used to play with the dichotomies. I write them down because between you and me I use dichotomies. In my two-way class we call them.

Speaker 3 2:04:58

Yeah, sure, I mean, I loved it. Yeah, it's almost a, isn't it obvious, sort of thing that you, you would, you would have to do that in order to get the proper result. You have to, you have to have a conceptual understanding of that in order to do anything for anybody.

Speaker 2 2:05:15

It was brilliant. Yeah, because you know I I'd get talking about their mother, where, where, where. After, after it flattens a bit, I go oh yeah, so what is it? Tell me, what is it you like about her? You'd be shocked. You tell me how much he hates her. No, tell me something, anything. I mean I'm running this little mini process on him for the next five minutes, disguised as a two-way cop, but it gave me. It gave me and here's the important it got him to say things to himself he never would have said.

Speaker 3 2:05:55

Yeah, yeah. Well, I want you get people's guard down by getting in a really good two-way com with them to where you can get to the crux of the matter.

Speaker 2 2:06:07

Yeah, and you got to get to the other side, the side they're giving yours. All alter is Right. I listen to the 10 or 20 minutes of that or some idiots I might listen to a week. Then I go to the other side and that's where the goal is. Yeah, and then, when he started, talked about it and knew it.

Speaker 4 2:06:28

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:06:32

My joke between you and me is I still love LRH for the hustler. It's when it became standard. We were all in trouble.

Speaker 3 2:06:42

Yeah, yeah, well, that's when it became. Wrote. Wrote.

Speaker 2 2:06:48

That's the word, good word, that's the road. I came off the class A course. What's her name? The class A supervisor had a daughter. What's her name? She used to work with Elevation. I said what's her name? I said you want me to be a robot man? That's why I didn't like R3R when it first came out. It's just too. I used to say to law. I wrote let me change it. No, we can't. And then I'd listen to her tapes and she didn't do the R3R. She used that format, but she worked like LRA. Well, tell me when you think you were there. What were you there?

Speaker 3 2:07:36

Right. Right, I mean it doesn't have to be verbatim. I mean there's several different ways to ask. You know, would you like to go to dinner tonight? It isn't just would you like to go to dinner tonight. You've got it and you can get the same result. It's the concept that you're trying to get across and I've seen that before, that you know. Maybe I, I don't know, I just felt a little working outside of the box that day, but I would ask the command a little slightly differently, depending on the glasses, that the person meaning their tone level as an analog, what their tone level was and how they were going to take it based off of where they were at on the chart of human evaluation and ultimately, their tone level, and it worked better than the original question did.

Speaker 2 2:08:24

Yeah, I agree, john. I want to start ending off here. Sure, sure. I appreciate your time, I appreciate your command, I got to say, but I want to end with this this is great talking to you. I've enjoyed it, be it personally, it makes me feel there are some great Scientologists out there. Ron, you haven't failed. You haven't you tried to fail, but there are guys like you that you are the best of what Scientologists are trying to do.

Speaker 3 2:09:00

I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 2:09:01

So I enjoyed talking to you, buddy, you are. You are what A great Scientologist who's intelligent and grants being, as it's all about, well thank you. I'm just so happy not talking to all you guys for years. Man, they're awesome, great guys. Do you remember Clay Primrose?

Speaker 3 2:09:22

I do not.

Speaker 2 2:09:23

Yeah, he had a center up there in Southern California. He was like the way you are Very reasonable and smart, You're using Scientology to better people. You're not. You're not submissive to it.

Speaker 4 2:09:38

Right.

Speaker 2 2:09:41

Well done, John. It's been a pleasure talking to you. It makes me feel better about all the things I've done.

Speaker 3 2:09:49

Well, I appreciate the track on it and the data, and it helps put all of the pieces together, honestly gives me a little bit more stability on the subject. At large, people like you are few and far between these days, so I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and I'll be in touch. I'll probably come out and visit you sometime over the summer.

Speaker 2 2:10:11

Fantastic. If you do, I would love to meet you.